Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[J. Landman Gay]

On 6/3/2015 7:53 PM, Dr. Hawkins wrote:

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 4:02 PM, J. Landman Gay 
wrote:


Script length may have something to do with the editor delays. It takes
more time to process text in v7.

I'm currently converting a stack where no scripts are longer than a few
hundred lines (most are under 500) and I see no delays.



I have multiple scripts several thousand lines long.

But the delays occur even when no processing is required (e.g., immediately
after stack load)


The scripts still need to be processed on launch, if only so the engine 
can see whether it needs to do anything. Opening a stack produces dozens 
of event messages and the scripts need to be processed and interpreted 
so that LC knows whether to execute any scripted responses.


Try opening a one-card stack with nothing but a single button and a 
simple mouseUp handler. See if there's a difference.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 4:02 PM, J. Landman Gay 
wrote:

> Script length may have something to do with the editor delays. It takes
> more time to process text in v7.
>
> I'm currently converting a stack where no scripts are longer than a few
> hundred lines (most are under 500) and I see no delays.
>

I have multiple scripts several thousand lines long.

But the delays occur even when no processing is required (e.g., immediately
after stack load)




-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 4:02 PM, J. Landman Gay 
wrote:

> Script length may have something to do with the editor delays. It takes
> more time to process text in v7.
>
> I'm currently converting a stack where no scripts are longer than a few
> hundred lines (most are under 500) and I see no delays.
>

I have multiple scripts several thousand lines long.

But the delays occur even when no processing is required (e.g., immediately
after stack load, once the system is settled, and before a line has been
changed)




-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Dave Kilroy]

Hi Jacque - just so you know the two guys at the weekend on win7 and win8
machines were both working with brand new stack files and the longest script
ended up at 110 lines - and they had problems right from the off...




J. Landman Gay wrote
> On 6/1/2015 4:38 PM, Dave Kilroy wrote:
>> I have no idea why some people seem to get on ok with v7 and others don't
>> -
>> and hope RunRev manage to figure out what is going on...
> 
> Script length may have something to do with the editor delays. It takes 
> more time to process text in v7.
> 
> I'm currently converting a stack where no scripts are longer than a few 
> hundred lines (most are under 500) and I see no delays.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | 

> jacque@

> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[J. Landman Gay]

On 6/1/2015 4:38 PM, Dave Kilroy wrote:

I have no idea why some people seem to get on ok with v7 and others don't -
and hope RunRev manage to figure out what is going on...


Script length may have something to do with the editor delays. It takes 
more time to process text in v7.


I'm currently converting a stack where no scripts are longer than a few 
hundred lines (most are under 500) and I see no delays.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Dave Kilroy]

This is not to say that the solution for people suffering with a 'bad
relationship between their computer and v7' is restarts like I describe -
that works for me and I'm sure that people suffering multiple
crashes/freezes have tried this and many other 'solutions'  

I have no idea why some people seem to get on ok with v7 and others don't -
and hope RunRev manage to figure out what is going on...

Kind regards

Dave



Dave Kilroy wrote
> Sounds roughly the same - I've learnt that as soon as v7 seems unhappy the
> best thing is to quit and restart - but it only goes wonky for me
> following an error brought on by my code and is ok the rest of the time
> 
> However, I've seen other people suffering with it in ways you mention...
> :(
> 
> 
> Dr. Hawkins wrote
>> "becomes" sluggish
>> 
>> Mine *starts* with a 2s or so delay to switch panes in the editor . . .
>> 
>> 
>>> (when this happens I quit and restart LiveCode and everything is
>>> fine) - but apart from that I can't remember the last time the IDE
>>> crashed/froze on me. It starts very quick on my systems (Yosemite &
>>> Win7) -
>>> but not quite as quick as older versions...
>>>
>> 
>> I get at least a couple of IDE crashes on any given day of writing.
>> Sometimes, I can see it becoming less stable (e.g., when clicking for red
>> dots reads 2-4 lines off) and quit.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
>> (702) 508-8462
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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Dave Kilroy]

Sounds roughly the same - I've learnt that as soon as v7 seems unhappy the
best thing is to quit and restart - but it only goes wonky for me following
an error brought on by my code and is ok the rest of the time

However, I've seen other people suffering with it in ways you mention... :(




Dr. Hawkins wrote
> "becomes" sluggish
> 
> Mine *starts* with a 2s or so delay to switch panes in the editor . . .
> 
> 
>> (when this happens I quit and restart LiveCode and everything is
>> fine) - but apart from that I can't remember the last time the IDE
>> crashed/froze on me. It starts very quick on my systems (Yosemite & Win7)
>> -
>> but not quite as quick as older versions...
>>
> 
> I get at least a couple of IDE crashes on any given day of writing.
> Sometimes, I can see it becoming less stable (e.g., when clicking for red
> dots reads 2-4 lines off) and quit.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> (702) 508-8462
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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Dave Kilroy 
wrote:

>
> I say 'in general' because v7 seems to be more fragile than earlier
> versions
> because sometimes when I hit an error in my code the IDE becomes sluggish
> afterwards


"becomes" sluggish

Mine *starts* with a 2s or so delay to switch panes in the editor . . .


> (when this happens I quit and restart LiveCode and everything is
> fine) - but apart from that I can't remember the last time the IDE
> crashed/froze on me. It starts very quick on my systems (Yosemite & Win7) -
> but not quite as quick as older versions...
>

I get at least a couple of IDE crashes on any given day of writing.
Sometimes, I can see it becoming less stable (e.g., when clicking for red
dots reads 2-4 lines off) and quit.


-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Dave Kilroy]

Similar to Alex I too have been using v7 for everything I do (except for a
couple of projects) since about 7.0.3 - and in general have been doing so
without problems.

I say 'in general' because v7 seems to be more fragile than earlier versions
because sometimes when I hit an error in my code the IDE becomes sluggish
afterwards (when this happens I quit and restart LiveCode and everything is
fine) - but apart from that I can't remember the last time the IDE
crashed/froze on me. It starts very quick on my systems (Yosemite & Win7) -
but not quite as quick as older versions...

However I have seen other people using v7 experiencing slow-startup and
fairly regular freezes/crashes (for example I was doing a LC workshop at the
weekend and two people running windows experienced freezes/crashes every 30
minutes or so - but both did successfully create an app and got everything
to work). But other times I've seen it work fine on people's systems...

In fact I'm also thinking of using LC8 full-time. LCB looks good and I 'get'
that it will be used to leap-frog some of LC's current woes - but I simply
haven't had time to play with it yet and think the only time I'll learn is
if I'm using it day-in-day-out. I'm thinking v8 is basically v7 with LCB and
widgets added and if this is so then I think I'll make the jump. Trevor,
Richard do you have any views on this?



Richard Gaskin wrote
> Alex Tweedly wrote:
> 
>> I too have used only v7 for everything I've done recently for myself (no
>> released products - just stuff I do for myself and friends/family). I've
>> been still using v6 when I don't control it all myself.
>>
>> I'm happy to say I've had no crashes, no serious IDE problems and few
>> performance issues (which were all already reported or known).
> 
> Good to hear.  At least Trevor and I aren't alone.





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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Richard Gaskin]

Alex Tweedly wrote:


I too have used only v7 for everything I've done recently for myself (no
released products - just stuff I do for myself and friends/family). I've
been still using v6 when I don't control it all myself.

I'm happy to say I've had no crashes, no serious IDE problems and few
performance issues (which were all already reported or known).


Good to hear.  At least Trevor and I aren't alone.


I'm no RQCC expert - is there a simple recipe to find all (or most) v7
performance related bug reports ?


I don't think so, because there's no guarantee that submitters will use 
easily searchable language.


The search options are pretty broad, though, so I was at least able to 
come up with a search for all open issues where any v7 has been listed 
as the target:




(Mind those line wraps )

First in that list is one from you, which does thankfully include 
"performance" in its summary:



Nice demo stack - not only clearly illustrates the issue, but fun to watch.

I've added a confirmation there for Linux, and some additional notes 
that may be helpful.


Looking forward to hearing from the team on this one - it's a very 
interesting case, since both v7.0.5 and the noticeably faster v6.7.5 
both use the Skia graphics subsystem.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Manager
 rich...@livecode.org

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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Alex Tweedly]

On 31/05/2015 00:07, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Currently everything I do in LiveCode is done in v7.0.5.

I too have used only v7 for everything I've done recently for myself (no 
released products - just stuff I do for myself and friends/family). I've 
been still using v6 when I don't control it all myself.


I'm happy to say I've had no crashes, no serious IDE problems and few 
performance issues (which were all already reported or known).


So I've now started to go through some of my older stacks that I think 
might be more performance-dependent to see if I can find and report 
anything. First one I tried did indeed show a graphics performance issue 
(on Mac - so maybe due to different graphic libs rather than the 
engine)- anyway that's 15447.


I agree that focusing on specific actionable issues experienced 
firsthand is very valuable.


If there are bugs that have been submitted but not acted on and are 
holding up work without a workaround, let's identify those and get 
them resolved.


In addition to review of the current bug DB, Ben recently contacted a 
few developers to solicit such a shortlist, and as Community Manager 
I'm happy to add to that list with anything critical we can identify 
here.


I'm no RQCC expert - is there a simple recipe to find all (or most) v7 
performance related bug reports ?


Thanks
-- Alex.

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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Richard Gaskin]

Malte Brill wrote:

>> And thankfully, warts and all, none of the issues with LiveCode are
>> preventing Trevor, myself, and many others from shipping products
>> made with it.
>
> Out of interest, how many of those have you moved to use the 7 engine?

Currently everything I do in LiveCode is done in v7.0.5.


> Still there are areas where 7 is just not ready for prime time.

It would be useful to know which ones are affecting your apps.


> The more importance I see in openly discussing the issues we
> encounter. I think it does not help to point out that the current
> state works for others.

I agree that open discussion in a community is helpful, but I don't see 
the value in limiting the discussion only to what doesn't work.


I see no harm in Trevor or others noting that they're doing productive 
work with v7.  Why not allow the full scope of experience to be shared?


In light of the many posts here from folks describing things they've 
heard from others but not actually seen for themselves, any discussion 
of first-hand experience would seem welcome, even if it's as shockingly 
unfashionable as people merely having a good time. :)



> It is more helpful to try to help identifying the areas where there
> are issues which I believe aren’t that many anymore

Yes, despite the ongoing distraction of constant iOS updates, they've 
been working hard to knock off many issues for other platforms as well.



> however for a certain amount of apps being built that handful of
> things are real showstoppers.

I agree that focusing on specific actionable issues experienced 
firsthand is very valuable.


If there are bugs that have been submitted but not acted on and are 
holding up work without a workaround, let's identify those and get them 
resolved.


In addition to review of the current bug DB, Ben recently contacted a 
few developers to solicit such a shortlist, and as Community Manager I'm 
happy to add to that list with anything critical we can identify here.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Manager
 rich...@fourthworld.com


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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Malte Brill]

> And thankfully, warts and all, none of the issues with LiveCode are 
> preventing Trevor, myself, and many others from shipping products made 
> with it.
Out of interest, how many of those have you moved to use the 7 engine?

I have no interest in lamenting here. I do admire the job that has been done 
since the kickstarter and all the new shiny stuff like widgets looks rather 
good. Still there are areas where 7 is just not ready for prime time. I guess 
we will get there, especially seeing how responsive the folks at RR are at the 
moment. The more importance I see in openly discussing the issues we encounter. 
I think it does not help to point out that the current state works for others. 
It is more helpful to try to help identifying the areas where there are issues 
which I believe aren’t that many anymore (sort, filter and maybe rendering 
speed on high density displays), however for a certain amount of apps being 
built that handful of things are real showstoppers.

Best,

Malte
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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Richard Gaskin]

Mark Wieder wrote:
> The problem is that "pretty good" isn't good enough for LiveCode
> positioning itself in the marketplace, and that bodes ill for all
> of us who hope for its continued existence. We old-timers are more
> willing to accept some of the flaws, the degradations in performance,
> the long-standing bugs, the lack of features, etc. Folks
> investigating LC as a development platform won't be as forgiving.

I'd like to live in an ideal world too.  I just recognize the world 
we're in.


And thankfully, warts and all, none of the issues with LiveCode are 
preventing Trevor, myself, and many others from shipping products made 
with it.



>> If moving into the present with LiveCode 7 seems like a lot of work,
>> talk to Python 2 fans migrating their code to Python 3. ;)
>
> Heh. Yeah. Python is quite particular about versions. I've had to
> move my code to Python 3.3, not just 3.2 any more, because there
> were too many incompatibilities.

Exactly - warts and all, that hasn't stopped a good many people from 
using Python.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Mark Wieder]

On 05/30/2015 10:54 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


If we were in a more optimistic mood, we could say:

   LiveCode 7 is very good at exposing suboptimal algorithms.


Yep. And for dp or rc builds I think that's a good thing.
But not for 'stable' releases.


That most stuff works without any noticeable difference at all is pretty
good, even if we can expect to find a handful of edge cases where
optimizing the algorithm may be needed.


The problem is that "pretty good" isn't good enough for LiveCode 
positioning itself in the marketplace, and that bodes ill for all of us 
who hope for its continued existence. We old-timers are more willing to 
accept some of the flaws, the degradations in performance, the 
long-standing bugs, the lack of features, etc. Folks investigating LC as 
a development platform won't be as forgiving.



If moving into the present with LiveCode 7 seems like a lot of work,
talk to Python 2 fans migrating their code to Python 3. ;)


Heh. Yeah. Python is quite particular about versions. I've had to move 
my code to Python 3.3, not just 3.2 any more, because there were too 
many incompatibilities.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Peter TB Brett]

On 2015-05-30 19:33, Tiemo Hollmann TB wrote:

I made some more performance benchmarks with my real life data
I deactivated my "special sort" xSortListe handler and replaced it just 
by:

1. sort lines of tListe numeric
2. sort lines of tListe international
(though it is not a solution for my sorting feature, but just to drill 
it down)


LC 6.5.2, average times:
My repeat loop: 14 millisecs
plain Sort numeric: 3 millisecs
plain Sort international: 128 millisecs

LC 7.0.5, average times:
My repeat loop: 55 millisecs (+393%)
plain Sort numeric: 8 millisecs (+267%)
plain Sort international: 4100 millisecs (+3203%)


Oh dear. That "sort international" performance is really not very good 
at all, is it?  I think we will need to address this soon!


I was going to suggest trying the following but perhaps it will not make 
much difference because it still uses "sort international"



function TiemoSort pList
   local tSorted, tLine, tNumeric, tAlpha

   repeat for each line tLine in pList
  if isNumber(first char of  tLine) then
 put tLine & return after tNumeric
  else
 put tLine & return  after tAlpha
  end if
   end repeat

   sort tNumeric numeric
   sort tAlpha international

   return tAlpha & tNumeric
end TiemoSort


Thank you for sending your stack.  I hope it will enable us to deal with 
your problem promptly.  :-)



  Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Engine Development Team


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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Richard Gaskin]

Mark Wieder wrote:
> Nonetheless, if there's a significant performance hit in *the same
> code* running on different LC versions, then it's something to worry
> about.

If we were in a more optimistic mood, we could say:

  LiveCode 7 is very good at exposing suboptimal algorithms.

;)

Of course it would be more convenient for everyone if LiveCode could 
have undertaken the most significant rewrite of any xTalk ever and 
pulled it off with only performance gains and not a single downside.


But in the imperfect world we live in, desirable as that might be I 
don't think it's a realistic goal.


Some areas of the v7 engine are faster, some slower, and now and then 
the slower parts will be slow enough that it'll prompt us to consider 
revising our code as it would have been faster all along.


It's worth noting that the scope of Tiemo's slowdown is far beyond 
anything I've been able to measure in v7 myself, and well outside of 
just about anything I've even read about.


That most stuff works without any noticeable difference at all is pretty 
good, even if we can expect to find a handful of edge cases where 
optimizing the algorithm may be needed.


If moving into the present with LiveCode 7 seems like a lot of work, 
talk to Python 2 fans migrating their code to Python 3. ;)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: AW: AW: How do you handle the poor performance of LC 7?

[Mark Wieder]

On 05/30/2015 09:58 AM, Tiemo Hollmann TB wrote:


Hi Malte, you and Richard are on the right trace - and I was blind :)


Nonetheless, if there's a significant performance hit in *the same code* 
running on different LC versions, then it's something to worry about.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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