Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
But, Is really necessary to embrace open source to use Livecode as scripting language in Open Office? Notice that iPad, iPhone and iPod uses C# and Android uses Java... When you create applications for these platforms, LiveCode apps does not get compiled as C# and Java executables? This means that there a way to use propietary code along open source languages. Please, tell me if I am wrong about these assumptions. Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Where-does-survive-the-inventive-user-tp3698117p3725548.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Alejandro- It's not nearly that simple. Here's an example: http://www.infoworld.com/d/application-development/oracle-javas-worst-enemy-168828 -- -Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
I find it interesting that we've identified that a couple of things that made HyperCard great was that it was initially free with every Mac and it came with loads of free examples. I'm not sure that it was targeted towards inventive users, but just a continuation of the philosophy that as computers got smarter and smarter, it should be possible to make programing them easier and easier. Bill Atkinson and Dan Winkler were so successful in achieving their goal of simplifying programming that suddenly 'average' people discovered they could program their Mac. Suddenly BBS were inundated with 1000s of variations of probably only a small number of base stacks - address books, flash cards, collection inventories etc... So why do we think the inventive user has been left behind, when, IMO, history has virtually repeated itself. Apple gave Xcode and the iOS SDK away for free along with an abundance of free examples and tutorials. Whilst the number of iApps at the AppStore may not exceed the total number of stacks that were in the public domain I would counter that I truly believe that the current variety of differentiated iApps far exceeds the number of defferentiated stacks. But as Chipp quite correctly pointed out, this has a lot to do with the fact we have Browsers, DBs, video, GPS, WiFi etc etc today. I think the inventive user is extremely well represented at the AppStore. If a kid writes an App for his mum so she can find where she parked her car isn't a classic example of an inventive user, I don't know what is. There is also no way of knowing how many iApps are out there that aren't on the AppStore. I must have at least 100 LC stacks that are for no one but me. I have 2 LC Mobile stacks that reside only on my iPhone. Is Xcode as easy to use as LiveCode. No way, but that doesn't mean the inventive user has been left behind, just that my particular way of thinking isn't geared to C#. IMO I think it is a huge mistake that Apple charges you for the privilege of uploading your own program onto your own phone. I think this provides just as much a barrier to the inventive user as charging for the programming environment. Interesting that the iOS developer program and LC Personal cost about the same. IMO, if Apple changed it's charging policy and made it free to upload to your personal phone, this would open the door to many many more inventive users, unfortunately for RunRev, the same can not be said for making LC free - but this has more to do with brand presence than the actual dollar value. I have no problem whatsoever with Apple charging for the providing a quality control service before allowing an iApp make it into the AppStore. 20 yrs ago I would have paid for a CD full of FREE stacks if someone guaranteed that none of them would crash my computer. My personal view of the inventive user is they tackle a small task where the problem to solution cycle needs to be the right combination of quick, cheap and easy. HC was all that, even when they started charging for it. The cost of getting into iOS apps is actually cheaper than what they use to charge for HC. It may not be as quick and easy as HC, but clearly it must still be the right combination for many. The inventive user is still out their! On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Lynn Fredricks lfredri...@proactive-intl.com wrote: But clearly, having NONE is not the answer. Given the market now - is there an heir to the inventive user of significant potential size, ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
I think like many other software driven technologies, LC has passed by the basic inventive user HC may have been intended for. For instance, I quit using MS Word. It just got too complicated and I don't typically do desktop publishing, or write large books, so I pretty much stick with Google Docs: the MacWrite of it's time. Sadly, as computers and users become more sophisticated, and as their programs continue to evolve with new, better features so they can continue to charge for the next upgrade, what is lost is much of the original 'gotcha' germ of attraction. I'm afraid LC is to HyperCard as MS Word is to MacWrite. I'm not sure one can go backwards easily. I'm suspect LC has close to an order of magnitude more tokens than HC-- there's just so much more to learn. Not to mention it now runs on at least half a dozen platforms in many different incarnations. And it needs to support much more on each platform. Back when HC was around, they didn't have to support SQL, or a browser, or even color bit depths more than 1. They didn't have to worry about libURL, image and alphadata, multiple screens, regex, and mutiple flavors of repeat statements. Not to mention all the new messages now recognized, especially in mobile platforms. Even all that said, assuming one could 'dumb down' LC to basic HC levels, and assuming one could write a really nice set of home, address, calendar, etc. demo stacks (didn't Gaskin once write a beginner Address stack or am I dreaming?), does anyone really think HyperCard, reimagined as LC, would actually gain traction in today's world? Remember, back when HC was born, there was no Internet, or really much in the way of email, so folks who wanted to 'invent' really didn't have much OTHER than HyperCard and Basic (which pretty much sucked). ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Hi Chipp, I agree with your commentary about the differences between Now and Then. Everyone agrees that this platform needs more exposure and in a previous message, I asked about the possibility of creating some plug-in to use LiveCode as an alternate scripting language in Open Office: http://framework.openoffice.org/scripting/release-0.2/index.html http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/DevGuide/Scripting/How_the_Scripting_Framework_Works The advantages of using LiveCode are notable, while working with text, words, lines... What do you think of this idea? Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Where-does-survive-the-inventive-user-tp3698117p3724370.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Le 4 août 2011 à 06:30, Judy Perry a écrit : Something better is needed... and geared towards the true inventive user and less towards the newbie programmer. The great strength of HyperCard was to offer us hundreds of preprogrammed stacks that we could arrange as a lego to build our first applications before we had to put our fingers in the dust to understand how these stacks were coded. -- Pierre Sahores mobile : 06 03 95 77 70 www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Something better is needed... and geared towards the true inventive user and less towards the newbie programmer. The great strength of HyperCard was to offer us hundreds of preprogrammed stacks that we could arrange as a lego to build our first applications before we had to put our fingers in the dust to understand how these stacks were coded. Out of the box, I think it wasn't quite that many, but what was shipped allowed many enthusiastic users to create that many, when it was still possible to get HyperCard for free. Some of the stacks that were included then in HyperCard were more immediately useful then because there weren't that many alternatives to speak of that allowed you to so easily modify them to suit whatever you wanted. The feature options are so much huger with LiveCode now, but so are the alternatives. But I think the question is, if all the programmatic elements that created the HC phenonemon then were implemented in LC today, would the end result be similar to what it was in the HC days? I think there have been some pretty significant market based changes since then, and you can't have one without the other. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
I think we overlook the novelty aspect of Hypercard when it was first released, combined with the fact that it was just there. Tell all Mac users that their new OS allows them to make custom apps without having to buy anything or install anything, and those inclined are going to give it a go. It's fuel and matches delivered to the front door, indeed put next to the fireplace. It only needs someone to place the fuel where they want it, strike the match and toss it in. It worked in large part and for so long because Apple, the creators of Hypercard didn't need it to work. It was a real act of benevolence IMHO that any Mac user could take or leave and no one was any the worse for wear. Livecode is not in that boat. They live or die based upon the marketability of their product. They have to convince us to go down to the market and buy the fuel and matches, and then haul them home and actually light it. And not just ANY fuel and matches, (their are several brands) but THEIR fuel and matches, based upon the promise their their fuel lights a whole lot easier and faster, and provides pretty close to the same amount of heat as their competitors. Sure a couple competitors fuel burns in different colors, and one forms little dancing angels in the flames, but do we really need that? We just want to get the fire lit and go do other things. The trick to marketing Livecode is to find others just like us and convince them that Runrev has what they need. God I love analogies! Bob On Aug 4, 2011, at 7:52 AM, Lynn Fredricks wrote: But I think the question is, if all the programmatic elements that created the HC phenonemon then were implemented in LC today, would the end result be similar to what it was in the HC days? I think there have been some pretty significant market based changes since then, and you can't have one without the other. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Indeed. On Thu, 4 Aug 2011, Pierre Sahores wrote: The great strength of HyperCard was to offer us hundreds of preprogrammed stacks that we could arrange as a lego to build our first applications before we had to put our fingers in the dust to understand how these stacks were coded. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: Where does survive the inventive user ?
But clearly, having NONE is not the answer. Judy http://bingo.economy-x-talk.com/ On Thu, 4 Aug 2011, Lynn Fredricks wrote: snip But I think the question is, if all the programmatic elements that created the HC phenonemon then were implemented in LC today, would the end result be similar to what it was in the HC days? I think there have been some pretty significant market based changes since then, and you can't have one without the other. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: Where does survive the inventive user ?
But clearly, having NONE is not the answer. Well, but it is an answer, until you find the right business case to ask the question. I don't think it's a question of if LiveCode could fit the role or not that HC did. We've been talking about all these great free stacks HC had (or caused to make), and how that was attractive to something we now know used to exist. If there was suddenly a free LC with the same stacks that HC had (modestly updated), that's not to say the market response would be the same as before. Given the market now - is there an heir to the inventive user of significant potential size, and what other qualities/industries define them so LC can be marketed to them? Figuring out who they are would also necessarily drive what sort of free project stacks ago should be built. LC's sitting pretty well as a deployment based, cross platform solution with mobile, server and desktop - so pursuing the inventive user? Needs a lot more definition to help drive product development and not be contrary to where LC's been successful. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server Judy http://bingo.economy-x-talk.com/ On Thu, 4 Aug 2011, Lynn Fredricks wrote: snip But I think the question is, if all the programmatic elements that created the HC phenonemon then were implemented in LC today, would the end result be similar to what it was in the HC days? I think there have been some pretty significant market based changes since then, and you can't have one without the other. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Alejandro, Something better is needed... and geared towards the true inventive user and less towards the newbie programmer. Best, Judy http://bingo.economy-x-talk.com/ On Tue, 2 Aug 2011, Alejandro Tejada wrote: http://www.metacard.com/pi6.html http://www.canelasoftware.com/mc/metacard24/mtp.mc http://www.canelasoftware.com/mc/metacard24/mtpguide.mc http://www.canelasoftware.com/mc/metacard24/README.mtp Al ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Hi Roger, Thanks for the link... Loan sharking is the most destructive way of putting the theory of increasing returns in the interests of a few still fewer. Saas information systems tailored to the needs of the majority are the other possible scope of the economic model of increasing returns to pool resources usually destroyed by the models of economic development of the shortage... Usury is the first way to produce Le 30 juil. 2011 à 17:31, Roger Eller a écrit : This video is a very informative explanation of where money 'actually' comes from. It's shocking if you've not seen it before. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544# ˜Roger ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Briefly, there was Revolution Media, a FREE version of the IDE that, while it couldn't build stand-along apps or do some of the database interfacing, had the whole language and development environment right there at your fingertips. Seeing that made me happy for Livecode's future. It meant that anyone that wanted to learn to program, or had a particular task in mind and needed something easy to implement it with... A free solution was at hand. But that's gone now, and the best alternative is the 30-day trial, and who can learn a whole new language (even one as easy as LC), or worse learn programming itself, in just 30 days? I recently started investigating the Khan Academy video library. It's a free collection of videos (available on YouTube) teaching math, economics, and other subjects. And that includes computer science. But they are using Python as the language of choice, and one can see why. It's multi-platform, its used in many environments, and it's free. Livecode has all that, except the free entry point. While I'm going to be using the Khan videos to help teach my daughter, for programming, I'm going to teach her myself with Livecode. Khan Academy has only been doing videos on Computer Science for a month now, but the math videos have been around for a while now and have had a LOT of eyes on them. And with talk about using them as part of public education reform, who knows how big they will get. Imagine if all those eyes were looking at Livecode instead of a cryptic text-only Python script... ~ Chris Innanen ~ Nonsanity On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Francis Nugent Dixon effe...@wanadoo.frwrote: Hi, Craig said : who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it Amen to that ! This was my point - Who IS exposed to LiveCode ? Maybe we can get some input from the LiveCode Commercial Department. How do you go about tickling a non-LiveCode-User ? Certainly not on an upturned dustbin in Trafalgar Square -Francis ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
That's insane! No one in their right mind would do that! ;-) Bob On Jul 30, 2011, at 7:42 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Strange what we think we'd never do. Or even stranger, we could trust our money to so-called professional money managers who mishandle it so badly that the world economy is brought to the edge of collapse. ;) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
I think the theory behind money is that it gives everyone a common reference to the amount of productive work a person has performed, so that if you were a blacksmith and the baker's horse didn't need shoes right now, you wouldn't go hungry. It has a lot of advantages, but of course one disadvantage is that if someone can ever con everyone into putting it all into one great big pool, with the promise that they will get more back later, then they can take it from everyone without them knowing what happened until it's too late, and just say something like, Well we never guaranteed you this would work! Another problem with paper money is the controlling authority can just print more of it whenever they want to get richer, thus devaluing everyone else's money, and thereby stealing it, or rather stealing the value of it and transferring it to themselves. This is how our mothers and fathers got their lifetime savings taken away from them. This why many of them spent their senior years in bad old folk's homes, and their children were fairly powerless to do anything about it. We the People let some cons run the government and devalue everything we worked for all our lives. At some point we just accepted that politicians could not be virtuous, and that it didn't matter anyway. So as long as they made the right promises to help us personally and seemed to be on our team we would vote for them, no matter what kind of lushes or brigands they proved to be. Now politics is a con man's utopia, a ritzy fishing club where those who have done well at the game are allowed to fish in the big pond. But there I go again. Just shake your head at me and click the delete button. :-) Bob On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:31 AM, Roger Eller wrote: This video is a very informative explanation of where money 'actually' comes from. It's shocking if you've not seen it before. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544# ˜Roger ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Meanwhile, a comprehensive LC tutorial, extremely user friendly, written in LC, starting at the most elementary level... Has it been envisioned? Tim ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
I too am not a professional programmer and did not come from a Hypercard background. As a physician and clinical researcher, I found RunRev 5 years ago because I wanted to test a theory that syringomyelia (a pathologic cyst in the spinal cord) would affect motor control, which might prove useful for diagnosis or clinical monitoring. Within 6 months of purchasing Runtime Revolution (now LiveCode) I had a desktop app that could test rapid alternating finger movements. It's a shame that the theory did not hold up, but after that experience, I became hooked as a RunRev hobbyist. Over the last 5 years, I tried other development environments, but I always came back to LiveCode; for me as primarily a content person and not a programmer, it was the learning curve that I could manage. Within the last year, I retired as a full-time physician and I'm able to devote more time to LiveCode. I've also begun to collaborate with my son on some LiveCode projects; at 24, he's picked it up much faster than I did. I still have much to learn (LiveCode Server, HTML CSS integration with LiveCode, iOS Android development). I am grateful to RunRev for its remarkable ongoing success at providing cross-platform tools that allow non-programmers to do some programming. I'm also grateful to the generosity of seasoned RunRev developers that contribute to this developer's list and to the forum. Those contributions are especially valuable to non-programmers, like myself. I concur with what Peter Brigham wrote, I have no idea how you market to people like me. RunRev has continued to make available new tools that are valuable for non-programmers (e.g. Lessons, Summer Academy). RunRev has a strong website and annual conferences (live streaming) that draw in potential users. There are wonderful 3rd party sites that assist non-programmers (LivecodeJournal.com, revolution.byu.edu, hyperactivesw.com ...). A possible suggestion for marketing, is that a mechanism / an exchange be established to assist a newer programmer in obtaining paid assistance from an experienced programmer. For example, I might have interest in contracting with an experienced LC programmer to beta test an app. Also, as a retired professor in my department at the University, I've thought about volunteering to assist faculty members undertake some LiveCode projects. Before I committed myself to such projects, I would like to know that there is available, at a reasonable cost, some advanced assistance. From the RunRev website (runrev dot com/support/consultants/), from this developer's list and from the forum, I certainly have many names of advanced LC programmers but 1) I don't know who might have interest in such short-term involvement, 2) I don't know who has experience in iOS or Android development, and 3) I don't know the ballpark the costs. Further elaborating a mechanism to link moderately-experienced to advanced LiveCode programmers may help promote LiveCode. Best, Jim L. On Jul 27, 2011, at 7:24 PM, Peter Brigham MD wrote: ... I'm not a programmer, just picked it up on the side. I have no idea how you market to people like me, but I suspect there are lots of us scattered around. -- Peter On Jul 27, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Timothy Miller wrote: ... It's gradually dawning on me that programmers like me have become rather rare. Fewer and fewer non-professionals on this list, as far as I can tell. I don't understand why, seems like a shame. Many people have use for the kind of functionality an amateur and dabbler can get out of LiveCode, and it isn't that hard to do. Admittedly, HyperCard was easier, simply because it was less complex. I've wondered if LiveCode might be more approachable if it had some kind of dumb mode, sort of like the old userLevel system in HyperCard. Probably won't happen though. FWIW... Tim ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Kay C Lan wrote: I look in my wallet an there are a couple of notes and a couple of plastic cards. The notes represent about 0.01% of iMoney I have in my account. I can use those plastic cards to access the BankCloud and if the strangers at the Bank are willing, the machine will give me more real money on a 1 to 1 reduction of my iMoney. Sometimes I don't even have to change iMoney into real money, I just go to the shop and transfer iMoney from my account to their iMoney account which all resides in the same BankCloud. Of course I have to pay a 'rental' fee for the privilege of being able to access my iMoney at virtually any time or shop. But then again, if a stranger at the bank goes all Nick Leeson on me, the bank will collapse and my iMoney in the BankCloud will disappear like the early morning stratocumulus, leaving me without any real money. Strange what we think we'd never do. Or even stranger, we could trust our money to so-called professional money managers who mishandle it so badly that the world economy is brought to the edge of collapse. ;) For all of our concerns about online security, one of the most common methods is still the most old-school: Every day millions of us go to restaurants where we hand our credit card to a stranger who takes it out of the room for several minutes. Ostensibly they're merely processing the transaction, but of course we have no way to know exactly what happens while the card is out of the room. I do a lot of online banking, but the only instance of identity theft I've experienced was from numbers stolen off a card I only use in the physical world. Further irony: most old-school modems used at restaurants and retail stores transmit without encryption over standard phone lines. While those lines aren't exposed to the Internet, they are vulnerable to any physical interception of traffic, such as tapping the local trunk. And here in the States we have a growing problem with fake or modified ATMs that skim card data. Remember: just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. :) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
On Jul 30, 2011, at 10:42 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Kay C Lan wrote: I look in my wallet an there are a couple of notes and a couple of plastic cards. The notes represent about 0.01% of iMoney I have in my account. I can use those plastic cards to access the BankCloud and if the strangers at the Bank are willing, the machine will give me more real money on a 1 to 1 reduction of my iMoney. Sometimes I don't even have to change iMoney into real money, I just go to the shop and transfer iMoney from my account to their iMoney account which all resides in the same BankCloud. Of course I have to pay a 'rental' fee for the privilege of being able to access my iMoney at virtually any time or shop. But then again, if a stranger at the bank goes all Nick Leeson on me, the bank will collapse and my iMoney in the BankCloud will disappear like the early morning stratocumulus, leaving me without any real money. Strange what we think we'd never do. Or even stranger, we could trust our money to so-called professional money managers who mishandle it so badly that the world economy is brought to the edge of collapse. ;) I've always wondered why they're called brokers ... I think if I were in that line of work I'd find another way of describing it. -- Peter Peter M. Brigham pmb...@gmail.com http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: Where does survive the inventive user ?
:-) I've always wondered why they're called brokers ... I think if I were in that line of work I'd find another way of describing it. -- Peter Peter M. Brigham pmb...@gmail.com http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com wrote: Kay C Lan wrote: I look in my wallet an there are a couple of notes and a couple of plastic cards. The notes represent about 0.01% of iMoney I have in my account. I can use those plastic cards to access the BankCloud and if the strangers at the Bank are willing, the machine will give me more real money on a 1 to 1 reduction of my iMoney. Sometimes I don't even have to change iMoney into real money, I just go to the shop and transfer iMoney from my account to their iMoney account which all resides in the same BankCloud. Of course I have to pay a 'rental' fee for the privilege of being able to access my iMoney at virtually any time or shop. But then again, if a stranger at the bank goes all Nick Leeson on me, the bank will collapse and my iMoney in the BankCloud will disappear like the early morning stratocumulus, leaving me without any real money. Strange what we think we'd never do. Or even stranger, we could trust our money to so-called professional money managers who mishandle it so badly that the world economy is brought to the edge of collapse. ;) This video is a very informative explanation of where money 'actually' comes from. It's shocking if you've not seen it before. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544# ˜Roger ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Well I used it in a professional environment (AM Studios) for several years and nobody seemed to mention that it might seem non-professional. I have worked in 6502 and Z80 assembly for quite a while before the Mac and hypercard. HC was quite a libration from the tedium of just getting a window with a button on the screen in ZBasic and everybody was quite surprised and happy that the project got done on schedule and happily in use by the staff - so much I got a big bonus when Herb left the company. On 28 July 2011 19:40, Robert Brenstein r...@robelko.com wrote: If I recall, HyperCard was called an erector set for Mac users, not necessarily programmers, and indeed used mostly by non-professional programmers. There was also an Xcmd for Valentina -- yes, I started using Valentina database with HyperCard -- and it worked really well but Valentina was not network based then. Robert Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user?
Thinking about inventive users and open source software... When I first read about the Open Source movement, I though that it was a group of developers that wanted to create software in the same way that an artist creates his work: A lasting work of art that trascend time because of his many outstanding and unique qualities... Hmmm, looks like I was wrong in my first impression about Open source, but just in case: Could anyone show me these outstanding artistic qualities in Open Source software? Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Where-does-survive-the-inventive-user-tp3696711p3703159.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Hi Stephen, Stephen Barncard-4 wrote: Well I used it in a professional environment (AM Studios) for several years and nobody seemed to mention that it might seem non-professional. I have worked in 6502 and Z80 assembly for quite a while before the Mac and hypercard. HC was quite a libration from the tedium of just getting a window with a button on the screen in ZBasic and everybody was quite surprised and happy that the project got done on schedule and happily in use by the staff - so much I got a big bonus when Herb left the company. Nice history! Apple should have featured your use of HyperCard, back then. By the way, Herb is Herb Alpert? Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Where-does-survive-the-inventive-user-tp3698117p3703174.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Yep. We wrote the first XCMD/Xtra for TCP/IP for Director. It was called XtraNet. Macromedia tried to buy it from us. On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 5:51 PM, stephen barncard stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com wrote: I know, I tried to do it myself in the early 90s. TCP/IP on the mac was quite unreliable. On 28 July 2011 15:00, Chipp Walters ch...@chipp.com wrote: Let's not forget, HC was a TCP/IP stack away from BEING a first browser ( http://www.isegoria.net/2008/05/hypercard-what-could-have-been/), so I'm don't think it could happen again-- though of course I would be rooting for it! Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Chipp Walters CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
The way was to handle TCP/IP trough MacOS 8 + WebSTAR 3 --TCP AppleEvent sockets translator -- HC 2.4.1 hand made standalone server app (via Resedit, if i right remember...). Worked in single thread mode only because the OS and HC architectures ! ... Went to Linux, Apache and Metacard cgi because those limitations and because i did't trust in the WebObjects, ColdFusion and Visual Cafe first public versions i brought... ;-) Le 29 juil. 2011 à 00:51, stephen barncard a écrit : I know, I tried to do it myself in the early 90s. TCP/IP on the mac was quite unreliable. On 28 July 2011 15:00, Chipp Walters ch...@chipp.com wrote: Let's not forget, HC was a TCP/IP stack away from BEING a first browser ( http://www.isegoria.net/2008/05/hypercard-what-could-have-been/), so I'm don't think it could happen again-- though of course I would be rooting for it! Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: Where does survive the inventive user ?
If I recall, HyperCard was called an erector set for Mac users, not necessarily programmers, and indeed used mostly by non-professional programmers. There was also an Xcmd for Valentina -- yes, I started using Valentina database with HyperCard -- and it worked really well but Valentina was not network based then. The depths of time :-) Valentina DB started out originally as a C++ library for Mac OS back in 1998, after several years of advanced RD by Ruslan (o, CodeWarrior!). The XCMD format was so well established then, and several products on the market supported that. There were a lot of really cool externals around back then, some of which were made by folks who are here yet today. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
From the archives: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Human+Code+Unveils+XtraNet+Technology+Enabling+Shockwave+Applications...-a018567832 Chipp Walters wrote: Yep. We wrote the first XCMD/Xtra for TCP/IP for Director. It was called XtraNet. Macromedia tried to buy it from us. -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Where-does-survive-the-inventive-user-tp3698117p3704546.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user?
I have a saying: If everyone can do it, it's not art. And even if only a few can do it, it's still not art! Bob On Jul 29, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote: If we believe that technical design can be arts relevant (my case,...), sailboats, cars or information's systems can be arts relevant ;-) it's probably why the Alan's Turing works gave the binary coding paradigm to computers, because why the Linus Torwalds initiative gave us Linux, because why John Mc Carty LISP, because the elegance of PostgresQL where Oracle is just a big sad truck..., because technical skills mainly serves visions and not the inverse... Even if xtalk is not open-source, the non technical guys whose invented xtalk, Metacard and LiveCode and we, the xtalk dev community are dependent from the open-source tools we are binding to our LC solutions. It's at least my case and i'm every day graceful about this. Le 29 juil. 2011 à 08:10, Alejandro Tejada a écrit : Could anyone show me these outstanding artistic qualities in Open Source software? -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user?
The artistry of open source may be subtle, but it's pervasive. - Sir Richard Gaskin - ;-) Le 29 juil. 2011 à 17:51, Richard Gaskin a écrit : Alejandro Tejada wrote: Thinking about inventive users and open source software... When I first read about the Open Source movement, I though that it was a group of developers that wanted to create software in the same way that an artist creates his work: A lasting work of art that trascend time because of his many outstanding and unique qualities... Hmmm, looks like I was wrong in my first impression about Open source, but just in case: Could anyone show me these outstanding artistic qualities in Open Source software? That's a very thoughtful question, Alejandro. I'm certainly no FOSS expert, and perhaps Mark Weider or David Bovill can contribute more concretely here, but that didn't stop me from writing my own offhand thoughts on this. ;) As sometimes happens during my morning coffee, that got a bit lengthy for this list, so out of respect for the readers' bandwidth here in this OT thread I posted it to the LiveCode Journal blog: http://livecodejournal.com/blog.irv?pid=1311953300.756699 -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Francis Nugent Dixon effe...@wanadoo.frwrote: Renting application use out of a cloud would be the same has handing over your wallet to a stranger. Which you already happily do right. I look in my wallet an there are a couple of notes and a couple of plastic cards. The notes represent about 0.01% of iMoney I have in my account. I can use those plastic cards to access the BankCloud and if the strangers at the Bank are willing, the machine will give me more real money on a 1 to 1 reduction of my iMoney. Sometimes I don't even have to change iMoney into real money, I just go to the shop and transfer iMoney from my account to their iMoney account which all resides in the same BankCloud. Of course I have to pay a 'rental' fee for the privilege of being able to access my iMoney at virtually any time or shop. But then again, if a stranger at the bank goes all Nick Leeson on me, the bank will collapse and my iMoney in the BankCloud will disappear like the early morning stratocumulus, leaving me without any real money. Strange what we think we'd never do. Oh, and Tim Miller, I'm just another 'no professional' still with LC, I just don't visit the LC List as often as I'd like because Life is getting more and more complicated, Time is getting shorter and shorter, and between Life, LiveCoding and reading the LiveCode Use List, reading the List is the one I've had to sacrifice. Actually two brand new brainwaves with associated stacks built in the last two weeks and I've got another problem to solve today which undoubtedly will involve a brand new stack. Love LC :-) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Kay echoes my sentiments, both with regards to time and appreciation of LC! FWIW I'm a non-pro who found Rev when version 1 was given away on the front of a computer mag, and once I got past where's the equivalent of a writeline command?? and managed hello world I found the learning curve to be pretty manageable. On 30 July 2011 10:51, Kay C Lan lan.kc.macm...@gmail.com wrote: O Oh, and Tim Miller, I'm just another 'no professional' still with LC, I just don't visit the LC List as often as I'd like because Life is getting more and more complicated, Time is getting shorter and shorter, and between Life, LiveCoding and reading the LiveCode Use List, reading the List is the one I've had to sacrifice. Actually two brand new brainwaves with associated stacks built in the last two weeks and I've got another problem to solve today which undoubtedly will involve a brand new stack. Love LC :-) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Hi Chipp, Could help if you could use Livecode inside OpenOffice as scripting language, just like they use Python? Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Where-does-survive-the-inventive-user-tp3698117p3701012.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user?
Dear All, Computer programming is born with the talent of a few designers capable of creating paterns accessible to smaller processors. That was more than fifty years ago and any computer program was running in the pure logic of a Turing machine. In the late 80's, Apple, Oracle, IBM and others were afraid that the increased performance of hardware and ultra high level programming languages gives rise to a breed of ultra creative designers and developers capable to break their market control and distribution software rules. They fight since then to manipulate the developers and lock them into the roles of pure technical performers. They fear that developers become production program artists and writers, free of their intentions and fear the creative quality and performance results of their achievements. I sincerely believe that their desire to control the freedom of initiative and economy of means - that is dear to all those who have already understood that the technique is a simple tool for creativity - will fail like all the idiot strategies whose, before them, thought they would manipulate for their own interests only the market of painting, literature and music by controlling the manufacture of brushes, paper production and ownership of concert halls. They sought to turn away the best functional programming and procedural languages in trying to intoxicant us with the supposed superiority of the sterile logic of the UML and object-oriented programming methodologies. I truly believe they will soon fail and that cloud computing is one of the last rounds they seize to lock consumers and developers in their net monopolistic business as bankers try to lock in sheep production the yoke of the proletarianization of the agricultural world. They force us to realize that the ways we through the web and are sharing our knowledge with each other helps us all to become designers and artists of the information age. There is too much to be done for supporters of the lowest common denominator of market control by the monopolistic structure of supply to prevent us do as we please in the interest of any particular customer. The cloud is just a hollow phishing marketing idea for lambda. Saas and Web development is fortunately too rich and no one needs to prevent us from making it the largest territory of conceptual and creative freedom. We have to be proud to position ourselves away from all attempts at market manipulation as the writers of the information economy. The global economic crisis is our ally. Customers also reflect and begin to understand what we can offer them by selling or renting them the information systems they need rather than selling their prices and software that stretch their budgets without ever reaching their needs for the next five years. Programming for the Web with LiveCode desktop, LiveCode server and the LiveCode web plugin, with SunnYperl (Unicode, SSL,Oracle,...), with RevIgniter, with the open-source DB, demons, etc... and all those wonderful libraries and methodologies that we share since the first steps of the xTalk programming birth makes us very special birds. Thank you All. Thank you for continuing to work and act in a spirit very similar which animates our colleagues of the open source community. Apple, Oracle, IBM or Microsoft don't have any interest to oppose to those who, through their ideas and generosity, are more than ever, working to develop the economic models of the post-crisis information age. Friendly yours, Pierre PS : When you says, Andre, that mobile computing is consumer computing. i can just applaud and i hope that our sweet mothership will invest and become stronger and stronger over the years because the LC desktop and server products line + associated services. Le 26 juil. 2011 à 21:08, Andre Garzia a écrit : mobile computing is consumer computing. Developers and inventive users will keep on platforms that allow them to develop stuff. It means that slowly, those users will move towards freedom so even though mobile computing will be ubiquitous, you will find the developers and inventive users using something else where they can actually develop stuff unrestricted. They will probably be on linux... On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Alejandro Tejada capellan2...@gmail.comwrote: Hi all, Today, I read again this article by Dan Shafer: http://www.danshaferblog.com/inventive-users-need-help-on-the-ithings Many obvious questions arise from this article: Does latest versions of Livecode fill this niche? Is programming for mobile so easy (using Livecode) that anyone that wants to, could do it? Did anyone here knows someone who actually started learning programming after buying one of the mobile platforms? Today, I woke with an strange idea: Mobile computing will displace desktop computing for most everyday computing tasks in a really short time (5 to 10 years). Tell me if this
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Count me. On Jul 27, 2011, at 6:25 PM, Timothy Miller wrote: It's gradually dawning on me that programmers like me have become rather rare. Fewer and fewer non-professionals on this list, as far as I can tell. I don't understand why, seems like a shame. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user?
That is a way of looking at things I suppose. But as I have said before, the purpose of a business is to make money. That may offend some, but if Apple does not succeed, then someone else will. They will be the bogie then. If RunRev had not succeeded then we would not have our beloved Livecode. The Mothership (by which I think you mean RunRev) did succeeded, and so we have the opportunity to succeed. Large business enterprises always seem to some to be evil giants, until we as individuals succeed fairly nicely, and find that we are now working for one, or better yet are the CEO of one. Bob On Jul 28, 2011, at 4:30 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote: I sincerely believe that their desire to control the freedom of initiative and economy of means - that is dear to all those who have already understood that the technique is a simple tool for creativity - will fail like all the idiot strategies whose, before them, thought they would manipulate for their own interests only the market of painting, literature and music by controlling the manufacture of brushes, paper production and ownership of concert halls. They sought to turn away the best functional programming and procedural languages in trying to intoxicant us with the supposed superiority of the sterile logic of the UML and object-oriented programming methodologies. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
A one-seat, one-platform version of LiveCode is quite affordable. Here's a scheme that might draw new, untrained users. Make LC into some kind of a game. It starts with most of LC's features crippled or hidden. To unlock features you have to solve challenges. Step one, obviously -- Make a field, a button, and a script that puts hello world into the field. That unlocks one or two more commands, properties, objects, or whatever. Then you've got to do something a little harder, and so on. Lots of hints, prompts and mini-tutorials along the way. A moderately intelligent user who goofs around with it now and then could get pretty skilled within six months, or less. I'm not in favor of Open Source for LC, for the usual reasons. It might be interesting to see what happens if a crippled form of LC is sold as a game, as described above, at a rather low price, perhaps free, with copyrights protected. It could catch, on virally perhaps. Those who become skilled and remain interested could upgrade to the full-featured version. There's no obvious reason the HyperCard revolution could not happen again. I'd love to see it. I meet lots of young people who want to learn to program. Most of them don't even know what that means, or they think running a malware-dection app and reinstalling the OS is programming. When I was first learning hyperCard, I had a HyperCard stack that taught you how to use HyperCard. That's how I started. Don't remember much about it. Cheers, Tim On Jul 28, 2011, at 9:05 AM, Bob Sneidar wrote: I'm going to say doom. I purchased the lifetime On-Rev and the 5 year license when it was offered, partly because I want to see these guys thrive. If they do not, then sooner or later Livecode is destined to fail. So I invested in them when they needed capital to grow. If they had stock I would probably by some. What if they had faltered back in the Revolution 2.0 days? I hate to think of having to do things without a datagrid, without behaviors that make things like sqlYoga possible. That was HUGE! Also, it's the focus on making Livecode a particular thing, and not what a lot of other developers want it to be that lends itself to continued innovation along the right lines and I think Open Source would not maintain that vision. RunRev takes great care to prevent making other people's past projects obsolete by ensuring the way things currently work will work tomorrow (sometimes to my disappointment). I do not think that Open Sourcing Livecode would preserve that consideration for backwards compatibility. Bob ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Timothy, I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Apple, with all it's marketing prowess, and free version of HC, and included on every Mac, with no competition from the Internet, and seriously hyped by all, still couldn't make it work. Let's not forget, HC was a TCP/IP stack away from BEING a first browser ( http://www.isegoria.net/2008/05/hypercard-what-could-have-been/), so I'm don't think it could happen again-- though of course I would be rooting for it! On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Timothy Miller gand...@doctortimothymiller.com wrote: There's no obvious reason the HyperCard revolution could not happen again. I'd love to see it. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
I don't agree that Hypercard didn't work. It worked amazingly! Just not as a mainstream development environment, but it was never marketed or presented as such. A lot of people wrote Xcmd's for it. One guy wrote an Xcmd that allowed you to access a dBase database file and read and write to it. It wasn't very good though, very buggy, but the concept was sound. I think Hypercard happened too early, and lacked so many things for so long that people eventually went elsewhere. It took them forever to include color support, and then it wasn't very good, and Apple had already been trying to dump it for some time. It was a half hearted effort on Apple's part that really spelled the doom of Hypercard, and who can blame them? It wasn't exactly a profit center! Bob On Jul 28, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: Timothy, I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Apple, with all it's marketing prowess, and free version of HC, and included on every Mac, with no competition from the Internet, and seriously hyped by all, still couldn't make it work. Let's not forget, HC was a TCP/IP stack away from BEING a first browser ( http://www.isegoria.net/2008/05/hypercard-what-could-have-been/), so I'm don't think it could happen again-- though of course I would be rooting for it! On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Timothy Miller gand...@doctortimothymiller.com wrote: There's no obvious reason the HyperCard revolution could not happen again. I'd love to see it. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
I know, I tried to do it myself in the early 90s. TCP/IP on the mac was quite unreliable. On 28 July 2011 15:00, Chipp Walters ch...@chipp.com wrote: Let's not forget, HC was a TCP/IP stack away from BEING a first browser ( http://www.isegoria.net/2008/05/hypercard-what-could-have-been/), so I'm don't think it could happen again-- though of course I would be rooting for it! Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
What Bob said. Tim On Jul 28, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: I don't agree that Hypercard didn't work. It worked amazingly! Just not as a mainstream development environment, but it was never marketed or presented as such. A lot of people wrote Xcmd's for it. One guy wrote an Xcmd that allowed you to access a dBase database file and read and write to it. It wasn't very good though, very buggy, but the concept was sound. I think Hypercard happened too early, and lacked so many things for so long that people eventually went elsewhere. It took them forever to include color support, and then it wasn't very good, and Apple had already been trying to dump it for some time. It was a half hearted effort on Apple's part that really spelled the doom of Hypercard, and who can blame them? It wasn't exactly a profit center! Bob ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
On 28.07.2011 at 15:50 Uhr -0700 Bob Sneidar apparently wrote: I don't agree that Hypercard didn't work. It worked amazingly! Just not as a mainstream development environment, but it was never marketed or presented as such. A lot of people wrote Xcmd's for it. One guy wrote an Xcmd that allowed you to access a dBase database file and read and write to it. It wasn't very good though, very buggy, but the concept was sound. If I recall, HyperCard was called an erector set for Mac users, not necessarily programmers, and indeed used mostly by non-professional programmers. There was also an Xcmd for Valentina -- yes, I started using Valentina database with HyperCard -- and it worked really well but Valentina was not network based then. Robert ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
In the old days, Hypercard was. like a viral pandemic, infected the world because it was bundled with every Macintosh. It was offered like a promotion, a possibly valuable coupon one gets in the mail, which you will at least read before throwing out, And it became a nerd fad, with many hundreds of thousands of people trying it out. Certainly only a small fraction became enamored; many of those are reading this post. Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill battle to engage people who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it. Worse, these days, the mindset is that everything comes in small ready-to-go packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just don't think about building stuff, especially from raw materials. I used to, though. Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that expectation, a far cry from reading a bank of eight lights telling you what byte was currently passing by. LC should be taught in the ninth grade in every school in the world. Craig Newman -Original Message- From: Francis Nugent Dixon effe...@wanadoo.fr To: use-livecode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Sent: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 2:42 am Subject: Where does survive the inventive user ? Alejandro asks some potent questions . Question 1 - Is programming so easy . ? I think we should ask the question Is programming a niche occupation ? During my early career, practically everybody I knew was a programmer (birds of a feather flock together ?) Now I am out of the industry (retired), outside of the LiveCode forum, I don't know anybody who programs (although most of my acquaintances have computers and Google all day, they don't WRITE programs.) Programming is a mentality, and there aren't many of us who have this mentality (even to make money from it). Although LiveCode is a great incentive for non-programmers to have a go , programming is limiited to a strange mind-form which even I cannot define ! The question should be - What is the VISIBILTY of LiveCode to the man in the street who has never even thought about programming ? And the answer is NONE. The chances of anybody moving in to programming are about the same as being struck by lightning. Question 2 Did anyone know someone . ? I would think that buying a mobile platform (iPhone, iPad), and learning to program are two ideas so far apart, as to be unlikely. I do not know anyone who has started programming because of this mobile technology and the platforms thereon. In a recent thread on the forum I voiced my No Way Baby intent to NOT go to mobile computing, although I wrote my first program more than 50 years ago, and I still program EVERY day. The cost is far too high, and the returns are doubtful ! I am a rare bird who now programs for fun. Question 3 Will mobile computing displace desktop computing ? This reminds me of the 1980's question Will Desktop computing ever displace Mainframe Computing ? A lot of people said no in them days. Industry has been talking about cloud computing for years, and IS slowly moving towards it. But, although I may accept having my data in a cloud, I will always want my apps to be in my hand, so I can have control over them. Renting application use out of a cloud would be the same has handing over your wallet to a stranger. You can see which direction Apple is going. They want to charge you for the use of YOUR OWN computer, and then for storing your data in their cloud, and then for using their applications from their cloud. That could cost you an arm and a leg. All my communication in the hands of a stranger ? It's bad enough already! God help us all in the future ! The problem is - it's not hype - it's tomorrows computing, and I don't like the way the wind is blowing . The days when you rented an application, and you got the computer for free may return. When computers become so dirt cheap that there is no big profit to make, those guys up there have to think of a new way to get your money. We will soon be paying more for communication facilities than we are spending on food (si ce n'est deja fait !, as they say here)! Nothing should ever be done for the first time ! -Francis PS. How about the question When will we be grafting micro-chips into the brain to allow us instant and global communication, and complex problem solving and decision making ? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill battle to engage people who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it. Worse, these days, the mindset is that everything comes in small ready-to-go packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just don't think about building stuff, especially from raw materials. I used to, though. Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that expectation, a far cry from reading a bank of eight lights telling you what byte was currently passing by. I think that began long before the iDevices. There are still creative kids out there, just sadly, far fewer of them. I also see an equal dwindling of interest in the adults that engage them (Im not implying anything about you, just look around at the next parent-involved event at your children's school to see what I am talking about). Products are easier to sell if there is instant gradification. In software for example, you should design your product so that it rewards your user no less than every five minutes when its in its demo mode. This reward can be subtle or not, but it should deliver a sense of satisfaction. By no means is this sort of thing relegated to software. It is a lot of hard work to light the fires of competitiveness and creativity in kids in this consumerist society. I know many intelligent, well educated parents who for whatever reason end up with a bunch of high school drop out Lotus Eaters living in their basement. But I also know a much, much smaller number of families that raise competitive, creative and intellectually engaged kids too. They exist - just in much smaller numbers. It is a lot easier to sell to the Lotus Eaters though. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Personally I spend a whole lot of time futzing with little things in Livecode, where I ought to be focused on creating the user interface or writing the code. I will give you an example: I am creating an interface with buttons that have graphic icons. In order to use the icons I have to first import the image into Livecode, note the ID, and then set the icon of the button to that property. Ok so far so good. But I ALSO want the button to look different when the user clicks. Okay, open image in an editor, modify it, save it as something else, import, wash, rinse repeat. Now I want the button to look different when disabled. Ok, blah blah yadda yadda wash rinse repeat. There are six of these I could potentially use. No complaints so far. I get it. Now I see that my 12 buttons are all too big! Hmmm... says I to myself, sizing the button may scale the icon too! Alas, no way. Maybe sizing the icon will work. But damn I hid the images! Okay show hidden objects, (there are 36 and they are cluttering the page) scale image, HEY the button icon scales too. Great! (wash rinse repeat 36 times). Save stack quit LC go have lunch come back open project DAMN! All the icons on my interface have reverted to their original size!!! Spend another hour at the laundry washing rinsing and repeating. Yes I know there are ways to do things which can minimize this impact, but the casual user/programmer is not going to know that. There are lots of examples I can give which puts unsuspecting newbies in this quandary. The reason we who remain put up with it is because we all know that in the long run, no matter how tedious it can get, LC is still almost infinitely easier to use to develop, debug and distribute cross platform with than C++ or Java. I learned Pascual up to the point of working with a GUI, and staring up at what appeared to me to be an insurmountable cliff (for a hobbyist developer) with the assurance that the next OS that came out would require scaling at least a part of that mountain over again, I said to myself, No thank you. Hypercard (and now Livecode) have restored my faith that I CAN produce a useful app in a reasonable time and still have a life. That being said, when you subject a casual user to the nuances of Livecode, the frustrations can be enough to put them off, maybe forever. My first attempt to make a database kind of app in Revolution involved using the database connection stuff built into the old fields. After days of frustrating inability to get the daggum thing to work right, I posted on this list and got the response, Yeah, that has never worked very well. You should probably script it. My suggestion to my first example would be having the option to set the icon of a button to a file on the hard drive, and then be able to scale the icon in the button itself, and have that scaling stick. My suggestion to the second example would be to have a real database connection interface in each stack where, once the connection settings to the database were entered and I was connected, I could refer to the data as objects with properties like any other object in Livecode. Put cellData(theRow, theColumn, theTable, theDBConnection) into field fldFirstname Put TableData(theColumnList, theRowcount, theStartingRow) into field fldTableField Wouldn't THAT be lovely? (Yes Trevor's sqlYoga goes a long way towards this but not quite all the way, great as it is.) I guess I am asking for most of the hard work to be already done for me eh? But isn't that the nature of a Rapid Application Development environment? The question being posed in this thread, seems to me to be, how much of most of the work should RunRev do in order to woo the casual developer? Or have they gone far enough, indeed quite a long way already, and already have the market base they were shooting for, i.e.. us? In other words, it's not a question of principle or implementation, but of degree. Bob On Jul 27, 2011, at 5:35 AM, dunb...@aol.com wrote: In the old days, Hypercard was. like a viral pandemic, infected the world because it was bundled with every Macintosh. It was offered like a promotion, a possibly valuable coupon one gets in the mail, which you will at least read before throwing out, And it became a nerd fad, with many hundreds of thousands of people trying it out. Certainly only a small fraction became enamored; many of those are reading this post. Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill battle to engage people who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it. Worse, these days, the mindset is that everything comes in small ready-to-go packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just don't think about building stuff, especially from raw materials. I used to, though. Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that expectation, a far cry from reading a bank of eight lights telling you what byte
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Hi, Craig said : who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it Amen to that ! This was my point - Who IS exposed to LiveCode ? Maybe we can get some input from the LiveCode Commercial Department. How do you go about tickling a non-LiveCode-User ? Certainly not on an upturned dustbin in Trafalgar Square -Francis Nothing should ever be done for the first time ! ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
It's hard to get people who know non-scripted languages to even look at Livecode, because they think that something simpler than what they already know has to suffer from an equal lack of speed, usability, features, security etc. Even still, if you can convince them that they can produce professional quality apps in a fraction of the time, they remember how long it took to learn their present flavor of whatever, and wrongly project the same time and difficulty to learning another language. I would say the best way is to actually produce polished apps and then showcase them, say in an online magazine that has that target audience. Talk about how much time it took to develop the app. Put example scripts in the article. Give links to some downloadable iPhone/iPad apps as examples of mobile apps. They need to get their hands on polished apps that do something well, and then be told This took me 2 weeks to produce. Otherwise it's just another article in another publication among thousands every day. And I wouldn't mention Hypercard or the other supersets of that much. That alone is enough to give the wrong impression that Livecode is not very robust. Oh yes, and perhaps have development set a couple weeks aside to deal with some of the quirkier Livecode issues that have been around for a while. No one wants to burn away their 30 day trial futzing with IDE eccentricities. Bob On Jul 27, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Francis Nugent Dixon wrote: Hi, Craig said : who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it Amen to that ! This was my point - Who IS exposed to LiveCode ? Maybe we can get some input from the LiveCode Commercial Department. How do you go about tickling a non-LiveCode-User ? Certainly not on an upturned dustbin in Trafalgar Square -Francis Nothing should ever be done for the first time ! ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Just to let you know that you're not alone -- I'm a similar LC user, started with HC (actually bought and read through Danny Goodman's book even before I bought my first Mac), developed a set of stacks to manage my clinical notes, incorporated more and more features, moved it over to LC a number of years ago, at which point with all of LC's capability the feature set grew even larger, now a full-fledged practice management tool, with 45 substacks, over 32,000 lines of script, couldn't manage without it. I'm not a programmer, just picked it up on the side. I have no idea how you market to people like me, but I suspect there are lots of us scattered around. -- Peter Peter M. Brigham pmb...@gmail.com http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig On Jul 27, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Timothy Miller wrote: I've never been a computer professional. Not even close. I taught myself to write Basic programs for my Atari 64, mostly out of curiosity. Around 1984 I taught myself HyperCard. I wrote a variety of applications for home and business use. A pretty good phonics tutorial for my kids, among others. And I gradually cobbled together a complex set of HyperCard stacks, which I use every day to run my business. They're crude, kludgy and ugly, but they work. Many thousands of lines of script, no idea how many thousands. When I need a new feature, I write it. Often, it's working reliably in less than an hour. It's been years since I saw an error message. Sometimes I discover clever and useful features I wrote and forgot about. When HyperCard became obsolete, I moved over to Runtime Revolution, which was rather an ordeal, because RR was far more complex. It's comfortable now. And now it's LiveCode, but I've barely noticed the change. LiveCode does many things I don't understand, but that's not a problem. I still write stacks for my own use. I recently written a stack to help me study and identify photos and songs of birds. Also, I'm taking notes for a book and I've written a stack to help me organize the notes. I will eventually use the same stack to help me develop the book -- probably some kind of a one-paragraph-per-card arrangement with many summarizing, indexing, re-sequencing, search and notation features. I tweak old features and invent new ones as I go along. None of this seems very difficult. It's a gradual transition from HyperCard. I'm not really a nerd -- computers don't fascinate me all that much. I write a stack when the time invested justifies the functionality of the final product. It's gradually dawning on me that programmers like me have become rather rare. Fewer and fewer non-professionals on this list, as far as I can tell. I don't understand why, seems like a shame. Many people have use for the kind of functionality an amateur and dabbler can get out of LiveCode, and it isn't that hard to do. Admittedly, HyperCard was easier, simply because it was less complex. I've wondered if LiveCode might be more approachable if it had some kind of dumb mode, sort of like the old userLevel system in HyperCard. Probably won't happen though. FWIW... Tim On Jul 27, 2011, at 5:35 AM, dunb...@aol.com wrote: In the old days, Hypercard was. like a viral pandemic, infected the world because it was bundled with every Macintosh. It was offered like a promotion, a possibly valuable coupon one gets in the mail, which you will at least read before throwing out, And it became a nerd fad, with many hundreds of thousands of people trying it out. Certainly only a small fraction became enamored; many of those are reading this post. Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill battle to engage people who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it. Worse, these days, the mindset is that everything comes in small ready-to-go packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just don't think about building stuff, especially from raw materials. I used to, though. Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that expectation, a far cry from reading a bank of eight lights telling you what byte was currently passing by. LC should be taught in the ninth grade in every school in the world. Craig Newman -Original Message- From: Francis Nugent Dixon effe...@wanadoo.fr To: use-livecode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Sent: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 2:42 am Subject: Where does survive the inventive user ? Alejandro asks some potent questions . Question 1 - Is programming so easy . ? I think we should ask the question Is programming a niche occupation ? During my early career, practically everybody I knew was a programmer (birds of a feather flock together ?) Now I am out of the industry (retired), outside of the LiveCode forum, I don't know anybody who programs (although most of my acquaintances have computers and Google all day,
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Hi Francis, Francis Nugent Dixon wrote: Question 1 - Is programming so easy . ? I think we should ask the question Is programming a niche occupation ? I understand programming as an exercise in Logical thinking. Yes, I know, trust me, I know. Everyday we see so many counterexamples, that we actually doubt that Logical and Thinking are used in the same phrase anymore. My personal take is that programming IS NOT a niche occupation, given the ubiquity of computers in modern society. If for any reason, computers stop functioning in the future, the outcome would be obvious... Francis Nugent Dixon wrote: Programming is a mentality, and there aren't many of us who have this mentality (even to make money from it). Although LiveCode is a great incentive for non-programmers to have a go , programming is limited to a strange mind-form which even I cannot define! Programming should be associated with problem-solving. Just another tool for solving everyday tasks. Francis Nugent Dixon wrote: The question should be - What is the VISIBILTY of LiveCode to the man in the street who has never even thought about programming ? And the answer is NONE. The chances of anybody moving in to programming are about the same as being struck by lightning. Actually this is a good visual metaphor. Instead of a lightning bulb, struck by lightning... :-D Francis Nugent Dixon wrote: Question 3 Will mobile computing displace desktop computing ? [snip] You can see which direction Apple is going. They want to charge you for the use of YOUR OWN computer, and then for storing your data in their cloud, and then for using their applications from their cloud. That could cost you an arm and a leg. All my communication in the hands of a stranger ? It's bad enough already! God help us all in the future ! The problem is - it's not hype - it's tomorrows computing, and I don't like the way the wind is blowing . Me neither. In the name of who knows what, some bright bulbs would decide who, how, when and how much each one could use their allowed computer time... Francis Nugent Dixon wrote: The days when you rented an application, and you got the computer for free may return. When computers become so dirt cheap that there is no big profit to make, those guys up there have to think of a new way to get your money. We will soon be paying more for communication facilities than we are spending on food (si ce n'est deja fait !, as they say here)! Well, in some places, communications are more heavily taxed than food: 28% vs 16% Francis Nugent Dixon wrote: PS. How about the question When will we be grafting micro-chips into the brain to allow us instant and global communication, and complex problem solving and decision making ? Like Neuromancer? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprawl_trilogy or Ghost in the Shell? ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell Hopefully Not! :-D Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Where-does-survive-the-inventive-user-tp3698117p3700292.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?
Craig, You make some excellent points, most all I agree with. I was one of the few who had a little experience in Fortran and Basic, but jumped at the HC opportunity-- because it was there. Today, I believe there is so much more 'there' for folks. Tremendous interactive gaming consumes some. Others see a future in learning all things web. More serious folks jump into XCode and other serious frameworks. There just isn't enough exposure to the wonders of xTalk languages except by those already converted. You are right, too, about LC being taught in every school-- but it's a huge tough sell. Perhaps if LC was open sourced it would have more of a chance? But then, how would RR get paid? Of course some Open Source apps have figured out how to have a 'free' and 'commercial' version. Still, by Open Sourcing LC, would we be dooming our favorite dev environment or guaranteeing it's success? On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 7:35 AM, dunb...@aol.com wrote: In the old days, Hypercard was. like a viral pandemic, infected the world because it was bundled with every Macintosh. It was offered like a promotion, a possibly valuable coupon one gets in the mail, which you will at least read before throwing out, And it became a nerd fad, with many hundreds of thousands of people trying it out. Certainly only a small fraction became enamored; many of those are reading this post. Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill battle to engage people who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it. Worse, these days, the mindset is that everything comes in small ready-to-go packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just don't think about building stuff, especially from raw materials. I used to, though. Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that expectation, a far cry from reading a bank of eight lights telling you what byte was currently passing by. LC should be taught in the ninth grade in every school in the world. Craig Newman -Original Message- From: Francis Nugent Dixon effe...@wanadoo.fr To: use-livecode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Sent: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 2:42 am Subject: Where does survive the inventive user ? Alejandro asks some potent questions . Question 1 - Is programming so easy . ? I think we should ask the question Is programming a niche occupation ? During my early career, practically everybody I knew was a programmer (birds of a feather flock together ?) Now I am out of the industry (retired), outside of the LiveCode forum, I don't know anybody who programs (although most of my acquaintances have computers and Google all day, they don't WRITE programs.) Programming is a mentality, and there aren't many of us who have this mentality (even to make money from it). Although LiveCode is a great incentive for non-programmers to have a go , programming is limiited to a strange mind-form which even I cannot define ! The question should be - What is the VISIBILTY of LiveCode to the man in the street who has never even thought about programming ? And the answer is NONE. The chances of anybody moving in to programming are about the same as being struck by lightning. Question 2 Did anyone know someone . ? I would think that buying a mobile platform (iPhone, iPad), and learning to program are two ideas so far apart, as to be unlikely. I do not know anyone who has started programming because of this mobile technology and the platforms thereon. In a recent thread on the forum I voiced my No Way Baby intent to NOT go to mobile computing, although I wrote my first program more than 50 years ago, and I still program EVERY day. The cost is far too high, and the returns are doubtful ! I am a rare bird who now programs for fun. Question 3 Will mobile computing displace desktop computing ? This reminds me of the 1980's question Will Desktop computing ever displace Mainframe Computing ? A lot of people said no in them days. Industry has been talking about cloud computing for years, and IS slowly moving towards it. But, although I may accept having my data in a cloud, I will always want my apps to be in my hand, so I can have control over them. Renting application use out of a cloud would be the same has handing over your wallet to a stranger. You can see which direction Apple is going. They want to charge you for the use of YOUR OWN computer, and then for storing your data in their cloud, and then for using their applications from their cloud. That could cost you an arm and a leg. All my communication in the hands of a stranger ? It's bad enough already! God help us all in the future ! The problem is - it's not hype - it's tomorrows computing, and I don't like the way the wind is blowing . The days when you rented an application, and you got the computer for free may return. When computers become so dirt cheap that there is no big profit to make, those guys
Re: Where does survive the inventive user?
mobile computing is consumer computing. Developers and inventive users will keep on platforms that allow them to develop stuff. It means that slowly, those users will move towards freedom so even though mobile computing will be ubiquitous, you will find the developers and inventive users using something else where they can actually develop stuff unrestricted. They will probably be on linux... On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Alejandro Tejada capellan2...@gmail.comwrote: Hi all, Today, I read again this article by Dan Shafer: http://www.danshaferblog.com/inventive-users-need-help-on-the-ithings Many obvious questions arise from this article: Does latest versions of Livecode fill this niche? Is programming for mobile so easy (using Livecode) that anyone that wants to, could do it? Did anyone here knows someone who actually started learning programming after buying one of the mobile platforms? Today, I woke with an strange idea: Mobile computing will displace desktop computing for most everyday computing tasks in a really short time (5 to 10 years). Tell me if this idea has a real basis or is just an echo of the hype that surrounds the latest products. Thanks in advance! Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Where-does-survive-the-inventive-user-tp3696711p3696711.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
