Re: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well!
Glenn wrote: Ray, I'm glad you brought this up on the list. Even though you haven't let out your anger about this, you get real ad hominem attacks aimed at you by Tony frequently. I believe this double standard has become completely accepted here in what Craig called the UCD culture. yeah, plenty others here see this, too. .. UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN [aka laserbeam®] [aka ray] SERIAL LIAR. CALL FOR RATES. __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well!
No, he's using it correctly. It means not based on logic but not necessarily illogical. I think it's more about intention. For instance, if I called someone insane just to be mean and they happened to *be* insane in some measurable way, my comment is no less ad hominem. I love the definitions below. It's funny they used Fenton for their example. ad hominem |ˈad ˈhämənəm| |ˌˈød ˌhɑmənəm| |ad ˌhɒmɪnɛm| adverb adjective 1 (of an argument or reaction) arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic. • attacking an opponent’s motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain : vicious ad hominem attacks. 2 relating to or associated with a particular person : [as adv. ] the office was created ad hominem for Fenton. | [as adj. ] an ad hominem response. ORIGIN late 16th cent.: Latin, literally ‘to the person.’ Frank On May 16, 2007, at 12:13 AM, Anthony West wrote: I don't believe you are using the term ad hominem rightly. It is not merely a synonym for insulting. Ad hominem is a flaw in a *logical argument*, not a flaw in courtesy. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well!
- Original Message - From: UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: University City List UnivCity@list.purple.com Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well! I too am in favor of civility on the listserv and have previously pointed out that ad hominem has no place in public discourse or rational debate. still, ad hominem hasn't gone away, and now we get to see yet another form of it: hand-picking which ad hominem messages are scolded and which ad hominem messages are allowed. YOU GO, AD HOMINEM! attacking an opponent's motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain : vicious ad hominem attacks. 2 relating to or associated with a particular person Many people in the district ignore the real definition. Some freely include tone, or breaking the code of silence if they wish to scold or ban someone from participating when he or she is outside the gang. Yet the posts of some folks are almost always ad hominem attacks. If they are in the right thinking gang, they will always get a free pass with this. I have been accused of ad hominem attacks because of my tone and by causing embarrassment to civic association leaders when exposing specific problems. Sometimes the issue or problem would require that I name individuals. This is not the same as ad hominem attacks. Is this a mistake or a tactic? I wonder. The same folks whom have lectured me and called my posts ad hominem have completely ignored the real ad hominem machine that is running all the time. I know I got really frustrated, and believe it or not, had my feelings hurt when people could say that I was crazy, loony, evil, etc, etc while I was so often speaking about real and specific issues or problems. This double standard is so obvious to me. Ray, I'm glad you brought this up on the list. Even though you haven't let out your anger about this, you get real ad hominem attacks aimed at you by Tony frequently. I believe this double standard has become completely accepted here in what Craig called the UCD culture. It exists in the rumor mill as well. If you're a right thinking member of the district culture, you get a free pass because of the code of silence. If you're a leader in the UCD culture, you are almost expected to engage in ad hominem attacks against dissenting outsiders. I've been evil, loony, etc long before I came to the list. Questions, opinions, discussions of real issues are simultaneously an offense when wrong thinking people like me and apparently you post them. It's truly incredible to watch, and not so fun to receive. So folks, get out the death ray! Crazy loony, evil, Moyer is at it again. .. UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN [aka laserbeam®] [aka ray] SERIAL LIAR. CALL FOR RATES. __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/805 - Release Date: 5/15/2007 10:47 AM You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well!
Glenn, Could you please explain what you mean by your words in context: 1. tone 2. code of silence (I understand this in police and mob contexts, but not here) 3. the gang (who's in the gang, how do we know it exists, and does it meet?) 4. ban Some freely include tone, or breaking the code of silence if they wish to scold or ban someone from participating when he or she is outside the gang. Thanks, Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity@list.purple.com Sent: Wed, 16 May 2007 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well! - Original Message - From: UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: University City List UnivCity@list.purple.com Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well! I too am in favor of civility on the listserv and have previously pointed out that ad hominem has no place in public discourse or rational debate. still, ad hominem hasn't gone away, and now we get to see yet another form of it: hand-picking which ad hominem messages are scolded and which ad hominem messages are allowed. YOU GO, AD HOMINEM! attacking an opponent's motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain : vicious ad hominem attacks. 2 relating to or associated with a particular person Many people in the district ignore the real definition. Some freely include tone, or breaking the code of silence if they wish to scold or ban someone from participating when he or she is outside the gang. Yet the posts of some folks are almost always ad hominem attacks. If they are in the right thinking gang, they will always get a free pass with this. I have been accused of ad hominem attacks because of my tone and by causing embarrassment to civic association leaders when exposing specific problems. Sometimes the issue or problem would require that I name individuals. This is not the same as ad hominem attacks. Is this a mistake or a tactic? I wonder. The same folks whom have lectured me and called my posts ad hominem have completely ignored the real ad hominem machine that is running all the time. I know I got really frustrated, and believe it or not, had my feelings hurt when people could say that I was crazy, loony, evil, etc, etc while I was so often speaking about real and specific issues or problems. This double standard is so obvious to me. Ray, I'm glad you brought this up on the list. Even though you haven't let out your anger about this, you get real ad hominem attacks aimed at you by Tony frequently. I believe this double standard has become completely accepted here in what Craig called the UCD culture. It exists in the rumor mill as well. If you're a right thinking member of the district culture, you get a free pass because of the code of silence. If you're a leader in the UCD culture, you are almost expected to engage in ad hominem attacks against dissenting outsiders. I've been evil, loony, etc long before I came to the list. Questions, opinions, discussions of real issues are simultaneously an offense when wrong thinking people like me and apparently you post them. It's truly incredible to watch, and not so fun to receive. So folks, get out the death ray! Crazy loony, evil, Moyer is at it again. .. UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN [aka laserbeam®] [aka ray] SERIAL LIAR. CALL FOR RATES. __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/805 - Release Date: 5/15/2007 10:47 AM You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
Re: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks to Liz, Glenn and others for emails over the weekend concerning Liz's chiding about, and Glenn's parody of, my arrest story. I was as surprised as anyone else to see both their original posts, and their turnarounds. I am very much in favor of civility on the listserv. I too am in favor of civility on the listserv and have previously pointed out that ad hominem has no place in public discourse or rational debate. still, ad hominem hasn't gone away, and now we get to see yet another form of it: hand-picking which ad hominem messages are scolded and which ad hominem messages are allowed. YOU GO, AD HOMINEM! .. UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN [aka laserbeam®] [aka ray] SERIAL LIAR. CALL FOR RATES. __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well!
I don't believe you are using the term ad hominem rightly. It is not merely a synonym for insulting. Ad hominem is a flaw in a *logical argument*, not a flaw in courtesy. If you call me a scoundrel, that may be uncivil of you and it may annoy me, but it is not in itself an ad hominem argument. It is when you argue a statement of mine is false merely because I am a scoundrel, that you are propagating an ad hominem logical fallacy. Some scoundrels make false statements, and sometimes they do so because they are scoundrels, but there is no necessary connection between these two facts. Say I am a scoundrel because I sell assault rifles to teenagers by the vanload. If my argument is that teenagers prefer AK-47s to Uzis, I may be an expert witness precisely because I am a scoundrel and thus better informed than decent people on this subject. So calling me a scoundrel -- even accurately -- does not refute my statement. Calling someone an unflattering name can be germane to the argument he or she is making. Paranoid thinking, for instance, is a system of repeated and eventually predictable flaws in ideation. So if you call my argument wrong because it is paranoid, that's not an ad hominem attack if you can show why my thinking matches the knowledgeable definition of paranoia. If it turns out you're just flinging the term around as a careless popular insult, then it would be ad hominem. -- Tony West Ray wrote: I too am in favor of civility on the listserv and have previously pointed out that ad hominem has no place in public discourse or rational debate. still, ad hominem hasn't gone away, and now we get to see yet another form of it: hand-picking which ad hominem messages are scolded and which ad hominem messages are allowed. YOU GO, AD HOMINEM! You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
[UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well!
Thanks to Liz, Glenn and others for emails over the weekend concerning Liz's chiding about, and Glenn's parody of, my arrest story. I was as surprised as anyone else to see both their original posts, and their turnarounds. I am very much in favor of civility on the listserv. As Tony observed last week, we are not only a list community, but a real live place - and a pretty small town, at that. So we do run into each other as real people on the street. And we bring to those live encounters all of the things we've learned about one another on line, where folks are sometimes more strident and overbearing than they might be to near-strangers in person. We establish reputations for ourselves by writing on line. When we write a quick insult on list, it doesn't only go to one individual - the whole list sees how we treat our fellow human beings. The whole list, in effect, judges our interactions. We should all try to remember that and perhaps resist the impulse. Sometimes the urge to be funny, or express frustration, probably shouldn't be indulged. On the other hand, some of us who first became aware of each other because of live disagreements (such as, for me, because of differing opinions on the idea of a local historic district) have now read enough posts from some former opponents to see them as a well-rounded people with whom I agree on many other issues. This, I think, would make future disagreements on a contentious topic between us more civil. So the list has its plusses and minuses, but it is a great way to get out the word quickly - something which took far, far more work in our neighborhood before the listserv existed. I'm staying with it! There's a really important election coming up Tuesday, so if I have any time to write anything more, it will probably be about the election. And at the same time, I'm very busy getting ready for next Sunday's University City Historical Society House Tour, so I don't have time for lunches or worrying about what anybody said about me on the listserv. Good luck to us all! Melani Lamond Melani Lamond, Associate Broker Urban Bye, Realtor 3529 Lancaster Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19104 cell phone 215-356-7266 office phone 215-222-4800, ext. 113 office fax 215-222-1101 ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Re: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well!
Thanks Melani. I felt terrible when I stepped back and considered how badly I might have made you feel. I feel much better by apologizing and getting your reply. Maybe I can join in responsible discussions now that I'm not making a mad dash down Anger Road. Glenn - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: univcity@list.purple.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:42 AM Subject: [UC] Thanks for the emails, but really, all is well! Thanks to Liz, Glenn and others for emails over the weekend concerning Liz's chiding about, and Glenn's parody of, my arrest story. I was as surprised as anyone else to see both their original posts, and their turnarounds. I am very much in favor of civility on the listserv. As Tony observed last week, we are not only a list community, but a real live place - and a pretty small town, at that. So we do run into each other as real people on the street. And we bring to those live encounters all of the things we've learned about one another on line, where folks are sometimes more strident and overbearing than they might be to near-strangers in person. We establish reputations for ourselves by writing on line. When we write a quick insult on list, it doesn't only go to one individual - the whole list sees how we treat our fellow human beings. The whole list, in effect, judges our interactions. We should all try to remember that and perhaps resist the impulse. Sometimes the urge to be funny, or express frustration, probably shouldn't be indulged. On the other hand, some of us who first became aware of each other because of live disagreements (such as, for me, because of differing opinions on the idea of a local historic district) have now read enough posts from some former opponents to see them as a well-rounded people with whom I agree on many other issues. This, I think, would make future disagreements on a contentious topic between us more civil. So the list has its plusses and minuses, but it is a great way to get out the word quickly - something which took far, far more work in our neighborhood before the listserv existed. I'm staying with it! There's a really important election coming up Tuesday, so if I have any time to write anything more, it will probably be about the election. And at the same time, I'm very busy getting ready for next Sunday's University City Historical Society House Tour, so I don't have time for lunches or worrying about what anybody said about me on the listserv. Good luck to us all! Melani Lamond Melani Lamond, Associate Broker Urban Bye, Realtor 3529 Lancaster Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19104 cell phone 215-356-7266 office phone 215-222-4800, ext. 113 office fax 215-222-1101 ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/803 - Release Date: 5/13/2007 12:17 PM
