Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
Scríobh "Michael \(michka\) Kaplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >I always assumed the lowercase "i" was either meant to be something similar >to devs but mean something like "information" to normal (i.e., >non-developer) types. Then, like any concept is has to be [over]used >everywhere. Maybe someone from Apple who has talked to their marketing folks >lately could comment > >MichKa I read that 'i' (in the Apple context) as meaning 'i(nternet ready)'. It is possible I could be wrong about that. Am I? mg -- Marion Gunn * EGT (Estab.1991) * http://www.egt.ie * fiosruithe/enquiries: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] *
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
At 11:41 +0100 2003-07-22, Marion Gunn wrote: I read that 'i' (in the Apple context) as meaning 'i(nternet ready)'. It is possible I could be wrong about that. Am I? Yes, you are. -- ME
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
Pim Blokland wrote: >> I'm not sure that even all English users appreciate the computer >> related jargon and acronyms that their geek developers want to >> force them to learn and use. > > Hm... Personally I feel just the opposite. I think the computer > industry has taken too many normal words and forced new meanings > upon them. Words like program, compiler, desktop, window, folder, > mouse, &c., all have been cast into new roles; all were once > unambiguous, but nowadays they need more clarification if their > meaning is not clear from the context. I suspect it's been centuries since "program" had only one unambiguous meaning. And I doubt many people are confused between the "compiler" of an encyclopedia or anthology and a high-level language "compiler." But hmm, "language"... there's a word whose overloading has certainly caused some confusion. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
- Original Message - From: "Philippe Verdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail' > On Monday, July 21, 2003 7:16 PM, Jon Hanna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > eBook, e-mail, eBay, e-money, and all that gunk. > > > I suppose we could do without them. Even Apple's > > > gone weird about it. I don't know what the "i" in > > > the iLifestyle suite (iChat, iPhoto, iBook, > > > iThis, iThat) means. > > > > e-jit, iDiot, iMbecile. > > Is it still a newgroup to discuss about the correct way to write a > language? I thought that Unicode members had more consideration > for the correct spelling and pronunciation of languages, and thought > it was important to preserve the cultural heritage and accuracy of > their transcription. Would Unicode turn into Unilang? Thanks then > we do not need Unicode to write English... Why not returning then > to the good old age of ISO646 (IA5)? I understand that you mean with "Unicode members" just everyone who subscribed to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list., and not e.g. only the people mentioned on http://www.unicode.org/consortium/memblogo.html . In that case you should be aware that the list is open to everyone. And even http://www.unicode.org/consortium/memblogo.html only guarantees that the member in question payed his dues. Yet I myself consider it very cool to be mentioned on one page together with Adobe, Microsoft, and the Government of Pakistan.
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
Scríobh "Michael \(michka\) Kaplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >I always assumed the lowercase "i" was either meant to be something similar >to devs but mean something like "information" to normal (i.e., >non-developer) types. Then, like any concept is has to be [over]used >everywhere. Maybe someone from Apple who has talked to their marketing folks >lately could comment > >MichKa I read that 'i' (in the Apple context) as meaning 'i(nternet ready)'. It is possible I could be wrong about that. Am I? mg -- Marion Gunn * EGT (Estab.1991) * http://www.egt.ie * fiosruithe/enquiries: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] *
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
Philippe Verdy schreef: > I'm not sure that even all English users appreciate the computer > related jargon and acronyms that their geek developers want to > force them to learn and use. Hm... Personally I feel just the opposite. I think the computer industry has taken too many normal words and forced new meanings upon them. Words like program, compiler, desktop, window, folder, mouse, &c., all have been cast into new roles; all were once unambiguous, but nowadays they need more clarification if their meaning is not clear from the context. So I don't mind new, ICT-specific words like email one bit! Pim Blokland
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
On Monday, July 21, 2003 7:16 PM, Jon Hanna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > eBook, e-mail, eBay, e-money, and all that gunk. > > I suppose we could do without them. Even Apple's > > gone weird about it. I don't know what the "i" in > > the iLifestyle suite (iChat, iPhoto, iBook, > > iThis, iThat) means. > > e-jit, iDiot, iMbecile. Is it still a newgroup to discuss about the correct way to write a language? I thought that Unicode members had more consideration for the correct spelling and pronunciation of languages, and thought it was important to preserve the cultural heritage and accuracy of their transcription. Would Unicode turn into Unilang? Thanks then we do not need Unicode to write English... Why not returning then to the good old age of ISO646 (IA5)? I'm not sure that even all English users appreciate the computer related jargon and acronyms that their geek developers want to force them to learn and use. Technical jargons exist in all humane activity, but when this technology is now widely spread to target "normal" users (even commercially) why such a word would have to ignore more general linguistic communities? You don't need to be a PhD in Computer Sciences to use a computer. Now the email technology is so common that it can merit a common name using the normal phonetic, orthographic, semantical, lexical or grammatic rules of a normal social language. -- Philippe. Spams non tolérés: tout message non sollicité sera rapporté à vos fournisseurs de services Internet.
RE: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
> eBook, e-mail, eBay, e-money, and all that gunk. > I suppose we could do without them. Even Apple's > gone weird about it. I don't know what the "i" in > the iLifestyle suite (iChat, iPhoto, iBook, > iThis, iThat) means. e-jit, iDiot, iMbecile.
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
From: "Michael Everson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I don't know what the "i" in > the iLifestyle suite (iChat, iPhoto, iBook, > iThis, iThat) means. For developers, a capital "I" usually means interface -- in code certainly but then often applied in life as only geeks can do. I have fond memories of not too many years ago, wandering around the Red Light district in Amsterdam with fellow developers Stephen Forte and Richard Campbell, discussing the important new "IToilet" interface that would revolutionize our interaction with commodes. Probably just the space cakes talking. Ah, to be young[er] again :-) I always assumed the lowercase "i" was either meant to be something similar to devs but mean something like "information" to normal (i.e., non-developer) types. Then, like any concept is has to be [over]used everywhere. Maybe someone from Apple who has talked to their marketing folks lately could comment MichKa
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
Michael Everson wrote on July 21, 2003 at 12:00 > *All* words must be traced to someone. They do not grow on trees. They do so: in computer data structures , at least! ;-) K
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
On 21/07/2003 09:00, Michael Everson wrote: At 10:59 -0400 2003-07-21, Patrick Andries wrote: - Message d'origine - De: "Michael Everson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 19:56 -0400 2003-07-20, Patrick Andries wrote: >Obviously, the AP has found someone to say it is artificial. Of course, all language is artificial. Well, at least all new words that can be traced to someone can be so « described ». *All* words must be traced to someone. They do not grow on trees. I also wonder if anybody in the US said to the inventor of email or any new word : this is artificial. It seems somewhat nonsensical or at least tautological for any newly coined word. eBook, e-mail, eBay, e-money, and all that gunk. I suppose we could do without them. Even Apple's gone weird about it. I don't know what the "i" in the iLifestyle suite (iChat, iPhoto, iBook, iThis, iThat) means. Perhaps we should coin another set of artificial uWords for anything uNicode compatible e.g. uMail, uPage, uFont... :-) -- Peter Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://web.onetel.net.uk/~peterkirk/
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
At 10:59 -0400 2003-07-21, Patrick Andries wrote: - Message d'origine - De: "Michael Everson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 19:56 -0400 2003-07-20, Patrick Andries wrote: >Obviously, the AP has found someone to say it is artificial. Of course, all language is artificial. Well, at least all new words that can be traced to someone can be so « described ». *All* words must be traced to someone. They do not grow on trees. I also wonder if anybody in the US said to the inventor of email or any new word : this is artificial. It seems somewhat nonsensical or at least tautological for any newly coined word. eBook, e-mail, eBay, e-money, and all that gunk. I suppose we could do without them. Even Apple's gone weird about it. I don't know what the "i" in the iLifestyle suite (iChat, iPhoto, iBook, iThis, iThat) means. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
- Message d'origine - De: "Michael Everson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > At 19:56 -0400 2003-07-20, Patrick Andries wrote: > > >Obviously, the AP has found someone to say it is artificial. > > Of course, all language is artificial. Well, at least all new words that can be traced to someone can be so « described ». But one has the impression that this accusation is most often heard in France (not in Québec), I also wonder if anybody in the US said to the inventor of email or any new word : this is artificial. It seems somewhat nonsensical or at least tautological for any newly coined word. P. A.
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
Philippe Verdy wrote on July 21, 2003 at 1:48 AM > This one decision of the official terminology group is not stupid: it adopts a term that is now spread among French and Canadian natives, Best avoid the phrase 'Canadian natives'. Even though it might theoretically embrace all of us who were born here, in actual practice it is effectively restricted to refer to aboriginal peoples. 'Native Canadian' is a better phrase; even better just drop the 'native' for our particular case. K
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
On Monday, July 21, 2003 2:01 AM, Michael Everson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 19:56 -0400 2003-07-20, Patrick Andries wrote:
>
> > Yahoo's title is obviously overblown ("sexed up" like the BBC says).
>
> And isn't *that* the meme of the moment. One idiot said it and it
> spread like a virus. Ick.
>
> > Obviously, the AP has found someone to say it is artificial.
>
> Of course, all language is artificial.
What was really artificial (and what Yahoo reported confusingly) was the preiously
adopted term "mél", which was opted by an official terminology group, without even
asking at the French Academy for its extremely "bizarre" orthograph:
- this was the single term using an accute accent before a vocalized ending
consonnant, and its prononciation was really unique, in an attempt to create a
specific orthograph from a slightly derived pronunciation of "mail", which would have
just been written "mel" without any accent using the normal French orthograph
- I will certainly not complain that the official terminology "mél" was abandonned:
everybody approves it in France, as it was really stupid. This is exactly the
artificial creation of "mél" which justified a reaction from native speakers to use
the beautiful French Canadian term "courriel". In fact the bad term "mél" which looked
like very uneducated, greatly contributed to help spread the Canadian term, which I
use systematically since more than 5 years without any perceived confusion.
This one decision of the official terminology group is not stupid: it adopts a term
that is now spread among French and Canadian natives, uncluding journalists, speakers,
publishers, ... So the real new decision is not to ban "e-mail" but the term "mél"
that this terminology group created artificially years ago and was never accepted.
Apparently Yahoo (or its A.P. journalist) was really badly informed when writing its
paper, and exposed false arguments/reasons justifying the new decision...
--
Philippe.
Spams non tolérés: tout message non sollicité sera
rapporté à vos fournisseurs de services Internet.
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
Patrick Andries scripsit: > Obviously, the AP has found someone to say it is artificial. Actually, a > study made by the Quebec linguist Marie-Éva de Villers(*) shows that > newspapers (like Le Monde) in France as in Québec tend to use more and more > the term now preferred by the French government. I'm also glad to learn the French for "portmanteau word", viz. "forme télescopique". The former term was devised by Lewis Carroll for his coinages "chortle" (chuckle+snort) and "galumph" (gallop+triumph). Modern examples are "brunch" (breakfast+lunch), "smog" (smoke+fog), and "Chunnel" (Channel+tunnel). -- John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.reutershealth.com ccil.org/~cowan Dievas dave dantis; Dievas duos duonos --Lithuanian proverb Deus dedit dentes; deus dabit panem --Latin version thereof Deity donated dentition; deity'll donate doughnuts --English version by Muke Tever God gave gums; God'll give granary --Version by Mat McVeagh
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
Philippe Verdy wrote on July 20, 2003 at 6:23 PM >also like the term "courriel" which sounds and writes better with the French orthograph than the imported acronym "e-mail", or "email" (confuzing with the French term "émail" which is the material that covers teeth, or a decoration and protection material that covers plates Enamel in English. K
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
At 19:56 -0400 2003-07-20, Patrick Andries wrote:
Yahoo's title is obviously overblown ("sexed up" like the BBC says).
And isn't *that* the meme of the moment. One idiot said it and it
spread like a virus. Ick.
Obviously, the AP has found someone to say it is artificial.
Of course, all language is artificial.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Everson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Off-topic, but interesting. This just crossed my desk
>
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=518&u=/ap/20030718/ap_on_re_eu/france_out_with__e_mail__3&printer=1
Yahoo's title is obviously overblown ("sexed up" like the BBC says). The
word is not banned, the governement simply decided to use in its own texts
another term (viz. « courriel ») without imposing this decision upon anyone
else.
Obviously, the AP has found someone to say it is artificial. Actually, a
study made by the Quebec linguist Marie-Éva de Villers(*) shows that
newspapers (like Le Monde) in France as in Québec tend to use more and more
the term now preferred by the French government.
In the same vein, the Times of London (**) had a sarcastic article, of
course, describing the quixotic efforts of pigheaded Frenchmen to use French
words to describe modern concepts. How quaint ! Needless to say, this
article caused many a Gallic roar of laughter on French terminology lists.
More particularly because the articles contains several factual errors
(hacker is not translated by fouineur, but a series of other terms like
pirate, casseur, mordu, etc., computer is used less and less and ordinateur
or ordi are firmly established).
More seriously, it is interesting to note that this must be one of the first
times that a modern computer term coined in Quebec (or at least mainly used
in Quebec) is accepted by an official body in France. In Quebec, the term is
used systematically in books, documentation and advertising.
P. A.
- 0 - 0 - 0
(*) http://www.ledevoir.com/2003/07/11/31543.html
(**) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,542-740610,00.html
Re: [OT] French Government Bans the Term 'E-Mail'
On Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:56 PM, Michael Everson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Off-topic, but interesting. This just crossed my desk > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=518&u=/ap/20030718/ap_on_re_eu/france_out_with__e_mail__3&printer=1 This is not a ban of the technology, just a ban of a term in official publications. The term "e-mail" (or any other term) is not banned from private conversations and documents... Official terminology, published several years ago as "mél", is considered stupid for most French readers (only the French ISP Wanadoo tried to use it to name one of its service, but this trademark usage has been abandonned, in favor of "messagerie" to designate the service, "message" for any technology, and "courriel" for the specific use with SMTP addresses). The French Canadian term "courriel" is much more widely accepted now in France, and in fact I also like the term "courriel" which sounds and writes better with the French orthograph than the imported acronym "e-mail", or "email" (confuzing with the French term "émail" which is the material that covers teeth, or a decoration and protection material that covers plates), or "imail". When the term "mél" was published, it was a simple approxiative phonetic transliteration of "mail", not "e-mail"... I have supported and used since long the term "courriel" as much more acceptable than "e-mail", and "courriel" is now often used by journalists and radio speakers. Yahoo is very late in this news: the French official terminology already banned the term "e-mail", but the first choice of "mél" had to be removed, as everybody refused it. As the term courriel is now widely used, known and recognized, there was no other choice than using the prefered "courriel" instead of the studid "mél". There is no requirement for commercial services, despite what Yahoo seems to suggest, as they can continue to use "e-mail" in their ads (but the english acronym should be explained in French with a little asterisk, in legal documents, like commercial contracts, licencing and usage policy terms, ...). One final note: the term "courriel" looks and sounds like "logiciel" (software) and a lot of terms ending in "-iel", this suffix being used to denote "électronique". So "courrier" can be viewed as a contraction of "courrier électronique" (electronic mail was also contracted into "email" in English, except that many terms are created with a "e-" prefix in English, sometimes as an acronym like "e-mail" or contracted in a single prefixed word like "email") -- Philippe. Spams non tolérés: tout message non sollicité sera rapporté à vos fournisseurs de services Internet.
