Re: Web vs Native (was Re: HTML5 limitations?)

[Scott Morrow via use-livecode]

> On Jul 27, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Matt Maier via use-livecode 
>  wrote:

> High market penetration of smartphones doesn't mean anyone actually has any
> idea how to use their smartphone. Most people are at about the
> Fischer-Price My First Shapes and Colors level. Except that they've aged
> out of the phase where it's easy to learn new things. So they feel like an
> idiot baby and it takes way too much effort to push through the learning
> curve.


Lovely!  :- )

Scott Morrow

Elementary Software
(Now with 20% less chalk dust!)
web   http://elementarysoftware.com/
email sc...@elementarysoftware.com
--








___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Web vs Native (was Re: HTML5 limitations?)

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Word. I barely have any experience and I've already run into multiple
users/customers who think that "add to homescreen" is impossible hacker
magic.

High market penetration of smartphones doesn't mean anyone actually has any
idea how to use their smartphone. Most people are at about the
Fischer-Price My First Shapes and Colors level. Except that they've aged
out of the phase where it's easy to learn new things. So they feel like an
idiot baby and it takes way too much effort to push through the learning
curve.

A lot of developers use "hybrid apps" (like PhoneGap) as the quickest,
easiest way to get a web app into the app store(s). It doesn't actually
have an app in it. It's basically just a browser with a built-in link to
the web app. But there are a lot of users who don't understand how to use
the app if it's not in the app store.

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Which point illustrates something I'm sure seasoned developers have known
> for a long time: There is no way to write an app so that it will satisfy
> everyone, especially these days with all the ways to deliver an app!
>
> To illustrate, I had a gal here in the office lose some documents, because
> I had to reinitialize the copier HD in order to fix a problem that
> installing a web app for the copier had caused. Come to find out, she scans
> documents and keeps them stored on the copier for many days until she can
> get around to processing them. I asked her why she didn't just scan the
> documents directly into our document management app, and she said she
> doesn't do things that way, but instead uses Acrobat (or some other app) to
> COMBINE THE SCANNED DOCUMENTS WITH EXISTING PDF DOCUMENTS! All documents
> become one PDF!
>
> So I told her that it would be much better having each kind of document as
> a discreet document, so that routing each document somewhere else would not
> require her to pull the document apart again. Her response was, "This is
> the way I have always done it. This is the way I will always do it. I am
> not going to change!"
>
> Oh kay then. Turns out you cannot program around human will.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Jul 27, 2017, at 09:03 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > But we're making an app anyway, because of feedback from his customers
> which suggests that using bookmarks on mobile is too onerous.  They
> expressed a very strong preference for having in icon on their home screen,
> and even the one step needed to put a bookmark on their home screen was
> perceived as too difficult.  They'd much rather find, download, and install
> an app just to get an easy launch.
> >
> > --
> > Richard Gaskin
>
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Web vs Native (was Re: HTML5 limitations?)

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Which point illustrates something I'm sure seasoned developers have known for a 
long time: There is no way to write an app so that it will satisfy everyone, 
especially these days with all the ways to deliver an app! 

To illustrate, I had a gal here in the office lose some documents, because I 
had to reinitialize the copier HD in order to fix a problem that installing a 
web app for the copier had caused. Come to find out, she scans documents and 
keeps them stored on the copier for many days until she can get around to 
processing them. I asked her why she didn't just scan the documents directly 
into our document management app, and she said she doesn't do things that way, 
but instead uses Acrobat (or some other app) to COMBINE THE SCANNED DOCUMENTS 
WITH EXISTING PDF DOCUMENTS! All documents become one PDF! 

So I told her that it would be much better having each kind of document as a 
discreet document, so that routing each document somewhere else would not 
require her to pull the document apart again. Her response was, "This is the 
way I have always done it. This is the way I will always do it. I am not going 
to change!" 

Oh kay then. Turns out you cannot program around human will. 

Bob S


> On Jul 27, 2017, at 09:03 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> But we're making an app anyway, because of feedback from his customers which 
> suggests that using bookmarks on mobile is too onerous.  They expressed a 
> very strong preference for having in icon on their home screen, and even the 
> one step needed to put a bookmark on their home screen was perceived as too 
> difficult.  They'd much rather find, download, and install an app just to get 
> an easy launch.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Web vs Native (was Re: HTML5 limitations?)

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

hh wrote:

>> RG wrote:
>> - What are the use-cases where a native app is a better choice than
>>   a web app?
>> - What are the perceived benefits of web apps and native apps?
>> The first question is about actual capabilities, and the second
>> is about the psychological drivers of clients and customers,
>> which may or may not reflect those capabilities.
>
> Yes. More specific and very clear now.
>
> The answer to the first question is of course: Native is always better
> performant.

Good point.  Not having to download the UI and code each time you use an 
app helps.  But isn't that mitigated somewhat with modern local storage 
options in browsers?



> But with a web app you have "all-in-one": For example, no nasty switch
> to an other app for a simple "wiki"-info, or for some lines of
> feed-back, or for looking into news. A web app means: You are already
> "surfing".  These are my experiences from discussions with non-IT
> users/clients/customers

This is part of why I raised the question, as I came across a use-case 
with a client recently that was very much the opposite:


He has a service which is simple enough that it could be well served in 
a web app.  Seemed like a good idea to me - write it once, available to 
everyone everywhere, no app store headaches, no platform-specific 
considerations.


But we're making an app anyway, because of feedback from his customers 
which suggests that using bookmarks on mobile is too onerous.  They 
expressed a very strong preference for having in icon on their home 
screen, and even the one step needed to put a bookmark on their home 
screen was perceived as too difficult.  They'd much rather find, 
download, and install an app just to get an easy launch.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Web vs Native (was Re: HTML5 limitations?)

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Add to list as necessary. I've already pulled in a few items from other posts. 
We can come up with a referendum/consensus on the topic. 

Traditional Apps:
UP SIDE
Better performance
No dependent on an internet connection (if server is not installed locally)
Many people still prefer to own product outright
Product keeps working even if company goes belly up
Generally has access to system resources that allowing a web app to have may be 
problematic
Information is locally secured and controlled

DOWN SIDE
Require advanced development personel to produce (high cost)
Can be cumbersome to upgrade/update
Use local storage
OS Update can make app buggy or unusable
Data must be secured and backed up by trained professionals 

Web Apps:
UP SIDE
Nothing to download
Purchases can be subscription based, guaranteeing steady income stream (upside 
for the dev!)
Generally universal (provided they are developed to be so)
Sites are typically high availability (given good ISP SLA and servers running 
in data center)

DOWN SIDE
Dependent on internet connection availability and speed
Purchases are typically subscription based (downside for the consumer!)
Prone to drive by attacks (site is compromised)


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Web vs Native (was Re: HTML5 limitations?)

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> hh wrote:
> >> RG wrote:
> >> My bigger question here is what needs to be delivered specifically
> >> in a web browser window vs a native app, and why?
> >
> > This questions browsers ("the web") as platform in general.
> > TMHO, you are too late with that question, by 25 years.
>
> Perhaps just poor writing on my part.  I'm not questioning whether web
> pages exist or are useful.  Of course they are.
>
> As I think about this more, there seem to be two question here:
>
> - What are the use-cases where a native app is a better choice
>   than a web app?
>

- when the app needs access to the phone's functions (notifications, GPS,
screen dimming, text messages, etc)
- when it's important that at least some of the app's features work in
degraded/denied signal environments (no/low data)
- when your users don't understand what they're doing and insist that they
can't find your web app in the app store
- when you want to ensure that you control the experience; a web app is
accessed through the browser which means the browser's navigation and
settings take priority


>
> - What are the perceived benefits of web apps and native apps?
>

- web apps make your app instantly available to everyone in the world who
has internet and a browser
- web apps automatically "support" all operating systems and devices,
provided they have internet and a browser
- web apps don't have to compromise with any of the app stores; you can
offer anything you want whenever you want
- web apps have more direct access to other web services, so if you need to
leverage them it can be easier

- native apps can easily be more expensive than web apps for the same
functionality because they have more and more specific standards

- there are several "hybrid app" options where you get something installed
on the phone but it's just the bare minimum, not the whole app; usually
it's a native browser that only navigates to the web app


>
> The first question is about actual capabilities, and the second is about
> the psychological drivers of clients and customers, which may or may not
> reflect those capabilities.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode