Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Alejandro Tejada]

Hi Mark,

GreatJob! :-D


Mark Wieder wrote:
> 
> Couldn't resist the challenge. I uploaded a Hollerith Card Script
> Editor to revOnline.
> 


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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Francis Nugent Dixon]

Hi from Paris,


Alejandro wrote



Always picked my curiosity to know what these
holes actually means... :-D


  and here you find it all  :>)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card#IBM_80_column_punch_card_format

Best Regards

-Francis

"Nothing should ever be done for the first time. But we did it every  
day !"



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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Mark Wieder]

stephen-

Friday, November 20, 2009, 12:08:25 PM, you wrote:

> This would be super-easy to do in Rev. 10 different ways.

Couldn't resist the challenge. I uploaded a Hollerith Card Script
Editor to revOnline.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net

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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[stephen barncard]

My personal introduction to computers was TTL hardware. Anything I learn has
to have some end goal or purpose.

 As my circuit boards got more and more complex, and wire wrapping was such
a pain just to lay out a little bit of stupid logic, that about 1975 I
started looking for a "better way" to control things. That led to a Z80
single board computer and Hex entry, then to an Apple ][ in assembly, basic
and compiled basic, to a PDP-11 running Forth, a Rockwell AIM-65 computer
running forth on ROM, back to Apple, then to a Mac, to hypercard, now
Rev

I've recently been going through a painful purge of my Apple ][ hardware,
starting with all the data on the 51/4" disks. There's a very nice
cross-platform system called ADT that allows a mac to be a server for an
Apple ][ client through several methods. Basically you can start with bare
iron and create an ADTPro system disk (it does pokes in the monitor very
slowly here) that eventually sets up a network between the two for transfers
at 115,000 baud! I didn't even know the Apple could do that. The resulting
files are .dsk images that an Emulator like Virtual ][ can read.

Anyway, mid-mission the old Apple ][ plus keyboard failed. I had all these
disks sitting around... Finally I bit the bullet and bought a very nice
Apple ][e and drive for about $60 on ebay, with shipping. Finished the job.
It takes about 30 seconds to copy a 140k disk.  Earlier ADT users may
remember it took a lot more time in years past. Very fine coding - Now all
rewritten in Java. It runs in ProDos but copies any format.

http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/

But I've had my fill of nostalgia, the small programming spaces, the awkward
typing, disk errors, bad keyboards, etc. This stuff was wonderful for it's
time, I made my living for years with it and I love my old machine dearly,
but 

   I so appreciate the tools I have now.

Anybody in the SF area that wants a few Apple disks copied before I tear
this rig down let me know

-
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev


2009/11/20 Alejandro Tejada 

>
> Actually, this is really enlightening, given that
> I do not live that time in computer history.
>
> I remember that when i was a teenager, two of my
> neighbors were University teachers who used
> punch cards in their classes. Somewhere in this
> house, there are some of these punch cards.
>
> Always picked my curiosity to know what these
> holes actually means... :-D
>
> This have potential to create a future assignment
> for Multimedia students.
>
> Alejandro
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-defined-path-to-learn-Rev-for-new-users-tp624612p632287.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Alejandro Tejada]

Actually, this is really enlightening, given that
I do not live that time in computer history.

I remember that when i was a teenager, two of my
neighbors were University teachers who used
punch cards in their classes. Somewhere in this
house, there are some of these punch cards.

Always picked my curiosity to know what these
holes actually means... :-D

This have potential to create a future assignment
for Multimedia students.  

Alejandro
-- 
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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Judy Perry]

Yeah and then we could show it to Alejandro's teacher population and get 
them all pumped up about scripting and...


nevermind...  :-P

Judy

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, stephen barncard wrote:


Here's a nice one online:
http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php

This would be super-easy to do in Rev. 10 different ways.

we could do this in ON-REV if we could get access to some of the graphics
and stack stuff, like the templates.

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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[stephen barncard]

Here's a nice one online:
http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php

This would be super-easy to do in Rev. 10 different ways.

we could do this in ON-REV if we could get access to some of the graphics
and stack stuff, like the templates.
-
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev


2009/11/20 Alejandro Tejada 

>
> Hi Francis,
>
> The way that you describe this task of early computer programming,
> it sounds like a mental and physical challenge.
>
> Did you know if there is some multimedia simulation of card
> punching programming, made with Flash, Director,
> Hypercard or Runrev?
>
> Alejandro
>
>
> Francis Nugent Dixon wrote:
> >
> > Hi from Paris,
> >
> > Stephen Barncard sent :
> >
> >> If one has ever had to work with punched cards
> >> (and I have not) genuinely
> >> deserves the title "hard core".
> >
> > Not only did I work with punched cards (and I think
> > there are more of you out there), but when the IBM026
> > and 029 card punches were not yet available, we used
> > the Hollerith key punch to punch our cards by hand.
> >
> > Thems were the good old days, when (if I remember
> > correctly, the left bracket was 12-0-1-8-9, that is
> > 5 holes in the same column. Needless to say, we often
> > made mistakes, but it took so long to punch a card, that
> > we used to stick the confetti back in the holes, and then
> > correct the cards. Obviously, after feeding the cards
> > through the reader, a few times, the wire brushes often
> > knocked out the confetti, and we got a "reader check".
> > Then we had to examine the card and decide what hole the
> > confetti had fallen out of !!
> >
> > And my VERY FIRST program on the IBM 1401 involved punching
> > up the whole program in machine code, including the bootstrap.
> > If you have never punched the command "Set character to word mark",
> > you have never really lived    . :>)
> >
> > Oh my God - Am I that old ?
> >
> > -Francis
> >
> > "Nothing should ever be done for the first time - but it often was !"
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-defined-path-to-learn-Rev-for-new-users-tp624612p628163.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Alejandro Tejada]

Hi Francis,

The way that you describe this task of early computer programming,
it sounds like a mental and physical challenge.

Did you know if there is some multimedia simulation of card
punching programming, made with Flash, Director,
Hypercard or Runrev?

Alejandro


Francis Nugent Dixon wrote:
> 
> Hi from Paris,
> 
> Stephen Barncard sent :
> 
>> If one has ever had to work with punched cards
>> (and I have not) genuinely
>> deserves the title "hard core".
> 
> Not only did I work with punched cards (and I think
> there are more of you out there), but when the IBM026
> and 029 card punches were not yet available, we used
> the Hollerith key punch to punch our cards by hand.
> 
> Thems were the good old days, when (if I remember
> correctly, the left bracket was 12-0-1-8-9, that is
> 5 holes in the same column. Needless to say, we often
> made mistakes, but it took so long to punch a card, that
> we used to stick the confetti back in the holes, and then
> correct the cards. Obviously, after feeding the cards
> through the reader, a few times, the wire brushes often
> knocked out the confetti, and we got a "reader check".
> Then we had to examine the card and decide what hole the
> confetti had fallen out of !!
> 
> And my VERY FIRST program on the IBM 1401 involved punching
> up the whole program in machine code, including the bootstrap.
> If you have never punched the command "Set character to word mark",
> you have never really lived. :>)
> 
> Oh my God - Am I that old ?
> 
> -Francis
> 
> "Nothing should ever be done for the first time - but it often was !"
> 

-- 
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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Alejandro Tejada]

Hi Judy and Jim,

Many thanks for replying this request.

>From my experience, software developers are harder
to convince to try RunRev than schools teachers.

Actually, my fellow teachers, do not teach software
development. They are not developers themselves
nor have previous experience with Computer languages,
but some of them (not all), have received training for
Microsoft Office Programs and Adobe Creative Suite.

Look, for example, these websites with information about
Microsoft and Adobe Education programs:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/school/FX102781621033.aspx
http://www.adobe.com/education/products/creativesuite/faq.html

It's unfair to ask Runrev to devote the same kind of resources
that Adobe or Microsoft employs in their education programs.

Just like Judy noticed, teachers are not too eager to learn
programming to use a new software. I could not hide of them
the fact that many actions that require scripting, could be
achieved with a point and click interface... if that interface
already existed.

My recommendation, to many of them, is to create a group
of students that help in the task of elaborating educational
content for their classes. In fact, 26 years ago, when i
started in High School, there was such group in the school
where i studied. The difference is that back then, we had
no computers or color printers, but Overhead projectors,
cardboards and acrylic paint.

Alejandro
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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Mark Swindell]

In my experience getting teachers over 30 to understand even basic computer 
functions is difficult.  Getting any but a small fraction of teachers to want 
to learn to program is more like leading a horse to the edge of the Grand 
Canyon than leading it to water.  :)  This includes the most tech-savvy 
educators; even tech trainers.

Mark

On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:14 PM, Jim Bufalini wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Previously, i have wrote about [my fellow teachers] that i have [invited to
> use RevMedia] in their classes.
> 
> If you read those comments, you had learn that they expect to receive
> training from the source, from Runrev, not unlike Microsoft and Adobe offers
> with their [certification programs].
> 
> The idea of learning on their own, do not attract too many of them. I know
> that this is the result of previous experiences in [trainings for other
> softwares]...

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Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Francis Nugent Dixon]

Hi from Paris,

Stephen Barncard sent :


If one has ever had to work with punched cards
(and I have not) genuinely
deserves the title "hard core".


Not only did I work with punched cards (and I think
there are more of you out there), but when the IBM026
and 029 card punches were not yet available, we used
the Hollerith key punch to punch our cards by hand.

Thems were the good old days, when (if I remember
correctly, the left bracket was 12-0-1-8-9, that is
5 holes in the same column. Needless to say, we often
made mistakes, but it took so long to punch a card, that
we used to stick the confetti back in the holes, and then
correct the cards. Obviously, after feeding the cards
through the reader, a few times, the wire brushes often
knocked out the confetti, and we got a "reader check".
Then we had to examine the card and decide what hole the
confetti had fallen out of !!

And my VERY FIRST program on the IBM 1401 involved punching
up the whole program in machine code, including the bootstrap.
If you have never punched the command "Set character to word mark",
you have never really lived. :>)

Oh my God - Am I that old ?

-Francis

"Nothing should ever be done for the first time - but it often was !"


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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Jim Bufalini]

> > As to teaching kids, you'll have to speak to my wife who is a
> "certified" K
> > through 12 and special needs school teacher. ;-) She was previously,
> for 18
> > years, a Systems Engineer with IBM in charge of Education Systems and
> > installing computers in the classroom here.
> 
> --Nice!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Judy

For the record, I should clarify what I said about my wife. ;-) I should
have said, towards the end of her career with IBM she worked with schools
and computers in the classroom. When she started with them, there weren't
even PCs, much less in schools. ;-) It was all mainframes. Most of her time
with them she worked with these and then mid-sized computers. But, working
with schools is what ultimately led her to teaching kids, which she loves.

Aloha from Hawaii,

Jim Bufalini



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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Judy Perry]

Hi Jim,


If you spoke with him for 30-minutes yesterday, then you probably have not
missed anything and I am the one who misunderstood his post. ;-)


--Well, to clarify, it was a text-based chat as opposed to a phone-based 
one, so I might well have missed something! :-)



None the less, and in light of what is now my obvious misunderstanding
aside, it did cause me to think of when I first started with Rev and as I
said in my post:

"... But you raise an interesting point... assuming there are programmers
who know how to program in other more traditional programming languages...
you need to focus on the lay of the land first... this applies to not just
your fellow teachers, but all those we expect to embrace revlets and
revTalk..."


--That's why I thought it was neat that Mark Wieder did his little VB <--> 
Rev cheat-sheet in the new screensteps lessons.



I stand by this, even if it wasn't what Alejandro was asking. And in writing
my "misguided" response, it made me realize that this is probably the single
most barrier to mass adoption of revlets by programmers of other languages.
However, it is certainly not an insurmountable barrier, and in fact, a very
addressable one.


--Indeed.  We need more cheat-sheets for those folks!


As to teaching kids, you'll have to speak to my wife who is a "certified" K
through 12 and special needs school teacher. ;-) She was previously, for 18
years, a Systems Engineer with IBM in charge of Education Systems and
installing computers in the classroom here.


--Nice!

Best,

Judy

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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Jim Bufalini]

Judy Perry wrote:

> I went back and re-read Alejandro's post and that is most definitely
> NOT
> the impression it gives me.  I also chatted with him for a good half
> hour
> or more yesterday and nothing in that conversation suggested that these
> teachers already know how to program using another
> language/environment.
> 
> For example, he repeatedly makes the point that they are expecting Rev
> to
> look like and have similar capabilities to a typical Office suite of
> programs (which is about all teacher ed candidates tend to be taught).
> He
> says they look at the volume of documentation and are horrified,
> whereas
> probably most of us who already use Rev to varying degrees wish there
> was
> even more (for example, it was recently suggested to me to use the
> selectedLine for a tabbed button... I checked the docs and they only
> suggest that selectedLine works for fields, not buttons, but it did,
> indeed work).
> 
> Can you point me to what I missed (re Alejandro)?

Hi Judy,

If you spoke with him for 30-minutes yesterday, then you probably have not
missed anything and I am the one who misunderstood his post. ;-) In my
defense, when I read (brackets added for emphasis by me):

-
Hi all,

Previously, i have wrote about [my fellow teachers] that i have [invited to
use RevMedia] in their classes.

If you read those comments, you had learn that they expect to receive
training from the source, from Runrev, not unlike Microsoft and Adobe offers
with their [certification programs].

The idea of learning on their own, do not attract too many of them. I know
that this is the result of previous experiences in [trainings for other
softwares]...
-

I read it to mean he wanted to teach his fellow teachers (not kids) how to
program in rev and I took his "previous experiences in trainings for other
softwares" to mean other software languages and not how to "use" office
programs.

And, in Alejandro's defense, I fully understand he is not writing in his
native language.

None the less, and in light of what is now my obvious misunderstanding
aside, it did cause me to think of when I first started with Rev and as I
said in my post: 

"... But you raise an interesting point... assuming there are programmers
who know how to program in other more traditional programming languages...
you need to focus on the lay of the land first... this applies to not just
your fellow teachers, but all those we expect to embrace revlets and
revTalk..."

I stand by this, even if it wasn't what Alejandro was asking. And in writing
my "misguided" response, it made me realize that this is probably the single
most barrier to mass adoption of revlets by programmers of other languages.
However, it is certainly not an insurmountable barrier, and in fact, a very
addressable one.

As to teaching kids, you'll have to speak to my wife who is a "certified" K
through 12 and special needs school teacher. ;-) She was previously, for 18
years, a Systems Engineer with IBM in charge of Education Systems and
installing computers in the classroom here. 

Aloha from Hawaii,

Jim Bufalini



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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Judy Perry]

Hi Jim,

I went back and re-read Alejandro's post and that is most definitely NOT 
the impression it gives me.  I also chatted with him for a good half hour 
or more yesterday and nothing in that conversation suggested that these 
teachers already know how to program using another language/environment.


For example, he repeatedly makes the point that they are expecting Rev to 
look like and have similar capabilities to a typical Office suite of 
programs (which is about all teacher ed candidates tend to be taught).  He 
says they look at the volume of documentation and are horrified, whereas 
probably most of us who already use Rev to varying degrees wish there was 
even more (for example, it was recently suggested to me to use the 
selectedLine for a tabbed button... I checked the docs and they only 
suggest that selectedLine works for fields, not buttons, but it did, 
indeed work).


Can you point me to what I missed (re Alejandro)?

:-)

Judy

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Jim Bufalini wrote:


Hi Judy,

Your points are all well taken and true - for kids. But if you read
Alejandro's original post, you will see that he is designing a course
outline for his fellow teachers who already program in more traditional
language(s), which one or ones I don't know, and he is wanting to "convert"
them over to rev. This is the issue I was addressing and why I talked about
the importance of addressing the paradigm shift first.

Aloha from Hawaii,

Jim Bufalini

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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Jim Bufalini]

Hi Judy,

Your points are all well taken and true - for kids. But if you read
Alejandro's original post, you will see that he is designing a course
outline for his fellow teachers who already program in more traditional
language(s), which one or ones I don't know, and he is wanting to "convert"
them over to rev. This is the issue I was addressing and why I talked about
the importance of addressing the paradigm shift first.

Aloha from Hawaii,

Jim Bufalini



> 
> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Jim Bufalini wrote:
> > It seems to me that your are trying to lead horses to water, who are
> neither
> > thirsty nor want to drink. ;-)
> 
> But the staggering amount of public funds that have been dumped into
> computers in the classroom requires that they really ought to either
> get
> thirsty really quickly or be force-fed the water.
> 
> Here's a sad, sobering read:
> 
> http://www.hull.ac.uk/php/edskas/Cuban%20article%20-%20oversold.pdf
> 
> Yes, it was written some time ago, but I've not really seen any studies
> that indicate that things have changed for the better.  In my
> children's 4
> years in the public school system, there were a number of computers
> present in each classroom.  Mostly they never got used.  Or, if they
> did
> get used, it was for something completely stupid, like reading a story
> online.  My niece and nephew, in the third grade, were required to use
> PowerPoint to present their vocabulary and spelling words.  Yet another
> stupid use of computers in education.  I've seen school district
> technology implementation plans for using computers to teach math --
> how?
> Have the students type up word problems and type up the answers.  DUMB
> DUMB DUMB!
> 
> Or, in the case of I believe it may have been LA Unified, they
> forced the kids to use math education software that was SO BAD that
> hundreds of math educators and mathematicians signed an online petition
> saying that it was the worst educational software they'd ever seen.
> So,
> why was the school using it?  It had been somebody's pet project and
> the
> district was threatened with the loss of NSF funds if they didn't use
> the
> software, which the NSF had underwritten.
> 
> My children's first grade teacher, when I asked her about the computers
> (she's the one who had them reading stories online), and I made a joke
> about PowerPoint, her response was "gee, I wish I knew how to do that
> in
> class!"  I wanted to weep.  PowerPoint.  For 6 year olds.  When there
> was
> so much more that was possible to do with computers in education MORE
> THAN
> TWENTY YEARS AGO.
> 
> > But you raise an interesting point. We talk about the world embracing
> > revTalk and revlets because the language is so easy. And, indeed it
> is. But,
> > when I think back to when I first found rev, the major paradigm shift
> was
> > not the language, but the concept of stacks and cards and how this
> equated
> > to a windowed GUI. And, had I not had 15 years of extensive
> programming
> > experience in another rev, called Revelation, which is PICK on the PC
> and
> > which is very, very similar to rev in that it is a scripting language
> with
> > chunks, no variable typing, compiling is at the individual script
> level, so
> > you run and program at the same time, and many, many other
> similarities, I
> > would have also probably had to go through a paradigm shift with the
> concept
> > of chunks and where to put or organize scripts.
> 
> --And, of course, this is exactly why it is perhaps a better audience
> for
> using this particular program, because cards and stacks of cards are
> things they already understand from the real world whereas typed data
> and
> where to put your semi-colons and how to indent your curlicue brackets
> are
> not.  They have no pre-existing models by which to be confounded.
> 
> > The leap is in the structure and not the language. So while I think
> your
> > "course outline" rightfully starts out with stacks and cards, I
> think, more
> > than how to create, the focus in the beginning needs to be on the
> "theory"
> > of stacks and cards and how these equate to the structures they are
> already
> > familiar with.
> 
> --That would be none.  And none is a good thing ;-)
> 
> > Next, needs to be the theory of chunks and variables and then
> followed by
> > theory of scripting and where to place blocks of code and what makes
> this
> > all work or ties it all together, which is the message path. Also,
> before
> > you get into objects you need o cover the theory behind commands and
> > functions and how, in general, scripts are organized.
> 
> --At this point, they've either run screaming to the hills to fire up
> PowerPoint or their eyes are glazed over or they're asleep.
> Guaranteed.
> They need short, sweet project-based learning that allows them to
> immediately begin using whatever little they've learned to date.
> 
> > I think without making this paradigm shift first, a programmer used
> to top
> > down or OOP programming will j

RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Judy Perry]

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Jim Bufalini wrote:

It seems to me that your are trying to lead horses to water, who are neither
thirsty nor want to drink. ;-)


But the staggering amount of public funds that have been dumped into 
computers in the classroom requires that they really ought to either get 
thirsty really quickly or be force-fed the water.


Here's a sad, sobering read:

http://www.hull.ac.uk/php/edskas/Cuban%20article%20-%20oversold.pdf

Yes, it was written some time ago, but I've not really seen any studies 
that indicate that things have changed for the better.  In my children's 4 
years in the public school system, there were a number of computers 
present in each classroom.  Mostly they never got used.  Or, if they did 
get used, it was for something completely stupid, like reading a story 
online.  My niece and nephew, in the third grade, were required to use 
PowerPoint to present their vocabulary and spelling words.  Yet another 
stupid use of computers in education.  I've seen school district 
technology implementation plans for using computers to teach math -- how? 
Have the students type up word problems and type up the answers.  DUMB 
DUMB DUMB!


Or, in the case of I believe it may have been LA Unified, they 
forced the kids to use math education software that was SO BAD that 
hundreds of math educators and mathematicians signed an online petition 
saying that it was the worst educational software they'd ever seen.  So, 
why was the school using it?  It had been somebody's pet project and the 
district was threatened with the loss of NSF funds if they didn't use the 
software, which the NSF had underwritten.


My children's first grade teacher, when I asked her about the computers 
(she's the one who had them reading stories online), and I made a joke 
about PowerPoint, her response was "gee, I wish I knew how to do that in 
class!"  I wanted to weep.  PowerPoint.  For 6 year olds.  When there was 
so much more that was possible to do with computers in education MORE THAN 
TWENTY YEARS AGO.



But you raise an interesting point. We talk about the world embracing
revTalk and revlets because the language is so easy. And, indeed it is. But,
when I think back to when I first found rev, the major paradigm shift was
not the language, but the concept of stacks and cards and how this equated
to a windowed GUI. And, had I not had 15 years of extensive programming
experience in another rev, called Revelation, which is PICK on the PC and
which is very, very similar to rev in that it is a scripting language with
chunks, no variable typing, compiling is at the individual script level, so
you run and program at the same time, and many, many other similarities, I
would have also probably had to go through a paradigm shift with the concept
of chunks and where to put or organize scripts.


--And, of course, this is exactly why it is perhaps a better audience for 
using this particular program, because cards and stacks of cards are 
things they already understand from the real world whereas typed data and 
where to put your semi-colons and how to indent your curlicue brackets are 
not.  They have no pre-existing models by which to be confounded.



The leap is in the structure and not the language. So while I think your
"course outline" rightfully starts out with stacks and cards, I think, more
than how to create, the focus in the beginning needs to be on the "theory"
of stacks and cards and how these equate to the structures they are already
familiar with.


--That would be none.  And none is a good thing ;-)


Next, needs to be the theory of chunks and variables and then followed by
theory of scripting and where to place blocks of code and what makes this
all work or ties it all together, which is the message path. Also, before
you get into objects you need o cover the theory behind commands and
functions and how, in general, scripts are organized.


--At this point, they've either run screaming to the hills to fire up 
PowerPoint or their eyes are glazed over or they're asleep.  Guaranteed. 
They need short, sweet project-based learning that allows them to 
immediately begin using whatever little they've learned to date.



I think without making this paradigm shift first, a programmer used to top
down or OOP programming will just feel like a stranger in a strange land and
will not "hear" your lessons on buttons and fields because he will be
sitting there still trying to get his bearings. So, I think you need focus
on the lay of the land first. Once a programmer has this down pat, the rest
is easy and almost doesn't have to be taught because there is so much
documentation that can easily be looked up for syntax and details.


--Here's the problem:  Teachers do not want to be turned into programmers. 
Who cares if they do in 15 lines what you'd do in 3?  Admire your 
elegantly-crafted 3 lines, certainly.  Laugh at my 20, certainly (well, 
okay, laugh discretely).  But, at the end of the day, I'm pleased

RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Jim Bufalini]

Hi Stephan and Francis,

> If one has ever had to work with punched cards (and I have not)
> genuinely
> deserves the title "hard core". That stuff was so boring in the 60s
> that it
> drove me away from the field.

I did as a teenager in high school on a summer job (circa 1968). ;-) I had 
actually forgotten this until just now.

> How did anything get done?

Veeerrryyy slowly as you kept watching the clock for it to hit 5:00 pm. ;-)

> -
> Stephen Barncard
> San Francisco
> http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev
> 
> 
> 2009/11/19 Francis Nugent Dixon 
> 
> > Hi from Paris,
> >



> > and came out winning (and not whining !!)

Clever. I like this. I am going to steal it! ;-)

> > Then the question arises - Are there any traditional
> > programmers left ? - It MAY be a dying breed.

Almost any language that is not of the xtalk variety, such as C++, .net, Visual 
Basic, etc. is "traditional" compared to revTalk and there are more of these 
types of programmers than ever before.

Aloha from Hawaii,

Jim Bufalini

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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[stephen barncard]

If one has ever had to work with punched cards (and I have not) genuinely
deserves the title "hard core". That stuff was so boring in the 60s that it
drove me away from the field.

How did anything get done?
-
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev


2009/11/19 Francis Nugent Dixon 

> Hi from Paris,
>
> I think Jim has it all sown up.
>
> From: "Jim Bufalini" 
>
>
>  So, I think you need focus
>> on the lay of the land first.
>>
>
> I went through many languages from 1401 Autocoder,
> through Fortran, through Cobol, through 360 Assembler,
> and then through PL/1. I was young and capable of
> evolving.
>
> Hypercard (at the age of 45) was a shock, and Revolution
> at 60, was a bigger shock. But I took the blows, and
> came out winning (and not whining !!)
>
> The developments of Revolution (revlets, revtalk,
> On-Rev, shake the traditional programmer, but you
> have to go with the flow, or sink into oblivion.
>
> Then the question arises - Are there any traditional
> programmers left ? - It MAY be a dying breed.
>
> Best Regards
>
> -Francis
>
> "Nothing should ever be done for the first time"
>
>
>
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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Francis Nugent Dixon]

Hi from Paris,

I think Jim has it all sown up.

From: "Jim Bufalini" 


So, I think you need focus
on the lay of the land first.


I went through many languages from 1401 Autocoder,
through Fortran, through Cobol, through 360 Assembler,
and then through PL/1. I was young and capable of
evolving.

Hypercard (at the age of 45) was a shock, and Revolution
at 60, was a bigger shock. But I took the blows, and
came out winning (and not whining !!)

The developments of Revolution (revlets, revtalk,
On-Rev, shake the traditional programmer, but you
have to go with the flow, or sink into oblivion.

Then the question arises - Are there any traditional
programmers left ? - It MAY be a dying breed.

Best Regards

-Francis

"Nothing should ever be done for the first time"


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[Fr][En]Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Dom]

René Micout  wrote:

> Hello !
> I read that the implementation of SheepSaver was tricky...
> What about that ?
> René
> 
> Bonjour,
> J'ai lu que la mise en œuvre de SheepSaver était délicate...
> Qu'en est-il exactement ?

bon je mets la balise bilingue 
"you may encounter french beyond this limit" ;-))

ce n'est pas le sauveur de moutons, mais le raseur de moutons ;-)
it doesn't Save Sheep, but Shaves them ;-)

trève de plaisanterie
enough kidding

oui, j'ai eu du mal à installer SheepShaver -- en fait ça bloquait à
chaque fois sur "Mac OS ROM" qui n'était pas reconnue comme une ROM
valide (subtil, il faut un vrai disque "Mac OS" et pas seulement le CD
d'installation, qui ne marche qu'avec la machine qui est vendue avec*)

installing SheepShaver was rather daunting
Mac OS ROM was not recognized
you must have a "real" Mac OS disc, not a simple "install" disc*

et puis, le version de SheepShaver n'était pas la bonne non plus, au
départ SheepShaver est "prévu" pour les machines Intel -- et j'ai un
PowerPC G5 !

the current SheepShaver version was not good for PPC Macs

cerise sur le gâteau, SheepShaver marchait bien avec Tiger, mais avait
des vapeurs avec Leopard : tout pour plaire, quoi !

SheepShaver had some problems with Leopard

et, subitement, l'autre jour, à mon énième tentative, je charge une
version de SheepShaver qui est "garantie" marcher sur PPC, et je suis
pas à pas la doc, trouvée sur le même site :



and suddenly that worked with a new version of SheepShaver!

j'installe comme décrit le System avec un CD Apple (Mac OS 8.6)... et ça
marche !!

j'ai pu lancer HyperCard, et d'autres applis "legacy" -- pour
m'apercevoir que des fichiers ne sont pas reconnus (erreur -51), et que
'installation est instable ;->

I launched HyperCard, and other legacy apps -- but a number of files are
not recognized (-51 error), and the System is instable

* en fait ce n'est pas absolu, mais je simplifie
not absolutely

Voilà [bilingue] ;-)


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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[René Micout]

Hello !
I read that the implementation of SheepSaver was tricky...
What about that ?
René

Bonjour,
J'ai lu que la mise en œuvre de SheepSaver était délicate...
Qu'en est-il exactement ?
René


Le 19 nov. 09 à 14:04, Dom a écrit :

I installed at least SheepShaver*

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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Jim Bufalini]

lity to this level that should be carried to others levels:
> The ability of making clear and understable reports of failures or
> malfunction of stacks to their authors, using screenshots and
> written reports. This is really important and should be so easy, that
> do not become a burden.)
> 
> The next two levels Typing and Painting allow the user to add or modify
> written and graphic information. The last two levels are Authoring
> and Scripting.
> 
> (My comment:
> The Authoring level requires very good tutorials about
> each part of Rev interface, because, as i wrote before, many Teachers
> expect to take advantage of their experience using Office Software,
> while
> they learn to use Rev. In fact, editing text in Rev seems (to many of
> them)
> really "primitive", because they compare this task with their
> counterpart
> in other programs. Rev needs to add menu items for common text
> transformation functions like Uppercase or Lowercase, Sentence Case,
> bulleted list, etc. or an accessible plug-in method to add them to a
> palette.
> 
> My approach to tackle this fear to authoring have been teaching them
> first:
> 1) how to create a stack
> 2) how to create cards (i told them that these are pages...)
> 3) how to navigate between cards (and their visual effect transitions)
> 4) how to change stack and cards properties (size, background colors,
> etc. This part serves to teach them about inheritance of properties.)
> 5) how to create fields, buttons, image canvas (yes, if you could paint
> on them is an image canvas), vector graphics, etc.
> 6) Changing key attributes of these objects (Some key attributes, not
> all)
> 6) how to import text, images and graphics.
> 7) how to hyperlink (text hyper linking should be a lot easier for
> novices)
> 8) how to show and hide controls (Now they learn that all these objects
> are called controls inside RevMedia)
> 9) how to group controls and show them in different cards
> 10) Optimizing and reducing the Size of stack content.
> 
> Final Project: Choose one of the Gutenberg Project ebooks and
> convert many of their chapters in a stack that shows concepts
> like: multiple cards, hyperlinks, text formatting, optimal use of
> images,
> visual effects transitions, groups placed in multiple cards, use of
> colors, textures and blends.
> 
> This is my what i want to teach them to learn authoring in
> RevMedia. Did i miss some important points (that they should
> learn) in previous description?
> 
> About reaching the Scripting Level, i could tell you the reactions that
> i have observed when i show them five binders of printed documentation
> from Rev dictionaries and other materials. (Notice that i have not
> printed
> all documentation available.)
> 
> My favorite remark: "Do you actually expect that i learn all this to
> use
> this program?"
> 
> Obviously the answer is no, but i bet that this is the reaction of many
> when they learn about the extension of the revTalk language.
> 
> I believe that they should learn to comment and debug other
> people's code, while they start learning to write their own handlers.
> 
> By any chance, Have you seen the expression of fear when a newbie
> choose "Quit" from the script editor and the whole program closes?
> (He was expecting to "Quit" only the task that he was doing, that is,
> quit scripting a control in the stack)
> 
> I believe that we could make a stack that "guides" newbies in this task
> of commenting other people code.
> 
> I would like to read comments on the Authoring part, because
> this is the topic of the tutorials i am working now.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your comments!
> 
> Alejandro
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-
> defined-path-to-learn-Rev-for-new-users-tp623008p623008.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Dom]

René Micout  wrote:

> I started with HyperCard in 1987 and gradually I made progress, it  
> took time because it's not my job (and I have neither received any  
> training in computers or programming), but satisfaction is so great  
> when you reach the goal you had set (even if the first solution found
> is not the best).

C'est un peu pareil pour moi :-)
je suis enfin arrivé à installer SheepShaver*, et j'ai "redécouvert" des
piles HC que j'avais écrites en ... 1989 (bon anniversaire !)

So me too :-)
I installed at least SheepShaver*, and "rediscovered" also stacks I
wrote back to ... 1989 (good anniversary!)


* c'était pas de la tarte, et ça fonctionne couci-couça
* not very easy, it works not very well


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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[René Micout]

Le 17 nov. 09 à 21:22, Alejandro Tejada a écrit :

This training should be offered in teacher's native language.  
Although, revTalk should be keep
as an English-like programming language, without trying to  
translate commands, functions, handlers,
messages and tokens to another languages. (Different of Apple  
Computer, that actually localized

HyperTalk to many languages)


It was not a good thing (the translation of HyperCard), the  
difference between me (french) and an english or american that's  
RevTalk is not "english" language but "programming" language and it  
is an advantage that RevTalk is not in french, there is no (almost)  
confusion between RevTalk (command, functions, etc.) and my part of  
code..



Thanks in advance for your comments!


For the rest I have no comment, I am a curious guy and I have a  
little trouble understanding people who lack curiosity...
I started with HyperCard in 1987 and gradually I made progress, it  
took time because it's not my job (and I have neither received any  
training in computers or programming), but satisfaction is so great  
when you reach the goal you had set (even if the first solution found  
is not the best).


Bons souvenirs de Paris
René


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Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

[Alejandro Tejada]

that is,
quit scripting a control in the stack)

I believe that we could make a stack that "guides" newbies in this task
of commenting other people code.

I would like to read comments on the Authoring part, because
this is the topic of the tutorials i am working now.

Thanks in advance for your comments!

Alejandro

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View this message in context: 
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Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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