Re: Catalina Entitlements or Permissions (was Possible Catalina problem)

[Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode]

> http://newosxbook.com/ent.jl
> 
> Now, if only I could figure out from the database which ones I need to add.

Wow, that is an AWESOME tool! I hate that Apple won't pull a single engineer 
off a project to write some documentation. A similar solution I use is to 
make-up for Apple’s confusing developer matrix is https://xcodereleases.com/

I think you’re on the right track about figuring out entitlements via that 
database. By randomly selecting some Executable files that I was familiar with 
(iTunes, TextEdit, etc.) it looks like you might be interested in:
com.apple.security.files.user-selected.read-write
com.apple.security.files.user-selected.executable 

com.apple.security.device.camera 

com.apple.security.device.microphone 

com.apple.security.app-sandbox 
 
<— not really sure about this one

—Andrew Bell
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Re: Catalina Entitlements or Permissions (was Possible Catalina problem)

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

Arghh!

So I am Googling and Googling and hunting around the Apple Developer 
site to try to find a comprehensive list of macOS entitlements so I can 
code sign my app with the the entitlements my app needs to not generate 
errors under Catalina.


I want to execute: codesign --verbose --deep --force --sign 
"" --entitlements 
 
with an entitlements.plist file with entitlemenst to grant my app 
certain disk access, internet access, email access, and finder integration.


Finally, I find this article that basically says Apple has no 
comprehensive list - their published developer documentation has not 
kept up with the additions they have been making in point release 
updates to macOS: 
https://eclecticlight.co/2019/02/26/entitlements-how-apps-get-back-what-theyve-given-up/


The lack of an up-to-date comprehensive entitlements list was apparently 
bad enough that a guy by the name of Jonathan Levin built a database to 
keep track of them since Apple couldn't (or wouldn't), so at least there 
is this hand database at http://newosxbook.com/ent.jl


Now, if only I could figure out from the database which ones I need to add.

Perhaps, it is time to switch to Mark Talluto's suggestion to use 
AppWrapper!



On 6/16/2020 6:28 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:

Hi Panos,

Thank you very much. The discussion in the bug entry answered  lot of 
my questions. I have one last thing I hope you or someone can point me 
two, which is a list of Apple macOS "entitlements"


From the bug entry I see:

com.apple.security.device.audio-input

com.apple.security.device.camera


I need to figure out the ones for email access, finder integration 
(drag/drop), internet access, and disk access.


We've seen Catalina ask the user for:

1. HyperRESEARCH requests access to the Internet (if Apple Firewall is
   turned on). - We assume this is because out app needs to check for
   new versions and updates and for license management.
2. HyperRESEARCH requests access to the "Finder". - We assume this is
   to receive AppleEvents (system messages) if a Study file is double
   clicked or dragged and dropped on HyperRESEARCH to open the Study.
3. HyperRESEARCH requests access to your "Contacts". We assume this is
   for access to send an email for an error report if an error occurs.
   Our App does not accessing any names or addresses.

I have tried Google for macOS or Catalina and entitlements but all I 
seem to be able to find is articles from the user's perspective, not 
developers information.





On 6/15/2020 12:21 PM, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode wrote:

Hello Paul,

I guess you can sign the standalone mac app with entitlements, i.e. 
use a

file that will contain all the necessary entitlements, and include it in
the params passed to the codesign command. See this report for more 
details:


https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22660

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 14:56, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


We're having some macOS Catalina permissions/entitlements issues

We have applications that we deliver for Catalina where the application
(LiveCode standalone) is code-signed. It is then packaged in an
installers (LiveCode standalone) and the installer is code signed. That
is then placed in a DMG, which is code-signed, notarized, and stapled.

This has worked for us since October when Catalina was released.

It still works, except sometimes, after successful downloading and
installation, when the applications is first launched, Catalina does 
not

ask for the permissions the Application needs. Instead certain handler
throw an execution error. The handlers that produce the errors on
startup when Catalina fails to ask for permissions have the 
following in

common:

The set the defaultFolder to folders such as:

/Library/PreferencePanes
/Users//Library/Preferences -- this is using the code: the
home folder & "/Library/PreferencePanes/"
or
/private/var/folders/fj/0llnt4vs44vfzy4r97k_wngcgp/T/TemporaryItems
-- this is 'the temporary folder' on Mojave or Catalina. On Mavericks
and earlier teh temporaty folder was
/Users//Library/Caches/TemporaryItems

After setting the defaultFolder, the code gets 'the files' or 'the
folders' and fails (actually we've not pinned down whether it fails on
set the defaultFolder OR on the call to 'the files/folders')

Going to Apple (menu) > System Preferences (menu item) > Security &
Privacy (control) > Privacy (tab) and selecting Full Disk Access and
adding our applications prevents these errors from occuring.

The issue is clearly with Catalina failing to detect and ask for the
correct permissions. This is a known issue a number of developers have
run into. See https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/125438 as one
example where an Apple support person admits that detecting what
permissions a process is requesting that is tied back to your user
visible app (something Apple calls 'responsibility tracking') is 

Re: Catalina Entitlements or Permissions (was Possible Catalina problem)

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

Hi Panos,

Thank you very much. The discussion in the bug entry answered  lot of my 
questions. I have one last thing I hope you or someone can point me two, 
which is a list of Apple macOS "entitlements"


From the bug entry I see:

com.apple.security.device.audio-input

com.apple.security.device.camera


I need to figure out the ones for email access, finder integration 
(drag/drop), internet access, and disk access.


We've seen Catalina ask the user for:

1. HyperRESEARCH requests access to the Internet (if Apple Firewall is
   turned on). - We assume this is because out app needs to check for
   new versions and updates and for license management.
2. HyperRESEARCH requests access to the "Finder". - We assume this is
   to receive AppleEvents (system messages) if a Study file is double
   clicked or dragged and dropped on HyperRESEARCH to open the Study.
3. HyperRESEARCH requests access to your "Contacts". We assume this is
   for access to send an email for an error report if an error occurs.
   Our App does not accessing any names or addresses.

I have tried Google for macOS or Catalina and entitlements but all I 
seem to be able to find is articles from the user's perspective, not 
developers information.





On 6/15/2020 12:21 PM, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode wrote:

Hello Paul,

I guess you can sign the standalone mac app with entitlements, i.e. use a
file that will contain all the necessary entitlements, and include it in
the params passed to the codesign command. See this report for more details:

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22660

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 14:56, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


We're having some macOS Catalina permissions/entitlements issues

We have applications that we deliver for Catalina where the application
(LiveCode standalone) is code-signed. It is then packaged in an
installers (LiveCode standalone) and the installer is code signed. That
is then placed in a DMG, which is code-signed, notarized, and stapled.

This has worked for us since October when Catalina was released.

It still works, except sometimes, after successful downloading and
installation, when the applications is first launched, Catalina does not
ask for the permissions the Application needs. Instead certain handler
throw an execution error. The handlers that produce the errors on
startup when Catalina fails to ask for permissions have the following in
common:

The set the defaultFolder to folders such as:

/Library/PreferencePanes
/Users//Library/Preferences -- this is using the code: the
home folder & "/Library/PreferencePanes/"
or
/private/var/folders/fj/0llnt4vs44vfzy4r97k_wngcgp/T/TemporaryItems
-- this is 'the temporary folder' on Mojave or Catalina. On Mavericks
and earlier teh temporaty folder was
/Users//Library/Caches/TemporaryItems

After setting the defaultFolder, the code gets 'the files' or 'the
folders' and fails (actually we've not pinned down whether it fails on
set the defaultFolder OR on the call to 'the files/folders')

Going to Apple (menu) > System Preferences (menu item) > Security &
Privacy (control) > Privacy (tab) and selecting Full Disk Access and
adding our applications prevents these errors from occuring.

The issue is clearly with Catalina failing to detect and ask for the
correct permissions. This is a known issue a number of developers have
run into. See https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/125438 as one
example where an Apple support person admits that detecting what
permissions a process is requesting that is tied back to your user
visible app (something Apple calls 'responsibility tracking') is really
hard.

For iOS and Android, you can specify entitlements or requested
permissions in the Standalone Builder Settings. How do you do this for
macOS Catalina?

Does anyone know if there is a way to specify entitlements for a macOS
desktop app built in LiveCode? I have been googling and googling and can
seem to find anything. I found one discussion on stackExchange that seem
to imply that the PLIST file could be edited to specify entitlements. I
have tried the Apple Developer site, but SO MUCH of it is orient towards
people with lots of Apple Developer experience and focuses of C and
SWIFT and Apple specific technologies I don't understand.

I can edit the XML in a PLIST file in the standalone bundle IF I only
knew what to add?


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Re: Catalina Entitlements or Permissions (was Possible Catalina problem)

[Mark Talluto via use-livecode]

We use App Wrapper 3 to sign and notarize our apps. You can control all of 
these details from inside the app. It makes it pretty easy. I think you can try 
the app for free and see if this works for you.
https://www.ohanaware.com/appwrapper/ 

Best regards,

Mark Talluto
livecloud.io 
nursenotes.net 
canelasoftware.com 


> On Jun 15, 2020, at 4:55 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> We're having some macOS Catalina permissions/entitlements issues
> 
> We have applications that we deliver for Catalina where the application 
> (LiveCode standalone) is code-signed. It is then packaged in an installers 
> (LiveCode standalone) and the installer is code signed. That is then placed 
> in a DMG, which is code-signed, notarized, and stapled.
> 
> This has worked for us since October when Catalina was released.
> 
> It still works, except sometimes, after successful downloading and 
> installation, when the applications is first launched, Catalina does not ask 
> for the permissions the Application needs. Instead certain handler throw an 
> execution error. The handlers that produce the errors on startup when 
> Catalina fails to ask for permissions have the following in common:

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Re: Catalina Entitlements or Permissions (was Possible Catalina problem)

[panagiotis merakos via use-livecode]

Hello Paul,

I guess you can sign the standalone mac app with entitlements, i.e. use a
file that will contain all the necessary entitlements, and include it in
the params passed to the codesign command. See this report for more details:

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22660

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 14:56, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> We're having some macOS Catalina permissions/entitlements issues
>
> We have applications that we deliver for Catalina where the application
> (LiveCode standalone) is code-signed. It is then packaged in an
> installers (LiveCode standalone) and the installer is code signed. That
> is then placed in a DMG, which is code-signed, notarized, and stapled.
>
> This has worked for us since October when Catalina was released.
>
> It still works, except sometimes, after successful downloading and
> installation, when the applications is first launched, Catalina does not
> ask for the permissions the Application needs. Instead certain handler
> throw an execution error. The handlers that produce the errors on
> startup when Catalina fails to ask for permissions have the following in
> common:
>
> The set the defaultFolder to folders such as:
>
> /Library/PreferencePanes
> /Users//Library/Preferences -- this is using the code: the
> home folder & "/Library/PreferencePanes/"
> or
> /private/var/folders/fj/0llnt4vs44vfzy4r97k_wngcgp/T/TemporaryItems
> -- this is 'the temporary folder' on Mojave or Catalina. On Mavericks
> and earlier teh temporaty folder was
> /Users//Library/Caches/TemporaryItems
>
> After setting the defaultFolder, the code gets 'the files' or 'the
> folders' and fails (actually we've not pinned down whether it fails on
> set the defaultFolder OR on the call to 'the files/folders')
>
> Going to Apple (menu) > System Preferences (menu item) > Security &
> Privacy (control) > Privacy (tab) and selecting Full Disk Access and
> adding our applications prevents these errors from occuring.
>
> The issue is clearly with Catalina failing to detect and ask for the
> correct permissions. This is a known issue a number of developers have
> run into. See https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/125438 as one
> example where an Apple support person admits that detecting what
> permissions a process is requesting that is tied back to your user
> visible app (something Apple calls 'responsibility tracking') is really
> hard.
>
> For iOS and Android, you can specify entitlements or requested
> permissions in the Standalone Builder Settings. How do you do this for
> macOS Catalina?
>
> Does anyone know if there is a way to specify entitlements for a macOS
> desktop app built in LiveCode? I have been googling and googling and can
> seem to find anything. I found one discussion on stackExchange that seem
> to imply that the PLIST file could be edited to specify entitlements. I
> have tried the Apple Developer site, but SO MUCH of it is orient towards
> people with lots of Apple Developer experience and focuses of C and
> SWIFT and Apple specific technologies I don't understand.
>
> I can edit the XML in a PLIST file in the standalone bundle IF I only
> knew what to add?
>
>
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit—USB broken

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

No, I haven't tried QUEMU.

However, I downloaded a new xCode and, when I ran it the first time, my little 
board started working and showed up as a virtual serial port and as a disk 
drive. 

The good news is that it works. Perhaps xCode swapped out something, maybe 
drivers.

The bad news is that I have no idea whether something that runs on my machine 
will run on another without xCode installed.

Dar
Mad Scientist
Sad Scientist


> On Oct 16, 2019, at 2:31 PM, hh via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> @Dar.
> Did you already try to use QUEMU?
> https://www.qemu.org
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit—USB broken

[hh via use-livecode]

@Dar.
Did you already try to use QUEMU?
https://www.qemu.org



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Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit—USB broken

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I'm not sure how this addresses my concern. Uh, rant. Lament. 

If this is an OS problem, then a Hackintosh system would not solve it.
If this is a driver problem, then perhaps Clover will work, but maybe not.
(When I build a machine, I would use Windows or Linux, so—for me—Hackintosh is 
not a solution.)

I like working with USB gadgets on the Mac, but if "Works with Catalina" has to 
become a de facto standard for USB, then Apple is going to lose a market. A 
virtual Windows machine is of no help here. 

Oh, and I said AdaFruit has a fix for Feather boards. It doesn't work for me. 

This also means my advice to use virtual machines for Windows is flawed.

Maybe this is Apple's way of saying I should get a new Mac, but I hear even 
some new Macs have the problem.

> On Oct 14, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. 
> They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade. 
> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware 
> components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which 
> were not supported by Apple anymore.
> 
> On 14/10/2019, 21:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Dar Scott Consulting via 
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino boards 
> such as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is not 
> related to 32-bit. 
> 
>Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. Actually 
> this started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple changed how 
> USB devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing problem. 
> AdaFruit has a fix.
> 
>There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan Atkinson's 
> examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.
> 
>I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing the 
> specs. Or whether the small board community has been spec-lax. 
> 
>Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, especially for 
> gadget folks like me. 
> 
>Dar Scott
>Mad Scientist
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit

[Eller, Roger via use-livecode]

Morganaut has the best tutorials out there for a modern MacOS build.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg5TS2EmMutPd7Y1zqfQ3iA


~Roger






From: use-livecode  on behalf of Bob 
Sneidar via use-livecode 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 10:45 AM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Bob Sneidar 
Subject: Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.


I need to look into this again. I made one Hackintosh with an eye to play video 
games but could never get the graphics card to work. That was a long time ago. 
If you have any links for making this happen I would be very interested. Thanks.

Bob S


> On Oct 14, 2019, at 13:10 , Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
>
> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. 
> They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade.
> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware 
> components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which 
> were not supported by Apple anymore.


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Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit

[Jjs via use-livecode]

Tonymacx86.com

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode  schreef op 15 
oktober 2019 16:45:27 CEST:
>I need to look into this again. I made one Hackintosh with an eye to
>play video games but could never get the graphics card to work. That
>was a long time ago. If you have any links for making this happen I
>would be very interested. Thanks. 
>
>Bob S
>
>
>> On Oct 14, 2019, at 13:10 , Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode
> wrote:
>> 
>> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh
>systems. They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy
>to upgrade. 
>> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use
>hardware components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound
>cards etc.) which were not supported by Apple anymore.
>
>
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-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
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Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I need to look into this again. I made one Hackintosh with an eye to play video 
games but could never get the graphics card to work. That was a long time ago. 
If you have any links for making this happen I would be very interested. 
Thanks. 

Bob S


> On Oct 14, 2019, at 13:10 , Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. 
> They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade. 
> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware 
> components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which 
> were not supported by Apple anymore.


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Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit

[Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode]

Exactly, patching does the magic __

On 14/10/2019, 22:49, "use-livecode on behalf of JJS via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

clover is the bootloader.

You still need the kexts (but you know, else you would not use it)

Op 14-10-2019 om 22:10 schreef Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode:
> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh 
systems. They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to 
upgrade.
> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use 
hardware components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) 
which were not supported by Apple anymore.
>   
> On 14/10/2019, 21:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Dar Scott Consulting 
via use-livecode"  wrote:
>
>  Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino 
boards such as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is 
not related to 32-bit.
>  
>  Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. 
Actually this started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple 
changed how USB devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing 
problem. AdaFruit has a fix.
>  
>  There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan 
Atkinson's examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.
>  
>  I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing 
the specs. Or whether the small board community has been spec-lax.
>  
>  Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, 
especially for gadget folks like me.
>  
>  Dar Scott
>  Mad Scientist
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  ___
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>  Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
subscription preferences:
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>  
>
>
>
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subscription preferences:
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Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit

[JJS via use-livecode]

clover is the bootloader.

You still need the kexts (but you know, else you would not use it)

Op 14-10-2019 om 22:10 schreef Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode:

That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. 
They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade.
With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware 
components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which 
were not supported by Apple anymore.
  
On 14/10/2019, 21:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode"  wrote:


 Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino boards 
such as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is not 
related to 32-bit.
 
 Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. Actually this started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple changed how USB devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing problem. AdaFruit has a fix.
 
 There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan Atkinson's examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.
 
 I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing the specs. Or whether the small board community has been spec-lax.
 
 Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, especially for gadget folks like me.
 
 Dar Scott

 Mad Scientist
 
 
 
 
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Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit

[Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode]

That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. 
They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade. 
With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware 
components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which 
were not supported by Apple anymore.
 
On 14/10/2019, 21:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Dar Scott Consulting via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino boards 
such as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is not 
related to 32-bit. 

Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. Actually 
this started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple changed how 
USB devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing problem. 
AdaFruit has a fix.

There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan Atkinson's 
examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.

I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing the 
specs. Or whether the small board community has been spec-lax. 

Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, especially for 
gadget folks like me. 

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist




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Re: Catalina

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Sand Which

On 10/10/19 1:18 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:

Yes!

We need a cool name like that, too.
Code32
MoreMojave
CantLetGo
TimeScope
macWrap32
32Palms
Wrap32with64
DoubleMy32
Sand

It looks like I can't come up with anything as cool as WineBottler

Dar Scott




On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
 wrote:

This sounds a bit like WineBottler:

http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/

On 10.10.19 20:48, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:

Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of 
application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app 
suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions only 
for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or so) 
desktop.

My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. 
Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in the 
bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be moved and 
replaced with something else that uses some sort of hyper-something to catch 
the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger would. In the latter case the 
INTs might need to be translated statically by the converter. I have not made a 
modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so I'm just guessing.

Dar


On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Mad scientist indeed! ;-)

Bob S



On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 
interrupt.

However, here are some ideas for alternatives.

Virtual

Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I 
don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. 
You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you 
have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can 
set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.

Real

Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, 
instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with Catalina 
and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is running several virtual 
machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has 
constraints, but I think this is OK.

Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? 
You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several 
programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. 
Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the 
client window. I haven't tried this.

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist


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Re: Catalina

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Cider!

On 10.10.19 21:18, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:

Yes!

We need a cool name like that, too.
Code32
MoreMojave
CantLetGo
TimeScope
macWrap32
32Palms
Wrap32with64
DoubleMy32
Sand

It looks like I can't come up with anything as cool as WineBottler

Dar Scott




On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
 wrote:

This sounds a bit like WineBottler:

http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/

On 10.10.19 20:48, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:

Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of 
application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app 
suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions only 
for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or so) 
desktop.

My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. 
Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in the 
bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be moved and 
replaced with something else that uses some sort of hyper-something to catch 
the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger would. In the latter case the 
INTs might need to be translated statically by the converter. I have not made a 
modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so I'm just guessing.

Dar


On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Mad scientist indeed! ;-)

Bob S



On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 
interrupt.

However, here are some ideas for alternatives.

Virtual

Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I 
don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. 
You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you 
have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can 
set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.

Real

Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, 
instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with Catalina 
and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is running several virtual 
machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has 
constraints, but I think this is OK.

Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? 
You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several 
programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. 
Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the 
client window. I haven't tried this.

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist

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Re: Catalina

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Yes!

We need a cool name like that, too. 
Code32 
MoreMojave
CantLetGo
TimeScope
macWrap32
32Palms
Wrap32with64
DoubleMy32
Sand

It looks like I can't come up with anything as cool as WineBottler

Dar Scott



> On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> This sounds a bit like WineBottler:
> 
> http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/
> 
> On 10.10.19 20:48, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of 
>> application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app 
>> suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions 
>> only for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or 
>> so) desktop.
>> 
>> My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. 
>> Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in 
>> the bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be 
>> moved and replaced with something else that uses some sort of 
>> hyper-something to catch the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger 
>> would. In the latter case the INTs might need to be translated statically by 
>> the converter. I have not made a modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so 
>> I'm just guessing.
>> 
>> Dar
>> 
>>> On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mad scientist indeed! ;-)
>>> 
>>> Bob S
>>> 
>>> 
 On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
  wrote:
 
 Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 
 interrupt.
 
 However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
 
 Virtual
 
 Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. 
 (I don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly 
 the same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the 
 host. So, if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can 
 run your app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your 
 desktop and run a 32-bit app.
 
 Real
 
 Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For 
 example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new 
 Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a 
 Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use 
 memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I 
 think this is OK.
 
 Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like 
 Coherence/Unity/SM? You can readily run a single app in a window for a 
 linux server using several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. 
 But I don't know about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full 
 screen and adjust the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.
 
 Dar Scott
 Mad Scientist
>>> 
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Re: Catalina

[Richmond via use-livecode]

This sounds a bit like WineBottler:

http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/

On 10.10.19 20:48, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:

Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of 
application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app 
suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions only 
for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or so) 
desktop.

My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. 
Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in the 
bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be moved and 
replaced with something else that uses some sort of hyper-something to catch 
the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger would. In the latter case the 
INTs might need to be translated statically by the converter. I have not made a 
modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so I'm just guessing.

Dar


On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Mad scientist indeed! ;-)

Bob S



On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 
interrupt.

However, here are some ideas for alternatives.

Virtual

Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I 
don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. 
You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you 
have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can 
set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.

Real

Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, 
instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with Catalina 
and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is running several virtual 
machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has 
constraints, but I think this is OK.

Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? 
You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several 
programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. 
Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the 
client window. I haven't tried this.

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist


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Re: Catalina

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of 
application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app 
suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions only 
for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or so) 
desktop. 

My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. 
Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in the 
bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be moved and 
replaced with something else that uses some sort of hyper-something to catch 
the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger would. In the latter case the 
INTs might need to be translated statically by the converter. I have not made a 
modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so I'm just guessing.

Dar

> On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mad scientist indeed! ;-)
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 
>> interrupt.
>> 
>> However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
>> 
>> Virtual
>> 
>> Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I 
>> don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the 
>> same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, 
>> if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your 
>> app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and 
>> run a 32-bit app.
>> 
>> Real
>> 
>> Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For 
>> example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new 
>> Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a 
>> Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory 
>> ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think 
>> this is OK. 
>> 
>> Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? 
>> You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using 
>> several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know 
>> about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust 
>> the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.
>> 
>> Dar Scott
>> Mad Scientist
> 
> 
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Re: Catalina

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Mad scientist indeed! ;-)

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 
> interrupt.
> 
> However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
> 
> Virtual
> 
> Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I 
> don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the 
> same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, 
> if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your 
> app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and 
> run a 32-bit app.
> 
> Real
> 
> Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For 
> example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac 
> Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac 
> that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory 
> ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think 
> this is OK. 
> 
> Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? 
> You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several 
> programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. 
> Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the 
> client window. I haven't tried this.
> 
> Dar Scott
> Mad Scientist


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Re: Catalina

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 
interrupt.

However, here are some ideas for alternatives.

Virtual

Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I 
don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. 
You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you 
have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can 
set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.

Real

Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, 
instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with 
Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is 
running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to 
share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think this is OK. 

Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? 
You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several 
programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. 
Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the 
client window. I haven't tried this.

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 3:50 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 10/9/19 2:03 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> I just use macWrap32. Oh. Wait. There isn't one.
> 
> :) Write one for us.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: Catalina

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 10/9/19 2:03 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:

I just use macWrap32. Oh. Wait. There isn't one.


:) Write one for us.

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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Catalina

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 10/9/19 11:46 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:

On 10/9/2019 12:29 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the 
company that makes my accounting software warning customers not to 
upgrade to Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition 
for a year and thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. 
They were quite up-front about it, said they were working hard and 
would let us know when it was ready.

Hah! We clearly use the SAME accounting software!


I was just thinking the same thing. :)

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Re: Catalina

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I just use macWrap32. Oh. Wait. There isn't one.

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 12:17 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’m not so concerned with the latest version of Catalina as I am with some of 
> the software I use ceasing to function. Want to make sure I either update 
> everything to 64bit, find a replacement, or convert documents into a format 
> that will work with the 64bit apps that I do have.
> 
> Kee
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 11:09 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> As far as I know, Catalina "exists" inside its "own protected space", which 
>> means that it
>> is like that awful conversation you have with your embarrassing relative who 
>> is banged
>> up in one of those American prisons we see in Movies with a thickened 
>> plate-glass window
>> and 2 retro telephone handsets . . .
>> 
>> . . . I remember having a conversation in 1993 from Connecticut with my Mum 
>> (for her birthday)
>> in England with one of those cheapo phone cards that went in for fancy 
>> signal-sharing (or something) where,
>> by the time the person heard what you'd had to say at the other end you'd 
>> had time to regret saying.
> 
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Re: Catalina

[kee nethery via use-livecode]

I’m not so concerned with the latest version of Catalina as I am with some of 
the software I use ceasing to function. Want to make sure I either update 
everything to 64bit, find a replacement, or convert documents into a format 
that will work with the 64bit apps that I do have.

Kee

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 11:09 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> As far as I know, Catalina "exists" inside its "own protected space", which 
> means that it
> is like that awful conversation you have with your embarrassing relative who 
> is banged
> up in one of those American prisons we see in Movies with a thickened 
> plate-glass window
> and 2 retro telephone handsets . . .
> 
> . . . I remember having a conversation in 1993 from Connecticut with my Mum 
> (for her birthday)
> in England with one of those cheapo phone cards that went in for fancy 
> signal-sharing (or something) where,
> by the time the person heard what you'd had to say at the other end you'd had 
> time to regret saying.

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Re: Catalina

[JJS via use-livecode]

I just got an email from Arturia a french based company that makes 
software and nowadays hardware synthesizers too, warning customers not 
to update to Catalina, until there is a hotfix. Many plugins producers 
use in music DAW's are still 32-bits and will not work.


What a great move from Apple.

You can say from Windows what you want, but i have plugins from around 
2003 still working as advertised in Win10-64bits


Op 9-10-2019 om 18:29 schreef J. Landman Gay via use-livecode:
It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the 
company that makes my accounting software warning customers not to 
upgrade to Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition 
for a year and thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. 
They were quite up-front about it, said they were working hard and 
would let us know when it was ready.


That seemed thoughtful, and probably saved them a lot of tech support 
as well. On the other hand, I almost never upgrade to the first 
release of a major dot-zero version. I wait for the wrinkles to shake 
out.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 9, 2019 10:52:25 AM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Customer (at least ours) do not understand 32 bit vs 64-bit. They will
only know that (a) Apple says there is a new update for their computer
and they click to update; or (b) as a member of some university or
business, their computer is upgraded (perhaps at their request, perhaps
as part of a planned upgrade cycle).

In either case, after they or some IT person has helped with the OS
update, suddenly some of their software (including ours) no longer works
(being 32-bit). They don't know why. They don't care why.

Now as for the "Well, Apple has been notifying you forever that, as a
developer, you needed to be at 64 bits" or "But if you make your apps in
LiveCode, just recompile with LiveCode 9"

Our apps have hundreds of thousands of line of code. In migrating them
to LiveCode 9, at first they would not even run. In the course of
migrating, Researchware staff has filed some 40 Livecode 9 bugs, some of
which have no or no good workarounds, that directly impact features of
our apps. Thankfully, most have work-arounds, but work-arounds and
testing take time. Now for the record, LiveCode, Ltd. has been
absolutely great in suggesting work-arounds or helping us work through
the most serious of the bugs.

Our customers do not need 64 bits. Our very niche software does what it
needs to do in 32 bits. Our customer have no disk space issues or memory
issues due to both 32 and 64 bits libraries or support. Our customers
would all be very happy to just keep using our tools as is. Hence, my
venting is about Apple's intentionally planned obsolescence. What our
customers want in new versions is not 64 bit, but functional
enhancements to what our software does.

Being a small (very small), we have sunk a year of development in to
getting to LC9 for 64 bit and making sure what we have in our app just
works (QA testing!). We have had no resources to work on new or enhanced
features. So our customers get an upgrade, with almost nothing new
except 64 bit support, which also means with nothing new, we can't in
good conscious charge an upgrade fee for it. Which means lost revenue,
which badly hurts our small business.

Should we have migrated to LC9 sooner? Probably, but doing so would have
meant - as it does now - only doing the migration and not new
features/revenue. Also doing in now, we still found 40 bugs. If we did
it a year or two ago, how many more bugs would we have found that have
since been fixed!

That's what Catalina represents to us. I realize that many many Apple
customers will be delighted with Catalina and I am happy for them. I
just wish that Apple cared a bit more about not breaking what came
before. Say what you will about Microsoft, but I still have specialty
applications written for Windows 2000/XP that run fine under Windows 10!
Microsoft is guilty of many many sins, but **for the most part** they
try to keep things that once once worked still working.

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Re: Catalina

[Richmond via use-livecode]

As far as I know, Catalina "exists" inside its "own protected space", 
which means that it
is like that awful conversation you have with your embarrassing relative 
who is banged
up in one of those American prisons we see in Movies with a thickened 
plate-glass window

and 2 retro telephone handsets . . .

. . . I remember having a conversation in 1993 from Connecticut with my 
Mum (for her birthday)
in England with one of those cheapo phone cards that went in for fancy 
signal-sharing (or something) where,
by the time the person heard what you'd had to say at the other end 
you'd had time to regret saying.


On 9.10.19 20:06, hh via use-livecode wrote:

Bob S. wrote:
Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that
you don't HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your
version of LC to become obsolete. YOU DID!

Matthias R. wrote:
Thanks Bot, i thought the same, but did not dare to write it.

It is just the same with new LiveCode versions.
So why did you both ever write about new LC versions?

New MacOS versions are often a downgrade in software speed
(measured relative to hardware speed). This time it is a BIG
downgrade. Just try yourself (but you don't have to ...).

The current Apple style is the 'fake-news-and-status' style:

For example the installer. For at about 45 minutes the estimated
time remaining is repeatedly calculated to 31 minutes and then
going down by one to 27 every ten minutes. This is 5bit computing,
not 64bit.

First everything has to be freshly indexed and cashed, of course.

But then, after *every* startup, the system seems to be ready
but doesn't respond for ten seconds. The same again with Mail,
etc., hopefully not with your standalones.


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Re: Catalina

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Not for me: as a person who is normally an early adopter, I'm breaking 
my own rule and

keeping well clear of Catalina.

I have always been ambivalent about upgrading as the benefits have 
almost always been balanced by downsides


[ https://www.downside.co.uk/ ]

and, as I still use a BBC Model B computer (saving my work on an audio 
cassette) for tinkering around with
BBC BASIC in a way that seems direct and to the point: no GUI, boots in 
5 seconds., I am not automatically
a believer in the ever-upwards thing (remember, in Jacob's dream there 
were also being coming down the staircase).


As I, almost exclusively (well, except when I'm fooling myself about 
Devawriter Pro) develop humble
little programs for EFL kiddos for deployment on manky-franky old PCs 
running Xubuntu the need for Catalina
exists in no bigger way than the fact that I regret never having "had a 
bash" at Mount Everest.


As, at 57, I'm working my way towards being one of Jacque's "wrinklies", 
I suspect the shaking will be

elsewhere.

On 9.10.19 19:29, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the 
company that makes my accounting software warning customers not to 
upgrade to Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition 
for a year and thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. 
They were quite up-front about it, said they were working hard and 
would let us know when it was ready.


That seemed thoughtful, and probably saved them a lot of tech support 
as well. On the other hand, I almost never upgrade to the first 
release of a major dot-zero version. I wait for the wrinkles to shake 
out.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 9, 2019 10:52:25 AM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Customer (at least ours) do not understand 32 bit vs 64-bit. They will
only know that (a) Apple says there is a new update for their computer
and they click to update; or (b) as a member of some university or
business, their computer is upgraded (perhaps at their request, perhaps
as part of a planned upgrade cycle).

In either case, after they or some IT person has helped with the OS
update, suddenly some of their software (including ours) no longer works
(being 32-bit). They don't know why. They don't care why.

Now as for the "Well, Apple has been notifying you forever that, as a
developer, you needed to be at 64 bits" or "But if you make your apps in
LiveCode, just recompile with LiveCode 9"

Our apps have hundreds of thousands of line of code. In migrating them
to LiveCode 9, at first they would not even run. In the course of
migrating, Researchware staff has filed some 40 Livecode 9 bugs, some of
which have no or no good workarounds, that directly impact features of
our apps. Thankfully, most have work-arounds, but work-arounds and
testing take time. Now for the record, LiveCode, Ltd. has been
absolutely great in suggesting work-arounds or helping us work through
the most serious of the bugs.

Our customers do not need 64 bits. Our very niche software does what it
needs to do in 32 bits. Our customer have no disk space issues or memory
issues due to both 32 and 64 bits libraries or support. Our customers
would all be very happy to just keep using our tools as is. Hence, my
venting is about Apple's intentionally planned obsolescence. What our
customers want in new versions is not 64 bit, but functional
enhancements to what our software does.

Being a small (very small), we have sunk a year of development in to
getting to LC9 for 64 bit and making sure what we have in our app just
works (QA testing!). We have had no resources to work on new or enhanced
features. So our customers get an upgrade, with almost nothing new
except 64 bit support, which also means with nothing new, we can't in
good conscious charge an upgrade fee for it. Which means lost revenue,
which badly hurts our small business.

Should we have migrated to LC9 sooner? Probably, but doing so would have
meant - as it does now - only doing the migration and not new
features/revenue. Also doing in now, we still found 40 bugs. If we did
it a year or two ago, how many more bugs would we have found that have
since been fixed!

That's what Catalina represents to us. I realize that many many Apple
customers will be delighted with Catalina and I am happy for them. I
just wish that Apple cared a bit more about not breaking what came
before. Say what you will about Microsoft, but I still have specialty
applications written for Windows 2000/XP that run fine under Windows 10!
Microsoft is guilty of many many sins, but **for the most part** they
try to keep things that once once worked still working.

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Re: Catalina

[hh via use-livecode]

> Bob S. wrote:
> Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that
> you don't HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your
> version of LC to become obsolete. YOU DID! 
> 
> Matthias R. wrote:
> Thanks Bot, i thought the same, but did not dare to write it.

It is just the same with new LiveCode versions.
So why did you both ever write about new LC versions?

New MacOS versions are often a downgrade in software speed
(measured relative to hardware speed). This time it is a BIG
downgrade. Just try yourself (but you don't have to ...).

The current Apple style is the 'fake-news-and-status' style:

For example the installer. For at about 45 minutes the estimated
time remaining is repeatedly calculated to 31 minutes and then
going down by one to 27 every ten minutes. This is 5bit computing,
not 64bit.

First everything has to be freshly indexed and cashed, of course.

But then, after *every* startup, the system seems to be ready
but doesn't respond for ten seconds. The same again with Mail,
etc., hopefully not with your standalones.


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Re: Catalina

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

On 10/9/2019 12:29 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the 
company that makes my accounting software warning customers not to 
upgrade to Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition 
for a year and thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. 
They were quite up-front about it, said they were working hard and 
would let us know when it was ready.

Hah! We clearly use the SAME accounting software!

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Re: Catalina

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

On 10/9/2019 12:02 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

It's a good point. If any commercial developers using LC (or ANY dev 
environment) are going to have issues with Catalina, it might be a good idea to 
mail blast them and warn them if your app is not going to be compatible, and 
even provide a general time frame for when they will be.


Yes, we unfortunately, already had to do that. And I hated having to 
send it out. We just could not quite make the timing. We have about a 
handful of bugs left to fix and QA and then we'll have our new release. 
I really regret not being done by Catalina, but we tried hard.


We, ourselves, use a popular Accounting software package that runs on 
OSX, who also email blasted us warning they were not quite 64 bit yet.


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Re: Catalina

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

+1 I don't either. Too old and scarred to brave those waters. 

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 09:29 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the company 
> that makes my accounting software warning customers not to upgrade to 
> Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition for a year and 
> thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. They were quite 
> up-front about it, said they were working hard and would let us know when it 
> was ready.
> 
> That seemed thoughtful, and probably saved them a lot of tech support as 
> well. On the other hand, I almost never upgrade to the first release of a 
> major dot-zero version. I wait for the wrinkles to shake out.
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Catalina

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the company 
that makes my accounting software warning customers not to upgrade to 
Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition for a year and 
thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. They were quite 
up-front about it, said they were working hard and would let us know when 
it was ready.


That seemed thoughtful, and probably saved them a lot of tech support as 
well. On the other hand, I almost never upgrade to the first release of a 
major dot-zero version. I wait for the wrinkles to shake out.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 9, 2019 10:52:25 AM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Customer (at least ours) do not understand 32 bit vs 64-bit. They will
only know that (a) Apple says there is a new update for their computer
and they click to update; or (b) as a member of some university or
business, their computer is upgraded (perhaps at their request, perhaps
as part of a planned upgrade cycle).

In either case, after they or some IT person has helped with the OS
update, suddenly some of their software (including ours) no longer works
(being 32-bit). They don't know why. They don't care why.

Now as for the "Well, Apple has been notifying you forever that, as a
developer, you needed to be at 64 bits" or "But if you make your apps in
LiveCode, just recompile with LiveCode 9"

Our apps have hundreds of thousands of line of code. In migrating them
to LiveCode 9, at first they would not even run. In the course of
migrating, Researchware staff has filed some 40 Livecode 9 bugs, some of
which have no or no good workarounds, that directly impact features of
our apps. Thankfully, most have work-arounds, but work-arounds and
testing take time. Now for the record, LiveCode, Ltd. has been
absolutely great in suggesting work-arounds or helping us work through
the most serious of the bugs.

Our customers do not need 64 bits. Our very niche software does what it
needs to do in 32 bits. Our customer have no disk space issues or memory
issues due to both 32 and 64 bits libraries or support. Our customers
would all be very happy to just keep using our tools as is. Hence, my
venting is about Apple's intentionally planned obsolescence. What our
customers want in new versions is not 64 bit, but functional
enhancements to what our software does.

Being a small (very small), we have sunk a year of development in to
getting to LC9 for 64 bit and making sure what we have in our app just
works (QA testing!). We have had no resources to work on new or enhanced
features. So our customers get an upgrade, with almost nothing new
except 64 bit support, which also means with nothing new, we can't in
good conscious charge an upgrade fee for it. Which means lost revenue,
which badly hurts our small business.

Should we have migrated to LC9 sooner? Probably, but doing so would have
meant - as it does now - only doing the migration and not new
features/revenue. Also doing in now, we still found 40 bugs. If we did
it a year or two ago, how many more bugs would we have found that have
since been fixed!

That's what Catalina represents to us. I realize that many many Apple
customers will be delighted with Catalina and I am happy for them. I
just wish that Apple cared a bit more about not breaking what came
before. Say what you will about Microsoft, but I still have specialty
applications written for Windows 2000/XP that run fine under Windows 10!
Microsoft is guilty of many many sins, but **for the most part** they
try to keep things that once once worked still working.

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Re: Catalina

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

It's a good point. If any commercial developers using LC (or ANY dev 
environment) are going to have issues with Catalina, it might be a good idea to 
mail blast them and warn them if your app is not going to be compatible, and 
even provide a general time frame for when they will be. 

Also, I think the advice to make sure a full backup is made before a major OS 
update cannot be overstressed. Customers who fail to do this and then find that 
not only are LC 32 bit apps not going to run but a LOT of other apps won't 
either, and then have no way to revert, really need to bear some responsibility 
for this. 

I know that is not something you can tell a customer, but this issue is not 
unique to LC, so everyone who uses a computer at all, should already be aware 
of the issues that can arise when upgrading an entire OS. 

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 08:50 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Customer (at least ours) do not understand 32 bit vs 64-bit. They will only 
> know that (a) Apple says there is a new update for their computer and they 
> click to update; or (b) as a member of some university or business, their 
> computer is upgraded (perhaps at their request, perhaps as part of a planned 
> upgrade cycle).


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Re: Catalina

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker 
WinSignMaker Mac 
> Am 09.10.2019 um 17:16 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that you don't 
> HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your version of LC to 
> become obsolete. YOU DID! 
> 
Thanks Bot, i thought the same, but did not dare to write it.



>> On Oct 8, 2019, at 18:52 , hh via use-livecode 
>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> "Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
>> What a beautiful sounding name!
>> 
>> But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
>> (I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
>> for speed.
>> 
>> I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
>> TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.
>> 
>> May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
>> But it's kind of a burial.   :-((
>> 
>> 
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Re: Catalina

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

Customer (at least ours) do not understand 32 bit vs 64-bit. They will 
only know that (a) Apple says there is a new update for their computer 
and they click to update; or (b) as a member of some university or 
business, their computer is upgraded (perhaps at their request, perhaps 
as part of a planned upgrade cycle).


In either case, after they or some IT person has helped with the OS 
update, suddenly some of their software (including ours) no longer works 
(being 32-bit). They don't know why. They don't care why.


Now as for the "Well, Apple has been notifying you forever that, as a 
developer, you needed to be at 64 bits" or "But if you make your apps in 
LiveCode, just recompile with LiveCode 9"


Our apps have hundreds of thousands of line of code. In migrating them 
to LiveCode 9, at first they would not even run. In the course of 
migrating, Researchware staff has filed some 40 Livecode 9 bugs, some of 
which have no or no good workarounds, that directly impact features of 
our apps. Thankfully, most have work-arounds, but work-arounds and 
testing take time. Now for the record, LiveCode, Ltd. has been 
absolutely great in suggesting work-arounds or helping us work through 
the most serious of the bugs.


Our customers do not need 64 bits. Our very niche software does what it 
needs to do in 32 bits. Our customer have no disk space issues or memory 
issues due to both 32 and 64 bits libraries or support. Our customers 
would all be very happy to just keep using our tools as is. Hence, my 
venting is about Apple's intentionally planned obsolescence. What our 
customers want in new versions is not 64 bit, but functional 
enhancements to what our software does.


Being a small (very small), we have sunk a year of development in to 
getting to LC9 for 64 bit and making sure what we have in our app just 
works (QA testing!). We have had no resources to work on new or enhanced 
features. So our customers get an upgrade, with almost nothing new 
except 64 bit support, which also means with nothing new, we can't in 
good conscious charge an upgrade fee for it. Which means lost revenue, 
which badly hurts our small business.


Should we have migrated to LC9 sooner? Probably, but doing so would have 
meant - as it does now - only doing the migration and not new 
features/revenue. Also doing in now, we still found 40 bugs. If we did 
it a year or two ago, how many more bugs would we have found that have 
since been fixed!


That's what Catalina represents to us. I realize that many many Apple 
customers will be delighted with Catalina and I am happy for them. I 
just wish that Apple cared a bit more about not breaking what came 
before. Say what you will about Microsoft, but I still have specialty 
applications written for Windows 2000/XP that run fine under Windows 10! 
Microsoft is guilty of many many sins, but **for the most part** they 
try to keep things that once once worked still working.


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Re: Catalina

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

Ah yes, backups.  I make it a habit to capture an image of my drive before and 
after any OS upgrade.  CCC works well, but I just use Apple’s tools.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 9, 2019, 11:19 AM -0400, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
, wrote:
> I forgot to mention that if you didn't already create a CCC full backup or a 
> Time Machine backup prior to the upgrade... well... there's that.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 9, 2019, at 08:16 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that you don't 
> > HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your version of LC to 
> > become obsolete. YOU DID!
> >
> > That being said, you can probably downgrade, especially if your hardware is 
> > so old that you still have instalation DVDs for it. If not, there are 
> > articles on how to downgrade. Carbon Copy Cloner will be your friend if you 
> > have to wipe and reinstall to make that happen.
> >
> > Bob S
>
>
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Re: Catalina

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I forgot to mention that if you didn't already create a CCC full backup or a 
Time Machine backup prior to the upgrade... well... there's that. 

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 08:16 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that you don't 
> HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your version of LC to 
> become obsolete. YOU DID! 
> 
> That being said, you can probably downgrade, especially if your hardware is 
> so old that you still have instalation DVDs for it. If not, there are 
> articles on how to downgrade. Carbon Copy Cloner will be your friend if you 
> have to wipe and reinstall to make that happen. 
> 
> Bob S


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Re: Catalina

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that you don't HAVE 
TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your version of LC to become 
obsolete. YOU DID! 

That being said, you can probably downgrade, especially if your hardware is so 
old that you still have instalation DVDs for it. If not, there are articles on 
how to downgrade. Carbon Copy Cloner will be your friend if you have to wipe 
and reinstall to make that happen. 

Bob S


> On Oct 8, 2019, at 18:52 , hh via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> "Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
> What a beautiful sounding name!
> 
> But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
> (I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
> for speed.
> 
> I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
> TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.
> 
> May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
> But it's kind of a burial.   :-((
> 
> 
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Re: Catalina

[Richmond via use-livecode]

I'm an "Apple fanatic", so much so that I have to have these:

1. 2018 MacMini for up to date stuff.

2. 64-bit Intel iMac.

3. 32-bit Intel iMac.

4. G5 iMac.

Because Apple with their obsession for making things obsolescent have left
me with an awful lot of very useful software that I have paid for (or 
been paid with)
that I still wish to use, but could not were I always to use the "latest 
and greatest."


My Spreadsheet-of-choice is still the one in ClarisWorks/AppleWorks 6.

Bryce 7 doesn't work on a computer running anything later than Mac OS 
10.6.8.


HyperCard runs under the "Classic" thing on Mac OS 10.4.11 on one of my 
2 G5 iMacs.


My "main beef" with Apple is their planned obsolescence linked with 
their expensive hardware

means that while they can build fancy ring-shaped buildings . . .

Ok, OK, let's have an irrelevant fact here just to distract ourselves 
from Apple's perfidy:


The famous Scottish film star David Niven introduced water-skiing to the 
United States off Catalina island.


On 9.10.19 17:17, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:

Agree!

With all the billions of $$$ Apple has, they certainly could have 
afforded to maintain 32-bit compatibility for smaller developers who 
can't afford to make every change Apple demands, but they make more 
profits if they don't.


Sorry to any Apple fanatics. I just needed to vent my frustration at 
Apple's dictatorial development model.


On 10/8/2019 9:52 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:

"Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
What a beautiful sounding name!

But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
(I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
for speed.

I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.

May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
But it's kind of a burial.   :-((


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Re: Catalina

[Håkan Liljegren via use-livecode]

So, maybe I’m an Apple fanatic but here goes…

By dropping 32-bit support Apple doesn’t need to update 2 pairs of system 
libraries, as most 32-bit applications requires 32-bit libraries to work. Thus 
it would also be possible to save some disk space (as I only need 64-bit). This 
also means that the system doesn’t need to keep two versions of a library in 
memory. I.e. I will save RAM in my machine. And of course the developers needed 
to maintain the 32-bit libs can now concentrate on other things. Yes, I know 
Apple has more  than several countries, but they still lack good engineers 
in many areas.

But, yes, old 32-bit only versions of apps like old versions of LiveCode will 
stop working. But, if you have a newer version of LiveCode there is not that 
much work that needs to be done to turn your app into a 64-bit version. If you 
are lucky you just do a new “Save as stand-alone”. If you are not that lucky 
you might need to rewrite some code, but I must say that LiveCode have done a 
great job being backwards compatible. I can still open several HyperCard stacks 
in LiveCode!

On top of that you I can run older versions of MacOS in a virtual machine (like 
Parallels Desktop) if I really need to. Or I can keep an old installation on a 
separate hard drive and boot from that when needed.

Just installed Catalina, so tomorrow I might think totally different ;)

:-Håkan
On 9 Oct 2019, 16:18 +0200, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
, wrote:
> Agree!
>
> With all the billions of $$$ Apple has, they certainly could have
> afforded to maintain 32-bit compatibility for smaller developers who
> can't afford to make every change Apple demands, but they make more
> profits if they don't.
>
> Sorry to any Apple fanatics. I just needed to vent my frustration at
> Apple's dictatorial development model.
>
> On 10/8/2019 9:52 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
> > "Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
> > What a beautiful sounding name!
> >
> > But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
> > (I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
> > for speed.
> >
> > I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
> > TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.
> >
> > May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
> > But it's kind of a burial. :-((
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > subscription preferences:
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>
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Re: Catalina

[Pi Digital via use-livecode]

I’m not sure about profits of 64bit other than they now don’t have to pay a 
separate team to keep maintaining out of date 32bit support. 

Here’s a list of alternative options. I personally am going to have Parallels 
with Mojave and SnowLeopard available (as well as Win10, 7 and Ubuntu and 
Raspbian of course). 

https://macpaw.com/how-to/32-bit-apps-not-working-catalina

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 9 Oct 2019, at 15:17, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> they make more profits if they don't
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Re: Catalina

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

Agree!

With all the billions of $$$ Apple has, they certainly could have 
afforded to maintain 32-bit compatibility for smaller developers who 
can't afford to make every change Apple demands, but they make more 
profits if they don't.


Sorry to any Apple fanatics. I just needed to vent my frustration at 
Apple's dictatorial development model.


On 10/8/2019 9:52 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:

"Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
What a beautiful sounding name!

But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
(I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
for speed.

I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.

May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
But it's kind of a burial.   :-((


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Re: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode]

Ditto what Kee said

I so happy with this thread… I didn't know about Matthias's tool's!

Oh.. My.. I do a lot of in house/volunteer tooIs, ….the number of times in the 
past few years have tell, send email, send them to web site… to "Go to System 
Preferences, General down below you will see the app was blocked, click on 
"Allow to open".

Never have to deal with that question ever again? A small developers fee and 
Signing app, is well worth it.

for Windows, I just tell them "ignore security warnings"  Windows users are 
used to that…

Thank you Matthias!

Kee said:
I know a bunch of users who click on everything and download stuff and agree to 
all sorts of silly stuff and then claim that they have been hacked (and perhaps 
they have been hacked). I’m OK with extra steps if the OS becomes safer for 
folks who really do not understand security.
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Re: Catalina is a small, rocky, and largely unprepossessing island.

[francois.chaplais via use-livecode]

I suggest trying Go64 
https://www.stclairsoft.com/Go64/
which tests your apps for 64 compatibility. My business LC seems OK, I have two 
versions of indie for HTML and go64 indicates that the app is 64bits except for 
the update module.
Now I do not know what Catalina will do with this. Nonetheless, I think it 
should be no hassle for LiveCode to recompile their update module.
Best regards
François

> Le 14 juil. 2019 à 21:02, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>  a écrit :
> 
> I wonder if there is a way to get rid of it. What would happen should it be 
> ripped out of the bundle? Would LC die of heartbreak?
> 
> This should be fixed in LC 9.0.6 RC1, but as Mabel told Frederick "It seems 
> so long."
> 
>> On Jul 14, 2019, at 9:47 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Richmond,
>> 
>> is it possible that you´ve enabled one or all options in LC´s 
>> preferences->updates?
>> 
>> If i remember correctly then Panos mentioned in a post that this might come 
>> from updater tool.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Matthias
>> Matthias Rebbe
>> 
>> free tools for Livecoders:
>> https://instamaker.dermattes.de 
>> https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de 
>> 
>>> Am 14.07.2019 um 15:55 schrieb Richmond via use-livecode 
>>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
>>> 
>>> So it would seem.
>>> 
>>> One of the main factors that is stopping me switching my 2018 MacMini over 
>>> to MacOS 10.15
>>> are the continuing messages I am getting about LC 9.0.4 and 9.5 DP1 not 
>>> being optimised for
>>> MacOS 10.14 . . .
>>> 
>>> Richmond.
>>> 
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Re: Catalina is a small, rocky, and largely unprepossessing island.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I wonder if there is a way to get rid of it. What would happen should it be 
ripped out of the bundle? Would LC die of heartbreak?

This should be fixed in LC 9.0.6 RC1, but as Mabel told Frederick "It seems so 
long."

> On Jul 14, 2019, at 9:47 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Richmond,
> 
> is it possible that you´ve enabled one or all options in LC´s 
> preferences->updates?
> 
> If i remember correctly then Panos mentioned in a post that this might come 
> from updater tool.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Matthias
> Matthias Rebbe
> 
> free tools for Livecoders:
> https://instamaker.dermattes.de 
> https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de 
> 
>> Am 14.07.2019 um 15:55 schrieb Richmond via use-livecode 
>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
>> 
>> So it would seem.
>> 
>> One of the main factors that is stopping me switching my 2018 MacMini over 
>> to MacOS 10.15
>> are the continuing messages I am getting about LC 9.0.4 and 9.5 DP1 not 
>> being optimised for
>> MacOS 10.14 . . .
>> 
>> Richmond.
>> 
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Re: Catalina is a small, rocky, and largely unprepossessing island.

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Richmond,

is it possible that you´ve enabled one or all options in LC´s 
preferences->updates?

If i remember correctly then Panos mentioned in a post that this might come 
from updater tool.

Regards,

Matthias
Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
https://instamaker.dermattes.de 
https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de 

> Am 14.07.2019 um 15:55 schrieb Richmond via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> So it would seem.
> 
> One of the main factors that is stopping me switching my 2018 MacMini over to 
> MacOS 10.15
> are the continuing messages I am getting about LC 9.0.4 and 9.5 DP1 not being 
> optimised for
> MacOS 10.14 . . .
> 
> Richmond.
> 
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Re: Catalina is a small, rocky, and largely unprepossessing island.

[JJS via use-livecode]

I think you can ignore them because they are 64bit.

Perhaps the message is only there because maybe there is not certificate 
for LC for Mac.


Just guessing.

SPhere

Op 14-7-2019 om 15:55 schreef Richmond via use-livecode:

So it would seem.

One of the main factors that is stopping me switching my 2018 MacMini 
over to MacOS 10.15
are the continuing messages I am getting about LC 9.0.4 and 9.5 DP1 
not being optimised for

MacOS 10.14 . . .

Richmond.

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Re: Catalina

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

richmond rumbled,
> 
> That's lovely to hear: but as almost all the software I depend on does not 
> seem to have 64-bit versions yet
> I'm sticking with 10.14.



this machine, my main one, is stuck forever at 10.13, so I don’t need to worry 
about that :)

And Adobe 8, for which I have a pro license and only use for redaction of 
documents, is 32 bit, so it needs to stay . . .

— 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462

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Re: Catalina

[Richmond via use-livecode]

That's lovely to hear: but as almost all the software I depend on does 
not seem to have 64-bit versions yet

I'm sticking with 10.14.

Richmond.

On 26.06.19 21:53, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:

On Jun 25, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Richmond via use-livecode 
 wrote:

I got macOS Catalina (10.15) beta "shoved up my nose" by my
Mac's Software update thingy this afternoon.



I went out of my way to get it yesterday, and put it on my MacBook.

9.5 launches and runs just fine so far.

—
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462

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Re: Catalina

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Jun 25, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Richmond via use-livecode 
 wrote:
> 
> I got macOS Catalina (10.15) beta "shoved up my nose" by my
> Mac's Software update thingy this afternoon.



I went out of my way to get it yesterday, and put it on my MacBook.

9.5 launches and runs just fine so far.

— 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462

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Re: Catalina

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

There are a couple places in System Report (About this Mac --> System Report) 
that will show what apps are 32-bit: Software->Applications and 
Software->Legacy Software. I like the latter because it is more complete and 
covers more. For example all of the LiveCode 9 applications are 64-bit, but the 
autoupdater applications are not. I found an old application that is 64-bit but 
it has built-in versions of wine and wine-server that are not. Legacy Software 
also is shorter, so you are less likely to miss something.

> On Jun 25, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I got macOS Catalina (10.15) beta "shoved up my nose" by my
> Mac's Software update thingy this afternoon.
> 
> While I, normally, go for Beta versions of software I am not going
> to touch this one: and may, indeed never upgrade to 10.15.
> 
> One of a whole slew of reasons is that I keep getting warning notices about
> LiveCode 9 + on my Macintosh running macOS 10.14.6 beta about LC not
> being a 64-bit app.
> 
> Now, as far as I understand things (?) LiveCode 9 + is a "fat" thing, having 
> both
> 32-bit and 64-bit code rolled into one package. However, whether that is true 
> or not
> I have a feeling that macOS 10,15 won't accept Fat apps.
> 
> I, also, wonder if LiveCode running on macOS 10.15 will be able to hive off
> 32-bit standalones?
> 
> Richmond.
> 
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Re: Catalina

[Tore Nilsen via use-livecode]

This is easily remedied. Just choose LC 9 in the Finder, choose Show Info and 
make sure you run it in 64 bit mode. I don’t have an English OS setup right 
know, but you should opt out of running the application in what in Norwegian is 
called "low resolution mode". Once you do, you will not get these warnings 
anymore.

Best regards 
Tore Nilsen 

> 25. jun. 2019 kl. 22:01 skrev Richmond via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> I got macOS Catalina (10.15) beta "shoved up my nose" by my
> Mac's Software update thingy this afternoon.
> 
> While I, normally, go for Beta versions of software I am not going
> to touch this one: and may, indeed never upgrade to 10.15.
> 
> One of a whole slew of reasons is that I keep getting warning notices about
> LiveCode 9 + on my Macintosh running macOS 10.14.6 beta about LC not
> being a 64-bit app.
> 
> Now, as far as I understand things (?) LiveCode 9 + is a "fat" thing, having 
> both
> 32-bit and 64-bit code rolled into one package. However, whether that is true 
> or not
> I have a feeling that macOS 10,15 won't accept Fat apps.
> 
> I, also, wonder if LiveCode running on macOS 10.15 will be able to hive off
> 32-bit standalones?
> 
> Richmond.
> 
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