RE: LiveCode 9.0.5

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

9.5 has a lot of other things that will take more effort to merge and test
all the bug fixes. 9.5 has features that could cause regressions. LC
released 9.0.5 to push out the bug fixes faster. LC apparently wanted to get
us all the bug fixes for users that don't need:
1) Xcode 11.1 / iOS 13.1 SDK.
2) 4 Android architectures.
3) 64 bit Windows apps/IDE.
4) PDF widget.

I need 9.5 for only some of my applications. I have apps that I can use
9.0.5 for. The 9.0.5 bug fixes/memory leak repair/debugger fixes will be of
great help for over 1/2 of the projects I'm currently working on. For me
9.0.5 is a welcome release. Just installed 9.0.5 and am going to have some
fun putting it through the paces this weekend(new toys!). I'm curious to see
how the fixed leaks will help my DB processing apps!
I've been doing a lot of JavaScript/LC server lately and I push as much if
it back to the server where LC makes development MUCH faster. Bottom line
==> LC has saved my company.

Thanks team for 9.0.5!

PS: I had several apps stop working last month because a 3rd party provider
changed their API without warning(egg on face). Thanks to MW's detective
work I was able to fix it fast. I have never seen a community come to each
other help like the one we have. An MS update broke another app last year
because of security changes. At least we have access to the LC team. That
3rd party provider did not even answer my email and well MS... Try to get
Apple to make an emergency fix, good luck. I want to thank the entire LC
team and all you folks on the list for making my life better. Now if I only
had JLG's time machine I'd be golden.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Richmond via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2019 2:26 PM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Cc: Richmond
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5

I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable, as surely it has been
superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?

After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".

I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases released
after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version numbers work in the
"great scheme of thing?"

Richmond.



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Re: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")

[Alex Tweedly via use-livecode]

Thank you Richard for diverting us onto a more productive direction.

This won't be my only reply to this thread. This is mostly a discussion 
of  "what do I want", rather than "what can we do".


On 04/10/2019 18:47, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

"Where would we like LiveCode to be?"

Usually we think of a spectrum  "good, better, best ...", or perhaps 
"easy, easier, easiest".


But in this context, the spectrum is backwards. We already have (IMO)

LC is *the easiest* environment/language to develop cross-platform 
apps for all major platforms

but I think we need to aim MUCH higher; I want to see

LC is *an easy* environment/language to develop cross-platform apps 
for all major platforms



That's right - it's already "easiest", but it's not "easy".

Currently you can't write even very simple apps using the 'built-in', 
cross-platform features and get something acceptable for the mobile 
platforms. You need to use some combination of "mobileXXX' and  
"iosXXX'" or "androidXXX" functions to get something that is even 
remotely acceptable as a 'finished' app.


We even have an entire (ok, short :-) lesson on how to create a 
scrolling text field !!


In this lesson we will see how to set up a native mobile scroller to 
allow you to scroll the contents of a field.
IMHO, LC's built-in scrolling text field should do this (or whatever 
variation of this is needed) so that any scrolling text field will work, 
and look, and behave, as a user of each major platform would expect.


And if that is not possible, then we should have instead some new 
control, say "portable field" which abstracts out as much functionality 
as we can achieve cross-all-platform into easy-to-use controls. (And can 
probably use some clever backwards-compatability trick to allow easy 
porting of existing apps).


It's not just fields - for example "mobilePickDate" should *not* exist - 
there should just be a "pickDate" handler that works on all platforms; 
there should be a "textInput" handler that does 'the best it can' to 
provide appropriate functionality on *all* platforms - even if that 
means there are limitations in some implementations. Et cetera.



Of course, we also have to look at the problems of build / deployment on 
iOS and Android. There's lots of info about PWAs (Progressive Web Apps) 
- so much of it covered in so much hype and marketing, that as a casual 
reader I can't figure out exactly what to believe :-)  And my interest 
in spending time digging into it is limited by the fact that if it 
doesn't involve using Livecode then I'm almost certainly not interested :-)


But if even 25% of the hype is true, then it *should* be possible to 
produce such a web app with/from Livecode; all we need is offline 
operation/database or storage, pre-downloaded/installed executables, 
etc.  Even if this (again) required that we forego some of the existing 
controls (e.g. removing the current field, in favour of a portable 
field'), it should be possible to get a large subset of functionality on 
a way that can be deployed to all platforms.



OK, enough for tonight; more semi-rants tomorrow, and hopefully some 
actual useful suggestions by Monday :-) :-)


Alex.



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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Sorry, I didn't see it until January. It must have been forwarded.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 4, 2019 2:13:59 PM "Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode" 
 wrote:


On Oct 4, 2019, at 9:27 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
 wrote:


Talk to Jacgue about that. Bring extra socks.



I’ll bring it up when we meet last week.  She seems to have misplaced next 
month’s message . . .


—
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462

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Re: LiveCode 9.0.5

[Dalton Calford via use-livecode]

9.05 is for the foolish people who bought the special indy license for
version 9
You know, the people who where expecting a stable product that was feature
complete for the version.
Unfortunately, such a beast does not exist.
I will not make the same mistake again.

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 19:21, Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Yes, any bug fixes in 9.0.5 will be (or have been) merged into the 9.5
> branch.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 4, 2019, 4:01 PM -0400, JJS via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > I understand, but these will be merged into 9.5.x ? right?
> >
> > I might think people will go to 9.5.x instead of 9.0.5
> >
> > Op 4-10-2019 om 21:47 schreef Brian Milby via use-livecode:
> > > 9.0.x merely fixes bugs
> > > 9.5 is a feature bump release (and 9.5.x will be subsequent bug fix
> releases)
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Brian
> > > On Oct 4, 2019, 2:26 PM -0400, Richmond via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > > > I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
> > > > as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?
> > > >
> > > > After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".
> > > >
> > > > I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
> > > > released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
> > > > numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"
> > > >
> > > > Richmond.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
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Re: LiveCode 9.0.5

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

Yes, any bug fixes in 9.0.5 will be (or have been) merged into the 9.5 branch.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 4, 2019, 4:01 PM -0400, JJS via use-livecode 
, wrote:
> I understand, but these will be merged into 9.5.x ? right?
>
> I might think people will go to 9.5.x instead of 9.0.5
>
> Op 4-10-2019 om 21:47 schreef Brian Milby via use-livecode:
> > 9.0.x merely fixes bugs
> > 9.5 is a feature bump release (and 9.5.x will be subsequent bug fix 
> > releases)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brian
> > On Oct 4, 2019, 2:26 PM -0400, Richmond via use-livecode 
> > , wrote:
> > > I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
> > > as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?
> > >
> > > After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".
> > >
> > > I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
> > > released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
> > > numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"
> > >
> > > Richmond.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > subscription preferences:
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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

On an old sock. Which explains why it's missing. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 14:52 , Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> That’s because she won’t write that message until a few months from now...
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On Oct 4, 2019, at 5:10 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Talk to Jacgue about that. Bring extra socks. 
>> 
>> 
>> I?ll bring it up when we meet last week.  She seems to have misplaced next 
>> month?s message . . .
> 

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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode]

That’s because she won’t write that message until a few months from now...

Jeff

On Oct 4, 2019, at 5:10 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Talk to Jacgue about that. Bring extra socks. 
> 
> 
> I?ll bring it up when we meet last week.  She seems to have misplaced next 
> month?s message . . .


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Re: Always negative

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

BTW, LiveCode has set up their own Kickstarter-type web site in the past. 
Maybe they'd be willing to help with that if they aren't too busy.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 4, 2019 3:51:49 AM Richmond via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Yes, I am willing to organise a fundraiser to help finance ironing out
LiveCode bugs.

I am, however, not sure how to go about that;

1. Set up a 'thing' on Indiegogo (because this is not a fund-raiser to
have a set lower limit)?

2. Link it to a dedicated bank account belonging to LiveCode?

3. Perform some sort of triage to rank LC bugs?

4. Have a way to award badges for people who donate to squash particular
bugs?

I believe that this is quite a useful model:
https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/

If this would work I am more than willing to "put my time where my mouth
is" and run this.

On 4.10.19 9:51, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

The fundraiser idea has been discussed before in regard to desired new
feature requests but it could easily be done for bugs as well. It only
needs someone to organize it. Are you willing?

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

On October 4, 2019 12:20:32 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode
 wrote:


Not entirely.


I can put for what I regard as a positive suggestion. Whether it is
doable
and makes any business sense is a big question.


Stop all continuing development for a fixed period of time (6 months,
say)
and attempt to sort out as many of the outstanding bugs as possible.


Have a fundraiser where individuals could sponsor specific bugs and
features they really wanted seeing to.


Even "Awful Richmond" would stump up some money for that.
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Re: Always negative

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Figuring it out is one of the challenges. I think you'd first need to 
prioritize the bugs you and others want fixed, which may be the hardest 
part. I know LC faces that daily, their criteria is to prioritize by 
severity and/or by the number of people the issue impacts. You and whoever 
joins you may want to add different ways of measuring it.


Once you have a few pinned down, you'd want to check with the team to see 
how many hours and how much it might cost. Then you'd have a target goal.


I wouldn't personally use Indigogo because if the goal isn't reached the 
money is not returned. Kickstarter doesn't require payment until the goal 
is fully pledged. There are probably other ways to do it, that would be up 
to the organizer to research.


Then you'll need to wait to see if anyone pledges/pays/whatever and the 
target is met. If so, you hand over the money to LC and move on to the next 
target if you like.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 4, 2019 3:51:49 AM Richmond via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Yes, I am willing to organise a fundraiser to help finance ironing out
LiveCode bugs.

I am, however, not sure how to go about that;

1. Set up a 'thing' on Indiegogo (because this is not a fund-raiser to
have a set lower limit)?

2. Link it to a dedicated bank account belonging to LiveCode?

3. Perform some sort of triage to rank LC bugs?

4. Have a way to award badges for people who donate to squash particular
bugs?

I believe that this is quite a useful model:
https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/

If this would work I am more than willing to "put my time where my mouth
is" and run this.

On 4.10.19 9:51, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

The fundraiser idea has been discussed before in regard to desired new
feature requests but it could easily be done for bugs as well. It only
needs someone to organize it. Are you willing?

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

On October 4, 2019 12:20:32 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode
 wrote:


Not entirely.


I can put for what I regard as a positive suggestion. Whether it is
doable
and makes any business sense is a big question.


Stop all continuing development for a fixed period of time (6 months,
say)
and attempt to sort out as many of the outstanding bugs as possible.


Have a fundraiser where individuals could sponsor specific bugs and
features they really wanted seeing to.


Even "Awful Richmond" would stump up some money for that.
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Re: LiveCode 9.0.5

[JJS via use-livecode]

I understand, but these will be merged into 9.5.x ? right?

I might think people will go to 9.5.x instead of 9.0.5

Op 4-10-2019 om 21:47 schreef Brian Milby via use-livecode:

9.0.x merely fixes bugs
9.5 is a feature bump release (and 9.5.x will be subsequent bug fix releases)

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 4, 2019, 2:26 PM -0400, Richmond via use-livecode 
, wrote:

I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?

After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".

I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"

Richmond.



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Re: LiveCode 9.0.5

[JJS via use-livecode]

Yep, that's something i also do not fully understand, as 9.5.0 is of 
both worlds 32 and 64 bits


Op 4-10-2019 om 20:25 schreef Richmond via use-livecode:

I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?

After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".

I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"

Richmond.



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Re: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")

[JJS via use-livecode]

I agree with this, Livecode gives fairly quick insight in the 
programming process


Op 4-10-2019 om 20:09 schreef Richmond via use-livecode:

I would like LiveCode to be "up there" in the top 5 of languages
used in school world-wide for teaching within the next 10 years.

I would like private educational institutions to invest in LiveCode
and supply large-scale feedback to LiveCode Central as to any
educational enhancements they may feel will improve the IDE for 
teaching purposes.


For this to happen LiveCode has to be integrated into the curricula of 
standardised

examinations.

In England and Scotland educationalists are complaining about an 
alarming decrease
in high-school students enrolling in programming classes. I believe a 
lot of this is due
to an extremely steep start to the learning curve offered by the 
languages that are
currently "up there" and that LiveCode offers a far, far gentler entry 
point to

young learners.

Richmond.

On 4.10.19 20:47, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

The question was: Where is LiveCode now?

It's in the 21st century, where proprietary software continues to 
thrive in consumer segments, but nearly all infrastructure and dev 
tools are Free and Open Source.


Compare and contrast:

-
Python in the third most popular language in the world.

Python is a language engine only. It has no IDE of its own, relying 
on third-party tools.  It has no packaging tools built in for mobile, 
and third-party offerings are so scarce that there are fewer Python 
apps in the mobile app stores than there are made with LiveCode.  
Even things we take for granted like having any user interface at all 
are treated like an afterthought, achievable only with your research 
into the various third-party options for such things, and your 
willingness to learn and integrate those add-on frameworks.


Python has many major players funding it:
https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/

Python has a very active community, with few on payroll and most pull 
requests coming from the community.


-
LiveCode has made it into TIOBE's Top 100 languages list, but 
currently in the lower 50.


LiveCode has similar platform coverage, but with a rich IDE, built-in 
mobile packaging, and GUI support that's not merely included but an 
integral part of the language.


While LC has thousands of subscribers for the proprietary editions, 
it has no sponsors as big as Facebook, CapitalOne, AWS, or Google 
funding it. Even among the many companies deriving significant value 
from LC, some of the most successful businesses using LC for internal 
tools often use the Community edition and make few if any donations.


The LC community has only about half a dozen community members 
submitting pull requests with any regularity (big THANK YOU to those 
who do), despite half the project, the IDE, being written in the 
scripting language everyone in the community knows and loves.


-

In short, LiveCode delivers more, and does so with fewer resources.

In too many ways to count, comparisons between languages will always 
be unfair, and this oversimplified summary is no exception.  Details 
about history, shifting markets over time, and more than a little 
random luck play a role in adoption as much as anything else.


So I mean no disrespect to our scripting cousins using Python when I 
note how much LC delivers.


But I do mean to illustrate how much LC Ltd accomplishes with the 
resources at their disposal.


Rather than rebut the wealth of Dunning-Kruger inspired kvetching 
that has come to characterize a small corner of this community, or to 
contribute any kvetching of my own, I believe it's more productive to 
make choices about how we use our time which support productive 
outcomes.


To reorient, rather than ask, "Where is LiveCode now?", we might ask:

"Where would we like LiveCode to be?"

And when we have the luxury to choose how we spend our time, maybe we 
could choose to spend that time making what we want to have.


I would like to propose this forked thread be used to brainstorm 
ideas for how we can use time that might be spent on less productive 
outcomes toward having what we want with LC.


As good ideas emerge, I will do what I can in the role of Community 
Laison to help steward such things along.


But please, I forked this thread for a reason:  this is for 
initiatives to move things forward, to have what we want. Please use 
other threads for other purposes.  I find across much of life that 
when I spend too much time focused on things I don't want, it stifles 
awareness of opportunities to have what I do want.


Lets have what we want.

"Make it so, Number One."





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Re: LiveCode 9.0.5

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

9.0.x merely fixes bugs
9.5 is a feature bump release (and 9.5.x will be subsequent bug fix releases)

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 4, 2019, 2:26 PM -0400, Richmond via use-livecode 
, wrote:
> I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
> as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?
>
> After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".
>
> I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
> released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
> numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"
>
> Richmond.
>
>
>
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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Oct 4, 2019, at 9:27 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
 wrote:
> 
> Talk to Jacgue about that. Bring extra socks. 


I’ll bring it up when we meet last week.  She seems to have misplaced next 
month’s message . . .

— 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462

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LiveCode 9.0.5

[Richmond via use-livecode]

I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?

After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".

I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"

Richmond.



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Re: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")

[Richmond via use-livecode]

I would like LiveCode to be "up there" in the top 5 of languages
used in school world-wide for teaching within the next 10 years.

I would like private educational institutions to invest in LiveCode
and supply large-scale feedback to LiveCode Central as to any
educational enhancements they may feel will improve the IDE for teaching 
purposes.


For this to happen LiveCode has to be integrated into the curricula of 
standardised

examinations.

In England and Scotland educationalists are complaining about an 
alarming decrease
in high-school students enrolling in programming classes. I believe a 
lot of this is due
to an extremely steep start to the learning curve offered by the 
languages that are
currently "up there" and that LiveCode offers a far, far gentler entry 
point to

young learners.

Richmond.

On 4.10.19 20:47, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

The question was: Where is LiveCode now?

It's in the 21st century, where proprietary software continues to 
thrive in consumer segments, but nearly all infrastructure and dev 
tools are Free and Open Source.


Compare and contrast:

-
Python in the third most popular language in the world.

Python is a language engine only. It has no IDE of its own, relying on 
third-party tools.  It has no packaging tools built in for mobile, and 
third-party offerings are so scarce that there are fewer Python apps 
in the mobile app stores than there are made with LiveCode.  Even 
things we take for granted like having any user interface at all are 
treated like an afterthought, achievable only with your research into 
the various third-party options for such things, and your willingness 
to learn and integrate those add-on frameworks.


Python has many major players funding it:
https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/

Python has a very active community, with few on payroll and most pull 
requests coming from the community.


-
LiveCode has made it into TIOBE's Top 100 languages list, but 
currently in the lower 50.


LiveCode has similar platform coverage, but with a rich IDE, built-in 
mobile packaging, and GUI support that's not merely included but an 
integral part of the language.


While LC has thousands of subscribers for the proprietary editions, it 
has no sponsors as big as Facebook, CapitalOne, AWS, or Google funding 
it. Even among the many companies deriving significant value from LC, 
some of the most successful businesses using LC for internal tools 
often use the Community edition and make few if any donations.


The LC community has only about half a dozen community members 
submitting pull requests with any regularity (big THANK YOU to those 
who do), despite half the project, the IDE, being written in the 
scripting language everyone in the community knows and loves.


-

In short, LiveCode delivers more, and does so with fewer resources.

In too many ways to count, comparisons between languages will always 
be unfair, and this oversimplified summary is no exception.  Details 
about history, shifting markets over time, and more than a little 
random luck play a role in adoption as much as anything else.


So I mean no disrespect to our scripting cousins using Python when I 
note how much LC delivers.


But I do mean to illustrate how much LC Ltd accomplishes with the 
resources at their disposal.


Rather than rebut the wealth of Dunning-Kruger inspired kvetching that 
has come to characterize a small corner of this community, or to 
contribute any kvetching of my own, I believe it's more productive to 
make choices about how we use our time which support productive outcomes.


To reorient, rather than ask, "Where is LiveCode now?", we might ask:

"Where would we like LiveCode to be?"

And when we have the luxury to choose how we spend our time, maybe we 
could choose to spend that time making what we want to have.


I would like to propose this forked thread be used to brainstorm ideas 
for how we can use time that might be spent on less productive 
outcomes toward having what we want with LC.


As good ideas emerge, I will do what I can in the role of Community 
Laison to help steward such things along.


But please, I forked this thread for a reason:  this is for 
initiatives to move things forward, to have what we want.  Please use 
other threads for other purposes.  I find across much of life that 
when I spend too much time focused on things I don't want, it stifles 
awareness of opportunities to have what I do want.


Lets have what we want.

"Make it so, Number One."





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Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

The question was: Where is LiveCode now?

It's in the 21st century, where proprietary software continues to thrive 
in consumer segments, but nearly all infrastructure and dev tools are 
Free and Open Source.


Compare and contrast:

-
Python in the third most popular language in the world.

Python is a language engine only. It has no IDE of its own, relying on 
third-party tools.  It has no packaging tools built in for mobile, and 
third-party offerings are so scarce that there are fewer Python apps in 
the mobile app stores than there are made with LiveCode.  Even things we 
take for granted like having any user interface at all are treated like 
an afterthought, achievable only with your research into the various 
third-party options for such things, and your willingness to learn and 
integrate those add-on frameworks.


Python has many major players funding it:
https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/

Python has a very active community, with few on payroll and most pull 
requests coming from the community.


-
LiveCode has made it into TIOBE's Top 100 languages list, but currently 
in the lower 50.


LiveCode has similar platform coverage, but with a rich IDE, built-in 
mobile packaging, and GUI support that's not merely included but an 
integral part of the language.


While LC has thousands of subscribers for the proprietary editions, it 
has no sponsors as big as Facebook, CapitalOne, AWS, or Google funding 
it. Even among the many companies deriving significant value from LC, 
some of the most successful businesses using LC for internal tools often 
use the Community edition and make few if any donations.


The LC community has only about half a dozen community members 
submitting pull requests with any regularity (big THANK YOU to those who 
do), despite half the project, the IDE, being written in the scripting 
language everyone in the community knows and loves.


-

In short, LiveCode delivers more, and does so with fewer resources.

In too many ways to count, comparisons between languages will always be 
unfair, and this oversimplified summary is no exception.  Details about 
history, shifting markets over time, and more than a little random luck 
play a role in adoption as much as anything else.


So I mean no disrespect to our scripting cousins using Python when I 
note how much LC delivers.


But I do mean to illustrate how much LC Ltd accomplishes with the 
resources at their disposal.


Rather than rebut the wealth of Dunning-Kruger inspired kvetching that 
has come to characterize a small corner of this community, or to 
contribute any kvetching of my own, I believe it's more productive to 
make choices about how we use our time which support productive outcomes.


To reorient, rather than ask, "Where is LiveCode now?", we might ask:

"Where would we like LiveCode to be?"

And when we have the luxury to choose how we spend our time, maybe we 
could choose to spend that time making what we want to have.


I would like to propose this forked thread be used to brainstorm ideas 
for how we can use time that might be spent on less productive outcomes 
toward having what we want with LC.


As good ideas emerge, I will do what I can in the role of Community 
Laison to help steward such things along.


But please, I forked this thread for a reason:  this is for initiatives 
to move things forward, to have what we want.  Please use other threads 
for other purposes.  I find across much of life that when I spend too 
much time focused on things I don't want, it stifles awareness of 
opportunities to have what I do want.


Lets have what we want.

"Make it so, Number One."


--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Laison


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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

The original question mentioned testing and debugging. 

I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to develop on 
Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm using some Windows 
specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.

It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up Windows 
workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I prefer to have my 
big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I currently use no-machine to 
access Windows machines.

The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me 
however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard to test 
with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often one needs real 
hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as emulating hardware, but I 
need to test on real stuff.

So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk, but I/O. 
I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I want board slots. I 
want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope 
to build a computation server someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well 
as handling multiple monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I 
use no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be 
Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with something I 
neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for everything if I can.) 
For a different machine, I might want something with a touch screen that I can 
carry around.

In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.

And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us old guys.

As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I want to 
see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is good, but I have 
found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual Box says yes. What good is 
higher RPM when you can't get it into reverse? In general, virtualization 
allows me to swap out hardware or display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. 
Network configuration testing? No searching for switches, routers and cables. 

Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see a big 
performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual Box 6 on Mac 
Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on MacMini. That could be my 
imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower, but it did not affect me. I 
typically use a LAN drive for such testing, anyway, unless the tests directly 
involve a local drive.

I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual machines and 
to load on real machines. However, things seem to be different. Now the best 
way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for the first year, $800 for 
subsequent. 

Dar
Mad Scientist


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended specs 
> for Windows Development computer"
> 
> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows 
> hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)
> 
> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows 
> only" experience:
> 
> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen a Mac 
> running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, and similar 
> results.
> 
> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands dirty 
> on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more
> 
> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) 
> laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip and 8 
> GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
> 
> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any extra 
> power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to overlook 
> issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use budget hardware 
> to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
> 
> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various other 
> software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of your 
> machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and chains.
> 
> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which felt 
> so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence on your 
> perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a system 
> efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. (There once was 
> a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty much broke that rule. 
> And during those bygone years, I was proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") 
> Whatever OS you use, just realize that many everyday users are equally 
> efficient on the other operating systems.
> 
> I like having and using both almost

Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Marty Knapp via use-livecode]

I use Parallels + Windows 10 and a while back I switched to an SSD drive - wow 
what a difference that made, especially boot up time. I could never go back to 
using a virtual machine on a standard hard drive.

Marty

> On Oct 4, 2019, at 9:33 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Martin Koob wrote:
> > I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
> > need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows
> > environment.
> >
> > Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC—
> > processor, speed, RAM, etc.
> 
> Running Windows on metal is nice, but not very convenient compared to a VM 
> and rarely actually needed.
> 
> I keep a couple machines here with Windows installed as boot (Win7 and 
> Win10), and I can't recall the last time I needed to test with them, even for 
> a project I've been working on writing an interface for a client's custom 
> USB-driven hardware.
> 
> If you go metal, go cheap.  You won't be using it often anyway, and a machine 
> at or below average consumer specs helps inspire lean code that delights your 
> customers, while keeping a little extra money in your pocket for important 
> things like a nice dinner out.  CPUs a generation or two behind will still 
> give you plenty of useful lifespan, yet are often discounted as most folks 
> clamor for the Latest and Greatest.
> 
> 4GB RAM is a reasonable minimum for a testing machine.  Almost nothing worth 
> using ships with less these days.
> 
> If you do use a separate physical machine, I can't say enough good things 
> about the value of having your work files and LC Plugins folder synced via 
> Nextcloud or other folder syncing system (Dropbox et al). This will automate 
> transfers between machines, saving a lot of the annoyance of manual copies.  
> And for my Plugins folder it's been awesome - no matter where I'm working I 
> always know I have my latest toolkit.
> 
> 
> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few 
> years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else 
> since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found 
> VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
> 
> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, 
> hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS 
> has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
> 
> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB 
> feels luxurious.
> 
> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the 
> present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for 
> testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin up 
> VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and 
> tomorrow.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
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> preferences:
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Just to add something here. Using an SSD instead of an HDD will make a crappy 
computer run like a decent one. Hard Drive data transfer is the single most 
important factor in the speed of a computer. Some might say memory, but more 
memory makes it faster only because the HDD needs to be accessed less for 
Virtual Memory, hence making my point for me. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 09:33 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Martin Koob wrote:
> > I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
> > need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows
> > environment.
> >
> > Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC—
> > processor, speed, RAM, etc.
> 
> Running Windows on metal is nice, but not very convenient compared to a VM 
> and rarely actually needed.
> 
> I keep a couple machines here with Windows installed as boot (Win7 and 
> Win10), and I can't recall the last time I needed to test with them, even for 
> a project I've been working on writing an interface for a client's custom 
> USB-driven hardware.

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Martin Koob wrote:
> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
> need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows
> environment.
>
> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC—
> processor, speed, RAM, etc.

Running Windows on metal is nice, but not very convenient compared to a 
VM and rarely actually needed.


I keep a couple machines here with Windows installed as boot (Win7 and 
Win10), and I can't recall the last time I needed to test with them, 
even for a project I've been working on writing an interface for a 
client's custom USB-driven hardware.


If you go metal, go cheap.  You won't be using it often anyway, and a 
machine at or below average consumer specs helps inspire lean code that 
delights your customers, while keeping a little extra money in your 
pocket for important things like a nice dinner out.  CPUs a generation 
or two behind will still give you plenty of useful lifespan, yet are 
often discounted as most folks clamor for the Latest and Greatest.


4GB RAM is a reasonable minimum for a testing machine.  Almost nothing 
worth using ships with less these days.


If you do use a separate physical machine, I can't say enough good 
things about the value of having your work files and LC Plugins folder 
synced via Nextcloud or other folder syncing system (Dropbox et al). 
This will automate transfers between machines, saving a lot of the 
annoyance of manual copies.  And for my Plugins folder it's been awesome 
- no matter where I'm working I always know I have my latest toolkit.



All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a 
few years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used 
anything else since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used 
Parallels I found VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction 
of the time.


With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, 
hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the 
test OS has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.


Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 
16 GB feels luxurious.


Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is 
the present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't 
matter for testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be 
useful to spin up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the 
action is today, and tomorrow.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Tell your girlfriend/wife that you generally like her, but she has annoying 
issues. I hope the couch is comfy. LOL! 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 08:35 , Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> Agreed... I held out to the bitter end with XP(security) then Win 7(EOL
> 1/2020) So I went to 10.
> Whilst Win 10 does have its annoying issues(forced updates) I generally like
> it. 


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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Talk to Jacgue about that. Bring extra socks. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 04:36 , Heather Laine via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> We do not as yet have the ability to time travel in order to prevent the 
> issue having arisen.


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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[Kurt Kaufman via use-livecode]

There are probably quite a few who, like me, have used LC/RR/MC for years, 
creating in-house labor-saving devices (for myself, they are mostly of the 
variety "pull A,B, and C from X, rearrange them and format them to Y, and spit 
the result out as a text file").  Could I have [attempted] to write these 
un-glamorous utilities in another language? Probably, but I really am not a 
"natural" programmer, so I greatly appreciate the shortcuts to functionality 
that LC provides. I sometimes watch this list for new developments or other 
news, and I am grateful to be able to query it for help when I need a function 
that I can't figure out on my own. Some bumps here and there, but I am like the 
fact that the discourse here is almost always civil.
Thanks!
-Kurt
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 10/4/19 1:55 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:

PS. When "debugging" your antivirus, system settings, and other software 
to make your machine operate more smoothly, it's helpful to open the 
Task Manager and sort the Processes list by Disk. You'll discover the 
issues faster that way. (In previous years, I usually would have sorted 
by Memory or CPU.) Once you get those issues sorted out, your 
cross-platform experience will be very different.


Or do yourself a favor and upgrade to Process Lasso. The free version 
was so impressive that we bought a lifetime license ($36!) some years 
ago and never looked back.


https://bitsum.com/

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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RE: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

Bob,
Agreed... I held out to the bitter end with XP(security) then Win 7(EOL
1/2020) So I went to 10.
Whilst Win 10 does have its annoying issues(forced updates) I generally like
it. I set updates to ask me before updating so I/ME/Mine can decide when to
install. I now run Win 10 Hyper-V with a few VMs with no problems since
2016. 10 is my new XP/7. I would like to have XP and also not get striped
searched at the airport but 10s security and features outweigh my love for
XP and not getting high-jacked outweighs my nostalgia of breezing through
the airport. Change is both good and bad but I flow in the direction of the
least safe resistance.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2019 11:09 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Bob Sneidar
Subject: Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 

If Windows were girlfriends...

I used to hate Windows, back before 1995. I swore I'd never have anything to
do with her, always pretending to be pretty, but it was just a mask over top
of that ugly DOS. Windows 2000... nuther MEH! BORING! 

XP! Now there was an improvement! I actually LIKED XP for a lot of reasons.
Until the "compromising" of MD5 encryption. I could never share anything
intimate with her again. Never mention ME in my presence. EVER! I swear I
never touched her! 

Then there was Windows 7. A, seven. The Hebrew number for Completeness!
How good and sweet that relationship was! I thought it would never end. I
was a changed man. I could love again! 

Then one day Daddy Microsoft busted the door down, took her by the hand,
hauled her out the door and told me I would never see her again. Her ugly
younger sister, Vista stayed behind to comfort me. That turned out badly. I
stopped answering her text messages. She changed her name to Windows 8
thinking I wouldn't notice. Yeah... no. 

Now I'm with Windows 10. Not what I would have asked for, but it's all
that's left to me now. Weighs too much, moves too slow, looks bland, Very
few curves, and is always making me work harder to get what I want from her.
Keeps second guessing me, asking me if I really want to do what I just told
her I wanted to do. Then asks again just to be sure. Sometimes doesn't do it
anyway. Claims it would be "dangerous" and "damaging".  

I will always pine for my Windows 7. I could click her start button and get
her going right away! And I would get exactly what I expected to get. Now, I
have to search for what I want, and most of the time it's suggested I go
elsewhere, like the internet to get it. 

:-)
Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 01:34 , Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
 wrote:
> 
> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for
both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting


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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

If Windows were girlfriends...

I used to hate Windows, back before 1995. I swore I'd never have anything to do 
with her, always pretending to be pretty, but it was just a mask over top of 
that ugly DOS. Windows 2000... nuther MEH! BORING! 

XP! Now there was an improvement! I actually LIKED XP for a lot of reasons. 
Until the "compromising" of MD5 encryption. I could never share anything 
intimate with her again. Never mention ME in my presence. EVER! I swear I never 
touched her! 

Then there was Windows 7. A, seven. The Hebrew number for Completeness! How 
good and sweet that relationship was! I thought it would never end. I was a 
changed man. I could love again! 

Then one day Daddy Microsoft busted the door down, took her by the hand, hauled 
her out the door and told me I would never see her again. Her ugly younger 
sister, Vista stayed behind to comfort me. That turned out badly. I stopped 
answering her text messages. She changed her name to Windows 8 thinking I 
wouldn't notice. Yeah... no. 

Now I'm with Windows 10. Not what I would have asked for, but it's all that's 
left to me now. Weighs too much, moves too slow, looks bland, Very few curves, 
and is always making me work harder to get what I want from her. Keeps second 
guessing me, asking me if I really want to do what I just told her I wanted to 
do. Then asks again just to be sure. Sometimes doesn't do it anyway. Claims it 
would be "dangerous" and "damaging".  

I will always pine for my Windows 7. I could click her start button and get her 
going right away! And I would get exactly what I expected to get. Now, I have 
to search for what I want, and most of the time it's suggested I go elsewhere, 
like the internet to get it. 

:-)
Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 01:34 , Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for 
> both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting


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Re: [ANN] Release 9.0.5

[panagiotis merakos via use-livecode]

Hello Matthias,

This is because of the autoupdated being 32bit only in LC 9.0.5. We have
fixed this in LC 9.5.0 (or in 9.5.1 rc1 which is not released yet - I do
not remember at the moment).

So I _think_ that LC 9.0.5 will continue to work in Catalina, but the
autoupdater will not.

Is there any reason not to use 9.5.0 in Catalina? I mean, is there any bug
affecting 9.5.x but not 9.0.x?

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 17:09, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks Panos and LC Team,
>
> one little question.
>
> LC 9.0.5 Business is showing here the well known  "This app is not
> optimised for your Mac". If LC 9.05 is the last of the 9.0.x release cycle,
> will that mean, that 9.0.5 will not run under Catalina?
>
> Regards,
>
> Matthias
>
>
> Matthias Rebbe
>
> free tools for Livecoders:
> InstaMaker 
> WinSignMaker Mac 
>
> > Am 04.10.2019 um 13:53 schrieb panagiotis merakos via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com >:
> >
> > Dear list members,
> >
> > We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.0.5 STABLE.
> >
> >
> > Getting the Release
> > ===
> > You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ <
> https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/> or via
> > the automatic updater.
> >
> >
> > Release Contents
> > 
> > LiveCode 9.0.5 comes with more than 60 bugfixes, compared to the last
> > stable 9.0.x version (9.0.4), including fixes to several memory leaks
> that
> > had been around for a long time. Moreover, dozens of Dictionary entries
> > have been corrected and enhanced.
> >
> > Finally, the random crashes when using the debugger and
> > adding/removing/stepping through red dot breakpoints have been fixed.
> >
> > Note that this release is the *last* of the 9.0.x release cycle.
> >
> > All these fixes - and many more - will be included in our new maintenance
> > release cycle, that is 9.5.x.
> >
> > New features will now appear in the 9.6.x release cycle.
> >
> >
> > Known issues
> > 
> > - The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros
> with
> > Cinnamon window manager.
> > - The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit
> LTS
> > yet.
> >
> > The full release notes are available from:
> >
> > http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_0_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_0_5.pdf <
> http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_0_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_0_5.pdf>
> >
> >
> > Feedback
> > 
> > Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
> > http://quality.livecode.com/ 
> >
> > We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at
> > http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93 <
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93>
> >
> >
> > Have fun!
> > The LiveCode Team
> > --
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
> Matthias Rebbe
>
> free tools for Livecoders:
> InstaMaker 
> WinSignMaker Mac 
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Re: [ANN] Release 9.0.5

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Thanks Panos and LC Team,

one little question. 

LC 9.0.5 Business is showing here the well known  "This app is not optimised 
for your Mac". If LC 9.05 is the last of the 9.0.x release cycle, will that 
mean, that 9.0.5 will not run under Catalina?

Regards,

Matthias


Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker 
WinSignMaker Mac 

> Am 04.10.2019 um 13:53 schrieb panagiotis merakos via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Dear list members,
> 
> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.0.5 STABLE.
> 
> 
> Getting the Release
> ===
> You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ 
>  or via
> the automatic updater.
> 
> 
> Release Contents
> 
> LiveCode 9.0.5 comes with more than 60 bugfixes, compared to the last
> stable 9.0.x version (9.0.4), including fixes to several memory leaks that
> had been around for a long time. Moreover, dozens of Dictionary entries
> have been corrected and enhanced.
> 
> Finally, the random crashes when using the debugger and
> adding/removing/stepping through red dot breakpoints have been fixed.
> 
> Note that this release is the *last* of the 9.0.x release cycle.
> 
> All these fixes - and many more - will be included in our new maintenance
> release cycle, that is 9.5.x.
> 
> New features will now appear in the 9.6.x release cycle.
> 
> 
> Known issues
> 
> - The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros with
> Cinnamon window manager.
> - The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit LTS
> yet.
> 
> The full release notes are available from:
> 
> http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_0_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_0_5.pdf 
> 
> 
> 
> Feedback
> 
> Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
> http://quality.livecode.com/ 
> 
> We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93 
> 
> 
> 
> Have fun!
> The LiveCode Team
> --
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker 
WinSignMaker Mac 
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[ANN] Release 9.0.5

[panagiotis merakos via use-livecode]

Dear list members,

We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.0.5 STABLE.


Getting the Release
===
You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via
the automatic updater.


Release Contents

LiveCode 9.0.5 comes with more than 60 bugfixes, compared to the last
stable 9.0.x version (9.0.4), including fixes to several memory leaks that
had been around for a long time. Moreover, dozens of Dictionary entries
have been corrected and enhanced.

Finally, the random crashes when using the debugger and
adding/removing/stepping through red dot breakpoints have been fixed.

Note that this release is the *last* of the 9.0.x release cycle.

All these fixes - and many more - will be included in our new maintenance
release cycle, that is 9.5.x.

New features will now appear in the 9.6.x release cycle.


Known issues

- The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros with
Cinnamon window manager.
- The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit LTS
yet.

The full release notes are available from:

http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_0_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_0_5.pdf


Feedback

Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
http://quality.livecode.com/

We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at
http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93


Have fun!
The LiveCode Team
--
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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[Heather Laine via use-livecode]

Dear Sean,

If you look back through that thread you will see that we did more than 
apologise. We expressed regret, and we also showed willing to jump in and fix 
the issue as soon as was humanly possible. Which is all anyone can do when 
something goes wrong. We do not as yet have the ability to time travel in order 
to prevent the issue having arisen.

It is time to move on from this thread.

Warmest regards,

Heather

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 4 Oct 2019, at 11:28, Pi Digital via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> And there it is (indeed)!! You still managed to get out of apologising to me, 
> LC. Pft! 
> 
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Prod Ltd


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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[Pi Digital via use-livecode]

And there it is (indeed)!! You still managed to get out of apologising to me, 
LC. Pft! 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 4 Oct 2019, at 10:11, Heather Laine via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> :) and there it is. I am happy and relieved to be able to forgive and move 
> on.
> 
> We all want the same thing here: for LiveCode to be hugely successful. Our 
> official BHAG (Big Hairy Audacious Goal, this is real actual terminology 
> believe it or not) as stated in our company articles is and has been for some 
> years to see LiveCode as number 1 on the Tiobe index. Our means for getting 
> there may differ, but we can at least all agree on the goal.
> 
> Onwards and upwards.
> 
> Warmest Regards, 
> 
> Heather
> 
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On 4 Oct 2019, at 10:02, Richmond via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Possibly, on rereading my intemperate posting I should be banished to the 
>> naughty corner at least.
>> 
>> I do apologise for all the obvious offense my posting has caused.
>> 
>> However, I will state that that posting was an explosion of frustration 
>> about some issues I feel are very real indeed.
>> 
>> I do hope that:
>> 
>> 1. You will all forgive me.
>> 
>> 2. Support my coming efforts vis Jacque Landman Gay's message to establish a 
>> fund-raiser to
>> finance a concerted effort at getting as many out-standing bugs in LiveCode 
>> sorted out as possible.
>> 
>> Richmond.
>> 
>>> On 4.10.19 10:46, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:
>>> 
>>> To banish Richmond, or to banish bugs? Which is the bigger problem?
>>> 
>>> Which is more directly responsible for the existence of this thread?
>>> 
>>> I would encourage looking at "net" bugs: bugs fixed, versus bugs introduced 
>>> or regressed, during a time period. In development there are always bugs, 
>>> and there are always fixes. Both the number of bugs and the number fixed 
>>> are pretty impressive. Comparing the two (which takes a while, as we're 
>>> still finding old bugs) might be more meaningful than promoting either on 
>>> its own.
>>> 
>>> Not sure about "net" Richmonds. :)
>>> 
>>> I think reducing net bugs would be a plus all around, and would make a good 
>>> impression on new and old customers. I care about LC, use it exclusively, 
>>> and want the best for it.
>>> 
>>> Reducing net Richmonds could be pleasant superficially (ah, the peace, the 
>>> lack of random vulgarities, witty insults, and topic stew) but might risk 
>>> losing the occasional valuable insight. Not to mention an LC teacher and 
>>> Unicode tester and all-around issue awareness raiser. And a longstanding 
>>> part and practically parcel of this list community, whose missing presence 
>>> might be felt.
>>> 
>>> LC can and will do as they wish, and some order and decency must be 
>>> maintained on any list for that list to survive, but that's my 2 cents as 
>>> an LC well-wisher and thinking only of what LC stands to lose or gain, not 
>>> for myself.
>>> 
>>> I'm part Scottish too, you know? Our genetic curse may be that we bottle in 
>>> all our opinions (the very few we have) and keep it inside our entire 
>>> lives, and never express ourselves in the least. (Ha ha.) For several years 
>>> on some occasions with fairly wild threads I've wanted to joke: for 
>>> goodness sake, speak up for yourself! But I rarely chime in here. I'm 
>>> writing this email now, just in case it's the last opportunity to say that.
>>> 
>>> Hello and bye for now, to everyone, back to work
>>> 
>>> Best wishes,
>>> 
>>> Curry K.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[Heather Laine via use-livecode]

:) and there it is. I am happy and relieved to be able to forgive and move on.

We all want the same thing here: for LiveCode to be hugely successful. Our 
official BHAG (Big Hairy Audacious Goal, this is real actual terminology 
believe it or not) as stated in our company articles is and has been for some 
years to see LiveCode as number 1 on the Tiobe index. Our means for getting 
there may differ, but we can at least all agree on the goal.

Onwards and upwards.

Warmest Regards, 

Heather

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 4 Oct 2019, at 10:02, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Possibly, on rereading my intemperate posting I should be banished to the 
> naughty corner at least.
> 
> I do apologise for all the obvious offense my posting has caused.
> 
> However, I will state that that posting was an explosion of frustration about 
> some issues I feel are very real indeed.
> 
> I do hope that:
> 
> 1. You will all forgive me.
> 
> 2. Support my coming efforts vis Jacque Landman Gay's message to establish a 
> fund-raiser to
> finance a concerted effort at getting as many out-standing bugs in LiveCode 
> sorted out as possible.
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> On 4.10.19 10:46, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>> To banish Richmond, or to banish bugs? Which is the bigger problem?
>> 
>> Which is more directly responsible for the existence of this thread?
>> 
>> I would encourage looking at "net" bugs: bugs fixed, versus bugs introduced 
>> or regressed, during a time period. In development there are always bugs, 
>> and there are always fixes. Both the number of bugs and the number fixed are 
>> pretty impressive. Comparing the two (which takes a while, as we're still 
>> finding old bugs) might be more meaningful than promoting either on its own.
>> 
>> Not sure about "net" Richmonds. :)
>> 
>> I think reducing net bugs would be a plus all around, and would make a good 
>> impression on new and old customers. I care about LC, use it exclusively, 
>> and want the best for it.
>> 
>> Reducing net Richmonds could be pleasant superficially (ah, the peace, the 
>> lack of random vulgarities, witty insults, and topic stew) but might risk 
>> losing the occasional valuable insight. Not to mention an LC teacher and 
>> Unicode tester and all-around issue awareness raiser. And a longstanding 
>> part and practically parcel of this list community, whose missing presence 
>> might be felt.
>> 
>> LC can and will do as they wish, and some order and decency must be 
>> maintained on any list for that list to survive, but that's my 2 cents as an 
>> LC well-wisher and thinking only of what LC stands to lose or gain, not for 
>> myself.
>> 
>> I'm part Scottish too, you know? Our genetic curse may be that we bottle in 
>> all our opinions (the very few we have) and keep it inside our entire lives, 
>> and never express ourselves in the least. (Ha ha.) For several years on some 
>> occasions with fairly wild threads I've wanted to joke: for goodness sake, 
>> speak up for yourself! But I rarely chime in here. I'm writing this email 
>> now, just in case it's the last opportunity to say that.
>> 
>> Hello and bye for now, to everyone, back to work
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Curry K.
>> 
>> ___
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>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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> 
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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Possibly, on rereading my intemperate posting I should be banished to 
the naughty corner at least.


I do apologise for all the obvious offense my posting has caused.

However, I will state that that posting was an explosion of frustration 
about some issues I feel are very real indeed.


I do hope that:

1. You will all forgive me.

2. Support my coming efforts vis Jacque Landman Gay's message to 
establish a fund-raiser to
finance a concerted effort at getting as many out-standing bugs in 
LiveCode sorted out as possible.


Richmond.

On 4.10.19 10:46, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:


To banish Richmond, or to banish bugs? Which is the bigger problem?

Which is more directly responsible for the existence of this thread?

I would encourage looking at "net" bugs: bugs fixed, versus bugs 
introduced or regressed, during a time period. In development there 
are always bugs, and there are always fixes. Both the number of bugs 
and the number fixed are pretty impressive. Comparing the two (which 
takes a while, as we're still finding old bugs) might be more 
meaningful than promoting either on its own.


Not sure about "net" Richmonds. :)

I think reducing net bugs would be a plus all around, and would make a 
good impression on new and old customers. I care about LC, use it 
exclusively, and want the best for it.


Reducing net Richmonds could be pleasant superficially (ah, the peace, 
the lack of random vulgarities, witty insults, and topic stew) but 
might risk losing the occasional valuable insight. Not to mention an 
LC teacher and Unicode tester and all-around issue awareness raiser. 
And a longstanding part and practically parcel of this list community, 
whose missing presence might be felt.


LC can and will do as they wish, and some order and decency must be 
maintained on any list for that list to survive, but that's my 2 cents 
as an LC well-wisher and thinking only of what LC stands to lose or 
gain, not for myself.


I'm part Scottish too, you know? Our genetic curse may be that we 
bottle in all our opinions (the very few we have) and keep it inside 
our entire lives, and never express ourselves in the least. (Ha ha.) 
For several years on some occasions with fairly wild threads I've 
wanted to joke: for goodness sake, speak up for yourself! But I rarely 
chime in here. I'm writing this email now, just in case it's the last 
opportunity to say that.


Hello and bye for now, to everyone, back to work

Best wishes,

Curry K.

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

Me:


Currently an i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.


Should have said:


Currently an i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB hard drive.


PS. When "debugging" your antivirus, system settings, and other software 
to make your machine operate more smoothly, it's helpful to open the 
Task Manager and sort the Processes list by Disk. You'll discover the 
issues faster that way. (In previous years, I usually would have sorted 
by Memory or CPU.) Once you get those issues sorted out, your 
cross-platform experience will be very different.


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Always negative

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Yes, I am willing to organise a fundraiser to help finance ironing out 
LiveCode bugs.


I am, however, not sure how to go about that;

1. Set up a 'thing' on Indiegogo (because this is not a fund-raiser to 
have a set lower limit)?


2. Link it to a dedicated bank account belonging to LiveCode?

3. Perform some sort of triage to rank LC bugs?

4. Have a way to award badges for people who donate to squash particular 
bugs?


I believe that this is quite a useful model: 
https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/


If this would work I am more than willing to "put my time where my mouth 
is" and run this.


On 4.10.19 9:51, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
The fundraiser idea has been discussed before in regard to desired new 
feature requests but it could easily be done for bugs as well. It only 
needs someone to organize it. Are you willing?


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

On October 4, 2019 12:20:32 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Not entirely.


I can put for what I regard as a positive suggestion. Whether it is 
doable

and makes any business sense is a big question.


Stop all continuing development for a fixed period of time (6 months, 
say)

and attempt to sort out as many of the outstanding bugs as possible.


Have a fundraiser where individuals could sponsor specific bugs and
features they really wanted seeing to.


Even "Awful Richmond" would stump up some money for that.
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended 
specs for Windows Development computer"


(... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows 
hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)


here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows 
only" experience:


- Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen 
a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, 
and similar results.


- I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands 
dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more


- PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) 
laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip 
and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.


- The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any 
extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to 
overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use 
budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.


- Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various 
other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of 
your machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and 
chains.


- Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which 
felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence 
on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a 
system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. 
(There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty 
much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was proudly 
"Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just realize that 
many everyday users are equally efficient on the other operating systems.


I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for 
both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[JJS via use-livecode]

I followed this thread, and what came up to me is "Don't kill your darling"

I've seen this with Synthmaker/Flowstone happening too, people not 
happy, starting to rant or whatever, murdering the thing you love.


Be constructive!

I truly believe that a lot of programmers here, including myself, would 
have never become programmers if it wasn't for the easiness we can 
program with LiveCode.


This tool gave me insight in how other languages are working and a lot 
are similar, except for constructing code sentences with a bunch of ' " 
} god knows where to put them.


So try to learn Java/Kotlin/Swift/C++ and see how more difficult it is 
to get your head around it, then come back with flowers to LC.


I'm thankful of what i have made so far (although i still did not make 
any cent, but that's because I'm a lousy entrepreneur)


Sphere.

Op 3-10-2019 om 23:18 schreef Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode:

LC team,

I too so appreciate all the work the LC team has done over the years and 
continues to do. I’ve used probably a dozen different commercial coding systems 
over the decades and LC thru all it’s incarnations back to good old MetaCard 
with Scott was the one that provided the needed options, stability and power to 
get my multimedia exhibit and education projects done. It’s allowed me to be 
both designer and developer on projects that has created synergy that has made 
all the projects come out better. I know the limits of the system and when it’s 
worth trying to bleed some as it gets you something great and when it’s just 
not worth it and usually another design approach ends up working better. When 
I’ve had to work on projects that I couldn’t develop (complexity, timeline, 
feature needs) and be done in something like C it took way more resources and 
time and although I had really great programmers and I understood all the 
basics of what they were doing things could still get lost in translation and 
some things just turn into a quagmire.

There will always be bugs, feature not there yet, etc in any development system 
and we each have a very different set of needs and wants and the LC team can’t 
make us all perfectly happy at once, nor consistently. They are the ones on the 
front lines trying to make this a profitable business for them (they need to 
feed their families and they are not our serfs) and make decisions on what the 
priorities need to be. We can of course lobby for what we think our priorities 
are (and therefore LC’s), but that doesn’t make it so.

Many of us have based a lot of our livelihood on LC which is always a risk, but 
many times completely necessary. Yes I could do my projects more safely in C 
but I would be very poor as the time needed would suck out any profit at all. 
It’s always a tradeoff and one that needs constant assessment and not trying to 
push a development system to the limits as then you are in very dangerous 
territory — payoffs can be huge but crashes huge as well. I know I have done it 
in the past and very luckily survived but probably trimmed a few months off my 
lifespan to pay for it. I’ve run into bugs in the past with LC and have always 
found a work around for them on the current project and later most have been 
taken care of in LC, I realize it takes time and priorities are not always mine.

Yes features are always promised but reality always creeps in and resets things 
all the time. But LC has gone on longer and further and covering more platforms 
than most any system out there. With every new platform or major feature it 
adds to the permutations of issues and bugs so things can go at an exponential 
curve of development anymore and decisions need to be made to best keep all the 
balls in the air for the whole system.

Richmond, you need to listen to your mother some and if you don’t have 
something constructive to say try and be quiet some, or just pontificate in 
cheese instead of being insulting. I’m sorry but your flaming of LC staff (and 
the community) constantly is just plain annoying. It does no one any good, it’s 
not the way to make good change. Come to the table with constructive, 
reasonable and positive comments and not nasty ones. Sorry, you don’t represent 
this “community”, at least none I am part of. You complain the LC treats us 
with distain, well I don’t feel like LC does and your comments just fill me 
with distain for your comments. If you talk like that to others then expect to 
be treated with distain.

You probably think I’m an LC cult member, but you are wrong, I’m the last guy 
in the room cults would go for. I think too much for myself and try to treat 
others reasonably and keep expectations in line with reality, there are no 
magic bullets, most all things are based on some thought and work, not a guru 
spewing truth which you seem to think you do and we should follow suit. Sorry 
not joining your cult.

LC all the way back to MetaCard has been a big part of making me a richer 
livelihood in both money and pr

Re: Where LiveCode is Now

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

To banish Richmond, or to banish bugs? Which is the bigger problem?

Which is more directly responsible for the existence of this thread?

I would encourage looking at "net" bugs: bugs fixed, versus bugs 
introduced or regressed, during a time period. In development there are 
always bugs, and there are always fixes. Both the number of bugs and the 
number fixed are pretty impressive. Comparing the two (which takes a 
while, as we're still finding old bugs) might be more meaningful than 
promoting either on its own.


Not sure about "net" Richmonds. :)

I think reducing net bugs would be a plus all around, and would make a 
good impression on new and old customers. I care about LC, use it 
exclusively, and want the best for it.


Reducing net Richmonds could be pleasant superficially (ah, the peace, 
the lack of random vulgarities, witty insults, and topic stew) but might 
risk losing the occasional valuable insight. Not to mention an LC 
teacher and Unicode tester and all-around issue awareness raiser. And a 
longstanding part and practically parcel of this list community, whose 
missing presence might be felt.


LC can and will do as they wish, and some order and decency must be 
maintained on any list for that list to survive, but that's my 2 cents 
as an LC well-wisher and thinking only of what LC stands to lose or 
gain, not for myself.


I'm part Scottish too, you know? Our genetic curse may be that we bottle 
in all our opinions (the very few we have) and keep it inside our entire 
lives, and never express ourselves in the least. (Ha ha.) For several 
years on some occasions with fairly wild threads I've wanted to joke: 
for goodness sake, speak up for yourself! But I rarely chime in here. 
I'm writing this email now, just in case it's the last opportunity to 
say that.


Hello and bye for now, to everyone, back to work

Best wishes,

Curry K.

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