Re: New Indy License Pricing
Andrew Kluthe wrote: Richard, It's not an issue of earnestness or integrity but of what has been delivered vs what we were told was going to be delivered. There is a huge gap between the way things looked when they were presented to us in April 2013 and the way they look today. ... Will things all be delivered? Yeah, probably. But how many more major version numbers will it take? We agree that the Road Map as presented and added to since April 2013 is being followed faithfully, and the only question you and I have (in contrast to those who try to raise doubts about their integrity) isn't at all about what is being delivered, but merely when. I mentioned Steven McConnell because not since Fred Brooks have I found a writer whose explorations of software project management are as well researched. In his book Code Complete he notes that more than 80% of software projects are over budget, many by a factor of four and significant minority by a factor of 16, sometimes more. Variance between estimated time and actual is affected by many things, but one of the biggest is the scope of unknowns introduced by dependency on code beyond the control of the team. With seven platform APIs to map LC's internal logic to, we can expect variance to be on the higher end of industry averages. Software project estimation remains a key focus of some of the best minds of our industry specifically because getting it right consistently proves elusive. There's a lot that could be said about the challenges inherent in estimating, and methods to reduce variance. And anyone here who's been able to consistently beat industry averages is encouraged to share their demonstrated experience here. For myself, when I'm able to beat industry averages in large part it's because 90% of my code was written in Edinburgh over many years by people much smarter than me. That's a big part of what keeps me patient with the anticipatable delays with LC's Road Map delivery. How many of them will turn into additional kickstarters when their revenue stream dries up? I doubt there'd be much ROI in a third crowd-funding effort, so I'm not all that worried about that. As for the second one, they promised a proof-of-concept build within a year of closing, and it was delivered last week. Sure, it has a long way to go until it's production-ready, as we would expect. But until it's released any contributions to that campaign for licenses haven't kicked in yet, so that one isn't a concern for me. Are many of these features going to end up being mac specific when it gets down to finding out how hard they are to make cross platform? As much as I enjoy my Macs, I'm doing so much more work on Ubuntu these days that that's an ongoing question for me too. But in practice I've been relieved to find that I'm just not seeing that. So far most of the 2500+ fixes and enhancements put into place over the last year and a half benefit all platforms. Any Mac-specific work at this point seems to be limited to the minimum needed to maintain that platform as a viable deployment option, such as replacing QT after Apple deprecated it and moving to Cocoa as that became necessary. On the contrary, as an Ubuntu user I've been more than pleased by the team's efforts with greater GDK integration in v7. And since like many of us here I make most of my money from Windows deployments, it's been good to see how much attention they've been giving the rendering subsystem to maintain compatibility there with newer display APIs. That's what I mean when I say trust. Brand fetishism just isn't enough to live on anymore. The actual performance as a company lately, frankly, sucks. Since, I know you are going to want examples of why someone might feel this way: - On-rev (do I really need to say more? Search the list for on-rev) On-rev is a separate service that doesn't affect my use of LiveCode, and given how cheap and plentiful hosting is these days I've never used it as I'm already up to my armpits in servers. That said, it is course run by the same company, so I can appreciate how subscribers to that service may have a different view of the company than I do, because we rely on them for different things. There's a lot to be said for the bowling alley strategy Geoff Moore describes in The Gorilla Game. But I don't run Kevin's company and he doesn't run mine, and we both like it that way. I got out of the hosting business 15 years ago when the margins plummeted. On balance I feel compelled to note that I have several friends who are quite pleased with the service, and since I've never used it myself I have no opinion about it beyond that. -The documentation is scattered, sparse, and most of the code samples are images. Fun. A complete overhaul of all documentation has been underway for some time (it's not a small task), and as recently as last week I met with Kevin to discuss ways we
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Richard, It's not an issue of earnestness or integrity but of what has been delivered vs what we were told was going to be delivered. There is a huge gap between the way things looked when they were presented to us in April 2013 and the way they look today. This has been the point of conversation on this list several times. It isn't a result of being dishonest or the other amusing caricatures you painted to make a point. It is the result of lets pile more things we might be able deliver on so that we can get more funding from excited people. Had the best of intentions, just didn't pan out like they planned. Will things all be delivered? Yeah, probably. But how many more major version numbers will it take? How many of them will turn into additional kickstarters when their revenue stream dries up? Are many of these features going to end up being mac specific when it gets down to finding out how hard they are to make cross platform? That's what I mean when I say trust. Brand fetishism just isn't enough to live on anymore. The actual performance as a company lately, frankly, sucks. Since, I know you are going to want examples of why someone might feel this way: - On-rev (do I really need to say more? Search the list for on-rev) -The documentation is scattered, sparse, and most of the code samples are images. Fun. -The website is going down an awful lot rendering the point above moot as it's not available. -Everything i mentioned above about the disappointments that followed the delivery of the kickstarter campaign. Runrev's track record isn't dishonesty, it's being confident that they can follow through on the things they set out to do and do them well. So this admittance from Kevin that they spent 2x what they raised on the kickstarter to build Livecode 7 continues to point to that. On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:35 PM Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com wrote: Andrew Kluthe wrote: Price Increase? No big deal. Even less so when we consider that the new price was the price before last year's experiment with lower prices. In fact, it's only $4 more than I used to pay for annual renewals with MetaCard back in '98, after paying an initial licensing fee of $995. Some talk about this like it's tennis shoes or other commodities, Just lower the price to sell more! The total addressable market for software developer tools is a slender fraction of what most consumer apps can aim for. Look at the bell curve and remember that a person needs an IQ of at least 115 just to begin to find programming at all interesting. Race-to-the-bottom pricing just doesn't work for such a highly specialized product that can only appeal to a relatively slender slice of the gene pool. Everyone needs shoes, but few have any interest at all in programming. Commercial vs Open Source Feature Parity? Could also be no big deal if done with some good intentions. So far there's been only feature parity, and the only thing Kevin discussed in his email is a single Widget add-on for exotic camera features, which takes nothing away from any of the other front- or back-facing camera commands we have on mobile now, or any of the webcam and other image input support on the desktop. And while I can appreciate Kevin's desire to come up with supplemental revenue streams, I suspect he'll find that add-on components for a developer tool isn't exactly easy money, so I don't expect this to be a major trend. Only Subscription licensing? No big deal, helps keep costs down for us to stay bleeding edge and helps stabilize the income runrev can count on. And not at all new. The switch to subscriptions went into effect more than two years ago when the Community Edition premiered. But all three of these together? It's kind of obvious why people are complaining/suspicious of the long term intentions here. Given that two of those three aren't new and the third (a proprietary add-on) doesn't even exist yet, it's less clear to me. Or maybe it's no more mystifying than anything else we see in any reasonably sizable Internet community. As a population grows to reflect larger demographics, we can expect a portion of any group to disagree with changes within that group. And given human nature, those who are satisfied with the change will be happily enjoying it rather than writing about it, giving disproportionate voice to a relatively small subset of the group. We see this with nearly every aspect of collective human activity, from politics to products. A casual observer might count dissenting posts, but if we look at dissenting people the number is much smaller. And if we look at the audience size as a whole and compare the number of dissenting people to that, the proportionality becomes even clearer. This isn't to suggest that contrary views shouldn't be discussed. Sometimes great ideas come from vigorous debate. But the repetition is sometimes a bit much, and in any
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Wrong thread. Bob S On Jul 21, 2015, at 13:17 , David Bovill david@viral.academy wrote: I want to send gzip encoded data back from the LiveCode server I'm working on. According to the docs: compress function uses the slob compression library. And according to Wikipedia The Content-Encoding/Accept-Encoding and Transfer-Encoding/TE headers in HTTP https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP/1.1 allow clients to optionally receive compressed HTTP https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_compression responses and (less commonly) to send compressed requests. The specification for HTTP/1.1 (RFC 2616 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616) specifies three compression methods: gzip (RFC 1952 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1952; the content wrapped in a gzip stream), deflate (RFC 1950 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950; the content wrapped in a zlib-formatted stream), and compress (explained in RFC 2616 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616 section 3.5 as *The encoding format produced by the common UNIX file compression program compress. This format is an adaptive Lempel-Ziv-Welch coding (LZW).*). Many client libraries, browsers, and server platforms (including Apache https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server and Microsoft IIS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_IIS) support gzip. Many agents also support deflate, although several important players incorrectly implement deflate support using the format specified by RFC 1951 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1951 instead of the correct format specified by RFC 1950 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950 (which encapsulates RFC 1951 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1951). Notably, Internet Explorer versions 6, 7, and 8 report deflate support but do not actually accept RFC 1950 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950 format, making actual use of deflate highly unusual. Many clients accept both RFC 1951 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1951 and RFC 1950 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950-formatted data for the deflate compressed method, but a server has no way to detect whether a client will correctly handle RFC 1950 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950 format. That bodes well. Anyone know if this works with most browsers? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Try playing a MOLRP game with infantile teenagers. Bob S On Jul 21, 2015, at 15:37 , J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.commailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com wrote: Ask any product manager, or restaurant owner, or retail manager, or anyone else who thoroughly reviews customer feedback. Sentiment almost always skews negative Which has spawned the sage advice regarding web sites to never read the comments. Some of the stuff people write behind their veil of annonymity is just horrible. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Oh, that’s easy! I am the only employee of my company, which is by the by a ficticious one, and I pay myself so little, nothing in fact, that I am pondering having to leave myself. Bob S On Jul 21, 2015, at 09:16 , Chris Sheffield cs_livec...@icloud.com wrote: There are two other limitations to be aware of, if I understand the terms correctly: 1) Your company/organization cannot have more than 5 employees total, and 2) cannot make more than $500,000 per year. On Jul 21, 2015, at 10:06 AM, Earthednet-wp proth...@earthednet.org wrote: Bob, I subscribed to the Indy license with the understanding that it is the same as a commercial license, but for only a single developer. Hope I'm right. Bill William Prothero http://es.earthednet.org On Jul 21, 2015, at 7:29 AM, Bob Sneidar bobsnei...@iotecdigital.com wrote: Pardon my being late to the party, but I went to the web page and read up, but I still do not know what the “Indy” version is. I don’t want to miss the pricing deadline, but I also don’t want to subscribe to something then find out it is less than I wanted. Bob S On Jul 1, 2015, at 15:50 , Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote: Peter Haworth pete@... writes: I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the increase in Indy license pricing. From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode. Comments? Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5t=24729start=15 -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Bob, I subscribed to the Indy license with the understanding that it is the same as a commercial license, but for only a single developer. Hope I'm right. Bill William Prothero http://es.earthednet.org On Jul 21, 2015, at 7:29 AM, Bob Sneidar bobsnei...@iotecdigital.com wrote: Pardon my being late to the party, but I went to the web page and read up, but I still do not know what the “Indy” version is. I don’t want to miss the pricing deadline, but I also don’t want to subscribe to something then find out it is less than I wanted. Bob S On Jul 1, 2015, at 15:50 , Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote: Peter Haworth pete@... writes: I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the increase in Indy license pricing. From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode. Comments? Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5t=24729start=15 -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
There are two other limitations to be aware of, if I understand the terms correctly: 1) Your company/organization cannot have more than 5 employees total, and 2) cannot make more than $500,000 per year. On Jul 21, 2015, at 10:06 AM, Earthednet-wp proth...@earthednet.org wrote: Bob, I subscribed to the Indy license with the understanding that it is the same as a commercial license, but for only a single developer. Hope I'm right. Bill William Prothero http://es.earthednet.org On Jul 21, 2015, at 7:29 AM, Bob Sneidar bobsnei...@iotecdigital.com wrote: Pardon my being late to the party, but I went to the web page and read up, but I still do not know what the “Indy” version is. I don’t want to miss the pricing deadline, but I also don’t want to subscribe to something then find out it is less than I wanted. Bob S On Jul 1, 2015, at 15:50 , Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote: Peter Haworth pete@... writes: I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the increase in Indy license pricing. From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode. Comments? Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5t=24729start=15 -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Just read through some of the forum threads. Price Increase? No big deal. Commercial vs Open Source Feature Parity? Could also be no big deal if done with some good intentions. Only Subscription licensing? No big deal, helps keep costs down for us to stay bleeding edge and helps stabilize the income runrev can count on. But all three of these together? It's kind of obvious why people are complaining/suspicious of the long term intentions here. The issue is trust. In trusting runrev to know how to walk the fine line with the commercial features/licensing, not any of the issues individually. Not everyone is just going to take them for their word with this stuff anymore. Without that trust all of these things look very suspicious. We're gonna do all these things to get to what we promised, but after that ... after that, what? You take livecode open source to get funding to redesign it, release the completed redesign as open source and after some time completely focus future development efforts on commercial? Is that the after? It seems like that's what the mother ship was saying on those threads. No, that's not what we want to do. We are committed to being Open Source. Until you hit another funding wall and then those wants becomes have to's? Sure, it's a slippery slope fallacy, but the ground we've just traveled on from April 2013 didn't feel real solid. On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 11:16 AM Chris Sheffield cs_livec...@icloud.com wrote: There are two other limitations to be aware of, if I understand the terms correctly: 1) Your company/organization cannot have more than 5 employees total, and 2) cannot make more than $500,000 per year. On Jul 21, 2015, at 10:06 AM, Earthednet-wp proth...@earthednet.org wrote: Bob, I subscribed to the Indy license with the understanding that it is the same as a commercial license, but for only a single developer. Hope I'm right. Bill William Prothero http://es.earthednet.org On Jul 21, 2015, at 7:29 AM, Bob Sneidar bobsnei...@iotecdigital.com wrote: Pardon my being late to the party, but I went to the web page and read up, but I still do not know what the “Indy” version is. I don’t want to miss the pricing deadline, but I also don’t want to subscribe to something then find out it is less than I wanted. Bob S On Jul 1, 2015, at 15:50 , Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote: Peter Haworth pete@... writes: I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the increase in Indy license pricing. From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode. Comments? Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5t=24729start=15 -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 5:35 AM, Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com wrote: Some talk about this like it's tennis shoes... Everyone needs shoes, but few have any interest at all in programming. But not every one needs Tennis shoes. When HyperCard came out I was surprised and how many 'Tennis Players' came out of the woodwork ;-) I'm with Kevin, I believe everyone CAN code. We can imagine all sorts of stuff. I can dream up a world in which ... Wrestling a similar situation with a stronghold of Luddites at a Club I'm a member of. It has a website and a Wiki and members are continually complaining that this is wrong or that is missing or something needs updating. Well go ahead and fix it, it's a Wiki, you can do it. And then all the excuses come out; the original author hasn't given me permission, I don't want to tread on any ones toe's, I'm not an expert in the field - someone with more knowledge should do it, there should be an approval process, the Committee should oversee amendments, the Wiki will turn into a pile of spaghetti, it will be anarchy, all will be lost, the world will end... Yet the Wiki has been there for over 5 years and no spaghetti, no anarchy, no lost information. Just the few who always volunteer working against the avalanche of complainers. Or we could just look at actual observable performance. But why wreck a good conspiracy theory with fact ;-) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Exactly my point, I don't think there is an easy answer here besides what runrev is wanting to do. They said it themselves, they have to. I think the reaction is a result of mistrust/fear and not actual issues with what's being proposed. Are you going to quiet all alarmists and settle every single persons anxiety regarding this? No, but it seems like there has been more fear and anxiety about the motherships' decisions lately than there ought to be. How do we go about preventing that in the future? More transparency (they've been trying)? Being very specific and careful (maybe even engage the community directly) with what gets rolled into commercial as a paid-only feature? For instance: I would expect stuff like a customizable datagrid widget tuned for performance even on mobile (and mobile deployment itself) not to be a paid only feature. But I could certainly see a pre-configured inbox style datagrid or a timeline control being a specialized commercial widget that could be bought and used in the commercial version helping to generate some money. I can see paid widgets being the way to handle this Commercial vs Community Feature parity issue. I hope its along these lines and not You can't deploy to Rasp pi, android or IOS unless you are on commercial license. Commercial should provide advantages but community should not provide intentional dis-advantages. On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 2:17 PM J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com wrote: On 7/21/2015 12:22 PM, Andrew Kluthe wrote: No, that's not what we want to do. We are committed to being Open Source. Until you hit another funding wall and then those wants becomes have to's? I'm curious how one would fund development on a massive project like LC when almost everyone is using the free version. So far, most of the suggestions I've seen posted have already been tried or are too silly to implement. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
On 7/21/2015 12:22 PM, Andrew Kluthe wrote: No, that's not what we want to do. We are committed to being Open Source. Until you hit another funding wall and then those wants becomes have to's? I'm curious how one would fund development on a massive project like LC when almost everyone is using the free version. So far, most of the suggestions I've seen posted have already been tried or are too silly to implement. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Andrew Kluthe wrote: Price Increase? No big deal. Even less so when we consider that the new price was the price before last year's experiment with lower prices. In fact, it's only $4 more than I used to pay for annual renewals with MetaCard back in '98, after paying an initial licensing fee of $995. Some talk about this like it's tennis shoes or other commodities, Just lower the price to sell more! The total addressable market for software developer tools is a slender fraction of what most consumer apps can aim for. Look at the bell curve and remember that a person needs an IQ of at least 115 just to begin to find programming at all interesting. Race-to-the-bottom pricing just doesn't work for such a highly specialized product that can only appeal to a relatively slender slice of the gene pool. Everyone needs shoes, but few have any interest at all in programming. Commercial vs Open Source Feature Parity? Could also be no big deal if done with some good intentions. So far there's been only feature parity, and the only thing Kevin discussed in his email is a single Widget add-on for exotic camera features, which takes nothing away from any of the other front- or back-facing camera commands we have on mobile now, or any of the webcam and other image input support on the desktop. And while I can appreciate Kevin's desire to come up with supplemental revenue streams, I suspect he'll find that add-on components for a developer tool isn't exactly easy money, so I don't expect this to be a major trend. Only Subscription licensing? No big deal, helps keep costs down for us to stay bleeding edge and helps stabilize the income runrev can count on. And not at all new. The switch to subscriptions went into effect more than two years ago when the Community Edition premiered. But all three of these together? It's kind of obvious why people are complaining/suspicious of the long term intentions here. Given that two of those three aren't new and the third (a proprietary add-on) doesn't even exist yet, it's less clear to me. Or maybe it's no more mystifying than anything else we see in any reasonably sizable Internet community. As a population grows to reflect larger demographics, we can expect a portion of any group to disagree with changes within that group. And given human nature, those who are satisfied with the change will be happily enjoying it rather than writing about it, giving disproportionate voice to a relatively small subset of the group. We see this with nearly every aspect of collective human activity, from politics to products. A casual observer might count dissenting posts, but if we look at dissenting people the number is much smaller. And if we look at the audience size as a whole and compare the number of dissenting people to that, the proportionality becomes even clearer. This isn't to suggest that contrary views shouldn't be discussed. Sometimes great ideas come from vigorous debate. But the repetition is sometimes a bit much, and in any social situation it's always useful to avoid presumptions of bad intentions. The issue is trust. In trusting runrev to know how to walk the fine line with the commercial features/licensing, not any of the issues individually. Not everyone is just going to take them for their word with this stuff anymore. Why not? You noted that none of those issues is a big deal at all, so what exactly has changed? When we believe we may have reasons to question someone's future behaviors, more informative than conjecture would be to review past performance. We can imagine all sorts of stuff. I can dream up a world in which Kevin graduated from the Larry Ellison School of Annoying Open Source Communities, laughing at us all under his top hat in between chomps on his cigar as he removes his monacle to say, Ha! I fooled you all! There's no limit to the human imagination. Or we could just look at actual observable performance. Sure, the company has their share of missteps, and arguably some details of the wording of that email are among them. But what has Kevin or anyone else there ever done to exhibit anything less than earnestness in delivering on their stated objectives? Sure, they don't always get everything right. And like the other 84% of projects Steven McConnell reviewed from ACM literature in writing his books, they've discovered they're not the first company that can make extremely ambitious goals involving complete rewrites across seven platforms and do it all on their original estimated schedule. Lots of areas to improve, in their company, and mine, and perhaps those of some of the others here. But earnestness and integrity? I've seen nothing that would make me question that. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Le 21 juil. 2015 à 23:12, JB sund...@pacifier.com a écrit : I hope they are making money because it is a good programming language. For sure ! It’s both an amazing XTalk and, less well known, one of the best and most mature functional programming language ever published... -- Pierre Sahores mobile : 06 03 95 77 70 www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Le 21 juil. 2015 à 23:35, Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com a écrit : And given human nature, those who are satisfied with the change will be happily enjoying it rather than writing about it, giving disproportionate voice to a relatively small subset of the group. ;D -- Pierre Sahores mobile : 06 03 95 77 70 www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
I hope its along these lines and not You can't deploy to Rasp pi, android Just a little note: Raspberry Pi deployment is only supported by the community version. Matthias ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Pierre Sahores wrote: Le 21 juil. 2015 à 23:35, Richard Gaskin a écrit : And given human nature, those who are satisfied with the change will be happily enjoying it rather than writing about it, giving disproportionate voice to a relatively small subset of the group. ;D Don't mind providing a chuckle, but that wasn't meant as a joke or a dig, just a sober observation across pretty much all industries. Ask any product manager, or restaurant owner, or retail manager, or anyone else who thoroughly reviews customer feedback. Sentiment almost always skews negative, not because all products and services are bad, but mostly because happy customers don't take the time to write. I sometimes do, with restaurants and retailers and more. When I've had a good experience I share it with them, if only because I know how hard their job is, and positive feedback can be as useful as negative. In just about every case the response I get is just short of shock - some of those managers have never had a customer take the time to say something nice. It's not even necessarily a bad reflection on human nature. It's just something people do. If there's a problem, they need to have it addressed, but when things are going well their attention is on the result they're getting with the product rather than the product itself. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
I want to send gzip encoded data back from the LiveCode server I'm working on. According to the docs: compress function uses the slob compression library. And according to Wikipedia The Content-Encoding/Accept-Encoding and Transfer-Encoding/TE headers in HTTP https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP/1.1 allow clients to optionally receive compressed HTTP https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_compression responses and (less commonly) to send compressed requests. The specification for HTTP/1.1 (RFC 2616 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616) specifies three compression methods: gzip (RFC 1952 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1952; the content wrapped in a gzip stream), deflate (RFC 1950 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950; the content wrapped in a zlib-formatted stream), and compress (explained in RFC 2616 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616 section 3.5 as *The encoding format produced by the common UNIX file compression program compress. This format is an adaptive Lempel-Ziv-Welch coding (LZW).*). Many client libraries, browsers, and server platforms (including Apache https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server and Microsoft IIS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_IIS) support gzip. Many agents also support deflate, although several important players incorrectly implement deflate support using the format specified by RFC 1951 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1951 instead of the correct format specified by RFC 1950 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950 (which encapsulates RFC 1951 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1951). Notably, Internet Explorer versions 6, 7, and 8 report deflate support but do not actually accept RFC 1950 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950 format, making actual use of deflate highly unusual. Many clients accept both RFC 1951 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1951 and RFC 1950 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950-formatted data for the deflate compressed method, but a server has no way to detect whether a client will correctly handle RFC 1950 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950 format. That bodes well. Anyone know if this works with most browsers? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
If like you say most people are using the free version it makes me wonder what the income difference is using a subscription plan compered to purchasing it. I hope they are making money because it is a good programming language. John Balgenorth On Jul 21, 2015, at 12:16 PM, J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com wrote: On 7/21/2015 12:22 PM, Andrew Kluthe wrote: No, that's not what we want to do. We are committed to being Open Source. Until you hit another funding wall and then those wants becomes have to's? I'm curious how one would fund development on a massive project like LC when almost everyone is using the free version. So far, most of the suggestions I've seen posted have already been tried or are too silly to implement. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
On 7/21/2015 5:15 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Ask any product manager, or restaurant owner, or retail manager, or anyone else who thoroughly reviews customer feedback. Sentiment almost always skews negative Which has spawned the sage advice regarding web sites to never read the comments. Some of the stuff people write behind their veil of annonymity is just horrible. I sometimes do, with restaurants and retailers and more. When I've had a good experience I share it with them, if only because I know how hard their job is, and positive feedback can be as useful as negative. In just about every case the response I get is just short of shock I had the same experience after writing about a very pleasant purchasing experience. The company's customer support wrote back, Thank you so much. Nobody EVER says that! I also seek out and tell the manger at a restaurant if the wait-person has been exceptional. I saw a tagline once: It doesn't take a minute longer to be kind. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Pardon my being late to the party, but I went to the web page and read up, but I still do not know what the “Indy” version is. I don’t want to miss the pricing deadline, but I also don’t want to subscribe to something then find out it is less than I wanted. Bob S On Jul 1, 2015, at 15:50 , Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote: Peter Haworth pete@... writes: I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the increase in Indy license pricing. From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode. Comments? Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5t=24729start=15 -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
New Indy License Pricing
I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the increase in Indy license pricing. From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode. Comments? Pete ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
All I can say is to send feedback to Kevin. I already did and they are listening. Dirk cleenwerck. On Jul 1, 2015 23:15, Peter Haworth p...@lcsql.com wrote: I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the increase in Indy license pricing. From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode. Comments? Pete ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
And boom goes the forum. On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote: Peter Haworth pete@... writes: I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the increase in Indy license pricing. From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode. Comments? Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5t=24729start=15 -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 4:24 PM, Mike Bonner bonnm...@gmail.com wrote: And boom goes the forum. I thought it was my provider. It appears we are still in the networking middle ages. -- Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA - Deeds Not Words ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Peter Haworth pete@... writes: I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the increase in Indy license pricing. From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode. Comments? Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5t=24729start=15 -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Diesel is serving web pages. On-rev email is working (IMAP, I don’t use SMTP). livecode.com no . downloads.livecode.com no . on-rev.com no (!)(I guess it isn’t really in the on-rev hosting) On Jul 1, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Dave Kilroy d...@applicationinsight.com wrote: Not just the forum, all of livecode.com So far my on-rev sites are ok crosses fingers Anyone able to tell if the problem is a ddos or one of their servers falling over? Mike Bonner wrote And boom goes the forum. - The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/New-Indy-License-Pricing-tp4693525p4693537.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: New Indy License Pricing
Not just the forum, all of livecode.com So far my on-rev sites are ok crosses fingers Anyone able to tell if the problem is a ddos or one of their servers falling over? Mike Bonner wrote And boom goes the forum. - The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/New-Indy-License-Pricing-tp4693525p4693537.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
