Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Yep, but how to get two buttons (and a scroll wheel) on my new i-Book? Cash, check or charge all seem to work. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OT Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Jan 3, 2004, at 9:41 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: I-Tunes is the 'BETAMAX' to the rest of the online Music 'VHS'. And those who invest in the 'beta' technology will end up not being able to use the scores of other hardware, software and media retail/online outlets for their music needs. While I applaud Apple for innovating the finest current hardware/software model for music distribution,IMHO, it's only a matter of a couple of years before they become an also-ran in this market-- unless they can provide some sort of standard which can be shared by other players, including DELL, HP, SONY, etc. No, OggVorbis is the BETAMAX of online music :-) Burn a CD from iTunes, then rip the files back to .mp3 format- is what a lot of users are doing. That is a major concession by the record companies, thanks to Apple. The itunes model is closest there is to having a real-CD-in-hand type of ownership. I read that Apple is using iTunes solely to drive iPod sales. So I guess it makes sense they are not being altruistic and supporting other brands of players at this point. But the iTunes store file format is MPEG + the AAC codec. So is the DRM the only thing preventing other players from doing .m4p files directly? Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com what a waste of thumbs that are opposable to make machines that are disposable -Ani DiFranco ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Jan 3, 2004, at 10:49 PM, Alex Rice wrote: I think the hockey puck mouse must have been a cruel joke by some hardware designer at apple. FWIW the hockey puck design fit very nicely in the hands of little children. My friend has a couple of little kids and those mice work perfectly for them. Now, why you would distribute all of your computers with one is beyond me but they do have a place somewhere :-) -- Trevor DeVore Blue Mango Multimedia [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 12:17 AM, Trevor DeVore wrote: On Jan 3, 2004, at 10:49 PM, Alex Rice wrote: I think the hockey puck mouse must have been a cruel joke by some hardware designer at apple. FWIW the hockey puck design fit very nicely in the hands of little children. My friend has a couple of little kids and those mice work perfectly for them. Now, why you would distribute all of your computers with one is beyond me but they do have a place somewhere :-) And the stiff cord that caused it to turn sideways? Dar ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
You're correct. JPG's (and GIF's) aren't affected by screenGamma, and work well on both platforms. It's the PNG's that are affected. I've been using JPG's as 'background images' when I need an animated GIF overlaid on top of them. -Chipp -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Alex Rice Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 2:04 AM To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property... On Jan 3, 2004, at 1:39 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: Also, while setting the screenGamma to 2.2 on the Mac does solve the color matching problem, it creates an even larger color perception difference between the two platforms. IMHO, not necessarily a good idea. Thinking about this issue more, and loaded a JPEG photo into my gammatest stack, and I can't notice a difference at all in the JPEG display when I switch from screenGamma 2.2 to 1.8. Is that what would be expected? I guess I'm still confused Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com what a waste of thumbs that are opposable to make machines that are disposable -Ani DiFranco ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Alex Rice wrote On Jan 3, 2004, at 9:07 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: As fine as Macs are for creating print and video, last I heard, they only had a 3% marketshare for all computers. So, all those other computers are viewing on 'non-Mac' gamma settings. I'm with Richard and believe Apple should consider adopting the predominant gamma standard. The first thing I did when getting the i-Book was reset the gamma. I am not arguing with 97% making a de-facto standard. But I'm asking, if there is/was a good reason for the Mac's funky gamma, if it was born before the MS Windows PC gamma, and if it is a matter of principle that Mac's haven't switched to the predominant standard. I'm not a graphics professional- just curious. Yes there is a reason for Mac funky gamma, which is that it results in colours on screen that closely reflect the actual image data ;-) - which is not only a nicety but actually of great importance in the print industry where colour mistakes have potential to be a serious and expensive issue. The print industry is one where the mac has had an historical dominance. Why would it benefit Apple to upset those customers? How many new customers would it get if it adopted uncorrected gamma as standard? Might it actually just end up with 2% market share instead? Richard's (conceivably mischievous) opinion that Apple should discard gamma correction seems to rest on the assumption that Mac Gamma is just a perverse nuisance that confers no benefit. I think that in the print industry at least it is perceived as a superior system to the 'oh who really cares about colour accuracy?' 'system' that's usual in windows and unix because that's 'good enough for the average office user or scientific programmer'. The PC/unix gamma is just what you get with no gamma correction at all, in other words the issue of display linearity is just ignored by those platforms. Back in the nineties I used to teach Photoshop. I recall one time a PC-using student brought in an image he'd scanned at home and was shocked to see how washed-out it looked on the Mac, saying it looked much darker on his PC. He seemed to suspect that there was something wrong with the Mac. So I showed him the histogram of the image, which turned out to contain no information whatever below about 20% brightness. On his system however this level had looked like black. Surely interoperability can be achieved without abolishing biodiversity? Isn't that supposed to be the intention of the Internet? Just because the great majority of users don't know what screen-gamma is or could care less, it does not follow that no manufacturer should offer a system designed for those who do. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the whole point of computers is precisely that they are tools that may be adapted to individual and minority requirements. Martin ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Just a side bar comment on standards that is slightly off-topic. What Apple knows and what Apple does has unfortunately cost them many opportunities. For proof, visit this little web site... http://aurejac.dyndns.org/ Seventeen years is very nearly half the entire epoch of commercial computing. Jim on 1/3/04 6:11 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Alex Rice wrote: On Jan 3, 2004, at 3:56 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Which raises the obvious question: When will Apple play nice and adopt the predominant standard? For graphics, print and video production Macs *are* the standard. Except, ironiclly, at Pixar, where they have more Linux machines than Macs. http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/10/28/pixarosx/index.php?redirect= 1073135312000 FWIW SGIs also used a similar gamma- and they were used in graphics and video a lot. TV and Video production is just different than PC computer graphics I guess. I'm not sure, but from what I've read, it's not as simple as twiddling a decimal number for the gamma somewhere in the system defaults. http://www.poynton.com/notes/colour_and_gamma/GammaFAQ.html http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/Mac_gamma.pdf Good info, thanks. Now AFAIK quickdraw is obsoleted and now the graphics API is Quartz+CoreGraphics, which does not use QuickDraw at all. Maybe the gamma model is the same? We can hope. Interoperability is critical for wide adoption across any large organization, whether corporate or academic. Everything that helps move that goal along helps all of us, esp. Apple. I hear they're finally considering a two-button mouse; is a universal gamma setting so unthinkable? Hating Macs today, Richard? Actually I use a 3 button scrollwheel mouse on all my Macs. But Control-click == Right click if you are ever using a 1 button mouse. Control-Click = two hands Hating Macs? On the contrary. In fact, I'm writing this on a Mac, as I have since 1987. The difference between me and a fair number of other Apple loyalists is recognizing that status quo is deadly in an environment of radical dynamic change like computing. As with living organisms, the only organizations that aren't moving are dead. So I ask questions, and once in a while some feel these may appear to be anti-Apple sentiments, but that's not the case at all. I'm just trying to think beyond Steve's last keynote. When the iMac shipped with no means of backing up data without a network server or a third-party device, seeing that most of these were going into homes and relatively few into the enterprise I called it a mistake. Some of my friends mistook that for being anti-Apple, but later Steve Jobs himself publicly called it a mistake and Apple became the last major manufacturer to offer CD burners as standard equipment. Same story with the hockey puck mouse. No human is perfect, not even Steve Jobs. ;) And an organization is just a collection of imperfect individuals. Individuals improve their effectiveness through a lifelong process of tempering their internal vision of how the world works by incorporating the needs and wants of their social context, hopefully moving us day by day toward Maslow's self-actualization. As a collection of individuals, organizations can learn similarly, refining their internal understanding of their place in the world through constructive engagement with others. When customers call here for support, the ones who complain are often taken aback by how excited I am to hear from them. But the fact is that while flattery feels good, it's not nearly as instructive as criticism; I already know the decisions I've made, but I need guidance to determine the next decisions I will make. Everyone has blind spots. The older I get the more willing I am to throw code and designs away when confronted with a compelling argument for a new way of doing things. These days I focus less on the software that I make and more on its evolutionary process. Everything made by humans can be made even better. So while I applauded Apple's decision to maintain the single-button mouse for years, in the modern context the decision has outlived its usefulness. Computers are no longer a novelty, with a market penetration rivalling VCRs. If folks can find their way around the many poorly-designed remote controls for VCRs they can certainly learn to appreciate the advantages a two-button mouse. :) I've heard rumors that Apple is already leaning that way, and when Steve gives it the official blessing it will no longer seem a radical suggestion, but will instead be described as brilliant, even if half a decade behind the curve. Much of the Apple customer base is like that, so accustomed to defending their choice against stupid Apple is doomed FUD that they've become defensive toward anything that hasn't already been blessed by Steve. I know it well, I was one of those for many years until I started working
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Martin Baxter wrote the best explanation of the Mac gamma I've read yet: Alex Rice wrote On Jan 3, 2004, at 9:07 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: As fine as Macs are for creating print and video, last I heard, they only had a 3% marketshare for all computers. So, all those other computers are viewing on 'non-Mac' gamma settings. I'm with Richard and believe Apple should consider adopting the predominant gamma standard. The first thing I did when getting the i-Book was reset the gamma. I am not arguing with 97% making a de-facto standard. But I'm asking, if there is/was a good reason for the Mac's funky gamma, if it was born before the MS Windows PC gamma, and if it is a matter of principle that Mac's haven't switched to the predominant standard. I'm not a graphics professional- just curious. Yes there is a reason for Mac funky gamma, which is that it results in colours on screen that closely reflect the actual image data ;-) - which is not only a nicety but actually of great importance in the print industry where colour mistakes have potential to be a serious and expensive issue. The print industry is one where the mac has had an historical dominance. Why would it benefit Apple to upset those customers? How many new customers would it get if it adopted uncorrected gamma as standard? Might it actually just end up with 2% market share instead? Unfortunately that's already happened: http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/78/jobs.html [An aside about that article: While it describes the weaknesses inherent in focusing on technological innovation without also innovating other aspects of business throughput, the upside is that the other aspects are not as demanding. The implication is very positive, suggesting that Apple could at any time apply their trademark innovative thinking to these less glamorous aspects as they do with product design, thereby acheiving the same results as other successful business-process innovators while maintaining advantage in the product experience.] Richard's (conceivably mischievous) opinion that Apple should discard gamma correction seems to rest on the assumption that Mac Gamma is just a perverse nuisance that confers no benefit. I'm far too ignorant of the details to have made claims about Apple's decision on color management, but I did raise a sincere question: can we reach a little higher to find a way to have excellent color correction without the aggregate loss of millions of human hours each year in multi-platfom workflows? This article suggests that since Win ME color correction is not the issue it used to be: http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hwdev/tech/color/wincolormgmt.mspx I recognize the article is published by convicted antitrust violators and may therefore be even more suspect than any other vendor's argument about why buying into their solution is superior. But on balance, I also recognize that both platforms have much in common so there must be a way for ingenuity to prevail over lost time. I'm admittedly close to completely ignorant of the demands of color correction for quality printing; as a multimedia dude I use my cheap printer less than once a month (Dan Friedman calls my printer crappy and I concur g). There may well be many aspects of this that are beyond what little understanding I can gain from a handful of Web articles. Still, this color layman can't help but wonder: Cameras, scanners, displays, printers, and ICC profiles are already interoperable, so the only remaining element is the OS color management scheme. To what degree is the current disparity between OSes driven by truly technical constraints, and to what degree may technical considerations be hampered by human weaknesses like NIH (the not invented here syndrome) or mere adherence to the past? In short, if the problem of color correction is universal, why can't there be a universal solution? This is an excellent point: Surely interoperability can be achieved without abolishing biodiversity? Isn't that supposed to be the intention of the Internet? Just because the great majority of users don't know what screen-gamma is or could care less, it does not follow that no manufacturer should offer a system designed for those who do. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the whole point of computers is precisely that they are tools that may be adapted to individual and minority requirements. Essential to sound democratic (people-driven) systems is that minorities are given protections from mob rule. Assimilation is for lower organisms. But since all sides suffer a loss from the current disparity with color management, can we find a way to maintain the experiential benefits of choosing one OS over another without necessarily accepting lost productivity as a by-product? Your dreamy optimist friend who maintains the belief that human-derived systems can always be improved, -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On 1/4/04 10:57 AM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In short, if the problem of color correction is universal, why can't there be a universal solution? IMHO, I would say because of the hardware, or the way the hardware is manufactured. To be done well, color correction must be done on a system by system basis. Different monitors display color differently, as do different printers, as do different scanners. To get all the variables of image display in synch requires a good deal of time, experimentation and cost. Getting back to image display in Rev: I've made the following comment before but it bears repeating. You can spend countless hours finessing the color of your on-screen images to follow some kind of standard, but the standard is irrelevant when you get to a user who doesn't know their monitor is set to 256 colors. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Thanks Scott and Dar, Update: I've been building an app for both Mac and PC which runs inside the RR IDE and hope to preview it at the RR conference in SF next week. It is resizable and uses a white 'hilite PNG' to create a sheen over a background texture. The titlebar is custom (I'm using Scott's latest 'on mouseMove handlers' - thanks;-) and it has a blue blinking round lite to indicate online updates. I tried a cleaner cut for the GIF, but it still wasn't 'perfect', so one solution was to make it a square instead of a circle, so the mask is perfect and crisp, but I really liked the ball. So, even though the card bg pattern and the hilite img were PNG's, I decided to change the titlebar to a JPG pattern. Of course, the colors are different from Mac to PC, but the GIF matches perfectly on both. BTW, Scott, yep -- I turned off all of the color compensation stuff in Photoshop on the Mac and PC. And changed the Mac gamma via the Display control panel to be a bit darker and reflect the PC gamma...though it's still significantly lighter. You'd think Apple would get that right as so many websites are designed around the PC gamma. Perhaps I just don't have it right. Dar, perhaps you can tell me what the internal gamma setting is for a Pshop PC generated PNG vs a PShop Mac generated PNG...my guess it they are the same, as I couldn't get a PNG and trans GIF to ever work correctly on my Mac unless setting the gamma to the PC value. -Chipp -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Scott Rossi Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 12:06 AM To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property... On 1/2/04 9:37 PM, Dar Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In addition to the multiple graphic formats that we can employ, users will rarely have the opportunity to directly compare the appearance of a Mac stack with a Windows stack. But his problem is a gif next to a png. In case you missed it, I was responding to Chipp's statement about the appearance of his images: Don't know about if it's possible to change the gamma for the PNG. Even if it were possible, it would probably end up creating even more 'washed out' images on Macs or 'too dark' images on PC. As far as placing an animated GIF next to a PNG goes, Chipp himself provided one solution. Another solution I alluded to would be to employ an image format other than PNG. Or the reverse: use a series of PNGs displayed by script to replace the animated GIF. Another solution could be to build the GIF differently, eliminating as much unnecessary background as possible, so that only the animated portion of the GIF was visible against the PNG background. Of course, these solutions depend on the specific problem -- so far I've rarely seen as problem like this that couldn't be solved with a little ingenuity in building the image. I'm sure Chipp can manage these being the graphics guy he is. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 12:38 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: Dar, perhaps you can tell me what the internal gamma setting is for a Pshop PC generated PNG vs a PShop Mac generated PNG...my guess it they are the same, as I couldn't get a PNG and trans GIF to ever work correctly on my Mac unless setting the gamma to the PC value. I don't think they are the same. Send me your grey box via email. I'll make one on the mac. I'll look at the files and not the export. I will make a tiny PNG gamma thingy and mention it here. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Jan 2, 2004, at 10:21 PM, Scott Rossi wrote: The following article provides one explanation as to what is going with PNGs. If the author's statements are valid, then apparently the problem with PNG display is universal. http://www.hut.fi/u/hsivonen/png-gamma.html Still, this shouldn't really pose any problem for Rev developers. That hsivonen article is good, and makes me wonder some things about Rev: 1) What exactly does setting the screenGamma property do? Does it cause a correction? Is Rev making the problem worse by even offering the screenGamma capability? That question occurs to me only because of this passage: from the hsivonen article: Writing bogus gamma information to files and then doing gamma correction using different bogus gamma information is not solving the problemonly perturbing it further. 2) As a Rev developer, what's the best approach of those mentioned in the hsivonen article- Opting out or Making the Color Spaces Match? I guess experimentation is the only way to arrive at a method that's good for you. Here is my demo stack open stack URL http://mindlube.com/download/files/runrev/gammatest.rev; I created an image in Graphic Converer (Mac) and saved it as GIF, GMP, PNG with-Gamma-value and PNG-without-Gamma-value. The PNG without Gamma value is the Opting out method mentioned above. The results are kind of unexpected, but seem to offer a good solution: Rev on Mac AND Windows- if I set the screenGamma to 2.2, then the BMP, GIF and PNG-without-Gamma all are the same color! The PNG-with-Gamma-value is the oddball, and that was expected in the Opting out approach. With screenGamma of 1.7, then strangely the GIF and the PNG-with-gamma-value are the same color, and the BMP and PNG-without-gamma-value are another color. So save your PNGs without Gamma values, and set the screenGamma to 2.2, and you are good to go on Mac and Win. This is interesting for me because I'm brainstorming up some games and will probably use JPG, GIF and PNGs all mixed together. Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com what a waste of thumbs that are opposable to make machines that are disposable -Ani DiFranco ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 12:49 AM, Alex Rice wrote: With screenGamma of 1.7, then strangely the GIF and the PNG-with-gamma-value are the same color, and the BMP and PNG-without-gamma-value are another color. I'm not sure where the strangely applies. The first two make sense to me. The BMP might be assuming a 2.2 gamma. The last seems strange to me. Dar ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Alex, So save your PNGs without Gamma values, and set the screenGamma to 2.2, and you are good to go on Mac and Win. How do you save w/out Gamma in Photoshop? On the PC? Also, while setting the screenGamma to 2.2 on the Mac does solve the color matching problem, it creates an even larger color perception difference between the two platforms. IMHO, not necessarily a good idea. Nice stack:-) Shows well the issues. Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Jan 3, 2004, at 1:39 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: How do you save w/out Gamma in Photoshop? On the PC? Hmmm... I can't find it. ImageReady has Image menu | Adjustments | Gamma but I don't see an option for turning on or off Gamma values in the saved PNG. BTW Photoshop docs say use Gamma of 2.2 for Windows and 1.8 for Mac. Also, while setting the screenGamma to 2.2 on the Mac does solve the color matching problem, it creates an even larger color perception difference between the two platforms. IMHO, not necessarily a good idea. Donnow. I still have a mental block about what exactly the screenGamma property is actually doing :-) Nice stack:-) Shows well the issues. Thanks Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com what a waste of thumbs that are opposable to make machines that are disposable -Ani DiFranco ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 12:38 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: Dar, perhaps you can tell me what the internal gamma setting is for a Pshop PC generated PNG vs a PShop Mac generated PNG...my guess it they are the same, as I couldn't get a PNG and trans GIF to ever work correctly on my Mac unless setting the gamma to the PC value. Your guess turns out better than mine. The one you sent me has a gamma of 2.22. The one I created with my Photoshop on OS X has a gamma of 2.200026, and it also has a primary chromaticities chunk that might override some of that. Maybe I don't have my photoshop set up right. Setting screenGamma to 2.2 still might not be a solution. I saved my test stack last night with your test PNG image on it, the one with PNG written in the corner. When I loaded it this morning I found the gamma in both the text property and the export showed 1.7. Based on what I saw yesterday and what I see with the test box you sent, this _was_ 2.2. Maybe, setting screenGamma to 2.2 is still OK because, I suspect the pixel data is still for 2.2. I set my test image to 80,80,80 (hex) grey in Photoshop. I don't know what values were actually stored in the PNG file. When I imported it into Revolution the pixels became 69,69,69 hex; well, they were 69 as soon as I could read them. Why I saw 86,86,86 (hex) on your png (the other one with the png label) beats me. I thought it was created as 50% grey, also. Oh, maybe those were 68s. Rats. Sorry. I made a rectangle with a 50% background and it looks a lot lighter. put (baseConvert(69,16,10)^(1/2.2))/(255^(1/2.2)) (128^(1/1.7))/(255^(1/1.7)) == 0.668099 0.89 I _think_ this means that x69 on 2.2 will look the same as x80 on 1.7. Maybe Rev is not converting the 69s to 80s as it should. Well, I don't know enough to say should. One experiment might be to fiddle with gamma on images and see if Rev respects those. The more I think on this, the less I know. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Jan 3, 2004, at 3:56 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Which raises the obvious question: When will Apple play nice and adopt the predominant standard? For graphics, print and video production Macs *are* the standard. FWIW SGIs also used a similar gamma- and they were used in graphics and video a lot. TV and Video production is just different than PC computer graphics I guess. I'm not sure, but from what I've read, it's not as simple as twiddling a decimal number for the gamma somewhere in the system defaults. http://www.poynton.com/notes/colour_and_gamma/GammaFAQ.html http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/Mac_gamma.pdf Now AFAIK quickdraw is obsoleted and now the graphics API is Quartz+CoreGraphics, which does not use QuickDraw at all. Maybe the gamma model is the same? I hear they're finally considering a two-button mouse; is a universal gamma setting so unthinkable? Hating Macs today, Richard? Actually I use a 3 button scrollwheel mouse on all my Macs. But Control-click == Right click if you are ever using a 1 button mouse. Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com what a waste of thumbs that are opposable to make machines that are disposable -Ani DiFranco ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 12:33 PM, Alex Rice wrote: I'm not sure, but from what I've read, it's not as simple as twiddling a decimal number for the gamma somewhere in the system defaults. http://www.poynton.com/notes/colour_and_gamma/GammaFAQ.html I found note #16 here to be helpful in understanding this. There might be some tips we can put together for the current Revolution and there might be some direct and simple enhancements we can suggest. However, I find it good to shoot for the moon in initial wishing. In Revolution it is hard for me to see what should be OS oriented or user oriented. I think this should be user oriented. Like this... Goal 1 A designer can make a stack from a great variety of images from a variety of sources and environments. Goal 2 If two colors among image colors or other colors display equal in one environment, they will display equal in every environment with the same or less colors. Goal 3 The above two apply even to externally referenced (but fixed) image files. Goal 4 There is a strong tendency for colors to look right in the environment the stack is in. Very little darkening or washout when a stack moves to a different environment. Goal 5 Tools and image properties are available that make Goal 1 possible and not too painful. Goal 6 The processing of image information does not go backwards. Maybe there are image properties that help it go forward. I think the above is possible, but a design might need to take care concerning when/what/how many power transforms are needed. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 01:56 PM, Dar Scott wrote: Goal 1 A designer can make a stack from a great variety of images from a variety of sources and environments. Goal 2 If two colors among image colors or other colors display equal in one environment, they will display equal in every environment with the same or less colors. Goal 3 The above two apply even to externally referenced (but fixed) image files. Goal 4 There is a strong tendency for colors to look right in the environment the stack is in. Very little darkening or washout when a stack moves to a different environment. Goal 5 Tools and image properties are available that make Goal 1 possible and not too painful. Goal 6 The processing of image information does not go backwards. Maybe there are image properties that help it go forward. By Goal 6, I mean that scripts using imageData etc. should not break and perhaps there is more opportunity for image processing. Goal 7 Repeated twidling of tools in Goal 5 to accomplish the task in Goal 1 does not cause the image to deteriorate. Goal 8 Those who like original source compression in the stack are still happy, mostly. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Alex Rice wrote: On Jan 3, 2004, at 3:56 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Which raises the obvious question: When will Apple play nice and adopt the predominant standard? For graphics, print and video production Macs *are* the standard. Except, ironiclly, at Pixar, where they have more Linux machines than Macs. http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/10/28/pixarosx/index.php?redirect= 1073135312000 FWIW SGIs also used a similar gamma- and they were used in graphics and video a lot. TV and Video production is just different than PC computer graphics I guess. I'm not sure, but from what I've read, it's not as simple as twiddling a decimal number for the gamma somewhere in the system defaults. http://www.poynton.com/notes/colour_and_gamma/GammaFAQ.html http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/Mac_gamma.pdf Good info, thanks. Now AFAIK quickdraw is obsoleted and now the graphics API is Quartz+CoreGraphics, which does not use QuickDraw at all. Maybe the gamma model is the same? We can hope. Interoperability is critical for wide adoption across any large organization, whether corporate or academic. Everything that helps move that goal along helps all of us, esp. Apple. I hear they're finally considering a two-button mouse; is a universal gamma setting so unthinkable? Hating Macs today, Richard? Actually I use a 3 button scrollwheel mouse on all my Macs. But Control-click == Right click if you are ever using a 1 button mouse. Control-Click = two hands Hating Macs? On the contrary. In fact, I'm writing this on a Mac, as I have since 1987. The difference between me and a fair number of other Apple loyalists is recognizing that status quo is deadly in an environment of radical dynamic change like computing. As with living organisms, the only organizations that aren't moving are dead. So I ask questions, and once in a while some feel these may appear to be anti-Apple sentiments, but that's not the case at all. I'm just trying to think beyond Steve's last keynote. When the iMac shipped with no means of backing up data without a network server or a third-party device, seeing that most of these were going into homes and relatively few into the enterprise I called it a mistake. Some of my friends mistook that for being anti-Apple, but later Steve Jobs himself publicly called it a mistake and Apple became the last major manufacturer to offer CD burners as standard equipment. Same story with the hockey puck mouse. No human is perfect, not even Steve Jobs. ;) And an organization is just a collection of imperfect individuals. Individuals improve their effectiveness through a lifelong process of tempering their internal vision of how the world works by incorporating the needs and wants of their social context, hopefully moving us day by day toward Maslow's self-actualization. As a collection of individuals, organizations can learn similarly, refining their internal understanding of their place in the world through constructive engagement with others. When customers call here for support, the ones who complain are often taken aback by how excited I am to hear from them. But the fact is that while flattery feels good, it's not nearly as instructive as criticism; I already know the decisions I've made, but I need guidance to determine the next decisions I will make. Everyone has blind spots. The older I get the more willing I am to throw code and designs away when confronted with a compelling argument for a new way of doing things. These days I focus less on the software that I make and more on its evolutionary process. Everything made by humans can be made even better. So while I applauded Apple's decision to maintain the single-button mouse for years, in the modern context the decision has outlived its usefulness. Computers are no longer a novelty, with a market penetration rivalling VCRs. If folks can find their way around the many poorly-designed remote controls for VCRs they can certainly learn to appreciate the advantages a two-button mouse. :) I've heard rumors that Apple is already leaning that way, and when Steve gives it the official blessing it will no longer seem a radical suggestion, but will instead be described as brilliant, even if half a decade behind the curve. Much of the Apple customer base is like that, so accustomed to defending their choice against stupid Apple is doomed FUD that they've become defensive toward anything that hasn't already been blessed by Steve. I know it well, I was one of those for many years until I started working with multiple operating systems and seeing how the other 98% of the world works. My suggestion about gamma settings was in earnest: the two-button mouse is coming sooner or later (I'd be surprised if Apple closes 2004 without it), and that's a healthy change for everyone. Perhaps one day we'll see a standardized gamma across all OSes, and that will be a healthy change too. Any difference between platforms not
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On 1/3/04 2:11 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The difference between me and a fair number of other Apple loyalists is recognizing that status quo is deadly in an environment of radical dynamic change like computing. As with living organisms, the only organizations that aren't moving are dead. So I ask questions, and once in a while some feel these may appear to be anti-Apple sentiments, but that's not the case at all. I'm just trying to think beyond Steve's last keynote. Kudos to Brother Richard for making this point. No tech company is beyond question, including Apple, RunRev, etc. It's up to us developers/users to push for things that make the systems/tools better. Do so will make life better for all; blind faith loyalty won't benefit anyone. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
In fact, I'm writing this on a Mac, as I have since 1987. i'm glad to see i'm not the only slow typer around here ;-) ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
The one-button mouse is (soon) dead! Long live Apple! In fact, I'm using a Microsoft (gasp!) two-button Wheel Mouse Optical USB mouse on my Mac and have been using two-button mice with Mac development ever since OS 9 was released... the nice thing for me is that I can do things one-handed instead of needing my second hand to push the Control key... :-) Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Yeah but look at your statement below. I would agree with you even that I am a preferred Mac user except you had to end the following statement with an attack with words. Your attack states that anyone who isn't like you can't see beyond Steve's last keynote. This appears to be very much an attack. My2cents And I apologize now for my comments. Tom On Jan 3, 2004, at 6:02 PM, Scott Rossi wrote: So I ask questions, and once in a while some feel these may appear to be anti-Apple sentiments, but that's not the case at all. I'm just trying to think beyond Steve's last keynote. Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.1, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.1.2 Advanced Media Group Thomas J McGrath III 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 220 Drake Road, Bethel Park, PA 15102 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
I am using a wireless Logitech track ball with eight buttons. And now I can't even use a two button mouse let alone a one button mouse. And I can't use the tracpad at all. Using a button for command and control modifiers is the only way to go for me. :-) tom On Jan 3, 2004, at 7:25 PM, Ken Ray wrote: The one-button mouse is (soon) dead! Long live Apple! In fact, I'm using a Microsoft (gasp!) two-button Wheel Mouse Optical USB mouse on my Mac and have been using two-button mice with Mac development ever since OS 9 was released... the nice thing for me is that I can do things one-handed instead of needing my second hand to push the Control key... :-) Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.1, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.1.2 Advanced Media Group Thomas J McGrath III 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 220 Drake Road, Bethel Park, PA 15102 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Dar, You are correct, the original image in the demo stack was set at 128,128,128 but the one I sent you was different. I left the original one at work. Let me know if you'd like another 128,128,128 PNG from a PC and I'll fire you one. --Chipp On Jan 3, 2004, at 1:15 PM, Dar Scott wrote: On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 12:38 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: Dar, perhaps you can tell me what the internal gamma setting is for a Pshop PC generated PNG vs a PShop Mac generated PNG...my guess it they are the same, as I couldn't get a PNG and trans GIF to ever work correctly on my Mac unless setting the gamma to the PC value. Your guess turns out better than mine. The one you sent me has a gamma of 2.22. The one I created with my Photoshop on OS X has a gamma of 2.200026, and it also has a primary chromaticities chunk that might override some of that. Maybe I don't have my photoshop set up right. Setting screenGamma to 2.2 still might not be a solution. I saved my test stack last night with your test PNG image on it, the one with PNG written in the corner. When I loaded it this morning I found the gamma in both the text property and the export showed 1.7. Based on what I saw yesterday and what I see with the test box you sent, this _was_ 2.2. Maybe, setting screenGamma to 2.2 is still OK because, I suspect the pixel data is still for 2.2. I set my test image to 80,80,80 (hex) grey in Photoshop. I don't know what values were actually stored in the PNG file. When I imported it into Revolution the pixels became 69,69,69 hex; well, they were 69 as soon as I could read them. Why I saw 86,86,86 (hex) on your png (the other one with the png label) beats me. I thought it was created as 50% grey, also. Oh, maybe those were 68s. Rats. Sorry. I made a rectangle with a 50% background and it looks a lot lighter. put (baseConvert(69,16,10)^(1/2.2))/(255^(1/2.2)) (128^(1/1.7))/(255^(1/1.7)) == 0.668099 0.89 I _think_ this means that x69 on 2.2 will look the same as x80 on 1.7. Maybe Rev is not converting the 69s to 80s as it should. Well, I don't know enough to say should. One experiment might be to fiddle with gamma on images and see if Rev respects those. The more I think on this, the less I know. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Alex, On Jan 3, 2004, at 1:33 PM, Alex Rice wrote: On Jan 3, 2004, at 3:56 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Which raises the obvious question: When will Apple play nice and adopt the predominant standard? For graphics, print and video production Macs *are* the standard. FWIW SGIs also used a similar gamma- and they were used in graphics and video a lot. TV and Video production is just different than PC computer graphics I guess. As fine as Macs are for creating print and video, last I heard, they only had a 3% marketshare for all computers. So, all those other computers are viewing on 'non-Mac' gamma settings. I'm with Richard and believe Apple should consider adopting the predominant gamma standard. The first thing I did when getting the i-Book was reset the gamma. best, Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Thomas J McGrath III wrote: Yeah but look at your statement below. I would agree with you even that I am a preferred Mac user except you had to end the following statement with an attack with words. Your attack states that anyone who isn't like you can't see beyond Steve's last keynote. This appears to be very much an attack. That's not exactly what I wrote. And what I ended with was Long live Apple! But an earnest communicator accepts responsibility for even perceptions, as clearer writing anticipates and avoids innacurate ones. Please accept my apologies for not expressing my feelings more clearly. It was not my intention to offend ayone who wants to see Apple succeed as much as I do. As an Apple customer, developer, and shareholder, their success is also mine. There are of course many types of Mac users, and I had tried to describe the only two types I know intimately because I have been each of them at different times. There are those who suggest Apple cannot make sometimes critical mistakes. I was one of these, and have been in MUGs with others of the same type. That such a type exists isn't something I invented. Don't shoot the messenger. And there are also those who question Apple from time to time, as Tog himself does. Only your best friend will tell you when you have salad on your teeth. Sometimes Apple listens, and when they do we all benefit. The last thing Apple needs is uncritical support, as that would only broaden the inevitable blind spots inherent in the human condition. Everyone makes mistakes, and through constructive feedback we improve. I appreciate yours, and will tune my writing accordingly. But there may be no stopping Tog. ;) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Yep, but how to get two buttons (and a scroll wheel) on my new i-Book? :-) Chipp On Jan 3, 2004, at 6:25 PM, Ken Ray wrote: The one-button mouse is (soon) dead! Long live Apple! In fact, I'm using a Microsoft (gasp!) two-button Wheel Mouse Optical USB mouse on my Mac and have been using two-button mice with Mac development ever since OS 9 was released... the nice thing for me is that I can do things one-handed instead of needing my second hand to push the Control key... :-) Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Richard, I didn't know you wrote the original thread. I was just reacting mid thread. Sorry. Thanks for your earnest reply. And I agree with you 100% as well. Tom On Jan 3, 2004, at 11:07 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Thomas J McGrath III wrote: Yeah but look at your statement below. I would agree with you even that I am a preferred Mac user except you had to end the following statement with an attack with words. Your attack states that anyone who isn't like you can't see beyond Steve's last keynote. This appears to be very much an attack. That's not exactly what I wrote. And what I ended with was Long live Apple! But an earnest communicator accepts responsibility for even perceptions, as clearer writing anticipates and avoids innacurate ones. Please accept my apologies for not expressing my feelings more clearly. It was not my intention to offend ayone who wants to see Apple succeed as much as I do. As an Apple customer, developer, and shareholder, their success is also mine. There are of course many types of Mac users, and I had tried to describe the only two types I know intimately because I have been each of them at different times. There are those who suggest Apple cannot make sometimes critical mistakes. I was one of these, and have been in MUGs with others of the same type. That such a type exists isn't something I invented. Don't shoot the messenger. And there are also those who question Apple from time to time, as Tog himself does. Only your best friend will tell you when you have salad on your teeth. Sometimes Apple listens, and when they do we all benefit. The last thing Apple needs is uncritical support, as that would only broaden the inevitable blind spots inherent in the human condition. Everyone makes mistakes, and through constructive feedback we improve. I appreciate yours, and will tune my writing accordingly. But there may be no stopping Tog. ;) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.1, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.1.2 Advanced Media Group Thomas J McGrath III 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 220 Drake Road, Bethel Park, PA 15102 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
OT Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Richard, Well said. I enjoyed reading the article as well. In fact, it echos something I've been talking about for awhile. I-Tunes is the 'BETAMAX' to the rest of the online Music 'VHS'. And those who invest in the 'beta' technology will end up not being able to use the scores of other hardware, software and media retail/online outlets for their music needs. While I applaud Apple for innovating the finest current hardware/software model for music distribution,IMHO, it's only a matter of a couple of years before they become an also-ran in this market-- unless they can provide some sort of standard which can be shared by other players, including DELL, HP, SONY, etc.. Too bad Apple isn't as innovative in business as they are in technology. Kind of reminds me of how great the original Mac was. I purchased one the first week and drug it to work with me at TI then Compaq (early days) *because* it was a product which allowed me to do industrial design on the computer-- something no other computer could do at the time. I stayed with it until Win95, when it became obvious that MS would soon have 90% of the features and 300% of the software -- at only 70% of the cost. Now, folks can do just about anything on either Mac or PC (and soon Linux). Computers are commodities. Choice is personal preference, not necessarily one of productivity and/or capability And for each report that says MacOS is easier, there's another one saying XP more efficient and Linux cheaper;-) I'm writing this on a Mac, too (I really like their Email client - seems better to me than Outlook) See you in San Francisco next week! -Chipp Hating Macs? On the contrary. In fact, I'm writing this on a Mac, as I have since 1987. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On 1/3/04 10:21 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: Yep, but how to get two buttons (and a scroll wheel) on my new i-Book? No sweat. Go to any computer store and look at Windows USB mice. Virtually all of them will work without any special Mac driver (the system driver does fine.) If you want more options than the system driver provides, install the (shareware) USB Overdrive extension. It works with virtually any USB device. You can find it at versiontracker.com. Yesterday I picked up a tiny little 3-button/scrollwheel USB mouse, intended for use with Windows laptops, on sale at CompUSA for ten bucks. Works fine on my Powerbook. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Jan 3, 2004, at 3:11 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Except, ironiclly, at Pixar, where they have more Linux machines than Macs. http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/10/28/pixarosx/index.php? redirect= 1073135312000 Pixar, WETA digital, and the like, are an exception because the Unix/Linux machines are a render wall; a bunch of rack mounted servers that just crank away rendering frames. Not really graphics workstations. Although I guess a lot of stuff like Maya, Blender, etc. is available on Linux and that will replace Macs. Hating Macs? On the contrary. In fact, I'm writing this on a Mac, as I have since 1987. Sorry- I don't know why I thought you were a Windows user all of a sudden :-) The one-button mouse is (soon) dead! Long live Apple! Thanks for your rant it was interesting. I think the hockey puck mouse must have been a cruel joke by some hardware designer at apple. Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com what a waste of thumbs that are opposable to make machines that are disposable -Ani DiFranco ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Jan 3, 2004, at 9:07 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: As fine as Macs are for creating print and video, last I heard, they only had a 3% marketshare for all computers. So, all those other computers are viewing on 'non-Mac' gamma settings. I'm with Richard and believe Apple should consider adopting the predominant gamma standard. The first thing I did when getting the i-Book was reset the gamma. I am not arguing with 97% making a de-facto standard. But I'm asking, if there is/was a good reason for the Mac's funky gamma, if it was born before the MS Windows PC gamma, and if it is a matter of principle that Mac's haven't switched to the predominant standard. I'm not a graphics professional- just curious. Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com what a waste of thumbs that are opposable to make machines that are disposable -Ani DiFranco ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Hi all, I ended up getting an iBook over the holidays to do some cross-platform development. Been awhile since I've used Macs for any length of time (they sure have changed;-0) Anyway, I spent a few hours today trying to track down a color issue and here's what I found out: If you are like me, you may use animated GIF's to create blinking lights, progress bars, etc.. And if you use ImageReady and Photoshop, you can create them easily so that the GIF overlays what's beneath it seamlessly. Your user will never 'see' the boundaries. But...there's a catch for cross-platform developers. Different images have native gamma correction built in, and this can create problems when combining GIFs, PNGs and JPGs. I've created a stack to demonstrate the issue, and offer some solutions on how to best solve it. Just type into your msg box and hit return: open stack URL http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/RunRev/GammaTest.rev; Please let me know (you Mac folk) if you know of other workarounds! best, Chipp Chipp Walters Altuit, inc. www.altuit.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Jan 2, 2004, at 4:51 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: open stack URL http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/RunRev/GammaTest.rev; Instead of adjust the screenGamma property to match what the PNG expects. as the TD says, is it possible to adjust the PNG data's gamma setting on the fly, and not touch the screenGamma property? Not knowing about the PNG format much, I donnow how hard it would be. Using JPG is of course not possible when requiring trnsparency, alpha channel, or non-lossy compression. BTW, did you try this to reset the display of the images, instead of go next; go next? put img bg1.jpg into img bg1.jpg put img bg1.png into img bg1.png put img bg1.bmp into img bg1.bmp It works for the PNG but broke the BMP for me. Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com what a waste of thumbs that are opposable to make machines that are disposable -Ani DiFranco ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Friday, January 2, 2004, at 05:10 PM, Alex Rice wrote: Instead of adjust the screenGamma property to match what the PNG expects. as the TD says, is it possible to adjust the PNG data's gamma setting on the fly, and not touch the screenGamma property? Not knowing about the PNG format much, I donnow how hard it would be. Yes. PNG is organized into chunks. The gamma chunk is simple and is not compressed or anything. (I haven't looked at Chipp's discussion topic, so evaluate this comment accordingly.) Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Alex, Don't know about if it's possible to change the gamma for the PNG. Even if it were possible, it would probably end up creating even more 'washed out' images on Macs or 'too dark' images on PC. Yep, I tried the put img x into img y and it rarely worked...so I just flipped a card. Didn't want to debug *that* at this time. I, too, use transparent images for interfaces. In fact, it's what ButtonGadget builds. But, I still need to be able to go cross platform with GIFs (the real problem here). -Chipp On Jan 2, 2004, at 6:10 PM, Alex Rice wrote: On Jan 2, 2004, at 4:51 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: open stack URL http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/RunRev/GammaTest.rev; Instead of adjust the screenGamma property to match what the PNG expects. as the TD says, is it possible to adjust the PNG data's gamma setting on the fly, and not touch the screenGamma property? Not knowing about the PNG format much, I donnow how hard it would be. Using JPG is of course not possible when requiring trnsparency, alpha channel, or non-lossy compression. BTW, did you try this to reset the display of the images, instead of go next; go next? put img bg1.jpg into img bg1.jpg put img bg1.png into img bg1.png put img bg1.bmp into img bg1.bmp It works for the PNG but broke the BMP for me. Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com what a waste of thumbs that are opposable to make machines that are disposable -Ani DiFranco ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Friday, January 2, 2004, at 04:51 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: I've created a stack to demonstrate the issue, and offer some solutions on how to best solve it. Just type into your msg box and hit return: open stack URL http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/RunRev/GammaTest.rev; Please let me know (you Mac folk) if you know of other workarounds! I don't know if BMP has a gamma. It is optional in the PNG. It might also have other related parameters that would be used instead. I can look at a hex dump and see if the PNG has one, but somebody else might have a utility that allows looking at that or fiddling with it. It might be that Revolution is ignoring the Gamma or handling it wrong. I suspect not, since there is a screenGamma and since a gamma is created when a PNG is created from an image object. It is worth looking into, though. It might be that the file has the more complicated screen parameters and Revolution does not handle those. It might be that the PNG does not have a Gamma. I would have thought Photoshop would have saved it. I'll see what my Mac Photoshop, does. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Jan 2, 2004, at 5:44 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: Alex, Don't know about if it's possible to change the gamma for the PNG. Even if it were possible, it would probably end up creating even more 'washed out' images on Macs or 'too dark' images on PC. Not sure... my overly simplistic understanding of graphics is that is you just the sRGB color space, then no worries! But that's probably naive :-) Here is a tutorial about Gamma in general and PNG in particular. http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/spec/1.2/PNG-DataRep.html#DR.Gamma- correction http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/spec/1.2/PNG-GammaAppendix.html Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com what a waste of thumbs that are opposable to make machines that are disposable -Ani DiFranco ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
I'm called to supper. I'll send what I have on the PNG. I'll have to calculate the gamma from the value field later. Unless someone else does it or has a better tool. Note that the value from text is not the same as the value from export. Maybe one is the one set and the other is recalculated. Dar text Length: 879 89504e470d0a1a0a000d4948445200500050080200017365 fa 0004 67414d41 -- gAMA afc8 -- value 37058ae9 001974455874536f6674776172 650041646f626520496d616765526561647971c9653c03014944415478da 626c6868601849002080981846180008a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180 001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e761 80001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e7 6180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011 e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a0 11e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608 a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e06 08a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e 0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a71 1e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a 711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e7618000 1a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180001a711e0608a011e76180 001a711e060820160825000610f68b172f7efcf8a1a0a0f0e0c1032097838303 2805148428038a7ff8f001223514014000313b383800290b0b0b474747494949 4b4b4b4d4dcd3367cee4e7e7333232023d262323e3eaea7ae1c205a057d3d3d3 b9b8b80c0d0d151515af5cb932143d0c10402c70d6f9f3e70f1c38008ccfc2c2 42090909a008d0f3274e9c802b888c8cdcb87123d0e7703590681f5a002080d0 f330d0336c6c6cc0240d49dbc09887a779a038d0b740365076faf4e943d1b740 00104088180626546062161313bb78f12230970245b66fdf0e4cc31036d0c3af 5ebd02328011ebe9e909491110ff0f2d001040080fdfbf7f1fe8014889052fbd 809e07e6ed0f6c0ba0b7818cfdfbf703fd0c2fe4861600082044928694bd 70df42003057f3f1f141643f7dfa0449e1c08000a6fc215a4a0304100b7e69a0 3f0f1e3c082c9381ece5cb972726269a9b9b03d98f1e3d1a8ae9190800028891 d4d396807918980a20197b28028000622155c3102d9ce10020c0002dc2a98a1f ccdbd649454e44ae426082 export PNG Length: 261 89504e470d0a1a0a000d4948445200500050080300b9cf02 9f 0004 67414d41 -- gAMA e5c83 -- value d932d66 002d504c54456868687979798b 8b8b7070708282829d9d9db0b0b0edededd9d9d9f7f7f7e3e3e3ffcfcfcf c3c3c3bababa938ca5b8008349444154789cedd1b11603210844d11150d1 c9e6ff3f774dbad46c97b99534efa002f2d79a99390c f03843b77270cc5c1b1cb08431e7ab1c1cf0155c7e82ab7fcef56063630ecbc6 33b7f28673f302833d6d23327b35789d3f0171cdb36173dba31afc0678ee9d98 6ff7f9541023118bccf223fe886773753744fa02b0ebf3f98649454e 44ae426082 export P6 Length: 19213 50360a38302038300a3235350a68686868686868686868686868686868686868 6868686868686868686868686868686868686868686868686868686868686868 etc. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On 1/2/04 3:51 PM, Chipp Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I ended up getting an iBook over the holidays to do some cross-platform development. Been awhile since I've used Macs for any length of time (they sure have changed;-0) Anyway, I spent a few hours today trying to track down a color issue and here's what I found out: If you are like me, you may use animated GIF's to create blinking lights, progress bars, etc.. And if you use ImageReady and Photoshop, you can create them easily so that the GIF overlays what's beneath it seamlessly. Your user will never 'see' the boundaries. But...there's a catch for cross-platform developers. Different images have native gamma correction built in, and this can create problems when combining GIFs, PNGs and JPGs. Chipp: An interesting observation about color, one I hadn't noticed before. I did a couple of quick tests over here and encountered the same issue with regard to PNG but not BMP. I'm at a slight disadvantage since I'm on a laptop at the moment with an LCD screen, but the test is here: go URL http://www.tactilemedia.com/colordemo1.rev; All but the PNG image appear to be the same color here. AFAIK, you should not see any difference between any of the images except apparently PNG. By any chance do you have Photoshop's/ImageReady's color management enabled which embeds color profiles within images? If so, then you should disable this for the purposes of creating images for on-screen and the Web (this feature is really only suitable for print work). In my own work, the only time I ever use PNG is when I need to show an image with variable translucency, or a photographic image that compresses better than with JPG; otherwise I use GIF and JPG most frequently. I have noticed that solid color regions and certain gradient patterns often compress a bit smaller using as GIF than as PNG so there's another possible reason to use the format. If you are running into a development obstacle with the image formats that is preventing you from creating what you want, feel free to run it by me off-list. I'd be happy to take a look and help if I can. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
Don't know about if it's possible to change the gamma for the PNG. Even if it were possible, it would probably end up creating even more 'washed out' images on Macs or 'too dark' images on PC. The following article provides one explanation as to what is going with PNGs. If the author's statements are valid, then apparently the problem with PNG display is universal. http://www.hut.fi/u/hsivonen/png-gamma.html Still, this shouldn't really pose any problem for Rev developers. In addition to the multiple graphic formats that we can employ, users will rarely have the opportunity to directly compare the appearance of a Mac stack with a Windows stack. And there are so many variables at play when releasing a stack to the masses that you're probably better off trying to cure the common cold than attempting to make your stack look perfect everywhere. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Friday, January 2, 2004, at 10:21 PM, Scott Rossi wrote: In addition to the multiple graphic formats that we can employ, users will rarely have the opportunity to directly compare the appearance of a Mac stack with a Windows stack. But his problem is a gif next to a png. Also, he has control over what uses it. A Revolution app. I wonder how Chipp's PNGs would look if the gamma was stripped. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On 1/2/04 9:37 PM, Dar Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In addition to the multiple graphic formats that we can employ, users will rarely have the opportunity to directly compare the appearance of a Mac stack with a Windows stack. But his problem is a gif next to a png. In case you missed it, I was responding to Chipp's statement about the appearance of his images: Don't know about if it's possible to change the gamma for the PNG. Even if it were possible, it would probably end up creating even more 'washed out' images on Macs or 'too dark' images on PC. As far as placing an animated GIF next to a PNG goes, Chipp himself provided one solution. Another solution I alluded to would be to employ an image format other than PNG. Or the reverse: use a series of PNGs displayed by script to replace the animated GIF. Another solution could be to build the GIF differently, eliminating as much unnecessary background as possible, so that only the animated portion of the GIF was visible against the PNG background. Of course, these solutions depend on the specific problem -- so far I've rarely seen as problem like this that couldn't be solved with a little ingenuity in building the image. I'm sure Chipp can manage these being the graphics guy he is. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interfaces: PC and MAC and the screenGamma property...
On Friday, January 2, 2004, at 11:05 PM, Scott Rossi wrote: But his problem is a gif next to a png. In case you missed it, I was responding to Chipp's statement about the appearance of his images: Don't know about if it's possible to change the gamma for the PNG. Even if it were possible, it would probably end up creating even more 'washed out' images on Macs or 'too dark' images on PC. Yikes! I missed it. Dar ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
