subject:"RE\: Infinite LiveCode \- Message from CEO"

I admit you are right.

Richmond.

On 14.05.2016 17:01, Richard Gaskin wrote:

RM wrote:

> AND, as to "complaining"; I often wonder where one draws the lines
> between "complaints", positive criticism and negative criticism.

I'd venture that filing a bug report is useful and productive, but 
waging a social media campaign about every annoyance with posts here, 
to the forums, and one or more social media networks less so.

And infinitely less so if such a campaign doesn't also eventually 
include a bug report.

Maybe better to just write the bug report.

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-14 Thread Earthednet-wp

Is the glass half empty, or half full? Life seems to be much happier for those 
focus their assessment on the half full part. In Livecode's case it seems to be 
98% (or higher) full. But then we still can't forget about the last 2%, while 
still honoring the 98%. Anybody who has worked with Adobe Director is aware of 
the enormous contrast between Adobe's way of doing things and Livecode's. 

Just my 2 cents.

>From my reading of these postings over the year, I observe that the best 
>approach from the community is to cheer on the team for their successes while 
>giving them the feedback they need to fix what remains. i also note that there 
>will always be things that remain to be fixed or added.

Best,
Bill 



William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On May 14, 2016, at 9:03 AM, Ralph DiMola  wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe better to just write the bug report.
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
> 
> Amen.
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> 
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-14 Thread Ralph DiMola


Maybe better to just write the bug report.
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems

Amen.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-14 Thread Richard Gaskin

RM wrote:

> AND, as to "complaining"; I often wonder where one draws the lines
> between "complaints", positive criticism and negative criticism.

I'd venture that filing a bug report is useful and productive, but 
waging a social media campaign about every annoyance with posts here, to 
the forums, and one or more social media networks less so.

And infinitely less so if such a campaign doesn't also eventually 
include a bug report.

Maybe better to just write the bug report.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-14 Thread Erik Beugelaar


Some math of me ;-)

(define infinite_liveCode (lambda(livecode_members)
(lambda(pledge) (* livecode_members pledge))
   ))


Fill in the parameters above by yourself and RunRev is not asking this time too 
much to accomplish this:

– You’ll be able to wrap complex C libraries on any platform. (You can access C 
in Builder today however the syntax for doing it is fairly basic.)
– You’ll be able to access Java libraries on Android and Objective-C on iOS & 
Mac OS
– We’ll complete the set of features for working with each of these languages 
to make it easy for you to work with them all.
– We’ll extend the basic Widget Building Course. Together we will build a new 
native field object for iOS and Android with a full set of lessons, Google 
hangouts and source code. That will form a template that you can use to wrap 
any other native platform control.
– We’ll do the same and build together a new wrapper around SQLite, again on 
all platforms.
– And finally, we’ll wrap the audio recording APIs on all platforms in the same 
way. All of this will be documented and reusable.


If everybody who is reading this list pledging approx 50 bucks will bring us 
all more ways to extend the LiveCode platform which is already a long story 
(esp. regarding to the Android missing external SDK) which now can be stopped 
(I hope).



Kind regards,
Erik 





Sent from solidit    






On 14/05/16 11:01, "use-livecode on behalf of RM" 
 wrote:

>
>
>On 14.05.2016 11:40, Monte Goulding wrote:
>> I'm not overly fond of the direction this conversation is going. Us v them 
>> is unproductive and there are many benefits to the platform for going open 
>> source.
>>
>>> AND, as to "complaining"; I often wonder where one draws the lines between 
>>> "complaints"
>>> positive criticism and negative criticism.
>> I would draw the line on complaints v positive criticism at whether it is a 
>> well written bug report. It's not hard to work out why it is less 
>> constructive to raise issues elsewhere. Negative criticism would be things 
>> like unnecessary negative statements about new versions of the platform on 
>> your Facebook page about learning it...
>
>If that "jibe" is directed at me you might like to reflect on the nature 
>and the target audience of my Facebook page:
>
>https://www.facebook.com/RMLCclasses/?fref=nf
>
>This is a support page for the classes I teach every summer to to 
>children between 8/9 and 16 who have
>NO experience of programming at all.
>
>It is also being followed by approx. 15 kids (that's the number who have 
>reverted to me so I am aware of them)
>  outwith Bulgaria who are using those examples offered there to learn 
>Livecode themselves.
>
>The comment to which you no doubt refer: "While Livecode is supposedly 
>"Stable" it is really NOT ready for use, so best left alone at present."
>
>is only there because I am well aware that children getting ready to 
>attend my classes this summer will go to the download page and see
>Livecode 8. Should they download Livecode 8 they will be faced with 
>something that is far more complex than Livecode 7. It is not suitable
>for the Summer classes I shall be teaching this summer, both because of 
>the complexity I referred to, and the fact that it is not as stable as 
>Livecode 7.
>
>This is NOT negative criticism, this is a message tailored for a certain 
>audience.
>
>I will consider, next year, should I conduct summer programming classes 
>then, introducing children to Livecode 8 on the last class
>of their course.
>
>Teaching people how to drive a articulated lorry with a gear stick that 
>coupled with a splitter allows one 16 gears is daft if they, first,
>haven't learnt how to drive a salon car. Especially if the artic. lorry 
>has a small problem with some of its synchro-mesh.
>
>That is NOT a negative criticism, it is a statement of informed opinion.
>
>Here's an example of negative criticism: "The heads-up display in the 
>Toyota Sprongo is useless."
>
>It is negative both because it uses a word that stops one dead in one's 
>tracks, and offers no suggestions as to how one might
>sort that problem out.
>
>"Not ready for use" leaves the door open, that, in time, the thing will 
>be ready for use.
>
>One thing that you may be unaware of is that I am an educator with many 
>years experience of working with children, and
>while I may be capable of all sorts of clever things, that is probably 
>because at the age of 54 and buckets of study I have built
>up a body of knowledge which the average 10 year old does not possess. 
>So I cut my coat to suit those children on that Facebook page.
>
>Best, Richmond.
>>
>> Monte
>>
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>>

Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO




On 14.05.2016 11:40, Monte Goulding wrote:

I'm not overly fond of the direction this conversation is going. Us v them is 
unproductive and there are many benefits to the platform for going open source.


AND, as to "complaining"; I often wonder where one draws the lines between 
"complaints"
positive criticism and negative criticism.

I would draw the line on complaints v positive criticism at whether it is a 
well written bug report. It's not hard to work out why it is less constructive 
to raise issues elsewhere. Negative criticism would be things like unnecessary 
negative statements about new versions of the platform on your Facebook page 
about learning it...


If that "jibe" is directed at me you might like to reflect on the nature 
and the target audience of my Facebook page:


https://www.facebook.com/RMLCclasses/?fref=nf

This is a support page for the classes I teach every summer to to 
children between 8/9 and 16 who have

NO experience of programming at all.

It is also being followed by approx. 15 kids (that's the number who have 
reverted to me so I am aware of them)
 outwith Bulgaria who are using those examples offered there to learn 
Livecode themselves.


The comment to which you no doubt refer: "While Livecode is supposedly 
"Stable" it is really NOT ready for use, so best left alone at present."


is only there because I am well aware that children getting ready to 
attend my classes this summer will go to the download page and see
Livecode 8. Should they download Livecode 8 they will be faced with 
something that is far more complex than Livecode 7. It is not suitable
for the Summer classes I shall be teaching this summer, both because of 
the complexity I referred to, and the fact that it is not as stable as 
Livecode 7.


This is NOT negative criticism, this is a message tailored for a certain 
audience.


I will consider, next year, should I conduct summer programming classes 
then, introducing children to Livecode 8 on the last class

of their course.

Teaching people how to drive a articulated lorry with a gear stick that 
coupled with a splitter allows one 16 gears is daft if they, first,
haven't learnt how to drive a salon car. Especially if the artic. lorry 
has a small problem with some of its synchro-mesh.


That is NOT a negative criticism, it is a statement of informed opinion.

Here's an example of negative criticism: "The heads-up display in the 
Toyota Sprongo is useless."


It is negative both because it uses a word that stops one dead in one's 
tracks, and offers no suggestions as to how one might

sort that problem out.

"Not ready for use" leaves the door open, that, in time, the thing will 
be ready for use.


One thing that you may be unaware of is that I am an educator with many 
years experience of working with children, and
while I may be capable of all sorts of clever things, that is probably 
because at the age of 54 and buckets of study I have built
up a body of knowledge which the average 10 year old does not possess. 
So I cut my coat to suit those children on that Facebook page.


Best, Richmond.


Monte

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-14 Thread Monte Goulding

I'm not overly fond of the direction this conversation is going. Us v them is 
unproductive and there are many benefits to the platform for going open source.

> AND, as to "complaining"; I often wonder where one draws the lines between 
> "complaints"
> positive criticism and negative criticism.

I would draw the line on complaints v positive criticism at whether it is a 
well written bug report. It's not hard to work out why it is less constructive 
to raise issues elsewhere. Negative criticism would be things like unnecessary 
negative statements about new versions of the platform on your Facebook page 
about learning it...

Monte

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO




On 14.05.2016 02:06, Bob Sneidar wrote:

On May 13, 2016, at 16:05 , Bob Sneidar  wrote:

Well you know, there are lies... and then there are damnable lies... and then 
there are detestably damnable lies...

And then there are statistics!

(roughly a quote of Mark Twain)


Who I just discovered got it from British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli.

Bob S


Benjamin Disraeli would know, being extremely good at dressing a wide 
variety of things

up as the truth, and playing both ends off against the middle.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3760

While seducing Queen Victoria (the Hanoverian incumbent) with his novels 
and parlour talk, he
was also in contact with King Victor (the Jacobite claimant) in Sardinia 
in case Victoria didn't

bend enough to his wishes.

While Mark Twain might have been a bit blunt, at least nobody could ever 
accuse him

of being a slithery sh*t.

Richmond.


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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO




On 14.05.2016 00:17, J. Landman Gay wrote:

On 5/13/2016 2:02 PM, Paul Dupuis wrote:

My first gut reaction was "So, I and the other 24% minority of people
paying for licenses are funding an awesome development tool that some
76% of you folks out there are using for free. 


What follows does not consist of gut reactions.


People who only use
Community and grip should be sending the 24% of us who pay thank you 
cards!"


I had the same reaction. It is, to my mind, the height of chutzpah to 
complain about things one receives for free.


"Free" is a bit of a slithery word as it seems to mean quite a few 
different things.


I stumped up my "widow's mite" for the Kickstarter; had I had more funds 
I would have stumped up more.


So, whether I am receiving things for "Free" is a bit of a moot point 
[admittedly one that is a waste of time discussing].


I wish people would stop banging on about the word "Free" just because 
it is such a vague word.


AND, as to "complaining"; I often wonder where one draws the lines 
between "complaints", positive criticism and negative criticism.


The problem there is either "all in the mind" or "all in the mouth".

Paul Dupois wrote:


However, that gut reaction in no way takes into account the "gift in
kind" contributions of people using only the Community license in
(a) contributions to the source code
(b) time spend on submitting quality bug reports
(c) time spend on helping others with useful advice on the forums
or email lists, and
(d) many, many, other similar contributions of time.


I know many people who do at least three of these four items. ALL of
them, inclusive me, have at least an Indy license and are backing each
and every campaign.

Of course he is wrong in stating that ALL of them have at least an Indy 
licence.


I'm "guilty" of (b), (c) and a very small bit of (d) and the only 
licences I "own" (whatever that means in this context)
are a licence to DreamCard 2.6, one to Livecode Studio 4.0 and Livecode 
Enterprise 4.5 (and the last one was, very

generously given to me by Livecode).

I don't believe I'm the only one who owns no "contemporary" licences who 
submits bug reports, or helps people with

advice of varying levels of helpfulness on the forums or email lists.

That does NOT mean I feel I am entitled to either an Indy or a 
Full-Monty licence, as I am well aware that

Livecode DO need the money people pay for those licences.

It is a delusion to think that a contribution to a kickstarter 3 years 
ago is still funding current development.


I am not so daft as to think that money most of us stumped up for the 
Kickstarter is funding current development; and I very much doubt

if anybody else is that daft either.

The problem lies in this:

When people were offered the chance to stump up money for the 
Kickstarter they were presented a whole list of things (followed by a list
of "stretch goals") which they were assured would be financed by the 
Kickstarter, but have not been completed yet.


Now it might be that many of us who stumped up money for the Kickstarter 
are/were naive in believing that those things would be financed by the 
Kickstarter,


it might be that Livecode/RunRev were naive in thinking that those 
things would be financed by the Kickstarter.


There is, however, a difference between the consequences of the funders' 
naivety and Livecode/RunRev's naivety: in the latter case
there should be some sort of apology, instead we are faced with further 
requests/demands for money.


Now if one promises goods and/or services for money and does not deliver 
it might be a bit naive (oops, there's that word again) to expect those
people who stumped up money for things that were then not delivered as 
promised to stump up further funds.




The team needs a steady source of income to continue development into 
the future. 


I wouldn't doubt it for a moment.

But as it has undertaken to deliver  for  and hasn't, it may 
have to consider raising funds in a completely different way than going 
back,

cap-in-hand, to the initial funders.

If only 1/4 of the user base is paying for that then development will 
slow or founder. I am amazed and grateful for the work the team has 
done on such slim resources provided by only a fraction of the user base. 


It may be instructive to have a look at how companies such as Canonical 
(the company behind Ubuntu) finances itself: there maybe the odd
donation here and there, but their main sources of income are from other 
places and means.



They should be receiving accolades.



Indeed, I believe they would be receiving far more accolades if they 
were not releasing things they termed "Stable" which still contained

quite important bugs.

Livecode/RunRev should stop feeling pressure (if they do) to release GM 
versions. I really don't see what would have been wrong with
Livecode 8.0 going through 50 developer previews if that is what it took 
to get a really smashing release that attracted

Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Tore Nilsen

I thought they both got it from Agnes

Tore


> 14. mai 2016 kl. 01.06 skrev Bob Sneidar :
> 
> 
>> On May 13, 2016, at 16:05 , Bob Sneidar  wrote:
>> 
>> Well you know, there are lies... and then there are damnable lies... and 
>> then there are detestably damnable lies...
>> 
>> And then there are statistics!
>> 
>> (roughly a quote of Mark Twain)
>> 
> 
> Who I just discovered got it from British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli.
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

Sorry for the quoting mess. Apple Mail it seems cannot discern the quote level 
when I type AFTER the quoted text. 

Bob S


> On May 13, 2016, at 16:11 , Bob Sneidar  wrote:
> 
> 
> On May 13, 2016, at 14:17 , J. Landman Gay 
> > wrote:
> 
> On 5/13/2016 2:02 PM, Paul Dupuis wrote:
> My first gut reaction was "So, I and the other 24% minority of people
> paying for licenses are funding an awesome development tool that some
> 76% of you folks out there are using for free. People who only use
> Community and grip should be sending the 24% of us who pay thank you cards!"
> 
> I had the same reaction. It is, to my mind, the height of chutzpah to 
> complain about things one receives for free. It is a delusion to think that a 
> contribution to a kickstarter 3 years ago is still funding current 
> development.
> 
> Frankly, when the kickstarter was announced, I didn't think they were 
> shooting high enough. I'm amazed it got done, which is why I bought my indy 
> license. If RunRev ever goes down, I will be one sick and depressed puppy for 
> about 6 months. My last and best hope for continued software development is 
> Livecode. If I have to go to Java or C, I think I will travel to Alaska and 
> try and make friends with a grizzly instead.
> 
> That being said, I am paying for it with my own money so I can create apps 
> that help me in my work environment. While that benifits me, there certainly 
> is no "return on investment" to speak of, other than the fact that the guy 
> who snickered when I told him I was going to write an app that auto filled 
> PDF forms is no longer snickering. :-)
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO


On May 13, 2016, at 14:17 , J. Landman Gay 
> wrote:

On 5/13/2016 2:02 PM, Paul Dupuis wrote:
My first gut reaction was "So, I and the other 24% minority of people
paying for licenses are funding an awesome development tool that some
76% of you folks out there are using for free. People who only use
Community and grip should be sending the 24% of us who pay thank you cards!"

I had the same reaction. It is, to my mind, the height of chutzpah to complain 
about things one receives for free. It is a delusion to think that a 
contribution to a kickstarter 3 years ago is still funding current development.

Frankly, when the kickstarter was announced, I didn't think they were shooting 
high enough. I'm amazed it got done, which is why I bought my indy license. If 
RunRev ever goes down, I will be one sick and depressed puppy for about 6 
months. My last and best hope for continued software development is Livecode. 
If I have to go to Java or C, I think I will travel to Alaska and try and make 
friends with a grizzly instead.

That being said, I am paying for it with my own money so I can create apps that 
help me in my work environment. While that benifits me, there certainly is no 
"return on investment" to speak of, other than the fact that the guy who 
snickered when I told him I was going to write an app that auto filled PDF 
forms is no longer snickering. :-)

Bob S


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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO


> On May 13, 2016, at 16:05 , Bob Sneidar  wrote:
> 
> Well you know, there are lies... and then there are damnable lies... and then 
> there are detestably damnable lies...
> 
> And then there are statistics!
> 
> (roughly a quote of Mark Twain)
> 

Who I just discovered got it from British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli.

Bob S


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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

Well you know, there are lies... and then there are damnable lies... and then 
there are detestably damnable lies...

And then there are statistics!

(roughly a quote of Mark Twain)

Bob S


On May 13, 2016, at 12:58 , Peter M. Brigham 
> wrote:

On May 13, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis wrote:

It is *always* worth noting that statistics can be unintentionally
misleading, take out of context, and intentionally misinterpreted.

42.7% of statistics are made up on the spot.

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
pmb...@gmail.com

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Kevin Miller

Hi Rick,

1. Sometimes the data is blind, sometimes it is not. When analyzing the
survey for most purposes we strip out any identifying data so this is
irrelevant to the person doing the analysis.

2. Sometimes we indicate the number of questions and sometimes we do not.
It depends on what the survey is for, who it is going to and how it has
been designed.

3. Some surveys do things like that depending on what the user answers,
most do not. Sometimes this is the right approach if we are fairly sure we
want to go in a particular direction for some other reason and want to pin
down some specifics. Other times we do large independent surveys entirely
separate from this sort of analysis. You will get different surveys
depending on your demographics within our user base. And we do sample
widely enough to get representative results.

Rick just so you know my dad, Dr Miller used to play a major role in
organizing the EU young people drug and alcohol survey for the UK. He
regularly provided support to students learning how to design surveys so
as to avoid bias and how to apply statistics to survey analysis. My mum,
also Dr Miller, used to lecture in experimental design at university
level. I have also had the pleasure and privilege of working with CEOs and
product managers of far larger organizations than ours and been able to
discuss at length our survey strategy with them. While there is always
room for improvement, I am extremely confident the for the most part we
get good data, ask good questions and make better decisions as a result of
these surveys.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

On 13/05/2016, 22:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Rick Harrison"
 wrote:

>Hi Richard,
>
>These surveys could be a lot better than they are.
>
>1.  The data collected is not blind.  It is traceable to the
> participant who filled out the survey.
>
>2.  The questions are not all available at once so that one
> can decide if they want to participate or not.  The
> participant has no idea how many questions there are,
> what the questions are that will be asked, or how much time
> he/she will have to devote to answering the questions.
>
>3.  The survey when it asks questions like: Would you like
> to see project XYZ implemented?, then almost immediately
> asks: If so, how much money would you be willing to
> pledge to this project right now?  This seems more like
> an attempt to bully people out of their money, rather than
> an attempt to collect some blind data about support for a project.
>
>The approach for money should take place separately from the
>survey which should be blind only data collected.
>
>I think a lot of people in our community have caught onto this unfair
>approach, and may have given up on responding to such surveys.
>Consequently, LiveCode Ltd., isn¹t getting enough data to make
>correct assessments with their surveys.
>
>Just my 2 cents. :-|
>
>Rick
>
>
>> On May 13, 2016, at 12:36 PM, Richard Gaskin 
>>wrote:
>> 
>> To help turn myriad list posts into actionable information, LiveCode
>>conducts several surveys of the user base each year...
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread stephen barncard

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:35 AM, Dave Kilroy 
wrote:

> My regards to all who have pledged or who intend to pledge, no matter how
> little or how much - and I'll see you on the sunny side of the street some
> day!
>
> Kind regards
>
> Dave
>

Just pledged. I'm in.

sqb

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread J. Landman Gay


On 5/13/2016 2:02 PM, Paul Dupuis wrote:

My first gut reaction was "So, I and the other 24% minority of people
paying for licenses are funding an awesome development tool that some
76% of you folks out there are using for free. People who only use
Community and grip should be sending the 24% of us who pay thank you cards!"


I had the same reaction. It is, to my mind, the height of chutzpah to 
complain about things one receives for free. It is a delusion to think 
that a contribution to a kickstarter 3 years ago is still funding 
current development.


The team needs a steady source of income to continue development into 
the future. If only 1/4 of the user base is paying for that then 
development will slow or founder. I am amazed and grateful for the work 
the team has done on such slim resources provided by only a fraction of 
the user base. They should be receiving accolades.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Rick Harrison

Hi Richard,

These surveys could be a lot better than they are.

1.  The data collected is not blind.  It is traceable to the
 participant who filled out the survey.

2.  The questions are not all available at once so that one
 can decide if they want to participate or not.  The 
 participant has no idea how many questions there are, 
 what the questions are that will be asked, or how much time
 he/she will have to devote to answering the questions.

3.  The survey when it asks questions like: Would you like
 to see project XYZ implemented?, then almost immediately
 asks: If so, how much money would you be willing to
 pledge to this project right now?  This seems more like
 an attempt to bully people out of their money, rather than
 an attempt to collect some blind data about support for a project.

The approach for money should take place separately from the
survey which should be blind only data collected.

I think a lot of people in our community have caught onto this unfair 
approach, and may have given up on responding to such surveys.
Consequently, LiveCode Ltd., isn’t getting enough data to make
correct assessments with their surveys.

Just my 2 cents. :-|

Rick

> On May 13, 2016, at 12:36 PM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> To help turn myriad list posts into actionable information, LiveCode conducts 
> several surveys of the user base each year...
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread [-hh]

Paul Dupois wrote:
> However, that gut reaction in no way takes into account the "gift in
> kind" contributions of people using only the Community license in
> (a) contributions to the source code
> (b) time spend on submitting quality bug reports
> (c) time spend on helping others with useful advice on the forums
> or email lists, and
> (d) many, many, other similar contributions of time.

I know many people who do at least three of these four items. ALL of
them, inclusive me, have at least an Indy license and are backing each
and every campaign.
This is independent of license holding. Community is for me everybody
outside the LC team.

I see it like this (leaving bussiness uses apart).
Most of Indy users (like me) don't really need or use the license.
They have one, because they can afford one  and are willing to help by
that the thing going on, for all. Of course I use also community-only
LC versions (for example for the RaspbianPi).
Who can't afford it, should have a license-light (real license) for free or
a rather symbolic price.

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Peter M. Brigham

On May 13, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis wrote:

> It is *always* worth noting that statistics can be unintentionally
> misleading, take out of context, and intentionally misinterpreted.

42.7% of statistics are made up on the spot.

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
pmb...@gmail.com


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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Matthias Rebbe



> 
> However, if you are getting something for free AND you are not
> contributing anything at all (time and/or money), stop complaining ;-)
> 

I also thought so. But I did not dare to write it myself. ;)

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Paul Dupuis

It is *always* worth noting that statistics can be unintentionally
misleading, take out of context, and intentionally misinterpreted.

I saw the statistic in the LiveCode 8 Launch webinar that 24% of
LiveCode licenses are paid and 76% are Community (open source) licenses.

My first gut reaction was "So, I and the other 24% minority of people
paying for licenses are funding an awesome development tool that some
76% of you folks out there are using for free. People who only use
Community and grip should be sending the 24% of us who pay thank you cards!"

However, that gut reaction in no way takes into account the "gift in
kind" contributions of people using only the Community license in (a)
contributions to the source code; (b) time spend on submitting quality
bug reports; (c) time spend on helping others with useful advice on the
forums or email lists; and (d) many, many, other similar contributions
of time.

However, if you are getting something for free AND you are not
contributing anything at all (time and/or money), stop complaining ;-)

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Kevin Miller

These are valid points. I covered a great deal of ground in that
presentation however this was an angle that I missed. I certainly didn¹t
intend any offense with that omission and if I gave any then I do
apologize for that. We are all extremely grateful for the many ways the
community contributes.

I¹m also pleased to see a number of new contributions this week which is
wonderful.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 13/05/2016, 17:52, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin"

wrote:

>-hh wrote:
>
> > I can't forget this community-trivializing pie chart
> > "The Story of community"(see webinar at 6:37), based on
> > pull requests: 2% community, 98% LiveCode (ignoring
> > the fact that many pull requests of the LC-team are
> > essentially based on time-consuming community LC QC
> > reports).
>
>Pull requests are a seductive focus for measuring community engagement
>because the stats are automatically provided by Github.
>
>But I agree that it's a mistake for any project to measure by that
>single index, as so many do.
>
>In addition to bug reporting and triage, there are also many other
>categories where the community plays a strong supporting role for the
>project.
>
>A few days ago I listed some of the outstanding work being done by so
>many educators in our community to introduce LiveCode to teachers and
>students around the world, and in areas like community technical support
>we see Bernd and Klaus and yourself making very significant
>contributions throughout the forums to help newcomers feel more
>empowered as they learn LiveCode.
>
>One of the reasons I advocated using the livecode.org domain exclusively
>for the Community Edition is so that we can do a better job of providing
>acknowledgment for the full scope of community contributions.
>
>If you have any thoughts on how we might track those better I would be
>keen to hear them.  Unlike pull requests, which are tallied
>automatically for us, other forms of community contributions are more
>difficult to track, often relying on subjective assessment (and without
>sufficient coffee too easy to forget something important).
>
>Any ideas you or others here have for better assessing and acknowledging
>community contributions would be very welcome.
>
>-- 
>  Richard Gaskin
>  LiveCode Community Liaison
>  rich...@livecode.org
>
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Richard Gaskin

-hh wrote:

> I can't forget this community-trivializing pie chart
> "The Story of community"(see webinar at 6:37), based on
> pull requests: 2% community, 98% LiveCode (ignoring
> the fact that many pull requests of the LC-team are
> essentially based on time-consuming community LC QC
> reports).

Pull requests are a seductive focus for measuring community engagement 
because the stats are automatically provided by Github.

But I agree that it's a mistake for any project to measure by that 
single index, as so many do.

In addition to bug reporting and triage, there are also many other 
categories where the community plays a strong supporting role for the 
project.

A few days ago I listed some of the outstanding work being done by so 
many educators in our community to introduce LiveCode to teachers and 
students around the world, and in areas like community technical support 
we see Bernd and Klaus and yourself making very significant 
contributions throughout the forums to help newcomers feel more 
empowered as they learn LiveCode.

One of the reasons I advocated using the livecode.org domain exclusively 
for the Community Edition is so that we can do a better job of providing 
acknowledgment for the full scope of community contributions.

If you have any thoughts on how we might track those better I would be 
keen to hear them.  Unlike pull requests, which are tallied 
automatically for us, other forms of community contributions are more 
difficult to track, often relying on subjective assessment (and without 
sufficient coffee too easy to forget something important).

Any ideas you or others here have for better assessing and acknowledging 
community contributions would be very welcome.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Liaison
 rich...@livecode.org

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Richard Gaskin

Robert Mann wrote:

> As the situation stands, livecode drives the whole lot. So community
> money contributors just support "blindly" livecode without any form
> of representation. I wonder how long that can go on just like that.

Part of the role of a Community Manager is as a sort of ombudsman, an 
advocate for community interests in discussions with the core dev team. 
 Ask Peter or Kevin and they'll tell you that much of our regular 
meetings involve my advocacy for community interests.

One of the challenges is determining exactly what those community 
interests are.  This thread is a good example:  first there was a 
request for SFTP, the SMTP, then audio recording, and others.

To help turn myriad list posts into actionable information, LiveCode 
conducts several surveys of the user base each year.  But of course 
surveys are very limited in more ways than are worth listing here, so 
data collected there is augmented with many discussions both internal 
and with your Community advocate to help sort them out into priorities.

As with any software project, priorities are best served by attempting 
to gauge return on investment.  For example, if we have a hundreds posts 
for a feature but those posts are from a single user, even a feature 
less frequently discussed may take priority if it's determined to 
benefit a larger number of users.

Those priorities are also weighed against cost of delivery.  While we do 
occasionally see requests specific to one platform, most requests cover 
multiple platforms.  As we can see from the very small number of 
high-level scripting languages that offer integrated GUI support across 
seven platforms, this is evidently not a trivial task; few projects even 
attempt it at all.

Most of the Kickstarter goals have been delivered, the rest actively in 
development, and the Feature Exchange items have been in direct response 
to user requests.  In each case, participation in the fundraiser has 
always been completely optional for us - if we see something we like we 
can fund it, and even if we don't the Community Edition has and will 
continue to benefit from those, and everyone, contributor or not, has 
free and open access to it.

If there's a specific feature you had in mind, let's talk about it.  If 
a positive ROI for it can be determined it'll likely get done.

Many larger projects enjoy something we don't yet have:  outside 
companies paying full-time salaries for developers contributing to the 
software.  For example, Google and others pay several staffers to 
contribute to Python, and a friend at Heroku told me last night that he 
has a couple excellent engineers whose full-time job is submit pull 
requests for postgreSQL.

As the LiveCode projects grows we're seeing a bit of that, even if at a 
smaller scale than full-time staffers.  For example, David Simpson of 
.Com Solutions needed some specific clipboard enhancements, so he 
contacted the team, got a quote he found reasonable, and covered the 
development cost.  Those enhancements are now in all LiveCode editions, 
including the Community Edition (thank you David!).

What we all want to avoid is being another TideSDK.  That was an open 
source project where Appcellerator spun out their desktop platforms so 
they could focus their considerable investment on just two (iOS and 
Android).  The desktop project deployed to Mac, Windows, and Linux, and 
was released under permissive license so it was fully dependent on 
donations alone.  A couple years ago one of their blog posts noted that 
they'd received less than $600 in donations for the entirety of that 
year.  The project has since died for lack of funding.

The mix of development options LiveCode has offered to date represent 
their best effort at measuring community interest balanced with ROI.

But like any process, there's always room for refinement.

So like I said, if there's a specific feature you want let's discuss it 
and see how we can put together the resources to make it happen.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Liaison
 rich...@livecode.org

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread James Little


Count me in also.  I’m particularly keen on Stretch Goals 1 & 3, Sqlite Library 
& Field Widget

Jim Little



On May 13, 2016, at 8:38 AM, Earthednet-wp  wrote:

> I'm in too. I am retired and give my educational software away for free. But 
> the responsiveness of the LC team, the generosity of the users with help, and 
> the actuality and future vision of the platform is so promising that I want 
> to contribute.
> Best,
> Bill
> 
> William Prothero
> http://es.earthednet.org
> 
>> On May 13, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Bob Sneidar  wrote:
>> 
>> I'm in. I ain't rich but I can do what I can. 
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Earthednet-wp

I'm in too. I am retired and give my educational software away for free. But 
the responsiveness of the LC team, the generosity of the users with help, and 
the actuality and future vision of the platform is so promising that I want to 
contribute.
Best,
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On May 13, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Bob Sneidar  wrote:
> 
> I'm in. I ain't rich but I can do what I can. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

I'm in. I ain't rich but I can do what I can. 

Bob S



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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread [-hh]

Now having a first dot-dot-release of 8, we don't look
back to unfinished work, because "we are post 8" (Kevin).
And post 8.0.0 starts infinity?

Let's look back a few days.
I can't forget this community-trivializing pie chart
"The Story of community"(see webinar at 6:37), based on
pull requests: 2% community, 98% LiveCode (ignoring
the fact that many pull requests of the LC-team are
essentially based on time-consuming community LC QC
reports).

The two cents of the community?
So, if everybody of the community contributes 2% of
his worktime (1 hour a week) to The Big LC Project,
then we are done.
The 2% (if not two cents) contributions of my worktime
to The Big LC Project are already done for years.

Stop it now? No, I do finish my work. What's not
finished doesn't count to being "post ".
But after finishing these few projects I'll stop.
I'll wait and watch was LC does on his 98% part.

I asked that at the webinar: "What's the state of
the foreign module?" (No answer, there were too much
questions).

After that I was trying for a whole day to get the
state of FFI, looking for anything that works on
*ALL* platforms, a simple 'Hello world'. No success.

Of course I pledged, as always. For a "new"(?)
feature especially: FFI.

Searched again for the state of FFI: Seen apart from
excellent fragments (excellent, but fragments) from
Peter-B's private blog: Nothing found.

I'll finish my current community projects.
Then I'll wait and watch was LC does on his 98% part.

Hermann

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Roland Huettmann

Well, yes, but then it could have been announced three months ago?))) Never
mind... The task is great. Thumbs up!
On May 13, 2016 09:24, "Alex Tweedly"  wrote:

> I agree it is a rather short time frame - but 3 months would be far too
> long.
>
> This project hopes to complete "this summer" - so my guess would be end of
> August or September - therefore only 4-1/2 months away; they can't wait 3
> months to see if the funding is available.
>
> -- Alex.
>
> On 13/05/2016 10:10, Roland Huettmann wrote:
>
>> I pledged, but the dates given are by far too short - May 23 is just
>> around
>> the corner. I could pledge more given more time, but currently away on a
>> trip. I think 3 months pledge time should be normal.
>>
>> Roland
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Matt Maier

In terms of what we should expect, does this push indicate a "breadth
first" rather than "depth first" strategy? As in, will Livecode's reach
continue to expand as quickly as possible while it's perfection is of
secondary concern? More specifically, will we be getting 80% functionality
in more places rather than 100% functionality in one place?

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Alex Tweedly  wrote:

> I agree it is a rather short time frame - but 3 months would be far too
> long.
>
> This project hopes to complete "this summer" - so my guess would be end of
> August or September - therefore only 4-1/2 months away; they can't wait 3
> months to see if the funding is available.
>
> -- Alex.
>
>
> On 13/05/2016 10:10, Roland Huettmann wrote:
>
>> I pledged, but the dates given are by far too short - May 23 is just
>> around
>> the corner. I could pledge more given more time, but currently away on a
>> trip. I think 3 months pledge time should be normal.
>>
>> Roland
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Alex Tweedly

I agree it is a rather short time frame - but 3 months would be far too 
long.


This project hopes to complete "this summer" - so my guess would be end 
of August or September - therefore only 4-1/2 months away; they can't 
wait 3 months to see if the funding is available.


-- Alex.

On 13/05/2016 10:10, Roland Huettmann wrote:

I pledged, but the dates given are by far too short - May 23 is just around
the corner. I could pledge more given more time, but currently away on a
trip. I think 3 months pledge time should be normal.

Roland
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Kevin Miller

Thanks very much for your support Roland.

I¹m sorry if the campaign timing doesn¹t line up well for you. We¹ve tried
various campaign lengths and longer doesn¹t materially improve the outcome
overall. If it was a massive campaign we might consider 30 days but its
not so large that there is a benefit to doing that. Now we are post 8 we
need to plan with certainty what our path is as quickly as possible. And
bear in mind that if this campaign funds this feature will be with you in
around 3 months, rather than coming to the end of a campaign then!

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

On 13/05/2016, 10:10, "use-livecode on behalf of Roland Huettmann"
 wrote:

>I pledged, but the dates given are by far too short - May 23 is just
>around
>the corner. I could pledge more given more time, but currently away on a
>trip. I think 3 months pledge time should be normal.
>
>Roland
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Roland Huettmann

I pledged, but the dates given are by far too short - May 23 is just around
the corner. I could pledge more given more time, but currently away on a
trip. I think 3 months pledge time should be normal.

Roland
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Heather Laine

Dear Robert,

You make a good point about community involvement. This campaign is all about 
encouraging much more of it. We want to enable a far wider community of 
LiveCoders to contribute to the feature set of LiveCode. Our little team cannot 
do it all. 

We have recently set up livecode.org, and we already have a Community Manager 
in Richard Gaskin, whom we talk regularly with. He is entirely independent from 
LiveCode Ltd. This is a route we will be looking to expand in the future, 
ultimately its possible there will be some kind of Open Source Advisory body 
outside of LiveCode Ltd. We would love to see more in the way of actual hands 
on involvement from the community to allow a wide enough pool of contributors 
that could be selected from for such a body. 

This is something of a chicken and egg situation. To have a strong vibrant Open 
Source community making regular contributions to the source, we need to give 
you the tools to easily contribute. Infinite LiveCode is all about doing 
exactly that. 

So, I would suggest, the logical conclusion is, if you want to see a strong 
Open Source community with real clout, lets get this campaign funded!

Warm Regards,

Heather

> On 12 May 2016, at 22:40, Robert Mann  wrote:
> 
> Same thought from France! and approximatively same wait period of more than
> 10 years for audio recording at 44100 kHz compressed audio. 
> 
> Now I suspect one point of view would be be :: "well that is precisely what
> we want to clear.. by allowing faster wrapping of existing utilities.. we
> need the infinitum to complete the audio functions!! "
> 
> Now, i was not aware that the 2013 kickstart only brought 30% of the cost
> needed to get livecode 8 through. I thought it would be more 50%.
> 
> And I earlier said I would be happy to participate regularly to the
> development.. but.. but.. for a more reasonable priced indy "hobbits"
> version, and I wrote ok if that cost 150 bucks every now and then.
> 
> it is arguable that I could then decide to pour through 75$ more into the
> community version instead. (and so on...) But then frankly, I feel the need
> for some kind of community guidance body to accompany mothership.
> 
> As the situation stands, livecode drives the whole lot. So community money
> contributors just support "blindly" livecode without any form of
> representation. I wonder how long that can go on just like that. 
> 
> That is by no means a message of distrust vis a vis CEO, I have great
> respect for what they're up to. I just wonder how viable that form of
> "trust" organization is viable. And frankly i'd be curious to learn about
> how other communities get organized in such a situation.
> 
> As Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami points out, there will always be some tensions
> between the two versions. And the resulting balance of functions might never
> seen as right so long as decisions are solely taken by one party
> exclusively.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Infinite-LiveCode-Message-from-CEO-tp4704550p4704570.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Matt Maier

I just pledged. Both sides of the conversation make sense, and obviously I
ended up on the "pledge" side of it. Getting the widgets and LCB working to
"wrap" several more popular languages will dramatically increase the
utility of everything we already know how to do in Livecode. That's the
main value proposition for me. I only have to learn one (one and a half
now?) language and I can make things happen on all the major operating
systems, the server, soon in browsers. Being able to grab existing code
from, and collaborate with, everyone who doesn't know Livecode will be
fantastic.

Also, I'm approaching the pledge from the perspective of starting my own
company. The way Livecode is going about it is more or less the same way
I'd prefer to go about it. I'd prefer to have a direct relationship where I
solve someone's problem and they pay me for it, willingly, because I'm
actually solving their problem. I also would prefer to tackle big, hairy,
audacious goals. I also expect that I'll be better at working in the
laboratory than doing marketing. Basically, all the stuff Livecode is
doing. They're tackling a big problem, which is addressing a major pain
point for me, so I'm happy to support them.

Big projects always end up taking longer and costing more than hoped. I
don't want them to run out of money before they finish grinding through it.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Dave Kilroy 
wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I agree with Sannyasin about positivity and this being a thread about
> supporting the development of LiveCode
>
> I also am 'all in' and have just pledged at
> https://livecode.com/project/infinite-livecode/
>
> My regards to all who have pledged or who intend to pledge, no matter how
> little or how much - and I'll see you on the sunny side of the street some
> day!
>
> Kind regards
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote
> > On 5/12/16, 2:03 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola" 
>
> > use-livecode-bounces@.runrev
>
> >  on behalf of
>
> > rdimola@
>
> >  wrote:
> >
> >>The LC upside WAY outweighs the downside. I'm all in!
> >>At least that's how I feel.
> >
> > I want to apologize for hi-jacking Heather's thread. If I had complaints
> > about SFTP I should have written to Kevin directly. If it means we all
> are
> > now "piling on" to say how much we love this tool. I will also switch my
> > tone herewith and into the future.
> >
> > Certainly an open language.. if achieved will allow for a great many new
> > extensions at prices we can all afford. I am also "all in" with it comes
> > to Livecode and continue to be a strong advocate. My post did not reflect
> > that at all. I have dabbled with PHP, Javascript and really don't want to
> > bother going with another language.
> >
> > Please resume the intended discussion:
> >
> > Heather wrote:
> >
> > "Please go and read this blog post from Kevin, it contains important
> > information I'm sure will interest you!
> >
> > https://livecode.com/infinite-livecode-a-letter-from-our-ceo/
> >
> > All the best form Hawaii
> >
> > BR
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
>
> > use-livecode@.runrev
>
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> "The first 90% of the task takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% takes
> the other 90% of the time."
> Peter M. Brigham
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Infinite-LiveCode-Message-from-CEO-tp4704550p4704596.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-13 Thread Dave Kilroy

Hi all

I agree with Sannyasin about positivity and this being a thread about
supporting the development of LiveCode

I also am 'all in' and have just pledged at
https://livecode.com/project/infinite-livecode/

My regards to all who have pledged or who intend to pledge, no matter how
little or how much - and I'll see you on the sunny side of the street some
day!

Kind regards

Dave




Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote
> On 5/12/16, 2:03 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola" 

> use-livecode-bounces@.runrev

>  on behalf of 

> rdimola@

>  wrote:
> 
>>The LC upside WAY outweighs the downside. I'm all in!
>>At least that's how I feel.
> 
> I want to apologize for hi-jacking Heather's thread. If I had complaints
> about SFTP I should have written to Kevin directly. If it means we all are
> now "piling on" to say how much we love this tool. I will also switch my
> tone herewith and into the future.
> 
> Certainly an open language.. if achieved will allow for a great many new
> extensions at prices we can all afford. I am also "all in" with it comes
> to Livecode and continue to be a strong advocate. My post did not reflect
> that at all. I have dabbled with PHP, Javascript and really don't want to
> bother going with another language. 
> 
> Please resume the intended discussion:
> 
> Heather wrote: 
> 
> "Please go and read this blog post from Kevin, it contains important
> information I'm sure will interest you!
> 
> https://livecode.com/infinite-livecode-a-letter-from-our-ceo/
> 
> All the best form Hawaii
> 
> BR
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> use-livecode@.runrev

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> subscription preferences:
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-
"The first 90% of the task takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% takes the 
other 90% of the time."
Peter M. Brigham 
--
View this message in context: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Infinite-LiveCode-Message-from-CEO-tp4704550p4704596.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

On 5/12/16, 2:03 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola" 

wrote:

>The LC upside WAY outweighs the downside. I'm all in!
>At least that's how I feel.

I want to apologize for hi-jacking Heather's thread. If I had complaints about 
SFTP I should have written to Kevin directly. If it means we all are now 
"piling on" to say how much we love this tool. I will also switch my tone 
herewith and into the future.

Certainly an open language.. if achieved will allow for a great many new 
extensions at prices we can all afford. I am also "all in" with it comes to 
Livecode and continue to be a strong advocate. My post did not reflect that at 
all. I have dabbled with PHP, Javascript and really don't want to bother going 
with another language. 

Please resume the intended discussion:

Heather wrote: 

"Please go and read this blog post from Kevin, it contains important 
information I'm sure will interest you!

https://livecode.com/infinite-livecode-a-letter-from-our-ceo/

All the best form Hawaii

BR

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RE: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread Ralph DiMola

I understand these frustrations. I am in the middle of tracking down LC8 bugs 
now. I wish that after the incredible achievement that is LC 8 there were 0 
bugs. I wish some these things were free in the Indy Edition. I wish I had a 
new car. My bottom line is:

1) LC got me into the mobile market without getting the Java and Objective C 
headaches.
2) And as a bonus, Mundane text processing utilities are so easy with LC 
chunks. I just can't even imagine using any other language now.
3) A great community. Try to get the Kevin or Mark of Adobe to monitor and 
respond on mailing lists.
4) Support staff that promptly respond to requests quickly. Sometimes even more 
than once in a day. Can't beat that!
5) Bug reports are answered and fixed much quicker than in large companies. 
Yah... I know there are some bug reports that have fallen behind. A few of them 
are mine but all-in-all LC bugs are fixed faster than any other SW I have ever 
used.

The LC upside WAY outweighs the downside. I'm all in!
At least that's how I feel.


Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net



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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread Colin Kelly

Please don't misunderstand me, I really like LiveCode, I use it in my workplace 
to rapidly build proof of concept software modals to get sign-off on projects 
that are then built with more standardised and robust IDEs with more leisurely 
time frames. 
LiveCode is by large measures faster than any other language at building 
X-platform apps from concept to prototype. 
It just bites me that I keep having to reinvest in something that IMO is not a 
polished product, even the 'stable' releases of v7 are at best betas and v8 
should really still be considered alphas and not fit for sale, again IMHO. :)

Sent from my iPhone

> On 13 May 2016, at 00:25, Trevor DeVore  wrote:
> 
>> On Thursday, May 12, 2016, Colin Kelly  wrote:
>> 
>> And as for LC8. It's just too buggy to use in any production apps.
> 
> 
> Crap! You should have told me that before I started letting customers use
> my company's new app written in LC 8. Now I need to go un-release it ;-)
> 
> -- 
> Trevor DeVore
> ScreenSteps
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread stephen barncard

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Trevor DeVore 
wrote:

> Crap! You should have told me that before I started letting customers use
> my company's new app written in LC 8. Now I need to go un-release it ;-)
>

I've noticed there's a lot of Trevor code influence in 8 by the way...

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread Trevor DeVore

On Thursday, May 12, 2016, Colin Kelly  wrote:
>
> And as for LC8. It's just too buggy to use in any production apps.


Crap! You should have told me that before I started letting customers use
my company's new app written in LC 8. Now I need to go un-release it ;-)

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread Colin Kelly

+1
The same goes for SMTP. 

And as for LC8. It's just too buggy to use in any production apps. If LC7 is 
truly EoL I will probably have to start reinvesting back into Delphi or 
brushing  back up on C#. 
I simply don't have time to keep nursing LC and finding workarounds. 

Thanks LC for the memories, it's been emotional!

Sent from my iPhone

> On 12 May 2016, at 21:55, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  wrote:
> 
> I have bought, paid, contributed to every single forward offer that RunRev 
> and LiveCode have offered through the years, I had a great deal of faith in 
> our LC team at HQ. 
> 
> But when I saw recently that something we've been begging for, for 15 years… 
> simple SFTP functionality from the engine.. .(available for free in dozens of 
> open source apps) is only going to be offered to Business, my enthusiasm for 
> any further participation in any such things as "infinite livecode"  was 
> pretty much extinguished.
> 
> It's not that I don't understand a Business level pricing…the entire 
> enterprise collaboration and support makes a great deal of sense for a higher 
> pricing tier.
> 
> But when you say  "For all you cooks out there.. you can only use a serving 
> spoon (SFTP) if you choose Business, otherwise you have to carve your own 
> serving spoon (run around installing keys on machines and scripting scp and 
> rsync code into apps.) "   I have to just blink twice and scratch my head 
> 
> "What is going o? How many more basic utilities that we think we have 
> supported development for, are going to be out of our price range in the 
> future?" 
> 
> BR
> 
>> On 5/12/16, 7:50 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Heather Laine" 
>>  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Please go and read this blog post from Kevin, it contains important 
>> information I'm sure will interest you!
>> 
>> https://livecode.com/infinite-livecode-a-letter-from-our-ceo/
> 
> ___
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

It was announced somewhere recently or perhaps I bumped into it when I compared 
versions.

The other model I think would work would be to offer low priced plug ins. I 
wouldn't mind paying $9.99 for an SFTP plug in…  I realize LiveCode doesn't 
have Unity's user base, but the Unity store is amazing… all kinds of things 
from $2.95 to  $500.00 add ons… 

Atom has an SFTP plug in. Previous to that I paid 4.95 for an SFTP plug in for 
Sublime Text 2.




On 5/12/16, 11:53 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Matthias Rebbe" 
 wrote:

"simple SFTP functionality from the engine.. is only going to be offered to 
Business, "

Hm, did i miss that? Where did you see or read that?

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread Bob Sneidar

On May 12, 2016, at 15:00 , Richard Gaskin 
> wrote:

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

> But when I saw recently that something we've been begging for, for
> 15 years… simple SFTP functionality from the engine..

Writing the word "simple" doesn't make it so. :)

Yes, many programs offer it.  But none of them also provide a generalized 
scripting language with integrated GUI controls suitable for crafting a vast 
range of apps across seven platforms.

If LC was only an SFTP client it might be simple.  But we also ask them to do a 
lot more, a thousand things no one asks of any SFTP client.

Moreover, because there are so very many capable SFTP clients, why does the 
world need one more?

Once upon a time a lot of people thought they wanted SFTP in LiveCode. Some 
still do.  But most of them would rather have the other things the team is also 
building, and along the way it seems many have lost sight of why they thought 
they wanted it in the first place.

Agreed. At some point we really need as developers to "roll our own" as it were.

Bob S

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

I'm going with authorized keys in house and shell (scp/rSync) and Web API's for 
apps used by volunteers outside. You are right there… it's probably a more 
secure method… I only have a handful of people who have the FTP passwords to 
the server(s) and that's probably as it should remain.

It would be just so much easier to have a UI that allows for the user to enter 
a user name and password.

On 5/12/16, 12:00 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin" 

wrote:

>There are no doubt edge cases beyond these, but these three cover about 
>90% of upload use cases, and all the use cases you've described thus far 
>for your organization.
>
>If you have a need that falls outside of these common solutions, let's 
>look at it.  Perhaps there's a way to resolve even highly-specialized 
>needs at minimal cost.

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread Mark Schonewille


I agree with you. The community helped the company. In return for that,
all new features should be open-source. I'm very disappointed by the
"business-only" features. It seems inconsistent with RunRev's new
open-source strategy. I won't be supporting any future fund
raising campaigns until this changes.

Kind regards,

Mark Schonewille
http://economy-x-talk.com
https://www.facebook.com/marksch

Buy the most extensive book on the
LiveCode language:
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com

Op 12-May-16 om 22:55 schreef Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami:

I have bought, paid, contributed to every single forward offer that
RunRev and LiveCode have offered through the years, I had a great
deal of faith in our LC team at HQ.

But when I saw recently that something we've been begging for, for 15
years… simple SFTP functionality from the engine.. .(available for
free in dozens of open source apps) is only going to be offered to
Business, my enthusiasm for any further participation in any such
things as "infinite livecode"  was pretty much extinguished.

It's not that I don't understand a Business level pricing…the entire
enterprise collaboration and support makes a great deal of sense for
a higher pricing tier.

But when you say  "For all you cooks out there.. you can only use a
serving spoon (SFTP) if you choose Business, otherwise you have to
carve your own serving spoon (run around installing keys on machines
and scripting scp and rsync code into apps.) "   I have to just blink
twice and scratch my head

"What is going o? How many more basic utilities that we think we have
supported development for, are going to be out of our price range in
the future?"

BR

On 5/12/16, 7:50 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Heather Laine"
 wrote:


Please go and read this blog post from Kevin, it contains important
information I'm sure will interest you!

https://livecode.com/infinite-livecode-a-letter-from-our-ceo/


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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread Skip Kimpel

+1

> On May 12, 2016, at 4:55 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  
> wrote:
> 
> I have bought, paid, contributed to every single forward offer that RunRev 
> and LiveCode have offered through the years, I had a great deal of faith in 
> our LC team at HQ. 
> 
> But when I saw recently that something we've been begging for, for 15 years… 
> simple SFTP functionality from the engine.. .(available for free in dozens of 
> open source apps) is only going to be offered to Business, my enthusiasm for 
> any further participation in any such things as "infinite livecode"  was 
> pretty much extinguished.
> 
> It's not that I don't understand a Business level pricing…the entire 
> enterprise collaboration and support makes a great deal of sense for a higher 
> pricing tier.
> 
> But when you say  "For all you cooks out there.. you can only use a serving 
> spoon (SFTP) if you choose Business, otherwise you have to carve your own 
> serving spoon (run around installing keys on machines and scripting scp and 
> rsync code into apps.) "   I have to just blink twice and scratch my head 
> 
> "What is going o? How many more basic utilities that we think we have 
> supported development for, are going to be out of our price range in the 
> future?" 
> 
> BR
> 
>> On 5/12/16, 7:50 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Heather Laine" 
>>  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Please go and read this blog post from Kevin, it contains important 
>> information I'm sure will interest you!
>> 
>> https://livecode.com/infinite-livecode-a-letter-from-our-ceo/
> 
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> preferences:
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread Robert Mann

Same thought from France! and approximatively same wait period of more than
10 years for audio recording at 44100 kHz compressed audio.

Now I suspect one point of view would be be :: "well that is precisely what
we want to clear.. by allowing faster wrapping of existing utilities.. we
need the infinitum to complete the audio functions!! "

Now, i was not aware that the 2013 kickstart only brought 30% of the cost
needed to get livecode 8 through. I thought it would be more 50%.

And I earlier said I would be happy to participate regularly to the
development.. but.. but.. for a more reasonable priced indy "hobbits"
version, and I wrote ok if that cost 150 bucks every now and then.

it is arguable that I could then decide to pour through 75$ more into the
community version instead. (and so on...) But then frankly, I feel the need
for some kind of community guidance body to accompany mothership.

As the situation stands, livecode drives the whole lot. So community money
contributors just support "blindly" livecode without any form of
representation. I wonder how long that can go on just like that.

That is by no means a message of distrust vis a vis CEO, I have great
respect for what they're up to. I just wonder how viable that form of
"trust" organization is viable. And frankly i'd be curious to learn about
how other communities get organized in such a situation.

As Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami points out, there will always be some tensions
between the two versions. And the resulting balance of functions might never
seen as right so long as decisions are solely taken by one party
exclusively.

--
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread Richard Gaskin

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

> But when I saw recently that something we've been begging for, for
> 15 years… simple SFTP functionality from the engine..

Writing the word "simple" doesn't make it so. :)

Yes, many programs offer it.  But none of them also provide a 
generalized scripting language with integrated GUI controls suitable for 
crafting a vast range of apps across seven platforms.

If LC was only an SFTP client it might be simple.  But we also ask them 
to do a lot more, a thousand things no one asks of any SFTP client.

Moreover, because there are so very many capable SFTP clients, why does 
the world need one more?

Once upon a time a lot of people thought they wanted SFTP in LiveCode. 
Some still do.  But most of them would rather have the other things the 
team is also building, and along the way it seems many have lost sight 
of why they thought they wanted it in the first place.

There are three common scenarios for uploading files to servers:

a) Non-admins submitting content to the site.
   This is commonly handled via HTTP APIs, which is both more
   efficient and far more secure.  Why give unbridled access
   to the entire site just to upload a file?  HTTP is the tool
   for that job.

b) Admins doing general administrative tasks.
   Most tasks are done faster in shell, but once in a while a
   general-purpose SFTP client can be useful.  And when it is,
   there are dozens of free ones for every platform to choose
   from.

c) Admins seeking to automate file uploads.
   Anyone doing work on a server often enough to need automation
   has also shared their SSH keys with the server, so using
   rsync, scp, or other such tools are the natural choice, offering
   far more efficiency than FTP/SFTP.  After all, if you're automating
   isn't efficiency the goal?  All such automation can be managed
   through LiveCode today. (In fact, mixing Expect with bash and
   LiveCode you can even write Ansible-like tools in LiveCode for
   very broad-scope automation, but that's a different topic.)

There are no doubt edge cases beyond these, but these three cover about 
90% of upload use cases, and all the use cases you've described thus far 
for your organization.

If you have a need that falls outside of these common solutions, let's 
look at it.  Perhaps there's a way to resolve even highly-specialized 
needs at minimal cost.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

2016-05-12 Thread Matthias Rebbe


Matthias Rebbe
Bramkampsieke 13
32312 Lübbecke
Tel +49 5741 31
+49 160 5504462
Fax: +49 5741 310002
eMail: matth...@m-r-d.de 

BR5 Konverter - BR5 -> MP3 
> Am 12.05.2016 um 22:55 schrieb Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami :

> But when I saw recently that something we've been begging for, for 15 years… 
> simple SFTP functionality from the engine.. .(available for free in dozens of 
> open source apps) is only going to be offered to Business, my enthusiasm for 
> any further participation in any such things as "infinite livecode"  was 
> pretty much extinguished.

Hm, did i miss that? Where did you see or read that? 

Matthias
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO