Re: Origin of the term i18n
At 10:25 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, you wrote: Hmmph. It was a mildly interesting question at first, and it wouldn't have been too bad to see six or eight responses, but by my count we are up to 52 messages in this thread. (53, counting this one.) The participants have either fallen into a religious debate over which group or individual first came up with the idea -- as if that could ever be proved conclusively -- or have started a fad of coining silly new I don't see it as a religious debate or even a debate at all - after all, the conclusion was for all intents and purposes on my web site already. What is more interesting to me is an exploration of the history of internationalization now that we have more or less settled when i18n was coined. The history is goes through a period of hand wringing about what to even call what we now know as internationalization and localization. It wasn't always so clear cut - I made some calls to people I know who aren't in this community anymore but who were long ago who might provide some insight. I have an article written for me last week by the source in my article last week at my request covering some of the history - further back than we have covered in this thread. I intend to post is ASAP on i18n.com except I had a server crash over the weekend. Hopefully that will be fixed in the morning and I can get the article to you. There is an interesting twist in the story about why, at that time and place, internationalization itself was not sufficient as Mark suggested and it is persuasive to me. Then I intend to raise the question of those who were around longer than me of just how far back does the idea of internationalization actually go and when was that term first used. To me, the two holy grails of computer science from day one have been good chess playing programs and machine translation. So at least back into he mid 1950s there was a need for multilingual computing of some type. I am sure there was a lot of roll your own techniques for a good long time. When did these techniques get a name at all, and what was the name and definition? Was it something other than internationalization? If so how did it morph to what we know now? when did localization come into it? These are important historical questions and I think wholly appropriate for this list. You won't see *this* happen every day, but I'm in almost total agreement with Mark Davis. Some of these number-based abbreviations may be useful at times, but for the most part they're like emoticons -- overuse them, or cross the line inventing new ones, and they immediately become trite and cutesy. One of the signs of a mature specialty is a set of jargon and a set of inside humor. To me, l10n and i18n are the only ones we should use everyday. I respectfully disagree about g11n. The rest may be overdoing it a bit but I see the point if they express a concept of i18n/l10n as applied to a specific region or locale beyond the word spelled out itself. that is the power of jargon and branding both. It has nil to do with Unicode. My research over the last week indicates that the origins of Unicode are very definitely of the same era and from the same community of the people who brought the idea of internationalization to a critical mass, and coined the term i18n. One has not been separable from the other since at least 1989. I can do all that, if it would help kill this thread. Personally I would love to see it all end up being moved to i18n.com. There has been a fair amount of off-list discussion going on, btw. Barry Caplan www.i18n.com
Re: Origin of the term i18n
Barry Caplan bcaplan at i18n dot com wrote: My research over the last week indicates that the origins of Unicode are very definitely of the same era and from the same community of the people who brought the idea of internationalization to a critical mass, and coined the term i18n. One has not been separable from the other since at least 1989. Just to make sure everyone is clear on this: I am not arguing against the concept of internationalization, or even against occasional use of the abbreviation i18n. I use it myself sometimes, just as I use smileys sometimes. What I am arguing against is going hog-wild making up new obscure abbreviations from the same template, and clogging the Unicode list with them. Anything beyond i18n and l10n is tantamount to the man with glasses smoking a cigar and drooling type of smiley. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California
Re: Origin of the term i18n
At 12:37 AM 10/15/2002 -0700, Doug Ewell wrote: Barry Caplan bcaplan at i18n dot com wrote: What I am arguing against is going hog-wild making up new obscure abbreviations from the same template, and clogging the Unicode list with them. Anything beyond i18n and l10n is tantamount to the man with glasses smoking a cigar and drooling type of smiley. Well, some were used in jest by correspondents who often engage in wordplay on list and off list truth be told. But I pointed out that the scheme is a meme picking up steam, and not just in software. I didn't make up a12n, even though I hadn't seen it used before. I also didn't make up c17g or m17n. I provided evidence of my claims that this is spreading by pointers to the sites. The only reason I did that is because someone (Mark I think but I could be wrong) objected the entire abbreviation scheme. the point is it is not going away and it will probably be used more and more in different types of places. It occurred to me the other day, I haven't had a chance to check this and maybe someone else will, that all 4 character domain names under dot com domain, which means there may be a lot more sites of the form xdx.com or xddx.com. Barry Caplan www.i18n.com
Re: Origin of the term i18n
Raymond Mercier asked: Isn't i18n rather off-list ? Neither Sarasvati nor the self-styled list police have objected. While historical origin discussions are OT, they do seem to have an interested following on the Unicode list. Perhaps more to the point, Unicode implementations are all about i18n (or internationalization -- however you want to spell it). And the UTC and L2 committees consider internationalization to be a part of their overall area of concern. And the Unicode conferences definitely cover internationalization issues -- and even some of the details of localization. Is this the same list where people objected to the endless arguments with William Overington ? Yep. But at least nobody on this thread -- to date -- has claimed a new invention, proposed to encode i18n in user space, or proposed lyrics about it to be posted in their family webspace. --Ken ;-)
Re: Origin of the term i18n
At 11:56 -0700 2002-10-14, Kenneth Whistler wrote: Yep. But at least nobody on this thread -- to date -- has claimed a new invention, proposed to encode i18n in user space, or proposed lyrics about it to be posted in their family webspace. Well, obviously i18n should be encoded along with the other squared Latin abbreviations. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com 48B Gleann na Carraige; Cill Fhionntain; Baile Átha Cliath 13; Éire Telephone +353 86 807 9169 * * Fax +353 1 832 2189 (by arrangement)
Re: Origin of the term i18n
K5h W6r (hey, you're not cool any more unless you do that) wrote: Isn't i18n rather off-list ? Neither Sarasvati nor the self-styled list police have objected. While historical origin discussions are OT, they do seem to have an interested following on the Unicode list. Hmmph. It was a mildly interesting question at first, and it wouldn't have been too bad to see six or eight responses, but by my count we are up to 52 messages in this thread. (53, counting this one.) The participants have either fallen into a religious debate over which group or individual first came up with the idea -- as if that could ever be proved conclusively -- or have started a fad of coining silly new abbreviations (sorry, a10n's), with i18nGuy and Mr. i18n.com leading the charge. I'm sorry, but compared to this, the discussions we used to have over fictional and experimental UTF's were monumentally relevant and on-topic. You won't see *this* happen every day, but I'm in almost total agreement with Mark Davis. Some of these number-based abbreviations may be useful at times, but for the most part they're like emoticons -- overuse them, or cross the line inventing new ones, and they immediately become trite and cutesy. Perhaps more to the point, Unicode implementations are all about i18n (or internationalization -- however you want to spell it). And the UTC and L2 committees consider internationalization to be a part of their overall area of concern. And the Unicode conferences definitely cover internationalization issues -- and even some of the details of localization. Yes, but using that to justify the i18n thread is like saying we should have a 52-message thread over the words that can be formed by rearranging the letters of internationalization or localization. It has nil to do with Unicode. Is this the same list where people objected to the endless arguments with William Overington ? Yep. But at least nobody on this thread -- to date -- has claimed a new invention, proposed to encode i18n in user space, or proposed lyrics about it to be posted in their family webspace. I can do all that, if it would help kill this thread. Michael Everson everson at evertype dot com responded: Well, obviously i18n should be encoded along with the other squared Latin abbreviations. Problem is, we're already (as of 4.0) out of space in the U+33xx block, and almost out of space in U+32xx. These squared thingies are even starting to spill over into U+21xx. No, I was thinking more along the lines of special Plane 14 tags for abbreviations -Doug Ewell, Curmudgeon (no, I'm not going to do it; *you* count the letters)
Re: Origin of the term i18n
Isn't i18n rather off-list ? Is this the same list where people objected to the endless arguments with William Overington ? Raymond Mercier
Re: Origin of the term i18n
I am thankful that these short forms exist, as I must use them a lot in my work where space is priceless: charts, tables, project plans, etc. Not only does it save a lot of time (especially now where I can type only with 1.5 hands - broken thumb) but it looks more neat in overall documentation. I agree, in a text or book I would not necessarily use them if I wasn't sure who the readers are and what their level of knowledge in our area is. Definitely better than InTeRn@i*nAlIʒ@i*n which OE automatically identifies as an email address ... Dave - Original Message - From: Barry Caplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mark Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tex Texin [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Unicoders [EMAIL PROTECTED]; NE Localization SIG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:08 PM Subject: Re: Origin of the term i18n At 12:20 PM 10/11/2002 -0700, Mark Davis wrote: Mark, I am curious why you find this term so distasteful? Is it the algorithm itself or just a general objection to acronyms and the like? Or something else entirely? I find this particular way of forming abbreviations particularly ugly and obscure. I think it is a meme that is catching on and it serves various purposes more important than saving keystrokes: - these are important words that describe entire fields of study in many specialties - many of them (internationalization, globalization, e.g) are in the common vernacular, with vague denotations and possibly negative connotations in the general public - As such the words are seriously overloaded and confusing - Not only that, but they are spelled differently in various parts of the English speaking world, which affects indexing. - They are long and hard to spell for non-native speakers (and probably most US native speakers too) - They are toungue twisters for all, especially for some non-native English speakers - The overloading of definitions, even within scholarly fields, is calling out for a separation and branding (do a search on localization and see how many branches of science you get) - Long words really suck for design purposes. You would be limited to about 9 point type on your business card if anything other than your title included Internationalization --snip--
Re: Origin of the term i18n
I c u rn't up 2 date - we R there - check chat messenger - urgh D2e - Original Message - From: Kenneth Whistler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Origin of the term i18n Mark, Mark, I am curious why you find this term so distasteful? Is it the algorithm itself or just a general objection to acronyms and the like? Or something else entirely? I find this particular way of forming abbreviations particularly ugly and obscure. It is also usually unnecessary; looking at any of the messages brought up by Google, the percentage of 'saved' keystrokes is a very small proportion of the total count. And when it leaks out into the general programmer community, it just looks odd. For me, it is on the same order as using nite for night, or cpy for copy. u shuld just be glad u wont live to see the day when netspeak roolz and ur goofy language is rOxXoRed! --K1n
Re: Origin of the term i18n/top 10 list
Guys, Poor Mark was just expressing a preference, it hardly requires a debate. And he was right to correct my comment about numeronyming (can I make it a verb?) not being a trend. Probably creating them is a trend. Actually using them seems to be rare. (I have been doing a few more searches after Mark's mail. I am starting to wonder if search engines parse strings like i18n correctly or perhaps throw them away as uninteresting for search purposes.) However, if we must debate the value of i18n vs. internationalization, let's make it more interesting. For example, I will express my reasons for being the i18nguy instead of the internationalizationguy or the internationalizationmalehumanbeing or the intn'lguy as a top 10 list. (Would you abbreviate that acronymically as T10L or numeronymically as t10t now?) Here is: The I18nGuy's top ten list of reasons Tex chose to be I18nGuy: 10: Size- I18nGuy fits on a license plate, parking space, bus. card. 9: Accessibility- Even if Dave had broken both thumbs he still has enough digits left to count to 18. 8: Collation- It sorts ahead of L10nGuy 7: Uniqueness- Contractions like In'l'n means something else in Hawaiian. (Somebody tell me what it means.) 6: Secrecy- Brits and Ozzies can't tell from the spelling I am American! 5: Panache- It gives me an air of mystery! 4: G11n- In Turkey, there are only 2 spellings, with and without the dot on the i, instead of 16! (4 i's in i18n) 3: Style- I can order my drinks shaken, not stirred like that other numeronym: 007 2: Speed- Typing i18n instead of internationalization, get's me back to the bar faster... And the number one reason, I went with I18nGuy... 1: Dollars- Saving a fortune paying by the letter for personal ads seeking I18nDoll ;-) OK, I am going back to the bar... i18nguy David Possin wrote: I am thankful that these short forms exist, as I must use them a lot in my work where space is priceless: charts, tables, project plans, etc. Not only does it save a lot of time (especially now where I can type only with 1.5 hands - broken thumb) but it looks more neat in overall documentation. I agree, in a text or book I would not necessarily use them if I wasn't sure who the readers are and what their level of knowledge in our area is. Definitely better than InTeRni*nAlIʒi*n which OE automatically identifies as an email address ... Dave -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex;XenCraft.com Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
Origin of the term i18n
In an incredible feat of procrastination (p13n) for other things I should have been doing, I summarized and excerpted the thread on the origin of the term i18n and put it on my web site: http://www.i18nguy.com/origini18n.html tex -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
Re: Origin of the term i18n
Two c9ns. You write: Apparently, this approach to abbreviating long names was humorous and was generalized at DEC. The convention was applied to internationalization at DEC. Apparently it passed to Apple quickly. Both companies were using the term by 1985. There is a misunderstanding. Apple had used the term internationalization by 1985. It was not -- thank the gods -- using the a9n i18n. I don't know if they started using it after I left in the early 90's. The phrase was humorous should be changed to was intended to be humorous The terms Canonicalization and Normalization, defined more recently, also have numeronym forms (c14n and n11n), evidence of a trend now in the i18n community to define numeronyms for lengthy words ending in ization. Sorry to appear the curmudgeon, but I've never seen any but a relatively few people use this goofy form of abbreviation, and then for only a few of the words on your web page. A search for normalization and Unicode yields 32,800 enties on Google. A search for n11n yields 3. Not a trend. Mark __ http://www.macchiato.com ► “Eppur si muove” ◄ - Original Message - From: Tex Texin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Unicoders [EMAIL PROTECTED]; NE Localization SIG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 00:36 Subject: Origin of the term i18n In an incredible feat of procrastination (p13n) for other things I should have been doing, I summarized and excerpted the thread on the origin of the term i18n and put it on my web site: http://www.i18nguy.com/origini18n.html tex -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
Re: Origin of the term i18n
thanks Mark. I have made the fixes. A refreshed browser should show them. Seems to me I have seen a lot of mails with n11n when we were discussing it in Unicode. And although, 1/10,000 may not seem like a trend that's a single data point. Perhaps if you graphed its use over time? ;-) thanks very much for the c9ns. btw, All of the terms I identified as being used (Europeanization, Japanization, etc.) I have seen in print. The Europeanization one surprised me, but it was in an old DEC book that I scanned yesterday. I would agree the abbreviations are not heavily used and it is most likely jargon used in informal notes, email, etc. and probably source code, and not formal documentation. I am also going to add this note I just got from the research analysts at XenCraft: According to XenCraft, if the software industry were to exert its ability to influence the English language thru its control of message catalogs used in software thruout the world, numeronyms (n7ms) could replace words completely by the year 2016 (this is the year not numeronym). This would greatly reduce costs in the localization industry and increase the accuracy rate and universality of spell checkers. However, it would greatly increase repetitive stress injuries for the many still people counting characters on their fingers. Also, a great rift would occur within the Unicode consortium in the year 2009, as member companies are unable to agree as to whether ligatures count as one or two for the purpose of numeronyms. Finally the phone industry would move to a new keypad using 26 buttons for the entire english alphabet. This would be motivated by problems caused by numerical phone numbers representing numeronyms with unfortunate meanings for the owner of that number. The new english-coded phone ids would no longer spell anything in the numero-english of the year 2016. ;-) tex Mark Davis wrote: Two c9ns. You write: Apparently, this approach to abbreviating long names was humorous and was generalized at DEC. The convention was applied to internationalization at DEC. Apparently it passed to Apple quickly. Both companies were using the term by 1985. There is a misunderstanding. Apple had used the term internationalization by 1985. It was not -- thank the gods -- using the a9n i18n. I don't know if they started using it after I left in the early 90's. The phrase was humorous should be changed to was intended to be humorous The terms Canonicalization and Normalization, defined more recently, also have numeronym forms (c14n and n11n), evidence of a trend now in the i18n community to define numeronyms for lengthy words ending in ization. Sorry to appear the curmudgeon, but I've never seen any but a relatively few people use this goofy form of abbreviation, and then for only a few of the words on your web page. A search for normalization and Unicode yields 32,800 enties on Google. A search for n11n yields 3. Not a trend. Mark __ http://www.macchiato.com ► “Eppur si muove” ◄ - Original Message - From: Tex Texin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Unicoders [EMAIL PROTECTED]; NE Localization SIG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 00:36 Subject: Origin of the term i18n In an incredible feat of procrastination (p13n) for other things I should have been doing, I summarized and excerpted the thread on the origin of the term i18n and put it on my web site: http://www.i18nguy.com/origini18n.html tex -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World - -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
Re: Origin of the term i18n
At 11:11 AM 10/11/2002 -0700, Mark Davis wrote: Sorry to appear the curmudgeon, but I've never seen any but a relatively few people use this goofy form of abbreviation, and then for only a few of the words on your web page. A search for normalization and Unicode yields 32,800 enties on Google. A search for n11n yields 3. I have seen m17n come out of japan and I saw a similar term, algorithm misapplied in a totally unrelated context at http://www.christadelphian.org/MEMBERS/index.htm: Welcome to the inside of C17g. that's Christadelphian.org shortened - there are 17 characters between the C and the g of the name... it saves a lot of typing Not a trend. Not a trend but a meme Mark, I am curious why you find this term so distasteful? Is it the algorithm itself or just a general objection to acronyms and the like? Or something else entirely? Barry Caplan www.i18n.com
Re: Origin of the term i18n
Sorry to appear the curmudgeon, but ^^ recte: c8n --K1n
Re: [nelocsig] Re: Origin of the term i18n
At 02:49 PM 10/11/2002 -0400, Tex Texin wrote: According to XenCraft, if the software industry were to exert its ability to influence the English language thru its control of message catalogs used in software thruout the world, numeronyms (n7ms) could replace words completely by the year 2016 (this is the year not numeronym). The research analysts at i18n.com differ in their analysis. They assure me that the i18n.com developers can write a Apache module that would convert pages in encoded with characters from the traditional single byte encodings, such as the ISO-8859 series, to the new format in approximately 15 minutes. Any site that is on a server running Apache with mod_perl would then be automatically available in this format with no further intervention by the site's authors or owners. Planned follow on projects include forming a committee to extend precisely how the algorithm should apply to languages with more complex writing systems, creating a proxy server that browsers can use to convert pages from non-Apache servers, and adding support for various wireless browsers. Once proper funding is secured for the crack i18n.com development team, the conversion (c9n) and obsoletion (o8n) could literally be available overnight. Barry Caplan www.i18n.com
Re: Origin of the term i18n
Mark, I am curious why you find this term so distasteful? Is it the algorithm itself or just a general objection to acronyms and the like? Or something else entirely? I find this particular way of forming abbreviations particularly ugly and obscure. It is also usually unnecessary; looking at any of the messages brought up by Google, the percentage of 'saved' keystrokes is a very small proportion of the total count. And when it leaks out into the general programmer community, it just looks odd. For me, it is on the same order as using nite for night, or cpy for copy. Mark __ http://www.macchiato.com ► “Eppur si muove” ◄ - Original Message - From: Barry Caplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mark Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tex Texin [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Unicoders [EMAIL PROTECTED]; NE Localization SIG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 11:40 Subject: Re: Origin of the term i18n At 11:11 AM 10/11/2002 -0700, Mark Davis wrote: Sorry to appear the curmudgeon, but I've never seen any but a relatively few people use this goofy form of abbreviation, and then for only a few of the words on your web page. A search for normalization and Unicode yields 32,800 enties on Google. A search for n11n yields 3. I have seen m17n come out of japan and I saw a similar term, algorithm misapplied in a totally unrelated context at http://www.christadelphian.org/MEMBERS/index.htm: Welcome to the inside of C17g. that's Christadelphian.org shortened - there are 17 characters between the C and the g of the name... it saves a lot of typing Not a trend. Not a trend but a meme Mark, I am curious why you find this term so distasteful? Is it the algorithm itself or just a general objection to acronyms and the like? Or something else entirely? Barry Caplan www.i18n.com
Re: Origin of the term i18n
At 12:20 -0700 2002-10-11, Mark Davis wrote: I find this particular way of forming abbreviations particularly ugly and obscure. It is also usually unnecessary; looking at any of the messages brought up by Google, the percentage of 'saved' keystrokes is a very small proportion of the total count. And when it leaks out into the general programmer community, it just looks odd. For me, it is on the same order as using nite for night, or cpy for copy. I think it's annoying as well. As is the tendency to prefix e- to everything in sight. There's a shop in Dublin which does etail, apparently this is a reverse truncation of retail. Ugh. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com 48B Gleann na Carraige; Cill Fhionntain; Baile Átha Cliath 13; Éire Telephone +353 86 807 9169 * * Fax +353 1 832 2189 (by arrangement)
Re: Origin of the term i18n
At 12:20 PM 10/11/2002 -0700, Mark Davis wrote: Mark, I am curious why you find this term so distasteful? Is it the algorithm itself or just a general objection to acronyms and the like? Or something else entirely? I find this particular way of forming abbreviations particularly ugly and obscure. I think it is a meme that is catching on and it serves various purposes more important than saving keystrokes: - these are important words that describe entire fields of study in many specialties - many of them (internationalization, globalization, e.g) are in the common vernacular, with vague denotations and possibly negative connotations in the general public - As such the words are seriously overloaded and confusing - Not only that, but they are spelled differently in various parts of the English speaking world, which affects indexing. - They are long and hard to spell for non-native speakers (and probably most US native speakers too) - They are toungue twisters for all, especially for some non-native English speakers - The overloading of definitions, even within scholarly fields, is calling out for a separation and branding (do a search on localization and see how many branches of science you get) - Long words really suck for design purposes. You would be limited to about 9 point type on your business card if anything other than your title included Internationalization I am working on digging up some deeper history that might shed more light on how i18n was coined initially so stay tuned As for Apple using internationalization internally by 1985, that would be consistent with other evidence of the age of that term wrt (oops with respect to) computer software. But lets not hold Apple up as a company as a corporate bastion of clear terms. The public-facing entire corporate branding strategy since the 1984 release of the Mac has been to *not* use functional terms for products. This is just now beginning to change with iPhoto, etc. The strategy has always been anti-Microsoft in this regard, and Microsoft has always preferred generic terms wherever possible. So if Apple still does not use i18n in its docs then it is business as usual wrt to contrariness to Microsoft's approach but *not* business as usual wrt the rest of Apple's history. This is an interesting place for Apple to be (no pun intended) Barry Caplan www.i18n.com PS - I just checked on developer.i18n.com - it is indeed devoid of references to i18n save a couple of Java APIs and totally devoid of l10n. This must be a long-term enforced policy as Mark hinted - I'd love to speak to whoever came up with it - that it could stick for at least 17 years given the changes at Apple is pretty remarkable in itself!
Re: Origin of the term i18n
Mark, Mark, I am curious why you find this term so distasteful? Is it the algorithm itself or just a general objection to acronyms and the like? Or something else entirely? I find this particular way of forming abbreviations particularly ugly and obscure. It is also usually unnecessary; looking at any of the messages brought up by Google, the percentage of 'saved' keystrokes is a very small proportion of the total count. And when it leaks out into the general programmer community, it just looks odd. For me, it is on the same order as using nite for night, or cpy for copy. u shuld just be glad u wont live to see the day when netspeak roolz and ur goofy language is rOxXoRed! --K1n
Re: Origin of the term i18n
Kenneth Whistler wrote (in response to Mark Davis), u shuld just be glad u wont live to see the day when netspeak roolz and ur goofy language is rOxXoRed! Mark, best wishes for a very, very long life! Best regards, James Kass.
