Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Karl Pentzlin karl-pentz...@acssoft.de wrote: Am Montag, 13. August 2012 um 20:53 schrieb Hans Aberg: HA The German WP mentions that in the context of the now HA discontinued Bildschirmtext, it was called Raute: HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelkreuz_(Satzzeichen) HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildschirmtext HA But otherwise, Raute is the same as English lozenge: HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raute_(Symbol) In fact, I have heavily edited these Wikipedia articles in the last days, Before, they show a mess of Doppelkreuz, Raute, and Nummernzeichen Exzellent: ein Mi-ß-ssstand weniger! (Roughly: with Sisyphus on a list!) [.] Now, after discussing this with several people, I learned that this scheme was too academic, as in fact everybody seems to call the # Raute. The word Raute otherwise is unused in colloquial German. I'm not everybody. Uff. You learn in math lessons that there is a geometric form called Rhombus (lozenge) which also can be called Raute, but in the class Talking about the german school system is like opening a can of worms, Rhombus is the preferred term. Raute also is the preferred term in and teachers really need some »Feedback«. But even if an additional study of psychology would be required to become teacher, it would most likely be treated as an additional learning climax only. Or philosophy, just the same. heraldics, but used by the general public only when referring to the pattern of the Bavarian flag. (Besides, Raute is used in the name (I didn't know that at all, but maybe i just didn't understand enough bavarian?) of some herbs, like Ruta graveolens, but also only by specialists.) [.] Thus, when the # came as a new character to the general public with the keypad telephone in the 1970s, together with a name Raute which sounds not unknown and not really wrong, thus it got its way into the general public together with the # (which, as said, was formerly not used in Germany). I like your term which sounds not unknown very much indeed. But i think it came up in the eighties for the public at large, i.e., the raging current which make a mountain out of a molehill. And it was *plain terror* because Btx was doomed to succeed. (Which it didn't, the potato-trick didn't work. Why, oh why? I don't understand, too.) Raute is e.g. used by customer services which you call when you have a question regarding your mobile phone, and you are told to press the lower right key on your telephone keypad. On the other hand, as far as I know now (and a DIN officer confirmed me this), there is no German standard which uses the term Raute. But Raute is plain wrong! Should the usual »aufwändige Albträume« (roughly: jmmmense efffords) be globbered with it? I wouldn't like that, and it follows why.. Thus, I probably will use the term Doppelkreuz but have to remark that I address the character commonly called Raute. As the Oh, please do so. I remember Klaus von Dohnanyi saying »Plauderstübchen« when Christiansen was about to talk about Chatrooms, and it saved a sunday and is still remembered, and positively. [.] Thank you very much. - Karl Steven
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
ME == Michael Everson ever...@evertype.com writes: ME and ◊ is named Raute and indicates Subtotal. Now that you mention that, I recall the ◊ symbol used for subtotal lines on (US) adding machines back in the ’70s. That likely is why the character was included in sets such as hp/pcl roman, mac roman, adobe symbol, et al. goog’ing for « adding machine subtotal symbol » confirms, but hasn’t supplied a reference to where that use orriginated. -JimC -- James Cloos cl...@jhcloos.com OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
Am Montag, 13. August 2012 um 20:53 schrieb Hans Aberg: HA The German WP mentions that in the context of the now HA discontinued Bildschirmtext, it was called Raute: HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelkreuz_(Satzzeichen) HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildschirmtext HA But otherwise, Raute is the same as English lozenge: HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raute_(Symbol) In fact, I have heavily edited these Wikipedia articles in the last days, Before, they show a mess of Doppelkreuz, Raute, and Nummernzeichen When I started my current work on a keyboard related paper (which is the first time that I have to write for the general public, rather than for colleagues in the standardizing business), I started with a scheme: Doppelkreuz (literally: double cross) is the usual name for # as a character. Raute is: a. lozenge b. the viewdata square in the now discontinued Bildschirmtext (which roughly corresponds to Viewdata, Videotex or Prestel in other countries.) Nummernzeichen (literally: number sign) is a collective term for # and the Numero-Zeichen № U+2116 NUMERO SIGN, as using it specifically for # would cause confusion, as the # never was used for marking numbers except on desktop calculators, and the name in fact was used for the NUMERO SIGN also. Then, I extended and edited the Wikipedia articles according to this scheme. Now, after discussing this with several people, I learned that this scheme was too academic, as in fact everybody seems to call the # Raute. The word Raute otherwise is unused in colloquial German. You learn in math lessons that there is a geometric form called Rhombus (lozenge) which also can be called Raute, but in the class Rhombus is the preferred term. Raute also is the preferred term in heraldics, but used by the general public only when referring to the pattern of the Bavarian flag. (Besides, Raute is used in the name of some herbs, like Ruta graveolens, but also only by specialists.) The lozenge usually is called Karo in colloquial language (like the diamond suit on playing cards), and only Rhombus when it deviates too much from a square standing on its corner. Thus, when the # came as a new character to the general public with the keypad telephone in the 1970s, together with a name Raute which sounds not unknown and not really wrong, thus it got its way into the general public together with the # (which, as said, was formerly not used in Germany). Raute is e.g. used by customer services which you call when you have a question regarding your mobile phone, and you are told to press the lower right key on your telephone keypad. On the other hand, as far as I know now (and a DIN officer confirmed me this), there is no German standard which uses the term Raute. Thus, I probably will use the term Doppelkreuz but have to remark that I address the character commonly called Raute. As the discussion so far showed no evidence for any relevant general public use for the lozenge besides the subtotal on desktop calculators, I fortunately do not have to address this in depth. Thanks to all participants so far. - Karl
Fwd: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
-- Forwarded message -- From: Karl Pentzlin karl-pentz...@acssoft.de Date: Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:04 PM Subject: Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)? To: Robert Wheelock rwhlk...@gmail.com Dear Robert, you have sent the mail below to my private address but I presume that it was intended for the Unicode list. Please resend it to unicode@unicode.org. I will answer you there, as I in fact was engaged in that subject before. Best wishes Karl -- Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 10:14:21 PM, you wrote: RW On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 6:48 AM, Karl Pentzlin karl-pentz...@acssoft.de wrote: RW RW Am Montag, 13. August 2012 um 20:53 schrieb Hans Aberg: HA The German WP mentions that in the context of the now HA discontinued Bildschirmtext, it was called Raute: HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelkreuz_(Satzzeichen) HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildschirmtext RW HA But otherwise, Raute is the same as English lozenge: HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raute_(Symbol) RW RW In fact, I have heavily edited these Wikipedia articles in the last days, RW Before, they show a mess of Doppelkreuz, Raute, and Nummernzeichen RW When I started my current work on a keyboard related paper (which is RW the first time that I have to write for the general public, rather RW than for colleagues in the standardizing business), I started with RW a scheme: RW Doppelkreuz (literally: double cross) is the usual name for # RW as a character. RW Raute is: RW a. lozenge RW b. the viewdata square in the now discontinued Bildschirmtext RW(which roughly corresponds to Viewdata, Videotex or Prestel RW in other countries.) RW Nummernzeichen (literally: number sign) is a collective term for RW # and the Numero-Zeichen № U+2116 NUMERO SIGN, as using it RW specifically for # would cause confusion, as the # never was RW used for marking numbers except on desktop calculators, and the RW name in fact was used for the NUMERO SIGN also. RW Then, I extended and edited the Wikipedia articles according to this RW scheme. RW Now, after discussing this with several people, I learned that this RW scheme was too academic, as in fact everybody seems to call the # RW Raute. The word Raute otherwise is unused in colloquial German. RW You learn in math lessons that there is a geometric form called RW Rhombus (lozenge) which also can be called Raute, but in the class RW Rhombus is the preferred term. Raute also is the preferred term in RW heraldics, but used by the general public only when referring to the RW pattern of the Bavarian flag. (Besides, Raute is used in the name RW of some herbs, like Ruta graveolens, but also only by specialists.) RW The lozenge usually is called Karo in colloquial language (like the RW diamond suit on playing cards), and only Rhombus when it deviates RW too much from a square standing on its corner. RW Thus, when the # came as a new character to the general public RW with the keypad telephone in the 1970s, together with a name Raute RW which sounds not unknown and not really wrong, thus it got its way RW into the general public together with the # (which, as said, was RW formerly not used in Germany). RW Raute is e.g. used by customer services which you call when you have RW a question regarding your mobile phone, and you are told to press the RW lower right key on your telephone keypad. RW On the other hand, as far as I know now (and a DIN officer confirmed RW me this), there is no German standard which uses the term Raute. RW RW Thus, I probably will use the term Doppelkreuz but have to remark RW that I address the character commonly called Raute. As the RW discussion so far showed no evidence for any relevant general public RW use for the lozenge besides the subtotal on desktop calculators, RW I fortunately do not have to address this in depth. RW Thanks to all participants so far. RW RW - Karl RW —Reply— RW The old Dutch florin/guilder sign should be DISUNIFIED from RW U+0192, the f with the leftwards-downsweeping tail used by the RW IAI (International African Institute) for the voiceless bilabial RW fricative, IPA /ɸ/. I've moved the florin/guilder over to the RW Private Use Zone—at codepoint U+E511—in my ISRI Series Fonts (forthcoming). RW Robert Lloyd Wheelock RW International Symbolism Research Institute RW Augusta, ME U.S.A.
U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
Why is U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE in the Mac OS Roman character set (at 0xD7 = 215, and therefore contained in several common fonts like Arial or Times New Roman)?
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On Aug 13, 2012, at 7:37 AM, Karl Pentzlin wrote: Why is U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE in the Mac OS Roman character set (at 0xD7 = 215, and therefore contained in several common fonts like Arial or Times New Roman)? Do you have non-unicode fonts where it is located at 0xD7, instead of the × multiplication sign which should be there? I have 25CA in a large number of fonts on my machine.
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On 13 Aug 2012, at 12:37, Karl Pentzlin wrote: Why is U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE in the Mac OS Roman character set (at 0xD7 = 215, and therefore contained in several common fonts like Arial or Times New Roman)? Because they put it there in 1984. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
Am Montag, 13. August 2012 um 14:24 schrieb Michael Everson: ME On 13 Aug 2012, at 12:37, Karl Pentzlin wrote: Why is U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE in the Mac OS Roman character set (at 0xD7 = 215, and therefore contained in several common fonts like Arial or Times New Roman)? ME Because they put it there in 1984. My intent is to get information *why* the character was considered that important at that time to be included into an 8-bit character set with its limited space. The problem I am confronted with is that this character shares its German name Raute with the #, and I have to consider any historical use of the (real) lozenge when describing the # in a keyboard-related German publication I have to make. (The name Raute for # seems to derive from the International Telecommunication Union standard ITU-T E.161, which requires the name square, or the most commonly used equivalent term in other languages for the sign on the lower right corner of 12-key telephone keypads, which is translated into Raute instead of literally Quadrat. The term square is also used that way in the name of U+2317 VIEWDATA SQUARE, which is a straight # like it is in fact shown on most telephone keypads.) - Karl
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
The LOZENGE is also found in DOS code page 437. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
Karl Pentzlin, Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:04:24 +0200: Am Montag, 13. August 2012 um 14:24 schrieb Michael Everson: ME On 13 Aug 2012, at 12:37, Karl Pentzlin wrote: Why is U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE in the Mac OS Roman character set (at 0xD7 = 215, and therefore contained in several common fonts like Arial or Times New Roman)? ME Because they put it there in 1984. My intent is to get information *why* the character was considered that important at that time to be included into an 8-bit character set with its limited space. Mac fonts also included ƒ (LATIN SMALL LETTER F WITH HOOK). This was due to the fact that names of folders used the name 'foo ƒ] - or 'foo U+0192', if you wish. It was, however, usually only when the system or an app created a folder name that the ƒ was added. Humans creating a folder name seldom added it, I think. So I suspect that U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE was used in some visible place in the system and/or in applications. I have used Mac since roughly System 7, but I don't remember what the U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE was used for. But I have a vague memory of having seen it in some outline - thus, where the bullets are used e.g. in HTML unordered lists (ul). If so, then it was a character that, like the ƒ, was not typed by users very often. The problem I am confronted with is that this character shares its German name Raute with the #, and I have to consider any historical use of the (real) lozenge when describing the # in a keyboard-related German publication I have to make. On my Norwegian Mac keyboard, I must type Option+Shift+A to get the ◊. And the difficult shortcut is another indication that it is not used very often. -- leif halvard silli
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On 13 Aug 2012, at 15:20, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: Mac fonts also included ƒ (LATIN SMALL LETTER F WITH HOOK). This was due to the fact that names of folders used the name 'foo ƒ] - or 'foo U+0192', if you wish. It was, however, usually only when the system or an app created a folder name that the ƒ was added. Humans creating a folder name seldom added it, I think. No, humans learnt to do it. And we still do: it's right there on alt-f on the US/GB/IE keyboards. It's unfortunate that this italic character which is really the same thing as the florin sign was unified with the African Ƒƒ because I am sure it makes fonts tend to be unsuitable for African use. In fact Just looking at it in this e-mail I see that my own ƒ is not really suitable, as it should be as long as a j. fjƒɲ. I[m going to go fix that. So I suspect that U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE was used in some visible place in the system and/or in applications. I have used Mac since roughly System 7, but I don't remember what the U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE was used for. But I have a vague memory of having seen it in some outline - thus, where the bullets are used e.g. in HTML unordered lists (ul). If so, then it was a character that, like the ƒ, was not typed by users very often. Less so than the ƒ, but many of us learnt to use the ƒ for our folder names. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
Michael Everson, Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:38:48 +0100: On 13 Aug 2012, at 15:20, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: Less so than the ƒ, but many of us learnt to use the ƒ for our folder names. I too learned to use the ƒ for folder names. But while I learned to do it, I seldom did it as it had no practical consequences whether I did user it or not. It appeared to be purely about esthetics. -- Leif Halvard Silli
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
The LOZENGE is also found in GOST 10859; my guess that it was there not to represent sown fields or female fertility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lozenge#Symbolism) but rather for its usage in modal logic to express the possibility of the following expression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lozenge#Modal_logic) as it contains quite a few other symbols used in mathematical logic. Leo On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Michael Everson ever...@evertype.com wrote: The LOZENGE is also found in DOS code page 437. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On 13 Aug 2012, at 16:33, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: I too learned to use the ƒ for folder names. But while I learned to do it, I seldom did it as it had no practical consequences whether I did user it or not. It appeared to be purely about esthetics. Back in the days before Macs used filetype extensions it was handy to have a folder named Allatuq ƒ if your font was also named Allatuq. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Karl Pentzlin wrote: The problem I am confronted with is that this character shares its German name Raute with the # I learnt in 7th grade what “Raute” means. “#” is not a Raute. The center field of “#” is called Raute or Rhombus. BTW, Herr Pentzlin: http://www.machsmit.de/media/mainteaser/header-ichwillserleben.png http://www.machsmit.de/kampagne/printmedien.php show what the braindead German DIN keyboard layout has done to the apostrophe (’): Killed by the acute accent (´). http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/apostrophe.html But if you don’t understand the difference between a Raute and a Nummernzeichen, you probably can’t tell an apostrophe (’) from an acute accent (´) either.
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On 13 Aug 2012, at 14:04, Karl Pentzlin wrote: Am Montag, 13. August 2012 um 14:24 schrieb Michael Everson: ME On 13 Aug 2012, at 12:37, Karl Pentzlin wrote: Why is U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE in the Mac OS Roman character set (at 0xD7 = 215, and therefore contained in several common fonts like Arial or Times New Roman)? ME Because they put it there in 1984. My intent is to get information *why* the character was considered that important at that time to be included into an 8-bit character set with its limited space. Good luck? The problem I am confronted with is that this character shares its German name Raute with the #, and I have to consider any historical use of the (real) lozenge when describing the # in a keyboard-related German publication I have to make. I don't think so. At http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raute_(Symbol) you will see that # is named Doppelkreuz, and ◊ is named Raute and indicates Subtotal. (The name Raute for # seems to derive from the International Telecommunication Union standard ITU-T E.161, which requires the name square, or the most commonly used equivalent term in other languages for the sign on the lower right corner of 12-key telephone keypads, which is translated into Raute instead of literally Quadrat. The term square is also used that way in the name of U+2317 VIEWDATA SQUARE, which is a straight # like it is in fact shown on most telephone keypads.) Again, this does not seem to make sense given the use of # and ◊ and * on that 1970 adding machine. Perhaps that was a translation error in the ITU standard; http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raute_(Symbol)#Raute_und_Doppelkreuz does address this, though I don't know if it addresses it in a satisfactory way. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 6:04 AM, Karl Pentzlin karl-pentz...@acssoft.dewrote: My intent is to get information *why* the character was considered that important at that time to be included into an 8-bit character set with its limited space. The problem I am confronted with is that this character shares its German name Raute with the #, and I have to consider any historical use of the (real) lozenge when describing the # in a keyboard-related German publication I have to make. (The name Raute for # seems to derive from the International Telecommunication Union standard ITU-T E.161, which requires the name square, or the most commonly used equivalent term in other languages for the sign on the lower right corner of 12-key telephone keypads, which is translated into Raute instead of literally Quadrat. The term square is also used that way in the name of U+2317 VIEWDATA SQUARE, which is a straight # like it is in fact shown on most telephone keypads.) This seems strange: # looks nothing like a Raute (=rhombus). If I remember correctly, it was sometimes called Gatter or Lattenzaun. However, I have not used German computers for 16 years... markus
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On Aug 13, 2012, at 9:24 AM, Michael Everson wrote: On 13 Aug 2012, at 14:04, Karl Pentzlin wrote: Am Montag, 13. August 2012 um 14:24 schrieb Michael Everson: ME On 13 Aug 2012, at 12:37, Karl Pentzlin wrote: Why is U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE in the Mac OS Roman character set (at 0xD7 = 215, and therefore contained in several common fonts like Arial or Times New Roman)? ME Because they put it there in 1984. My intent is to get information *why* the character was considered that important at that time to be included into an 8-bit character set with its limited space. Good luck? I do not believe it was for accounting, logic, or mathematical use. It was included in the original Macintosh character set as shown in Figure 2 of the Font Manager chapter of Inside Macintosh, volume I (1985), but was not included in the shaded mathematical set in that figure. At that time it was shown with a shape more akin to that of U+25C7 WHITE DIAMOND. I think it may have been intended as an unfilled complement to the BLACK DIAMOND used as one of the Menu Manager user-interface elements at 0x11-0x14 in that figure. However, by the time of Inside Macintosh: Text in 1993, the character was shown with a shape more akin to that of U+25CA LOZENGE (see Figure 1-36, The Standard Roman character set). I do not have any definitive word on this since I was not involved in the creation of the original Macintosh character set. - Peter E
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
Andreas Prilop, Mon, 13 Aug 2012 18:09:44 +0200 (CEST): On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Karl Pentzlin wrote: The problem I am confronted with is that this character shares its German name Raute with the # I learnt in 7th grade what “Raute” means. “#” is not a Raute. It is simpler to say what it is not than it is to say what it is ... (See below.) The center field of “#” is called Raute or Rhombus. ··· snip ··· But if you don’t understand the difference between a Raute and a Nummernzeichen, you probably can’t tell an apostrophe (’) from an acute accent (´) either. You should by more sympathetic to your own (German) misunderstandings - and also pay more attention to what Karl said here: ]] (The name Raute for # seems to derive from the International Telecommunication Union standard ITU-T E.161, which requires the name square, or the most commonly used equivalent term in other languages [[ In Norwegian, the '#' on a phone keyboard is called 'firkanttast' = 'square key'. The name has always puzzled me as everyone can see that it isn't really what we usually mean by a square/quadrat/firkant/Viereck. But when I hear that is a result of an ITU standard, then I understand it better ... The word 'Raute' reminds of the Norwegian 'rute' - and my Norwegian book on etymology assumes that 'rute' is derived from 'Raute'. The Norwegian 'rute' may refer to a cell in a (data) table or in a square board for chess. Such a 'rute' is of course a square. Perhaps German 'Raute' has a similar possibility of being interpreted as square? Btw, the Norwegian for 'diamond', in the playing card sense, is 'ruter'. The 'ruter' in the playing card sense, is easily associated with 'rute' - in other words: square. However, we see that it is not a square, in the normal sense. The modern German name for diamond cards, Karo, geht auf lateinisch quadrum „Viereck, Quadrat“ zurück. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karo_(Farbe) -- Leif Halvard Silli
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On 13 Aug 2012, at 18:09, Andreas Prilop wrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Karl Pentzlin wrote: The problem I am confronted with is that this character shares its German name Raute with the # I learnt in 7th grade what “Raute” means. “#” is not a Raute. The center field of “#” is called Raute or Rhombus. The German WP mentions that in the context of the now discontinued Bildschirmtext, it was called Raute: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelkreuz_(Satzzeichen) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildschirmtext https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildschirmtext But otherwise, Raute is the same as English lozenge: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raute_(Symbol) Hans
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On 8/13/2012 10:11 AM, Peter Edberg wrote: I do not believe it was for accounting, logic, or mathematical use. It was included in the original Macintosh character set as shown in Figure 2 of the Font Manager chapter of Inside Macintosh, volume I (1985), but was not included in the shaded mathematical set in that figure. At that time it was shown with a shape more akin to that of U+25C7 WHITE DIAMOND. I think it may have been intended as an unfilled complement to the BLACK DIAMOND used as one of the Menu Manager user-interface elements at 0x11-0x14 in that figure. However, by the time of Inside Macintosh: Text in 1993, the character was shown with a shape more akin to that of U+25CA LOZENGE (see Figure 1-36, The Standard Roman character set). I do not have any definitive word on this since I was not involved in the creation of the original Macintosh character set. Adding on to Peter's information, in an attempt to be slightly more definitive... People are missing the fact that the lozenge as encoded at D7 in MacRoman, but *also* was E0 in the Symbol set for the Mac. And E0 in the Symbol set was mapped to lozenge in PostScript. So the proximate reason why U+25CA LOZENGE appeared in the Macintosh character sets can be laid at the feet of LaserWriter PostScript support, I suspect. We did consider, back in 1990, whether the MacRoman D7 should be mapped to U+25C7 WHITE DIAMOND, instead, but the decision, for whatever reason, it was decided that MacRoman D7 and MacSymbol E0 were both lozenge. That may account for the shape change that Peter mentions in documentation from 1993. There is some early font information which suggests that the original intent, however, may have been to have an open diamond. If you look at high quality font documentation, e.g., the HP Book of Characters from 1992, the MC Text Symbol Set (12J) shows an open diamond shape at D7, instead of the lozenge. But the confusion regarding the identity of this character can be illustrated by comparing the MS: PS Math Symbol Set (15M), which shows an open diamond at E0, versus the AS: 'Symbol Symbol Set (19M), which shows a lozenge shape at the same position. Both of those fonts are clearly intended to cover the same set, although the glyphs are all separately designed. Settling on the lozenge may have had more to do with Adobe designs winning out, rather than anything else. An open diamond is also rather common in various mathematical pi fonts from the era, including Ventura Math, which was also closely related to the Adobe symbol encoding. Of course, it is a separate question as to why lozenge (or open diamond) was added to the MacRoman set in the first place, as well as the Symbol set -- that may have something to do with early notions about user-interface elements, as Peter surmises, but the fact that it wasn't carried over into most of the early non-Roman character sets for the Mac would indicate that even if it had been intended as a user-interface character of some sort, that was dropped in international usage. I agree with Peter that the choice probably had nothing much to do with accounting, logic, or math per se, except insofar as one of those usages may have figured into the choice of elements for the original PostScript symbol set. I can trace it back to a 1985 edition of the PostScript Language Reference Manual. If people *really* want to know what it was for, I would suggest starting there and digging back further into the documentation trail at Adobe Systems prior to 1985. John Warnock is still around -- somebody who knows him could presumably just ask him. ;-) Regarding another stray comment in this thread, Michael Everson said: The LOZENGE is also found in DOS code page 437. That is definitely not true. Michael may be misremembering the diamond from the set of 4 card suit symbols, which definitely are in DOS CP437. --Ken
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On 8/13/2012 12:25 PM, Ken Whistler wrote: Regarding another stray comment in this thread, Michael Everson said: The LOZENGE is also found in DOS code page 437. That is definitely not true. Michael may be misremembering the diamond from the set of 4 card suit symbols, which definitely are in DOS CP437. Remember that CP 437 was implemented as rather low resolution bitmaps for onscreen display on screens that showed terminal-like appearance. In that context, you can't distinguish a lozenge from a squished diamond (*) from a diamond suit symbol. While the character is one a of a set, it was not uncommon to have people make do with somewhat similar characters standing in for each other. In the early years such unifications were, if not encouraged, then widely tolerated. So, even if the lozenge, as such, may not have been in CP437, anyone who wanted to display one, would have used the card suit. A./ (*) because of fixed character cells, some characters or symbols where a bit distorted to fit the cell, so if you saw a lozenge like shape you couldn't be sure that it wasn't intended to be a diamond that had be shoehorned into the character cell...
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
I joined the Lisa group in late '83, and that was soon absorbed into the Mac group. As I recall, the MacRoman character set was already done, based on the Lisa. This predated the laserwriter, so that wasn't the origin. The long 'f' was for use as a currency symbol (particularly for Gulden). I don't know where the lozenge came from, but the purpose was not for mathematical, logical, or accounting purpose (as Peter said). I believe the main purpose was as an alternate bullet shape. Mark https://plus.google.com/114199149796022210033 * * *— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —* ** On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Ken Whistler k...@sybase.com wrote: On 8/13/2012 10:11 AM, Peter Edberg wrote: I do not believe it was for accounting, logic, or mathematical use. It was included in the original Macintosh character set as shown in Figure 2 of the Font Manager chapter of Inside Macintosh, volume I (1985), but was not included in the shaded mathematical set in that figure. At that time it was shown with a shape more akin to that of U+25C7 WHITE DIAMOND. I think it may have been intended as an unfilled complement to the BLACK DIAMOND used as one of the Menu Manager user-interface elements at 0x11-0x14 in that figure. However, by the time of Inside Macintosh: Text in 1993, the character was shown with a shape more akin to that of U+25CA LOZENGE (see Figure 1-36, The Standard Roman character set). I do not have any definitive word on this since I was not involved in the creation of the original Macintosh character set. Adding on to Peter's information, in an attempt to be slightly more definitive... People are missing the fact that the lozenge as encoded at D7 in MacRoman, but *also* was E0 in the Symbol set for the Mac. And E0 in the Symbol set was mapped to lozenge in PostScript. So the proximate reason why U+25CA LOZENGE appeared in the Macintosh character sets can be laid at the feet of LaserWriter PostScript support, I suspect. We did consider, back in 1990, whether the MacRoman D7 should be mapped to U+25C7 WHITE DIAMOND, instead, but the decision, for whatever reason, it was decided that MacRoman D7 and MacSymbol E0 were both lozenge. That may account for the shape change that Peter mentions in documentation from 1993. There is some early font information which suggests that the original intent, however, may have been to have an open diamond. If you look at high quality font documentation, e.g., the HP Book of Characters from 1992, the MC Text Symbol Set (12J) shows an open diamond shape at D7, instead of the lozenge. But the confusion regarding the identity of this character can be illustrated by comparing the MS: PS Math Symbol Set (15M), which shows an open diamond at E0, versus the AS: 'Symbol Symbol Set (19M), which shows a lozenge shape at the same position. Both of those fonts are clearly intended to cover the same set, although the glyphs are all separately designed. Settling on the lozenge may have had more to do with Adobe designs winning out, rather than anything else. An open diamond is also rather common in various mathematical pi fonts from the era, including Ventura Math, which was also closely related to the Adobe symbol encoding. Of course, it is a separate question as to why lozenge (or open diamond) was added to the MacRoman set in the first place, as well as the Symbol set -- that may have something to do with early notions about user-interface elements, as Peter surmises, but the fact that it wasn't carried over into most of the early non-Roman character sets for the Mac would indicate that even if it had been intended as a user-interface character of some sort, that was dropped in international usage. I agree with Peter that the choice probably had nothing much to do with accounting, logic, or math per se, except insofar as one of those usages may have figured into the choice of elements for the original PostScript symbol set. I can trace it back to a 1985 edition of the PostScript Language Reference Manual. If people *really* want to know what it was for, I would suggest starting there and digging back further into the documentation trail at Adobe Systems prior to 1985. John Warnock is still around -- somebody who knows him could presumably just ask him. ;-) Regarding another stray comment in this thread, Michael Everson said: The LOZENGE is also found in DOS code page 437. That is definitely not true. Michael may be misremembering the diamond from the set of 4 card suit symbols, which definitely are in DOS CP437. --Ken
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
On 8/13/2012 12:50 PM, Asmus Freytag wrote: In that context, you can't distinguish a lozenge from a squished diamond (*) from a diamond suit symbol. While the character is one a of a set, it was not uncommon to have people make do with somewhat similar characters standing in for each other. In the early years such unifications were, if not encouraged, then widely tolerated. So, even if the lozenge, as such, may not have been in CP437, anyone who wanted to display one, would have used the card suit. Sure. Just like people regularly conflated the Greek letter beta and German esszet (E1) in CP437, which was placed between lowercase alpha (E0) and uppercase gamma (E2), just to further confuse everybody. ;-) But I wasn't looking at the screen of a 1984 vintage IBM PC in this case -- I was looking at the IBM Corporate Specification for character sets, which identifies CP437 position 04 as SS03 Diamond Suit Symbol. (And at high quality laser font documentation.) Incidentally, while people may have attempted to use CP437 04 as a lozenge instead of a card suit, in the 1980's they would have had little to no success in trying to exchange it, because the IBM PC overloaded the C0 positions in CP437 for screen display. So programs could poke 04 to the screen display to show a diamond shape, but when you tried to use that as an interchangeable character you usually ended up with garbage instead. --Ken
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
For African use as a Latin letter, it's unfortunate that most fonts show ƒ (LATIN SMALL LETTER F WITH HOOK) in italic style, as if it was a florin symbol. This letter should better be vertically straight, like an f with just the hook added below, and adopting an italic style only in italic fonts, not in roman fonts. Only the florin sign should remain italic and thus disunified (its shape should not change significantly in italic fonts, as it could collide easily with surrounding digits or could become too large to fit in monospaced cells for digits with standard figure-width). A renderer using a font that does not have a mapping for the florin sign should be able to synthetize it by italicizing the vertical shape of the LATIN SMALL LETTER F WITH HOOK, or better by using the mapping of that letter in an italic variant font in the same font family. 2012/8/13 Michael Everson ever...@evertype.com: On 13 Aug 2012, at 15:20, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: Mac fonts also included ƒ (LATIN SMALL LETTER F WITH HOOK). This was due to the fact that names of folders used the name 'foo ƒ] - or 'foo U+0192', if you wish. It was, however, usually only when the system or an app created a folder name that the ƒ was added. Humans creating a folder name seldom added it, I think. No, humans learnt to do it. And we still do: it's right there on alt-f on the US/GB/IE keyboards. It's unfortunate that this italic character which is really the same thing as the florin sign was unified with the African Ƒƒ because I am sure it makes fonts tend to be unsuitable for African use. In fact Just looking at it in this e-mail I see that my own ƒ is not really suitable, as it should be as long as a j. fjƒɲ. I[m going to go fix that.