Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]
Interesting stuff. "But writing in LC means that you have to master concepts and algorithms" I wonder which programming language (and I don't mean block-based baby-hits-the-Lego-bricks stuff) does not involve mastering concepts and algorithms. One of the things that has slightly annoyed me in every single discussion I have seen about learning and teaching programming in the last 25 years was the assumption that somehow one could have a "free lunch." You can't! Learning any new skill (driving a tractor?) involves mastering concepts. Most of the attempts at dumbing down have resulted in . . . wait for it . . . dumb stuff. When BASIC was developed there was no attempt to dumb things down; just make the learning curve not like the sort of exponential cliff that put off lots and lots of kids prior to that. LiveCode does not dumb things down, but its learning curve is one "h" shallower than Python, C++ and all the other "usual suspects." Notwithstanding its shallow learning curve, no-one is going to get very far if they behaved like me in the market in Jeddah (KSA) in 1996; "taxi, flat, help." (Actually I did get quite far, as the people in the market felt so sorry for me with my non-existent Arabic that they gave me a sandwich and a cup of coffee.) This was one of the main reasons why, very quickly, I got my head round a few Arabic verbs. "The so called universal language was announced to be a possibility in LC to enhance the language but also, as announced, to translate it in other languages (like french) for kids with french words and expressions for example." Sacre "oink". C'est un projet impossible, Je pense. When I read/hear the phrase "universal language" I start thinking of Esperanto and Volupak . . . need I say more? Why don't the Francophones put down their glasses of pastis and design their own object-oriented programming language, forbye? Well, just possibly because, like it or not, the English-speaking world seem to be rather well ahead of everyone else in terms of computer programming languages. This could be due to an awful lot of European ennui. Why did Linus Torvalds not do "his stuff" in Finnish, and why does he and his family live in California? Go figure. Je n'ai aucune sympathie pour les gens qui n'a pas un peu de langue Anglais (Ouf, J'ai lu un livre de Denis Diderot hier, et dans le Francais de Diderot il ecrivait "Anglois.") un jeune qui est un monoglot est un infirme. There, you see; I've got crappy French, so why can't other people have crappy English? On 5.11.19 10:37, Georges Malamoud via use-livecode wrote: There are many good reasons to learn another language, ranging from the well-proven neurological benefits of multiple languages to the simple common courtesy of doing so - but in straightforward "increase in ability to communicate" I'm unconvinced that an English speaker gains enough to justify the effort. Hello. I am french and an active person for cultural and linguistic diversity, not only for french speaking (francophone )countries :) To speak several languages is a way to become richer, more open and versatile. Those who prefer to master only one language are ok but they are also sometimes closed to other cultures and, if it is not a problem for them, then it can be a problem for the others, the strangers. Those who would like to understand several languages, but cannot, are more open to cultural diversity. It is often a matter of choice. On the competitive market, it is best to speak several languages, of course. For me the best multicultural meeting is when each one speaks its own language (2 or 3) and everybody understand the others, because it is easier to understand that to speak. Those who measure their efforts in this matter are just losing ground. Have you seen several people speaking english with very different backgrounds (even in the same country) ? This can be a big source of problems in international meetings ;) Coming back to Livecode, two points : - LC is easier to read than to write because of its long sentences. It is a huge quality. But writing in LC means that you have to master concepts and algorithms and particularities of this loved and ç§&@!?’ed language. Easier if you know several computer languages. Fight for the computer language diversity also ! - The so called universal language was announced to be a possibility in LC to enhance the language but also, as announced, to translate it in other languages (like french) for kids with french words and expressions for example. Where are we on this subject ? Nowhere, it seems to me ! Too bad... ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list
Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]
>> There are many good reasons to learn another language, ranging from the >> well-proven neurological benefits of multiple languages to the simple common >> courtesy of doing so - but in straightforward "increase in ability to >> communicate" I'm unconvinced that an English speaker gains enough to justify >> the effort. Hello. I am french and an active person for cultural and linguistic diversity, not only for french speaking (francophone )countries :) To speak several languages is a way to become richer, more open and versatile. Those who prefer to master only one language are ok but they are also sometimes closed to other cultures and, if it is not a problem for them, then it can be a problem for the others, the strangers. Those who would like to understand several languages, but cannot, are more open to cultural diversity. It is often a matter of choice. On the competitive market, it is best to speak several languages, of course. For me the best multicultural meeting is when each one speaks its own language (2 or 3) and everybody understand the others, because it is easier to understand that to speak. Those who measure their efforts in this matter are just losing ground. Have you seen several people speaking english with very different backgrounds (even in the same country) ? This can be a big source of problems in international meetings ;) Coming back to Livecode, two points : - LC is easier to read than to write because of its long sentences. It is a huge quality. But writing in LC means that you have to master concepts and algorithms and particularities of this loved and ç§&@!?’ed language. Easier if you know several computer languages. Fight for the computer language diversity also ! - The so called universal language was announced to be a possibility in LC to enhance the language but also, as announced, to translate it in other languages (like french) for kids with french words and expressions for example. Where are we on this subject ? Nowhere, it seems to me ! Too bad... ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]
I think that that has little to do with how people acquire other languages, but quite a lot to do with concepts of inclusiveness and tribalism. I doubt whether those Slovakians are consciously setting out to be rude, but: 1. They probably feel that it is easier to convey certain concepts to their compatriots in their mother tongue. 2. I felt, on my visit to the USA last Summer, that people seemed less friendly than when I was there for 3 years in the early 90s. Put this down to a cultural shift if you will, put it down to the effect of everyone's favourite half-Hebridean if you will, put it down to some sort of rise in racism; I honestly don't know. Of course if one wants to be tribal and rude (which are often confused) a person like myself educated in England could get "all b*tchy" about your "perfectly good english." :) Which does rather prove the point, that all of what you have mentioned about Slovakian volleyball players comes down to perceptions and manners: not how languages are learnt. On 4.11.19 17:54, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: I'll just throw this in the mix. I find in America that where once people spoke the language common to their immediate society (the people around them) now people seem to not care. We have 3 slovakian volleyball players at the beach who in spite of speaking perfectly good english, revert to slovakian often, for which I chide them regularly. It's like walking over to a corner in a party and whispering to each other while everyone looks on. I find it rude. Bob S On Nov 3, 2019, at 17:33 , Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: On 03/11/2019 22:04, Richmond via use-livecode wrote: I'm not sure if in some countries kids learn languages more easily than in others. But, I do think: 1. In English-speaking countries there is an unconscious feeling that learning a foreign language is not 100% serious as "all the world learns English." No, it's surely simpler than that. For an English speaker, a rational analysis shows that the Return on Investment for learning *any* other language is much lower than the RoI for anyone else thinking of learning English. Learning another language is (for most of us) difficult - it takes a lot of time, energy and effort; so it's a legitimate question whether or not it is worth that investment ? Although Mandarin and Hindi are spoken by more people than English, the great majority of those people are very unlikely to be encountered by any English speaker. Spanish has some claim - but outside of South America its numbers are much smaller - and the percentage of those outside South America who don't also speak English is (I suspect - can't find reliable numbers to back it up) probably low. There are many good reasons to learn another language, ranging from the well-proven neurological benefits of multiple languages to the simple common courtesy of doing so - but in straightforward "increase in ability to communicate" I'm unconvinced that an English speaker gains enough to justify the effort. Better to put the time / money into supporting EFL / ESL for others :-) Alex, only partially tongue in cheek. P.S. hmmm does that argument also apply to Livecode ?? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]
I agree on this Bob. Op 4-11-2019 om 16:54 schreef Bob Sneidar via use-livecode: I'll just throw this in the mix. I find in America that where once people spoke the language common to their immediate society (the people around them) now people seem to not care. We have 3 slovakian volleyball players at the beach who in spite of speaking perfectly good english, revert to slovakian often, for which I chide them regularly. It's like walking over to a corner in a party and whispering to each other while everyone looks on. I find it rude. Bob S On Nov 3, 2019, at 17:33 , Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: On 03/11/2019 22:04, Richmond via use-livecode wrote: I'm not sure if in some countries kids learn languages more easily than in others. But, I do think: 1. In English-speaking countries there is an unconscious feeling that learning a foreign language is not 100% serious as "all the world learns English." No, it's surely simpler than that. For an English speaker, a rational analysis shows that the Return on Investment for learning *any* other language is much lower than the RoI for anyone else thinking of learning English. Learning another language is (for most of us) difficult - it takes a lot of time, energy and effort; so it's a legitimate question whether or not it is worth that investment ? Although Mandarin and Hindi are spoken by more people than English, the great majority of those people are very unlikely to be encountered by any English speaker. Spanish has some claim - but outside of South America its numbers are much smaller - and the percentage of those outside South America who don't also speak English is (I suspect - can't find reliable numbers to back it up) probably low. There are many good reasons to learn another language, ranging from the well-proven neurological benefits of multiple languages to the simple common courtesy of doing so - but in straightforward "increase in ability to communicate" I'm unconvinced that an English speaker gains enough to justify the effort. Better to put the time / money into supporting EFL / ESL for others :-) Alex, only partially tongue in cheek. P.S. hmmm does that argument also apply to Livecode ?? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]
I'll just throw this in the mix. I find in America that where once people spoke the language common to their immediate society (the people around them) now people seem to not care. We have 3 slovakian volleyball players at the beach who in spite of speaking perfectly good english, revert to slovakian often, for which I chide them regularly. It's like walking over to a corner in a party and whispering to each other while everyone looks on. I find it rude. Bob S > On Nov 3, 2019, at 17:33 , Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: > > > On 03/11/2019 22:04, Richmond via use-livecode wrote: >> I'm not sure if in some countries kids learn languages more easily than in >> others. >> >> But, I do think: >> >> 1. In English-speaking countries there is an unconscious feeling that >> learning a foreign language is not 100% >> serious as "all the world learns English." >> > No, it's surely simpler than that. > > For an English speaker, a rational analysis shows that the Return on > Investment for learning *any* other language is much lower than the RoI for > anyone else thinking of learning English. > > Learning another language is (for most of us) difficult - it takes a lot of > time, energy and effort; so it's a legitimate question whether or not it is > worth that investment ? > > Although Mandarin and Hindi are spoken by more people than English, the great > majority of those people are very unlikely to be encountered by any English > speaker. > > Spanish has some claim - but outside of South America its numbers are much > smaller - and the percentage of those outside South America who don't also > speak English is (I suspect - can't find reliable numbers to back it up) > probably low. > > There are many good reasons to learn another language, ranging from the > well-proven neurological benefits of multiple languages to the simple common > courtesy of doing so - but in straightforward "increase in ability to > communicate" I'm unconvinced that an English speaker gains enough to justify > the effort. > > Better to put the time / money into supporting EFL / ESL for others :-) > > Alex, only partially tongue in cheek. > > P.S. hmmm does that argument also apply to Livecode ?? > > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]
On 03/11/2019 22:04, Richmond via use-livecode wrote: I'm not sure if in some countries kids learn languages more easily than in others. But, I do think: 1. In English-speaking countries there is an unconscious feeling that learning a foreign language is not 100% serious as "all the world learns English." No, it's surely simpler than that. For an English speaker, a rational analysis shows that the Return on Investment for learning *any* other language is much lower than the RoI for anyone else thinking of learning English. Learning another language is (for most of us) difficult - it takes a lot of time, energy and effort; so it's a legitimate question whether or not it is worth that investment ? Although Mandarin and Hindi are spoken by more people than English, the great majority of those people are very unlikely to be encountered by any English speaker. Spanish has some claim - but outside of South America its numbers are much smaller - and the percentage of those outside South America who don't also speak English is (I suspect - can't find reliable numbers to back it up) probably low. There are many good reasons to learn another language, ranging from the well-proven neurological benefits of multiple languages to the simple common courtesy of doing so - but in straightforward "increase in ability to communicate" I'm unconvinced that an English speaker gains enough to justify the effort. Better to put the time / money into supporting EFL / ESL for others :-) Alex, only partially tongue in cheek. P.S. hmmm does that argument also apply to Livecode ?? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]
The problem of learning human languages is not very different from the problem of learning programming languages. TMHO, not knowing JavaScript is comparable to not knowing Spanish (the dominant language in the USA). We all are more or less idiots. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]
I'm not sure if in some countries kids learn languages more easily than in others. But, I do think: 1. In English-speaking countries there is an unconscious feeling that learning a foreign language is not 100% serious as "all the world learns English." 2. Many countries where the national language(s) is/are only confined to that country (as in Bulgaria) there is a realisation that any school kid who does not learn at least one more widespread language (such as English) is going to have a very restricted list of choices re jobs (especially internationally) when they are adults. 3. Where foreign languages are taught by immersion in the target language (i.e. instruction is entirely in the L2 without any use of the L1) fluency in the L2 is acquired more rapidly and more completely. It should also be remembered that the younger the pupil, the more plastic and impressionable the brain: after all, do you remember learning your Mother-tongue? No, of course, I thought not. :) 4. If the target language belongs to the same language family as the L1 (i.e. German to English, Hindi to English: all Indo-European languages) acquisition will be far, far easier than between language families (i.e. kiSwahlil to English, French to Chinese). On 3.11.19 23:25, JJS via use-livecode wrote: Funny, the mistake is why one got the error and thus had a blunder. It seems that in Finland due to their school system that they are also pretty good in languages, it also seems they have the highest learning scores in Europe. Surprislngly it seems to be a system created in the USA where it is apperantly not used as was said in the documentary. Childeren first attend school when they are 7 with much less pression. In NL they go to school when they are 4 and kindergarten at age 2 or 3. I can also not tell why in some countries they learn languages easier than in other countries. Op 3-11-2019 om 17:08 schreef Graham Samuel via use-livecode: Thanks to those who replied to my original question. I also liked the OT diversion into learning Dutch. I have Dutch friends and I just don’t know how they successfully learn languages at school when other nationalities (British, French, Spanish etc) seem hopelessly bad at it. As an illustration I, a Brit, have spent a great deal of time in France and I can communicate more or less, but I would not say I can speak French. To say that would mean that I could express myself completely both aurally and in written form, have no trouble reading anything in print or watching anything on tv, and probably should be able to dream in French. Sadly it will just never happen. Back to the grindstone (what’s the equivalent of that in French?). Graham PS In my experience, Germans are also pretty good at languages: years ago I met a polylingual man in Munich who told me that at his school, the English master made them discuss the difference between a blunder, and error and a mistake! On 2 Nov 2019, at 08:27, JJS via use-livecode wrote: Yes we watch it too, he is famous. I love when his son tries to speak dutch haha. Sometimes his brother is in the show, then you can hear some Drents which is different from normal dutch but not as hard as Fries that's a language on it's own. Bob Sneidar via use-livecode schreef op 1 november 2019 23:34:08 CET: Dr. Pol is Dutch. I love that show. Bob S On Nov 1, 2019, at 15:31 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: we were very often in the Netherlands for vacation, so i seriously tried to learn Dutch. But it ended that the Dutch better understood me when i spoke German or English instead of Dutch. ;) Matthias Rebbe free tools for Livecoders: ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]
Funny, the mistake is why one got the error and thus had a blunder. It seems that in Finland due to their school system that they are also pretty good in languages, it also seems they have the highest learning scores in Europe. Surprislngly it seems to be a system created in the USA where it is apperantly not used as was said in the documentary. Childeren first attend school when they are 7 with much less pression. In NL they go to school when they are 4 and kindergarten at age 2 or 3. I can also not tell why in some countries they learn languages easier than in other countries. Op 3-11-2019 om 17:08 schreef Graham Samuel via use-livecode: Thanks to those who replied to my original question. I also liked the OT diversion into learning Dutch. I have Dutch friends and I just don’t know how they successfully learn languages at school when other nationalities (British, French, Spanish etc) seem hopelessly bad at it. As an illustration I, a Brit, have spent a great deal of time in France and I can communicate more or less, but I would not say I can speak French. To say that would mean that I could express myself completely both aurally and in written form, have no trouble reading anything in print or watching anything on tv, and probably should be able to dream in French. Sadly it will just never happen. Back to the grindstone (what’s the equivalent of that in French?). Graham PS In my experience, Germans are also pretty good at languages: years ago I met a polylingual man in Munich who told me that at his school, the English master made them discuss the difference between a blunder, and error and a mistake! On 2 Nov 2019, at 08:27, JJS via use-livecode wrote: Yes we watch it too, he is famous. I love when his son tries to speak dutch haha. Sometimes his brother is in the show, then you can hear some Drents which is different from normal dutch but not as hard as Fries that's a language on it's own. Bob Sneidar via use-livecode schreef op 1 november 2019 23:34:08 CET: Dr. Pol is Dutch. I love that show. Bob S On Nov 1, 2019, at 15:31 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: we were very often in the Netherlands for vacation, so i seriously tried to learn Dutch. But it ended that the Dutch better understood me when i spoke German or English instead of Dutch. ;) Matthias Rebbe free tools for Livecoders: ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]
Thanks to those who replied to my original question. I also liked the OT diversion into learning Dutch. I have Dutch friends and I just don’t know how they successfully learn languages at school when other nationalities (British, French, Spanish etc) seem hopelessly bad at it. As an illustration I, a Brit, have spent a great deal of time in France and I can communicate more or less, but I would not say I can speak French. To say that would mean that I could express myself completely both aurally and in written form, have no trouble reading anything in print or watching anything on tv, and probably should be able to dream in French. Sadly it will just never happen. Back to the grindstone (what’s the equivalent of that in French?). Graham PS In my experience, Germans are also pretty good at languages: years ago I met a polylingual man in Munich who told me that at his school, the English master made them discuss the difference between a blunder, and error and a mistake! > On 2 Nov 2019, at 08:27, JJS via use-livecode > wrote: > > Yes we watch it too, he is famous. I love when his son tries to speak dutch > haha. Sometimes his brother is in the show, then you can hear some Drents > which is different from normal dutch but not as hard as Fries that's a > language on it's own. > > Bob Sneidar via use-livecode schreef op 1 > november 2019 23:34:08 CET: >> Dr. Pol is Dutch. I love that show. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 15:31 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode >> wrote: >>> >>> we were very often in the Netherlands for vacation, so i seriously >> tried to learn Dutch. >>> But it ended that the Dutch better understood me when i spoke German >> or English instead of Dutch. ;) >>> >>> Matthias Rebbe >>> >>> free tools for Livecoders: >> >> >> ___ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > -- > Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail. > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
