Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
At 12:28 -0500 2001-10-02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be possible to add a new character DASH WITH DIAERESIS as long as it does not have any decomposition. Opening the door to lots of nice dictionary things. SWUNG DASH is also sorely missing, but it will be coming up in some FUPA proposals in due course. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Telephone +353 86 807 9169 *** Fax +353 1 478 2597 (by arrangement)
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
At 09:13 -0500 2001-09-26, David Starner wrote: The problem is, I have a couple of German texts that I plan to transcribe, where all I need is HYPHEN WITH DIARESIS. So, you type HYPHEN or EN DASH and then COMBINING DIAERESIS ABOVE. It isn't obvious to me that this is the correct solution: first, one needs to decide whether 002d, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 or 2212 will be used, and then try to ensure that that is what is consistently used. More importantly, though, there is a question as to whether any of these has the appropriate character properties. For instance, I'm guessing that the line-breaking properties would be wrong for this usage. It would be possible to add a new character DASH WITH DIAERESIS as long as it does not have any decomposition. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
3. a capital and small glottal stop and reversed glottal stop For (2), (3), we would need a submission with documentation of usage. We do add capital/small versions of characters when there is sufficient evidence of their usage. This happens, for example, when an IPA is pressed into service in the regular orthography of a language. To submit a proposal, go to www.unicode.org, click on submitting proposals (you may already be following that, since it recommends discussing proposals on this list!) I recently learned of some languages using upper and lower case glottal stops. I don't have details at the moment, but have anticipated writing a proposal once the linguists involved provide further info. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
The missing characters can be characterised as follows: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H WITH LINE BELOW LATIN SMALL LETTER H WITH LINE BELOW When I saw this I remembered that there is a letter H with a line across it that is used in Maltese. I remembered this from seeing it in a catalogue of metal type which listed the accents needed for various European languages, not from a linguistic perspective, so I do not know if that letter would be appropriate for your needs. My thoughts are that, as the use is for transliteration for study rather than for transcription as a direct record it might perhaps be a suitable choice for your use, even if only on a temporary basis, with the big advantage that the letters are not only already coded in unicode as U+0126 for LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H WITH STROKE and U+0127 for LATIN SMALL LETTER H WITH STROKE (the 0126 and 0127 being hexadecimal representations) but also that both are often included in fonts that are available now. If someone happens to be using an older version of Word that has not got those characters available in the font being used then later versions of several fonts, including Arial and Times New Roman, that do contain the characters are available free from the http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/default.htm webpage. In the Microsoft Word program one simply uses Insert Symbol and then finds the desired character in the display provided. One can even set up short cuts so that some combination such as Alt + Shift + H gives the one character and Alt + H gives the other character using text entry using an ordinary English keyboard. I do have a further suggestion regarding the use of the Private Use Area, though as that has a wider context, I will start a new thread for that suggestion. William Overington 30 September 2001
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
At 15:05 -0700 2001-09-26, §§Û§§¶§Í§Â§¶§½ wrote: Is this the same Unicode that encodes characters and not glyphs? Yes, it is, and I am not certain that Mark's strong suspicion is correct because I have seen a lot of data. But I'll be asking Egyptologists. 1. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD 2. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AYIN LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AYIN I strongly suspect that current diacritics (for 1) and modifier letters (for 2) are similar enough in shape to what is required that they can be used. Are there any other characters used by Egyptologist that are so close in shape to i?? and ?? or ?? that they cannot be used? I don't know what i?? and ?? or ?? were meant to be, Mark. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Telephone +353 86 807 9169 *** Fax +353 1 478 2597 (by arrangement)
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
For what its worth I did not think of doing anything with the YODs because of their close correspondence to 1F30GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH PSILI 1F38GREEK CAPITAL LETTER IOTA WITH PSILI Which in practice would look all the more like the YODs because of the standard egyptological practice if italicising transliterations. But having said that I certainly have no problem with these characters and this is somewhat more systematic that would be the case were one to use iotas. - Spencer Michael Everson everson@evertyp e.com Sent by: unicode-bounce@uTo:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nicode.org cc: Subject:Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters 27.09.01 12:41 At 15:05 -0700 2001-09-26, §?§Û§?§¶§Í§Â§¶§½ wrote: Is this the same Unicode that encodes characters and not glyphs? Yes, it is, and I am not certain that Mark's strong suspicion is correct because I have seen a lot of data. But I'll be asking Egyptologists. 1. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD 2. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AYIN LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AYIN I strongly suspect that current diacritics (for 1) and modifier letters (for 2) are similar enough in shape to what is required that they can be used. Are there any other characters used by Egyptologist that are so close in shape to i?? and ?? or ?? that they cannot be used? I don't know what i?? and ?? or ?? were meant to be, Mark. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Telephone +353 86 807 9169 *** Fax +353 1 478 2597 (by arrangement)
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
You need to get a Unicode-enabled browser and font ;-) Attached is a screen shot, and here is the html (sorry for the decimal, but I'm in a rush, and that's what MS gives you): "shape to i#777; and #699; or #703; that they cannot be used?" Mark — Δός μοι ποῦ στῶ, καὶ κινῶ τὴν γῆν — Ἀρχιμήδης[http://www.macchiato.com] - Original Message - From: "Michael Everson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 3:41 AM Subject: Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters At 15:05 -0700 2001-09-26, §§Û§S§¶§Í§Â§¶§½ wrote: Is this the same Unicode that encodes characters and not glyphs? Yes, it is, and I am not certain that Mark's "strong" suspicion is correct because I have seen a lot of data. But I'll be asking Egyptologists. 1. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD 2. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AYIN LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AYIN I strongly suspect that current diacritics (for 1) and modifier letters (for 2) are similar enough in shape to what is required that they can be used. Are there any other characters used by Egyptologist that are so close in shape to i?? and ?? or ?? that they cannot be used? I don't know what i?? and ?? or ?? were meant to be, Mark. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Telephone +353 86 807 9169 *** Fax +353 1 478 2597 (by arrangement) eqypt.gif
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 09:42:32AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The missing characters can be characterised as follows: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H WITH LINE BELOW LATIN SMALL LETTER H WITH LINE BELOW I model these descriptions on those of 1E0E, 1E6E, 1E2A, 1E24 (at least insofar as the capital is concerned). Now, I know that the correct appearance could be achieved using combining characters, but it seems a pain to have to do this for one character only. The problem is, I have a couple of German texts that I plan to transcribe, where all I need is HYPHEN WITH DIARESIS. (It's used in a vocabulary list to indicate mutation of the vowel for the plural form.) The Lithuanians only needed a few more combining characters for pedagogal reasons, as put forth in their proposal a few years ago. There's so many places that could use just one or two more combining characters, that Unicode has basically drawn a line in the sand. (Also, it messes with the Composition/Decomposition algorithm to add more composed characters.) -- David Starner - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pointless website: http://dvdeug.dhis.org When the aliens come, when the deathrays hum, when the bombers bomb, we'll still be freakin' friends. - Freakin' Friends
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
Of your three issues: 1. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H WITH LINE BELOW 2. something that looks like a right half ring with a tail egyptologists have represented it with something that looks like two right half rings stacked on top of each other. 3. a capital and small glottal stop and reversed glottal stop For (1), they are already representable in Unicode, as you state. The policy is not to introduce new precomposed characters, because of normalization stability. A new precomposed character is disallowed in NFC, so it would end up being decomposed in NFC systems in any event: with XML, etc. For (2), (3), we would need a submission with documentation of usage. We do add capital/small versions of characters when there is sufficient evidence of their usage. This happens, for example, when an IPA is pressed into service in the regular orthography of a language. To submit a proposal, go to www.unicode.org, click on submitting proposals (you may already be following that, since it recommends discussing proposals on this list!) Mark — Δός μοι ποῦ στῶ, καὶ κινῶ τὴν γῆν — Ἀρχιμήδης [http://www.macchiato.com] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 12:42 AM Subject: Egyptian Transliteration Characters Hello One and All, Before setting off down the path of submitting a couple of new characters I would like to run them past you for your consideration. If I have ben blind as a bat and these characters already exist please correct me in my error. But first, a little context... I am an Egyptologist and, as you can imagine, transliteration is big in Egyptology since it is not only essential in language teaching but a major convenience in its own right. While complete unanimity is lacking amongst egyptologists concerning the conventions for transliteration there is way better than 95% agreement on the basics. Not surprisingly the Unicode character-set already addresses nearly every character required to transliterate Ancient Egyptian according to any of the alternative schemes which may be used. However, it appears that one character is missing (OK, 2 characters if we say uncial and diminuative) and another is not available in the form in which egyptologists are accustomed to encounter it. The missing characters can be characterised as follows: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H WITH LINE BELOW LATIN SMALL LETTER H WITH LINE BELOW I model these descriptions on those of 1E0E, 1E6E, 1E2A, 1E24 (at least insofar as the capital is concerned). Now, I know that the correct appearance could be achieved using combining characters, but it seems a pain to have to do this for one character only. The other character - the one that just does not appear in a form commonly used in egyptology - corresponds in function to the glottal stop (02C0),but rather than represent this as something that looks like a right half ring with a tail egyptologists have represented it with something that looks like two right half rings stacked on top of each other. To illustrate this rather poor description a little more graphically let me say that in typescript egyptologists often just fake it by typing a 3. By the way we typically refer to this character as aleph, modelled on the Hebrew. ... Then there is the small issue that we like to use capitals in transliterating proper nouns - but does it even make sense to have a capital and small glottal stop and reversed glottal stop? I will stop now before I embarass myself. Many thanks to all who will reply. - Spencer Tasker
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
At 07:20 -0700 2001-09-26, Mark Davis wrote: 2. something that looks like a right half ring with a tail egyptologists have represented it with something that looks like two right half rings stacked on top of each other. 3. a capital and small glottal stop and reversed glottal stop For (2), (3), we would need a submission with documentation of usage. We do add capital/small versions of characters when there is sufficient evidence of their usage. This happens, for example, when an IPA is pressed into service in the regular orthography of a language. Pleas http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2241.pdf, my N2241: Proposal to add 6 Egyptological characters to the UCS -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Telephone +353 86 807 9169 *** Fax +353 1 478 2597 (by arrangement)
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
At 09:13 -0500 2001-09-26, David Starner wrote: The problem is, I have a couple of German texts that I plan to transcribe, where all I need is HYPHEN WITH DIARESIS. So, you type HYPHEN or EN DASH and then COMBINING DIAERESIS ABOVE. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Telephone +353 86 807 9169 *** Fax +353 1 478 2597 (by arrangement)
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
In a message dated 2001-09-26 8:09:18 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The problem is, I have a couple of German texts that I plan to transcribe, where all I need is HYPHEN WITH DIARESIS. So, you type HYPHEN or EN DASH and then COMBINING DIAERESIS ABOVE. I think that was David's point, that these things are always possible using combining characters, and the argument but it's easier with a precomposed character doesn't stand up to the concerns about proliferation and normalization. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
For 1. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD 2. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AYIN LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AYIN I strongly suspect that current diacritics (for 1) and modifier letters (for 2) are similar enough in shape to what is required that they can be used. Are there any other characters used by Egyptologist that are so close in shape to ỉ and ʻ or ʿ that they cannot be used? Mark — Δός μοι ποῦ στῶ, καὶ κινῶ τὴν γῆν — Ἀρχιμήδης [http://www.macchiato.com] - Original Message - From: Michael Everson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 7:50 AM Subject: Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters At 07:20 -0700 2001-09-26, Mark Davis wrote: 2. something that looks like a right half ring with a tail egyptologists have represented it with something that looks like two right half rings stacked on top of each other. 3. a capital and small glottal stop and reversed glottal stop For (2), (3), we would need a submission with documentation of usage. We do add capital/small versions of characters when there is sufficient evidence of their usage. This happens, for example, when an IPA is pressed into service in the regular orthography of a language. Pleas http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2241.pdf, my N2241: Proposal to add 6 Egyptological characters to the UCS -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Telephone +353 86 807 9169 *** Fax +353 1 478 2597 (by arrangement)
Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters
Is this the same Unicode that encodes characters and not glyphs? rubyrb$B$8$e$&$$$C$A$c$s(B/rbrp(/rprtJuuitchan/rtrp)/rp/ruby Well, I guess what you say is true, I could never be the right kind of girl for you, I could never be your woman - White Town --- Original Message --- $B:9=P?M(B: Mark Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]; $B08@h(B: [EMAIL PROTECTED];Michael Everson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; $BF|;~(B: 01/09/26 16:33 $B7oL>(B: Re: Egyptian Transliteration Characters For 1. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD 2. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AYIN LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AYIN I strongly suspect that current diacritics (for 1) and modifier letters (for 2) are similar enough in shape to what is required that they can be used. Are there any other characters used by Egyptologist that are so close in shape to i?? and ?? or ?? that they cannot be used?
