Re: [Mandelbrot] Code Samples/Comparisons

[Bill Marriott]

Thanks Alejandro, Andre, Phil, Roger, Till, and others!


How much time does this
take to you, from understanding the
code to creating the stack?


I should have logged it eh? I would say the research on Mandelbrots was 
definitely the hardest part; that took me a few hours and I actually walked 
through the "How to Draw a Mandelbrot by Hand" wikiHow article. That was 
spread over a couple days. Finding the George Taylor article really gave me 
a leg up on coding the routine, and I would say I probably put an hour or so 
into actually building the stack, altogether, getting the basic plotting 
done. Then another 30 minutes getting the zoom function to work the way I 
wanted to and tweaking its layout.


If you notice, the code in my uploaded stack varies a bit from what I 
posted, and runs slightly faster. Since then I've been really thinking about 
how to further speed up the rendering and how to best to handle the 
colorization part.


I'm really glad you liked the post and stack; it's fun to play with.

- Bill 



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[Mandelbrot] Code Samples/Comparisons

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Mark,


what about using task/code examples from
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/. Revcoders (us, runrev ltd?..)  will

I think that's a great idea.

Sorry, Kevin, I think it's a Very Bad Idea.


Thanks so much for taking the time to do this! But I think it's a *great*
example, and I am going to show you why.

Let's start out with a few observations:

- How "practical" is this? I took a closer look at the site.

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=mandelbrot&lang=all&box=1

The goal of the routine is to generate a mandelbrot image in the .PBM
format. Now, this has some relevance I suppose in testing CPU performance,
but not exactly in the real world. How many programs read PBM, for one? None
on my Mac, but Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro could read it on my Windows PC.
How fun is it to run this program, then load the result up in a graphics
editor? About as much fun as punch-card, batch programming.

- The original Pascal program (or at least your transliteration of it) *has
a bug!* Give the output file an extension of .pbm and load it into a program
that can read that format. You'll find that the image is skewed more and
more as the dimensions increase.

http://revuser.com/mandel/orig-600.png

In either Pascal or revTalk, as coded, it's going to be a challenge to find
out where that bug lies.

- It doesn't seem like it was that hard to "transliterate" the original
Pascal code. I was impressed by the similarities, actually. Even then, there
are portions of your revTalk version that are a little more readable. Since
the vast majority of this is mathematics, and we're not out to reinvent
algebraic notation, you're right that it's not the best showcase. Math is
going to be math in any programming language. It's certainly not *less*
readable. What makes it hard is the Mandelbrot formulas and especially the
encoding into .pbm format (which is what requires all those bit operations.
(Maybe all of the examples from that site are like this?)

- Pascal is considered a pretty "easy" language. Did you check out what the
"solution" looks like in Java?

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=mandelbrot&lang=javaxint&id=3

In C++?

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=mandelbrot&lang=gpp&id=5

Woah! :)

- Well our performance is a is a bit disappointing relative to the "command
line" Pascal version, we *do* beat out variants of PHP, Python, Ruby, and
Perl, depending on what your processor was versus the one used for the
benchmarks.

- You were able to add a nice GUI file selector dialog trivially. Now,
imagine that your goal isn't to produce a .pbm image, but rather to show
something on-0screen the user could interact with in some way. Things
get more interesting. This is where Rev starts to shine. The
further away you get from "pure" math and have to get into user interface,
interaction with local and remote file systems, manipulating data sets, and
business logic issues, the better we look. Our language abstracts the
operating system, so developers don't need to be concerned with the proper
API to call for common tasks.

- Most (but not all) of us are not using Rev to generate Mandelbrot data.
We're creating usable applications for business tasks, entertainment and
educational software, database front-ends, etc. It might well be that this
site/link is all about these kinds of math-intensive routines. I didn't look
too closely at them, admittedly. What I did like about Viktoras' suggestion
was that he found a site with some sample code in a variety of languages. I
think it's healthy for us to look for such examples and discover the
strengths and weaknesses that emerge when we try to express them in revTalk.

My take on the "productivity" equation is that it's not merely the number of
lines of code produced, and it's ultimately not even how fast the code
executes. In most situations, it's how long it takes to express the
algorithm, and debug it later on. To encapsulate algorithms in flexible user
interfaces. To take things to an extreme: a routine
built with machine code or assembly will always execute faster than one
built in a high-level language. But how many of us could sit down and write
a database front-end in assembly? How long would it take? How usable and
adaptable would it be?

Another way to look at things is from the artist's viewpoint. There are
people who will never touch digital photography because they are expert at
the analog process. There are illustrators who will never give up their
charcoals. There are Lego builders who spurn the non-rectangular bricks! And
thank heaven for them, because I respect the desire for control and
attention to nuance. In a similar vein, other languages can indeed reward
sweating details like what kind of number you're trying to store, manually
allocating and releasing memory, etc.

We're not promising to be the tool that lets you rewrite OpenGL or even
build a competitor to Excel. Instead, we're a tool that comp

Re: OT OS X HD Partitioning, multiple OSs

[Bill Marriott]

Roger,


Also, you won't have to keep converting your hd file between Parallels and
Fusion. They will both comfortably use the same BootCamp partition (not at
the same time of course).


This led to great unhappiness last time I tried it, and constant 
re-activation of Windows, as well.


- Bill 



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Re: OT OS X HD Partitioning, multiple OSs

[Bill Marriott]

Your main choice is to Boot Camp or not to Boot Camp. Your second choice is 
which virtual machine product to use.


If you Boot Camp, you gain the advantage that you can reboot your Mac into 
Windows natively. This has performance and compatibility benefits, 
especially with games that use hardware acceleration.


However you do have to give up hard disk space to the Boot Camp 
installation, which can be tricky to resize if you don't have a utility that 
will preserve the partition contents when resizing them. So give it as much 
space as you can reasonably justify. (I gave mine 80GB out of 320GB.)


You also lose the ability to do "snapshots" of the Windows OS, which both 
leading virtual machine products support. (Snapshots let you muck around 
with the guest OS and then revert it to its previous state painlessly.)


If you have more than 2GB or RAM, and you decide to Boot Camp, you should 
absolutely use Windows 7 Professional 64-bit or you will not be able to 
utilize all your RAM. [You're unlikely to give Windows more than 2GB RAM 
under a virtual machine.] Otherwise you could get away with Windows XP 
Professional or 32-bit Windows 7 Professional. Get an "OEM" version to save 
money. You need Professional or better to satisfy Microsoft licensing for VM 
use, and to get a decent feature set. Don't waste your time with Vista.


Parallels is decidedly faster than VMware (verified personally and by a few 
in-depth reviews out there). It offers the Aero interface from within the 
Mac (pretty), and a new presentation option I like called Crystal. Both 
products are reportedly somewhat slower with Boot Camp partitions than with 
their own virtual ones. I've tried VirtualBox and it completely munged up 
one of my Linux partitions before ... only has to happen once.


The Parallels support for Linux is a bit nicer than VMware's, and it's 
easier to install their "virtual machine additions" as well. I have tried 
both. VMware has a nasty habit of breaking your sound card support or mouse 
wheel or worse when it updates itself. This can be maddening to resolve 
unless you know Linux inside and out. I own both but use only Parallels now.


You should probably go with Ubuntu, as it's recognized as the leading 
distro.


If you never will run a Windows game or develop 3D applications with Rev, 
and will use Windows only occasionally, then the decision is easy: don't 
Boot Camp. This will eliminate the need for partitioning, give you the 
maximum usage of hard disk space for the Mac, and run more than well enough 
for most purposes.


- Bill

"jim sims"  wrote in message 
news:34483903-4ce5-43e9-90cf-c9f90470d...@ezpzapps.com...

 I might be getting a 13" 160 GB  MacBook Pro

I'm thinking of using VMware Fusion to add at least one version of 
Windows or maybe more. This will hopefully be my travel machine that I 
want to use for development while away, so I'd like to get all I might 
need in it.


I usually don't have tons of music, movies, and stuff on my machine so  I 
think the 160 GB should do.


What have other people done with their machines?

What OS(s) have you loaded - XP, Vista,Windows 7?

If Linux, what flavor might be the best/most common to develop for?

How did you partition it? What sizes for each?

What would you do differently if they did it over again (likely the  most 
informative question/answer!)?


TIA
sims
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Re: Code Samples/Comparisons

[Bill Marriott]

This is a very useful comment, Viktoras!

I still want code.

I will give a shiny new RunRev mug to the first five people who submit 
plausible, actual code samples to me according to my original request.


- Bill

"viktoras d."  wrote in 
message news:4b18eb2e.6030...@ekoinf.net...
what about using task/code examples from 
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/. Revcoders (us, runrev ltd?..)  will 
still have to write quality examples in Rev which would be a challenge :-) 
Quality of the code there is good enough as computer language benchmarks 
game aims to create the shortest and fastest running executables for all 
the open source languages out there. So both number of lines, speed of 
execution and memory use are taken into account..


I think for the community of revcoders it would be interesting to compare 
revTalk in that context too :-).




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Re: Code Samples/Comparisons

[Bill Marriott]

David,


Hmm. While that may be in the company's interest, is it really in ours.


IMHO what's in RunRev's interests is in our users' interests.

Bill 


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Re: Is it possible to change the revlet embed html?

[Bill Marriott]

Mark,


It's possible, but it's a bad idea. The template is stored as a custom
property in an IDE stack, and changing it will change the HTML created
for any revlet.


I don't do much mucking around in the IDE, but I wonder what that custom 
property might be. Could the OP write a stack for his students which says 
something like, "set the revHTMLtemplate of stack such-and-such to myHTML"? 
These stacks aren't "saved" when you quit Rev, are they? If I'm right about 
both of these, couldn't his students double-click that stack, use his custom 
template, and quit without making permanent changes to revMedia? I could see 
some benefit to adjusting this template, perhaps I'll bring it up as a 
feature request for future versions. In the meantime, have you sleuthed down 
the name of that custom property?


George,


In a way, this situation is caused by the lack of a revMedia stack player,
so that stacks could be saved after alteration (a new assignment added)
instead of being transformed into an unchangeable revlet. I guess the 
folks

at RunRev see a player as adding so much functionality that offering
revMedia for free would no longer be good business.  I'm not so sure about 
that.


It's not that we find the Player to be adding so much functionality; nothing 
to do with business model per se. It's that the revWeb plugin is essentially 
the new "Player." Better to focus on having one piece of software end users 
would install to "play" stacks than two. For one thing, it's one less code 
base to maintain. For another, when we flesh out the mechanics of hosting 
revlets within system windows, you would theoretically be able to 
double-click a revlet and have it open much like it did in the old Player.


- Bill 



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Code Samples/Comparisons

[Bill Marriott]

Hi everyone,

We've taken your feedback to heart and will be putting effort into 
significantly improving our comparisons. (It obviously doesn't help to put 
up "straw men.")


To that end, I would very much appreciate contributions from the community. 
If you have code samples in other languages that you feel would be good 
illustrations of how revTalk can be shorter and/or more readable, please 
either post them to the list or mail directly to me -- bill.marriott (at) 
runrev.com.


We're especially interested in :

- ActionScript (Flash)
- REALbasic
- PHP

and to a lesser extent

- C/C++/C#
- Visual Basic
- Java
- JavaScript

If you are able to replicate the functionality with a revTalk example, all 
the better. Try to focus your efforts on real-world tasks, classic 
programming challenges, things everyone building software can relate to. And 
of course, areas where revTalk really shines.


While it won't be the same as getting "recognized experts" [in those other 
languages] to produce the examples, I know there's a wealth of knowledge 
here in the use-list and am hoping you'll contribute some sterling examples.


Thanks very much,

Bill
RunRev marketing guy

Whatever the answer, Andre raised a very relevant point, with which I 
fully agree, that Rev is not well served by using a comparison against 
what others feel is very poor code. [...]


To truly demonstrate Rev's ability against other code, get the code 
written by a recognised expert in that language (somebody like Bruce Eckel 
for Java and C++). Yes, it would cost money but I believe it would be 
money well spent. 



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Re: Rev 4.0 article on TheServerSide

[Bill Marriott]

Jan,

Prepare for "I'll stick with a real programming language, thank you very 
much"
remarks; but it will hopefully drive traffic to the runrev.com site for 
Java developers

sitting on the fence with JavaFX, Flex,...


Just remember, "Real programmers don't use plain English." :)



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Re: Ethics... and the lack of it.

[Bill Marriott]

Alejandro,

So let me be sure I have this right:

1) You wrote some software over time
2) The client decides to appraise the value of it, so he puts it out to bid
3) And intends to use the highest bid to "declare" the value of the software

I suppose it all depends on what the meaning and context of "declare" is.

For example: If I pay someone $10,000 to build a deck on my house, but it 
actually increases the value of the house by $50,000 somehow, then that 
would probably be a legitimate thing to do, if I was preparing to sell the 
house or accurately determine the property taxes due. Is he selling his 
business?


Perhaps the client is trying to make a decision about the value of using a 
Rev-based solution (which may have lower development costs, but fewer people 
who know Rev well enough to maintain it) versus one that based on a more 
widely known tool (which may be more expensive to develop, but gives him 
greater flexibility choosing a developer).


Where do you see the ethical dilemma? Is it that he is using the highest bid 
to determine the value, versus the average bid, or the actual amount paid? 
Each method could be appropriate in differing circumstances. Of course it 
could also be mis-used.


Personally, I'd be interested in what he comes up with. This way you could 
market yourself to other clients saying, "I developed a solution for $W in X 
amount of time that could well have cost my client up to $Y and taken Z 
amount of time!"


Bill 



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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Bill Marriott]

 In 1987 Apple introduced a product based on the genius of SmallTalk that 
it called HyperCard.


I've always been baffled by the comparisons to SmallTalk. Message passing, 
perhaps, but the syntax couldn't be more different.


What back-room finagling prompted the MetaCard people to change their name 
[...]
[...] the entire lineage of programming tools was based upon the insights 
of two men


MetaCard did not change its name; the technology was purchased outright by 
RunRev; and Dan Winkler, not Bill Atkinson, invented HyperTalk. Winkler, 
incidentally, is a fan:


"I'm especially impressed with the way you've preserved the same feel and 
flavor of HyperCard even in all the new features you've added and revised... 
When I finally got to Revolution it was like coming home again... You have 
created a very worthy successor to HyperCard, the only one I've seen which 
captures, preserves and seamlessly extends everything I thought was great 
about the original." -- Dan Winkler 



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Re: Who's using what dbs?

[Bill Marriott]

Alex,


I have had problems with MySQL and large BLOBs.


Why use large BLOBs, as opposed to keeping them external to the DB and 
storing merely a reference to same?


- Bill 



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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Randall,

My intent in replying is not to say you're "wrong" or even to disagree with 
you... just to point out that Heather's only request was if one felt like 
posting to "keep it positive" -- in the sense of being respectful toward the 
*blog author*, not being positive about Revolution.


Heather wrote:


If you feel the urge to post a
comment, the blogger is inviting debate - just keep it positive...
it's probably best not to wade in guns blazing if you disagree with
his view. I think there is an interesting debate to be had here.


There's surely a diversity of opinions about Rev in the use-list; the posts 
are not 100% rosy. Some current and former customers have mentioned their 
dislikes, skepticism of our bold productivity claim, etc. Heather certainly 
invited that.


I would hope there could be some way of posting notice here of a prominent 
article about us that would be regarded appropriate by everyone. Perhaps it 
was the wording that turned you off? What would you like to see happen in 
the future? Should news of such articles come only from customers?


As a marketing guy (who did *not* request Heather's posting), I will say the 
guerilla effect is welcomed. Between this article and the coverage on 
Slashdot, our site traffic surged. It garnered us many new visitors... more 
in the space of a couple days than we usually get in a month. I certainly 
don't see the articles as fluff. They are controversial; the comments raise 
many points, good and bad, about us. The Slashdot threads being almost 
brutal. Yet we've seen thousands of fresh faces give our products a look-see 
for themselves.


It's easy to forget how small we really are. The vast majority of people 
making software today have never heard of us. We are a tiny fraction of the 
former HyperCard user base. Yet, we are arguably the most successful, 
usable, and capable implementation of that vision around. We see ourselves 
as stewards of that legacy. Our major investments this past year, including 
the Web plugin and free revMedia, are designed not only to deliver more 
value to customers, but also to expose orders of magnitude more people to 
our unique philosophy of software construction.


As fans of xTalk (a heritage we've reinforced and given homage to by naming 
our language "revTalk"), I would wish all of us would have a stake in the 
vitality of our efforts -- getting the word out and reminding people there 
is indeed still such a thing as "programming for the rest of us." I, for 
one, wouldn't be coding at all these days if it weren't for Rev.


- Bill, RunRev marketing guy 



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Re: Repeat Loop

[Bill Marriott]

Actually, to reveal the true issue, try this:

repeat with n = 0 to 1 step 0.1
put n & tab & (n - 1) * 1000 & return after aList
end repeat
put aList into fld 1

Rounding error. On the second-to-last iteration, Rev doesn't think it's 
quite reached "1" yet, so it goes through the loop one more time.


 wrote in message 
news:d38.5da91e5a.38386...@aol.com...

Bug in last post;

But going from -1 to 1 (or -1 to 0 or 0 to -1) gives 12 interations, one
extra. --either 22 or 12, not 21 or 11. Anyway, one extra.

An extra iteration is performed if 0 is within the range of the loop
counter. It seems that when the counter reaches its max value, if 0 was in 
the
range, the max value is run one more time. For the example of 0 to 1, the 
1 is

looped twice.

"Schwartz, Jonathan L."  
wrote in message 
news:17969d855f28964c88d177d45b6cdf11032fcb8...@imcmbx2.mitre.org...

Has anyone had a problem with the following?

on mouseUp
  repeat with n = 0 to 1 step 0.1
 put n&"," after aList
  end repeat
  put aList
end mouseUp

Returns
0,0.1,0.2,0.3,0.4,0.5,0.6,0.7,0.8,0.9,1,1.1,




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Re: Revlets and certificates

[Bill Marriott]

Devin,

Can anyone tell me whether a revlet can use the security certificate  of 
the host web server? Or does it need its own? I'm a relative  certificate 
novice, so forgive me if my question is hopelessly naïve.


I don't believe revlets would use a cert; the revWeb plugin does. That's the 
code that's actually running from the OS perspective; the revlet is just a 
"document" that the revWeb plugin is "playing." 



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Re: get the color of this card at x,y

[Bill Marriott]

That code didn't work for me ... Probably need something more like,

lock screen
put the screenmouseLoc into coord
set the screenmouseLoc to 350,350
put the mousecolor
set the screenmouseLoc to coord
unlock screen

Alternately, one can export snapshot consisting of a single pixel and parse 
its contents.


Wilhelm Sanke wrote"

get the color of this card at x,y
 and I would expect it to contain r,g,b


"click at x,y
put the mousecolor"




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Re: Biting the Apple

[Bill Marriott]

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/development_tools/revolutionmedia.html

I assure you our "press release" is correct on that. But more importantly, 
Apple lists us their all on their own; we did not contact them. My review of 
that page shows:


What's New in this Version
- Now Free
- Publish to the Web
- Dynamic Graphic Effects
- Learning and Reference
- Usability

Did I miss a reference to a price tag that we should notify Apple about (in 
addition to the name change to "revMedia")?


Marc Siskin wrote:

Great placement!  Now we have to get the press release corrected to show 
that RevMedia is free and not $49.


On Nov 18, 2009, at 11:59 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:


I saw RevMedia here:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/
today. Congratulations, RunRev!




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Re: Getting url

[Bill Marriott]

Google is detecting the "browser" you're using and formatting the results 
differently.


The default User Agent String for Rev is something like "Revolution(Win32)." 
Use the httpHeaders command to set one that resembles your desired browser. 
e.g.:


Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1)

The resulting HTML code should then match.

"James Hurley"  wrote 
in message news:097c4fd2-75da-40c9-ab0a-cdfc8e168...@sbcglobal.net...

I am trying to do address verification.

For example, the county DB lists the following two address

10187 Grinding Rock Dr [tab] Grass Valley CA 95945
and also
10187 Grinding Rock Dr [tab] Grass Valley CA 95949

I want to find out (programatically) if the zip should be 95945 or 95949

So here is my dillema:

When I do a Google search for the 95945 zip code address I get a page 
that tells me that the zip code should be 95949


When I compare the source code of this page with the RunRev result  from 
the following:


get url 
"http://www.google.com/search?q=10187%20Grinding%20Rock%20Dr%09Grass%20Valley,%20CA%2095945 
"


The value of "it" is not the same as the source code of the Google  search 
page. Not even close.


What am I missing?

Jim Hurley


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Re: How do I renew license?

[Bill Marriott]

Michael,

The Order Now button directs to to the "Early" software assurance package 
page for your edition of Rev. Simply enter your license code as supplied in 
the email, and you will receive the price shown. There are no additional 
discounts on this price.


Normally your license code would not be eligible for the "Early" update 
package, and you would have to purchase the normal update pack, which is 
twice as expensive. The offer went out to select Enterprise and Studio 
customers and is only available until the end of this week.


Somehow the, "You'll get all the new versions of revStudio released for the 
coming year automatically" sentence in your email is incorrect. It should 
say "revEnterprise."


We'll be sending a reminder mail at the end of the week and ensure our 
instructions are more clear.


- Bill

"Michael Kann"  wrote in 
message news:345288.70445...@web56704.mail.re3.yahoo.com...
Can anyone point me to the webpage where I can renew my license at the 
special "expired a long time age" price. I always end up at the regular 
order page. Is there a special coupon code I need? Thanks for the help. 
One more thing: I get the digest, so if someone responds could they also 
send me an e-mail.


This is the promo I received:

Our records show you are an existing user of revEnterprise. Normally, 
because you purchased so long ago, your license would not qualify for the 
lowest upgrade pricing. But as part of our Rev 4.0 launch celebration, you 
have the opportunity to get revEnterprise 4.0 at our lowest possible 
upgrade price, just $199 instead of the usual upgrade of $399. That's a 
$200 savings when you act by Nov 20. Plus, your software assurance pack 
purchase today will ensure you get the new stuff we have coming. You'll 
get all the new versions of revStudio released for the coming year 
automatically.


Just click the "Order Now" button to take advantage of this offer. For 
your convenience, your existing license code is: 
x 



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Re: Wake up Revolution

[Bill Marriott]

Colin wrote:
>If a thousand people experience great performance and one person 
>experiences very poor performance, would it not seem worthwhile to 
>consider the cause of the difference may lie with the system's 
>configuration?


You can't use logic for this case, otherwise you would argue that if on a 
particular machine you can open and run a stack without any issues in 2.9, 
and if you open and run the stack in 4.0 you get two minute long lock up 
of the machine every time you press a certain key, obviously 4.0 is the 
only thing that was changed in the test, and so must be at fault.


Actually, one can and should use logic here. The former is an example of 
logic; the latter is, well, superstition. The difference is "sample size." 
If I buy two loaves of bread at the store, and one is stale but the other is 
fresh, I can make no logical inferences about the cause of the staleness 
even if superficial aspects like "expiration date" and "wrapper color" are 
the same and the only apparent difference is the brand. The fault could lie 
among a hundred different variables. You cannot compare two loaves and say 
with any confidence that "Brand X" is a better bakery than "Brand A." 
Neither loaf can be said to be representative of the larger population.


However if 999 loaves of Brand X turn up fresh and one loaf is stale, it's 
logically valid to infer there must be something about the unique 
handling/processing/delivery/storage of that particular loaf that has caused 
the problem. Perhaps the wrapper was torn while unpacking, or a 6-year-old 
kid with grubby hands opened it and stole a slice while it was on the store 
shelf, etc.


Mark wrote:

Who says that thousand people experience great performance?! I, for
one, don't.

I am pretty sure that Inselfan did something that should just work in
Revolution without problems and figuring out the source of the problem
is a process that one should not have to go through with a development
environment like Revolution in the first place!


Mark, I'm sure that if it took you minutes to hide/show the Tools Palette 
and anything more than milliseconds to navigate between cards, we would have 
heard from you about it before now. I would also say that investigating 
reasons for mysterious slowdowns in projects is an unavoidable task in any 
development environment, especially one like Rev which is designed for 
authoring/deployment on so many varied platforms. Having said that, a 
refresh of the IDE probably is needed -- for efficiency, to update the 
look-and-feel, and to exploit new features like behaviors --and is in the 
works.


In this particular instance there are so many variables and factors we do 
not know about the situation. Does this problem occur with all stacks or 
just the 16MB one? Is the Property Inspector open, and to what pane? Are 
there any third-party add-ons installed that have not been designed for the 
post-2.9 world?


It's also easier than ever to do testing, especially on Windows where you 
have Microsoft's Virtual PC 2007 and freely downloadable images of the 
Windows XP and Vista operating system. I'd really like to see what happens 
if Horst downloads one of those images, installs Rev 4.0 fresh, and tries 
his stack.


I'm not saying there definitely is NOT some obscure change made in Rev 4.0 
that causes this interaction. But I'm saying it hasn't cropped up before 
despite extensive usage by hundreds of other people. I'm confident that a 
configuration change will solve the problem, or failing that we will learn 
something about the particular usage scenario that needs to be addressed, 
either by the end user or RunRev. Without going through the troubleshooting 
process, we will never know. It certainly isn't fair to encounter something 
like this and throw one's hands up saying, "Ah, Rev 4.0 is obvious crap!"


Richmond wrote:


There is a school of thought that RunRev have tried to expand the
capabilities of Revolution rather too
rapidly, without taking care of some 'nuts-and-bolts' glitches that have
been around for some time.


Perhaps. But as someone who wrote just over three years ago that "Quality is 
Job #1," I have to disagree with this school. We've come a long, long way. 
RunRev spent more than a year and a half working on the 
free-for-almost-everyone Rev 2.9, which addressed hundreds of those issues, 
re-architected tons of internals, and brought the Linux edition up to speed 
with the other platforms. The result was a measurable, marked improvement in 
quality, and a more robust platform that has enabled much-needed 
"nuts-and-bolts" enhancements since then: the new tabbed script editor 
(3.0); the data grid and behaviors (3.5); and the Web plugin (4.0). All of 
which have been delivered on a predictable schedule with more far more 
external testing -- both in terms of number of users and length of 
testing -- than prior versions. At the same time, we have halved the retail 
price of the product and even introduced the f

Re: Revolution on 65 Bit Windows

[Bill Marriott]

Stewart,

Rev and its standalones have worked just fine on my 64-bit versions of Vista 
and Windows 7. Haven't tried Windows Server 2008, but I'm sure that would 
work too.



I don't know if this has been answered before, but I need to know if you
can run a compiled Revolution application on a 64 bit Windows machine
running either Windows Vista or Windows Server 2008?




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Re: [OT] Who still uses a Mac PPC?

[Bill Marriott]

I wouldn't try to run Win98 on bare-metal new hardware, as there are likely 
to be new devices (including motherboard/chipset drivers) which Win98 
doesn't know about. But within Virtual PC 2007 and at least VMWare it runs 
perfectly. I haven't tried to run it under Parallels. Also, be sure you are 
trying to install a "pure" Win98, not an OEM-branded distribution, as those 
are often highly customized for the particular hardware they are provided 
with.


Specific cases of trouble aside, it *does* work generally, and it's really 
great to have the ability to have multiple machines-within-machines running 
at near 100% performance with support for virtualization in modern CPUs. The 
inability to run Mac OS within a virtualized environment is a huge 
disadvantage for developers.



"Bob Sneidar"  wrote in message 
news:49ca2471-a5f1-4d8f-bf1d-5d2a184af...@twft.com...
Really? Maybe it's better now, but when I tried to install it in 
parallels I could not get it to work in spite of all the help and docs 
that described how you could. Further, we had to abandon an old air 
conditioning control system because it ran as a DOS Shell and we  couldn't 
install 98 on any new laptops or towers from Dell.


Bob Sneidar
IT Manager
Calvary Chapel CM
Sent from iPhone

On Aug 26, 2009, at 14:41, William Marriott 
 wrote:


Which unlike Mac OS, you can still run on even the latest hardware  and 
software (Core i7, Windows 7 64-bit) in a wholly supported, high- 
performance way via Virtual PC 2007 (and several other VM products).



Richmond Mathewson wrote:

Reminds me of Windows 98; which, if you are a Windows fan, was a  fairly
high point.


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Re: Rev Player?

[Bill Marriott]

You'll find links to download the Rev Player 3.0 here:

http://www.runrev.com/downloads/all-downloads/full-list/

Specifically:

http://developer.runrev.com/components/revolution/media/3.0.0-gm-3/Revolution%20Player.exe

http://developer.runrev.com/components/revolution/media/3.0.0-gm-3/Revolution%20Player.dmg



"Paul Gabel"  wrote in 
message news:13c97a03-d1fc-4fbf-926f-8b3c87275...@comcast.net...
Does anyone know if Revolution Player is still being supported? All I  can 
find is Player 2.7.1, and my stack created in Rev 3.5 won't open  in it.


Thank you, Paul Gabel
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Re: Rev 4 beta status

[Bill Marriott]

Patience, grasshopper :)

You wouldn't want a plugin that opened your computer to security threats or 
crashed your browser would you? I'm not saying Beta 1 won't do those things, 
but they won't be as obvious or frequent.


Keep in mind we also are supporting the following "platforms:"

Safari Mac
Firefox 3.0/3.5 Mac
IE7/IE8 Windows XP
IE7/IE8 Vista/7
Firefox 3.0/3.5 Windows XP
Firefox 3.0/3.5 Vista
Firefox Linux
... and variations like Chrome and Opera

We're discovering each of these has its own little quirks. Point taken about 
not being so optimistic about beta announces.


"Len Morgan"  wrote in 
message news:4a572091.2030...@crcom.net...

Now TWO weeks and not a peep.  Any kind of update on the progress?

For future reference: I would have been far happier getting a "surprise" 
email letting me know a beta was available than getting told one would be 
available and then not seeing it.  Sometimes, ignorance IS bliss.



Kevin Miller wrote:

Hi all,

Well folks, we got really very close to having a build this evening [...] 



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Re: Terms: revLet, webLet?

[Bill Marriott]

"revlets" is indeed the official term and they can be used on ANY host not 
just on-rev. 



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Re: looking for a good Zip Tool on Mac

[Bill Marriott]

Tiemo,

> I am looking for a Mac OS (freeware?) Zip-Tool with a GUI, where you can
> choose Source and Target Dir, as you can do it with all zip tools on Win.

I highly recommend 7-zip.

http://7-zip.org/download.html

If you scroll down you will see versions for Mac OS X. 



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Re: moving domain to on-rev

[Bill Marriott]

No, the name of the folder does not have to include the .com suffix. In fact 
it could be anything at all.

"Claudi Cornaz"  wrote in 
message news:e83961a8-510c-4517-a70e-ead1bedb7...@fiberworld.nl...
> Thanks for the reply Bill,
>
> I have now created a subdomain cc-imaginering, which is working.
> I will now ask my isp to try again to change the nameservers, hoping  it 
> will work this time.
>
> I have one more question though. Now there is no .com or, .nl in my  case, 
> for the subdomains site folder.
> Do I have to change this for the add on domain, or does the name for  the 
> site folder just stay cc-imaginering.
>
> Best wishes,
>  Claudi
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Inefficient code - Solutions

[Bill Marriott]

Bernd,

Actually in my testing on my machines, over about 20 tests, your change ends 
up being slightly slower by about 1%, depending on the images :) I think 
it's because you downshift into checking pixel-by-pixel again, and there 
would have to be fewer checks that way then if the check range were larger. 
It's interesting how the timed duration can change from one execution to the 
next.



[I] added a forward search when the
comparison is not unequal, figuring that going forward yields faster
results. Well it kind of does, if one thinks 5 to 10 milliseconds are an
improvement...



  put 4 into tIncrement

[...]

 -- we found one or more unchanged pixels; skip this section of data
 add rangeToCheck to currPixel

 -- this is added to Bill's original code
 -- assume there are more unchanged pixels and go forwards
 repeat while char currPixel+1 to currPixel+tIncrement of ImageA = \
char currPixel+1 to currPixel+tIncrement of ImageB
add tIncrement to currPixel
add tIncrement to tIncrement
if tIncrement > dataLength then exit repeat
 end repeat
 -- end addition to Bill's code

 -- and update the range to encompass the remainder of the image
 put dataLength - currPixel into rangeToCheck



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Re: moving domain to on-rev

[Bill Marriott]

I'm not sure how my earlier post got mangled, perhaps spell checking? Here's 
a tidier version.



There are two kinds of domains:

- subdomain
"mysite" is the subdomain of on-Rev in http://mysite.on-rev.com

- add-on domain
"mysite.com" is the domain of http://www.mysite.com

An "add-on" domain is really what I would prefer to call a "true" domain.

You cannot create a true domain on on-Rev without having the DNS pointing 
to us. And cPanel won't complain if you follow these steps:


1. Create a SUB domain mysite. Put the folder at the top level like I 
suggested.

2. Upload your files there
3. Verify everything works by going to http://mysite.on-rev.com
4. When you're satisfied it works, make no further changes to your site on 
the original host

5. Switch the nameservers over to on-Rev
6. Set up an ADD-ON domain on on-Rev for mysite.com, pointing to your 
existing folder.


The DNS change will take 24-48 hours for everyone on the Internet to be 
updated with your new address, but will occur instantly for many, and 
within a couple hours for most. In the meantime, visitors will just see 
your old site until their particular DNS server gets the updated 
information, at which point they will go to your new site on on-Rev. They 
should not get any errors if you follow this procedure. Use 
mysite.on-rev.com for your own purposes (FTP, checking web pages) until 
you are certain the DNS has been updated for yourself. I've followed this 
process for a couple domains already and unless something has changed 
recently, I know it works.



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Re: Inefficient code - Solutions

[Bill Marriott]

Thanks for the encouragement! I have uploaded the test stack to [the new] 
revOnline, with some enhancements to make it easier and more fun to test. 
the tags are:


compare algorithm benchmark bitmap difference
imageData performance pixels

I've also uploaded it here:

http://bill.on-rev.com/linked/Compare2.zip

The full script for my algorithm is:

  --
  --

  put 0 into currPixel
  -- ImageA contains the imageData of image A
  -- ImageB contains the imageData of image B
  -- script assumes both images are the same dimension
  put the length of ImageA into dataLength
  put dataLength into rangeToCheck

  -- check a range of pixels for differences.
  -- the range begins with the full image
  repeat while currPixel < dataLength
 -- keep slicing the range in half until we find unchanged pixels
 repeat while byte currPixel+1 to currPixel+rangeToCheck of ImageA <> \
byte currPixel+1 to currPixel+rangeToCheck of ImageB
-- aha, the range we're testing has changes
if rangeToCheck >= 8 then
   -- eight bytes is at least two pixels...
   -- it's still too big; slice it in half
   put rangeToCheck div 4 div 2 * 4 into rangeToCheck
else
   -- we're down to a single changed pixel now
   -- record which pixel has changed (offset within the imageData)
   put 1 into bytesChanged[currPixel+1]
   -- move to the next pixel;
   -- assume that changed pixels are near each other
   add 4 to currPixel
end if
 end repeat
 -- we found one or more unchanged pixels; skip this section of data
 add rangeToCheck to currPixel
 -- and update the range to encompass the remainder of the image
 put dataLength - currPixel into rangeToCheck
  end repeat

  --
  --

"Jerry J"  wrote in message 
news:f1333741-0799-4e69-b341-eb047c9d9...@jhj.com...
Bill, I'd like to see your final test stack also. I have another 
approach, but it doesn't give correct answers yet, at least I don't  think 
so - at this point I'm no longer sure what the right answers  are. Mine's 
recursive, and I can't wait to get it running right so we  can see how 
fast it is (or not).

--Jerry J



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Re: moving domain to on-rev

[Bill Marriott]

Claudi,

I'm not sure if you're following the right steps.

There are two kinds of domains:

- sub
"my" is the sub of on-Rev in http://mysite.on-rev.com

- add-on domain
"my.com" is the domain of http://www.mysiite.com

An "add-on" domain is really what I would prefer to call a "true" domain.

You cannot create a true domain on on-Rev without having the DNS pointing to 
us. And cPanel won't complain if you follow these steps:

1. Create a SUB domain my. Put the folder at the top level like I suggested.
2. Upload your files there
3. Verify everything works by going to http://mysite.on-rev.com
4. When you're satisfied it works, make no further changes to your site on 
the original host
5. Switch the nameservers over to on-Rev
6. Set up an ADD-ON domain on on-Rev for my.com, pointing to your existing 
folder.

The DNS change will take 24-48 hours for everyone on the Internet to be 
updated with your new address, but will occur instantly for many, and within 
a couple hours for most. In the meantime, visitors will just see your old 
site until their particular DNS server gets the updated information, at 
which point they will go to your new site on on-Rev. They should not get any 
errors if you follow this procedure. Use mysite.on-rev.com for your own 
purposes (FTP, checking web pages) until you are certain the DNS has been 
updeted for yourself. I've followed this process for a couple domains 
already and unless something has changed recently, I know it works.

- Bill

"Claudi Cornaz"  wrote in 
message news:049e3cce-1431-4ea9-b62b-e920b1df8...@fiberworld.nl...
> Hi all,
>
> I am trying to move a existing domain to on-rev. The site is on line  and 
> I want to transfer it.
>
> So as sugested in a couple of posts I started out by adding a domain  to 
> my on-rev account via cPanel.
> I set the home directory of this site at the root level and not within 
> the public_html folder of my home folder.
> (this was suggested by Bill in one of the posts I've read)
>
> cPanel did complain, exactly like I read in the posts but did create  the 
> folder for this domain anyway (including a cgi-bin folder),
> so all looked ok. I transfered some files over and tryed to acces the 
> index file at:
> www.claudi.on-rev.com/cc-imaginering.nl/index.html  (cc-imaginering.nl  is 
> the domain I try to move) to see if it works.
>
> Unfortunatly I got a 404 errror. (the requested URL /cc-imaginering.nl/ 
> index.html was not found on this server)
> The same file uploaded to my public_html folder works just fine
>
> My first question is how do I get to my site to test it. Is the URL I 
> entred wrong?
> Is there some setting I overlooked?
>
> The second problem I encoutered is the following
>
> There is a part of the site which I don't want to be down for a couple  of 
> days while the DNS update takes place so
> I contacted my ISP where the site is currently hosted and asked them
> to change the nameservers to ns1.on-rev.com and ns2.on-rev.com but 
> leaving the site on there servers till
> the DNS update has taken place. They where ok with this and tried to  do 
> it.
>
> Next I got a mail from them telling me that they got the following  error 
> from SIDN
> Errors=1, Warnings=1, Informational=1
> ** Summary: REJECTED cc-imaginering.nl.
> Some problems need to get fixed:
> - Some of your name servers cannot be used (are broken).
> ** Full check report:
> * general reports
> Warning: all specified name servers are on sub-net 74.54.153.0/24
> * primary name server "ns1.on-rev.com." [BROKEN]
> Broken: the name server does not know of domain "cc-imaginering.nl."
> * secondary name server "ns2.on-rev.com."
> Info: problems with the primary, so not all tests run.
> ** DNScheck 4.2.6, 2009/06/29 15:45:16 CEST+0200
>  fail
>
> I don't know if both things are related, maybe, but I realy like the  site 
> to stay working during the DNS update
> I hope that it is possible.
>
> If anyone can help me out I would appriciate it very much
>
> Sincerly,
>   Claudi
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Re: [ON-REV] on-rev server and labelling directories "cgi-bin"

[Bill Marriott]

Nicolas,

I've encountered this on other cPanel-based hosts. The ISP was not much 
help, however. I think cPanel protects that directory so that only internal 
processes can access it, for security. Try using the form on on-Rev's 
support page if you haven't already...

- Bill

> Pushing the OT envelope maybe but...
>
> Does the on-rev server treat subdirectories
> and their contents differently when the
> directory housing them is labelled "cgi-bin"?
>
[...]
> when I try to access the images
> inside "kweto.net/cgi-bin/junkimg/", I get
> a 500 error. 



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Re: Inefficient code - Solutions

[Bill Marriott]

Bernd,

Thanks for the pointer... I believe I've corrected the error. Here's the key 
part of the loop with friendly variable names and comments:

  -- starting with the whole image, check a range of pixels for 
differences
  -- keep slicing the range in half until we find a block of unchanged 
pixels
  repeat while char currPixel+1 to currPixel+rangeToCheck of ImageA <> \
 char currPixel+1 to currPixel+rangeToCheck of ImageB
 -- aha, the range we're testing has changes
 if rangeToCheck >= 8 then
-- eight bytes is at least two pixels... it's still too big; 
slice it in half
put rangeToCheck div 4 div 2 * 4 into rangeToCheck
 else
-- we're down to a single changed pixel now
-- record which pixel has changed (offset within the imageData)
put 1 into bytesChanged[currPixel+1]
-- move to the next pixel; assume that changed pixels are near 
each other
add 4 to currPixel
 end if
  end repeat
  -- we found one or more unchanged pixels; skip this section of data
  add rangeToCheck to currPixel
  -- and update the range to encompass the remainder of the image
  put dataLength - currPixel into rangeToCheck
   end repeat

My routine will be optimal the fewer changes there are in the image, and the 
less distributed (more localized) those changes are. It took about 680 ms on 
my 2.66 GHz Core i7 Vista system, so I took the progress bar out. :) Can 
anyone improve on it?

"BNig"  wrote in message 
news:24255723.p...@talk.nabble.com...
>
> I like the ideas to speed up the analysis of differences among 2 images. 
> My
> impression is that your approach with div 2 is leading to erroneous 
> resutls
> because by dividing by 2 you break the 4 byte blocks of imagedata. 150 div 
> 2
> = 75, 75 div 2 = 37, 37 div 2 = 18. You get the idea. You eventually 
> compare
> blocks of 4 that belong to 2 pixels. That can be alright but not in all 
> [...] 



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Re: [ANN] Game update

[Bill Marriott]

John,

For anyone interested in wasting some time, I've updated the 'Air 
Traffic Control' game stack on Rev Online.  The animation is a bit 
smoother in the new version.


Excellent work ... and a very addictive game!

- Bill
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Re: runrev 4.0 - kudos and a gripe

[Bill Marriott]

Hi David,


I'd prefer not to find out that the Rev Web Plugin
lack certain core features a few weeks before release, and I'd like to 
think

that by suggesting and discussing them with the community this input would
help RunRev ensure the new products are as good as they could be given the
resources invested.


What is *not* going to be in the first version of the plug-in (e.g.: talking 
with JavaScript) is something that has only recently been decided, as we 
approach the betas and release. This is typical of the software development 
cycle; you cut features you don't think will make it as the ship date nears.


I have to say that I find runrev quite open to input from members of the 
community. After all, my association with them began as a poster to the 
use-rev list. Most all of the development priorities over the last two years 
(beginning with Rev 2.8.1 and the free Rev 2.9 release) have been driven by 
communication with users -- either through reading the forums and lists, 
direct emails, multiple surveys, the Quality Control Center, online events, 
or conferences like last year's RunRevLive.08. (That's why having 
RunRevLive.09 in Edinburgh, where you can speak face-to-face with the entire 
engineering and management team, is such an advantage, and why we've put the 
effort into the Web Simulcast of this year's dev conference.)


The company has grown a lot in this respect and I would suggest it's now 
superior in this regard compared to many other software publishers. It's not 
that we don't know what our users want, or it didn't occur to us that 
communication with JavaScript (or richer text fields) was a desireable 
capability. It's that we have a long list of things we want to do and have 
to choose carefully what comes first. Based on the overwhelmingly 
enthusiastic response to the plugin, I think we've demonstrated it will be 
quite exciting and usable and worthwhile even without this capability in the 
first release.


- Bill 



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Re: runrev 4.0 - kudos and a gripe

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Sean,

A few thoughts on your comments:

1) Drop shadows, etc., may not seem like much, but in an era where you have 
both Mac OS X and Vista/7 putting them around windows, etc., it's awfully 
nice -- more than nifty -- to be able to put glows around things 
programmatically because you can create a sense of depth and professionalism 
consistent with the OS. It will now be super-easy to have shadow and glows 
to enhance the user experience, for example with mouseovers, button hilites, 
and "picking up" objects that you are manipulating. And it's also useful for 
the revWeb plug-in content people will be creating, since the visual appeal 
is so important. It's a great workflow enhancement, too, because it obviates 
the need to create these effects in a separate drawing program.


2) These features are not added at the "expense" of a new field that has 
enhanced text formatting. I'm not going to say they were "easy" to add, but 
they are considerably more straightforward than reworking the field object. 
The field object, as you can imagine, is wired into everything. Adding 
something like "set the dropShadow of graphic 1 to true" is one thing; 
adding tab stop alignment is something altogether different, because there 
are lots of implications for the engine, the IDE, the language syntax, 
existing stacks, etc. We do have a plan for enhanced text formatting in 
fields and have been working toward that under the hood for a while now. It 
will come in time, and we want to do it right.


2.5) The data grid is not not a replacement for this feature, but it in the 
meantime it significantly enhances the data presentation abilities of Rev 
because it addresses many of the limitations that prevented people from 
using Rev for data-intensive solutions.


3) Critically important to the long-term success of Rev is having more 
people speak the language. Getting our Web story together in the cohesive 
way it's taking shape will enable us to do this. Although we may not be 
enabling people to recreate Word, we are empowering potentially millions of 
people to rediscover Web authoring and "get things done" because we offer a 
single language that can be used for the desktop, the server, and Web 
multimedia/tools across Mac, Windows, and Linux.


No one else does that. No one.

It is a unified and comprehensive platform that will allow Rev developers to 
create not just casual Web content (such as animations, simulations and 
games) but innovative new products, n-tier client/server apps, and hosted 
solutions, not to mention dramatically expanding their market and easing 
distribution. Adobe AIR and Microsoft Silverlight are struggling to get 
their Web-to-desktop story right; we already have that, and it's 
considerably easier and more accessible that their offerings.


4) The revServer technology will be available for installation on one's own 
hardware/hosting in the future. There will be a free version and a paid 
version. We are still working things out on that front, so I cannot be more 
specific. In the meantime, we have a very affordable option for the public 
to take advantage of these capabilities today, with their own domains, etc. 
And it's quite functional despite its "pre-release" status. Unlike other 
server technologies at this price range we have a very nice integrated 
authoring environment with a code editor, script manager, debugger, and 
variable watcher. It's leaps and bounds ahead of where we used to be with 
the old CGI engine, and I've seen some projects people have done that have 
just knocked my socks off. I might mention that the performance is 
absolutely phenomenal compared with PHP and alternatives. If on-Rev and 
revServer don't give you goose bumps, I don't know what will.


5) The visual effects are not the only new features in Rev 4.0. We didn't 
have time to get to this in the Webinar, but there will be a new externals 
interface which is very exciting because it will allow for exchange of 
binary data and arrays, as well as passing pointers so data doesn't have to 
be copied and externals operate much more quickly and efficiently. This 
opens up amazing new possibilities, including the potential for a 
third-party solution to your concerns. There is an in-depth session on this 
with our chief technology officer at the RunRevLive.09 conference.


In short, Rev 4.0 (along with revServer) will be our most significant 
release ever. It comes as giant leap after two years of steady, step-by-step 
advances. I personally see it as the most exciting news since the 
availability of MetaCard as a cross-platform solution for xTalk. This is not 
to say a new field is unimportant, but hopefully this post explains that 
this is about much more than just a pretty new logo.


- Bill


"Shao Sean"  wrote in 
message news:0421bb33-d464-4cc3-872b-55c577ce8...@wehostmacs.com...

kudos
- web plugin
- server-side scripting (and maybe some day it will be released to  the 
public)

- photoshop-like effec

Re: Inefficient code - Solutions

[Bill Marriott]

I also forgot one other critical speed factor: the imagedata uses *four* 
bytes per pixel in the image, and the first byte is always the same. So 
checking every byte requires four times as many tests as required, compared 
to checking four bytes at a time. [Weirdly, my first byte always shows as 
255, not 0, as stated in the docs and as working for others.]


I spent a little bit of time putting together a stack with different kinds 
of images and a script which reflects some of the concepts I discussed. (By 
no means is it a formal "O(ND)" difference algorithm!) It's actually not 
truly recursive. On my Core i7 920 system, it takes 10 milliseconds (versus 
289) to process a 200x300 image with minimal delta from source; 842 
milliseconds (versus 7312) for a 1600x1200 resolution screenshot comparison. 
The stack (with various image types) can be found here:


http://bill.on-rev.com/linked/Compare.rev

Here is the core of the script:

-- where L is the length of the imagedata,
-- r is initially set to L, n & c are initialized to 0
  repeat while c < L
 repeat while char c+1 to c+r of a <> char c+1 to c+r of b
add 1 to n; if n mod 1000 = 0 then set the thumbPosition of 
scrollbar "Progress" to c

if r >= 8 then
   put r div 2 into r
else
   put 1 into hAll[c div 4 * 4+1] -- report delta
   add 4 to c
end if
 end repeat
 add r to c
 put L - c into r
  end repeat

I suspect there is a subtle math error in here as it generates a slightly 
different number of changed pixels compared to the byte-by-byte method, but 
it does reflect the "divide and conquer" approach, and testing four bytes at 
the minimum, as opposed to one at a time. Also, I realized that in the edge 
condition of an image being 100% different from the source, the original 
method can't be beat. But in the case of screen shots where you might have 
only a tiny portion of the screen changing, there is much room for 
improvement over the original approach.


This is a very interesting challenge and I hope others pick it up and 
further refine the algorithm.


- Bill

p.s.: Richmond:  Thanks for your stack/images. Remember, you can just 
replace spaces with %20 in urls to get them to behave :)

http://mathewson.110mb.com/FILEZ/IMAGE%20COMPARE.rev.zip




"Bill Marriott"  wrote in message 
news:h23uk6$as...@ger.gmane.org...

Bert,

Others have pointed out the delay introduced by updating a progress bar 
with every pixel and suggested updating it every 100 or 500 pixels or so. 
Similarly, comparing byte-by-byte is going to be slow.


An immediate, simple improvement will be achieved by comparing *groups* of 
pixels between the two images. For example, if your image is 10,000 bytes 
in size, comparing 500 bytes at a time results in 20 comparisons instead 
of 10,000 comparisons. As you find differences in a block of 500 bytes, 
you can then down-shift to find the differences within that 500-byte block 
with more granularity.


A refinement on this approach is simply to "divide and conquer" by 
constantly dividing the image by half and recursively testing the halves 
for differences. If the differences between the two images are small, the 
comparison can be near-instant.


One of the classic papers on checking for differences between data sets 
can be found here:


http://xmailserver.org/diff2.pdf

Of course, the language in that paper is way beyond my comprehension ;)

I'll putter around with expressing these concepts elegantly in Rev, but 
hopefully this gives you or someone else on the list a starting point for 
an algorithm that is dramatically faster than byte-for-byte testing. (I'd 
love to see the "O(ND)" difference algorithm properly implemented in Rev 
code.)


- Bill 



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Re: Inefficient code

[Bill Marriott]

Bert,

Others have pointed out the delay introduced by updating a progress bar with 
every pixel and suggested updating it every 100 or 500 pixels or so. 
Similarly, comparing byte-by-byte is going to be slow.

An immediate, simple improvement will be achieved by comparing *groups* of 
pixels between the two images. For example, if your image is 10,000 bytes in 
size, comparing 500 bytes at a time results in 20 comparisons instead of 
10,000 comparisons. As you find differences in a block of 500 bytes, you can 
then down-shift to find the differences within that 500-byte block with more 
granularity.

A refinement on this approach is simply to "divide and conquer" by 
constantly dividing the image by half and recursively testing the halves for 
differences. If the differences between the two images are small, the 
comparison can be near-instant.

One of the classic papers on checking for differences between data sets can 
be found here:

http://xmailserver.org/diff2.pdf

Of course, the language in that paper is way beyond my comprehension ;)

I'll putter around with expressing these concepts elegantly in Rev, but 
hopefully this gives you or someone else on the list a starting point for an 
algorithm that is dramatically faster than byte-for-byte testing. (I'd love 
to see the "O(ND)" difference algorithm properly implemented in Rev code.)

- Bill



"Bert Shuler"  wrote in 
message news:c226bc83-61ac-4267-a24c-e32c8c7ce...@yahoo.com...
>I have written this code a few different ways. Each seems to be  equally 
>inefficient. I am attempting to compare to images, pixel by  pixel, and 
>record the differences.
>
> ON mouseUp pMouseBtnNo
> put 0 into c
> set the startvalue of scrollbar Progress to 0
> set the endvalue of scrollbar Progress to the length of imagedata  of 
> image "Alpha"
> put the imagedata of image "Alpha" into idataalpha
> put the imagedata of image "Beta" into idatabeta
> REPEAT FOR each char myChar in idataalpha
> set the thumbposition of scrollbar Progress to c
> IF myChar is not  char (c) of idatabeta THEN
> put c && char (c) of idatabeta & return after hAll
> END IF
> put c+1 into c
> END repeat
> put hAll into field "diff"
> END mouseUp
>
> It takes many minutes to process a 200x200 image. I want this code to 
> eventually compare full screen-captures, so if there is any way to  speed 
> it up, I am open for advice.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bert
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Re: Rev 4 Preview Webinar - Video Link

[Bill Marriott]

Michael,

> Wow. This took several minutes:
>
> 

Yes, we know how to convert to mp4, that isn't the problem. Your version of 
the video is not acceptable:

- It's more than 3x the file size: 151 Mb; the original WMV is 46 Mb
- It's half the dimensions of the original, the text of scripts is 
unreadable. We simply cannot demonstrate a programming product without the 
code being crisp and clear.
- It does not "stream" -- must be downloaded completely before viewing, 
which makes the file size even more of an issue
- It's in mp4, which simply transfers the burden of installing software from 
Mac to Windows users

For all its flaws, WMV has a built-in codec suitable for screen captures (in 
which most of the pixels from moment-to-moment are unchanged) as opposed to 
H.264, which is optimized for video. While you balk at the format for 
political reasons, Flip4Mac a free and quick download for end users, and 
WMA/WMV is common enough that many people have it already. It's not like 
we're forcing anyone to convert their library of videos or author using WMV. 
The videos even play back using the QuickTime Player, or within the browser 
window itself.

GoToWebinar has its issues, but it's the best value for web conferences 
we've found for our needs. Webex, for example, accommodates only 25 users 
per meeting without special arrangement. Our Rev 4.0 webinar had almost 350 
attendees. And the video is created automatically at the conclusion of the 
event, which means we have to spend a whole five minutes of post-production 
(to trim the start and end) and we're done. That enables us to upload the 
result quicker, and leaves me more time to participate in the use-list. :)

- Bill 



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Re: my sqlite code is slow :(

[Bill Marriott]

Does SQLite support multi-line SQL statements via revExecuteSQL? You might 
try assembling the whole operation in a variable,
BEGIN
INSERT
INSERT
INSERT
...
COMMIT

and see how that flies 



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Re: Rev 4 Preview Webinar - Video Link

[Bill Marriott]

In the initial version 4.0 you can expect very little change from the 
version 3.5 video management capabilities.

"Alex Shaw"  wrote in message 
news:4a434746.5060...@harryscollar.com...
> Hi Bill
>
> The one question I asked during the webinar..
>
> Since rev is currently heavily dependant on quicktime for video and audio 
> capture.. I assume it will still be a requirement for video playback and 
> audio capture via the web plugin?
>
> regards
> alex
>
> Bill Marriott wrote:
>> While we have used Flash for things like the on-Rev videos, I'd find it a 
>> bit weird to use Flash to host a preview of our new plugin tech. (Which 
>> obviously we can't use for the videos since it's not released yet.)
>>
>>> Flash can play mp4 video, cross platform, progressive download, and 
>>> nearly everyone has it installed. It would require setting up a tiny 
>>> player swf, but that's not too hard. The hard part is transcoding the 
>>> wmv in good enough quality.



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Re: Rev 4 Preview Webinar - Video Link

[Bill Marriott]

While we have used Flash for things like the on-Rev videos, I'd find it a 
bit weird to use Flash to host a preview of our new plugin tech. (Which 
obviously we can't use for the videos since it's not released yet.)

> Flash can play mp4 video, cross platform, progressive download, and 
> nearly everyone has it installed. It would require setting up a tiny 
> player swf, but that's not too hard. The hard part is transcoding the  wmv 
> in good enough quality.



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Re: Wonky revTools on Linux

[Bill Marriott]

We use the Windows version of Xara Xtreme for probably half of our marketing 
production. It's a lot of fun, an easy UI, and quite a bit faster than 
Inkscape on Linux. It has capabilities that rival or exceed Illustrator (and 
is also an order of magnitude faster). And the full commercial version for 
Windows is just $89. I use it for a lot of my UI work and highly recommend 
it.


"Richmond Mathewson" 
 wrote in message 
news:4a426a49.4060...@gmail.com...
> Thank you for the recommendation;
>
> I do have Xara Xtreme installed on my P4 and when I manage
> to find the time I intend to get to grips with it.
>
> For quite a few years I relied on demo software and the merry
> 'application dance' between many little free programs; but
> with Open Source really coming into its own now I am now
> "revolving' (err, sorry, I meant to write 'revOlving') round
> Audacity and GIMP.
>
> The reason I am "inyo" graphics software is two-fold:
>
> 1. I author stuff for 5 -13 year old children, which, to hold their
>attention needs to be visually rich.
>
> 2. As I started programming on Hollerith cards and blind terminals
>the GUI is just too good to waste!
>
> Bill Marriott wrote:
>> Richmond,
>>
>> I see from your site that you're into graphics software, especially free 
>> graphics software, and stuff for Linux. You should look into Xara Xtreme 
>> for Linux: http://www.xaraxtreme.org/
>>
>>
>> "Richmond Mathewson" 
>>  wrote in 
>> message news:4a420975.8000...@gmail.com...
>>
>>> A bit odd, see:
>>>
>>> http://mathewson.110mb.com/rrprobs.html
>>>
>>> and, err, yes, my website has mived again:
>>>
>>> http://mathewson.110mb.com/default.html



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Re: [On-Rev] Photo Gallery problem

[Bill Marriott]

Richard,

It's our intention to have the ability to export rendered card images and 
also have an interface to ImageMagick down the road, but it's not in the 
current (pre-release) version of revServer. (revServer will also have the 
ability to use stack files, not just .irev files, for scripts and 
libraries.)

- Bill

> Are these thumbnails pre-generated, or are you making them on the fly from 
> the Rev server engine?
>
> That is, does iRev have the same "no-GUI" limitation as the CGI engine, or 
> can we do things like export rendered card images to image files?



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Re: Rev 4 Preview Webinar - Video Link

[Bill Marriott]

Michael,

> Really?

Really.

> I think you should forego foisting MS POS formats on everyone and
> use mp4 for distribution instead. I can explain how if necessary.

Be my guest. We've already spent dozens of hours trying to work around this.

The GoToWebinar software we use for our webinars records *only* in WMV --  
our choices are WMV that uses a special GoToWebinar codec that works only on 
Windows, and requires installation of the GoToWebinar software; or a 
cross-platform, portable WMV. Every option we have tried to transcode such 
files has resulted in, at the minimum, a file size of twice as large, and a 
loss in quality (such as what you would get converting a WMA file to MP3). 
For example, we had to recode an earlier webinar because of a glitch and the 
file size went from 50MB to 140MB after our best efforts.

Some people have suggested we use a second computer to capture the video 
using different screen recording software, but this is also sub-optimal as 
a) the second computer is capturing compressed audio/video as a "guest" of 
the conference, not capturing the source screens; b) the GoToWebinar 
software captures the screens at a consistent resolution, without needing to 
worry about resetting the capture rect as we change presenters and other 
details; c) the other programs often require installation of a special 
codec, themselves.

Note also that you said you prefer mp4, as if this were a universal format. 
But most Windows users cannot view that format, without having QuickTime or 
other additional software installed, and we wouldn't want to "foist" 
anything on them. Plus WMV is a "progressive download" that starts to play 
fairly quickly, as opposed to requiring the whole file to be downloaded.

So, if you've got an idea that doesn't have these downsides, let me know.

- Bill 



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Re: challenge to Kevin and Bill

[Bill Marriott]

Colin,

You asked, "Is the logo final? It's mildly troubling that the two Rs are 
different to each other. Also, is the U an exact vertical flip of the N, and 
a horizontal flip of the V?  That would be neat."

Yes it's final. The R's actually look better this way than if they were 
identically shaped.

The other questions will make their way into an FAQ shortly :)



"Colin Holgate"  wrote in message 
news:911f32a1-5a2e-47e3-9614-f704d2506...@rcn.com...
> There were so many questions in the webinar that Bill only managed to 
> cover a small percentage of them. Would it be possible to take the  time 
> to go through the other questions, and answer those too? My three 
> questions happened to be amongst the ones that were past over, and 
> there's no hurry to hear the answers, but the one about the logo is  more 
> time critical.
>
>
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Re: Wonky revTools on Linux

[Bill Marriott]

Richmond,

I see from your site that you're into graphics software, especially free 
graphics software, and stuff for Linux. You should look into Xara Xtreme for 
Linux: http://www.xaraxtreme.org/


"Richmond Mathewson" 
 wrote in message 
news:4a420975.8000...@gmail.com...
>A bit odd, see:
>
> http://mathewson.110mb.com/rrprobs.html
>
> and, err, yes, my website has mived again:
>
> http://mathewson.110mb.com/default.html



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Rev 4 Preview Webinar - Video Link

[Bill Marriott]

Hi folks,

There will be a more official mail going out on this direct to your inbox 
shortly, but I wanted to give you the link to the video from today's Webinar 
conference:


http://www.runrev.com/offers/webinar-2009-06-23/Rev4-Preview-Webinar.wmv

We don't have a lot of choices when it comes to video format, but it should 
play fine on your Mac if you get the latest version of Flip4Mac.


Enjoy!

- Bill 



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Re: Salivating . . .

[Bill Marriott]

The birds were outside *my* window :)


And, for an 'exiled' Scot, the best bit of the Webinar was the sound
of birds tweeting outside RunRev's offices in Edinburgh!



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Re: To On-Rev or Not to On-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Gregory,

Please note: The ability to embed  scripting tags within HTML is 
a feature of our server technology, not the desktop application. While we 
will most likely have a free version of the server technology down the road, 
it will not work like it does now, where you just pop the Revolution engine 
out of the Linux desktop version and put it online.

- Bill

> I'm considering taking the On-Rev plunge.  My main use of it would be  to 
> collect data from online experiments that use interactive web pages 
> deployed by Revolution.  I have the luxury of a static IP at my 
> university, so I currently use my Mac as a server, and given that the  web 
> page functionality of Rev HTML tags will apparently be included in  future 
> versions of Revolution, I wonder whether a switch to On-Rev is  worth it. 
> What do you think?



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Re: Windows 7 - any experiences?

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Tiemo,

> so that RC1 is available for download since some time I would be 
> interested,
> if anybody already has tested Rev 3.0/3.5 on Windows 7 and would be 
> willing
> to share his/her experiences?
>
> I hadn't the chance yet for a test but I am curious, if and what we have 
> to
> adapt or is it just running smooth without notice?

I recently built an Intel Core i7 machine with 6GB of RAM, so I've been 
trying to decide on a 64-bit operating system.

I liked Windows 7 a lot. Much snappier than Windows Vista. Lots of updated 
drivers. A smarter UAC. I would probably use it except for two problems: 1) 
I prefer the Vista/XP task bar. And 2) there is no upgrade path from RC1 to 
the shipping version of Windows 7; you will have to do a clean install when 
it ships.

I noticed no difference in Rev behvior between Vista and Windows 7.

- Bill 



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Re: What do Rev programmers charge per hour for programming?

[Bill Marriott]

Charles,

> What do Rev programmers charge per hour for programming?

In addition to my plug for RunRev Platinum support, I wanted to address your 
question from a different angle. The issue of "what to charge" comes up 
frequently with any programming task. I've heard lots of rules of thumb, 
such as "charge what you think you want to make annually divided by 1,000." 
The answer might vary depending on whether you're seeking to purchase 
programming time, or sell it.

For my personal consulting, I almost never charge hourly for development, 
whether it is for marketing materials or database work or Revolution code. 
Instead I issue a quote on a project basis. The reason for this is that 
development is not a linear, on/off process for me. I do obtain detailed 
requirements, size up a project in my head, and then estimate how much time 
it will take for me to accomplish the task. If it takes longer, then that's 
on me; if it takes shorter, then I can be proud of my efficiency. The rate 
also depends on what I think the client can afford, how difficult they will 
be to work with, and the prospects for a long-term arrangement.

I do charge hourly for training and other activities where I'll be, for 
example, on the phone or in a room with people. A lot of people I work with 
on FileMaker, for example, don't just want a template they can use; they 
want to understand how it works. They couldn't build it in the first place, 
because they don't understand table occurrences and relationships, so it 
actually takes a lot more time to "explain" than to "do." Works out well for 
me, since the phone calls take longer than the coding. Then again, some of 
the most difficult clients are those who know "enough to be dangerous" and 
want to do it their own way, even if it doesn't work very well. If someone's 
going to ask me to integrate something into their existing work, I usually 
charge more than if I am doing it (the "right" way) from scratch.

The RunRev rate of $129/hr is quite standard for skilled, experienced 
developers. But as you are beginning to see, the rate isn't the most 
important element. Developer A might charge $129/hr, and estimate 20 hours. 
Developer B might charge $75/hr, but it will take them 40 hours. So the 
higher rate is actually cheaper. Then there's the question of quality. One 
rule of thumb you've probably heard before: "Good, fast, cheap. Pick two."

Having said that, you can probably find the best rates if you go to a site 
like Guru.com. Just write up your spec and see what bids come in; there's 
quite a bit of competition for projects. You'll get a good idea of their 
competency by reading their responses carefully. In the past, people have 
also made requests directly on the use-list for help with projects.

Good luck,

- Bill 



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Re: What do Rev programmers charge per hour for programming?

[Bill Marriott]

Charles,

> What do Rev programmers charge per hour for programming?

You can obtain "Platinum" support direct from RunRev at the rate of $129 per 
hour:

http://www.runrev.com/support/contact-support/platinum-support/

"Platinum support offers you an option for more in-depth assistance from the 
best and brightest members of our team. If you need some extra horsepower on 
your project, or if you must have a specific feature, you can describe what 
you'd like and we'll respond with a quotation for your Platinum support 
inquiry. We hope this provides an avenue for our most demanding customers to 
get what they need most from the product.

"To request a quote for a Platinum support project, please email 
support{at}runrev.com with details of your project and we will get back to 
you quickly. Cost per project hour for Platinum support is $129, minimum 
quote time is one hour."

- Bill 



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Re: Datagrid can't not find background

[Bill Marriott]

1) Open up the original stack containing the data grid template
2) Use the application browser to open up the templates substack
3) Use the property inspector to set the mainstack of it to your stack.

"Josep"  wrote in message 
news:23824276.p...@talk.nabble.com...
>
> Hi List,
>
> I'm trying to get the entire set of data of the datagrid with:
>
> put the dgData of group "dg_productos" into tData
>
> But only get the error "can't find background".
> This is a copy/paste stack and I remember that when I load it some message
> about the templates datagrid was show. Now I see that "Data grid Templates
> xx" not exist inside of the stack.
>
> Can be the problem for this?
> How replace de datagrid templates?
>
>
> Salut,
> Josep
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Datagrid-can%27t-not-find-background-tp23824276p23824276.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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RunRevLive.09 (was: Re: on-Rev and use-Rev)

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Richmond,

> If the answer is YES, should I burn 5 or 50   Ideas???

CDs are "so 2006!"

... How about making a nice web site with your stuff instead? Saving natural 
resources, lighter baggage and all that. If you want a physical memento for 
people, you could print up a couple pages of "business cards" with the URL 
and hand those out?

But if you're really into CDs I would target more to the 50 end of the 
continuum, as we've got well more than that many registrations already. 
RunRevLive.09 is shaping up to be our biggest and best-attended event 
ever definitely not to be missed!

This particular conference is SO important, because we're really giving 
in-depth coverage of the new Web technologies (server and plugin), the new 
Behaviors, and other goodies. Plus you'll get to network with more members 
of the community than ever.

http://www.runrevlive.com

p.s.: I know you're coming, Richmond... but for the rest of the crew, the 
huge, 40% early bird registration discount is going away at the end of 
tomorrow. So if you're on the fence about coming, I hope you'll sign up 
before the price goes up on June 1. We'd really like to meet you! 



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Re: on-Rev and use-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Mark,

Well consider it acknowledged and expectations set. It's solidly in the 
"nice to have" category, behind "must have."

- Bill

Mark Wieder writes,

> But "some time in the future" is an interesting phrase, considering
> that this same request has been made for the runrev forum since its
> inception some three years ago and it's never been acted on. Or even
> acknowledged, to my recollection. 



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Re: [On-Rev] Webdisk not reliable; irev as a table constructor

[Bill Marriott]

Hello Dom,

I find the web disk functionality (WebDAV) -- *regardless* of hosting 
provider or control panel technology -- is really only useful for uploading 
a single file or quickly previewing images, etc. I've never liked it for 
bulk uploads/downloads as I find the performance and reliability to be 
wanting. Maybe it works better on Windows-based servers? I really don't 
know. But for transferring sites, I stick with a solid FTP client like 
FileZilla.

Bill


"Dom"  wrote in message 
news:1j0jdhz.9jqxc8h79wzim%mcd...@free.fr...
I tempted to make some modifications to my "medard" On-Rev web site with
the Web Disk ... to transfer a "sub-site" to another directory, i.e. to
put "pensées", which contain shots of pansies, to the "photos" directory

The result was very strange: the folder are transferred -- but emptied,
and prefixed par "pensees", and the original leaved in their places, but
likewise emptied.



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Re: On-Rev / Off-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Richmond,

> The reason I asked the question that I did was because of what you wrote
> re the language and the IDE:
>
> "we consider our product to be the language, not merely the desktop IDE"
>
> as if the language and the IDE were, in some way, capable of independent
> existences.

Well, they are. The old CGI engine didn't have any IDE or GUI whatsoever and 
was certainly "Revolution."

Thought experiment:

Which would be more Rev-ish?

- The Revolution IDE and the syntax was, for example, Java? or,
- The Revolution syntax and the IDE was, for example, Visual Studio?

The answer is pretty simple for me. At least, I know which product I would 
buy. (Thankfully we have BOTH the Revolution IDE and the Revolution syntax!)

Note that we have seen multiple IDE variants historically including 
MetaCard, the open-source one some people like to use, Revolution itself, 
and even Jerry's GLX lineup. I would consider all of them to be part of the 
Rev experience. Broadening to "xTalk," we've seen dozens of products with 
different approaches to the IDE: SuperCard, Director, TileStack. It always 
comes back to the language. That is what people love and are committed to.

> The word 'merely' also made me wonder if the IDE was rather far down a 
> list
> of priorities as far as Runtime Revolution's future development went. 
> Although the advent of dataGrids would seem to bely that.

No, the IDE is not de-emphasized whatsoever. You're reading too much into 
semantics, and are forgetting Revolution 3.0 introduced a completely 
revamped Script Editor, gradient editor, etc. Going forward you'll see even 
more enhancements and customization abilities. We've been making fantastic 
strides on both fronts, and there is a mutual dependence, one on the other. 
Unquestionably a great language needs a great IDE.

> as far as I can tell, RunRev's ancestor,
> HyperCard seemed to be built around the idea of some sort of organic
> co-existence between the language and an IDE; unlike most programming
> languages available at that time where there was no IDE at all.

I *personally* don't agree with that. HyperCard was written in the days when 
Apple liked to imagine itself a walled garden where the hardware, operating 
system, and applications were all separate from the rest of the world, like 
some kind of priestly caste "above it all." AppleTalk, ADB, non-standard 
monitor connections, etc. Those days are gone. Today we're in a much more 
inter-connected, inter-dependent, and standards-based world. A core benefit 
of Rev is its cross-platform capabilities. Today that is Mac/Windows/Linux 
desktops. And we're moving toward Web servers (on-Rev and our server 
technology) and Web multimedia (the plugin). The IDE will always evolve; it 
is the language which remains the constant, from the day HyperTalk was born. 
And RunRev is the unchallenged steward of that legacy today.

Of course we'll always have a "model" for constructing UI that is integrated 
into the language; I don't think that can be separated. But as we're seeing 
now, the language needs to evolve to handle manipulation of elements 
regardless of the presentation. (i.e., Web forms versus fields as we know 
them.)

> what is not clear to me is whether the language can exist outwith an IDE
[...]
> I feel that the language uncoupled from the IDE
> would lose more than half what makes it such a fantastic RAD.

Rev's easy-to-use IDE will always be a key element of the product. I am sure 
that for some people it's a different percentage of the appeal than others. 
You consider it more than 50% of the value, I consider the language to be 
the majority. But it's a little like debating whether the dashboard or the 
engine is the more critical part of the car. Some people will always be 
concerned about horsepower and performance; others will focus on comfort. 
Luckily we enjoy the best of all worlds: an accessible, natural-language 
syntax that performs admirably and is very easy to use.

Can a language "exist" without an IDE? Going back to my CGI point at the 
beginning, the answer is an obvious "yes." But it's certainly very nice to 
have one, and that is why we have invested in building the on-Rev client for 
our server technology, and why it has been so well-received.

- Bill 



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Re: On-Rev / Off-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Richmond,

> What I am very interested to know is when the language "took flight" and
> became completely independent of the desktop IDE . . . .

I don't recall there ever being a concern about discussing CGI scripts here. 
And you've got it backwards. Server scripting didn't become independent of 
the IDE. The IDE came to server scripting.

Bill 



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Re: on-Rev updates.

[Bill Marriott]

Alex,

> Any chance of an update soon ?
> Or of a schedule for when there might be one ?

There has actually been one update to the on-Rev client since launch, which 
added the ability to edit txt, html, and other non-irev text files. There is 
another one around the corner, features TBA.

We only just launched the service last month!

- Bill 



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Re: on-Rev and use-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Mark,

> This is another of those threads that pop up every few months or so.
> While I certainly agree and add my "me too" to the list, I seriously
> doubt that anyone in the mothership cares. Or pays any attention to
> these threads at all.

I too would prefer to receive all forum posts in email, or more ideally a 
gateway for newsgroup readers. It's something we have discussed and put on 
our "to do" list for some time in the future. Unfortunately, our human 
bandwidth right now is dedicated to the upcoming RunRevLive developer 
conference and launch of Rev 4 on Sept 1.

Please do not assume that the "mothership" does not notice or care -- we use 
these services as much as you do.

- Bill 



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Re: on-Rev and use-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Hi George,

> I tried to register at forum.on-rev.com (I'm already registered at 
> forum.rev.com) and got the message that my email address was already  in 
> use.  I do have other addresses, but would prefer to use the same  email 
> for both fora.  Is there a workaround?

The forums at on-rev.com and runrev.com are completely separate "name 
spaces" at this time. Registering for one does not register you for the 
other. Please use the "Forgot Password" link at on-rev.com to retrieve your 
info, or write support{at}on-rev.com if that doesn't work. 



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on-Rev and use-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Hi folks,

We have a forum set up for users of on-Rev at forums.on-rev.com -- this is 
the ideal spot for the latest news/announcements, discussing on-Rev, 
technical issues with it, usage concerns, etc.

For example, information about accessing sites placed at the root level of 
your hierarchy (that I just reposted here) was originally posted to the 
on-Rev forums on Apr 24.

However, we have no problem with folks discussing on-Rev here. The use-rev 
list is very simply for "using Revolution." And we consider our product to 
be the language, not merely the desktop IDE. The on-Rev service is obviously 
a Revolution-based product. Just because it's a subscription service doesn't 
matter; people obviously discuss Enteprise-specific issues, even though not 
everyone owns Enterprise. So consider discussions about on-Rev officially 
on-topic.

Thanks,

Bill Marriott
runrev marketing guy 



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Re: [OT] Opinions about On-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Alex,

Actually, you can.

If you get the latest on-Rev client, you'll notice a drop-down menu in the 
upper-right, "on-Rev Project."

This menu lists the sites you can edit. This list is drawn from the 
/.ireviam/sites.txt file on the server. Just edit this file and you'll be 
able to access the folders you need.

For example:

-
user.on-rev.com{tab}/home/user/public_html
mydomain.com{tab}/home/user/mydomain
anotherdomain.com{tab}/home/user/anotherdomain
-

In a future version of the on-Rev client, the information will either be 
pulled down automatically from the server or you'll be able to configure it 
in the client.

- Bill


"Alex Tweedly"  wrote in 
message news:4a1c6fbe.1060...@tweedly.net...
> Bill Marriott wrote:
>> Jacque,
>>
>>
>>> This was the default location where JaguarPC put them, and I assume is 
>>> how it needs to be set up.
>>>
>>
>> It's the default location but it does *not* need to be that way 
>> whatsoever and both will work just fine.
>>
>> In fact, there is an issue where putting it within the public_html folder 
>> will enable anyone to browse to
>>
>> http://user.on-rev.com/mydomain.com/
>>
>> or indeed, http://domain1.com/domain2.com
>>
>> and see the other, unrelated site, which I do not find desirable. This is 
>> why I put separate domains at the root. It prevents anyone from seeing 
>> the content unless they navigate to the intended domain.
>>
>>
> That sounds (to me) like a compelling reason to do it that way - and I 
> just succeeded (with a brand new domain name bought just so I can play 
> around without risking existing users).
>
> You may not care, but afaict the current on-rev client is unable to access 
> such root-based add-on domains - it only sees public_html and sub-folders 
> within that.  A great pity, I've already found the client's ability to 
> help with debugging of irev scripts to be tremenduously helpful 
>
> -- Alex.
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Re: [OT] Opinions about On-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Jacque,

> This was the default location where JaguarPC put them, and I assume is how 
> it needs to be set up.

It's the default location but it does *not* need to be that way whatsoever 
and both will work just fine.

In fact, there is an issue where putting it within the public_html folder 
will enable anyone to browse to

http://user.on-rev.com/mydomain.com/

or indeed, http://domain1.com/domain2.com

and see the other, unrelated site, which I do not find desirable. This is 
why I put separate domains at the root. It prevents anyone from seeing the 
content unless they navigate to the intended domain.

> Bill Marriott wrote:
>> If the content will ultimately be its own domain and not a subdomain, 
>> then I would put the folder at the root, and not within the /public_html 
>> hierarchy.
>
> I have both a subdomain and an add-on domain at JaguarPC, in addition to 
> my primary hyperactivesw.com domain. Both the subdomain and the add-on 
> folders are located inside the public_html folder of my hyperactivesw.com 
> folder. 



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Re: [OT] Opinions about On-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

If the content will ultimately be it's own domain and not a subdomain, then 
I would put the folder at the not, and not within the /public_html 
hierarchy.


"Sarah Reichelt"  
wrote in message 
news:f99b52860905221521h4f6e9bccgb64e113ad7315...@mail.gmail.com...
> But how do you "change a sub-domain to an AddOn domain" ?
>>
>> Suppose you want to eventually host mydomain.com with on-Rev:
>>
>> 1) Create a subdomain, mydomain.user.on-rev.com
>> 2) Point it to a folder, mydomain, in your account
>> 3) Test away
>> 4) When you're satisfied, point your nameservers for mydomain.com to 
>> on-Rev
>> 5) Create an add-on domain, mydomain.com
>> 5) Point it to the mydomain folder
>
>
> Thanks for this Bill. I just have one more question:
> I have troz.on-rev.com and when I FTP to the root folder, I see
> various folders: public_html, public_ftp, mail etc.
> My on-rev test web site files are all in the public_html folder.
> So if I want to transfer my troz.net domain, is it all contained in a
> sub-folder inside the public_html folder, or does it get a root folder
> of it's own?
>
> Maybe the best thing would be to swap around so that all the troz.net
> files where in public_html and I had a sub-domain, say
> tests.troz.on-rev.com, which was in a sub-folder.
>
> Cheers,
> Sarah
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Re: [OT] Opinions about On-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Alex,

>>> But how do you "change a sub-domain to an AddOn domain" ?

Suppose you want to eventually host mydomain.com with on-Rev:

1) Create a subdomain, mydomain.user.on-rev.com
2) Point it to a folder, mydomain, in your account
3) Test away
4) When you're satisfied, point your nameservers for mydomain.com to on-Rev
5) Create an add-on domain, mydomain.com
5) Point it to the mydomain folder 



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Re: setting fld with HTML: "Title" results in added empty lines

[Bill Marriott]

Mark,

The problem you're running into is that the "htmlText" is not truly HTML, 
and the  tag is not supported. If you inspect the contents of the 
htmlText after your script executes you'll see:

This is the title

The  tag is nowhere to be seen.

So what is happening is that the  tag is being transformed from a 
structural tag (identifying a heading and letting the browser/style sheet 
determine how it appears) into a formatting tag that Rev understands. Rev 
pretty much assumes than an  heading should look something like that.

This is handy when you're dropping the contents of a web page into a field; 
but when you're working scripting and using the htmlText to format things 
you'll want to strictly limit yourself to the supported tags so you do not 
have unexpected results like this.

This behavior and the supported tags are described in the dictionary entry 
for htmlText.

- Bill


"mfstuart"  wrote in message 
news:23659327.p...@talk.nabble.com...
>
> Hi all,
> (hopefully, the html tags I'm using in this message don't get lost in
> transit)
>
> Here goes:
> When I use the following script to populate a field, the first 2 lines
> before the "" text and the line after the "" text are empty.
> What's up with that?
>
> ##
> on mouseUp
>   put "This is the title" into tText
>   put "This is the second line" after tText
>   set the htmlText of fld 1 to tText
> end mouseUp
> ##
>
> To clean the field up after the above script, I use the following:
> delete line 1 to 2 of fld 1  --removes first 2 blank lines
> delete line 2 to 2 of fld 1  --removes blank line after "" text
>
> I've set the properties of the field to the following:
> textHeight = 17
> fixedLineHeight = unchecked (false)
> These help to better proportion the text height with using the "" 
> tags.
>
> Q: so why would RunRev put these blank lines in using the "set htmlText"
> command?
> It seems setting the field property is enough to set the style of the 
> field
> correctly.
>
> Q: anyone got a better idea how to handle using "" text, without blank
> lines?
>
> --
> Regards,
> Mark Stuart



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Re: [OT] Opinions about On-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Right, Marty. And let me point out one other aspect

When you get your on-Rev account, you'll have a default folder set up for 
your initial user.on-rev.com subdomain. When you create the "add-on" domain 
in the control panel, you'll be able to specify this folder, or a new 
folder, or any existing folder as the "root" of the domain you're 
specifying.

In this way you can keep domains separate, or you can link multiple domains 
to the same folder.

Suppose you have:

superdomain.com
superdomain.net
superdomain.info
superdomain.biz

These would be four "add-on" domains, four registrations with GoDaddy. But 
you can map them all to the "superdomain" folder on your on-rev account, so 
you put all your stuff in one place. Then you could have a domain,

mypersonalsite.org

which maps to the "mysite" folder on your on-Rev account (the folder names 
don't have to match anything in particular) and this would be a completely 
separate collection of content.

So, to address the OP's question, "How do you 'change a sub-domain to an 
AddOn domain?'" The answer is you really don't. The subdomain is like a 
phone number; that doesn't change. You can add as many prefixes (i guess 
they would be called, sub-subdomains) for example

x.y.z.user.on-rev.com

But you cannot change the user.on-rev.com part. You can specify that your 
"add-on" domain(s) point to the same folder that user.on-rev.com does (like 
a phone number that forwards to the same physical telephone as another 
number) -- the default folder we set up for you at account creation. Or, you 
can just keep your default folder empty and create new folders for your 
"add-on domains" as desired.

- Bill



"Marty Knapp"  wrote in 
message news:4a1485aa.1020...@comcast.net...
> Hey Alex,
>
> You'll need to register a domain name with a registrar - many people here 
> have recommended GoDaddy, which is what I use. Let's say you register 
> "alextweedly.com" Then you edit the Nameserver setting with the registrar 
> so that it points to On-Rev with the info that On-Rev provides, which is 
> probably:
>
> ns1.on-rev.com
> ns2.on-rev.com
>
> Then you can create an "Add-on" domain in your On-Rev control panel with 
> the name you registered. Place your web site files in this new directory. 
> Within a short while everything should sync up and requests for 
> "alextweedly.com" will bring visitors to your On-Rev hosted site. And with 
> On-Rev you can host unlimited sites.
>
> A "freebie" you get with On-Rev is a user space with your account name, 
> like "alextweedly.on-rev.com". You can host a site at this address without 
> further registration.
>
> HTH,
> Marty Knapp
>> Sarah Reichelt wrote:
>>> I have signed up as troz.on-rev.com.
>>> I own the domain troz.net and plan to re-locate it's hosting, but I
>>> wanted to test it out before changing the DNS entries.
>>> I created a sub-domain "troz.troz.on-rev.com" so I could migrate my
>>> site & test it, before changing it to an AddOn domain and altering the
>>> DNS.
>>>
>> Could you expand slightly on how you do this ?
>>
>> I (think I) unerstand most of it
>> - create a sub-domain
>> - copy files over
>> - test it
>>
>> But how do you "change a sub-domain to an AddOn domain" ?
>>
>> Thanks
>> -- Alex.



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Re: On-Rev Signup

[Bill Marriott]

Bob,

Most hosting services require you to bring a domain to the table and then 
set you up under that. For example, you have "mydomain.com" and your login 
becomes mydomaincom. The hosting service defaults to hosting that domain.

On-Rev asks you for a "Desired Username/Subdomain" which is explained (at 
the bottom) of the order page as follows:

"When ordering enter the single word subdomain (max 25 characters) that you 
would like for your subdomain name. This will resolve as 
[subdomain].on-rev.com and you will have email addresses of 
[na...@[subdomain].on-rev.com. This will be used as one of the basic ways we 
identify your account. Of course you'll be able to add additional domains 
once your account is set up."

In other words, if you select "bill" as your subdomain, you will 
automatically have

bill[at]bill.on-rev.com as an email, and
http://bill.on-rev.com as your web site

Without needing to purchase/register a true standalone domain.

Yes, you certainly CAN bring your own domains over, as many of them as you 
want, and host them with on-Rev. It's simply not required.

Static IP addresses are a completely separate issue from domain names, and 
can be purchased as an add-on for people who require them. Most people don't 
need them.


"Bob Sneidar" wrote in message 
news:aae2ca96-5b9d-4c8f-80e3-cc82e6cad...@twft.com...
>I am going to look like a dope asking, but does anyone know what the 
>On-Rev signup subdomain and domain fields are asking of me? Is on-rev 
>offering to set and host a brand new domain for me? If so, what is the  IP 
>range? I know I can't just pick a random one.



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Re: Combobox filled from database

[Bill Marriott]

Only on Mac. Windows shows a scrollbar for both So if you use the 
built-in controls you'll have to choose between the untidy screen 
presentation of a long list, or the potential for someone to enter arbitrary 
data into the box that is not part of the index.

Either way the two script lines I supplied will work.

You might consider building a custom control using parent scripts, which 
could solve both issues of the appearance and the indexing. (You could even 
implement keyboard support.)

"Josep"  wrote in message 
news:23481063.p...@talk.nabble.com...
>
> Yes, the syntax is the same, but how combo or option show the values when
> click is different. In combo you have a scrollbar to move between the 
> values
> and with option all the values are showed..
>
>
>
> Bill Marriott wrote:
>>
>> Hi Josep,
>>
>>> Yes, I better with a button option but how can limit the visible items
>>> when
>>> click? I need the combo presentation so in other cases exist many
>>> values...
>>
>> I am not sure I understand this issue? The syntax for working with a 
>> combo
>> box and option menu are identical. The only difference between the two is
>> than a combo box allows entry of arbitrary values.



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Re: Combobox filled from database

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Josep,

> Yes, I better with a button option but how can limit the visible items 
> when
> click? I need the combo presentation so in other cases exist many 
> values...

I am not sure I understand this issue? The syntax for working with a combo 
box and option menu are identical. The only difference between the two is 
than a combo box allows entry of arbitrary values.



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Re: On-Rev links

[Bill Marriott]

Why was it less than satisfactory?

Just a wild guess here that if you cannot send email, your ISP (Orange) is 
blocking port 25 and you should instead use 587.

> I noted, though, that the mail hosting was less than satisfactory
> -- but I am not sure whether it's on-rev's fault, or Orange's fault!
> (I live in France, and Orange ex-France Telecom is my ISP)



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Re: Combobox filled from database

[Bill Marriott]

The predefined options of a combo box =

the text of btn "combo"

The currently specified value of a combo box =

the label of btn "combo"

Please note that a combo box by definition allows the specification of 
values that are not pre-defined, and would seem to be a poor choice for an 
indexed value list, as someone could enter "poodle" or anything they wanted 
into the box. An Option menu does not have this problem.

If you were to have an Option menu in which you can get and set according to 
an index n (1,2,3...) then:

-- set the menu choice
set the label of btn "option" to line n of the text of btn "option"

-- get the menu choice
put lineOffset ("Euro", btn "option") into n

Hope that helps.

Bill





"Josep"  wrote in message 
news:23478253.p...@talk.nabble.com...
>
> Well, I found that with
>
> lineoffset ("Choice 1", button cb_manufacturer)
>
> I obtain the line where the value is. Great... but now I need to select 
> this
> line...
>
> Salut,
> Josep



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Re: shell access in on-rev - please do not complain anymore

[Bill Marriott]

This was one of the first policies to be changed... you can get SSH (shell) 
access on request, no problem, with on-Rev. p.s.: The Founder's offer is 
still available until 11:59 GMT Tuesday I think.


 wrote in message 
news:00036331.49ff0...@the-office.us...
> Hi,
>
> i do not know, what web hosting does mean in the other countries.
> But if i buy a web hosting package here in germany, then it is normal, 
> that i do not get full shell access.
> If i want full control of the server including shell access i have to 
> purchase a server or a virtual server package.
> On-rev offers lot more than normal web hosting. So i cannot understand why 
> so many people are complaining about the
> missing shell access. Btw. before purchasing on-rev everyone can see the 
> feature chart of on-rev. There is nothing to
> read about shell access.
>
> Okay, if there would be the possibility to use some command line tools 
> like magick this would be fine.
> But i, for one, want a system, which is not vulnerable because everyone 
> gets (full) shell access.
>
> Sorry, but i am just in a bad temper at the moment and i am sick of 
> reading messages complaining about a missing feature
> which was even not promised by Runrev.
>
> I do not know how much you pay for other web hosting packages, but with 
> the on-rev founder offer i can spent about 130,- Euros a month.
>



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Re: Question about On Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Stephen,

You can install Rev on your server using the "Classic" server engine; it's 
free. Most people use it on Linux, but I believe some have gotten the Mac OS 
X and Windows versions to work.

on-Rev uses a new engine with additional features that is not yet available 
for installation on your own server.


> Can¹t find some information. Hoping those of you involved will be able to
answer.

1. Can I install Rev on my own servers?
2. If so, what servers are supported (Apache, IIS, etc, etc)
3. How much? And what are the license terms?



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Re: Runrev on the web

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Jim,

> Just so I understand, using runrev for applications on the web "requires" 
> us to use the runrev service currently priced at 499.00 for life?

No. On-Rev and Revolution Studio/Enterprise/Media at this point are 
completely separate products.

The "Rev on the Web" you are probably thinking of is scheduled for 
Revolution 4.0 in September. This will enable you to put your stacks online 
within a Web page, and it will look and work just like it does on the 
desktop. It does not require the on-Rev service.

on-Rev is a new hosting service with next-generation Revolution server 
scripting built in, plus software which enables you to create, edit, upload, 
manage, inspect and debug your scripts in real-time. It does not require 
Revolution.

If you enjoy using Revolution, you'll probably love on-Rev, though. You'll 
be able to use the language you know to do just about anything you like with 
your Web server. Check out the latest revUp newsletter and attend Thursday's 
seminar for more info.

Newsletter: http://www.runrev.com/newsletter/april/issue69/
Webinar: https://www2.gotomeeting.com/register/974171042

> Is there a way to get runrev on the web without using On-rev?

Yes. Currently, the Web plugin is available for preview and testing by 
people who have registered for our Developers conference in Edinburgh, Sept 
1. That conference is the official kickoff of our new Web technologies and 
the sessions will be designed around getting the most out of them. It will 
likely be our biggest and freshest conference to date... lots of new faces 
and new topics. You can still get 40%+ off registration if you go to

Conference: http://runrevlive.com/09/index.htm

Once your complete registration you'll be given a username and password to 
the Web plugin preview site, which has the pre-beta plugin, several 
examples, and shows you how to use it with your own stacks. 



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Subdomains (was: Re: [OT] Opinions about On-Rev)

[Bill Marriott]

Kay,

> I get one Main domain name and unlimited Sub domains, so if I sign up with
> lan.on-rev.com I can subsequently create kc.lan.on-rev.com and
> dj.lan.on-rev.com. I just want to confirm that Sub domains are added to 
> the
> left - seems important when picking a name.

- Yes, when you buy an on-Rev hosting package, you automatically get 
u...@user.on-rev.com as an email address and http://user.on-rev.com as a 
default web site address. I believe you can indeed set up 
subdomain.user.on-on-rev.com, anothersubdomain.user.on-rev.com, etc. if you 
like.

> Can I then create Sub domains of these Add On Domains? Like '
> almost.allthegoodnamesaretaken.com'? If so, do I need to register these as
> well through GoDaddy or will this simply be something I can do with 'Addon
> Domain Manager' or 'Subdomain Manager' at on-rev?

- When you own a domain [not currently possible to purchase through on-rev 
but soon] you can set up mydomain.com at your registrar to point to the 
on-rev nameservers. You don't have to go back to your registrar for anything 
else, the rest can be managed through the on-Rev control panel, where it is 
considered an "add-on" domain. Specifically,

- You can set up as many subdomains attached to your add-on domains as you 
like. The subdomains can point to a space on your storage area, your home 
computer, or forward to another web server.

- You can integrate your on-Rev service with existing, external sites hosted 
by clients. For example, your client has the domain bigcorp.com. They can 
set up a subdomain revapps.bigcorp.com that points to your on-rev server 
(they do what's called adding an A record).

> Will I be able to create multiple email addresses for each Add On Domain 
> and
> any sub domains I create or is this only a feature of the 
> on-rev.comdomains?
>
> Are the unlimited Mailing Lists for the on-rev domain only or will I be 
> able
> to create a mailing list for Add On Domains?

- You can set up unlimited emails, mailing lists, databases, etc., linked to 
each add-on domain, or the original user.on-rev.com domain.

> What is the situation with email for these Add On Domains? I see GoDaddy
> provides free email with the Domains you register, but can I move it AND
> control it all from on-rev, ie everything in the one place? Or would it be
> better to leave these with GoDaddy; use GoDaddy's MBs rather than on-rev's
> MBs?

- Yes, when you point the nameservers to on-rev, email for that domain also 
is automatically handled by the on-rev servers, too, unless you specifically 
sex up an "MX record" to direct your email to a different server.

> I understand that Add On domain name annual renewal will still need to be
> handled with GoDaddy, not on-rev? - Scratch that, I see George C Brackett
> posted that on-rev may eventually take up that baton.

- Yes

> A possible use I have for Rev Server Scripting Language, I like to try and
> sync my iCal with my wife's computer when I'm away, but not having a fixed
> IP address it is impossible unless I have her on the phone telling here
> exactly what I need. I'm hoping I could create a Rev Standalone that would
> start up every time she starts her computer and send it's IP + LAN address
> to my on-rev account. Then all I hope to do is access my on-rev account to
> discover what my wife's current full IP address is.

- I do this with my home network. Home PC checks in every couple hours and 
updates the server with my current home IP address.

> Do you think it is possible to have lan.on-rev act as a mini name sever? 
> Any
> request to a particular lan.on-rev page be redirected to the Public or 
> Sites
> folder of my wife's dynamic IP addressed computer?

- Yes you can do this.

> Could this be something
> like a 'HTTP 302 redirect' ? or is this Domain Forwarding & Masking? I
> notice GoDaddy offers Forwarding and Masking but on-rev doesn't mention 
> it.

- There are a variety of ways. The on-rev subdomain manager allows forwards.

> Basically I see I have 4 wants.
>
> A Rev centric address - would be myname.on-rev.com

- You got it

> A family orientated address - registered through GoDaddy or similar
> A hobby orientated address - registered through GoDaddy or similar

- Yup, have As many as you like

> A Private address - somehow use one of the above to discover and
> point/redirect to a computer connected at home to a dynamic IP Address.

- The dynamic part of this is a little tricky, but I have it set up this way 
for one of my domains where home.myowndomain.com points to my home network.




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Re: on-Rev and Domain Names

[Bill Marriott]

No, what we're proposing is the same thing. The fixed IP address is for 
other applications.


"Colin Holgate"  wrote in message 
news:ebdb07aa-0ee7-43b5-afa4-16561affc...@rcn.com...
>
> On Apr 18, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Malte Brill wrote:
>
>>
>> The DNS stuff translates the domain name you enter to the actual IP 
>> address your content is hosted on.
>
> So am I right that it would require the fixed IP option? Wasn't that 
> something like $8 per month?



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Re: [OT] on-rev urls

[Bill Marriott]

You must

1) In GoDaddy's Domain Manager, Point your nameservers for yourdomain.com to 
ns1.on-rev.com and ns2.on-rev.com

2) In On-Rev's control panel, set up an add-on domain for yourdomain.com

Voila, you have yourdomain.com working without all that subdomain business. 
(Don't use forwarding!)



"Colin Holgate"  wrote in message 
news:cb201326-3dd6-4a0b-a280-b81f91888...@rcn.com...
> Hopefully the non-Founders here will humor us asking some questions  about 
> on-rev!
>
> I've had two domains forwarded to areas in my on-rev account (they  were 
> previously sat doing nothing at Go Daddy). The redirecting took a  few 
> hours to kick in, but now if I type the original url, of say 
> www.mysite.com , it gets through to mysite.holgate.on-rev.com ok.
>
> I've read online that you can't make it keep the original url, which  is 
> unfortunate, but understandable. Come the day that Rev does domain 
> registering, would it be feasible to transfer from Go Daddy to Go Rev  (or 
> whatever it would be called), and then see the original urls under  my 
> on-rev account?
>
>
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Re: [OT] Opinions about On-Rev

[Bill Marriott]

Kay,

I know I'm not an unbiased source but I just wanted to point out that beyond 
your basic email and web space, (actually I think MobileMe is killing web 
pages) there is almost no comparison between MobileMe and on-Rev. I mean, I 
guess you could say that on-Rev is a MobileMe for Revolution users just 
because it's highly targeted and provides specific functionality... but I 
think the comparison breaks down after that. MobileMe is about syncing files 
and contacts across multiple devices. While on-Rev is a Rev developer's 
dream home for server scripting.

As for Dreamhost, we specifically did not want to compete on a 
bandwidth/storage basis. Yes, we wanted to provide more than ample space for 
a good price, and yes we want to make it an easy decision to use us for 
hosting all your sites. Before on-Rev, I was using Dreamhost and a second, 
cPanel-based provider. Dreamhost is great and very Rev-friendly. I have the 
classic Rev engine, 3.0, working there. I haven't gotten around to putting 
3.5 up because in the end it's probably an hour of work for me to download 
the Linux version, pick out the right bits, and upload them with the right 
permissions, etc. The other guys haven't gotten Rev to work since the 2.6.1 
engine, are completely helpless when it comes to trying to get it to work, 
and I've been looking for an excuse to get rid of them.

For me, on-Rev is the ideal place I'd want to switch to from the previous 
cPanel provider. I get to use the same UI as the old one (in fact, it's easy 
to just back up and restore my whole site cPanel-to-cPanel). I know it's got 
its detractors but cPanel is pretty common and great for average people like 
me. I get better spec hardware hosting it, with more storage and more 
bandwidth. No feature losses. And one important advantage...

The core value of this service is knowing that whenever you want -- without 
any complicated setup, getting into FTP programs, etc. -- you can quickly 
add  tags to a page. And if it doesn't work, you have the comfort of a 
nice debugger that shows you variables in real time, etc. Makes it so easy 
for quick tasks and finally possible to tackle bigger projects without 
pulling your hair out.

In other words, it was designed to be the ultimate place to be for anyone 
who uses Rev, and the whole point of being a "Founder" is not just to get a 
great deal on hosting, but to help make it great with feedback and 
suggestions and just plain using it :)

- Bill
  runrev marketing guy






"Kay C Lan"  wrote 
in message 
news:f73a98160904170517j605d7ea5i7a0ab23bd0613...@mail.gmail.com...
>I would like some opinions on the new on-Rev offer.
>
> This offer is very timely as I've been telling myself I 'need' to have a 
> web
> presence. ('need' as in my wife needs a new dress or I need a new gadget). 
> I
> guess I'm a bit like Marian in this regard, a bit of a neophyte when it
> comes to cgi, php etc; so as a Mac user MobileMe probably sounds like the
> web solution.
>
> But having said that, I do consider MobileMe more for my mother than for 
> me.
> I do dabble in mySQL and can have it work across a LAN, and have even 
> tested
> it over a WAN, but without a hosting service a one off test was all it 
> was.
>
> I know that a few here recommend Dreamhost. At the moment the only
> deficiencies that I've noted from a quick scan is that on-Rev doesn't list
> QuickTime/RealAudio support, but I get the impression that such holes will
> be filled rapidly.
>
> I'm probably not the prime target for on-Rev, but I don't consider myself
> the prime target for Revolution either. I love Rev and I can see that if
> on-Rev can minimise the need for PHP, CGI and javascript knowledge, I 
> could
> really enjoy working in on-Rev as well.
>
> So I was wondering if some kind List members would share their thoughts on
> the pros and cons, the haves and have-nots - excluding cost as I don't 
> want
> this to be an issue, ie if you can't afford on-Rev right now but think 
> it's
> a great offer I'd like to know why, just the same as if you can afford
> on-Rev but aren't interested I'd like to know why. I'm looking more at the
> personal/family end of the spectrum rather than the business perspective.
> Will on-Rev = Dreamhost? If not, why not. What will on-Rev provide that 
> I'll
> never get from MobileMe and what will MobileMe provide that I'll never be
> able to do with on-Rev?
>
> Thanks in advance for all those that share their thoughts.
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Re: On-Rev: We've listened

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Richard,

> Will the new server engine become available for use on our own servers as 
> well? If so, when, and how difficult/easy will it be to set up?

This is covered on the FAQ page...

http://on-rev.com/faq

And the answer is yes, some edition of on-Rev technology may be available 
down the road for other servers, but on-Rev will always have a little bit 
more to offer, because we control the entire environment. 



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Re: On-Rev: We've listened

[Bill Marriott]

Marian,

> A quick question, Kevin--one that may well demonstrate how much of a 
> neophyte I am when it comes to server apps--if so, sorry.  What  happens 
> when the server app goes beta or even live?  Will we founding  members 
> still be able to use it?  Will use of it depend on renewing  our Rev 
> subscription?  Or will it be a totally separate subscription?

Founders get the on-Rev hosting and on-Rev Server Scripting features for 
life. They are getting the alpha version now -- which is very usable -- and 
of course later pre-release and production versions. They will also have the 
chance to be the first in line for the other news stuff we're building.

People with on-Rev in other words will always have the latest and greatest 
toys ahead of everyone else. While some components of the on-Rev technology 
will be making its way into other editions of our server engine, some things 
will only be possible for on-Rev users, because we have complete control 
over the entire server environment.

There is nothing to renew and your on-Rev hosting account is totally 
separate from your desktop license. You do not need one to use the other. 
The one-time $499 "Founders" initiation fee is the only thing you pay... 
then you get the hosting service with on-Rev scripting technologies for 
life.

- Bill 



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Re: Quite possibly . . .

[Bill Marriott]

Bob,

> However, if he means create a multiuser network device scanning  utility 
> that can give you details on every device known to man, then  somehow 
> decrypt every installed piece of software's license code,  interfaces with 
> all Office products from every age since it's  inception, hacks into the 
> NSA secure server, and bounces the data off  a spy satellite, then of 
> course the answer would be, "nope."

There's nothing about that Rev can't do, though. It's just a lot more work. 
It's a matter of reverse engineering the various encryption schemes and 
APIs. After all, Revolution literally bounces data off satellites every day.

http://www.runrev.com/products/testimonials/nasa/ 



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Re: bgcolor of option button doesn't work on Mac

[Bill Marriott]

It doesn't change the color because it's respecting Mac OS X user interface 
standards. If you want to tint the button, you can overlay a colored, 
disabled graphic with a blendLevel.

> Are you sure that you mean an option menu button? If I try to change 
> colours of an option menu button in Mac OS X 10.5.6, all I can change  is 
> the colour of the label. I don't think that one is supposed to  change the 
> colpour of native objects.
>
> You could try to use a pulldown menu button. If you set the threeD to 
> false and add colour to it, it is no longer native. You will need to  make 
> sure that the button is opaque to see the fillcolor.

>> Rev 3.0 setting the backgroundcolor of a option menu button works on 
>> Win,
>> but not on Mac. On Mac the background of the button keeps its  standard 
>> grey
>> and a kind of a border gets the wanted backgroundcolor.



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Re: My BBC Master - - - getting Beeped-off.

[Bill Marriott]

SparkOut,

> One drawback in particular is that with the internal sound set, then the
> beep will sound even if the user's sound settings are set to mute. That 
> can
> be a very unwanted effect.

Or the exact wanted effect.

The issue is that beep is just a beep and was not intended to be a 
magnificent multimedia playback thing, or even an end-user-friendly feature.

In the pre-2.9 days, beep always sounded the internal buzzer on Windows 
boxes. The buzzer had some idiosyncratic capabilities, that didn't even work 
on all systems, to vary the pitch and duration of its little tweets. It 
didn't go through the system's sound manager, so you're correct that muting 
had no effect. Indeed it didn't even use a sound card, which was a very good 
thing if you were writing a utility for a headless server that didn't have 
one. You could have different tones for various events, and didn't have to 
install drivers or hook up speakers for these.

Over the years, the internal PC buzzer disappeared from some systems (and 
indeed was sometimes emulated via poorly-written drivers). In Rev 2.9, it 
was requested that beep simply sound the system's usual alert tone as 
specified through the operating system's control panel. And it was made to 
do so -- with the addition of the beepSound property to satisfy people (like 
me) who still wanted the ability to address the internal buzzer on Windows 
for a variety of reasons. So now you have beepPitch and beepDuration being 
more esoteric than ever, and it appears the changes had the side effect of 
screwing up the Linux beep, if it ever worked at all (I did not test 2.6.1 
on Linux).

> I'd love to futher a civil and non-political call for better audio support
> in Rev, and in my view something that needs to have no dependence on
> QuickTime.

Sure. I just wanted to address a very specific technical question. This has 
nothing to do with QuickTime. It's just about calling the standard system 
alert. 



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Re: How to check, if QT has corrupted stack title

[Bill Marriott]

You should not store it as a custom property, but rather always take both 
snapshots at runtime.

Just choose the correct spots:

- On Windows, compare the left side and right side, offset away from 
standard window chrome, as in my example.
- On Mac, compare just left of center and far right of the window

In either case, if the title is truncated, the areas will match. If it's 
working properly they will not.

See:

http://wjm.org/linked/swatches.png



"Tiemo Hollmann TB"  wrote 
in message news:f01362bbf07e49fb9c7972942a369...@kestner.local...
No, my approach won't work either, because of the different skins and system
colors the stored snapshot always will be different - too quick shot :(
Tiemo 



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Re: How to check, if QT has corrupted stack title

[Bill Marriott]

Tiemo ,

> I think on Win it won't work, because the title is left
> aligned, so comparing the left and right rect would always be false.

I wrote this on Win... do you mean Mac, which is center-aligned? Either way, 
it's the only approach I can think of. You just have to check the proper 
region, adjusting the offsets depending on the OS.

> function mungedTitleBar
>put the rect of this stack into myRect -- left,top,right,bottom
>
>put myRect into leftRect
>add 40 to item 1 of leftRect
>subtract 20 from item 2 of leftRect
>put item 1 of leftRect + 20 into item 3 of leftRect
>put item 2 of leftRect + 10 into item 4 of leftRect
>
>put leftRect into rightRect
>put item 3 of myRect - 90 into item 1 of rightRect
>put item 3 of myRect - 70 into item 3 of rightRect
>
>export snapshot from rect leftRect to foobarL as PNG
>export snapshot from rect rightRect to foobarR as PNG
>
>return foobarL = foobarR
> end mungedTitleBar



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Re: My BBC Master - - - getting Beeped-off.

[Bill Marriott]

Richmond,

I should have known better than to respond :) But insofar as the use-list is 
a "knowledge base" I thought I would add in this helpful command that had 
been overlooked to the data stream.

I do not disagree at all with the idea that Rev should be able to play 
multiple audio streams simultaneously, and perhaps even bend the pitch of 
those audio streams. It would be a very nice addition to the multimedia 
arsenal. I simply didn't want to wade through it all to deliver an answer.

I just tried out beep on my Mac; it worked fine. This is on 2.9, not 
post-2.9. But it does play the defined System Alert, which may be invalid or 
empty on your systems. I wasn't able to coax anything out of Ubuntu; looking 
into it.

Glad you'll be attending the Edinburgh conference! Perhaps we should add 
this to our marketing materials :)

- Bill 



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Re: How to check, if QT has corrupted stack title

[Bill Marriott]

Tiemo,

> I am not looking for a workaround, to get the tile back, but I am still
> looking for a solution, if it is possible to analyze, IF the title is 
> broken
> or not. Comparing the title with a string, doesn't works, because the 
> title
> property is still ok, it is just an issue of the title display. If I could
> find out, IF the title is broken, I could set it to empty only on those
> machines, where it is broken and for the majority of the users I could 
> show
> a title.

This is horrible, but:

function mungedTitleBar
   put the rect of this stack into myRect -- left,top,right,bottom

   put myRect into leftRect
   add 40 to item 1 of leftRect
   subtract 20 from item 2 of leftRect
   put item 1 of leftRect + 20 into item 3 of leftRect
   put item 2 of leftRect + 10 into item 4 of leftRect

   put leftRect into rightRect
   put item 3 of myRect - 90 into item 1 of rightRect
   put item 3 of myRect - 70 into item 3 of rightRect

   export snapshot from rect leftRect to foobarL as PNG
   export snapshot from rect rightRect to foobarR as PNG

   return foobarL = foobarR
end mouseUp

This function captures two swatches from the titlebar of the current window. 
Assuming you have a window title that is longer than one or two characters 
but not so long as to fill the entire window width, if the left swatch 
matches the right swatch, then it's probably not displaying properly. 



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Re: My BBC Master - - - getting Beeped-off.

[Bill Marriott]

Richmond,

I don't know if this has been answered (the thread diverged into political 
discourse), but in Rev 2.9 and later your script will give the expected 
results (at least on Windows) if you say,

set the beepsound to internal

set the beepPitch to 220

beep

set the beepPitch to 440

beep

This is because the beep command was changed to use the system alert by 
default, and not the internal PC buzzer, which can do some interesting 
things.



"Richmond Mathewson"  
wrote in message news:564498.57023...@web37506.mail.mud.yahoo.com...

In the middle of the night I awoke with "beep" in my head;

and so looked up:

beepPitch

getting all excited as I did so . . .

popped this into a button:

on mouseUp
set the beepPitch to 220
beep
set the beepPitch to 440
beep
end mouseUp

I don't know what the value of 'beep' is at all as heard no beeps! 



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Re: Gutenberg Reader

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Peter,

I am very interested in the Gutenberg texts, so I downloaded your 
application and gave it a try. Unfortunately, I'm the impatient sort and 
never figured out how to display one of the texts within your application. 
So, my one bit of [hopefully constructive] criticism then is that you make 
it very easy to browse and search for available texts, such that one is 
immediately presented with a list and only has to click a title they are 
interested in to jump right into reading it.

- Bill 



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Re: [ANN] chartsEngine - now on revSelect

[Bill Marriott]

Richard,

> If the RunRev store had PayPal I'd have purchased it already.  Limited to 
> CCs, I expect to get it soon.


As announced in the last newsletter, the Revolution store now supports 
PayPal.

http://www.runrev.com/newsletter/february/issue65/newsletter4.php 



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Re: McAfee virus detection deletes valid file

[Bill Marriott]

Perhaps you should replace the offending VBA code with Rev code? Or a 
Rev-based installer?

> The glitch is (always a glitch) that my Rev app doesn't call the module, 
> it doesn't even use it. The module is an add-in for Office, and the module 
> in turn calls my Rev app.



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Re: Syntax for POST processing via CGI?

[Bill Marriott]

Thanks so much, Mark!

That worked; much easier than I thought... though the return from stdin is 
more like:

> -7d92ce191e091a
> Content-Disposition: form-data; name="FirstName"
>
> Bill

and not the value/parameter pairs you get from a GET. I wonder what the 
number in the first line signifies (it's not the value specified in the 
$UNIQUE_ID global).

It's interesting how a binary upload is handled... I get:

> -7d92ce191e091a
> Content-Disposition: form-data; name="FileUpload"; filename=""
> Content-Type: application/octet-stream

followed by a variety of stuff depending on what kind of document I've 
submitted. It doesn't look like it's Mime (or Base64 encoded), and it's 
nowhere near the full number of bytes in the file. I might also note that 
uploading is considerably slower than, say, PHP -- a 20K JPG took more than 
two minutes. Is this something to do with the way the data is being read?

What's the magic in handling a file upload? (Again, bare-bones.)

FWIW I think I'll put this together in an article for the next revUp 
newsletter.

- Bill

"Mark Smith" wrote:

> on startup
>put postData() into tPostData
>split tPostData by "&" & "="
>-- postData is now an array of the form data
>
> end startup
>
> function postData
>put empty into tData
>put 0 into c
>repeat while tData is empty and c < 20
>   read from stdin until empty
>   put it after tData
>   add 1 to c
>   wait 20 millisecs
>end repeat
>return tData
> end postData
>
>
> note that it reads from stdin repeatedly until it's got something -  for 
> some reason, the data doesn't always appear straight away.
>
> On 10 Jan 2009, at 14:42, Bill Marriott wrote:
>
>> anyone have a
>> bare-bones script for processing POST submissions with CGI 



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Syntax for POST processing via CGI?

[Bill Marriott]

Hi folks,

Was working on a project this weekend and wondered if anyone had a 
bare-bones script for processing POST submissions with a CGI script? (Would 
prefer not to get complicated with using a library).

For example, handling a form that submits via the POST method to 
myrevscript.cgi

- Bill 



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Re: Latest Rev cgi engines for Linux server ?

[Bill Marriott]

Hi JB,

> Does anyone have some experience to share on a Linux distro for a server
> and one of the most recent versions of Rev, that would allow cgi scripts

I'm running Rev 3.0 with success on Dreamhost. However, my other hosting 
provider (cPanel-based) does not like Rev 3.0 ... I haven't had time to dig 
into it thoroughly, and they haven't been quick to respond to my emails 
about it.

- Bill 



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Re: Losing data when quitting

[Bill Marriott]

Timothy,

> Today, I'm working with a single small stack I don't use very often. I 
> just realized that if I make changes and "Quit Revolution" from the 
> "Revolution" menu, to the left of the "File" menu, I don't get a save 
> prompt, and none of my changes are saved.

If you can consistently reproduce this behavior, it's a bug, and should be 
reported. Attach the stack in question to the report. 



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Re: Where to download beta versions?

[Bill Marriott]

He skipped dp-1, or it would show up in "manage versions"

> Are you sure the version isn't in your Studio or Enterprise folder? It
> doesn't appear that it writes over the old one. It just changes the alias.



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Re: conditional formatting, how to do it

[Bill Marriott]

When using "repeat for each x in y" you MUST consider each of the referenced 
items (x and y) to be "read only."

>From the docs:

---
Important! In any of the for each loops, you should not change the 
labelVariable or container in a statement inside the loop. Doing so will not 
cause a script error, but will almost certainly produce unexpected results.
---

Additionally, you are trying to set the style of a variable, which would 
have no effect.

You would rather say:

repeat with i = 1 to the number of lines in fld "test"
if word 1 of line i of fld "test" is "Sunday" then
set the textStyle of line i of fld "test" to "bold"
end if
end repeat 



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