Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Good shout. Although, having the gui available helps when things go wrong like the PDF font rendering issues and being able to see the templates build as it goes for each page/card. But thanks for the heads up. Sean On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 at 05:40, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > LC Server had graphics capabilities added a few versions back. You can > lay out objects on cards and export images with it now. > > I'm not sure if those extend to the PDF external, but if you happen to > try it please let me know. > > If nothing else, being able to run faceless should save quite a bit of > RAM and CPU time as well. > > -- > Richard Gaskin > Fourth World Systems > > > > Sean Cole wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > > > My case scenario is maybe a little unique, I don't know. The server app > > needs to build from MySQL data and other resources (csv's and images) > > downloaded from emails received from a vendor a PDF report that it > 'prints' > > out and uploads to a web hosted site for downloading by the clients > desktop > > app (on windows). We receive about 100-200 emails at the moment that get > > processed by the server every morning as soon as they are received (all > at > > about 5am). Regardless of if it was running in the IDE or as a standalone > > in the server (which is private and never accessed directly or indirectly > > by any client) it runs at the same speed with the same functionality > > (except I don't have to wait for a huge stack to build each time I make a > > little change). This is why a GUI is required, so the PDF can be built. > > > > > Back to my OP. > >> > - What system build of Linux should I best install in Parallels > >> > virtual and Server Remote Host for deployment should I run with? > >> > Given the choices of potentially having LC IDE running as the ‘live’ > >> > software stack on the server itself (which is not the best way to run > >> > it, but potentially a method that is usable for our purposes > perhaps). > >> > >> What is the benefit of running the LC IDE on a server, as opposed to a > >> standalone? Do you need a GUI there at all? > >> > >> Either way, I believe Heriberto made a solid case yesterday for Ubuntu. > >> As the most popular distro, it has more docs, tutorials, and community > >> support, and more de facto testing. It's also the leading choice for > >> computer manufacturers shipping with Linux preinstalled, like Dell's XP > >> line and similar from HP, Acer, and others. > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
LC Server had graphics capabilities added a few versions back. You can lay out objects on cards and export images with it now. I'm not sure if those extend to the PDF external, but if you happen to try it please let me know. If nothing else, being able to run faceless should save quite a bit of RAM and CPU time as well. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Sean Cole wrote: Hi Richard, My case scenario is maybe a little unique, I don't know. The server app needs to build from MySQL data and other resources (csv's and images) downloaded from emails received from a vendor a PDF report that it 'prints' out and uploads to a web hosted site for downloading by the clients desktop app (on windows). We receive about 100-200 emails at the moment that get processed by the server every morning as soon as they are received (all at about 5am). Regardless of if it was running in the IDE or as a standalone in the server (which is private and never accessed directly or indirectly by any client) it runs at the same speed with the same functionality (except I don't have to wait for a huge stack to build each time I make a little change). This is why a GUI is required, so the PDF can be built. > Back to my OP. > - What system build of Linux should I best install in Parallels > virtual and Server Remote Host for deployment should I run with? > Given the choices of potentially having LC IDE running as the ‘live’ > software stack on the server itself (which is not the best way to run > it, but potentially a method that is usable for our purposes perhaps). What is the benefit of running the LC IDE on a server, as opposed to a standalone? Do you need a GUI there at all? Either way, I believe Heriberto made a solid case yesterday for Ubuntu. As the most popular distro, it has more docs, tutorials, and community support, and more de facto testing. It's also the leading choice for computer manufacturers shipping with Linux preinstalled, like Dell's XP line and similar from HP, Acer, and others. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Hi Richard, My case scenario is maybe a little unique, I don't know. The server app needs to build from MySQL data and other resources (csv's and images) downloaded from emails received from a vendor a PDF report that it 'prints' out and uploads to a web hosted site for downloading by the clients desktop app (on windows). We receive about 100-200 emails at the moment that get processed by the server every morning as soon as they are received (all at about 5am). Regardless of if it was running in the IDE or as a standalone in the server (which is private and never accessed directly or indirectly by any client) it runs at the same speed with the same functionality (except I don't have to wait for a huge stack to build each time I make a little change). This is why a GUI is required, so the PDF can be built. > Back to my OP. > > - What system build of Linux should I best install in Parallels > > virtual and Server Remote Host for deployment should I run with? > > Given the choices of potentially having LC IDE running as the ‘live’ > > software stack on the server itself (which is not the best way to run > > it, but potentially a method that is usable for our purposes perhaps). > > What is the benefit of running the LC IDE on a server, as opposed to a > standalone? Do you need a GUI there at all? > > Either way, I believe Heriberto made a solid case yesterday for Ubuntu. > As the most popular distro, it has more docs, tutorials, and community > support, and more de facto testing. It's also the leading choice for > computer manufacturers shipping with Linux preinstalled, like Dell's XP > line and similar from HP, Acer, and others. > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Hi all, Continuing my study, I've just tried installing LC9.6.2RC onto the latest Debian 10 build (clean install in Parallels from its add VM page). However, it comes up with an error when installing LC right after double-clicking the installer: "Failed to load library 'gdk' (tried libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0)". Debian 10 has Gtk 3.x installed. Is this the problem. Do I need to go back a build to Debian 9? Or can I still install on 10 somehow with a tweak? Sean Cole *Pi Digital * ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
On 12/16/20 1:39 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: Back to my OP. - What system build of Linux should I best install in Parallels virtual and Server Remote Host for deployment should I run with? Given the choices of potentially having LC IDE running as the ‘live’ software stack on the server itself (which is not the best way to run it, but potentially a method that is usable for our purposes perhaps). - Which systems of Linux can we safely develop and test in? - And then, which systems of Linux can we safely deploy and run in? And what are the known issues for both develop/test, and deploy/run? Sean- You're dangerously close to getting into religious wars here But for my money (ask any three linux devs and you'll get ten answers) I'd install the latest debian build, verify that everything's working, and leave it at that. I don't expect you'd get any surprises that way, but if you do then I'd back down to the latest ubuntu build. That said, I'm running the latest linux mint cinnamon on a ubuntu base, and I tend to push the engine to its limits. I can always find ways to get into trouble, but I have to work at it. Otherwise rock solid. ...and the usual caveats apply, of course. No browser or media support. Hope this helps. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Pi Digital wrote: > Ah, i see your POV now. You distinguish a difference between ‘runs on’ > and ‘deploys on’. Where as I infer that there is no difference and > that ‘supports’ is as ‘system requirements’ or ‘supported systems’. To me "runs on" and "deploys on" can only be the same thing when discussing a system like LiveCode, where the IDE is made from the same engine as a standalone. According to at least one core team member, the distinction with "supported" is that they viewed it as "things the company is publicly committing to provide technical support resources for", which of course is a subset of "runs on". Indeed, "supported" in that sense isn't even a technical consideration as much as a business one, arguably cause for replacing the word "supported" with something else that has no implications for business expense obligations. > The document is aimed at users of Livecode who, of course are > developers but, are also making use of the IDE. So, imho I would see > a need to have perhaps a separate part for each then. A runs on and > deploys to section. I'm not opposed to the idea at all, but what circumstances would create a difference between the two for any GUI desktop platform, given that the LC IDE stacks are driven by the same engine that runs our stacks? > More than just runs on in fact. That infers that it can chug along on > with fits and starts. But a ‘system recommendation for development’. > And THEN a section for ‘systems supported for deployment’ or > ‘standalone system requirements’ to keep the same vernacular as the > IDE itself. With known issues covering both the IDE and Deployment as > two separate sections also. Ah - that distinction makes solid sense to me, and we often see two sets of listings for sys reqs, "Minimum" and "Recommended". For the IDE, this can be known, and would be helpful if provided. For our applications it cannot be known by any author of a Release Notes, because they can't know what we're going to be doing with the engine. I can make super-lean apps that fly and super-bloated apps that crawl, but I can't expect their company to provide guidance for me on either; the range of resource usage combinations is simply too vast, and being my work and not theirs they can't know what I'm doing. But for the IDE, yes with two thumbs up to having separate "Minimum" and "Recommended" resource requirements listings. Do I understand your request on that one? > And then the requirement for Linux to have these separate libraries > installed on BOTH the IDE machine AND the ‘end users’ Linux machine > running the standalone should be made all the more clearer. Perhaps > the ‘installation’ section should be separated entirely into the three > main platforms with Linux being given a little more care in referring > to each Linux distro in turn where needed. Whether the dependencies are better handled if moved from "Requirements" to "Installation" I'll leave to them. FWIW I've never encountered a desktop Linux system that could run a browser but not run LiveCode, so for me their guidance on that has proven consistently true. Where more specific details are needed, their listing of required packages appears to be complete. > Back to my OP. > - What system build of Linux should I best install in Parallels > virtual and Server Remote Host for deployment should I run with? > Given the choices of potentially having LC IDE running as the ‘live’ > software stack on the server itself (which is not the best way to run > it, but potentially a method that is usable for our purposes perhaps). What is the benefit of running the LC IDE on a server, as opposed to a standalone? Do you need a GUI there at all? Either way, I believe Heriberto made a solid case yesterday for Ubuntu. As the most popular distro, it has more docs, tutorials, and community support, and more de facto testing. It's also the leading choice for computer manufacturers shipping with Linux preinstalled, like Dell's XP line and similar from HP, Acer, and others. Whether Ubuntu's fixed release schedule is a feature or a bug is a matter of taste, but personally I like knowing exactly how long I have with an OS version before I commit to rolling it out, and most admins I know do too. - Which systems of Linux can we safely develop and test in? For GUI installations, my experience supports the guidance LC Ltd provides in the Release Notes: if it can run a browser, it can run LC. I've personally run LC on Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Pop!_OS, Mint, Fedora, Debian, and a few others. > - And then, which systems of Linux can we safely deploy and run in? > And what are the known issues for both develop/test, and deploy/run? In my experience all of the above plus Raspian, if you avoid a couple of known trouble spots with that older LC on Linux/ARM (menus crash, but other command UI elements like buttons work great so sometimes not an issue depending on the a
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Ah, i see your POV now. You distinguish a difference between ‘runs on’ and ‘deploys on’. Where as I infer that there is no difference and that ‘supports’ is as ‘system requirements’ or ‘supported systems’. The document is aimed at users of Livecode who, of course are developers but, are also making use of the IDE. So, imho I would see a need to have perhaps a separate part for each then. A runs on and deploys to section. More than just runs on in fact. That infers that it can chug along on with fits and starts. But a ‘system recommendation for development’. And THEN a section for ‘systems supported for deployment’ or ‘standalone system requirements’ to keep the same vernacular as the IDE itself. With known issues covering both the IDE and Deployment as two separate sections also. But ideally I would assume that these would be the same for both environments - with the exception of course of Android, iOS, iPadOS (there is a distinction now), iWatchOS (knowing full well this is not supported at all), HTML5, etc. And then the requirement for Linux to have these separate libraries installed on BOTH the IDE machine AND the ‘end users’ Linux machine running the standalone should be made all the more clearer. Perhaps the ‘installation’ section should be separated entirely into the three main platforms with Linux being given a little more care in referring to each Linux distro in turn where needed. To me, because CentOS is only referred to in the release notes and only under the support section is where the inference occurred and why it seemed reasonable to assume that this referred both to IDE and deployment supports. And this difference in observation was neither made clear in my posts nor your responses which is where the misunderstandings occurred. So Back to my OP. - What system build of Linux should I best install in Parallels virtual and Server Remote Host for deployment should I run with? Given the choices of potentially having LC IDE running as the ‘live’ software stack on the server itself (which is not the best way to run it, but potentially a method that is usable for our purposes perhaps). - Which systems of Linux can we safely develop and test in? - And then, which systems of Linux can we safely deploy and run in? And what are the known issues for both develop/test, and deploy/run? Sean > On 16 Dec 2020, at 06:23, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode > wrote: > > So... > > Since what we want to know is on which Linux distros LiveCode is known to run > well on, would replacing "support" with "runs on" suffice? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Richmond wrote: >On 16.12.20 2:14, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: >> Richmond wrote: >> > Well . . . they could install a later version of Ubuntu (takes >> > about 30-120 minutes) and build and test on that version. >> > >> > Surely not that arduous. >>... >> How familiar are you with the LC build system in Edinburgh? > > I am not familiar at all. > > But, having built an LC version for Linux it can then be tested on > a recent Linux distro. It once seemed that simple to me too. Mark Weider handled that very well this afternoon: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2020-December/262712.html -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Sean - This thread began with a concern over how Linux compatibility is described in the Release Notes. I proposed a solution, but it didn't resonate. Perhaps a different approach may work: The audience for the Release Notes is developers, and what developers need to know is where LiveCode the application can be deployed. Any consideration about specific distros the company provides technical support for is arguably inappropriate in Release Notes altogether. First, technical support obligations are better described in the license offer. And second,they don't apply at all with Community Edition where the company has no technical support obligations. So... Since what we want to know is on which Linux distros LiveCode is known to run well on, would replacing "support" with "runs on" suffice? Of course we may touch up a few other sentence so it flows nicely, but do I understand correctly that the concern is to know where LC runs? If this suggestion doesn't cover what you're looking for, what would you prefer to see there? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
I am not familiar at all. But, having built an LC version for Linux it can then be tested on a recent Linux distro. On 16.12.20 2:14, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: Richmond wrote: > Well . . . they could install a later version of Ubuntu (takes about > 30-120 minutes) and build and test on that version. > > Surely not that arduous. Exactly how sure are you? What they need to do is more than what customers need to do. How familiar are you with the LC build system in Edinburgh? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
It’s this kind of rhetoric that drive me to madness and then getting a used of being abusive as I defend what I’ve said. Richard, there is no need as you have clearly misinterpreted practically everything I said in an effort to get some kind of oneupmanship. >> On 16 Dec 2020, at 01:00, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >> Pi Digital wrote: >> >> But that does not seem to correlate to the way it is for MacOS or Win. >> Are you saying they compile from all of those versions of MacOS and >> Win they reference to supporting. > > Mac and Windows are each made by a single organization, with specs defining > compatibility. > > "Linux" isn't an OS per se, it's a family of OSes, where the one thing they > all have in common is some form of the Linux kernel. Show Quoted Content >> On 16 Dec 2020, at 01:00, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >> Pi Digital wrote: >> >> But that does not seem to correlate to the way it is for MacOS or Win. >> Are you saying they compile from all of those versions of MacOS and >> Win they reference to supporting. > > Mac and Windows are each made by a single organization, with specs defining > compatibility. > > "Linux" isn't an OS per se, it's a family of OSes, where the one thing they > all have in common is some form of the Linux kernel. Debian is Debian. Ubuntu is Ubuntu. Red hat is red hat. Blah blah. This is not my issue. Get the net. >> When reading about LiveCode support, to me it doesn’t matter if it >> is LC Ltd or the LC app. The two are pretty much interchangeable. > > One is a business, the other is a technology stack. The difference may not > matter to you, but it matters to them, and understandably so... > Point entirely missed! We are wholly talking about its mention in the release notes and that the ambiguation is not made evident and can ONLY be understood in the context of a release note under the heading of OS support that it refers to the support by the software of a given OS. Sheesh, I’m surprised I have to spell this out to you. Why do you pick on me as if, in this instance, I am trying to criticise LC (Ltd) in any way. > >> ...the release notes are written SPECIFICALLY for LC the product, not >> in reference to the company. > > Clearly I agree that the wording in the Release Notes can too easily give > that impression, which is why I submitted the enhancement request to clarify > it: > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=23035 > > >> I cannot see where this inference is coming from. > > It is not an inference. I'm familiar with qualifiers like "might be", and use > them liberally. I did not use a qualifier here, because in this case I'm > drawing from direct conversation with a key member of the core team. > > The explanation I conveyed to you was given to me a while back by Dr Peter > Brett in one of my ongoing Community Liaison meetings I have with the company. Show Quoted Content > >> ...the release notes are written SPECIFICALLY for LC the product, not >> in reference to the company. > > Clearly I agree that the wording in the Release Notes can too easily give > that impression, which is why I submitted the enhancement request to clarify > it: > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=23035 > > >> I cannot see where this inference is coming from. > > It is not an inference. I'm familiar with qualifiers like "might be", and use > them liberally. I did not use a qualifier here, because in this case I'm > drawing from direct conversation with a key member of the core team. > > The explanation I conveyed to you was given to me a while back by Dr Peter > Brett in one of my ongoing Community Liaison meetings I have with the company. PB hasn’t worked there in a while so I’m guessing that conversation has disappeared into obscurity. > > This is why I wrote: "...cited Mark Weider. He and I have each had > conversations with the core team on this, and what he wrote is correct." > > I have no reason to make this up. When I take time to write to you it's > because I'm doing my best to provide you with the best information I have Misunderstood as it is. > >> Basically put, if they can’t build it in, for example, Ubuntu 20, then >> it is not supported fully because of some minor/major issue. > > Have you considered the possibility that not everything in the build system > is made in LiveCode? I know all this so yes it’s not only considered but fully appreciated. This is not a complaint. It’s a situation I find myself facing with legitimate questions around what I should do best case for the future. > > Funny thing is, those of us who use LiveCode on Linux daily are the least > bothered by these support commitment things. > > Let our experience be of help where it can: LiveCode runs well on Ubuntu > 18.04 and Ubuntu 20.04, with the exceptions Panos noted earlier. And PDF rendering as I noted earlier, which is my main concern along with security of up to da
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Pi Digital wrote: > But that does not seem to correlate to the way it is for MacOS or Win. > Are you saying they compile from all of those versions of MacOS and > Win they reference to supporting. Mac and Windows are each made by a single organization, with specs defining compatibility. "Linux" isn't an OS per se, it's a family of OSes, where the one thing they all have in common is some form of the Linux kernel. Lots of combinations are possible, from distros made for tiny IoT devices to clusters of supercomputers, and just about everything in between. Thinking about the wide open world of Linux in the same terms one things about monolithic OSes made by single companies for narrowly-defined hardware can lead to a wide range of issues. Here, the core issue is expectations management. Personally, I find this guidance very useful, and is more succinct than I've seen from other Linux software vendors: The requirements for GUI functionality are also required by Firefox and Chrome, so if your Linux distribution runs one of those, it will run LiveCode. > When reading about LiveCode support, to me it doesn’t matter if it > is LC Ltd or the LC app. The two are pretty much interchangeable. One is a business, the other is a technology stack. The difference may not matter to you, but it matters to them, and understandably so: LiveCode-the-software runs on such a wide range of Linux systems it would be impractical for the folks at LiveCode-the-company to commit support resources for them all. So while a good many of us enjoy running LiveCode-the-software on anything we get our hands on, we respect that LiveCode-the-company isn't in a position to provide guidance if our choices don't line up with the systems they've chosen to support. > ...the release notes are written SPECIFICALLY for LC the product, not > in reference to the company. Clearly I agree that the wording in the Release Notes can too easily give that impression, which is why I submitted the enhancement request to clarify it: https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=23035 > I cannot see where this inference is coming from. It is not an inference. I'm familiar with qualifiers like "might be", and use them liberally. I did not use a qualifier here, because in this case I'm drawing from direct conversation with a key member of the core team. The explanation I conveyed to you was given to me a while back by Dr Peter Brett in one of my ongoing Community Liaison meetings I have with the company. This is why I wrote: "...cited Mark Weider. He and I have each had conversations with the core team on this, and what he wrote is correct." I have no reason to make this up. When I take time to write to you it's because I'm doing my best to provide you with the best information I have. > Basically put, if they can’t build it in, for example, Ubuntu 20, then > it is not supported fully because of some minor/major issue. Have you considered the possibility that not everything in the build system is made in LiveCode? It's quite a beast they have there, compiling on each platform, shuffling the packages around to build installers, zips, and DMGs, each containing engines for multiple platforms. A great many components in the long tool chain used to build a LiveCode installer are not written in LiveCode. Each has their own dependencies, and changing one part sometimes means changing others in an intricate ripple effect. Funny thing is, those of us who use LiveCode on Linux daily are the least bothered by these support commitment things. Let our experience be of help where it can: LiveCode runs well on Ubuntu 18.04 and Ubuntu 20.04, with the exceptions Panos noted earlier. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Richmond wrote: > Well . . . they could install a later version of Ubuntu (takes about > 30-120 minutes) and build and test on that version. > > Surely not that arduous. Exactly how sure are you? What they need to do is more than what customers need to do. How familiar are you with the LC build system in Edinburgh? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Well . . . they could install a later version of Ubuntu (takes about 30-120 minutes) and build and test on that version. Surely not that arduous. Best, Richmond. On 15.12.20 19:38, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote: On 12/15/20 3:48 AM, Richmond via use-livecode wrote: 2. Stir up trouble. Personally I think that LiveCode central are being a bit @#$%^&* claiming that LiveCode is cross-platform and not saying they support more recent versions than Ubuntu 16.04 and so on. And stirring up trouble means that I think they deserve a collective kick in the source-code for that. I may be in the minority on my opinion on this, and judging from the feedback I expect from this post that may be an understatement, but... I think the team is correct in this. Support means more than "we think this works". Since they currently build and test each released version on an older linux distro, they can't really claim to "support" later versions, even though we can empirically verify that there is essentially no difference when running LC on other/later linuxes. Claiming support would mean dedicating resources to changing the build process, verifying that the resulting build performed to spec on whatever linux version, and also on an ongoing basis dedicating support team resources to whatever issues may arise on the newly officially supported platforms. And at present there's very little ROI for making these changes. Even the modifications that a few of us do contribute require redirecting company resources to verify (or not) before merging into the corpus of releasable code, and with the current worldwide situation I doubt there's a lot of free time to squeeze into redirection from actual revenue-producing streams. Since Ubuntu's EOL date is coming up in the next few months, I expect that the build platform may change soon. But since I can compile from source here on linux mint 20 (Ubuntu based) (as long as I modify the gyp file as in my PR) I don't expect major hiccups nor any major expense in team resources from this migration. 3. As far as I can see (probably not very far), there is no difference in functionality between Xubuntu 16.04 and 20.10; See above, but yes, I agree. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Thanks Panos. My main concern of late has been the PDF output font rendering in CentOS and I am hoping that it will be better in Ubuntu or another distro. But I’m guessing I’m going to have to do a whole heap of testing to find out. Sean Cole Pi Digital > On 15 Dec 2020, at 09:24, merakosp via use-livecode > wrote: > > Hello Sean, > > Off the top of my head, the main Linux issues that are currently unresolved > are: > > 1. The player object is broken on all Linux distros. You might be able to > workaround this by using shell commands with mplayer. > > 2. The browser widget is broken in most Linux distros. It might work for > just displaying a webpage, but not for typing into input fields of the > webpage. I am not sure if there is a workaround for this. > > 3. Also, you might experience window layering problems with some Linux > window manager (e.g. Cinnamon). > > Hope this helps, > Panos > -- > >> On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 10:42, Pi Digital via use-livecode < >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >> >>> On 15 Dec 2020, at 02:52, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode < >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>> As Mark Weider noted, the "official" support is merely a reflection of >> their build system, and it relies on a version of Ubuntu still actively >> getting security updates. >> >> That doesn’t seem to be stated or inferred in the release notes. It’s >> under the heading ‘Platform Support’ which infers, like ‘System >> Requirements’ might, “This is what it will run on”. Indeed, under the >> heading it states: >> The engine supports a variety of operating systems and versions. This >> section describes the platforms that we ensure the engine runs on without >> issue (although in some cases with reduced functionality). >> >> >> Then under Linux it states: >> LiveCode supports the following Linux distributions, on 32-bit or >> 64-bit Intel/AMD or compatible processors: Ubuntu 14.04 and 16.04 Fedora 23 & 24 Debian 7 (Wheezy) and 8 (Jessie) [server] CentOS 7 [server] >> >> >> Then lists the Core and ‘optional’ GUI feature requirements. None of this >> states or infers that >=Ubuntu 18, >=Fedora 25, >=Debian 9 or >=CentOS 8. >> >> So we are left assuming that these unlisted platforms/versions, much like >> macOS 10.16, is “Unsupported”! Hence my initial question/request for >> community knowledge/experience. I’m not seeking to stir up trouble (for a >> change). I’m seeking understanding and wisdom. If LC is Not Supported on >> later builds, what aspects do not function in your (plural, ie, everyones) >> experiences. >> >> Because LC write “This section describes the platforms that we ensure the >> engine runs on without issue”, it would just be useful to know what issues >> later builds experienced. >> >> Thanks for the input though. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
But that does not seem to correlate to the way it is for MacOS or Win. Are you saying they compile from all of those versions of MacOS and Win they reference to supporting. This is a very odd use of semantics. When reading about LiveCode support, to me it doesn’t matter if it is LC Ltd or the LC app. The two are pretty much interchangeable. Both the software and the company Support xyz platform version. It’s not like LC make many/any other products. Especially as the release notes are written SPECIFICALLY for LC the product, not in reference to the company. I cannot see where this inference is coming from. Basically put, if they can’t build it in, for example, Ubuntu 20, then it is not supported fully because of some minor/major issue. So, going back to my question of: what issues have led to support not being passed for them that has led to release notes purposefully omitting mention of these later versions of Linux disro’s? Sean Cole Pi Digital ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
On 12/15/20 3:48 AM, Richmond via use-livecode wrote: 2. Stir up trouble. Personally I think that LiveCode central are being a bit @#$%^&* claiming that LiveCode is cross-platform and not saying they support more recent versions than Ubuntu 16.04 and so on. And stirring up trouble means that I think they deserve a collective kick in the source-code for that. I may be in the minority on my opinion on this, and judging from the feedback I expect from this post that may be an understatement, but... I think the team is correct in this. Support means more than "we think this works". Since they currently build and test each released version on an older linux distro, they can't really claim to "support" later versions, even though we can empirically verify that there is essentially no difference when running LC on other/later linuxes. Claiming support would mean dedicating resources to changing the build process, verifying that the resulting build performed to spec on whatever linux version, and also on an ongoing basis dedicating support team resources to whatever issues may arise on the newly officially supported platforms. And at present there's very little ROI for making these changes. Even the modifications that a few of us do contribute require redirecting company resources to verify (or not) before merging into the corpus of releasable code, and with the current worldwide situation I doubt there's a lot of free time to squeeze into redirection from actual revenue-producing streams. Since Ubuntu's EOL date is coming up in the next few months, I expect that the build platform may change soon. But since I can compile from source here on linux mint 20 (Ubuntu based) (as long as I modify the gyp file as in my PR) I don't expect major hiccups nor any major expense in team resources from this migration. 3. As far as I can see (probably not very far), there is no difference in functionality between Xubuntu 16.04 and 20.10; See above, but yes, I agree. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Hi Sean & Richmond, I think it is best to only support LTS versions and just one desktop (Gnome). This will standardize the platform a bit (Hey, I don't want to start a flame, I'm just saying that Gnome and Ubuntu / Debian are the most used). The problem with LINUX is the sheer number of different desktops and configurations out there. A small company like Livecode cannot be pretended to support all of these variations. I believe that if Debian LTS is supported, Ubuntu will automatically be supported. Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian, so theoretically they should be compatible. With the death of CENTOS there will be a massive migration of people to other distros (like us) and I think Debian and Ubuntu will be the winners. However, it is true that many certified hardware and many government platforms only support RedHat / CENTOS. Especially those in which you have to comply with certifications and bureaucratic regulations. So escaping from IBM is not an option for a big-medium size business. I only code in Livecode with Linux. Honestly, one of the reasons that led me to choose Livecode over other solutions was its Linux support. Best, Hery On 12/14/20 8:19 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: Hi Richmond, You're probably right. However, with security issues constantly needing keeping up to date with, it's probably worth working out if it is worth supporting Linux at all, then. If they, LC, feel it 'is' worth supporting Linux, it is surely, then, essential to keep up with these latest versions to help their customers avoid security issues. That, I guess, is an issue in of itself. It is remarkable LC is as well supporting of newish OS's as it is, particularly MacOS and Win10, keeping security by encryption and TLS, etc, up to date. Linux is a wayward child, however. Difficult to keep on top off. Even though their update cycles are not as frequent as Win/Mac. Thanks Sean Cole *Pi Digital * On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 at 08:14, Richmond via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: "I wonder why LC don’t state support for later Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian builds?" I suspect that LiveCode believes that the uptake of the Linux version is insufficient to justify the effort of testing LC on those platforms. Richmond. On 14.12.20 2:20, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: Thanks all. These insights are useful. Hery’s explanation of their choice to move to Debian provides a good argument. I had just tried Ubuntu 20.04 in a parallels virtual machine and my server app worked ok. I will try a Debian build too. I wonder why LC don’t state support for later Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian builds? Sean Cole Pi Digital On 13 Dec 2020, at 19:27, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: Hi Sean, I've been using LiveCode on Ubuntu 16.04 and 18.04 for years (Servers and Desktops) and it worked fine. A years ago we migrated everything to CentOS / RedHat and Fedora (development machines and servers). However, we are going to migrate everything to Debian. Debian is very stable and offers the same user experience on Laptops, Workstations and Servers. Ubuntu is a good system, but after the drift from CentOS with IBM I don't want to put the heart of our systems in the hands of any big company. What would happen if tomorrow Ubuntu is acquired by Microsoft and they decide to charge money for it? That's not the case with Debian: Debian is completely independent and rock solid. I live between Madrid and New York and in both cities there are good professional companies who offer commercial technical support for Debian, so you don't need any big and greedy corps getting their hands on your IT systems. Best, Hery On 12/13/20 12:40 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: Hi all, I just heard the news that RedHat is going to be dropping support for CentOS. With my recent issues with PDF Printing in CentOS, I was already looking to perhaps try out CentOS8 or another Dist. but now we have this news I'm thinking of going to Ubuntu. The release notes for LC says it supports Ubuntu 16.04, which is cool. But I notice my server host says they have 16.04, 18.04, 20.04 and 20.10. Is anyone out there running LC on one of these later builds of Ubuntu? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Or maybe I should be looking at Fedora. All the very best Sean Cole *Pi Digital * ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Sean Cole wrote: > On 15 Dec 2020, at 02:52, Richard Gaskin wrote: > >> As Mark Weider noted, the "official" support is merely a reflection >> of their build system, and it relies on a version of Ubuntu still >> actively getting security updates. > > That doesn’t seem to be stated or inferred in the release notes. Correct, which is why I cited Mark Weider. He and I have each had conversations with the core team on this, and what he wrote is correct. It seems this confusion arises from the ambiguity introduced by having "LiveCode" mean multiple different things: it's the product, it's the language the product runs on, and it's the company. I just submitted a docs request on this, suggesting that in the Release Notes they change: "LiveCode supports the following Linux distributions..." ...to: "LiveCode Ltd supports the following Linux distributions..." ...so it becomes clearer that the limitation is only with regard to the company's commitment to provide technical support, and not a contradiction of the clarification they provide later in the Notes about the full scope of expected compatibility: https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=23035 -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
I would pick a small fight here. On 15.12.20 11:24, merakosp via use-livecode wrote: Hello Sean, Off the top of my head, the main Linux issues that are currently unresolved are: 1. The player object is broken on all Linux distros. You might be able to workaround this by using shell commands with mplayer. I have a feeling that the player object is not broken as it NEVER worked properly on Linux in the first place. 2. The browser widget is broken in most Linux distros. It might work for just displaying a webpage, but not for typing into input fields of the webpage. I am not sure if there is a workaround for this. 3. Also, you might experience window layering problems with some Linux window manager (e.g. Cinnamon). Hope this helps, Panos -- On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 10:42, Pi Digital via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: On 15 Dec 2020, at 02:52, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: As Mark Weider noted, the "official" support is merely a reflection of their build system, and it relies on a version of Ubuntu still actively getting security updates. That doesn’t seem to be stated or inferred in the release notes. It’s under the heading ‘Platform Support’ which infers, like ‘System Requirements’ might, “This is what it will run on”. Indeed, under the heading it states: The engine supports a variety of operating systems and versions. This section describes the platforms that we ensure the engine runs on without issue (although in some cases with reduced functionality). Then under Linux it states: LiveCode supports the following Linux distributions, on 32-bit or 64-bit Intel/AMD or compatible processors: Ubuntu 14.04 and 16.04 Fedora 23 & 24 Debian 7 (Wheezy) and 8 (Jessie) [server] CentOS 7 [server] Then lists the Core and ‘optional’ GUI feature requirements. None of this states or infers that >=Ubuntu 18, >=Fedora 25, >=Debian 9 or >=CentOS 8. So we are left assuming that these unlisted platforms/versions, much like macOS 10.16, is “Unsupported”! Hence my initial question/request for community knowledge/experience. I’m not seeking to stir up trouble (for a change). I’m seeking understanding and wisdom. If LC is Not Supported on later builds, what aspects do not function in your (plural, ie, everyones) experiences. Because LC write “This section describes the platforms that we ensure the engine runs on without issue”, it would just be useful to know what issues later builds experienced. Thanks for the input though. Sean ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
1. I have never, ever experienced any problems at all with any versions of LiveCode on any versions of Xubuntu that are more 'modern' than 16.04. 2. Stir up trouble. Personally I think that LiveCode central are being a bit @#$%^&* claiming that LiveCode is cross-platform and not saying they support more recent versions than Ubuntu 16.04 and so on. And stirring up trouble means that I think they deserve a collective kick in the source-code for that. 3. As far as I can see (probably not very far), there is no difference in functionality between Xubuntu 16.04 and 20.10; admittedly though I stopped using 16.04 about April 2017, so I may have forgotten something. Richmond. On 15.12.20 10:40, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: Hence my initial question/request for community knowledge/experience. I’m not seeking to stir up trouble (for a change). I’m seeking understanding and wisdom. If LC is Not Supported on later builds, what aspects do not function in your (plural, ie, everyones) experiences. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Hello Sean, Off the top of my head, the main Linux issues that are currently unresolved are: 1. The player object is broken on all Linux distros. You might be able to workaround this by using shell commands with mplayer. 2. The browser widget is broken in most Linux distros. It might work for just displaying a webpage, but not for typing into input fields of the webpage. I am not sure if there is a workaround for this. 3. Also, you might experience window layering problems with some Linux window manager (e.g. Cinnamon). Hope this helps, Panos -- On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 10:42, Pi Digital via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > On 15 Dec 2020, at 02:52, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode < > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > As Mark Weider noted, the "official" support is merely a reflection of > their build system, and it relies on a version of Ubuntu still actively > getting security updates. > > That doesn’t seem to be stated or inferred in the release notes. It’s > under the heading ‘Platform Support’ which infers, like ‘System > Requirements’ might, “This is what it will run on”. Indeed, under the > heading it states: > > >> The engine supports a variety of operating systems and versions. This > section describes the platforms that we ensure the engine runs on without > issue (although in some cases with reduced functionality). > > > Then under Linux it states: > > >> LiveCode supports the following Linux distributions, on 32-bit or > 64-bit Intel/AMD or compatible processors: > >> Ubuntu 14.04 and 16.04 > >> Fedora 23 & 24 > >> Debian 7 (Wheezy) and 8 (Jessie) [server] CentOS 7 [server] > > > Then lists the Core and ‘optional’ GUI feature requirements. None of this > states or infers that >=Ubuntu 18, >=Fedora 25, >=Debian 9 or >=CentOS 8. > > So we are left assuming that these unlisted platforms/versions, much like > macOS 10.16, is “Unsupported”! Hence my initial question/request for > community knowledge/experience. I’m not seeking to stir up trouble (for a > change). I’m seeking understanding and wisdom. If LC is Not Supported on > later builds, what aspects do not function in your (plural, ie, everyones) > experiences. > > Because LC write “This section describes the platforms that we ensure the > engine runs on without issue”, it would just be useful to know what issues > later builds experienced. > > Thanks for the input though. > > Sean > > > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
> On 15 Dec 2020, at 02:52, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode > wrote: > > As Mark Weider noted, the "official" support is merely a reflection of their > build system, and it relies on a version of Ubuntu still actively getting > security updates. That doesn’t seem to be stated or inferred in the release notes. It’s under the heading ‘Platform Support’ which infers, like ‘System Requirements’ might, “This is what it will run on”. Indeed, under the heading it states: >> The engine supports a variety of operating systems and versions. This >> section describes the platforms that we ensure the engine runs on without >> issue (although in some cases with reduced functionality). Then under Linux it states: >> LiveCode supports the following Linux distributions, on 32-bit or 64-bit >> Intel/AMD or compatible processors: >> Ubuntu 14.04 and 16.04 >> Fedora 23 & 24 >> Debian 7 (Wheezy) and 8 (Jessie) [server] CentOS 7 [server] Then lists the Core and ‘optional’ GUI feature requirements. None of this states or infers that >=Ubuntu 18, >=Fedora 25, >=Debian 9 or >=CentOS 8. So we are left assuming that these unlisted platforms/versions, much like macOS 10.16, is “Unsupported”! Hence my initial question/request for community knowledge/experience. I’m not seeking to stir up trouble (for a change). I’m seeking understanding and wisdom. If LC is Not Supported on later builds, what aspects do not function in your (plural, ie, everyones) experiences. Because LC write “This section describes the platforms that we ensure the engine runs on without issue”, it would just be useful to know what issues later builds experienced. Thanks for the input though. Sean ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Sean Cole wrote: > You're probably right. However, with security issues constantly > needing keeping up to date with, it's probably worth working out > if it is worth supporting Linux at all, then. If they, LC, feel > it 'is' worth supporting Linux, it is surely, then, essential > to keep up with these latest versions to help their customers > avoid security issues. What security issues are you concerned about? As Mark Weider noted, the "official" support is merely a reflection of their build system, and it relies on a version of Ubuntu still actively getting security updates. LC's Release Notes remind us that it runs on a wide range of Linux distros and versions. The compatibility requirements are fairly modest - from the Release Notes: The requirements for GUI functionality are also required by Firefox and Chrome, so if your Linux distribution runs one of those, it will run LiveCode. FWIW I use LC daily with Ubuntu 18.04 and 20.04, which will continue to receive updates until April 2023 and April 2025, respectively. On servers I have one client running LC on SUSE Enterprise, and the rest of my installs are with Ubuntu Server 18.04 and 20.04. Now if only we could get the Linux/ARM update I'd be super happy, but even the last LC we got for Raspberry Pi still runs okay (with some limitations) on the latest Raspian, and it flies under Ubuntu Core. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Hi Richmond, You're probably right. However, with security issues constantly needing keeping up to date with, it's probably worth working out if it is worth supporting Linux at all, then. If they, LC, feel it 'is' worth supporting Linux, it is surely, then, essential to keep up with these latest versions to help their customers avoid security issues. That, I guess, is an issue in of itself. It is remarkable LC is as well supporting of newish OS's as it is, particularly MacOS and Win10, keeping security by encryption and TLS, etc, up to date. Linux is a wayward child, however. Difficult to keep on top off. Even though their update cycles are not as frequent as Win/Mac. Thanks Sean Cole *Pi Digital * On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 at 08:14, Richmond via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > "I wonder why LC don’t state support for later Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian > builds?" > > I suspect that LiveCode believes that the uptake of the Linux version is > insufficient to justify the effort of testing LC on those platforms. > > Richmond. > > On 14.12.20 2:20, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks all. These insights are useful. Hery’s explanation of their > choice to move to Debian provides a good argument. I had just tried Ubuntu > 20.04 in a parallels virtual machine and my server app worked ok. I will > try a Debian build too. I wonder why LC don’t state support for later > Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian builds? > > > > Sean Cole > > Pi Digital > > > >> On 13 Dec 2020, at 19:27, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Sean, > >> > >> I've been using LiveCode on Ubuntu 16.04 and 18.04 for years (Servers > and Desktops) and it worked fine. A years ago we migrated everything to > CentOS / RedHat and Fedora (development machines and servers). However, we > are going to migrate everything to Debian. > >> Debian is very stable and offers the same user experience on Laptops, > Workstations and Servers. > >> > >> Ubuntu is a good system, but after the drift from CentOS with IBM I > don't want to put the heart of our systems in the hands of any big company. > >> What would happen if tomorrow Ubuntu is acquired by Microsoft and they > decide to charge money for it? That's not the case with Debian: Debian is > completely independent and rock solid. > >> > >> I live between Madrid and New York and in both cities there are good > professional companies who offer commercial technical support for Debian, > so you don't need any big and greedy corps getting their hands on your IT > systems. > >> > >> Best, > >> Hery > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 12/13/20 12:40 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> I just heard the news that RedHat is going to be dropping support for > >>> CentOS. With my recent issues with PDF Printing in CentOS, I was > already > >>> looking to perhaps try out CentOS8 or another Dist. but now we have > this > >>> news I'm thinking of going to Ubuntu. > >>> > >>> The release notes for LC says it supports Ubuntu 16.04, which is cool. > But > >>> I notice my server host says they have 16.04, 18.04, 20.04 and 20.10. > Is > >>> anyone out there running LC on one of these later builds of Ubuntu? I'd > >>> like to hear your thoughts. Or maybe I should be looking at Fedora. > >>> > >>> All the very best > >>> > >>> Sean Cole > >>> *Pi Digital * > >>> ___ > >>> use-livecode mailing list > >>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > >> ___ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > ___ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
On 12/14/20 3:17 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: Hi Mark, Are you able to say what particular bits were broken so I know what to be on the lookout for and assess if these might affect our project? Sure. Here's the PR https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7127 But note that you only need to do this if you're compiling the engine from source. No problems *running* LC on recent distros. ...beyond the usual LC-on-linux problems anyway. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Hi Mark, Are you able to say what particular bits were broken so I know what to be on the lookout for and assess if these might affect our project? Thanks Sean Cole *Pi Digital * On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 at 01:15, Mark Wieder via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > On 12/13/20 4:20 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks all. These insights are useful. Hery’s explanation of their > choice to move to Debian provides a good argument. I had just tried Ubuntu > 20.04 in a parallels virtual machine and my server app worked ok. I will > try a Debian build too. I wonder why LC don’t state support for later > Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian builds? > > Because the team builds the engine on an Ubuntu 16 machine and so > doesn't want to say they support anything later. > > The build process is broken on later versions. I submitted a PR to fix > this (it works here) but apparently it doesn't fix things the "right" > way, so... > > And note that we are coming up on the end of Ubuntu 16.04 LTS support on > 30 April 2021. > > -- > Mark Wieder > ahsoftw...@gmail.com > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
"I wonder why LC don’t state support for later Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian builds?" I suspect that LiveCode believes that the uptake of the Linux version is insufficient to justify the effort of testing LC on those platforms. Richmond. On 14.12.20 2:20, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: Thanks all. These insights are useful. Hery’s explanation of their choice to move to Debian provides a good argument. I had just tried Ubuntu 20.04 in a parallels virtual machine and my server app worked ok. I will try a Debian build too. I wonder why LC don’t state support for later Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian builds? Sean Cole Pi Digital On 13 Dec 2020, at 19:27, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: Hi Sean, I've been using LiveCode on Ubuntu 16.04 and 18.04 for years (Servers and Desktops) and it worked fine. A years ago we migrated everything to CentOS / RedHat and Fedora (development machines and servers). However, we are going to migrate everything to Debian. Debian is very stable and offers the same user experience on Laptops, Workstations and Servers. Ubuntu is a good system, but after the drift from CentOS with IBM I don't want to put the heart of our systems in the hands of any big company. What would happen if tomorrow Ubuntu is acquired by Microsoft and they decide to charge money for it? That's not the case with Debian: Debian is completely independent and rock solid. I live between Madrid and New York and in both cities there are good professional companies who offer commercial technical support for Debian, so you don't need any big and greedy corps getting their hands on your IT systems. Best, Hery On 12/13/20 12:40 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: Hi all, I just heard the news that RedHat is going to be dropping support for CentOS. With my recent issues with PDF Printing in CentOS, I was already looking to perhaps try out CentOS8 or another Dist. but now we have this news I'm thinking of going to Ubuntu. The release notes for LC says it supports Ubuntu 16.04, which is cool. But I notice my server host says they have 16.04, 18.04, 20.04 and 20.10. Is anyone out there running LC on one of these later builds of Ubuntu? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Or maybe I should be looking at Fedora. All the very best Sean Cole *Pi Digital * ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
On 12/13/20 4:20 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: Thanks all. These insights are useful. Hery’s explanation of their choice to move to Debian provides a good argument. I had just tried Ubuntu 20.04 in a parallels virtual machine and my server app worked ok. I will try a Debian build too. I wonder why LC don’t state support for later Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian builds? Because the team builds the engine on an Ubuntu 16 machine and so doesn't want to say they support anything later. The build process is broken on later versions. I submitted a PR to fix this (it works here) but apparently it doesn't fix things the "right" way, so... And note that we are coming up on the end of Ubuntu 16.04 LTS support on 30 April 2021. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Thanks all. These insights are useful. Hery’s explanation of their choice to move to Debian provides a good argument. I had just tried Ubuntu 20.04 in a parallels virtual machine and my server app worked ok. I will try a Debian build too. I wonder why LC don’t state support for later Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian builds? Sean Cole Pi Digital > On 13 Dec 2020, at 19:27, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: > > Hi Sean, > > I've been using LiveCode on Ubuntu 16.04 and 18.04 for years (Servers and > Desktops) and it worked fine. A years ago we migrated everything to CentOS / > RedHat and Fedora (development machines and servers). However, we are going > to migrate everything to Debian. > Debian is very stable and offers the same user experience on Laptops, > Workstations and Servers. > > Ubuntu is a good system, but after the drift from CentOS with IBM I don't > want to put the heart of our systems in the hands of any big company. > What would happen if tomorrow Ubuntu is acquired by Microsoft and they decide > to charge money for it? That's not the case with Debian: Debian is completely > independent and rock solid. > > I live between Madrid and New York and in both cities there are good > professional companies who offer commercial technical support for Debian, so > you don't need any big and greedy corps getting their hands on your IT > systems. > > Best, > Hery > > > > >> On 12/13/20 12:40 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I just heard the news that RedHat is going to be dropping support for >> CentOS. With my recent issues with PDF Printing in CentOS, I was already >> looking to perhaps try out CentOS8 or another Dist. but now we have this >> news I'm thinking of going to Ubuntu. >> >> The release notes for LC says it supports Ubuntu 16.04, which is cool. But >> I notice my server host says they have 16.04, 18.04, 20.04 and 20.10. Is >> anyone out there running LC on one of these later builds of Ubuntu? I'd >> like to hear your thoughts. Or maybe I should be looking at Fedora. >> >> All the very best >> >> Sean Cole >> *Pi Digital * >> ___ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription >> preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Hi Sean, I've been using LiveCode on Ubuntu 16.04 and 18.04 for years (Servers and Desktops) and it worked fine. A years ago we migrated everything to CentOS / RedHat and Fedora (development machines and servers). However, we are going to migrate everything to Debian. Debian is very stable and offers the same user experience on Laptops, Workstations and Servers. Ubuntu is a good system, but after the drift from CentOS with IBM I don't want to put the heart of our systems in the hands of any big company. What would happen if tomorrow Ubuntu is acquired by Microsoft and they decide to charge money for it? That's not the case with Debian: Debian is completely independent and rock solid. I live between Madrid and New York and in both cities there are good professional companies who offer commercial technical support for Debian, so you don't need any big and greedy corps getting their hands on your IT systems. Best, Hery On 12/13/20 12:40 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: Hi all, I just heard the news that RedHat is going to be dropping support for CentOS. With my recent issues with PDF Printing in CentOS, I was already looking to perhaps try out CentOS8 or another Dist. but now we have this news I'm thinking of going to Ubuntu. The release notes for LC says it supports Ubuntu 16.04, which is cool. But I notice my server host says they have 16.04, 18.04, 20.04 and 20.10. Is anyone out there running LC on one of these later builds of Ubuntu? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Or maybe I should be looking at Fedora. All the very best Sean Cole *Pi Digital * ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
I personally use Neon, it's based upon Ubuntu and is the development base platform for KDE. I find that it is better integrated between the tools as they are specializing upon one desktop and ensuring everything is properly supported. I have used livecode on it over the past year without issue. So, all the benefits of ubuntu but more stable and better supported, downside is that you are limited to only the one desktop environment or else all the stability issues are gone. best regards Dalton On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 13:50, Richmond via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Well, I am running LC 9.6.1 on Xubuntu (Ubuntu with XFCE) 20.10 without > a backward glance: Rocks! > > Richmond. > > On 13.12.20 19:40, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I just heard the news that RedHat is going to be dropping support for > > CentOS. With my recent issues with PDF Printing in CentOS, I was already > > looking to perhaps try out CentOS8 or another Dist. but now we have this > > news I'm thinking of going to Ubuntu. > > > > The release notes for LC says it supports Ubuntu 16.04, which is cool. > But > > I notice my server host says they have 16.04, 18.04, 20.04 and 20.10. Is > > anyone out there running LC on one of these later builds of Ubuntu? I'd > > like to hear your thoughts. Or maybe I should be looking at Fedora. > > > > All the very best > > > > Sean Cole > > *Pi Digital * > > ___ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: CentOS Death in 2021
Well, I am running LC 9.6.1 on Xubuntu (Ubuntu with XFCE) 20.10 without a backward glance: Rocks! Richmond. On 13.12.20 19:40, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: Hi all, I just heard the news that RedHat is going to be dropping support for CentOS. With my recent issues with PDF Printing in CentOS, I was already looking to perhaps try out CentOS8 or another Dist. but now we have this news I'm thinking of going to Ubuntu. The release notes for LC says it supports Ubuntu 16.04, which is cool. But I notice my server host says they have 16.04, 18.04, 20.04 and 20.10. Is anyone out there running LC on one of these later builds of Ubuntu? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Or maybe I should be looking at Fedora. All the very best Sean Cole *Pi Digital * ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
CentOS Death in 2021
Hi all, I just heard the news that RedHat is going to be dropping support for CentOS. With my recent issues with PDF Printing in CentOS, I was already looking to perhaps try out CentOS8 or another Dist. but now we have this news I'm thinking of going to Ubuntu. The release notes for LC says it supports Ubuntu 16.04, which is cool. But I notice my server host says they have 16.04, 18.04, 20.04 and 20.10. Is anyone out there running LC on one of these later builds of Ubuntu? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Or maybe I should be looking at Fedora. All the very best Sean Cole *Pi Digital * ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
