Filter

[Mark Schonewille]

Hi,
I have a long list with text. The syntax
filter myLongList with "*a*|*b*"
should return almost the complete list, but I don't get any data 
returned, while

filter myLongList with "*a*"
and
filter myLongList with "*b*"
both work. What's wrong here?
Mark
--
eHUG coordinator
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.wanadoo.nl/mark.sch
http://www.ehug.info
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Re: Filter

[Alex Tweedly]

Mark Schonewille wrote:
Hi,
I have a long list with text. The syntax
filter myLongList with "*a*|*b*"
should return almost the complete list, but I don't get any data 
returned, while

filter myLongList with "*a*"
and
filter myLongList with "*b*"
both work. What's wrong here?
You should be able to do"*[ab]*"
You're using "filter" as though it tok any normal Regular Epression. It 
doesn't - only

Wildcard expressions are similar to regular expressions. You can use 
the following characters in a wildcard expression:

*
Matches zero or more of any character. The wildcard expression A*C 
matches "AC", "ABC", or "ADZXC".

?
Matches exactly one character. The wildcard expression A?C matches 
"ABC", but not "AC" or "ADZXC".

[chars]
Matches any one of the characters inside the brackets. The wildcard 
expression A[BC]D matches "ABD" or "ACD", but not "AD" or "ABCD".

[char-char]
Matches any character whose ASCII value is between the first character 
and the second character.


--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net

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Re: [ANN] Reminder - online scripting conferences

[Kevin Miller]

On 30/4/05 3:52 am, "J. Landman Gay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Just watch me. :) It is both 3:30 GMT (plus or minus 0.9 seconds) and
> 11:30 EDT (Eastern *Daylight* time) and I can do the Rochester
> conversion for both NY and MN: The conference doors open at 10:30 AM
> Minneapolis time, which is Central Daylight time, which is Rochester MN
> time (but NOT Rochester NY time,) which is the same as Dallas and Omaha
> time. Hah.

For those of you in the UK, don't forget that we are on British summer time,
not GMT.  So its 4:30PM UK time this afternoon.

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools

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Re: A Philosophical Point

[Jim Carwardine]

I didn't have my Cheerio's that morning.  Sorry list.  I'll work on my
flexibility a little harder... Jim

on 4/29/05 10:40 AM, Lynch, Jonathan wrote:

>> For my sake, please stay off the list... Jim
> 
> I strongly object to this sentiment. As one who participates in this
> list, I enjoyed this thread, and do not want John to "stay off the
> list."
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim
> Carwardine
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:55 PM
> To: Revolution Listserve
> Subject: Re: A Philosophical Point
> 
> I don't need to know this, John.  How is RunRev to stay in business if
> they
> don't charge for their product?  You of all people should know how much
> overhead is required to produce bug-free code.  RunRev could not sustain
> itself unless it turned open source and that's not the business model
> they
> are running on.  For my sake, please stay off the list... Jim
> 
> 
> 
> 
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1959 Upper Water Street, Suite 407, Halifax, Nova Scotia. B3J 3N2
Phone: 902-823-2339. Fax: 902-823-2139

What¹s New...

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* Did you do that on purpose?

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To Rev or not to Rev

[Jim Carwardine]

I know there has been lots of discussion on this topic since I joined the
list and I know many Rev'ers on this list have converted to Rev as their dev
language of first choice.

I'm having a continuing conversation with my provider about using his sever
to serve my Rev app.  First was he highly recommended MSSQL, which the list
took exception to.  Then I suggested he take a look at RunRev as a
development tool himself (hoping to get some local expertise using Rev on a
server) and here was his reply...

"it is more of scripting language that a real programming language ­ which
is awesome for the non-technical developers like me and you, but is not a
true object oriented application language which is being taught in
universities."

I don't know what to say about that.

Are there are x-talk/OOP languages that are compiled,
or, a difference between an OOP and an x-talk language,
or, maybe he just assumed that Rev is not a true OOP on first glance? ...
Jim

on 4/26/05 10:30 AM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> It's one of the few databases I'd consider inferior to MySql, not
> because it lacks cross-platform compatibility, but because it is a
> Microsoft product ;-)
> 
> Realistically, any of the major database servers will have advantages
> and disadvantages compared to the others.  I personally like
> PostgreSQL: it is free for both noncommercial *and* commercial use
> (unlike MySql, which is only free for non-commercial use), it is
> reasonably fast and quite powerful, fully ACID-compliant, supports
> stored procedures, views, and so forth, has a sizable user community,
> etc.
> 
> And it runs just fine on my OS X box, along with Windows, Linux, and a
> variety of other platforms.
> 
> On Apr 26, 2005, at 8:49 AM, Jim Carwardine wrote:
> 
>> What about the differences between MySQL and MSSQL.  The proponents of
>> MSSQL
>> are adamant that it is far better.  Is it really?  Of course, it's not
>> x-platform, which is a mark against it in my books... Jim
>> 
>> on 4/25/05 3:58 PM, Bill wrote:
>> 
>>> Yes I agree that SQL is the way to go. I can't wait until the MySQL to
>>> SQLite utility is released so that I can try SQLite. I think it will
>>> be
>>> faster at connecting.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 4/25/05 2:17 PM, "Dan Shafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> 
 
 Anyone else thinking along these lines?
>>> 
>>>   |||
>>>  )_)  )_)  )_)
>>> )___))___))___)\
>>>)))_)\\
>>>  _|||\\\__
>>> ---\   /- http://www.bluewatermaritime.com
>>> ^ ^
>>>    ^^^^^
>>>    ^^^
>>> 
>>> 24 hour cell: (787) 378-6190
>>> fax: (787) 809-8426
>>> 
>>> Blue Water Maritime
>>> P.O. Box 91
>>> Puerto Real, PR 00740
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> OYF is... Highly resourceful people working together.
>> 
>> 
>> Own Your Future Consulting Services Limited,
>> 1959 Upper Water Street, Suite 407, Halifax, Nova Scotia. B3J 3N2
>> Phone: 902-823-2339. Fax: 902-823-2139
>> 
>> What¹s New...
>> 
>> * Have you ever hired an employee who didn¹t work out?
>> 
>> * Did you do that on purpose?
>> 
>> Probably not...
>> 
>> If you want to greatly improve your hiring process,
>>  check out our new hiring process... www.HiringSmart.ca/ns
>> 
>>   and...
>> www.KeepingTheBest.ca/ns 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
> - ---
> Frank D. Engel, Jr.  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> $ ln -s /usr/share/kjvbible /usr/manual
> $ true | cat /usr/manual | grep "John 3:16"
> John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten
> Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
> everlasting life.
> $
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)
> 
> iD8DBQFCbkJa7aqtWrR9cZoRAsoQAJ0aMN6w4NN3gIgLL0JSNe6qY67FzACfab9U
> WgSg71YvUbOWBSxrn/KLB1k=
> =mwRm
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Own Your Fu

Re: Problem with "convert it to seconds"

[Mikey]

It needs more.  FD MEEE


-- 
http://taoof4d.blogspot.com
http://4dwishlist.blogspot.com
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Tiger and windowShape

[Lars Brehmer]

If this appears twice, I'm not sure what happened.  I sent it once and 
it didn't show up, at least not as fast as I am used to.

Has anyone installed Tiger and looked at a revStack or standalone that 
uses a windowShape other than rectangular?

I just installed Tiger on my backup machine to try it out and one of my 
main Rev projects has three stacks with a shape that is basically 
rectangular with a small, round protrusion on the bottom (and slightly 
rounded corners).  Both in rev and in the standalone, there is a 
strange outline parallel to the bottom of the window about 50 pixels 
lower.  It's a little hard to describe, so if anyone out there is 
inclined to take a quick  a look at this strangeness, let me know and I 
will send you screen shots.  I already have made a new empty test 
stack, put the image on it and set the windowShape to the image, and 
the result is the same, so it's not just my existing stacks that behave 
this way.

I really want Tiger on my main machine, so any tips would be very 
appreciated!

Cheers,
Lars Brehmer
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Re: Tiger and windowShape

[Klaus Major]

Hi Lars,
how's doing? :-)
If this appears twice, I'm not sure what happened.  I sent it once and 
it didn't show up, at least not as fast as I am used to.

Has anyone installed Tiger and looked at a revStack or standalone that 
uses a windowShape other than rectangular?

I just installed Tiger on my backup machine to try it out and one of 
my main Rev projects has three stacks with a shape that is basically 
rectangular with a small, round protrusion on the bottom (and slightly 
rounded corners).  Both in rev and in the standalone, there is a 
strange outline parallel to the bottom of the window about 50 pixels 
lower.  It's a little hard to describe, so if anyone out there is 
inclined to take a quick  a look at this strangeness, let me know and 
I will send you screen shots.  I already have made a new empty test 
stack, put the image on it and set the windowShape to the image, and 
the result is the same, so it's not just my existing stacks that 
behave this way.

I really want Tiger on my main machine, so any tips would be very 
appreciated!
My copy of the beast will arrive next week and i will check that one, 
promised :-)

Cheers,
Lars Brehmer
Have a ncie weekend!
Best
Klaus Major
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.major-k.de
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Re: Tiger and windowShape

[Gordon Tillman]

Howdy Lars,
On Apr 30, 2005, at 08:30, Lars Brehmer wrote:
Has anyone installed Tiger and looked at a revStack or standalone  
that uses a windowShape other than rectangular?

I just installed Tiger on my backup machine to try it out and one  
of my main Rev projects has three stacks with a shape that is  
basically rectangular with a small, round protrusion on the bottom  
(and slightly rounded corners).  Both in rev and in the standalone,  
there is a strange outline parallel to the bottom of the window  
about 50 pixels lower.  It's a little hard to describe, so if  
anyone out there is inclined to take a quick  a look at this  
strangeness, let me know and I will send you screen shots.  I  
already have made a new empty test stack, put the image on it and  
set the windowShape to the image, and the result is the same, so  
it's not just my existing stacks that behave this way.
I just tried the windowLab stack.  This is the one that you can run  
from RevNet where you can draw an arbitrary shape and then create a  
window from that shape.

It seemed to work just fine and I wasn't able to duplicate the effect  
that you mentioned.

If you have a specific stack you would like for me to try I would be  
happy to do that.

--gordy
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Hmm... well, first of all, a scripting language *is* a real programming 
language.  Just because a language isn't compiled doesn't mean it isn't 
real.  In fact, every language is interpreted; even "compiled" 
languages are simply translated into machine language, which is 
interpreted by the computer's processor.  It's just a matter of whether 
the language is interpreted by hardware, or by software.

Second, I for one have a Masters degree in Computer Science, and would 
not have made a fraction of the progress I have on the project I am 
doing right now if I were using something other than Rev -- one of 
those so-called "real" programming languages.

As for an object-oriented programming language, no Rev is *not* an 
object-oriented programming language, at least not in the traditional 
sense.

For example, in Rev, let's  say we want to change the label of the 
button; we do this with a command like:

set the label of button "My Button" to "Hello"
In other words, we are giving an instruction to Rev, such that our 
script code changes the button's label.  In more traditional OOP, we 
instead send a message to the button, asking it to change its own 
label; something more like (pseudo-code, not necessarily in any "real" 
programming language):

tell button "My Button" to set its label to "Hello"
At first the distinction may seem quite subtle, and you may not 
recognize the benefits to this, but consider that I want to create a 
new type of button with certain characteristics, one of which is that 
the label of the button always begin with a digit.  I can enforce this 
by having the button reject an attempt to set its label to anything 
other than a string starting with a digit (again with the pseudo-code):

when asked to set my label to x
  if char 1 of x is a number then
set the label of me to x
  else
throw "Invalid Label"
  end if
end when asked to set my label
Note that the prior code would still work the same way, and would not 
need to know what kind of button it was dealing with (of course, it 
would have an exception raised with this kind of button, since "Hello" 
does not start with a digit...)

We can't currently do this with Rev.
On Apr 30, 2005, at 9:06 AM, Jim Carwardine wrote:
I know there has been lots of discussion on this topic since I joined 
the
list and I know many Rev'ers on this list have converted to Rev as 
their dev
language of first choice.

I'm having a continuing conversation with my provider about using his 
sever
to serve my Rev app.  First was he highly recommended MSSQL, which the 
list
took exception to.  Then I suggested he take a look at RunRev as a
development tool himself (hoping to get some local expertise using Rev 
on a
server) and here was his reply...

"it is more of scripting language that a real programming language â 
which
is awesome for the non-technical developers like me and you, but is 
not a
true object oriented application language which is being taught in
universities."

I don't know what to say about that.
Are there are x-talk/OOP languages that are compiled,
or, a difference between an OOP and an x-talk language,
or, maybe he just assumed that Rev is not a true OOP on first glance? 
...
Jim

on 4/26/05 10:30 AM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
It's one of the few databases I'd consider inferior to MySql, not
because it lacks cross-platform compatibility, but because it is a
Microsoft product ;-)
Realistically, any of the major database servers will have advantages
and disadvantages compared to the others.  I personally like
PostgreSQL: it is free for both noncommercial *and* commercial use
(unlike MySql, which is only free for non-commercial use), it is
reasonably fast and quite powerful, fully ACID-compliant, supports
stored procedures, views, and so forth, has a sizable user community,
etc.
And it runs just fine on my OS X box, along with Windows, Linux, and a
variety of other platforms.
On Apr 26, 2005, at 8:49 AM, Jim Carwardine wrote:
What about the differences between MySQL and MSSQL.  The proponents 
of
MSSQL
are adamant that it is far better.  Is it really?  Of course, it's 
not
x-platform, which is a mark against it in my books... Jim

on 4/25/05 3:58 PM, Bill wrote:
Yes I agree that SQL is the way to go. I can't wait until the MySQL 
to
SQLite utility is released so that I can try SQLite. I think it will
be
faster at connecting.

On 4/25/05 2:17 PM, "Dan Shafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Anyone else thinking along these lines?
  |||
 )_)  )_)  )_)
)___))___))___)\
   )))_)\\
 _|||\\\__
---\   /- 
http://www.bluewatermaritime.com
^ ^
   ^^^^^
   ^^^

24 hour cell: (787) 378-6190
fax: (787) 809-8426
Blue Water Maritime
P.O. Box 91
Puerto Real, PR 00740

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Rev & OOP

[Rob Cozens]

Hi All,
I deleted the original message with the intention of passing on this [dare 
I say it, Heather] philosophical question; but a voice inside me keeps 
saying, "I won't let you concentrate until you respond", so:

IMF(oole's)O, the programmer who ruled out RunRev as a development platform 
on the basis of it not being a true OOP language was simply looking for a 
reason to pan it rather than do the kind of in depth analysis required to 
properly evaluate its potential.

The bottom lines for software development are real-world productivity and 
code maintainability, not compliance with the "buzz concept de jour".

Rob Cozens CCW
Serendipity Software Company
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
 Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
 from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Pierre Sahores]

Jim,
I know there has been lots of discussion on this topic since I joined 
the
list and I know many Rev'ers on this list have converted to Rev as 
their dev
language of first choice.

I'm having a continuing conversation with my provider about using his 
sever
to serve my Rev app.  First was he highly recommended MSSQL, which the 
list
took exception to.  Then I suggested he take a look at RunRev as a
development tool himself (hoping to get some local expertise using Rev 
on a
server) and here was his reply...

"it is more of scripting language that a real programming language – 
which
is awesome for the non-technical developers like me and you, but is 
not a
true object oriented application language which is being taught in
universities."

I don't know what to say about that.
Are there are x-talk/OOP languages that are compiled,
or, a difference between an OOP and an x-talk language,
or, maybe he just assumed that Rev is not a true OOP on first glance? 
...
Jim
In the real production-state world, Rev TCP/IP applications servers are 
just :

- running 10 times faster than any Tomcat's or JBoss's hosted app ;
- developped by the app's designers them self in less time it take to 
teams to just tune SAP-based prebuild solutions :
- a mix between the best OOP programming langages guidlines issued from 
the smalltalk paradigm and the power of the best functional langages ;
- running as bytecode on top of a virtual machine that compile the 
scripts once before running them, just like Java try to do lots slower 
;
- a framework able to let us design and build all the 
"Model-View-Controler" n-tier based solutions the Java guys are 
dreaming about when they try to develop in using dozens of differents 
framworks (Tiles, Struts, Hibernate, ..., JMeter,...) without finding 
their "Graal".

As a complement, you can translate what, Michel Lai (one of the bests 
french OOP expert and Java independant CTO, along universities and 
engeeniers schools Professor, the french Ecole Pratique des 
Hautes-Etudes institute where i got my distribued applications Master, 
included) wrote after first testing one of the apps i wrote recently :

Salut Pierre,
Ton appli est vaiment impressionnate. Jamais je n'aurais eu le courage 
d'utiliser Tiles Strust et Hibernate pour gérer des formulaires aussi 
importants ! En tout cas cela donne envie de voir de plus près ce que 
représente REVO. Dans ton cas d'appli très orientée formulaires et 
SGBD (le fameux CRUD) c'est certainement très performants et quasi 
imbattable avec mes bien trop complexes frameworks Java. Cependant 
quid des performances et de la "scalabilité" de la run time.
Combien d'utilisateurs simultanés pourraient tu traiter sur un serveur 
plus conséquent que ton Mac Mini, Par exemple un G5 avec Biprocesseur. 
Utilise tu un gestionnaire de connexions à la base de données (Pools 
de connexions). Peux tu faire du mapping objects /SGBDR ? Comment 
géres tu la récupération de la connexion si un utilisateur quitte le 
site sans avoir cliqué sur quitter ? As tu des exemples de site en 
réelle production supportant une disponibilité de 99,9 % ?
A bientôt.
Michel Lai
If that don't suffice, just let him ask me for a login/password on the 
app Professor Michel Lai is speaking about and i will be aware to let 
him test this web application online...

Hope this can help,
Best Regards,
--
Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores
100, rue de Paris
F - 77140 Nemours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
GSM:   +33 6 03 95 77 70
Pro:  +33 1 64 45 05 33
Fax:  +33 1 64 45 05 33

WEB/VoD/ACID-DB services over IP
"Mutualiser les deltas de productivité"
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Derek Bump]

> "it is more of scripting language that a real programming language ­ 
which
> is awesome for the non-technical developers like me and you, but is not a
> true object oriented application language which is being taught in
> universities."

You know, this is exactly the kind of statement that I really don't 
enjoy hearing.  Who is to say that a script is not a program.  It does 
exactly the same thing.  A computer follows code to determine what to 
do.  Last time I checked, a computer does the same thing with a script.

On top of that, so what if it's not taught in Universities!  A statement 
like that is just like one from those people out there that say "Oh, 
it's NOT from Microsoft...well then it MUST be bad!"

And one more thing.  What programming language is not object oriented? 
Everything is an object.  Pixels, fields, buttons, windows, cursors, 
icons, text, variables, arrays, and so on and so on.  Revolution is 
object oriented, just like C++, Java, JavaScript, Basic and even HTML.

But, if I'm wrong in any of these areas then maybe someone here can set 
me straight?

Derek Bump
Dreamscape Software
http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com/
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Rob Cozens]

Frank, et al:
As for an object-oriented programming language, no Rev is *not* an 
object-oriented programming language, at least not in the traditional sense.

For example, in Rev, let's  say we want to change the label of the button; 
we do this with a command like:

set the label of button "My Button" to "Hello"
In other words, we are giving an instruction to Rev, such that our script 
code changes the button's label.  In more traditional OOP, we instead send 
a message to the button, asking it to change its own label; something more 
like (pseudo-code, not necessarily in any "real" programming language):

tell button "My Button" to set its label to "Hello"
At first the distinction may seem quite subtle, and you may not recognize 
the benefits to this, but consider that I want to create a new type of 
button with certain characteristics, one of which is that the label of the 
button always begin with a digit.  I can enforce this by having the button 
reject an attempt to set its label to anything other than a string 
starting with a digit (again with the pseudo-code):

when asked to set my label to x
  if char 1 of x is a number then
set the label of me to x
  else
throw "Invalid Label"
  end if
end when asked to set my label
Note that the prior code would still work the same way, and would not need 
to know what kind of button it was dealing with (of course, it would have 
an exception raised with this kind of button, since "Hello" does not start 
with a digit...)

We can't currently do this with Rev.
In button script:
on setMyLabel labelName
  if char 1 of labelName is a number then
  set the label of me to labelName
  return empty
  end if
  return "Invalid label name:"&&labelName
end setMyLabel
elsewhere:
send "setMyLabel Hello" to button id targetButtonId
??
Rob Cozens CCW
Serendipity Software Company
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
 Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
 from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631) 

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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[jbv]

Jim,

In the early days of HC (circa 1987/88) I was already facing this
kind of objection from C or Pascal programers...
Even in the early 80's when I was experimenting with Logo, I used
to hear similar comments...

Tell your ISP that (today more than ever) only 1 thing matters :
how much time (and therefore $$$) does it take to produce reliable and
fast code to the satisfaction of your clients...
Show him a few apps made with Rev and ask him how much time (and
$$$) it would take to do the same with Java, C, etc.
Then ask him to compare the learning curve between Rev, Java, C...
One anecdote : a few years ago a friend of mine asked me to teach him
the basics of HC (he already had an experience of coding in Basic).
In less than 1 hr I managed to teach him the basic concepts, and soon he
was up and running... I'm sure the same story could apply to Rev, since
the basic concepts of both tools are similar...

As someone already said, your ISP answer is a way to avoid any depth
analysis of Rev capabilities... It's also the usual answer from ppl who
usually struggle with complex programing environments and who are
bitter to see other ppl developping sophisticated apps 2 to 5 times faster...

JB

> I know there has been lots of discussion on this topic since I joined the
> list and I know many Rev'ers on this list have converted to Rev as their dev
> language of first choice.
>
> I'm having a continuing conversation with my provider about using his sever
> to serve my Rev app.  First was he highly recommended MSSQL, which the list
> took exception to.  Then I suggested he take a look at RunRev as a
> development tool himself (hoping to get some local expertise using Rev on a
> server) and here was his reply...
>
> "it is more of scripting language that a real programming language ? which
> is awesome for the non-technical developers like me and you, but is not a
> true object oriented application language which is being taught in
> universities."
>
> I don't know what to say about that.
>
> Are there are x-talk/OOP languages that are compiled,
> or, a difference between an OOP and an x-talk language,
> or, maybe he just assumed that Rev is not a true OOP on first glance? ...
> Jim
>
> on 4/26/05 10:30 AM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
>
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > It's one of the few databases I'd consider inferior to MySql, not
> > because it lacks cross-platform compatibility, but because it is a
> > Microsoft product ;-)
> >
> > Realistically, any of the major database servers will have advantages
> > and disadvantages compared to the others.  I personally like
> > PostgreSQL: it is free for both noncommercial *and* commercial use
> > (unlike MySql, which is only free for non-commercial use), it is
> > reasonably fast and quite powerful, fully ACID-compliant, supports
> > stored procedures, views, and so forth, has a sizable user community,
> > etc.
> >
> > And it runs just fine on my OS X box, along with Windows, Linux, and a
> > variety of other platforms.
> >
> > On Apr 26, 2005, at 8:49 AM, Jim Carwardine wrote:
> >
> >> What about the differences between MySQL and MSSQL.  The proponents of
> >> MSSQL
> >> are adamant that it is far better.  Is it really?  Of course, it's not
> >> x-platform, which is a mark against it in my books... Jim
> >>
> >> on 4/25/05 3:58 PM, Bill wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes I agree that SQL is the way to go. I can't wait until the MySQL to
> >>> SQLite utility is released so that I can try SQLite. I think it will
> >>> be
> >>> faster at connecting.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 4/25/05 2:17 PM, "Dan Shafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
> 
>  Anyone else thinking along these lines?
> >>>
> >>>   |||
> >>>  )_)  )_)  )_)
> >>> )___))___))___)\
> >>>)))_)\\
> >>>  _|||\\\__
> >>> ---\   /- http://www.bluewatermaritime.com
> >>> ^ ^
> >>>    ^^^^^
> >>>    ^^^
> >>>
> >>> 24 hour cell: (787) 378-6190
> >>> fax: (787) 809-8426
> >>>
> >>> Blue Water Maritime
> >>> P.O. Box 91
> >>> Puerto Real, PR 00740
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> use-revolution mailing list
> >>> use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> OYF is... Highly resourceful people working together.
> >> 
> >>
> >> Own Your Future Consulting Services Limited,
> >> 1959 Upper Water Street, Suite 407, Halifax, Nova Scotia. B3J 3N2
> >> Phone: 902-823-2339. Fax: 902-823-2139
> >>
> >> What1s New...
> >>
> >> * Have you ever hired an employee who didn1t work out?
> >>
> >> * Did you do that on purpose?
> >>
> >> Probably not...
> >>
> >> If you want to greatly improve your hiring process,
> >>  check out our new hiring process... www.HiringSmart.ca/ns
> >> 
>

OT : PearPC

[jbv]

Has anyone seen / used this :
http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/about.html
http://prasys.skidsoftware.com/intro.htm

just curious...
JB

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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Apr 30, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Derek Bump wrote:
On top of that, so what if it's not taught in Universities!  A 
statement like that is just like one from those people out there that 
say "Oh, it's NOT from Microsoft...well then it MUST be bad!"
I do the opposite: "Oh, it's a Microsoft product, so it MUST be bad!"
And one more thing.  What programming language is not object oriented? 
Everything is an object.  Pixels, fields, buttons, windows, cursors, 
icons, text, variables, arrays, and so on and so on.  Revolution is 
object oriented, just like C++, Java, JavaScript, Basic and even HTML.
No, OOP is a somewhat specific paradigm for computer programming, and 
includes certain characteristics which are *not* present in Rev.

Yes, many things are viewed as objects, and Rev even refers to things 
as objects (well, they are, actually), but this does not make Rev an 
object-oriented programming language.  We cannot define custom object 
classes, for example.

Before someone goes and says, "but we have inheritance -- the group 
intercepts messages not received by objects in the group, the card 
receives from the group, etc." -- there is a certain level of 
inheritance in place, and Rev does have many characteristics of an 
object-oriented language.  But I for one would not pretend to call it 
an actual object-oriented language until we can define our own classes, 
subclass those classes *and* the built-in classes (such as button, 
field, group, card, stack...), and so on.  There needs to be a degree 
of scripter-defined polymorphism present, as well.

Note that others may disagree with me here, there are a number of 
conflicting opinions on what it takes to be an object-oriented 
language, but to my mind, you need unbounded subclassing capabilities 
and polymorphism in order to be object-oriented.

Rev does not allow us to do these things right now.  That doesn't mean 
that Transcript is a bad programming language; I think it is quite good 
for solving a large number of problems.  It simply means that it is not 
an object-oriented programming language.

Any more than it is a functional language, btw: Transcript is a 
procedural language with some object-oriented characteristics mixed in. 
 A true functional language has no messages, procedure-equivalents, 
etc.  LISP is an example of a functional language.

In a functional language, the entire program is just one huge function 
call.

A quick Google search reveals this, which may be helpful as far as 
classification of languages:

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?NygaardClassification

But, if I'm wrong in any of these areas then maybe someone here can 
set me straight?
I think I just did ;-)
One more thing: HTML is *not* a programming language in any sense 
whatsoever.  HTML has no constructs for repetition.  HTML is a document 
markup language (which is what it stands for -- hyper-text MARKUP 
language) designed for embellishing statically-formatted documents.  
Things were added later which allow for some degree of interactivity 
(such as forms, etc.), but the actual processing is handled by another 
programming language (such as PHP, Perl, or Rev), *not* by HTML.

OTOH, PostScript is a real programming language, a point which a lot of 
people seem to miss...

- ---
Frank D. Engel, Jr.  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
$ ln -s /usr/share/kjvbible /usr/manual
$ true | cat /usr/manual | grep "John 3:16"
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten 
Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have 
everlasting life.
$
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFCc5tb7aqtWrR9cZoRAhMuAJ995w0q4xHB7VQ83mmpLV/EOLME6gCeKmCn
of9Tsm5e5caKi6gDoSWV0So=
=Eq+/
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: OT : PearPC

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
If you read the license agreement for OS X, there is a clause which 
states that it cannot legally be installed on non-apple hardware.  You 
could use that to run Linux, I'm sure, but you can't legally install OS 
X on that emulator (or any other, for that matter).

On Apr 30, 2005, at 10:54 AM, jbv wrote:
Has anyone seen / used this :
http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/about.html
http://prasys.skidsoftware.com/intro.htm
just curious...
JB
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- ---
Frank D. Engel, Jr.  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
$ ln -s /usr/share/kjvbible /usr/manual
$ true | cat /usr/manual | grep "John 3:16"
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten 
Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have 
everlasting life.
$
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFCc5xS7aqtWrR9cZoRAn2XAJ479ZqaVR2oO0dcwIUEy1xp/iR++wCdGi64
RtVM2vunoUNx8st5lsd9PJE=
=qLvs
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Victor Eijkhout]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Derek Bump wrote:
What programming language is not object oriented? Everything is an 
object.
Object-oriented refers to programmatic objects. Classes, inheritance, 
polymorphism. RR has very little of that.

V.
--
Victor Eijkhout
Innovative Computing Lab, University of Tennessee, Knoxville
865 974 9308
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Rob Cozens]

Frank, et al:
Before someone goes and says, "but we have inheritance -- the group 
intercepts messages not received by objects in the group, the card 
receives from the group, etc." -- there is a certain level of inheritance 
in place, and Rev does have many characteristics of an object-oriented 
language.  But I for one would not pretend to call it an actual 
object-oriented language until we can define our own classes, subclass 
those classes *and* the built-in classes (such as button, field, group, 
card, stack...), and so on.  There needs to be a degree of 
scripter-defined polymorphism present, as well.
I must admit that I fell prey to this line of thinking for the longest 
time, feeling "Give me an OOP concept, and I can script that 
functionality."  It took me some time to realize the difference is that the 
functionality is already built in to the OOP when you open the box.

Still, one can script much of OOP functionality fairly easily, and one is 
not prevented from incorporating OOP concepts in one's design; so I'd label 
RunRev as "quasi OOP".

Example: if Frank's example involved changing a button's name instead of 
its label,

on nameChanged oldName,newName
  if char 1 of newName is not a number then set the name of me to oldName
end nameChanged
Rob Cozens CCW
Serendipity Software Company
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
 Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
 from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Rob Cozens]

Frank, et al:
But I for one would not pretend to call it an actual object-oriented 
language until we can define our own classes, subclass those classes *and* 
the built-in classes (such as button, field, group, card, stack...),
Again, groups and grouped groups can duplicate the functionality fairly 
easily.
Rob Cozens CCW
Serendipity Software Company
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
 Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
 from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Dennis Brown]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 10:51 AM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
OTOH, PostScript is a real programming language, a point which a lot 
of people seem to miss...

As a point of interest, the PostScript syntax is directly related to a 
general machine independent programming language called Forth.  Forth 
was used to control telescopes in the days of the minicomputer.  It 
migrated to various microprocessors and was used a lot in process 
control applications.  Forth is still alive and well today.

Dennis
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Jim Carwardine]

So, in summary, Rev can create an OOP, but an OOP can't create Rev... Jim

on 4/30/05 12:57 PM, Dennis Brown wrote:

> 
> On Apr 30, 2005, at 10:51 AM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
>> 
>> OTOH, PostScript is a real programming language, a point which a lot
>> of people seem to miss...
>> 
> 
> As a point of interest, the PostScript syntax is directly related to a
> general machine independent programming language called Forth.  Forth
> was used to control telescopes in the days of the minicomputer.  It
> migrated to various microprocessors and was used a lot in process
> control applications.  Forth is still alive and well today.
> 
> Dennis
> 
> ___
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Phone: 902-823-2339. Fax: 902-823-2139

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* Did you do that on purpose?

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Re: "convert it to seconds" & "Philosophy"

[simplsol]

Hi Heather,
It's nice to know someone IS listening.
The response I was hoping for was something like this:
 "Yes, Mr. Looney, we are aware of this date/time problem from all of 
the other posts on the discussion group and bugzilla. We, too consider 
it serious and have dispatched the resources to fix it promptly. 
Estimated completion is tentatively scheduled for 7:13 pm GMT on May 
17th of this year. We'd like to thank you, and all of the other people 
who brought this to our attention. We are committed to making Rev the 
best X-talk RAD in the history of civilized mankind. Thank you, again. 
Heather"
OK, that was probably too much to hope for... ;-)
 I agree, in general, that bugzilla is the place for bugs. I only two 
problems with the bugzilla approach:
 1. It seems to have turned into a celestial black hole, where things 
go in but do not come out. Don't misunderstand, the upgrades from 
Version 1 to 2, and 2 to 2.5 were very helpful. But there are critical 
items (like reliable dates) that have not been addressed in all of 
these versions over all of these years.
2. A lot of bugs do not get the votes they should.
 The date/time problem is a good example: people can write, test, and 
sell programs with date/time math that appear to work properly - until 
daylight savings time changes. They won't vote because they don't know 
they have a (serious) problem.
 Another non-voting group is the newbies who try Rev. and, before they 
can be impressed with the vast capacity, easy access, awesome speed, 
etc., they're gone forever because of their experience with the tables, 
menus, documentation, etc. - and, of course, they don't vote.
 Bugzilla is geared toward assisting the veteran Rev. programmer - not 
making Rev. more marketable to (the vital) new users. Many times on the 
list new users have observed the Rev. seems to be a beta product rather 
than a shipping program. I can see why they say this, there are design 
and usability issues beyond what one would expect when moving to a new 
programming environment. These do not get put into bugzilla because we 
veterans have learned to work around them. Some of us take a perverse 
pride in knowing obscure, undocumented, non-intuitive workarounds, 
mentioned on the list 8 to 10 months ago. None of these receive votes 
but they limit sales. And sales of Rev. are important to all users of 
Rev.
 If there was an interest, I could list the top ten items I believe are 
costing Rev. customers, items that may not have many bugzilla votes. Is 
there an interest?

 And last, "philosophy". I usually disagree with everything Richmond 
posts. I certainly do not see any long-term benefit from open sourcing 
Rev. I do like the idea of a free introductory product. But, beyond 
that, I like the idea and the experience of open discussion enjoyed on 
this list. We tend to learn more from those we disagree with anyway. As 
long as discussions are conducted with civility, propriety, and decorum 
please let them continue (under the watchful eyes of the 
ever-supportive listmom).
Paul Looney

-Original Message-
From: Heather Nagey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:40:03 +0100
Subject: Re: Problem with "convert it to seconds"
> I hope someone in Scotland is listening to us...
> Paul Looney
 We listen. Sometimes we even respond... And if the discussion gets out 
of
hand I'll pop up and look stern :)

 But, and you can all sing along with me here ladies and gentlemen, if 
you
want action, you need to post it to bugzilla:

http://support.runrev.com/bugzilla
 This is your list, we observe but we do not intervene very often, and 
you
 should not assume that items reported here will make it onto the 
engineering
fix list.

And by the way, I'd like to congratulate everyone present on the
 fascinating, excellent and mature discussion sparked by what was 
potentially
 a very inflammatory post on "philosophy". As you all know, wine, 
cheese and
 politics are off topic and frowned on, we can now add philosophy to 
that
list :)

Warm regards
Heather
Sometimes listmom, always supportive
--
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please now send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **

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Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools
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Re: "convert it to seconds" & "Philosophy"

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Apr 30, 2005, at 1:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Heather,
It's nice to know someone IS listening.
The response I was hoping for was something like this:
 "Yes, Mr. Looney, we are aware of this date/time problem from all of 
the other posts on the discussion group and bugzilla. We, too consider 
it serious and have dispatched the resources to fix it promptly. 
Estimated completion is tentatively scheduled for 7:13 pm GMT on May 
17th of this year. We'd like to thank you, and all of the other people 
who brought this to our attention. We are committed to making Rev the 
best X-talk RAD in the history of civilized mankind. Thank you, again. 
Heather"
OK, that was probably too much to hope for... ;-)
Yep.
 I agree, in general, that bugzilla is the place for bugs. I only two 
problems with the bugzilla approach:
 1. It seems to have turned into a celestial black hole, where things 
go in but do not come out. Don't misunderstand, the upgrades from 
Version 1 to 2, and 2 to 2.5 were very helpful. But there are critical 
items (like reliable dates) that have not been addressed in all of 
these versions over all of these years.
True for other bugs as well.  There are *lots* of 'em in there.
2. A lot of bugs do not get the votes they should.
 The date/time problem is a good example: people can write, test, and 
sell programs with date/time math that appear to work properly - until 
daylight savings time changes. They won't vote because they don't know 
they have a (serious) problem.
 Another non-voting group is the newbies who try Rev. and, before they 
can be impressed with the vast capacity, easy access, awesome speed, 
etc., they're gone forever because of their experience with the 
tables, menus, documentation, etc. - and, of course, they don't vote.
 Bugzilla is geared toward assisting the veteran Rev. programmer - not 
making Rev. more marketable to (the vital) new users. Many times on 
the list new users have observed the Rev. seems to be a beta product 
rather than a shipping program. I can see why they say this, there are 
design and usability issues beyond what one would expect when moving 
to a new programming environment. These do not get put into bugzilla 
because we veterans have learned to work around them. Some of us take 
a perverse pride in knowing obscure, undocumented, non-intuitive 
workarounds, mentioned on the list 8 to 10 months ago. None of these 
receive votes but they limit sales. And sales of Rev. are important to 
all users of Rev.
 If there was an interest, I could list the top ten items I believe 
are costing Rev. customers, items that may not have many bugzilla 
votes. Is there an interest?
I'm sure I could list a bunch of my own too, that's not the point.  And 
BZ was not meant for "veteran Rev programmers" either, it was meant to 
help us report problems to Rev as we find them, and to make feature 
requests.  If you are looking to benefit the programmers, that would be 
the purpose of this list, correct?

 And last, "philosophy". I usually disagree with everything Richmond 
posts. I certainly do not see any long-term benefit from open sourcing 
Rev. I do like the idea of a free introductory product. But, beyond 
that, I like the idea and
I see a benefit, and right here in this posting, too!!   All these bugs 
everyone is complaining about would have a whole lot more people 
waiting to *fix* them, rather than just report them to an already 
far-too-busy support team!

the experience of open discussion enjoyed on this list. We tend to 
learn more from those we disagree with anyway. As long as discussions 
are conducted with civility, propriety, and decorum please let them 
continue (under the watchful eyes of the ever-supportive listmom).
That would be the general idea.
- ---
Frank D. Engel, Jr.  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
$ ln -s /usr/share/kjvbible /usr/manual
$ true | cat /usr/manual | grep "John 3:16"
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten 
Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have 
everlasting life.
$
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFCc8LP7aqtWrR9cZoRAqwxAJ4wd+jBvB+4wtTFSLy609KQlESwlACeKl8O
GnWjds1EyshuXuPDB0pILCg=
=c3bm
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Rev & OOP

[Dan Shafer]

Oh, darn. I was sort of hoping this thread would fizzle out. Then you 
had to throw down a gauntlet, Rob, and you know how I am about 
gauntlets (and, for that matter, things littering the landscape like 
thrown gauntlets)

I spent MANY years training and conditioning myself to think about the 
world around me in terms of objects. From a programming perspective, I 
find myself always more comfortable dealing with objects in the sense 
in which Smalltalk and Java (and decidedly NOT C++) think about them. 
OOP languages and OODBMS tools have *always* been more productive for 
me than procedural and relational models because once I trained myself 
to "think in objects," those approaches felt -- and were -- unnatural 
to me.

Far from being the "buzz concept du jour," OOP has been around, viable 
and in many places on the globe an all-but-inviolate standard for more 
than 30 years.

Now, that is not to say or suggest that every programming language that 
isn't strict OOP isn't usable or useful. Far from it. I use Revolution 
and Transcript because, even though it's not an OO environment, it is 
what I refer to in my books as "object-LIKE." That is, it represents 
enough of an accommodation of the key ideas of object orientation to be 
usable and useful on medium-sized, single-programmer projects involving 
non-object data. But I must say that if I had a choice of using an 
equivalent development environment that was syntactically as clean as 
Transcript or Smalltalk or Python and gave me the advantages of 
Revolution (cross-platform delivery while developing on my platform of 
choice, true stand-alone creation, great widget library, transparent 
database access), I'd switch in a New York nanosecond. The truth is, no 
such tool exists yet.

So I would agree that the programmer who rejected Revolution out of 
hand without digging more deeply into the advantages it offers and 
shares with OO environments was hasty and ill-advised (and probably, as 
you say, more interested in eliminating alternatives than in finding 
the correct one). But to dismiss OO out of hand is, IMNSHO, equally 
short-sighted. As you so rightly say, the two big concerns are 
programmer productivity and code maintainability. And in those 
respects, Transcript is awfully hard to beat.

FWIW.
On Apr 30, 2005, at 7:21 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:
IMF(oole's)O, the programmer who ruled out RunRev as a development 
platform on the basis of it not being a true OOP language was simply 
looking for a reason to pan it rather than do the kind of in depth 
analysis required to properly evaluate its potential.

The bottom lines for software development are real-world productivity 
and code maintainability, not compliance with the "buzz concept de 
jour".

Rob Cozens CCW
Serendipity Software Company
~~
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Dan Shafer]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 7:31 AM, Derek Bump wrote:
> "it is more of scripting language that a real programming language ­ 
which
> is awesome for the non-technical developers like me and you, but is 
not a
> true object oriented application language which is being taught in
> universities."

I've made a career study of scripting languages. Guys like Prof. John 
Ousterhout, who invented the scripting language Tcl and who can be 
presumed to know a good deal about the subject, have typically 
described the difference between a scripting language and a programming 
language as being one of intent. A scripting language, by their (and 
my) understanding is a language primarily intended to glue together 
processes and applications that would otherwise not be able to interact 
with one another. A programming language may be able to do some or all 
of that as well, but is more typically intended for the creation of 
independent programs.

AppleScript is, IMNSHO, a classic example of that. You *can* write 
quasi-standalone applications in AppleScript but it's painful. But ask 
AppleScript to get data from file A, send it to Application B, lanch 
Application C and print something in a seamless process, and it fairly 
shines.

People who say things like the above are typically only slightly 
informed (and you know what they say about a little knowledge and 
danger) and tend to confuse the issue of scripting vs. programming 
languages with that of interpreted vs. compiled languages. I used to 
get a real kick out of demonstrating Smalltalk apps and having people 
ask me, "How does that thing run so fast?" and then replying 
nonchalantly, "Oh, that's because it's interpreted." Heads nodded 
sagely.


~~
Dan Shafer, Co-Chair
RevConWest '05
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Dan Shafer]

I couldn't resist jumping into this one just briefly.
Forth is one of two programming languages I have tried to learn with 
complete lack of success. The other is LISP. Both are object-oriented 
(at least Forth is in some implementations and LISP is purely). I'm an 
object thinker but these two languages have syntaxes that get in my 
way. Others, I know, find them quite natural. That's why we have so 
many langauges!

On Apr 30, 2005, at 8:57 AM, Dennis Brown wrote:
Forth is still alive and well today.
~~
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Dan Shafer]

I suggest it's the other way around.
One could write a Transcript interpreter and IDE to duplicate that of 
Revolution in Java or Smalltalk, e.g., but it would be all but 
impossible to write a Java compiler or interpreter and IDE in 
Transcript.

But that's moot. Nobody's going to do either. Java is good for some 
things for which Rev is not suited (mostly apps requiring lots of 
interaction with system-level resources and multi-programmer projects) 
and Rev is good for some things for which Java is either overkill or 
cumbersome (almost everything else...LOL).

On Apr 30, 2005, at 9:12 AM, Jim Carwardine wrote:
So, in summary, Rev can create an OOP, but an OOP can't create Rev... 
Jim

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Re: OT : PearPC

[Dar Scott]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 8:55 AM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
If you read the license agreement for OS X, there is a clause which 
states that it cannot legally be installed on non-apple hardware.
My Panther license says this:
 2.A
 This License allows you to install and use one copy
 of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled
 computer at a time.  This License does not allow
 the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer
 at a time [...]
Dar
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[James Spencer]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:
But that's moot. Nobody's going to do either. Java is good for some  
things for which Rev is not suited (mostly apps requiring lots of  
interaction with system-level resources and multi-programmer  
projects) and Rev is good for some things for which Java is either  
overkill or cumbersome (almost everything else...LOL).

Amen.  Everytime I see one of these "language wars" start up I'm  
always amazed that folks have forgotten that these are TOOLS and like  
hardware tools, each tool has certain jobs that it is best suited  
for.  There are lots of different hammers out there but I would not  
use a tack hammer for the same job that I would use an 8 lb maul.   
That does not mean that a tack hammer is better or worse than a  
maul.  (This is not to say there are personal preferences; IMHO, for  
things that Rev is not good for, I would use almost anything rather  
than Java which I don't much care for.)

Spence
James P. Spencer
Rochester, MN
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Badges??  We don't need no stinkin badges!"
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throw vs the result

[Dar Scott]

I was wondering what people prefer as far as "fatal" errors in 
executing a custom command, such as in a library.

Should that be in a non-empty value returned by result()?
Or should that cause some error message to the thrown?
Or does it depend on the error?
Dar
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saving settings.

[Paul Salyers]

Dear Rev Programmer,
I'm trying to get my program to save information into a text file.
I'm using this format, is something wrong?
put gDate1 && gDate2 && gDate3 && gDate4 && gDate5 && cr \
into url ("file:" & tFolderName & slash & "settings.txt")
It's saving "gData1" instead on the information help in "gData1"
These are global settings but they do not change.
I want them do come out like so:
"Settings1","Settings2","Settings3","Settings4","Settings5"
They must be in this format to be compatible with VB programs not yet 
converted to Rev.

Please help
Paul Salyers
PS1 - Senior Rep.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://ps1.SoftSeven.org  

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Re: saving settings.

[Alex Tweedly]

Paul Salyers wrote:
Dear Rev Programmer,
I'm trying to get my program to save information into a text file.
I'm using this format, is something wrong?
put gDate1 && gDate2 && gDate3 && gDate4 && gDate5 && cr \
into url ("file:" & tFolderName & slash & "settings.txt")
It's saving "gData1" instead on the information help in "gData1"
gDate1 or gData1  ?
These are global settings but they do not change.
I want them do come out like so:
"Settings1","Settings2","Settings3","Settings4","Settings5"
i.e. with the quotes ??
Do you, by any chance, actually have a line like the following ?
put "gData1" && "gData2" && etc.  

You would probably want
put quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData2 & etc.
or perhaps
put quote & comma & quote into myBetween
put quote & gData1 & myBetween & gData2 & myBetween & etc.
--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net

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Re: saving settings.

[Paul Salyers]

You would probably want
put quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData2 & etc.
or perhaps
put quote & comma & quote into myBetween
put quote & gData1 & myBetween & gData2 & myBetween & etc.
--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net

Close I now have:
"gData1","gData2","gData3","gData4","gData5
At least the quotes & comas are in place but the information in the data is 
not getting saved.

I used:
put quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote 
& gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData1

Paul Salyers
PS1 - Senior Rep.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://ps1.SoftSeven.org  

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Re: Working with animated gifs

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 9:42 AM -0400 4/26/05, Glen Bojsza wrote:
I was wondering if there are some general guidelines on how to use
animated gifs in Rev on the XP platform?
Turning the animation on and off would be my first question. I
understand that I can set the repeat and direction properties in the
property inspector and that actually shows the animation but how do
you do it at the script level?
Check out these properties: repeatCount, currentFrame, frameCount, 
and palindromeFrames.

To start the loop, set the repeatCount of the image to the number of 
repeats you want, or to -1 (to keep repeating indefinitely):

  set the repeatCount of image "My Animation" to 1 -- does 1 repeat
  set the repeatCount of image "My Animation" to -1 -- infinite loop
To stop the loop, set the repeatCount of the image to zero. The image 
will keep displaying the frame it was on when you stopped it, so if 
you want to display the first frame, set the currentFrame to 1. To 
display the last frame, set the currentFrame to the image's 
frameCount:

  set  the repeatCount of image "My Animation" to 0 -- stops repeating
  set the currentFrame of image "My Animation" to 1 -- displays first frame
  set the currentFrame of image "My Animation" \
   to (the frameCount of image "My Animation") -- displays last frame
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Dan Shafer]

I used to feel this way. And I don't code in Java myself, preferring 
Python when Rev won't do. But the latest changes to Java and the 
brilliant IDEs (e.g., Eclipse) and widget toolkits (e.g., 
Windowbuildedr Pro), have really streamlined the dev process. OTOH, 
it's still Java, which is syntactically far too much like C/C++ for my 
personal taste.

But when a client needed an app that did stuff nobody I could find 
could figure out how to do in Rev without a LOT of coding while there 
were dozens of Java libraries available for each of those tasks, I 
realized why a lot of people choose Java, Python and other languages 
with great third-party (and mostly free) libraries.

On Apr 30, 2005, at 12:55 PM, James Spencer wrote:
IMHO, for things that Rev is not good for, I would use almost anything 
rather than Java which I don't much care for
~~
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Re: saving settings.

[Dennis Brown]

Well that why you are only getting the data from gData1 everywhere.  
Look at what you used!

Dennis
On Apr 30, 2005, at 5:53 PM, Paul Salyers wrote:

You would probably want
put quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData2 & etc.
or perhaps
put quote & comma & quote into myBetween
put quote & gData1 & myBetween & gData2 & myBetween & etc.
--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net

Close I now have:
"gData1","gData2","gData3","gData4","gData5
At least the quotes & comas are in place but the information in the 
data is not getting saved.

I used:
put quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData1 & quote & comma & 
quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData1 & quote & comma & 
quote & gData1

Paul Salyers
PS1 - Senior Rep.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://ps1.SoftSeven.org
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Re: saving settings.

[Paul Salyers]

it's data1, data2, etc.
At 05:10 PM 4/30/2005, you wrote:
Well that why you are only getting the data from gData1 everywhere.
Look at what you used!
Dennis
On Apr 30, 2005, at 5:53 PM, Paul Salyers wrote:

You would probably want
put quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData2 & etc.
or perhaps
put quote & comma & quote into myBetween
put quote & gData1 & myBetween & gData2 & myBetween & etc.
--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net

Close I now have:
"gData1","gData2","gData3","gData4","gData5
At least the quotes & comas are in place but the information in the data 
is not getting saved.

I used:
put quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData1 & quote & comma & 
quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & 
gData1

Paul Salyers
PS1 - Senior Rep.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://ps1.SoftSeven.org
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Paul Salyers
PS1 - Senior Rep.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://ps1.SoftSeven.org
(918) 465-7426 -- Cell
(918) 967-1013 -- Home 

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Re: To Rev or not to Rev

[Derek Bump]

> As someone already said, your ISP answer is a way to avoid any depth
> analysis of Rev capabilities... It's also the usual answer from ppl who
> usually struggle with complex programing environments and who are
> bitter to see other ppl developping sophisticated apps 2 to 5 times 
faster...

I agree with this, as I at one time did it myself (I'm so ashamed).  I'm 
a straight HTML coder, and nothing drove me more crazy than seeing 
someone use FrontPage or Dreamweaver to develop a web site.  The 
scenario is just the same as someone writing a C++ app in 1 month and me 
writing the same app with Rev in just a few days.  A little animosity.

I now more or less don't care what one uses to develop a program, just 
as long as the final "result" is a decent program that is creative and 
solves a problem.

And though I don't understand OOP, I do appreciate you fine folks trying 
to explain it to me.  I guess I am forever convinced that xTalk is as 
object oriented as a language can get

   put key in ignition
   rotate key 120 degrees
   rotate key -120 degrees
   apply pressure to accelerator
   --  It all just "looks" like objects to me :)
Derek Bump
Dreamscape Software
http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com/
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Re: throw vs the result

[Derek Bump]

Dar Scott wrote:
I was wondering what people prefer as far as "fatal" errors in executing 
a custom command, such as in a library.

Should that be in a non-empty value returned by result()?
Or should that cause some error message to the thrown?
Or does it depend on the error?
Dar
I will tell you what I prefer, put it all into the result.  My reason: 
I hate the idea that a custom library, or even the Rev IDE, will not 
allow my script to continue because it ran into an error doing something.

For Example:  When someone tries to modify an image with JPEGCompress, 
sometimes the IDE hick ups and spits out the "can't open file (or mask 
file)" error and stops my script completely.  This is extremely annoying 
when it could just return that same error in a result which my script 
could test for and decide what to do.

It's just easier on the target and gives the programmer more control.
Derek Bump
Dreamscape Software
http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com/
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Sorting Multiple Fields

[Roger Guay]

I have 6 list fields side-by-side each with the same number of  
lines,  with synchronized scrolling and synchronized hilitedLines.   
Is there an easy way to sort the first field and have the data in the  
other fields follow the sort.  That is to sort the whole group on the  
first field?

Thanks, Roger
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Re: Sorting Multiple Fields

[Stephen Barncard]

Is there a certain reason you have to use synchronized fields at all? 
Won't tabbed fields work better for you, or are you doing a lot of 
stuff with column math?

sqb
At 4:02 PM -0700 4/30/05, Roger Guay wrote:
I have 6 list fields side-by-side each with the same number of 
lines,  with synchronized scrolling and synchronized hilitedLines.  
Is there an easy way to sort the first field and have the data in 
the other fields follow the sort.  That is to sort the whole group 
on the first field?

Thanks, Roger
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about Rev XML libs and XSLT files...

[Andre Garzia]

Hi Folks,
trying not to reinvent the wheel here, can RevXML library transform a 
given XML using a XSLT file or I'll have to write code for that (or 
maybe shell to some tool who can..)

cheers
andre
--
Andre Alves Garzia  2004
Soap Dog Studios - BRAZIL
http://studio.soapdog.org
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Re: throw vs the result

[Andre Garzia]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 6:22 PM, Dar Scott wrote:
I was wondering what people prefer as far as "fatal" errors in 
executing a custom command, such as in a library.

Should that be in a non-empty value returned by result()?
Or should that cause some error message to the thrown?
Or does it depend on the error?
Dar
Dar,
my convention is:
* Use return codes if the error is not a critical one. more like a 
mistake then an error.
* Use throw if the error is a karma-burning pyrotechinical mayhem from 
hell.

This way I can split my code inside a Try/Catch structure, inside the 
try clause I work the code fine taking notice of possible mistakes and 
avoiding them. If something really wrong happens then the catch block 
will take care of it. This makes my code more manageable. Also it 
brings a distinction between errors and mistakes/warnings which I think 
is good.

Cheers
andre
--
Andre Alves Garzia  2004  BRAZIL
http://studio.soapdog.org
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Re: Rev & OOP

[Mark Wieder]

Dan-

Saturday, April 30, 2005, 11:31:09 AM, you wrote:

DS> world around me in terms of objects. From a programming perspective, I
DS> find myself always more comfortable dealing with objects in the sense
DS> in which Smalltalk and Java (and decidedly NOT C++) think about them.

I'm in agreement with everything you said there (and I'm quite shocked
to hear myself say something like that) except for the following:

OOPness in java and in C++ is very much in the same "sense" if you're
actually programming C++ as C++ and not as "a better C". I, on the
other hand, have too much baggage of years of C programming behind me
to do this properly. Java forces this on you while C++ lets it slide.

Now, having said that and still having the floor, there are some
elements of OOP in transcript as it is today: message inheritance is
done right, even though you can't subclass objects (I'd *love* to be
able to do that); polymorphism can, of course, be applied to any
language - it's just a matter of how much work a given language
requires to implement it; encapsulation is... well... you can fake it
with custom properties.

...and I'm really taken with the eclipse IDE, especially with the
jUnit plugin.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Filter

[Mark Wieder]

Alex-

Saturday, April 30, 2005, 3:11:55 AM, you wrote:

AT> You're using "filter" as though it tok any normal Regular Epression. It
AT> doesn't - only

I'm constantly running up against this one, too, so I just filed
bugzilla #2805 for regex extensions in the filter command.

http://support.runrev.com/bugdatabase/show_bug.cgi?id=2805

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

...also - you misspelled "espresso" 

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Re: Sorting Multiple Fields

[Alex Tweedly]

Roger Guay wrote:
I have 6 list fields side-by-side each with the same number of  
lines,  with synchronized scrolling and synchronized hilitedLines.   
Is there an easy way to sort the first field and have the data in the  
other fields follow the sort.  That is to sort the whole group on the  
first field?

Seems like there should be an easy way, doesn't it :-)
but I couldn't  think of one when I did something similar recently - 
here's what  I came up with is (with 3 fields to save me typing)

  set the itemDel to TAB
  put 0 into ct
  put empty into temp
  repeat for each line L in field "F1"
put L & TAB & line ct of field "F2" & TAB & line ct of field "F3" 
& cr after temp
add 1 to ct
  end repeat
  sort temp
  put empty into field "F1"
  put empty into field "F2"
  put empty into field "F3"
  repeat for each line L in temp
put item 1 of L & cr after field "F1"
put item 2 of L & cr after field "F2"
put item 3 of L & cr after field "F3"
  end repeat
 
Note - it would be faster to copy the whole of each field into a 
variable before doing something like the above - then copying the whole 
variable back at the end; only worth it if these are very large fields.

--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net

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Re: throw vs the result

[Dar Scott]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 5:31 PM, Andre Garzia wrote:
my convention is:
* Use return codes if the error is not a critical one. more like a 
mistake then an error.
* Use throw if the error is a karma-burning pyrotechinical mayhem from 
hell.
I suppose if a library only used results you could do this:
   moveRobot robotName, plan
   if critical(the result) then throw "kbpm from hell"
Dar
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Re: Sorting Multiple Fields

[Dave Cragg]

On 1 May 2005, at 00:02, Roger Guay wrote:
I have 6 list fields side-by-side each with the same number of lines,  
with synchronized scrolling and synchronized hilitedLines.  Is there 
an easy way to sort the first field and have the data in the other 
fields follow the sort.  That is to sort the whole group on the first 
field?

One way is to keep a "master copy" of the data with tab-separated 
columns. You can store this in a custom property. When you need to 
sort, sort the master copy and then run a routine to re-display the 
data in the separate fields. This is what I usually do for tables made 
of synchronized scrolling fields.

Cheers
Dave
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Re: Sorting Multiple Fields

[Ken Ray]

On 4/30/05 6:02 PM, "Roger Guay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have 6 list fields side-by-side each with the same number of
> lines,  with synchronized scrolling and synchronized hilitedLines.
> Is there an easy way to sort the first field and have the data in the
> other fields follow the sort.  That is to sort the whole group on the
> first field?

Easiest way is to use a single field with tabstops set for the different
columns. That way, it's all in one field and can be sorted like this:

put fld "Data" into tData
set the itemDel to tab
sort lines of tData by item 1 of each
put tData into fld "Data"

Or, if you don't have a lot of data, you can do it directly with the field:

sort lines of fld "Data" by item 1 of each

HTH,

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: throw vs the result

[Dar Scott]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 4:42 PM, Derek Bump wrote:
I will tell you what I prefer, put it all into the result.  My reason: 
I hate the idea that a custom library, or even the Rev IDE, will not 
allow my script to continue because it ran into an error doing 
something.
I understand.
Some folks like the throw, so they don't have to bubble error results 
all the way up a series of calls, especially with functions.  They 
prefer to use a try-catch at the top.

Thanks, so much for your comments.
Dar
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Re: throw vs the result

[Dar Scott]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 3:22 PM, Dar Scott wrote:
I was wondering what people prefer as far as "fatal" errors in 
executing a custom command, such as in a library.

Should that be in a non-empty value returned by result()?
Or should that cause some error message to the thrown?
Or does it depend on the error?
OK, well, what about a library that exports lots of functions, such as 
a math library?  Functions don't have a separate result for an error.

Should the error be a special value in the result and propagated 
through?
Or should an error function tell whether there was an error since the 
last call to error function?
Or should an error be thrown?

Dar
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Re: saving settings.

[J. Landman Gay]

On 4/30/05 4:53 PM, Paul Salyers wrote:
Close I now have:
"gData1","gData2","gData3","gData4","gData5
At least the quotes & comas are in place but the information in the data 
is not getting saved.

I used:
put quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData1 & quote & comma & 
quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote & gData1 & quote & comma & quote 
& gData1
When you get the name of the variable instead of the contents, it is 
almost always because nothing has been put into the variable to 
initialize it.

Your variable names start with "g" -- are they intended as global 
variables? Are they declared as globals?

Also, try this in the message box:
  global gData1;put gData1
Does the message box show a value?
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Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Sorting Multiple Fields

[J. Landman Gay]

On 4/30/05 6:02 PM, Roger Guay wrote:
I have 6 list fields side-by-side each with the same number of  lines,  
with synchronized scrolling and synchronized hilitedLines.   Is there an 
easy way to sort the first field and have the data in the  other fields 
follow the sort.  That is to sort the whole group on the  first field?
If you want to twist your brain in knots, you can sort using a function:
local lKeyData, lLineCounter
on sortBy keyField -- parallel sorting of linked flds
  put fld keyField into lKeyData
  put "data1,data2,data3" into dataFields -- fill in your fld names here
  repeat with i = 1 to the number of items of dataFields
put 0 into lLineCounter -- must be reset prior to each sort
sort lines of fld (item i of dataFields) by key()
  end repeat
end sortBy
function key
  add 1 to lLineCounter
  return line lLineCounter of lKeyData
end key
Based on an old HyperCard script by Brett Sher.
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Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: throw vs the result

[Phil Davis]

Dar Scott wrote:
On Apr 30, 2005, at 3:22 PM, Dar Scott wrote:
I was wondering what people prefer as far as "fatal" errors in 
executing a custom command, such as in a library.

Should that be in a non-empty value returned by result()?
Or should that cause some error message to the thrown?
Or does it depend on the error?

OK, well, what about a library that exports lots of functions, such as a 
math library?  Functions don't have a separate result for an error.

Should the error be a special value in the result and propagated through?
Or should an error function tell whether there was an error since the 
last call to error function?
Or should an error be thrown?

I like the 'special value' idea.
What if the last (or first?) param passed to the function by my script 
is the value to be returned to my script if an error occurs?

OR, maybe the error value is in a known global I can set.
However it's implemented, I personally like having a user-definable 
error value.

Phil Davis
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Scripting conference transcript

[J. Landman Gay]

I've just uploaded the revised scripting conference stack, which now 
contains a transcript of the online chat. You can grab it for reference 
on the regular web page: .

This was an incredible experience and I am very happy with the outcome 
of our maiden voyage. Kevin was terrific and the participants were 
involved and enthusiastic. I have to thank everyone who came, you all 
made it a success. I think we intrigued some newcomers and the old 
timers had a ball.

If you weren't there, you missed the tee shirt. :)
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: throw vs the result

[J. Landman Gay]

On 4/30/05 11:27 PM, Phil Davis wrote:
Dar Scott wrote:
OK, well, what about a library that exports lots of functions, such as 
a math library?  Functions don't have a separate result for an error.

Should the error be a special value in the result and propagated through?
Or should an error function tell whether there was an error since the 
last call to error function?
Or should an error be thrown?

I like the 'special value' idea.
What if the last (or first?) param passed to the function by my script 
is the value to be returned to my script if an error occurs?
The HyperCard standard for this was to preceed the value with a special 
string, commonly "Error:". Then your handler just checks to see if word 
1 is that string.

put myFunction() into tValue
if word 1 of tValue = "Error:" then
  -- something went wrong; check the rest of the string
else
  -- do your thing
end if
Not fancy, but it works.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: throw vs the result

[Phil Davis]

J. Landman Gay wrote:
On 4/30/05 11:27 PM, Phil Davis wrote:
Dar Scott wrote:
OK, well, what about a library that exports lots of functions, such 
as a math library?  Functions don't have a separate result for an error.

Should the error be a special value in the result and propagated 
through?
Or should an error function tell whether there was an error since the 
last call to error function?
Or should an error be thrown?

I like the 'special value' idea.
What if the last (or first?) param passed to the function by my script 
is the value to be returned to my script if an error occurs?

The HyperCard standard for this was to preceed the value with a special 
string, commonly "Error:". Then your handler just checks to see if word 
1 is that string.

put myFunction() into tValue
if word 1 of tValue = "Error:" then
  -- something went wrong; check the rest of the string
else
  -- do your thing
end if
Not fancy, but it works.

I like this better than what I proposed. Simple is good.
Phil Davis
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Re: throw vs the result

[Dar Scott]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 10:38 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:
The HyperCard standard for this was to preceed the value with a 
special string, commonly "Error:". Then your handler just checks to 
see if word 1 is that string.

put myFunction() into tValue
I suppose this would propagate:
  put myOtherFunction( myFunction() ) into tValue
...so that if myFunction has an error the "Error:" string will be in 
tValue

Dar
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