Re: Keys of a custom property array

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/3/13 11:23 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

I can't at the moment think of how to
run a test that separates these things, but that could be because I've
been working on a bottle of Laphroaig and I'm not about to do anything
with my computer right now other than send out silly emails.


Please continue silly emails. I'm still amused at the one you wrote 
about how yesterday you were tardy.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/3/13 9:37 PM, Monte Goulding wrote:


On 04/03/2013, at 2:21 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:


If you're in the right folder you can:
put url "file:index.html" into tHTML


Yes, but that's one of those cases where LC "helps" you along even
though you're doing wrong.


I don't think so... It's documented as a keyword not a function.


When "URL" was introduced into the language, it was defined as a 
"container". Sort of like a field or a variable. I've never thought of 
it as a function, but the engine might treat it that way.


--
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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Monte Goulding]

On 04/03/2013, at 4:01 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> Hmmm... no.
> 
> If we're not going to treat "url" as a function, then in the statement
> 
> put url "file:xyz"
> 
> url is a container, as in
> 
> "put the contents of the url whose reference is file:xyz"
> 
> and in that case, "file:xyz" is the qualifier of "url".
> But even as a container the BNF syntax is wrong. It makes much more
> sense to ignore the misleading documentation and think of it as a
> function.
> 
> put url("file:xyz")

Hmm... yeah I didn't think that one through enough... what about noun 
adjunct 

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M E R Goulding 
Software development services
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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Mark Wieder]

Pete-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 7:56:53 PM, you wrote:

> Richard,
> I think your explanation of how arrays stored in cprops are translated back
> and forth between internal and external storage explains the the
> performance differences in Mark's tests.

Jacque's tests actually, not mine. I just suggested that there might
be a difference. And even in Jacque's tests it's not quite clear what
the engine is doing under the hood. In the second of her tests, the
one that takes ten times as long, she's explicitly loading the custom
property each time through the loop; while the faster repeat loop is
no doubt using a cached copy. I can't at the moment think of how to
run a test that separates these things, but that could be because I've
been working on a bottle of Laphroaig and I'm not about to do anything
with my computer right now other than send out silly emails.

> I am curious though about your comment on storing multi-dimensional arrays
> in cProps.  Are you saying it's not possible to store multi-dimensaional
> arrays in cProps?  I was hoping to do that in a project I'm about to start
> on.

Multidimensional arrays can most definitely be stored as custom props.
Unraveling them can be a bit weird, but yes.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Monte Goulding]

On 04/03/2013, at 2:55 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

>> I don't think so... It's documented as a keyword not a function.
> 
> OK. That stopped me in my tracks. In that case, the syntax is weirder
> than I previously thought. It *should* IMO be documented as a
> function, but I see all the way back to the 2.0 documentation that
> it's written up as a "keyword". As Richard points out, that puts it in
> the same category as "long" and "onto" and "expanded" and "ticks",
> i.e., the set of all things that are not members of any sets.

As may be inferred from my answer to Richard's post I think it would be better 
to document these as adjective, preposition, adjective, noun rather than just 
keyword.

Cheers

--
M E R Goulding 
Software development services
Bespoke application development for vertical markets

mergExt - There's an external for that!

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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Mark Wieder]

Monte-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 8:47:42 PM, you wrote:


> On 04/03/2013, at 2:36 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

>> > It's documented as a keyword not a function.
>> 
>> "Keyword" is the "Miscellaneous" of programming languages, the
>> box things wind up in when they don't fit into a language's
>> equivalent of The Seven Parts of Speech. ;)

> Isn't it an adjective qualifying the string as a url...

Hmmm... no.

If we're not going to treat "url" as a function, then in the statement

put url "file:xyz"

url is a container, as in

"put the contents of the url whose reference is file:xyz"

and in that case, "file:xyz" is the qualifier of "url".
But even as a container the BNF syntax is wrong. It makes much more
sense to ignore the misleading documentation and think of it as a
function.

put url("file:xyz")

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Weighted Random Number

[dunbarx]

Hi.


Just fiddling around, I tried this in a button, with a field named 
"outputField". The "100" is arbitrary. This might weight too heavily towards 
the middle.



on mouseup
  put 100 into maxval
   repeat maxVal
   
  put weightTheMiddle(random(maxval),maxval/2) & return after accum 
   end repeat
   sort accum numeric
   put accum into fld "outPutField"
end mouseup


function weightTheMiddle var,tMiddle
   put trunc(tMiddle - var) into seed
   if seed = 0 then put 1 into seed
   put random(abs(seed)) into tFactor
   if seed < 0 then
  return var - tFactor
   else
  return var + tFactor
   end if
end weightTheMiddle



-Original Message-
From: Peter W A Wood 
To: How to use LiveCode 
Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2013 9:55 pm
Subject: Re: Weighted Random Number


Roger

A simple method might be:

1. Select a random number between 25 and 200
2. Select a random number between 25 and the random number selected in 
step 1.

This should result with the median of the numbers closer to 25 than 200. You 
could repeat step 3 again if you want to shift the median even nearer to 25.

It may not be mathematically correct but it does seem to offer the benefit of 
being easy to code :-)

Cheers

Peter

On 4 Mar 2013, at 10:14, Roger Guay wrote:

> Thanks, Scott. I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, so let me expand on 
what I'm trying to do: I want a number (25 to 200) of objects randomly 
positioned on the stack/window but favoring the center of the stack/window. 
Would your described method do this for me? Sorry for being slow...
> 
> Cheers,
> Roger
> 
> 
> On Mar 3, 2013, at 7:03 PM, Scott Rossi  wrote:
> 
>> There may be a better mathematical method, but I suppose I would start
>> with the loc of the screen and add some small random offsets to the loc.
>> Then at random times when the loc is calculated, I would add some major
>> offsets to the center loc.  In this way, the center loc is always favored.
>> Of course, I don't know how you're going about the calcs, so this may not
>> work for your situation.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Scott Rossi
>> Creative Director
>> Tactile Media, UX Design
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/3/13 5:46 PM, "Roger Guay"  wrote:
>> 
>>> I suspect this is easy, but I'm not coming up with anything. Can anyone
>>> tell me how to get weighted random numbers in LC? Say I want to position
>>> something on the screen randomly but favor the center of the screen. Any
>>> ideas?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Roger
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Monte Goulding]

On 04/03/2013, at 2:36 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> > It's documented as a keyword not a function.
> 
> "Keyword" is the "Miscellaneous" of programming languages, the box things 
> wind up in when they don't fit into a language's equivalent of The Seven 
> Parts of Speech. ;)

Isn't it an adjective qualifying the string as a url...

--
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Software development services
Bespoke application development for vertical markets

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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Peter Haworth]

Richard,
I think your explanation of how arrays stored in cprops are translated back
and forth between internal and external storage explains the the
performance differences in Mark's tests.

I am curious though about your comment on storing multi-dimensional arrays
in cProps.  Are you saying it's not possible to store multi-dimensaional
arrays in cProps?  I was hoping to do that in a project I'm about to start
on.


Pete
lcSQL Software 


On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Richard Gaskin
wrote:

> It seems there are two types of arrays storable in LC props, what I like
> to call "Natural" and "Unnatural":
>
> "Natural" arrays are one-dimensional, and fit into the traditional view of
> custom props as having one or more property sets, each of which is
> comprised of properties, each of which has a key and a value.
>
> "Unnatural" arrays are what you have when you story any array into a
> custom property value.  I haven't fully tested this theory out, but it
> seems to be that when you store an array into a custom property the engine
> first runs it through arrayEncode, and to access it uses arrayDecode, both
> of which are notoriously slow operations since they require iterating
> through the complete structure to translate it from the
> RAM-address-optimized version of the array in memory and it's simpler
> linear structure for storage.
>
> The difference between the two is why some of the array syntax like "get
> myArray[key1][key2]" can't be used with arrays stored in custom props,
> because in actuality the custom property is only one level deep, and
> anything deeper is emulated through arrayEncode/arrayDecode.
>
> Given this, though I don't have my benchmarks with me at the moment, I
> believe that if you can fit the data you need into the "natural" array
> storage of custom properties and property sets, and use "the customkeys" to
> access those directly from the object record, you should see the most
> minimal impact on both execution time and memory space.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
>  __**__
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
>
> __**_
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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Mark Wieder]

Monte-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 7:37:10 PM, you wrote:


> On 04/03/2013, at 2:21 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

>>> If you're in the right folder you can:
>>> put url "file:index.html" into tHTML
>> 
>> Yes, but that's one of those cases where LC "helps" you along even
>> though you're doing wrong.

> I don't think so... It's documented as a keyword not a function.

OK. That stopped me in my tracks. In that case, the syntax is weirder
than I previously thought. It *should* IMO be documented as a
function, but I see all the way back to the 2.0 documentation that
it's written up as a "keyword". As Richard points out, that puts it in
the same category as "long" and "onto" and "expanded" and "ticks",
i.e., the set of all things that are not members of any sets.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Richard Gaskin]

Monte Goulding wrote:

> It's documented as a keyword not a function.

"Keyword" is the "Miscellaneous" of programming languages, the box 
things wind up in when they don't fit into a language's equivalent of 
The Seven Parts of Speech. ;)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Monte Goulding]

On 04/03/2013, at 2:21 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

>> If you're in the right folder you can:
>> put url "file:index.html" into tHTML
> 
> Yes, but that's one of those cases where LC "helps" you along even
> though you're doing wrong.

I don't think so... It's documented as a keyword not a function.

--
M E R Goulding 
Software development services
Bespoke application development for vertical markets

mergExt - There's an external for that!

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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Richard Gaskin]

It seems there are two types of arrays storable in LC props, what I like 
to call "Natural" and "Unnatural":


"Natural" arrays are one-dimensional, and fit into the traditional view 
of custom props as having one or more property sets, each of which is 
comprised of properties, each of which has a key and a value.


"Unnatural" arrays are what you have when you story any array into a 
custom property value.  I haven't fully tested this theory out, but it 
seems to be that when you store an array into a custom property the 
engine first runs it through arrayEncode, and to access it uses 
arrayDecode, both of which are notoriously slow operations since they 
require iterating through the complete structure to translate it from 
the RAM-address-optimized version of the array in memory and it's 
simpler linear structure for storage.


The difference between the two is why some of the array syntax like "get 
myArray[key1][key2]" can't be used with arrays stored in custom props, 
because in actuality the custom property is only one level deep, and 
anything deeper is emulated through arrayEncode/arrayDecode.


Given this, though I don't have my benchmarks with me at the moment, I 
believe that if you can fit the data you need into the "natural" array 
storage of custom properties and property sets, and use "the customkeys" 
to access those directly from the object record, you should see the most 
minimal impact on both execution time and memory space.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Mark Wieder]

Monte-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 7:08:10 PM, you wrote:

> On 04/03/2013, at 1:44 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

>> Actually, that needs to be in parentheses because url is a function.
>> As in
>> 
>> put url("file:"&it) into tDataStream

> If you're in the right folder you can:
> put url "file:index.html" into tHTML

Yes, but that's one of those cases where LC "helps" you along even
though you're doing wrong.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Peter Haworth]

I've run into other circumstances where using parens makes an expression
yield the correct results.  I can't think of them off the top of my head
but the resukt has been that I probably use an overabundance of parens in
my code so I don't have to worry about things working correctly.  That's
how I stumled on the solution to this - just force of habit.

Actually, as a bonus, I think parens often make the code more readable too.

Pete
lcSQL Software 


On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:18 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 3/3/13 6:25 PM, dunb...@aol.com wrote:
>
>  I am a big fan of forced evaluation.
>>
>> So why doesn't:
>>
>>
>> do "get the keys of the testArray of me"
>>
>> or
>>
>> do "get the keys of" &&  the testArray of me
>>
>> work?
>>
>
> It works if you add the parentheses:
>
>   do "get the keys of (the testArray of me)"
>
> But it's weird. The reason I wrote to the list is because this didn't work
> either:
>
>  put keys(the cArray of me)
>
> which does have the parens. So it never occured to me to use:
>
>  the keys of (the cArray of me)
>
> even though in my mind, that's identical.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
>
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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Monte Goulding]

On 04/03/2013, at 1:44 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> Actually, that needs to be in parentheses because url is a function.
> As in
> 
> put url("file:"&it) into tDataStream

If you're in the right folder you can:
put url "file:index.html" into tHTML

--
M E R Goulding 
Software development services
Bespoke application development for vertical markets

mergExt - There's an external for that!

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Re: Weighted Random Number

[Peter W A Wood]

Roger

A simple method might be:

1. Select a random number between 25 and 200
2. Select a random number between 25 and the random number selected in 
step 1.

This should result with the median of the numbers closer to 25 than 200. You 
could repeat step 3 again if you want to shift the median even nearer to 25.

It may not be mathematically correct but it does seem to offer the benefit of 
being easy to code :-)

Cheers

Peter

On 4 Mar 2013, at 10:14, Roger Guay wrote:

> Thanks, Scott. I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, so let me expand on 
> what I'm trying to do: I want a number (25 to 200) of objects randomly 
> positioned on the stack/window but favoring the center of the stack/window. 
> Would your described method do this for me? Sorry for being slow...
> 
> Cheers,
> Roger
> 
> 
> On Mar 3, 2013, at 7:03 PM, Scott Rossi  wrote:
> 
>> There may be a better mathematical method, but I suppose I would start
>> with the loc of the screen and add some small random offsets to the loc.
>> Then at random times when the loc is calculated, I would add some major
>> offsets to the center loc.  In this way, the center loc is always favored.
>> Of course, I don't know how you're going about the calcs, so this may not
>> work for your situation.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Scott Rossi
>> Creative Director
>> Tactile Media, UX Design
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/3/13 5:46 PM, "Roger Guay"  wrote:
>> 
>>> I suspect this is easy, but I'm not coming up with anything. Can anyone
>>> tell me how to get weighted random numbers in LC? Say I want to position
>>> something on the screen randomly but favor the center of the screen. Any
>>> ideas?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Roger
>>> ___
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Mark Wieder]

Jacque-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 6:30:38 PM, you wrote:

> On 3/3/13 8:08 PM, dunb...@aol.com wrote:

>> Jacque. It just occurred to me that placing the custom property
>> identifier in parentheses does not force an evaluation, it just helps
>> the parser, well, parse.

> I remember when I had trouble getting URL content and was told it had to
> be in parentheses to "force evaluation", so that's what I call it.

>   url ("file:"&it)

> Was many moons ago though. That's MetaCard moons.

Actually, that needs to be in parentheses because url is a function.
As in

put url("file:"&it) into tDataStream

-- 
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 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/3/13 8:08 PM, dunb...@aol.com wrote:


Jacque. It just occurred to me that placing the custom property
identifier in parentheses does not force an evaluation, it just helps
the parser, well, parse.


I remember when I had trouble getting URL content and was told it had to 
be in parentheses to "force evaluation", so that's what I call it.


 url ("file:"&it)

Was many moons ago though. That's MetaCard moons.

--
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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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RE: Weighted Random Number

[Paul D. DeRocco]

> From: Roger Guay
> 
> Thanks, Scott. I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, so 
> let me expand on what I'm trying to do: I want a number (25 
> to 200) of objects randomly positioned on the stack/window 
> but favoring the center of the stack/window. Would your 
> described method do this for me? Sorry for being slow...

You need to devise a simple mathematical function that translates the range
of the basic random number generator into the appropriate range, with a
curve that has a greater slope at the extremes than in the middle.

First, generate a random number with a reasonably big range, subtract the
midpoint of the range to get a bipolar value, and then compute a third-order
polynomial. The zeroth-order coefficient should be the middle pixel value of
the screen, the second-order coefficient should be zero to make it
symmetric, the first-order should be small enough that by itself you'd get a
range that covers only a small portion of the screen, then the third-order
should be sufficient to cover the full width of the screen. You can fiddle
the first- and third-order coefficients to adjust the weighting.

-- 

Ciao,   Paul D. DeRocco
Paulmailto:pdero...@ix.netcom.com 


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/3/13 6:25 PM, dunb...@aol.com wrote:


I am a big fan of forced evaluation.

So why doesn't:

do "get the keys of the testArray of me"

or

do "get the keys of" &&  the testArray of me

work?


It works if you add the parentheses:

  do "get the keys of (the testArray of me)"

But it's weird. The reason I wrote to the list is because this didn't 
work either:


 put keys(the cArray of me)

which does have the parens. So it never occured to me to use:

 the keys of (the cArray of me)

even though in my mind, that's identical.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Weighted Random Number

[Roger Guay]

Thanks, Scott. I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, so let me expand on 
what I'm trying to do: I want a number (25 to 200) of objects randomly 
positioned on the stack/window but favoring the center of the stack/window. 
Would your described method do this for me? Sorry for being slow...

Cheers,
Roger


On Mar 3, 2013, at 7:03 PM, Scott Rossi  wrote:

> There may be a better mathematical method, but I suppose I would start
> with the loc of the screen and add some small random offsets to the loc.
> Then at random times when the loc is calculated, I would add some major
> offsets to the center loc.  In this way, the center loc is always favored.
> Of course, I don't know how you're going about the calcs, so this may not
> work for your situation.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX Design
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/3/13 5:46 PM, "Roger Guay"  wrote:
> 
>> I suspect this is easy, but I'm not coming up with anything. Can anyone
>> tell me how to get weighted random numbers in LC? Say I want to position
>> something on the screen randomly but favor the center of the screen. Any
>> ideas?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Roger
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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[dunbarx]

Mark. Jacque


Mark. The test script I made was in a mouseUp handler in a button, and set a 
custom property of that same button.


Jacque. It just occurred to me that placing the custom property identifier in 
parentheses does not force an evaluation, it just helps the parser, well, parse.


Sort of like the old HC caveat where a card reference had to be similarly 
separated if there was stuff after that reference, or HC would try to identify 
a bogus descriptor. This was most pertinent to card references, whereas other 
objects seemed to be immune.


But this is different, and academic, of course, but still bothers me. There is 
no evaluation with parentheses, though there is with "do". The extra evaluation 
is not needed, but the engine does seem to like parentheses in this instance. I 
know that in other cases, here and there, parentheses do help in getting a 
clean compile, well, just because.


Craig




-Original Message-
From: Mark Wieder 
To: How to use LiveCode 
Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2013 8:41 pm
Subject: Re: Keys of a custom property array


Craig-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 4:25:29 PM, you wrote:

> do "get the keys of the testArray of me"

What's me?

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Weighted Random Number

[Scott Rossi]

There may be a better mathematical method, but I suppose I would start
with the loc of the screen and add some small random offsets to the loc.
Then at random times when the loc is calculated, I would add some major
offsets to the center loc.  In this way, the center loc is always favored.
 Of course, I don't know how you're going about the calcs, so this may not
work for your situation.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, UX Design




On 3/3/13 5:46 PM, "Roger Guay"  wrote:

>I suspect this is easy, but I'm not coming up with anything. Can anyone
>tell me how to get weighted random numbers in LC? Say I want to position
>something on the screen randomly but favor the center of the screen. Any
>ideas?
>
>Thanks,
>Roger
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Weighted Random Number

[Roger Guay]

I suspect this is easy, but I'm not coming up with anything. Can anyone tell me 
how to get weighted random numbers in LC? Say I want to position something on 
the screen randomly but favor the center of the screen. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Roger
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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Mark Wieder]

Craig-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 4:25:29 PM, you wrote:

> do "get the keys of the testArray of me"

What's me?

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Paul Looney]

Roger,

Thank you (my company's name is "Simple Solutions").

I like using "Free" instead of "Community" because "free" is one of the top 
best selling words. It is also shorter.
I think "LiveCode" should always be the first word - and I agree that it should 
be used in all versions.

I miss the old days when we had MetaCard and Transcript - different names for 
the RAD and the language. "LiveCode Code" doesn't cut it for me.

Paul Looney



On Mar 3, 2013, at 5:13 PM, Roger Eller wrote:

> Simple. Professional. Like!
> 
> Sent from my Pipo M2



> On Mar 3, 2013 8:10 PM, "Paul Looney"  wrote:
> 
>> Maybe:
>> LiveCode Free
>> LiveCode Commercial
>> LiveCode Enterprise
>> Paul Looney

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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Roger Eller]

Simple. Professional. Like!

Sent from my Pipo M2
On Mar 3, 2013 8:10 PM, "Paul Looney"  wrote:

> Maybe:
> LiveCode Free
> LiveCode Commercial
> LiveCode Enterprise
> Paul Looney
>
> On Mar 3, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Roger Eller wrote:
>
> > LiveCode OpenSource Edition
> > LiveCode Free Edition
> > LiveCode Kickstarted Edition
> > LiveCode Education Edition
> > LiveCode My Edition
> > LiveCode Sauce Bottle Edition
> > On Mar 3, 2013 5:26 PM, "Colin Holgate"  wrote:
> >
> >> And it would be too similar, at a glance, to LiveCode Commercial
> Edition.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 3, 2013, at 5:09 PM, Richmond 
> wrote:
> >>
>  I believe the community edition of LiveCode is called "LiveCode
> >> Community Edition".
> 
> >>>
> >>> Is that official?
> >>>
> >>> And does what is a bit of a mouthful have an abbreviated form?
> >>
> >> ___
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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Paul Looney]

Maybe:
LiveCode Free
LiveCode Commercial
LiveCode Enterprise
Paul Looney

On Mar 3, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Roger Eller wrote:

> LiveCode OpenSource Edition
> LiveCode Free Edition
> LiveCode Kickstarted Edition
> LiveCode Education Edition
> LiveCode My Edition
> LiveCode Sauce Bottle Edition
> On Mar 3, 2013 5:26 PM, "Colin Holgate"  wrote:
> 
>> And it would be too similar, at a glance, to LiveCode Commercial Edition.
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 3, 2013, at 5:09 PM, Richmond  wrote:
>> 
 I believe the community edition of LiveCode is called "LiveCode
>> Community Edition".
 
>>> 
>>> Is that official?
>>> 
>>> And does what is a bit of a mouthful have an abbreviated form?
>> 
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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[dunbarx]

Mark, Jacque.


I am a big fan of forced evaluation.


So why doesn't:


do "get the keys of the testArray of me"


or


do "get the keys of" &&  the testArray of me


work?


Craig
 
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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Roger Eller]

On Mar 3, 2013 5:28 PM, "Richard Gaskin" wrote:
>
> Roger Eller wrote:
>
> > I really wish that Apple would at least allow an open source
> > fork of OS X so people can choose their own hardware.
>
> A few years ago I discovered that there are more hardware options in the
world than just six models. ;)

Wink acknowledged, but...  OS X "Community Edition"  has identified
exactly what works, and what doesn't.  An open edition from Apple could
clearly state that the hardware must be in the list of validated equipment.
Otherwise, they community must create additional drivers (kexts), as they
are currently doing.

>
> Thankfully Linux is more than up to the task, with as many options
available for how you like your OS as there are to fit your specific
hardware preferences.

The missing task on Linux, for me at least, is Netflix. iGotta have it!  :-)

> Speaking of hardware, I have great respect for Intel but their list price
for their NUC is way too high - NewEgg sell's em for less, and they also
have a wide range of other case and CPU combos on their mini-barebones
category:
>
> <
http://www.newegg.com/Mini-Booksize-Barebone-Systems/SubCategory/ID-309?Order=PRICE
>
>

Sadly, most of the alternative mini hardware options wouldn't make the cut
on the compatibility list. Apple's use of Intel i3, i5, i7 cpu's is really
a major part of the modern hackintosh. The key is to use what Apple uses,
and it 'just works'.

>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web

~Roger
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Re: Two Windows

[Timothy Miller]

On Mar 3, 2013, at 10:57 AM, J. Landman Gay  wrote:
> 
> Nothing will happen to the file on disk until you save it. Remember that 
> stacks exist only in memory until they're saved. Copy 1 of LiveCode won't 
> know a thing about the changes you made in Copy 2. The dangerous part is when 
> you save to disk in one copy and don't reload the other copy. If you keep 
> saving changes across both copies, each change will overwrite the other.



That's very clear. I get it now.

Thanks also to Peter, Peter and David.

Tim Miller
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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Richard Gaskin]

Monte Golding wrote:

> When you refer to MySQL do you say MySQL Community Edition?

Now that MySQL is owned by Larry Ellison, when people are referring to 
the community edition they say "MariaDB".


;)

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Monte Goulding]

On 04/03/2013, at 9:09 AM, Richmond wrote:

> On 03/04/2013 12:01 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> I believe the community edition of LiveCode is called "LiveCode Community 
>> Edition".
>> 
> 
> Is that official?
> 
> And does what is a bit of a mouthful have an abbreviated form?

When you refer to MySQL do you say MySQL Community Edition? Or just MySQL. 
That's why originally said just LiveCode because we should all keep calling it 
LiveCode so RunRev get the best marketing advantage they can out of it. In the 
end the only difference is going to be a license and in the scheme of things a 
relatively minor feature.

Cheers

--
M E R Goulding 
Software development services
Bespoke application development for vertical markets

mergExt - There's an external for that!

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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Roger Eller]

LiveCode OpenSource Edition
LiveCode Free Edition
LiveCode Kickstarted Edition
LiveCode Education Edition
LiveCode My Edition
LiveCode Sauce Bottle Edition
 On Mar 3, 2013 5:26 PM, "Colin Holgate"  wrote:

> And it would be too similar, at a glance, to LiveCode Commercial Edition.
>
>
> On Mar 3, 2013, at 5:09 PM, Richmond  wrote:
>
> >> I believe the community edition of LiveCode is called "LiveCode
> Community Edition".
> >>
> >
> > Is that official?
> >
> > And does what is a bit of a mouthful have an abbreviated form?
>
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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Richard Gaskin]

Roger Eller wrote:

> I really wish that Apple would at least allow an open source
> fork of OS X so people can choose their own hardware.

A few years ago I discovered that there are more hardware options in the 
world than just six models. ;)


I love the security, robustness, and resource-friendliness of POSIX 
systems like OS X, but I also like to take full advantage of the wide 
variety of hardware options in the modern world, in which by now most 
people understand that computers are commodities.


Thankfully Linux is more than up to the task, with as many options 
available for how you like your OS as there are to fit your specific 
hardware preferences.


If Apple had a wider range of things for me to choose among I might not 
have branched out.  But it's turned out well so I say, "Thanks, Steve, 
for responding to our requests for choice by showing us the door, since 
on the other side I found Linux."


:)

Speaking of hardware, I have great respect for Intel but their list 
price for their NUC is way too high - NewEgg sell's em for less, and 
they also have a wide range of other case and CPU combos on their 
mini-barebones category:





--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Colin Holgate]

And it would be too similar, at a glance, to LiveCode Commercial Edition.


On Mar 3, 2013, at 5:09 PM, Richmond  wrote:

>> I believe the community edition of LiveCode is called "LiveCode Community 
>> Edition".
>> 
> 
> Is that official?
> 
> And does what is a bit of a mouthful have an abbreviated form?

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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Peter M. Brigham]

On Mar 3, 2013, at 1:22 PM, Richmond wrote:

> On 03/03/2013 07:44 PM, Roger Eller wrote:
>> I only suggest that they allow an unsupported fork because 'support' for
>> all that crazy PC hardware is the typical answer for why Apple doesn't do
>> this.
>> 
> 
> I don't believe Apple.
> 
> I think the reason they will not allow people to install Mac OS X on 
> non-Apple computers
> is because Apple computers are very expensive, and once they allow people to 
> install their OS on
> other hardware they fear people will stop buying their machines.
> 
> That is exactly why I bought Mac OS 10.6 and run it inside VMware Player in a 
> second hand DELL Optiplex 745
> with 6 Gigs of RAM, which cost me, in total, 300 Euros . . .
> 
> ( 100 for the computer, 100 for another 4 Gigs of RAM, 100 for the 
> wide-screen monitor )
> 
> . . . and exactly why Apple don't like people like me, because a 
> bottom-of-the range 21.5 inch iMac costs
> about 1,269 Euros.
> 
> I don't expect an support from Apple; which is just as well, as they won't 
> give me anything except a boot
> up the nether regions!
> 
> Richmond.

While the profit motive should never be dismissed, I actually think that Roger 
is correct. Steve Jobs was a fanatic perfectionist and wanted the user 
experience to be as close to "it just works" as possible. Although the Mac OSes 
have some bugs, and a system crash is possible, it is rare (especially in 
recent OS versions that sandbox applications to allow force quitting). The 
advantage of the Mac system has historically been that it has been free of the 
"WTF do I do to get Windows xxx to run on my machine" problems, and the 
intricacies of getting a particular Unix flavor to run some apps. Jobs wanted 
the system to work not just for folks who knew how to tinker with the 
machinery. Developers have had to work harder to bring things to the Mac 
platform because they have been forced to jump through the Apple hoops to 
ensure compatibility with the OS, and Jobs' pit-bull grip on the product design 
was the reason for that. And many users have been willing to pay more because 
of the consistency of the user experience.

Although… with the advent of Lion we now have the dumbing down and limitation 
of the OS to an unacceptable degree, IMO, forbidding certain tinkering with the 
machinery even for those who know how and prefer different ways of operating. 
It feels to me that Tim Cook has allowed the vision to slip. I'm sticking with 
Mountain Lion for as long as I can.

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
pmb...@gmail.com
http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig


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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Richmond]

On 03/04/2013 12:01 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
I believe the community edition of LiveCode is called "LiveCode 
Community Edition".




Is that official?

And does what is a bit of a mouthful have an abbreviated form?

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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Richard Gaskin]

I believe the community edition of LiveCode is called "LiveCode 
Community Edition".


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/3/13 1:44 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

Jacque-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 11:20:38 AM, you wrote:


Assuming speed isn't an issue either way, any idea which would be more
memory-efficient?


No idea. We'd have to know how and when the engine handles garbage
collection. If you see significant speed differences in the different
methods, then my guess would be the engine making a working copy of
the array. But whether it marks the copy as not in use after that or
whether it remains in a cache is a mystery, at least until the FOSS
release of the engine code.



So I loaded in a 900-key array, total size on disk of about 200K. Did this:

on test1
  put the milliseconds into tStart
  repeat 1
put the keys of (the cArray of me) into tKeys
  end repeat
  put "test1:" && the milliseconds - tStart
end test1

on test2
  put the milliseconds into tStart
  repeat 1
get the cArray of me
put the keys of it into tKeys
  end repeat
  put "test2:" && the milliseconds - tStart
end test2

Test 1 = 450
Test 2 = 4946

I'm not sure what it means, but getting only the keys is way faster.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Peter Haworth]

Or FreeCode.
Pete
lcSQL Software 


On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Roger Eller wrote:

> How about "HyperCard"?  
> On Mar 3, 2013 12:04 PM, "Colin Holgate"  wrote:
>
> > AliveAndWellCode perhaps?
> >
> >
> >
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Kill quit process

[Thomas McGrath III]

I am trying to quit another application that I launched from LC when my 
standalone quits. Kill seems acceptable since the other app has no clean up 
etc. -- I'm even thinking with extreme prejudice might be appropriate for this 
app. I have both a Mac and Windows versions of the other app: MyApp.app & 
MyApp.exe

Two questions come to mind:
Will:  kill 9 process "MyApp.app" which should work on the Mac also work on 
windows if I change it to: kill 9 process "MyApp.exe"

What does this command do?: kill QUIT process it
Is it like: kill QUIT process "MyApp.app" or kill QUIT process "MyApp.exe"

I think the QUIT is a unix signalName and as such is ignored on Mac OS so 
should I just use: kill process "MyApp.app" 

Thanks

-- Tom McGrath III
http://lazyriver.on-rev.com
mcgra...@mac.com


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Mark Wieder]

Jacque-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 11:20:38 AM, you wrote:

> Assuming speed isn't an issue either way, any idea which would be more
> memory-efficient?

No idea. We'd have to know how and when the engine handles garbage
collection. If you see significant speed differences in the different
methods, then my guess would be the engine making a working copy of
the array. But whether it marks the copy as not in use after that or
whether it remains in a cache is a mystery, at least until the FOSS
release of the engine code.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/3/13 1:02 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:


Is your goal to save the time/resources of putting the array into a
variable and then extracting the keys, or is it to save a couple of
extra lines of code? Are you sure that the engine doesn't make a copy
of the array under the hood and then extract the keys using either the
customKeys or parenthesis methods?



No clue at all how it really works under the hood, but my goal was to 
preserve memory. The array doesn't have a huge number of keys, but their 
values are fairly large. The project uses lots and lots of memory-hungry 
resources and will often be run on machines with minimum RAM, so 
avoiding swaps to virtual memory is desirable.


So I was thinking that grabbing the keys directly from the property 
might save some RAM over making a temporary copy of the whole array in a 
variable, especially since I need to get the data repeatedly on, alas, 
mousemove. So it's going to get hit on a whole lot.


I am going to run some speed tests now that I see how to get the keys. I 
may end up staying with my current method, which is to load the keys 
into a script local only once and hit on that instead.


Assuming speed isn't an issue either way, any idea which would be more 
memory-efficient?


--
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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Mark Wieder]

Bernard-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 4:50:03 AM, you wrote:

> About 13 years ago I bought a small form factor PC that's the same
> size/shape as the Mac Mini.  I still have it stored away somewhere.  It was
> far easier to take to work than a laptop, as with no keyboard or screen, it
> weighed a fraction of what a laptop weighed back then.

We've got a Dell zino 410. Mac mini footprint (~twice as high) and I
dropped a dual-core processor and a 2TB HD into it. Dell pulled them
off the market pretty fast - I think they were having overheating
problems with some, but it's been a great little workhorse machine.
You can find barebones units on eBay for ~$100 if you need a Windows
computer.

-- 
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 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Mark Wieder]

Roger-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 10:39:19 AM, you wrote:

> why not install Windows as the primary OS, and confine
> OS X to the relm of virtualization?

Ha! OSX with all the stability of Windows! 

-- 
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 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Mark Wieder]

Richmond-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 1:00:05 AM, you wrote:

> This makes me think of cheap inkjet printers: I bought an all-in-one,
> and my EFL school now spends twice
> the price of the thing on ink cartridges each month.

I swore off inkjet printers quite a while ago (around the time they
started giving them away for free with other purchases). We've got two
laser printers now (one color, one all-in-one: print,fax,copy). If you
know the right tricks, the laser toner cartridges are refillable and
reusable. And they don't dry out and there are no jets to clog. I
don't think we paid more than $150 for either one.

-- 
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 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[Mark Wieder]

Jacque-

Sunday, March 3, 2013, 10:24:35 AM, you wrote:

> On 3/3/13 12:37 AM, Peter Haworth wrote:
>> Hi Jacque,
>> I just tried:
>>
>> get the keys of (the uArray of button "xyz")
>>
>> ... and got the keys of uArray.

> Cool. Thanks. I'd been through all the permutations that Craig posted,
> and I also had tried parentheses, but those were included in a nested
> function. I should have parenthesized the array reference separately.
> Forced evaluation comes through again.

Is your goal to save the time/resources of putting the array into a
variable and then extracting the keys, or is it to save a couple of
extra lines of code? Are you sure that the engine doesn't make a copy
of the array under the hood and then extract the keys using either the
customKeys or parenthesis methods?

-- 
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 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Roger Eller]

How about "HyperCard"?  
On Mar 3, 2013 12:04 PM, "Colin Holgate"  wrote:

> AliveAndWellCode perhaps?
>
>
>
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Re: Two Windows

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/3/13 12:28 AM, Timothy Miller wrote:


Do you mean to say I can have the same stack open in two copies of
LiveCode, resulting in two windows? Are two copies of the same
version of LiveCode okay?

This sounds wrong, but who am I to say? I assumed I would get a "file
in use" error if I tried to open the same stack with a second copy of
LiveCode.


You can have any number of LiveCode engines open at the same time, and 
they can all open the same stack. You won't get any errors, but that's 
why it's dangerous -- it is very easy to overwrite the stack with 
changes from a different engine.




Let's say I go to card 10 in one window, go to card 20 in the other
window. I cut some text from a field on card 10, bring the other
window to the top, paste the text into a field on card 20…

This will work? The cut stays cut, the paste stays pasted? No
problems? I don't end up with two copies of the same stack?


Nothing will happen to the file on disk until you save it. Remember that 
stacks exist only in memory until they're saved. Copy 1 of LiveCode 
won't know a thing about the changes you made in Copy 2. The dangerous 
part is when you save to disk in one copy and don't reload the other 
copy. If you keep saving changes across both copies, each change will 
overwrite the other.


I've lost data that way which is why I said it gets iffy. In general I 
consider one copy to be a scratchpad. I copy stuff from there, make 
temporary changes to see how they look, do other stuff I don't intend to 
save. Your cut and paste idea wouldn't work too well here because 
nothing would be cut from the "master" copy.


When it's time to close the temp stack, do NOT save it. Only save your 
master copy to disk.


Here's an even iffier way to do it: Sometimes I make changes to the temp 
copy that I decide I want to keep. That's where the save and reload 
procedure is handy, but you do need to be careful you aren't overwriting 
changes from the other copy. The "revert" command is handy to reload a 
stack from disk without having to close and reopen it. If the stack has 
been saved in Copy 1, click over to Copy 2, issue "revert" from the 
message box, and the Copy 1 changes will show up in Copy 2. "Revert" 
just means "reload this file from disk."


I position the two open copies of the stack in different places so that 
visually I always know which one I'm working on, and it's easy to click 
back and forth between them. (Which is why, for how I work, using 
separate desktop spaces wouldn't work too well.)


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Richmond]

On 03/03/2013 08:39 PM, Roger Eller wrote:

I had a super-crazy idea once. It remains untested, but imagine a user who
uses 90% Windows software, and 10% Mac software. If that user has a REAL
made by Apple Mac, why not install Windows as the primary OS, and confine
OS X to the relm of virtualization?


I know at least one person who has a MacBook Pro on which they only have 
Windows 7;


why, forbye? because they are both a poser and a sheep:

they can pose that they have a Mac, but they want to conform to peer 
pressure and run Windows.


Needless to say, this is a 17 bubble-brain rather than anyone very 
interested in programming.



Why? Because Apple says no, as it would
reduce the performance of their OS, and ruin that 'oh so special'
experience.


I have what once was a G4 Mac that went 'pop'; so I hollowed the thing 
out and fitted 8 old PATA
hard disks ranging in size from 80 GB to 750 GB salvaged from 'broken' 
computers that were either
given to me or found next to rubbish bins (always carry a screwdriver in 
your pocket) linked via
ATA-to-USB cables to a USB hub that I can plug into whatever computer I 
happen to be using at the time.


That date-box is 'oh so special', but probably violates all sorts of 
EULAs as to what I can do with the

box and power supply of a popped Mac.


On Mar 3, 2013 1:27 PM, "Roger Eller"  wrote:


What is the performance like in a VM on old hardware? Wouldn't it be
faster if installed directly in a partition?
On Mar 3, 2013 1:22 PM, "Richmond"  wrote:


On 03/03/2013 07:44 PM, Roger Eller wrote:


I only suggest that they allow an unsupported fork because 'support' for
all that crazy PC hardware is the typical answer for why Apple doesn't do
this.



I don't believe Apple.

I think the reason they will not allow people to install Mac OS X on
non-Apple computers
is because Apple computers are very expensive, and once they allow people
to install their OS on
other hardware they fear people will stop buying their machines.

That is exactly why I bought Mac OS 10.6 and run it inside VMware Player
in a second hand DELL Optiplex 745
with 6 Gigs of RAM, which cost me, in total, 300 Euros . . .

( 100 for the computer, 100 for another 4 Gigs of RAM, 100 for the
wide-screen monitor )

. . . and exactly why Apple don't like people like me, because a
bottom-of-the range 21.5 inch iMac costs
about 1,269 Euros.

I don't expect an support from Apple; which is just as well, as they
won't give me anything except a boot
up the nether regions!

Richmond.

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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Richmond]

On 03/03/2013 08:27 PM, Roger Eller wrote:

What is the performance like in a VM on old hardware? Wouldn't it be faster
if installed directly in a partition?


It runs really very well indeed for Livecode development.

I do nothing else whatsoever on the Faux Mac; all my graphic processing and
font development is done on the underlying UbuntuStudio.

The underlying machine has these specs:

Intel Core2 6300 @ 1.82 GHz  5.8 GB RAM

Hardware virtualisation is enabled in the BIOS.

The Mac OS 10.6.8 inside VMware has 3 GB RAM allotted to it, and its own
system specifications says that it is:

4.30 GHz Intel Core 2 Solo

Quite how it arrives at that bizarre 4.3 GHz escapes me.

---

As to installing in a partition: I have tried that and, frankly found 
those Hackintosh recipes

too much like hard work.

As I own a Mac OS 10.6 install DVD I felt no moral problem about 
downloading a pre-installed
VMware image with 10.6 pre-installed, so saving myself an awful lot of 
headaches.


---

To be quite honest, I'm not just that sure that if I had a disposable 
1,300 Euros I would bother
to spend it on a Mac; as Linux has come of age it seems that that sort 
of money for a computer

is not really justified.

The ONLY software I have paid for in the last 10 years is Livecode and 
about 3 system install disks
for Macintosh: Open Source software is now of such a high calibre I do 
not require any other

commercial product.

The only reason I continue to use any form of modern Macintosh at all is 
because, right now,
Mac standalones made on Windows or Linux don't function properly on 
Macintosh computers.


--- something that I hope will be addressed with some sense of urgency 
by RunRev ---




On Mar 3, 2013 1:22 PM, "Richmond"  wrote:


On 03/03/2013 07:44 PM, Roger Eller wrote:


I only suggest that they allow an unsupported fork because 'support' for
all that crazy PC hardware is the typical answer for why Apple doesn't do
this.



I don't believe Apple.

I think the reason they will not allow people to install Mac OS X on
non-Apple computers
is because Apple computers are very expensive, and once they allow people
to install their OS on
other hardware they fear people will stop buying their machines.

That is exactly why I bought Mac OS 10.6 and run it inside VMware Player
in a second hand DELL Optiplex 745
with 6 Gigs of RAM, which cost me, in total, 300 Euros . . .

( 100 for the computer, 100 for another 4 Gigs of RAM, 100 for the
wide-screen monitor )

. . . and exactly why Apple don't like people like me, because a
bottom-of-the range 21.5 inch iMac costs
about 1,269 Euros.

I don't expect an support from Apple; which is just as well, as they won't
give me anything except a boot
up the nether regions!

Richmond.

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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Roger Eller]

I had a super-crazy idea once. It remains untested, but imagine a user who
uses 90% Windows software, and 10% Mac software. If that user has a REAL
made by Apple Mac, why not install Windows as the primary OS, and confine
OS X to the relm of virtualization? Why? Because Apple says no, as it would
reduce the performance of their OS, and ruin that 'oh so special'
experience.
On Mar 3, 2013 1:27 PM, "Roger Eller"  wrote:

> What is the performance like in a VM on old hardware? Wouldn't it be
> faster if installed directly in a partition?
> On Mar 3, 2013 1:22 PM, "Richmond"  wrote:
>
>> On 03/03/2013 07:44 PM, Roger Eller wrote:
>>
>>> I only suggest that they allow an unsupported fork because 'support' for
>>> all that crazy PC hardware is the typical answer for why Apple doesn't do
>>> this.
>>>
>>>
>> I don't believe Apple.
>>
>> I think the reason they will not allow people to install Mac OS X on
>> non-Apple computers
>> is because Apple computers are very expensive, and once they allow people
>> to install their OS on
>> other hardware they fear people will stop buying their machines.
>>
>> That is exactly why I bought Mac OS 10.6 and run it inside VMware Player
>> in a second hand DELL Optiplex 745
>> with 6 Gigs of RAM, which cost me, in total, 300 Euros . . .
>>
>> ( 100 for the computer, 100 for another 4 Gigs of RAM, 100 for the
>> wide-screen monitor )
>>
>> . . . and exactly why Apple don't like people like me, because a
>> bottom-of-the range 21.5 inch iMac costs
>> about 1,269 Euros.
>>
>> I don't expect an support from Apple; which is just as well, as they
>> won't give me anything except a boot
>> up the nether regions!
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
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>> subscription preferences:
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>
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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Roger Eller]

What is the performance like in a VM on old hardware? Wouldn't it be faster
if installed directly in a partition?
On Mar 3, 2013 1:22 PM, "Richmond"  wrote:

> On 03/03/2013 07:44 PM, Roger Eller wrote:
>
>> I only suggest that they allow an unsupported fork because 'support' for
>> all that crazy PC hardware is the typical answer for why Apple doesn't do
>> this.
>>
>>
> I don't believe Apple.
>
> I think the reason they will not allow people to install Mac OS X on
> non-Apple computers
> is because Apple computers are very expensive, and once they allow people
> to install their OS on
> other hardware they fear people will stop buying their machines.
>
> That is exactly why I bought Mac OS 10.6 and run it inside VMware Player
> in a second hand DELL Optiplex 745
> with 6 Gigs of RAM, which cost me, in total, 300 Euros . . .
>
> ( 100 for the computer, 100 for another 4 Gigs of RAM, 100 for the
> wide-screen monitor )
>
> . . . and exactly why Apple don't like people like me, because a
> bottom-of-the range 21.5 inch iMac costs
> about 1,269 Euros.
>
> I don't expect an support from Apple; which is just as well, as they won't
> give me anything except a boot
> up the nether regions!
>
> Richmond.
>
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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/3/13 12:37 AM, Peter Haworth wrote:

Hi Jacque,
I just tried:

get the keys of (the uArray of button "xyz")

... and got the keys of uArray.


Cool. Thanks. I'd been through all the permutations that Craig posted, 
and I also had tried parentheses, but those were included in a nested 
function. I should have parenthesized the array reference separately. 
Forced evaluation comes through again.


--
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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Richmond]

On 03/03/2013 07:44 PM, Roger Eller wrote:

I only suggest that they allow an unsupported fork because 'support' for
all that crazy PC hardware is the typical answer for why Apple doesn't do
this.



I don't believe Apple.

I think the reason they will not allow people to install Mac OS X on 
non-Apple computers
is because Apple computers are very expensive, and once they allow 
people to install their OS on

other hardware they fear people will stop buying their machines.

That is exactly why I bought Mac OS 10.6 and run it inside VMware Player 
in a second hand DELL Optiplex 745

with 6 Gigs of RAM, which cost me, in total, 300 Euros . . .

( 100 for the computer, 100 for another 4 Gigs of RAM, 100 for the 
wide-screen monitor )


. . . and exactly why Apple don't like people like me, because a 
bottom-of-the range 21.5 inch iMac costs

about 1,269 Euros.

I don't expect an support from Apple; which is just as well, as they 
won't give me anything except a boot

up the nether regions!

Richmond.

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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Roger Eller]

I only suggest that they allow an unsupported fork because 'support' for
all that crazy PC hardware is the typical answer for why Apple doesn't do
this.
On Mar 3, 2013 12:35 PM, "Richmond"  wrote:

> On 03/03/2013 07:15 PM, Roger Eller wrote:
>
>> I really wish that Apple would at least allow an open source fork of OS X
>> so people can choose their own hardware.
>>
>
> There doesn't have to be an Open Source fork; if installing Mac OS X is
> comparatively easy to install on a machine such as the NUC
>
> and the necessary patches are "out there",  then, surely, Apple's software
> people could just put various install DVDs together
> for non-Apple machines together and sell them.
>
> Considering that people are already doing "that", and others are doing
> "that" via virtualisation solutions (myself
> included) Apple, by not doing that, are just losing potential revenue.
>
>  It's obviously compatible (with a
>> little effort). I enjoy checking out the cool custom built 'Macs' on this
>> site:
>>
>> http://www.tonymacx86.com/**user-builds/86370-success-**
>> syngatesfan200s-intel-nuc-**dc3217by-thunderbolt-edition-**
>> non-thunderbolt-edition.html
>>
>> I don't don't support software piracy. The custom built machines on the
>> aforementioned site always use retail installation media, and it is
>> discouraged to do otherwise.
>>
>
> The problem is not one of software piracy, but one of EULAs (this has been
> discussed hereabouts several times).
>
> Personally I am all in favour of Copyright for those who want to copyright
> their stuff (and there is Copyleft and so on for those
> who don't), but think EULAs are horrible:
>
> after all, you don't hang a murderer because he used a kitchen knife that
> was marked "for kitchen use only" because he
> used the knife in the bedroom, but because he killed his wife with it.
>
> But then the whole thing revolves around concepts of ownership: I have a
> collection of Mac install disks (and a few Windows ones)
> lying around my properties; and, unlike the combs, hairbrushes, shirts and
> trousers, according to EULAs they are not mine, and the people
> I thought I bought them from (but the answer is they "licensed them to
> me") I can only do a small subset of possible things with them.
>
> As possession is 9 tenths of the law that is hard to enforce [for instance
> I know an architect who works in Berlin whose whole office runs bog-standard
> Intel PCs running Mac OS X as per your 'NUC' link], but it is used to
> bully and intimidate people into being "good little boys and girls".
>
>
> As I said before (approximately) if I want to play cricket with a frying
> pan no EULA "only for cooking" attached to the frying pan is going to stop
> me.
>
> But then, again, I don't live in one of the Western creeping-corporate
> police states such as Britain.
>
> Richmond.
>
>  On Mar 3, 2013 3:36 AM, "Richmond"  wrote:
>>
>>  "Startlingly original":
>>>
>>> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/**
>>> desktop-motherboards/next-unit-computing-introduction.html<
>>> http://www.intel.com/**content/www/us/en/**motherboards/desktop-**
>>> motherboards/next-unit-**computing-introduction.html
>>> >
>>>
>>> Notwithstanding; I want one!
>>>
>>> Richmond.
>>>
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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Richmond]

On 03/03/2013 07:15 PM, Roger Eller wrote:

I really wish that Apple would at least allow an open source fork of OS X
so people can choose their own hardware.


There doesn't have to be an Open Source fork; if installing Mac OS X is 
comparatively easy to install on a machine such as the NUC


and the necessary patches are "out there",  then, surely, Apple's 
software people could just put various install DVDs together

for non-Apple machines together and sell them.

Considering that people are already doing "that", and others are doing 
"that" via virtualisation solutions (myself

included) Apple, by not doing that, are just losing potential revenue.


It's obviously compatible (with a
little effort). I enjoy checking out the cool custom built 'Macs' on this
site:

http://www.tonymacx86.com/user-builds/86370-success-syngatesfan200s-intel-nuc-dc3217by-thunderbolt-edition-non-thunderbolt-edition.html

I don't don't support software piracy. The custom built machines on the
aforementioned site always use retail installation media, and it is
discouraged to do otherwise.


The problem is not one of software piracy, but one of EULAs (this has 
been discussed hereabouts several times).


Personally I am all in favour of Copyright for those who want to 
copyright their stuff (and there is Copyleft and so on for those

who don't), but think EULAs are horrible:

after all, you don't hang a murderer because he used a kitchen knife 
that was marked "for kitchen use only" because he

used the knife in the bedroom, but because he killed his wife with it.

But then the whole thing revolves around concepts of ownership: I have a 
collection of Mac install disks (and a few Windows ones)
lying around my properties; and, unlike the combs, hairbrushes, shirts 
and trousers, according to EULAs they are not mine, and the people
I thought I bought them from (but the answer is they "licensed them to 
me") I can only do a small subset of possible things with them.


As possession is 9 tenths of the law that is hard to enforce [for 
instance I know an architect who works in Berlin whose whole office runs 
bog-standard
Intel PCs running Mac OS X as per your 'NUC' link], but it is used to 
bully and intimidate people into being "good little boys and girls".



As I said before (approximately) if I want to play cricket with a frying 
pan no EULA "only for cooking" attached to the frying pan is going to 
stop me.


But then, again, I don't live in one of the Western creeping-corporate 
police states such as Britain.


Richmond.


On Mar 3, 2013 3:36 AM, "Richmond"  wrote:


"Startlingly original":

http://www.intel.com/content/**www/us/en/motherboards/**
desktop-motherboards/next-**unit-computing-introduction.**html

Notwithstanding; I want one!

Richmond.

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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Roger Eller]

I really wish that Apple would at least allow an open source fork of OS X
so people can choose their own hardware. It's obviously compatible (with a
little effort). I enjoy checking out the cool custom built 'Macs' on this
site:

http://www.tonymacx86.com/user-builds/86370-success-syngatesfan200s-intel-nuc-dc3217by-thunderbolt-edition-non-thunderbolt-edition.html

I don't don't support software piracy. The custom built machines on the
aforementioned site always use retail installation media, and it is
discouraged to do otherwise.
On Mar 3, 2013 3:36 AM, "Richmond"  wrote:

> "Startlingly original":
>
> http://www.intel.com/content/**www/us/en/motherboards/**
> desktop-motherboards/next-**unit-computing-introduction.**html
>
> Notwithstanding; I want one!
>
> Richmond.
>
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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Colin Holgate]

AliveAndWellCode perhaps?



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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Richmond]

On 03/03/2013 06:45 PM, Jim Kanter wrote:

Maybe OpenCode?
___

A quick Google search will show you that that has been taken a good 
half-a-dozen times already.


Just as long as it is not 'DeadCode' I'm not that fussy.

Richmond.

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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Jim Kanter]

Maybe OpenCode?
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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Roger Eller]

Oops, meant LCatryi.

~Roger
On Mar 3, 2013 11:16 AM, "Roger Eller"  wrote:

> LCIi is just the abbreviated form of "LiveCode I imagine". It's not
> LCartyi.  ;-)
>
> ~Roger
>
> On 03/03/2013, at 11:22 AM, Roger Eller 
> wrote:
>
> > Do we also refer to it as LCIi?
>
> I only said I imagine not all the rest y'all imagine Make up your own
> name for your own fork ;-)
>
> --
> Monte Goulding
>
> M E R Goulding - software development services
> mergExt - There's an external for that!
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Roger Eller]

LCIi is just the abbreviated form of "LiveCode I imagine". It's not
LCartyi.  ;-)

~Roger

On 03/03/2013, at 11:22 AM, Roger Eller  wrote:

> Do we also refer to it as LCIi?

I only said I imagine not all the rest y'all imagine Make up your own
name for your own fork ;-)

--
Monte Goulding

M E R Goulding - software development services
mergExt - There's an external for that!





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Re: Two Windows

[Peter M. Brigham]

On Mar 2, 2013, at 7:19 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 3/2/13 5:59 PM, stephen barncard wrote:
>> one can create a copy of Livecode and run each version (name it Livecode B
>> or something) in a different space, yet cut and paste between.   No name
>> space conflicts this way!
> 
> I do that all the time, only my second copy is using the MetaCard IDE. I keep 
> both open routinely. It works fine. Sometimes I also have LiveCode 5.0.2 
> running for legacy reasons. And if I'm trying out the latest pre-release, 
> sometimes I have four copies of the engine running.
> 
> It can get iffy if you get them confused.

Maybe you could put "on resume" and "on suspend" handlers in the frontscripts 
of each instance to change the title of the topstack -- eg, from "myStack" to 
"myStack LC 5.0.2"… ?

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
pmb...@gmail.com
http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig

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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Peter M. Brigham]

On Mar 3, 2013, at 4:11 AM, Ender Nafi Elekçioğlu wrote:

> 
> On Sunday, March 3, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Richmond wrote:
> 
>> This makes me think of cheap inkjet printers: I bought an all-in-one,
>> and my EFL school now spends twice
>> the price of the thing on ink cartridges each month.
> 
> 
> :)))
> 
> That's the ruthless trick of all printer manufacturers…

The trick was invented decades ago by Gillette -- give the razors away and soak 
'em on the blades.

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
pmb...@gmail.com
http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig


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Re: Two Windows

[David Epstein]

I think Tim Miller is right to think that opening two copies of  
LiveCode will not help him edit the same stack in two windows, as  
each will not know about the changes in the other until saved to disk  
and reopened, and two very different versions are likely to result-- 
unless all changes are immediately saved and the other window's stack  
is reopened.


I would suggest rather creating a second stack (perhaps a substack)  
used as a secondary window, to which the content of individual cards  
could be copied as needed.  Write their changes back to the main  
stack before you "navigate" to another card in the secondary window  
by copying new content there.  You'll need to either prevent or  
handle the special case where one card is open in both windows at  
once (you can handle it by, e.g., using a closeField handler or a  
keyDown handler in stack 1 to change the content of field 1 of stack  
2 whenever field 1 of stack 1 is edited).


David Epstein

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Re: Keys of a custom property array

[David Epstein]

get the customKeys[myCustomPropertySetName] of myObject



Jacqueline Gay asked:

If I store an array as a custom property, is there a way to get its  
keys

without putting the whole thing into a variable first?


David Epstein


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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Bernard Devlin]

About 13 years ago I bought a small form factor PC that's the same
size/shape as the Mac Mini.  I still have it stored away somewhere.  It was
far easier to take to work than a laptop, as with no keyboard or screen, it
weighed a fraction of what a laptop weighed back then.

Bernard


On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Richmond wrote:

> "Startlingly original":
>
> http://www.intel.com/content/**www/us/en/motherboards/**
> desktop-motherboards/next-**unit-computing-introduction.**html
>
> Notwithstanding; I want one!
>
> Richmond.
>
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: Layering Mobile Controls

[Pierre Sahores]

Le 3 mars 2013 à 08:14, Ender Nafi Elekçioğlu a écrit :

> But as I said, I'm trying to avoid to inject any code/script into the html 
> files.
> It's too risky with online webpages.
> One has to save the page and resources first,
> then alter the html file,
> then set the url of browser to this saved & altered html file.
> It's easy to mess things up.

Not the way to go at all (for sure !)… 

In the following example, the offline (or, even, online) html source code stay 
always untouched. Only what is displayed inside the mobile app has to be, in 
local cached mode :

>   get your html code as url ("file:" & specialFolderPath("document") & 
> "/source.html")
>   replace what you wants with what you needs in it
>   put it into url ("file:" & specialFolderPath("cache") & "/message.html")
>   mobileControlSet "MyZoomBox", "url", "file:" & 
> specialFolderPath("cache") & "/message.html"

HTH,

--
Pierre Sahores
mobile : 06 03 95 77 70
www.sahores-conseil.com


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Re: Two Windows

[Peter Alcibiades]

It sounds like you are using just one desktop on your monitor and that makes
it very hard to manage all the overlapping windows.  What's needed is an
add-on that gives you multiple virtual desktops - think this is Spaces on
Mac, and there is a windows add-on that does it.

Then you open one copy on one desktop, the other saved as, ...1, on the
other desktop, and just move between them.  The great advantage is that each
desktop remains exactly as you left it, ready to go back to.  Even more
useful if you end up running two or more copies of LC itself which some seem
to be suggesting.  



--
View this message in context: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Two-Windows-tp4661679p4661723.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Monte Goulding]

> Probably not anymore - all those externals will get rolled into the 'stew'.


Other people could implement them sure... or I could decide to license them to 
RunRev via a contributor agreement. However, just because LiveCode is open 
source doesn't stop someone from creating addons.

--
Monte Goulding

M E R Goulding - software development services
mergExt - There's an external for that!





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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Monte Goulding]

On 03/03/2013, at 8:35 PM, Richmond  wrote:

> On 03/03/2013 11:11 AM, Monte Goulding wrote:
>> On 03/03/2013, at 11:22 AM, Roger Eller  wrote:
>> 
>>> Do we also refer to it as LCIi?
> 
> Hey, I've got a Macintosh LC475 in my attic in Scotland; maybe the ghost of 
> Steve will 'do' RunRev through
> the courts.
> 
>> I only said I imagine not all the rest y'all imagine Make up your own 
>> name for your own fork ;-)
> 
> That's going to make things 'forking' confusing.
> 
> It will end up like names for Karate styles . . .
> 
> The other thing that does occur to me is whether Monte's fork having some 
> really fantastic features and Jacque's fork
> having some different fantastic features will cause me to have a nervous 
> breakdown because I am unable to choose
> between them, or, like a shop with a really revolting name  just round the 
> corner here in Plovdiv, called "Accessorize", one can
> cherry pick from different 'forks', 'distros' (ha,ha,ha; now there's a word 
> to conjure with) the features one most likes.
> 
> Just for the sake of argument: my second PC is currently running Ubuntu 12.04 
> with the 'Pantheon' window manager
> and the 'Avant Window Manager' dock. That set up did not come out of one box, 
> but got cobbled together by me.
> 
> --
> 
> Perhaps the answer is going to depend on where the mods in each fork lie . . .
> 
> Obviously if they lie in the GUI they can be swapped around,
> 
> If they are in that mysterious collection of stacks staring with 'rev' they 
> can be swapped around, albeit with less impunity that
> plain GUI ones,
> 
> And mods to the engine? Probably no chance of mixing-and-matching there.
> 
> -
> 
> Certainly if there really are going to be 108 forks (and forks of forks);
> 
> Big fleas have little fleas,
> Upon their backs to bite 'em,
> And little fleas have lesser fleas,
> and so, ad infinitum.
> 
> a coherent and comprehensible naming convention will have to be established, 
> otherwise nobody will stand a chance.
> 
> I don't think "Livecode Richmond out of Jacque out of Klaus out of Monte out 
> of Edinburgh" is going to help much.
> 
> "Adam begat CAIN who begat ENOCH who begat IRAD who begat MEHUJAEL who begat 
> METHUSAEL who begat LAMECH"
> 
> I remember asking my Primary school teacher what that all meant and she went 
> bright red, because, poor dear, she hadn't a clue.
> Although I am the father of 2 boys (whoops, young men), I still don't 
> understand how those Old Testament types did "it"
> with not a woman in sight . . . LOL.  Probably the answer lies hidden in that 
> unusual verb.
> 
>> 
>> --
>> Monte Goulding
>> 
>> M E R Goulding - software development services
>> mergExt - There's an external for that!
> 
> Probably not anymore - all those externals will get rolled into the 'stew'.
> 
> And that is also a potential pitfall; so many ingredients in the stew that 
> the whole thing is completely tasteless
> and just one great big, ugly mush.
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> 
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--
Monte Goulding

M E R Goulding - software development services
mergExt - There's an external for that!





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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Richmond]

On 03/03/2013 11:11 AM, Monte Goulding wrote:

On 03/03/2013, at 11:22 AM, Roger Eller  wrote:


Do we also refer to it as LCIi?


Hey, I've got a Macintosh LC475 in my attic in Scotland; maybe the ghost 
of Steve will 'do' RunRev through

the courts.


I only said I imagine not all the rest y'all imagine Make up your own name 
for your own fork ;-)


That's going to make things 'forking' confusing.

It will end up like names for Karate styles . . .

The other thing that does occur to me is whether Monte's fork having 
some really fantastic features and Jacque's fork
having some different fantastic features will cause me to have a nervous 
breakdown because I am unable to choose
between them, or, like a shop with a really revolting name  just round 
the corner here in Plovdiv, called "Accessorize", one can
cherry pick from different 'forks', 'distros' (ha,ha,ha; now there's a 
word to conjure with) the features one most likes.


Just for the sake of argument: my second PC is currently running Ubuntu 
12.04 with the 'Pantheon' window manager
and the 'Avant Window Manager' dock. That set up did not come out of one 
box, but got cobbled together by me.


--

Perhaps the answer is going to depend on where the mods in each fork lie 
. . .


Obviously if they lie in the GUI they can be swapped around,

If they are in that mysterious collection of stacks staring with 'rev' 
they can be swapped around, albeit with less impunity that

plain GUI ones,

And mods to the engine? Probably no chance of mixing-and-matching there.

-

Certainly if there really are going to be 108 forks (and forks of forks);

Big fleas have little fleas,
Upon their backs to bite 'em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas,
and so, ad infinitum.

a coherent and comprehensible naming convention will have to be 
established, otherwise nobody will stand a chance.


I don't think "Livecode Richmond out of Jacque out of Klaus out of Monte 
out of Edinburgh" is going to help much.


"Adam begat CAIN who begat ENOCH who begat IRAD who begat MEHUJAEL who 
begat METHUSAEL who begat LAMECH"


I remember asking my Primary school teacher what that all meant and she 
went bright red, because, poor dear, she hadn't a clue.
Although I am the father of 2 boys (whoops, young men), I still don't 
understand how those Old Testament types did "it"
with not a woman in sight . . . LOL.  Probably the answer lies hidden in 
that unusual verb.




--
Monte Goulding

M E R Goulding - software development services
mergExt - There's an external for that!


Probably not anymore - all those externals will get rolled into the 'stew'.

And that is also a potential pitfall; so many ingredients in the stew 
that the whole thing is completely tasteless

and just one great big, ugly mush.

Richmond.


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Re: Sauce Bottle

[Monte Goulding]

On 03/03/2013, at 11:22 AM, Roger Eller  wrote:

> Do we also refer to it as LCIi?

I only said I imagine not all the rest y'all imagine Make up your own name 
for your own fork ;-)

--
Monte Goulding

M E R Goulding - software development services
mergExt - There's an external for that!





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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Ender Nafi Elekçioğlu]

On Sunday, March 3, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Richmond wrote:

> This makes me think of cheap inkjet printers: I bought an all-in-one,
> and my EFL school now spends twice
> the price of the thing on ink cartridges each month.


:)))

That's the ruthless trick of all printer manufacturers...


~ Ender Nafi  

~ ·  Keehuna Studio  
~ ·  Sorcerers of Design





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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Richmond]

On 03/03/2013 10:57 AM, Ender Nafi Elekçioğlu wrote:

There are some pre-installed packages around;
Gigabyte's i7 version or Velocity's simpler model.
http://www.velocitymicro.com/wizard.php?iid=239

Not so cheap with its $600 tag, but nearly ¼th of mac mini {in size}.
Looks promising…


~ Ender Nafi

~ ·  Keehuna Studio
~ ·  Sorcerers of Design

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The Bulgarian site is selling the units (without RAM and storage) for 
335 Bulgarian leva = 190 Euros,
which is very good indeed IFF one knows where to get one's hands on 
inexpensive RAM and mSATA storage.


However, a quick look for mSATA on Amazon makes me think that 256 GB 
mSATA storage will cost

about 190 Euros

However, 32 GB goes for 40 pounds = 50 Euros, and that would be quite 
enough to run one's OS and one
could store data in the sort of places I do (currently in an alarming 
array of external USB connected cases containing a
load of ill-assorted old PATA drives). Needless to say, my data solution 
spoils the portativity aspect of the NUC.


This makes me think of cheap inkjet printers: I bought an all-in-one, 
and my EFL school now spends twice

the price of the thing on ink cartridges each month.

Richmond.

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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Ender Nafi Elekçioğlu]

There are some pre-installed packages around;  
Gigabyte's i7 version or Velocity's simpler model.  
http://www.velocitymicro.com/wizard.php?iid=239

Not so cheap with its $600 tag, but nearly ¼th of mac mini {in size}.
Looks promising…


~ Ender Nafi  

~ ·  Keehuna Studio  
~ ·  Sorcerers of Design

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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Richmond]

On 03/03/2013 10:48 AM, Ender Nafi Elekçioğlu wrote:

On Sunday, March 3, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Richmond wrote:


I want one!

+1


In fact, I want one right now :)


Something odd though;

on the Bulgarian website they are being sold without RAM
and without data storage cards .  .  .

that could be a real pain; especially with the RAM.




~ Ender Nafi


~ ·  Keehuna Studio
~ ·  Sorcerers of Design






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Re: [OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Ender Nafi Elekçioğlu]

On Sunday, March 3, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Richmond wrote:

> I want one!
+1


In fact, I want one right now :)  


~ Ender Nafi  


~ ·  Keehuna Studio  
~ ·  Sorcerers of Design






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[OT] "MacMini" 7-8 years later

[Richmond]

"Startlingly original":

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/next-unit-computing-introduction.html

Notwithstanding; I want one!

Richmond.

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