Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29517&p=156125#p156125

On 7/19/17 10:39 pm, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:

That is a rather good suggestion!




Richmond.

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Re: IntelliSense - Intelligent code completion for LiveCode

[Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode]

Todd, this is what the community edition of LC was designed for, so that
people like you and I can code this ourselves and submit it for inclusion
into the whole package. That was the whole purpose of LC going to the
trouble of becoming Open Source. The power is in your hands. Make it
happen. This sort of stuff is not engine based, so write it in LiveCode. As
you know, LC excels in doing this kind of text based search and modify, so
is ideally suited to accomplish Intellisense. This kind of donation to the
community is worth far more than any subscription you might pay.

We all look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
www.pidigital.co.uk


On 19 July 2017 at 21:22, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Forgot a setence.
>
> Maybe he is willing to share it.
>
> Matthias Rebbe
> +49 5741 31
> ‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌
>
> > Am 19.07.2017 um 22:18 schrieb Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com >:
> >
> > Zryip created a little intellisense plugin some years ago.
> >
> > http://www.aslugontheroad.com/in-progress/9-intellisense-plugin <
> http://www.aslugontheroad.com/in-progress/9-intellisense-plugin> www.aslugontheroad.com/in-progress/9-intellisense-plugin <
> http://www.aslugontheroad.com/in-progress/9-intellisense-plugin>>
> >
> > It´s free for users of the Excel Library.
> >
> > Matthias
> >
> > Matthias Rebbe
> > +49 5741 31
> > ‌matthiasrebbe.eu   http://matthiasrebbe.eu/>>‌
> >
> >> Am 19.07.2017 um 22:10 schrieb Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com  > runrev.com>>>:
> >>
> >> One of the single largest problems we face is resistance to LiveCode in
> the
> >> corporate is developers. One, they are not eager to learn a new
> language.
> >> But once I show them LiveCode, they see the simple ease and simplicity
> and
> >> become open to the prospect. I even explain it as a way of prototyping
> >> their logic in an English format.
> >>
> >> But once they start coding, they outright reject it because of the
> complete
> >> lack of IntelliSense. These people will NOT BUDGE. There is no way we
> are
> >> going to convince them that they will have to remember the properties
> and
> >> function names.
> >>
> >> I saw in Kevin's demo of the latest version which showed that there was
> >> FINALLY a list of events to choose from. This should have been there
> years
> >> ago. You just need to look at LiveCode's competition to see progress.
> Xojo
> >> is one example. We needed to create a RasPi app as a test, so we
> purchased
> >> a license, and it's IDE was quite good. MUCH better than LiveCode. We
> also
> >> use Visual Studio, which has fantastic IntelliSense.
> >>
> >> Here is what they are looking for:
> >>
> >> 1. Function completion. As you type it starts to match a function name,
> all
> >> the functions so up in a list to choose from as I type.
> >>
> >> 2. Function parameters. once I type a function, I can mouse over it and
> all
> >> the parameters and a quick explanation show up.
> >>
> >> 3. I understand that properties are going to be a problem because
> LiveCode
> >> is NOT in an algebraic format like Object.Property = value. So setting
> the
> >> properties first is an issue. How about we put in a placeholder like:
> >>
> >> set the ? from field "test"
> >> set the ? from widget "map"
> >>
> >> Then...as soon as I put in the object type or object name for a widget,
> I
> >> would get a pop-up with a list of properties to select from.
> >>
> >>
> >> These functionalities may not be easy, but should not be difficult.
> Maybe
> >> an IntelliSense extension, done by the community can be done? It is a
> major
> >> barrier to entry for experienced developers to switch to. This is the #1
> >> reason we can not get coders in companies to agree to LiveCode. #2 was
> Git,
> >> but that seems to be solved with community involvement from Trevor.
> >>
> >> Just an idea,
> >>
> >> Todd Fabacher
> >> ___
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> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
>  runrev.com>>
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> http

AW: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Tiemo Hollmann TB via use-livecode]

Keep in mind, that h.264 is not natively supported by Windows 10 (and not by
8 I think). You need to install a h.264 filter!
Up to now, I didn't found a separate h.264 filter installer, which only
installs h.264, only bundled in a codec package installer like the LAV
filters.

Tiemo


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] Im Auftrag
von Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Juli 2017 21:37
An: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Richard Gaskin 
Betreff: [OT]h.264 alternatives

Seems most folks use h.264 for encoding video, but being patent-encumbered
it requires negotiating a license with MPEGLA for commercial use.

I have a batch of files I need to re-encode - what non-patent-encumbered
codec could I use that will be supported on all platforms?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  
  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-2

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

The only practical way to accomplish this is to work in a bakery. 

Bob S


> On Jul 18, 2017, at 10:53 , Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Of course, the ideal situation is that we always find a way for everybody to 
> have their cake *and* eat it :)


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Re: [ANN] Release 9.0.0 DP-8

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Monkey Patching. I like that. Is that a reference to the Scopes Monkey trial? 

Just as an aside, I heard a brilliant professor once provide the most excellent 
challenge to the Monkeys on Typewriters illustration I have yet heard. He said 
that the illustration was not true to nature because the magical typewriters 
were not capable of REMOVING the randomly typed letters from the paper. By that 
he meant that in an aqueous solution, while it is certainly possible that amino 
acids can often form simple, and perhaps rarely, complex proteins, the 
equilibrium actually far more favors the BREAKDOWN of proteins into their amino 
acid components. 

So now how long would it take to randomly produce the famed literary piece? Or 
a protein so complex and optically pure it could begin to reproduce itself, and 
repair itself, and protect itself from the environment? Once equilibrium is 
accounted for, and the balance favors the breakdown of proteins, even infinity 
cannot produce the results one might want. In fact it fairly guarantees it's 
failure. 

Bob S


> On Jul 18, 2017, at 10:58 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> but if the script editor hasn't already been loaded into memory I don't think 
> you can do this without monkeypatching the SE startup script.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

At this point I think common law would kick in, since they have been allowing 
the practice for well over 7 years now. 

Bob S


> On Jul 19, 2017, at 13:31 , Stephen Barncard via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Which means every network and independent film-maker is breaking the law...
>  because I guarantee that they're not looking at the EULA when sending off
> their work for broadcast or theater.I see this every day.
> 
> Kinda like "don't ask don't tell" if you ask me.
> 
> And unenforceable. They'd have to sue everyone using their product.
> To assume the two top video editing programs for independents can't be used
> for professional use is ludicrous.
> 
> Who would be the 'cop' that would enforce this?
> 
> I just don't worry about this stuff when working on music or video projects.
> 
> sqb
> 
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
> mixstream.org


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I too find it much more productive when communicating with a group to do so in 
a language common to all. :-)

Bob S


> On Jul 19, 2017, at 04:28 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am sorry, but my French is not so good. Google translate gave me the 
> following translation to English:
> 
> * Everyone to his taste but this, o, ent it is not a choice!
> I would like a digestive.
> 
> But still wondering what you wanted to say.
> (The German translation was even more confusing)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthias Rebbe


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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I didn't DL the RC. I'm one of the lemmings that loiter at the top of the cliff 
to see if any of the other lemmings are going to return. :-)

Bob S


> On Jul 19, 2017, at 09:44 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Why are we testing a new feature in a RELEASE CANDIDATE version #2? Why are 
>> significant features being added at all to the 8.x branch? What standard (if 
>> any) do Livecode version numbers follow?
> 
> I was wondering along the same lines. I have previously been assured that new 
> "features" don't get rolled into release candidate builds, and the only 
> changes in successive rc builds are things that caused regression failures in 
> earlier builds. It seems that this policy has now changed to allow for 
> changes to see how new users will react.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder


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Re: Find some text characters

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

of if char 3 to -1 of tItem > 

Bob S


> On Jul 17, 2017, at 14:59 , Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> If the number of chars in tItem = 8 then...


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Re: IntelliSense - Intelligent code completion for LiveCode

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Except there is no option to download it anywhere I can see on the site. 

Bob S


> On Jul 19, 2017, at 13:18 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Zryip created a little intellisense plugin some years ago. 
> 
> http://www.aslugontheroad.com/in-progress/9-intellisense-plugin 
> 
> 
> It´s free for users of the Excel Library.
> 
> Matthias
> 
> Matthias Rebbe

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Re: IntelliSense - Intelligent code completion for LiveCode

[Mike Bonner via use-livecode]

http://www.aslugontheroad.com/download/category/5-open-sources


On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 9:11 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Except there is no option to download it anywhere I can see on the site.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Jul 19, 2017, at 13:18 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Zryip created a little intellisense plugin some years ago.
> >
> > http://www.aslugontheroad.com/in-progress/9-intellisense-plugin <
> http://www.aslugontheroad.com/in-progress/9-intellisense-plugin>
> >
> > It´s free for users of the Excel Library.
> >
> > Matthias
> >
> > Matthias Rebbe
>
> ___
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Re: IntelliSense - Intelligent code completion for LiveCode

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Thanks Mike . I didn't look in Open Source as I thought it was for people who 
had purchased the ExcelLIB product. DOH. 

Bob S



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Re: Why is libcef included in standalone?

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Remember the days when a web server and browser was a means to efficiently and 
reliably communicate basic information across the internet universally? What 
the hell happened??

Bob S


> On Jul 18, 2017, at 10:59 , Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 2017-07-18 19:25, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote:
>> Mark,
>> Thanks for the very helpful info and the quick reply!  In my case, I
>> am displaying a very simple webpage as a type of preview.  So, the
>> latest html compatibility isn’t an issue.  For this project, I’ll
>> manually remove the libcef.dll and move forward.
> 
> You're welcome.
> 
> We've periodically discussed internally using Edge on Windows for the browser 
> widget (as an option) for the cases where you just need a browser for 
> specific things (e.g. OAuth).
> 
> However, as it stands, CEF is giving us enough trouble just now so sorting 
> that out sits wy further up in priorities.
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.

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Re: IntelliSense - Intelligent code completion for LiveCode

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Hi, 
i am sorry for the confusion. 
I thought it was only for Excel library license owners.

Good to know that it is open source now.


Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

> Am 20.07.2017 um 17:21 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Thanks Mike . I didn't look in Open Source as I thought it was for people who 
> had purchased the ExcelLIB product. DOH. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Find some text characters

[Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode]

Using ";" as the itemdel - makes sense.

I also realized both split and filter could used for this.

None of these beat regex for brevity, though.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 20, 2017, at 11:06 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> of if char 3 to -1 of tItem > 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Jul 17, 2017, at 14:59 , Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> If the number of chars in tItem = 8 then...
> 
> 
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Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring 
explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for listening.


What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar security?

In the Android settings for LC's Standalone Builder, does the "Internet" 
permission cover both client and server roles?


That seems a bit broad to me, but in my brief searching this morning I 
haven't yet turned up how each mobile OS restricts apps from allowing 
connections from the open Internet.


Any guidance on this would be appreciate.

TIA -

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: AW: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Tiemo Hollmann wrote:

> Keep in mind, that h.264 is not natively supported by Windows 10 (and
> not by 8 I think). You need to install a h.264 filte

Thanks, Tiemo. That's a serious bummer.

It's 2017. Is there really no single codec available for Mac, Windows, 
Linux, iOS, and Android which allows playback of a single video file?


Are we stuck in the yesteryear of having to query the user-agent and 
serve different files according to the user's OS?


Extra bonus points if it's no patent-encumbered, but at this point I'll 
take what I can get.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Fine: then let's all switch over to Latin.

Richmond.

On 7/20/17 5:57 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

I too find it much more productive when communicating with a group to do so in 
a language common to all. :-)

Bob S



On Jul 19, 2017, at 04:28 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
 wrote:

I am sorry, but my French is not so good. Google translate gave me the 
following translation to English:

* Everyone to his taste but this, o, ent it is not a choice!
I would like a digestive.

But still wondering what you wanted to say.
(The German translation was even more confusing)




Matthias Rebbe


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RE: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

The only restriction I know of is on iOS. iOS does not allow unencrypted
http connections unless you tic the "Disable ATS" in the standalone
settings. I know this applies to URLS using the browser control and "put/get
url" in scripts but don't know if it also applies to sockets.

If the mobile app was to be the server side of sockets how would you connect
to it? What would be the URL?
 
Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:00 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Richard Gaskin
Subject: Restrictions on mobile servers?

On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring explicit
admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for listening.

What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar security?

In the Android settings for LC's Standalone Builder, does the "Internet" 
permission cover both client and server roles?

That seems a bit broad to me, but in my brief searching this morning I
haven't yet turned up how each mobile OS restricts apps from allowing
connections from the open Internet.

Any guidance on this would be appreciate.

TIA -

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  
  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Bob Sneidar wrote:

>> On Jul 19, 2017, at 13:31 , Stephen Barncard wrote:
>>
>> Which means every network and independent film-maker is breaking the
>> law...
>>  because I guarantee that they're not looking at the EULA when
>> sending off their work for broadcast or theater.I see this every
>> day.
>>
>> Kinda like "don't ask don't tell" if you ask me.
>>
>> And unenforceable. They'd have to sue everyone using their product.
>> To assume the two top video editing programs for independents can't
>> be used for professional use is ludicrous.
>>
>> Who would be the 'cop' that would enforce this?
>
> At this point I think common law would kick in, since they have been
> allowing the practice for well over 7 years now.

I am not an attorney, and nothing I write should be construed as legal 
advice.  I can only describe my own practices in my own office (Dr. 
Hawkins, please feel free to correct anything here that may be inaccurate).


While trademarks seem to have a case law history of frowning on what 
courts may see as "selective enforcement", I believe that constraint is 
nearly unique to trademarks; broader guidelines apply for defining and 
enforcing infringement of patents (and copyrights too, AFAIK), at least 
in US jurisdictions.


Remember the GIF controversy, where Unisys began broad enforcement of 
their LZW patent only after GIF had become nearly universally adopted:



Indeed, one of the key motivations for creating PNG was to have a 
replacement for GIF that wasn't patent-encumbered (extra bonus points 
that being a more modern format PNG supports a wide range of great 
features far beyond anything GIF ever dreamed of).


MP3's patents were similarly contentious:


Personally, I would not wager my company or any client's company on the 
hope of a favorable ruling from a court which contradicts a written 
license agreement.


In addition to legitimate patent holders like MPEGLA, we've also seen an 
increase in patent trolling from non-practicing entities suing small 
devs for the most obscure patents imagined*.  Newegg has the resources 
to fight such things, and with good success so far (our entire industry 
owes them a debt of gratitude for doing more to slow patent trolls than 
any other single company has done):



But I have fewer legal resources than NewEgg, so I need to minimize risk 
exposure where practical.  For me this begins with reading license 
agreements, and acting on them with a conservative interpretation of 
their terms, openly discussing any potential risks with clients so they 
can review options with their counsel.




* Many patents asserted by NPEs are so broad and/or vague they could be 
met with piles of prior art.  But that requires hiring a law firm 
specializing in IP and funding the research and trial time.  Patent 
trolls depend on this being prohibitively expensive for small devs, who 
are often eager to settle for a fraction of what it would cost to defend 
themselves.


The USPTO cannot be expected to have the resources to deny patent 
applications based on prior art research, or the authority to interpret 
definitions of relevant prior art as they may pertain to a given 
application.


So it falls on the courts to decide these things, and patent litigation 
is among the most expensive categories of legal practice.


These are among the many reasons I side with the EFF and others opposed 
to software patents.


Several years ago New Zealand pretty much banned software patent cases 
from their courts, a change many of us small devs hope will gain broader 
international support:



--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 7/20/17 11:59 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring 
explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for listening.


What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar security?


On Android, the user must agree to Internet and all other permissions 
stated in the manifest before download begins if the app is in the Play 
Store. In newer versions of Android the user has the ability to turn off 
any permission at any time from within the OS settings.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Ralph DiMola wrote:

> Richard wrote:
>> On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring
>> explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for
>> listening.
>>
>> What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar
>> security?
>
> The only restriction I know of is on iOS. iOS does not allow
> unencrypted http connections unless you tic the "Disable ATS"
> in the standalone settings. I know this applies to URLS using
> the browser control and "put/get url" in scripts but don't know
> if it also applies to sockets.
>
> If the mobile app was to be the server side of sockets how would
> you connect to it? What would be the URL?

Thanks for the input, Ralph.

I've been pondering P2P-vs-client-server for years, and this morning was 
prompted to learn the implications of attempting P2P on mobile from this 
forum thread:



The user there is proposing a dynamic DNS solution, where each mobile 
device posts its current IP address through a domain-based intermediary.


As popular as DynDNS services are for certain applications, they only 
solve part of the problem.


The biggest challenges (on the desktop at least) involve the complexity 
required of the user to configure port-forwarding in their router's NAS, 
and the (hopefully) complete inability to do that in any business 
environment.  Coupled with an ever-greater awareness of security risks 
at the OS level, deploying TCP listeners in consumer apps seems dodgy at 
best.


Indeed, many P2P services, like one of the world's most popular, Skype, 
make use of client-server as a fallback. Last I heard most of Skype's 
traffic was using that fallback.


So while I'm disinclined to recommend P2P for anything outside of 
subnets on the desktop, I have to admit ignorance of the implications of 
attempting it on mobile OSes.


I would imagine security would be even stronger, but perhaps mobile OS 
vendors provide clever ways to mitigate the risks.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Commonly understood by all in the group. Not all mankind! :-)

Bob S


> On Jul 20, 2017, at 10:22 , Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Fine: then let's all switch over to Latin.
> 
> Richmond.


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Well that's fine; as you should be aware, all in-groups like to talk to 
each other in such a way as to

exclude non-members so that they can feel vastly superior.

Richmond.

On 7/20/17 9:26 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Commonly understood by all in the group. Not all mankind! :-)

Bob S



On Jul 20, 2017, at 10:22 , Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Fine: then let's all switch over to Latin.

Richmond.


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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Bob Sneidar write:
> I didn't DL the RC. I'm one of the lemmings that loiter at the top of
> the cliff to see if any of the other lemmings are going to return. :-)

Like everything else in life, the only constant in software is change, 
in both applications and the OSes they rely on.  There is no practical 
way to avoid software evolution, except perhaps to use unsupported OSes, 
which seems even riskier.


Sooner or later, an update will become a necessity.

LiveCode is vast, the combinatorial explosion of possible ways to use it 
nearly infinite.  What you need from the engine is likely different in 
at least some ways from what Alex needs; what I need is different from 
what Trevor needs, etc.


Testing before release helps ensure that any issue specific to your 
application on the platforms you need to deploy to can be addressed.


As Mark Waddingham recently wrote me in an email (I trust he won't mind 
me copying this here):


   ...if all anyone does is try 3 of their projects in the most recent
   DP / RC until they hit something which breaks, and then reports that
   and goes back to using the latest stable version it would help a lot.

   ...the more people we can get using DP's (in particular), the higher
   quality they will be and the faster new versions will appear.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 7/20/17 11:59 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring
>> explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for
>> listening.
>>
>> What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar
>> security?
>
> On Android, the user must agree to Internet and all other permissions
> stated in the manifest before download begins if the app is in the
> Play Store. In newer versions of Android the user has the ability to
> turn off any permission at any time from within the OS settings.

So that one setting applies to both client and server roles, the ability 
to send requests to servers and also to expose the device to probing 
from the open Internet?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

Richard:

I've been working with with VOIP applications and there are some systems
that have free methods for finding each other.

Check out the Linphone SIP service  (and Linphone itself is pretty cool)

Open Source of course. They use the new stuff in the Opera, Firefox and
Chrome browsers using the Opus codec.

sqb

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Ralph DiMola wrote:
>
> > Richard wrote:
> >> On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring
> >> explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for
> >> listening.
> >>
> >> What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar
> >> security?
> >
> > The only restriction I know of is on iOS. iOS does not allow
> > unencrypted http connections unless you tic the "Disable ATS"
> > in the standalone settings. I know this applies to URLS using
> > the browser control and "put/get url" in scripts but don't know
> > if it also applies to sockets.
> >
> > If the mobile app was to be the server side of sockets how would
> > you connect to it? What would be the URL?
>
> Thanks for the input, Ralph.
>
> I've been pondering P2P-vs-client-server for years, and this morning was
> prompted to learn the implications of attempting P2P on mobile from this
> forum thread:
> 
>
> The user there is proposing a dynamic DNS solution, where each mobile
> device posts its current IP address through a domain-based intermediary.
>
> As popular as DynDNS services are for certain applications, they only
> solve part of the problem.
>
> The biggest challenges (on the desktop at least) involve the complexity
> required of the user to configure port-forwarding in their router's NAS,
> and the (hopefully) complete inability to do that in any business
> environment.  Coupled with an ever-greater awareness of security risks at
> the OS level, deploying TCP listeners in consumer apps seems dodgy at best.
>
> Indeed, many P2P services, like one of the world's most popular, Skype,
> make use of client-server as a fallback. Last I heard most of Skype's
> traffic was using that fallback.
>
> So while I'm disinclined to recommend P2P for anything outside of subnets
> on the desktop, I have to admit ignorance of the implications of attempting
> it on mobile OSes.
>
> I would imagine security would be even stronger, but perhaps mobile OS
> vendors provide clever ways to mitigate the risks.
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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> subscription preferences:
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/20/2017 11:33 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
Well that's fine; as you should be aware, all in-groups like to talk to 
each other in such a way as to

exclude non-members so that they can feel vastly superior.


I decry the discrimination against Finno-Ugric!

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com



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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/20/2017 11:41 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:


...the more people we can get using DP's (in particular), the higher
quality they will be and the faster new versions will appear.


...so when was the last time you saw a dp release?
(of anything other than LC9, which is nothing but, since it hasn't yet 
reached a state stable enough for an rc release)


Seems to be LC8.1.0dp3 from 29 July 2016
LC8.1 went through 3 dp releases before getting to RC state

Last one before that was LC8.0.0dp16 17 march 2016
16 dp releases before stabilizing

and before that was LC7.0.0dp10 18 August 2014

DP releases are pretty rare. People can't try these unless they're released.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Stephen Barncard wrote:

> Richard:
>
> I've been working with with VOIP applications and there are some
> systems that have free methods for finding each other.
>
> Check out the Linphone SIP service  (and Linphone itself is pretty
> cool)

Thanks.  Isn't Linphone client-server, as opposed to direct P2P?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Wieder wrote:

> On 07/20/2017 11:41 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>
>>   ...the more people we can get using DP's (in particular),
>>   the higher quality they will be and the faster new versions
>>   will appear.
>
> ...so when was the last time you saw a dp release?
> (of anything other than LC9, which is nothing but, since it hasn't yet
> reached a state stable enough for an rc release)

Okay, replace "DP" with "most recent build", which will usually reflect 
the current state of bug fixes.


The point here is less about build nomenclature than about the choice 
between testing and not testing.


One of those choices allows the possibility that any issues specific to 
one's work can be addressed before the version goes final.


The other choice almost guarantees they won't be. :)

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

Err - last week... 9dp8? Previously there 7 others - a bit under one a month 
(on average) if my recollection serves me correctly (which it might not!).

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 20 Jul 2017, at 20:09, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On 07/20/2017 11:41 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>>...the more people we can get using DP's (in particular), the higher
>>quality they will be and the faster new versions will appear.
> 
> ...so when was the last time you saw a dp release?
> (of anything other than LC9, which is nothing but, since it hasn't yet 
> reached a state stable enough for an rc release)
> 
> Seems to be LC8.1.0dp3 from 29 July 2016
> LC8.1 went through 3 dp releases before getting to RC state
> 
> Last one before that was LC8.0.0dp16 17 march 2016
> 16 dp releases before stabilizing
> 
> and before that was LC7.0.0dp10 18 August 2014
> 
> DP releases are pretty rare. People can't try these unless they're released.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

In fact there have been 54 DP releases since we went open source in April 2013 
- which is pretty much 1 per month on average since.

So, not rare at all - quite common, one might say.

Mark.

P.S. If someone wants to check my math - then please do. The necessary 
information is easily grokable from the downloads page.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 20 Jul 2017, at 20:23, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Err - last week... 9dp8? Previously there 7 others - a bit under one a month 
> (on average) if my recollection serves me correctly (which it might not!).
> 
> Mark.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On 20 Jul 2017, at 20:09, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 07/20/2017 11:41 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>>> 
>>>   ...the more people we can get using DP's (in particular), the higher
>>>   quality they will be and the faster new versions will appear.
>> 
>> ...so when was the last time you saw a dp release?
>> (of anything other than LC9, which is nothing but, since it hasn't yet 
>> reached a state stable enough for an rc release)
>> 
>> Seems to be LC8.1.0dp3 from 29 July 2016
>> LC8.1 went through 3 dp releases before getting to RC state
>> 
>> Last one before that was LC8.0.0dp16 17 march 2016
>> 16 dp releases before stabilizing
>> 
>> and before that was LC7.0.0dp10 18 August 2014
>> 
>> DP releases are pretty rare. People can't try these unless they're released.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Mark Wieder
>> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>> 
>> ___
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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

I'm pretty sure SIP servers just  makes introductions to two clients
running on devices and gets out of the way. A way to keep your IP out of it.
Also they use UDP packets - MUCH less latency - and does error correction
(reconstruction?) without re-requesting as HTTP based clients do.

the 'stuff' to do this has recently been added to the named browsers.
 All the code is there.

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Stephen Barncard wrote:
>
> > Richard:
> >
> > I've been working with with VOIP applications and there are some
> > systems that have free methods for finding each other.
> >
> > Check out the Linphone SIP service  (and Linphone itself is pretty
> > cool)
>
> Thanks.  Isn't Linphone client-server, as opposed to direct P2P?
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> ___
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> subscription preferences:
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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

I honestly don't know what the fuss is:

DP or RC, who cares, after all as long as they are numbered reasonably 
sequentially we know
that they are leading up to a 'Full' release (which, after all, means 
the start of another SDLC).


I'm working with 8.1.4 at the moment and having lots of fun with the 
8.1.6 DVs (dirty versions).


Richmond.

On 7/20/17 10:09 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 07/20/2017 11:41 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:


...the more people we can get using DP's (in particular), the higher
quality they will be and the faster new versions will appear.


...so when was the last time you saw a dp release?
(of anything other than LC9, which is nothing but, since it hasn't yet 
reached a state stable enough for an rc release)


Seems to be LC8.1.0dp3 from 29 July 2016
LC8.1 went through 3 dp releases before getting to RC state

Last one before that was LC8.0.0dp16 17 march 2016
16 dp releases before stabilizing

and before that was LC7.0.0dp10 18 August 2014

DP releases are pretty rare. People can't try these unless they're 
released.




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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 7/20/17 1:44 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

J. Landman Gay wrote:

 > On 7/20/17 11:59 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
 >> On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring
 >> explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for
 >> listening.
 >>
 >> What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar
 >> security?
 >
 > On Android, the user must agree to Internet and all other permissions
 > stated in the manifest before download begins if the app is in the
 > Play Store. In newer versions of Android the user has the ability to
 > turn off any permission at any time from within the OS settings.

So that one setting applies to both client and server roles, the ability 
to send requests to servers and also to expose the device to probing 
from the open Internet?




First off, I was wrong about how Android verifies permissions. It lists 
all permissions assigned to the app in a dialog prior to installation, 
so you can cancel or at least be aware of what you might want to turn 
off later. The source of the apk is immaterial, the permissions 
notification is part of the install process.


That said, the internet permission applies to any type of internet 
communication. If it's turned off, the app can neither send nor receive 
internet data; it's my understanding that the OS blocks the connection 
from either side.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

If only I were sure that all our tooling would be happy with 'dv' - that might 
make a good name for nightly builds.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 20 Jul 2017, at 21:18, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I honestly don't know what the fuss is:
> 
> DP or RC, who cares, after all as long as they are numbered reasonably 
> sequentially we know
> that they are leading up to a 'Full' release (which, after all, means the 
> start of another SDLC).
> 
> I'm working with 8.1.4 at the moment and having lots of fun with the 8.1.6 
> DVs (dirty versions).
> 
> Richmond.
> 
>> On 7/20/17 10:09 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
>>> On 07/20/2017 11:41 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>>> 
>>>...the more people we can get using DP's (in particular), the higher
>>>quality they will be and the faster new versions will appear.
>> 
>> ...so when was the last time you saw a dp release?
>> (of anything other than LC9, which is nothing but, since it hasn't yet 
>> reached a state stable enough for an rc release)
>> 
>> Seems to be LC8.1.0dp3 from 29 July 2016
>> LC8.1 went through 3 dp releases before getting to RC state
>> 
>> Last one before that was LC8.0.0dp16 17 march 2016
>> 16 dp releases before stabilizing
>> 
>> and before that was LC7.0.0dp10 18 August 2014
>> 
>> DP releases are pretty rare. People can't try these unless they're released.
>> 
> 
> ___
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RE: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

I use a "stun" server to get the ata(sip client) ip behind NAT. There are
public stun servers or you can install an open source one on your one
server.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Stephen Barncard via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:13 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Stephen Barncard
Subject: Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

I'm pretty sure SIP servers just  makes introductions to two clients running
on devices and gets out of the way. A way to keep your IP out of it.
Also they use UDP packets - MUCH less latency - and does error correction
(reconstruction?) without re-requesting as HTTP based clients do.

the 'stuff' to do this has recently been added to the named browsers.
 All the code is there.

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Stephen Barncard wrote:
>
> > Richard:
> >
> > I've been working with with VOIP applications and there are some 
> > systems that have free methods for finding each other.
> >
> > Check out the Linphone SIP service  (and Linphone itself is pretty
> > cool)
>
> Thanks.  Isn't Linphone client-server, as opposed to direct P2P?
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web  
> 
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

LIKE!  :-D

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 4:32 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> If only I were sure that all our tooling would be happy with 'dv' - that
> might make a good name for nightly builds.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 20 Jul 2017, at 21:18, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I honestly don't know what the fuss is:
> >
> > DP or RC, who cares, after all as long as they are numbered reasonably
> sequentially we know
> > that they are leading up to a 'Full' release (which, after all, means
> the start of another SDLC).
> >
> > I'm working with 8.1.4 at the moment and having lots of fun with the
> 8.1.6 DVs (dirty versions).
> >
> > Richmond.
> >
> >> On 7/20/17 10:09 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> >>> On 07/20/2017 11:41 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> >>>
> >>>...the more people we can get using DP's (in particular), the higher
> >>>quality they will be and the faster new versions will appear.
> >>
> >> ...so when was the last time you saw a dp release?
> >> (of anything other than LC9, which is nothing but, since it hasn't yet
> reached a state stable enough for an rc release)
> >>
> >> Seems to be LC8.1.0dp3 from 29 July 2016
> >> LC8.1 went through 3 dp releases before getting to RC state
> >>
> >> Last one before that was LC8.0.0dp16 17 march 2016
> >> 16 dp releases before stabilizing
> >>
> >> and before that was LC7.0.0dp10 18 August 2014
> >>
> >> DP releases are pretty rare. People can't try these unless they're
> released.
> >>
> >
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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/20/2017 12:23 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

Err - last week... 9dp8? Previously there 7 others - a bit under one a month 
(on average) if my recollection serves me correctly (which it might not!).


Note that I explictly excepted LC9 because it's dp all the way down.

Other than LC9, the last dp release was a year ago.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/20/2017 01:18 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

I honestly don't know what the fuss is:


Because RCs and DPs are different beasts.

By the time you get to an RC1 release it's expected that barring any 
newly-introduced problems the next build will be the 'stable' release. 
I've been assured that nothing will get added once we get to RCland, and 
that includes bugfixes to anything that was previously broken as well as 
nifty new features.


DP releases should be more for things like testing whether a mandatory 
backdrop would resonate with users, messing with the handler list, 
adding experimental features to see if they break, etc.




DP or RC, who cares, after all as long as they are numbered reasonably 
sequentially we know
that they are leading up to a 'Full' release (which, after all, means 
the start of another SDLC).


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/20/2017 12:17 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:


Okay, replace "DP" with "most recent build"


No, you can't do that. If the team really wants us to test new features 
in DP releases (and I'm certainly on board with that) then we need DP 
releases.


The whole idea of a Release Candidate is that the developers get to say 
"OK - we're done developing this and we think it's ready to be released. 
We're moving on to other things now, don't bother us unless it's broken" 
and that's a different thing from "here's a new build with a bunch of 
nifty new ideas that we're working on. It's still a work in progress, 
but we'd appreciate it if you try this build and see if your existing 
stacks still work. Also, we've added new features here, so you can using 
the new stuff with this in preparation for the RC/GM releases".


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Well put! I nominate you for the new Public Relations guy! 

Bob S


> On Jul 20, 2017, at 15:52 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Okay, replace "DP" with "most recent build"
> 
> No, you can't do that. If the team really wants us to test new features in DP 
> releases (and I'm certainly on board with that) then we need DP releases.
> 
> The whole idea of a Release Candidate is that the developers get to say "OK - 
> we're done developing this and we think it's ready to be released. We're 
> moving on to other things now, don't bother us unless it's broken" and that's 
> a different thing from "here's a new build with a bunch of nifty new ideas 
> that we're working on. It's still a work in progress, but we'd appreciate it 
> if you try this build and see if your existing stacks still work. Also, we've 
> added new features here, so you can using the new stuff with this in 
> preparation for the RC/GM releases".
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode]

A bit OT but entertaining, apparently one can use an iPhone as a server:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6804650/ios-devices-as-web-server

I see no point to this, but, you know, people just do things :)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 20, 2017, at 4:33 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I use a "stun" server to get the ata(sip client) ip behind NAT. There are
> public stun servers or you can install an open source one on your one
> server.
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of Stephen Barncard via use-livecode
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:13 PM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Stephen Barncard
> Subject: Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?
> 
> I'm pretty sure SIP servers just  makes introductions to two clients running
> on devices and gets out of the way. A way to keep your IP out of it.
> Also they use UDP packets - MUCH less latency - and does error correction
> (reconstruction?) without re-requesting as HTTP based clients do.
> 
> the 'stuff' to do this has recently been added to the named browsers.
> All the code is there.
> 
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
> mixstream.org
> 
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Stephen Barncard wrote:
>> 
>>> Richard:
>>> 
>>> I've been working with with VOIP applications and there are some 
>>> systems that have free methods for finding each other.
>>> 
>>> Check out the Linphone SIP service  (and Linphone itself is pretty
>>> cool)
>> 
>> Thanks.  Isn't Linphone client-server, as opposed to direct P2P?
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Richard Gaskin
>> Fourth World Systems
>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web  
>> 
>> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>> 
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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Ralph DiMola wrote:

> I use a "stun" server to get the ata(sip client) ip behind NAT. There
> are public stun servers or you can install an open source one on your
> one server.

Good reading, thanks.

But there's that word again, "server".

The forum user's request is for pure P2P communication between phones. 
He's willing to use a third device as a server for sharing IP addresses, 
but for reasons I haven't yet discerned prefers not to use a server for 
actual comms, wants those phone-to-phone.



As a side note, the earlier suggestion that every app that's granted 
permission to make outgoing requests also has privileges to open ports 
for incoming connections kinda freaks me out.  Any suggestions for good 
software on non-rooted phones for monitoring app network activity?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Wieder wrote:

On 07/20/2017 12:17 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: 

Okay, replace "DP" with "most recent build"


No, you can't do that. If the team really wants us to test new features 
in DP releases (and I'm certainly on board with that) then we need DP 
releases.


I thought Mark had clarified that, no?

If not, here's another stab at it:

  If the alternative is to not test at all, test whatever's most
  recently available.

  When that's a DP, we all appreciate that in general the earlier
  in the process an issue is resolved the cheaper it is to do so.

  But if you've put off testing until after DP, don't wait further.
  Your app may depend on your participation.

Better? :)


The whole idea of a Release Candidate is that the developers get to say 
"OK - we're done developing this and we think it's ready to be released. 
We're moving on to other things now, don't bother us unless it's broken" 
and that's a different thing from "here's a new build with a bunch of 
nifty new ideas that we're working on. It's still a work in progress, 
but we'd appreciate it if you try this build and see if your existing 
stacks still work. Also, we've added new features here, so you can using 
the new stuff with this in preparation for the RC/GM releases".


Yeah, I get that.  But the progression for each version remains the same 
anyway, every DP will in time become an RC, then eventually Stable.


We both recognize that waiting until Stable isn't a good choice, so then 
it's down to just DP vs RC.


But for me, there's no "vs".  I use recent builds for development so I 
can asses recent bug-fix status.  Anything else is like living in the past.


I've had a few cases where I've reported issues against older builds 
that had already been fixed.  Since I switched to the most recent builds 
that rarely happens (though sometimes the team is faster than my 
reporting anyway ).


Catch issues early on, save the community the time spent encountering 
them, and they can return the favor with the ones they find.


Whether we call them "DP", "RC", "Bob", "Carol", "Ted", or "Alice" 
doesn't matter as much to me personally as the posting date.  I realize 
they each have different semantic meanings, but my focus is on engine 
quality so my priority is assessing current engine state.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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