Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Hi from Paris, Alejandro wrote Always picked my curiosity to know what these holes actually means... :-D and here you find it all :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card#IBM_80_column_punch_card_format Best Regards -Francis Nothing should ever be done for the first time. But we did it every day ! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Hi Mark, GreatJob! :-D Mark Wieder wrote: Couldn't resist the challenge. I uploaded a Hollerith Card Script Editor to revOnline. -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-defined-path-to-learn-Rev-for-new-users-tp624612p718253.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
As to teaching kids, you'll have to speak to my wife who is a certified K through 12 and special needs school teacher. ;-) She was previously, for 18 years, a Systems Engineer with IBM in charge of Education Systems and installing computers in the classroom here. --Nice! Best, Judy For the record, I should clarify what I said about my wife. ;-) I should have said, towards the end of her career with IBM she worked with schools and computers in the classroom. When she started with them, there weren't even PCs, much less in schools. ;-) It was all mainframes. Most of her time with them she worked with these and then mid-sized computers. But, working with schools is what ultimately led her to teaching kids, which she loves. Aloha from Hawaii, Jim Bufalini ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
In my experience getting teachers over 30 to understand even basic computer functions is difficult. Getting any but a small fraction of teachers to want to learn to program is more like leading a horse to the edge of the Grand Canyon than leading it to water. :) This includes the most tech-savvy educators; even tech trainers. Mark On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:14 PM, Jim Bufalini wrote: Hi all, Previously, i have wrote about [my fellow teachers] that i have [invited to use RevMedia] in their classes. If you read those comments, you had learn that they expect to receive training from the source, from Runrev, not unlike Microsoft and Adobe offers with their [certification programs]. The idea of learning on their own, do not attract too many of them. I know that this is the result of previous experiences in [trainings for other softwares]... ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Hi Judy and Jim, Many thanks for replying this request. From my experience, software developers are harder to convince to try RunRev than schools teachers. Actually, my fellow teachers, do not teach software development. They are not developers themselves nor have previous experience with Computer languages, but some of them (not all), have received training for Microsoft Office Programs and Adobe Creative Suite. Look, for example, these websites with information about Microsoft and Adobe Education programs: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/school/FX102781621033.aspx http://www.adobe.com/education/products/creativesuite/faq.html It's unfair to ask Runrev to devote the same kind of resources that Adobe or Microsoft employs in their education programs. Just like Judy noticed, teachers are not too eager to learn programming to use a new software. I could not hide of them the fact that many actions that require scripting, could be achieved with a point and click interface... if that interface already existed. My recommendation, to many of them, is to create a group of students that help in the task of elaborating educational content for their classes. In fact, 26 years ago, when i started in High School, there was such group in the school where i studied. The difference is that back then, we had no computers or color printers, but Overhead projectors, cardboards and acrylic paint. Alejandro -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-defined-path-to-learn-Rev-for-new-users-tp623008p624788.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Hi Francis, The way that you describe this task of early computer programming, it sounds like a mental and physical challenge. Did you know if there is some multimedia simulation of card punching programming, made with Flash, Director, Hypercard or Runrev? Alejandro Francis Nugent Dixon wrote: Hi from Paris, Stephen Barncard sent : If one has ever had to work with punched cards (and I have not) genuinely deserves the title hard core. Not only did I work with punched cards (and I think there are more of you out there), but when the IBM026 and 029 card punches were not yet available, we used the Hollerith key punch to punch our cards by hand. Thems were the good old days, when (if I remember correctly, the left bracket was 12-0-1-8-9, that is 5 holes in the same column. Needless to say, we often made mistakes, but it took so long to punch a card, that we used to stick the confetti back in the holes, and then correct the cards. Obviously, after feeding the cards through the reader, a few times, the wire brushes often knocked out the confetti, and we got a reader check. Then we had to examine the card and decide what hole the confetti had fallen out of !! And my VERY FIRST program on the IBM 1401 involved punching up the whole program in machine code, including the bootstrap. If you have never punched the command Set character to word mark, you have never really lived. :) Oh my God - Am I that old ? -Francis Nothing should ever be done for the first time - but it often was ! -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-defined-path-to-learn-Rev-for-new-users-tp624612p628163.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Here's a nice one online: http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php This would be super-easy to do in Rev. 10 different ways. we could do this in ON-REV if we could get access to some of the graphics and stack stuff, like the templates. - Stephen Barncard San Francisco http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev 2009/11/20 Alejandro Tejada capellan2...@gmail.com Hi Francis, The way that you describe this task of early computer programming, it sounds like a mental and physical challenge. Did you know if there is some multimedia simulation of card punching programming, made with Flash, Director, Hypercard or Runrev? Alejandro Francis Nugent Dixon wrote: Hi from Paris, Stephen Barncard sent : If one has ever had to work with punched cards (and I have not) genuinely deserves the title hard core. Not only did I work with punched cards (and I think there are more of you out there), but when the IBM026 and 029 card punches were not yet available, we used the Hollerith key punch to punch our cards by hand. Thems were the good old days, when (if I remember correctly, the left bracket was 12-0-1-8-9, that is 5 holes in the same column. Needless to say, we often made mistakes, but it took so long to punch a card, that we used to stick the confetti back in the holes, and then correct the cards. Obviously, after feeding the cards through the reader, a few times, the wire brushes often knocked out the confetti, and we got a reader check. Then we had to examine the card and decide what hole the confetti had fallen out of !! And my VERY FIRST program on the IBM 1401 involved punching up the whole program in machine code, including the bootstrap. If you have never punched the command Set character to word mark, you have never really lived. :) Oh my God - Am I that old ? -Francis Nothing should ever be done for the first time - but it often was ! -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-defined-path-to-learn-Rev-for-new-users-tp624612p628163.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Yeah and then we could show it to Alejandro's teacher population and get them all pumped up about scripting and... nevermind... :-P Judy On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, stephen barncard wrote: Here's a nice one online: http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php This would be super-easy to do in Rev. 10 different ways. we could do this in ON-REV if we could get access to some of the graphics and stack stuff, like the templates. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Actually, this is really enlightening, given that I do not live that time in computer history. I remember that when i was a teenager, two of my neighbors were University teachers who used punch cards in their classes. Somewhere in this house, there are some of these punch cards. Always picked my curiosity to know what these holes actually means... :-D This have potential to create a future assignment for Multimedia students. Alejandro -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-defined-path-to-learn-Rev-for-new-users-tp624612p632287.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
My personal introduction to computers was TTL hardware. Anything I learn has to have some end goal or purpose. As my circuit boards got more and more complex, and wire wrapping was such a pain just to lay out a little bit of stupid logic, that about 1975 I started looking for a better way to control things. That led to a Z80 single board computer and Hex entry, then to an Apple ][ in assembly, basic and compiled basic, to a PDP-11 running Forth, a Rockwell AIM-65 computer running forth on ROM, back to Apple, then to a Mac, to hypercard, now Rev I've recently been going through a painful purge of my Apple ][ hardware, starting with all the data on the 51/4 disks. There's a very nice cross-platform system called ADT that allows a mac to be a server for an Apple ][ client through several methods. Basically you can start with bare iron and create an ADTPro system disk (it does pokes in the monitor very slowly here) that eventually sets up a network between the two for transfers at 115,000 baud! I didn't even know the Apple could do that. The resulting files are .dsk images that an Emulator like Virtual ][ can read. Anyway, mid-mission the old Apple ][ plus keyboard failed. I had all these disks sitting around... Finally I bit the bullet and bought a very nice Apple ][e and drive for about $60 on ebay, with shipping. Finished the job. It takes about 30 seconds to copy a 140k disk. Earlier ADT users may remember it took a lot more time in years past. Very fine coding - Now all rewritten in Java. It runs in ProDos but copies any format. http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/ But I've had my fill of nostalgia, the small programming spaces, the awkward typing, disk errors, bad keyboards, etc. This stuff was wonderful for it's time, I made my living for years with it and I love my old machine dearly, but I so appreciate the tools I have now. Anybody in the SF area that wants a few Apple disks copied before I tear this rig down let me know - Stephen Barncard San Francisco http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev 2009/11/20 Alejandro Tejada capellan2...@gmail.com Actually, this is really enlightening, given that I do not live that time in computer history. I remember that when i was a teenager, two of my neighbors were University teachers who used punch cards in their classes. Somewhere in this house, there are some of these punch cards. Always picked my curiosity to know what these holes actually means... :-D This have potential to create a future assignment for Multimedia students. Alejandro -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-defined-path-to-learn-Rev-for-new-users-tp624612p632287.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
stephen- Friday, November 20, 2009, 12:08:25 PM, you wrote: This would be super-easy to do in Rev. 10 different ways. Couldn't resist the challenge. I uploaded a Hollerith Card Script Editor to revOnline. -- -Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Le 17 nov. 09 à 21:22, Alejandro Tejada a écrit : This training should be offered in teacher's native language. Although, revTalk should be keep as an English-like programming language, without trying to translate commands, functions, handlers, messages and tokens to another languages. (Different of Apple Computer, that actually localized HyperTalk to many languages) It was not a good thing (the translation of HyperCard), the difference between me (french) and an english or american that's RevTalk is not english language but programming language and it is an advantage that RevTalk is not in french, there is no (almost) confusion between RevTalk (command, functions, etc.) and my part of code.. Thanks in advance for your comments! For the rest I have no comment, I am a curious guy and I have a little trouble understanding people who lack curiosity... I started with HyperCard in 1987 and gradually I made progress, it took time because it's not my job (and I have neither received any training in computers or programming), but satisfaction is so great when you reach the goal you had set (even if the first solution found is not the best). Bons souvenirs de Paris René ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com wrote: I started with HyperCard in 1987 and gradually I made progress, it took time because it's not my job (and I have neither received any training in computers or programming), but satisfaction is so great when you reach the goal you had set (even if the first solution found is not the best). C'est un peu pareil pour moi :-) je suis enfin arrivé à installer SheepShaver*, et j'ai redécouvert des piles HC que j'avais écrites en ... 1989 (bon anniversaire !) So me too :-) I installed at least SheepShaver*, and rediscovered also stacks I wrote back to ... 1989 (good anniversary!) * c'était pas de la tarte, et ça fonctionne couci-couça * not very easy, it works not very well ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Dear Alejandro, It seems to me that your are trying to lead horses to water, who are neither thirsty nor want to drink. ;-) But you raise an interesting point. We talk about the world embracing revTalk and revlets because the language is so easy. And, indeed it is. But, when I think back to when I first found rev, the major paradigm shift was not the language, but the concept of stacks and cards and how this equated to a windowed GUI. And, had I not had 15 years of extensive programming experience in another rev, called Revelation, which is PICK on the PC and which is very, very similar to rev in that it is a scripting language with chunks, no variable typing, compiling is at the individual script level, so you run and program at the same time, and many, many other similarities, I would have also probably had to go through a paradigm shift with the concept of chunks and where to put or organize scripts. So, assuming there are programmers who know how to program in other more traditional programming languages, it's not the revTalk language itself that is the major barrier. It's not a great leap to move from using equal signs for variable assignment to using put, or using is instead of a double equal sign. And certainly not having to use line ending characters like semicolons or bracketing blocks of code using curly brackets is freeing and a no brainer to embrace. The leap is in the structure and not the language. So while I think your course outline rightfully starts out with stacks and cards, I think, more than how to create, the focus in the beginning needs to be on the theory of stacks and cards and how these equate to the structures they are already familiar with. Next, needs to be the theory of chunks and variables and then followed by theory of scripting and where to place blocks of code and what makes this all work or ties it all together, which is the message path. Also, before you get into objects you need o cover the theory behind commands and functions and how, in general, scripts are organized. I think without making this paradigm shift first, a programmer used to top down or OOP programming will just feel like a stranger in a strange land and will not hear your lessons on buttons and fields because he will be sitting there still trying to get his bearings. So, I think you need focus on the lay of the land first. Once a programmer has this down pat, the rest is easy and almost doesn't have to be taught because there is so much documentation that can easily be looked up for syntax and details. Also, you don't have to write all of this from scratch. Much of it is already available and just needs to be pieced together for your particular audience. As I say, you raise an interesting point, because this applies to not just your fellow teachers, but all those we expect to embrace revlets and revTalk. Aloha from Hawaii, Jim Bufalini Alejandro Tejada wrote: Previously, i have wrote about my fellow teachers that i have invited to use RevMedia in their classes. If you read those comments, you had learn that they expect to receive training from the source, from Runrev, not unlike Microsoft and Adobe offers with their certification programs. The idea of learning on their own, do not attract too many of them. I know that this is the result of previous experiences in trainings for other softwares. This training should be offered in teacher's native language. Although, revTalk should be keep as an English-like programming language, without trying to translate commands, functions, handlers, messages and tokens to another languages. (Different of Apple Computer, that actually localized HyperTalk to many languages) These teachers actually want that RevMedia, have an interface more similar to Office programs like Word or PowerPoint. The idea of scripting visual effects for transitions from a card to another, or hiding or showing a control seems so alien to them, that i suspect that this useful feature (for their specific kind of work), would be underutilized or unused at all. Now, i am looking for comments about this idea: To make easier for Teachers (or users), to know in which level of expertise they stand, divide clearly the learning experience in different levels, just like HyperCard do. The following paragraph was copied from this page: http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.03/03.10/HyperCardProgrammi ng/index.html There are 5 user levels within Hypercard. The top most level, and easiest to use, is Browsing. This allows the user to navigate through Stacks and look at information but not to add or modify it. (My comment: Given that Rev is multiplatform, i should add another ability to this level that should be carried to others levels: The ability of making clear and understable reports of failures or malfunction of stacks to their authors, using screenshots and written reports. This is really important and should be so easy, that do
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Hello ! I read that the implementation of SheepSaver was tricky... What about that ? René Bonjour, J'ai lu que la mise en œuvre de SheepSaver était délicate... Qu'en est-il exactement ? René Le 19 nov. 09 à 14:04, Dom a écrit : I installed at least SheepShaver* ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
[Fr][En]Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com wrote: Hello ! I read that the implementation of SheepSaver was tricky... What about that ? René Bonjour, J'ai lu que la mise en œuvre de SheepSaver était délicate... Qu'en est-il exactement ? bon je mets la balise bilingue you may encounter french beyond this limit ;-)) ce n'est pas le sauveur de moutons, mais le raseur de moutons ;-) it doesn't Save Sheep, but Shaves them ;-) trève de plaisanterie enough kidding oui, j'ai eu du mal à installer SheepShaver -- en fait ça bloquait à chaque fois sur Mac OS ROM qui n'était pas reconnue comme une ROM valide (subtil, il faut un vrai disque Mac OS et pas seulement le CD d'installation, qui ne marche qu'avec la machine qui est vendue avec*) installing SheepShaver was rather daunting Mac OS ROM was not recognized you must have a real Mac OS disc, not a simple install disc* et puis, le version de SheepShaver n'était pas la bonne non plus, au départ SheepShaver est prévu pour les machines Intel -- et j'ai un PowerPC G5 ! the current SheepShaver version was not good for PPC Macs cerise sur le gâteau, SheepShaver marchait bien avec Tiger, mais avait des vapeurs avec Leopard : tout pour plaire, quoi ! SheepShaver had some problems with Leopard et, subitement, l'autre jour, à mon énième tentative, je charge une version de SheepShaver qui est garantie marcher sur PPC, et je suis pas à pas la doc, trouvée sur le même site : http://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/sheepshaver_mac_os_x_setup and suddenly that worked with a new version of SheepShaver! j'installe comme décrit le System avec un CD Apple (Mac OS 8.6)... et ça marche !! j'ai pu lancer HyperCard, et d'autres applis legacy -- pour m'apercevoir que des fichiers ne sont pas reconnus (erreur -51), et que 'installation est instable ;- I launched HyperCard, and other legacy apps -- but a number of files are not recognized (-51 error), and the System is instable * en fait ce n'est pas absolu, mais je simplifie not absolutely Voilà [bilingue] ;-) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Hi from Paris, I think Jim has it all sown up. From: Jim Bufalini j...@visitrieve.com So, I think you need focus on the lay of the land first. I went through many languages from 1401 Autocoder, through Fortran, through Cobol, through 360 Assembler, and then through PL/1. I was young and capable of evolving. Hypercard (at the age of 45) was a shock, and Revolution at 60, was a bigger shock. But I took the blows, and came out winning (and not whining !!) The developments of Revolution (revlets, revtalk, On-Rev, shake the traditional programmer, but you have to go with the flow, or sink into oblivion. Then the question arises - Are there any traditional programmers left ? - It MAY be a dying breed. Best Regards -Francis Nothing should ever be done for the first time ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
If one has ever had to work with punched cards (and I have not) genuinely deserves the title hard core. That stuff was so boring in the 60s that it drove me away from the field. How did anything get done? - Stephen Barncard San Francisco http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev 2009/11/19 Francis Nugent Dixon effe...@wanadoo.fr Hi from Paris, I think Jim has it all sown up. From: Jim Bufalini j...@visitrieve.com So, I think you need focus on the lay of the land first. I went through many languages from 1401 Autocoder, through Fortran, through Cobol, through 360 Assembler, and then through PL/1. I was young and capable of evolving. Hypercard (at the age of 45) was a shock, and Revolution at 60, was a bigger shock. But I took the blows, and came out winning (and not whining !!) The developments of Revolution (revlets, revtalk, On-Rev, shake the traditional programmer, but you have to go with the flow, or sink into oblivion. Then the question arises - Are there any traditional programmers left ? - It MAY be a dying breed. Best Regards -Francis Nothing should ever be done for the first time ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Hi Stephan and Francis, If one has ever had to work with punched cards (and I have not) genuinely deserves the title hard core. That stuff was so boring in the 60s that it drove me away from the field. I did as a teenager in high school on a summer job (circa 1968). ;-) I had actually forgotten this until just now. How did anything get done? Veeerrryyy slowly as you kept watching the clock for it to hit 5:00 pm. ;-) - Stephen Barncard San Francisco http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev 2009/11/19 Francis Nugent Dixon effe...@wanadoo.fr Hi from Paris, snip and came out winning (and not whining !!) Clever. I like this. I am going to steal it! ;-) Then the question arises - Are there any traditional programmers left ? - It MAY be a dying breed. Almost any language that is not of the xtalk variety, such as C++, .net, Visual Basic, etc. is traditional compared to revTalk and there are more of these types of programmers than ever before. Aloha from Hawaii, Jim Bufalini ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Jim Bufalini wrote: It seems to me that your are trying to lead horses to water, who are neither thirsty nor want to drink. ;-) But the staggering amount of public funds that have been dumped into computers in the classroom requires that they really ought to either get thirsty really quickly or be force-fed the water. Here's a sad, sobering read: http://www.hull.ac.uk/php/edskas/Cuban%20article%20-%20oversold.pdf Yes, it was written some time ago, but I've not really seen any studies that indicate that things have changed for the better. In my children's 4 years in the public school system, there were a number of computers present in each classroom. Mostly they never got used. Or, if they did get used, it was for something completely stupid, like reading a story online. My niece and nephew, in the third grade, were required to use PowerPoint to present their vocabulary and spelling words. Yet another stupid use of computers in education. I've seen school district technology implementation plans for using computers to teach math -- how? Have the students type up word problems and type up the answers. DUMB DUMB DUMB! Or, in the case of I believe it may have been LA Unified, they forced the kids to use math education software that was SO BAD that hundreds of math educators and mathematicians signed an online petition saying that it was the worst educational software they'd ever seen. So, why was the school using it? It had been somebody's pet project and the district was threatened with the loss of NSF funds if they didn't use the software, which the NSF had underwritten. My children's first grade teacher, when I asked her about the computers (she's the one who had them reading stories online), and I made a joke about PowerPoint, her response was gee, I wish I knew how to do that in class! I wanted to weep. PowerPoint. For 6 year olds. When there was so much more that was possible to do with computers in education MORE THAN TWENTY YEARS AGO. But you raise an interesting point. We talk about the world embracing revTalk and revlets because the language is so easy. And, indeed it is. But, when I think back to when I first found rev, the major paradigm shift was not the language, but the concept of stacks and cards and how this equated to a windowed GUI. And, had I not had 15 years of extensive programming experience in another rev, called Revelation, which is PICK on the PC and which is very, very similar to rev in that it is a scripting language with chunks, no variable typing, compiling is at the individual script level, so you run and program at the same time, and many, many other similarities, I would have also probably had to go through a paradigm shift with the concept of chunks and where to put or organize scripts. --And, of course, this is exactly why it is perhaps a better audience for using this particular program, because cards and stacks of cards are things they already understand from the real world whereas typed data and where to put your semi-colons and how to indent your curlicue brackets are not. They have no pre-existing models by which to be confounded. The leap is in the structure and not the language. So while I think your course outline rightfully starts out with stacks and cards, I think, more than how to create, the focus in the beginning needs to be on the theory of stacks and cards and how these equate to the structures they are already familiar with. --That would be none. And none is a good thing ;-) Next, needs to be the theory of chunks and variables and then followed by theory of scripting and where to place blocks of code and what makes this all work or ties it all together, which is the message path. Also, before you get into objects you need o cover the theory behind commands and functions and how, in general, scripts are organized. --At this point, they've either run screaming to the hills to fire up PowerPoint or their eyes are glazed over or they're asleep. Guaranteed. They need short, sweet project-based learning that allows them to immediately begin using whatever little they've learned to date. I think without making this paradigm shift first, a programmer used to top down or OOP programming will just feel like a stranger in a strange land and will not hear your lessons on buttons and fields because he will be sitting there still trying to get his bearings. So, I think you need focus on the lay of the land first. Once a programmer has this down pat, the rest is easy and almost doesn't have to be taught because there is so much documentation that can easily be looked up for syntax and details. --Here's the problem: Teachers do not want to be turned into programmers. Who cares if they do in 15 lines what you'd do in 3? Admire your elegantly-crafted 3 lines, certainly. Laugh at my 20, certainly (well, okay, laugh discretely). But, at the end of the day, I'm pleased that I
RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Hi Judy, Your points are all well taken and true - for kids. But if you read Alejandro's original post, you will see that he is designing a course outline for his fellow teachers who already program in more traditional language(s), which one or ones I don't know, and he is wanting to convert them over to rev. This is the issue I was addressing and why I talked about the importance of addressing the paradigm shift first. Aloha from Hawaii, Jim Bufalini On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Jim Bufalini wrote: It seems to me that your are trying to lead horses to water, who are neither thirsty nor want to drink. ;-) But the staggering amount of public funds that have been dumped into computers in the classroom requires that they really ought to either get thirsty really quickly or be force-fed the water. Here's a sad, sobering read: http://www.hull.ac.uk/php/edskas/Cuban%20article%20-%20oversold.pdf Yes, it was written some time ago, but I've not really seen any studies that indicate that things have changed for the better. In my children's 4 years in the public school system, there were a number of computers present in each classroom. Mostly they never got used. Or, if they did get used, it was for something completely stupid, like reading a story online. My niece and nephew, in the third grade, were required to use PowerPoint to present their vocabulary and spelling words. Yet another stupid use of computers in education. I've seen school district technology implementation plans for using computers to teach math -- how? Have the students type up word problems and type up the answers. DUMB DUMB DUMB! Or, in the case of I believe it may have been LA Unified, they forced the kids to use math education software that was SO BAD that hundreds of math educators and mathematicians signed an online petition saying that it was the worst educational software they'd ever seen. So, why was the school using it? It had been somebody's pet project and the district was threatened with the loss of NSF funds if they didn't use the software, which the NSF had underwritten. My children's first grade teacher, when I asked her about the computers (she's the one who had them reading stories online), and I made a joke about PowerPoint, her response was gee, I wish I knew how to do that in class! I wanted to weep. PowerPoint. For 6 year olds. When there was so much more that was possible to do with computers in education MORE THAN TWENTY YEARS AGO. But you raise an interesting point. We talk about the world embracing revTalk and revlets because the language is so easy. And, indeed it is. But, when I think back to when I first found rev, the major paradigm shift was not the language, but the concept of stacks and cards and how this equated to a windowed GUI. And, had I not had 15 years of extensive programming experience in another rev, called Revelation, which is PICK on the PC and which is very, very similar to rev in that it is a scripting language with chunks, no variable typing, compiling is at the individual script level, so you run and program at the same time, and many, many other similarities, I would have also probably had to go through a paradigm shift with the concept of chunks and where to put or organize scripts. --And, of course, this is exactly why it is perhaps a better audience for using this particular program, because cards and stacks of cards are things they already understand from the real world whereas typed data and where to put your semi-colons and how to indent your curlicue brackets are not. They have no pre-existing models by which to be confounded. The leap is in the structure and not the language. So while I think your course outline rightfully starts out with stacks and cards, I think, more than how to create, the focus in the beginning needs to be on the theory of stacks and cards and how these equate to the structures they are already familiar with. --That would be none. And none is a good thing ;-) Next, needs to be the theory of chunks and variables and then followed by theory of scripting and where to place blocks of code and what makes this all work or ties it all together, which is the message path. Also, before you get into objects you need o cover the theory behind commands and functions and how, in general, scripts are organized. --At this point, they've either run screaming to the hills to fire up PowerPoint or their eyes are glazed over or they're asleep. Guaranteed. They need short, sweet project-based learning that allows them to immediately begin using whatever little they've learned to date. I think without making this paradigm shift first, a programmer used to top down or OOP programming will just feel like a stranger in a strange land and will not hear your lessons on buttons and fields because he will be sitting there still
RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Hi Jim, I went back and re-read Alejandro's post and that is most definitely NOT the impression it gives me. I also chatted with him for a good half hour or more yesterday and nothing in that conversation suggested that these teachers already know how to program using another language/environment. For example, he repeatedly makes the point that they are expecting Rev to look like and have similar capabilities to a typical Office suite of programs (which is about all teacher ed candidates tend to be taught). He says they look at the volume of documentation and are horrified, whereas probably most of us who already use Rev to varying degrees wish there was even more (for example, it was recently suggested to me to use the selectedLine for a tabbed button... I checked the docs and they only suggest that selectedLine works for fields, not buttons, but it did, indeed work). Can you point me to what I missed (re Alejandro)? :-) Judy On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Jim Bufalini wrote: Hi Judy, Your points are all well taken and true - for kids. But if you read Alejandro's original post, you will see that he is designing a course outline for his fellow teachers who already program in more traditional language(s), which one or ones I don't know, and he is wanting to convert them over to rev. This is the issue I was addressing and why I talked about the importance of addressing the paradigm shift first. Aloha from Hawaii, Jim Bufalini ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Judy Perry wrote: I went back and re-read Alejandro's post and that is most definitely NOT the impression it gives me. I also chatted with him for a good half hour or more yesterday and nothing in that conversation suggested that these teachers already know how to program using another language/environment. For example, he repeatedly makes the point that they are expecting Rev to look like and have similar capabilities to a typical Office suite of programs (which is about all teacher ed candidates tend to be taught). He says they look at the volume of documentation and are horrified, whereas probably most of us who already use Rev to varying degrees wish there was even more (for example, it was recently suggested to me to use the selectedLine for a tabbed button... I checked the docs and they only suggest that selectedLine works for fields, not buttons, but it did, indeed work). Can you point me to what I missed (re Alejandro)? Hi Judy, If you spoke with him for 30-minutes yesterday, then you probably have not missed anything and I am the one who misunderstood his post. ;-) In my defense, when I read (brackets added for emphasis by me): - Hi all, Previously, i have wrote about [my fellow teachers] that i have [invited to use RevMedia] in their classes. If you read those comments, you had learn that they expect to receive training from the source, from Runrev, not unlike Microsoft and Adobe offers with their [certification programs]. The idea of learning on their own, do not attract too many of them. I know that this is the result of previous experiences in [trainings for other softwares]... - I read it to mean he wanted to teach his fellow teachers (not kids) how to program in rev and I took his previous experiences in trainings for other softwares to mean other software languages and not how to use office programs. And, in Alejandro's defense, I fully understand he is not writing in his native language. None the less, and in light of what is now my obvious misunderstanding aside, it did cause me to think of when I first started with Rev and as I said in my post: ... But you raise an interesting point... assuming there are programmers who know how to program in other more traditional programming languages... you need to focus on the lay of the land first... this applies to not just your fellow teachers, but all those we expect to embrace revlets and revTalk... I stand by this, even if it wasn't what Alejandro was asking. And in writing my misguided response, it made me realize that this is probably the single most barrier to mass adoption of revlets by programmers of other languages. However, it is certainly not an insurmountable barrier, and in fact, a very addressable one. As to teaching kids, you'll have to speak to my wife who is a certified K through 12 and special needs school teacher. ;-) She was previously, for 18 years, a Systems Engineer with IBM in charge of Education Systems and installing computers in the classroom here. Aloha from Hawaii, Jim Bufalini ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)
Hi Jim, If you spoke with him for 30-minutes yesterday, then you probably have not missed anything and I am the one who misunderstood his post. ;-) --Well, to clarify, it was a text-based chat as opposed to a phone-based one, so I might well have missed something! :-) None the less, and in light of what is now my obvious misunderstanding aside, it did cause me to think of when I first started with Rev and as I said in my post: ... But you raise an interesting point... assuming there are programmers who know how to program in other more traditional programming languages... you need to focus on the lay of the land first... this applies to not just your fellow teachers, but all those we expect to embrace revlets and revTalk... --That's why I thought it was neat that Mark Wieder did his little VB -- Rev cheat-sheet in the new screensteps lessons. I stand by this, even if it wasn't what Alejandro was asking. And in writing my misguided response, it made me realize that this is probably the single most barrier to mass adoption of revlets by programmers of other languages. However, it is certainly not an insurmountable barrier, and in fact, a very addressable one. --Indeed. We need more cheat-sheets for those folks! As to teaching kids, you'll have to speak to my wife who is a certified K through 12 and special needs school teacher. ;-) She was previously, for 18 years, a Systems Engineer with IBM in charge of Education Systems and installing computers in the classroom here. --Nice! Best, Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
