Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
On Friday 07 July 2006 17:12, Chipp Walters wrote: We do have something running in the labs right now. But really, is there enough of an installed user base of Rev developers in Linux to make it a commercially viable product? Besides, aren't most Linux users wanting NOT TO PAY for stuff? Chipp, that is probably a bit of an old fashioned view of Linux users, although what you say is fair enough, given its past. More and more I am seeing commercial users choosing Linux. Because of that, more and more commercial and proprietary software is being produced for Linux users. Still, it is a drop in the ocean really.. Are you willing to shell out, say $200 for such an add-on? If not, what is the 'right price?' Frankly, it's pretty hard making any kind of money developing add-ons for Rev in the Mac/PC space, much less than Linux. Just because there is one or two loud voices, doesn't mean there is a business opportunity for us in Linux. I would pay that if I had a need, but my software is mostly in-house stuff and right now I don't have the need for a browser. Which I guess confirms that the market may be very small, as it is only a part of what is already a small group... -- Rishi Viner -- Australia ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Thanks for the complement, Chipp. As I've said, we've actually done a good bit of work on altBrowser for Linux. Frankly, the external interface for RR on Linux is pretty bad. Just ask around. I don't need to ask around, I've felt it beneath my skin for quite some time now. If we were to release altBrowser for Linux, I'm sure you wouldn't be satisfied-- and I doubt we would be either. I do believe Rev's external interface on Linux is due for an overhaul. That's not news, it's history. But are you suggesting that Rev's overhaul hasn't even begun yet?!!! I was hoping for this in #2.7 - Coming soon! I needed a browser for Rev. I hired someone to build it and paid them. If you're interested in doing the same, please contact me offlist. --- Thanks, but I wouldn't have the money. I'm an individual producer of free software, living in Brazil, not a company. I was sincere in my best wishes for you to use RealBasic, as they obviously already have the solution you desire. And if it does work for you, please respond back to us with your findings. I am always interested in learning about others experiences using RAD tools, in fact just today I talked with Dan about Smalltalk. -- Well, if I want to use an embedded browser, I cannot use Rev, that's for sure. There never was and never will be any incompatability between using Rev for some things, and Realbasic for others. But that I should be obliged to do it is disappointing, to say the least. It might be didactic though. At this time, we do not have plans to sell an altBrowser for Linux in the near future. That of course, may change. -- If it does change, on whose initiative would that be? I am shocked that this issue has apparently made only retrograde progress since it came up almost a year ago. Somebody needs to get their finger out in order to move forward. Best, Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
hi Linux is a great platform for server style rev development. Currently I'm researching testing on Xubuntu, a variation of Ubuntu but using the Xfce desktop which rev positively flies. I have used a number of distros in the past, but I certainly don't consider myself a full penguin. Aside from faceless-CGI, rev is great for building admin interfaces that need to be accessed on the server desktop. Most Open Sauce projects which talk to servers are web-based these days (eg. webmin) but with rev you really do get the best of both world by being able to simply create cross-platform results. Because I have access to develop for the 3 platforms (pc/mac/linux) I like to try test my applications across them all. Linux has also been the source of great multimedia projects like VideoLan, which although has interesting streaming capabilities I mainly use to play videos fullscreen on macs which don't have Quicktime Pro :) It's good to hear a linux altBrowser is under development and I like the altFirefox or altMozilla idea. Even better maybe rev needs to integrate plugins the mozilla/firefox way, all the freely available code is there (personally haven't verified this). Not many big players seem to release Internet Explorer PC-only plugins anymore. It would allow us rev-developers the ability to utilise web-plugins the rev-way. regards alex ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
On Friday 07 July 2006 05:11, Richard Gaskin wrote: While I don't normally have much respect for RB marketing resources, SUSE makes a lot of sense. This set of videos shows a seriousness about usability not often found in other distros: http://www.novell.com/video/desktop/ Sure, half of that is just OS X knockoffs, but if you're going to steal ideas they might as well steal good ones. :) Favoring Novell also returns a favor to the Rev community: Novell has published a series of articles about using Rev on SUSE: http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/14961.html http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tip/1631.html http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/1863.html I'd agree that SuSE is one of the better commercial options. If you are installing office wide and need something well supported, this is a great option. Novell really do seem to be going in the right direction here. I have 4 people in my office working productively on SuSE desktops, and all coming from low computer literacy backgrounds. SuSE is one of the first distros to get to the stage where I would let people loose on it and expect to get productive work just done. Who knows? If enough of us pool our resources maybe we can push SUSE enough to kill off most of the others, ultimately benefiting everyone Disagree with that. Choice is what makes Linux strong. What you should hope for is greater standards compliance across all the Linux families and desktop types... -- Rishi Viner -- Australia ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
On Friday 07 July 2006 04:47, Viktoras Didziulis wrote: I personally have Ubuntu linux (Debian family) installed on my laptop PC and PC as the second OS. Talking about different families of Linux is probably more relevant. The differences often come down to the package manager, mainly. Red Hat - RPM Debian - APT Gentoo - Portage etc Most of the other distros come in to the category of someone wanting to take one of those frameworks and make a new distro from it by tailoring it for a particular use, eg server, desktop, home theater, nubie, guru, live CD, commercial, free only or just I can do it better. They don't start from scratch but use another distro in the family and branch off from it. Regarding the criterions I would suggest taking compliance with LSB 3.1 standard as the main criteria because that's what all the standard is for... All serious Linuxes should implement this standard. Good choice and more productive to back the standard than a particular distro. You would probably get more mileage from just stating the requirements for Rev, than by stating compliance with a given distro. The distros change regularly, if you state compliance with SuSE you had better maintain that even though SuSE will have new versions out many times per year with significant differences. E.g. audio should soon be jumping from Alsa to Jack, probably across many distros. My 2c. -- Rishi Viner -- Australia ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Bob, Regarding altBrowser for Linux. We do have something running in the labs right now. But really, is there enough of an installed user base of Rev developers in Linux to make it a commercially viable product? Besides, aren't most Linux users wanting NOT TO PAY for stuff? Are you willing to shell out, say $200 for such an add-on? If not, what is the 'right price?' Frankly, it's pretty hard making any kind of money developing add-ons for Rev in the Mac/PC space, much less than Linux. Just because there is one or two loud voices, doesn't mean there is a business opportunity for us in Linux. In the words of Latrell Spreewell, I've got a family to feed! -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
I think that the word 'Linux' (or, if we want to be picky 'Gnu-Linux') is becoming increasingly distracting! I have customers who come to me because they (like 95% of Bulgarians) have a P copy of Windows on their PC and are just waking up (!!!), mainly stimulated by the marching feet of the European Community. If I use the word 'Linux' it is almost as bad as offering a Hasidic chap a bacon sandwich - they go all funny and that is the end of my chance. So (what a 'naughty' fellow I am) I tell them that I have a number of OpenSource OS's available that I can install, and then I name them: Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Puppy, Tilix and so on; then tell them what software packages are installed with each OS and their capabilities. My customers don't know about Linux, don't care, and just want me to get their PC up and running with the capabilities it had when running Windows before cops get to them and fine them $5,000 and confiscate their PC: and with the -buntu family I can honestly say I can do that very quickly indeed. The other day I went to buy a Logitech mouse and on the box it has a Windows and a Mac symbol so I knew it would work with both those OS's - now had it has an Ubuntu (for example) symbol I would have felt even better. Had it had TUX I would have felt queasy; very queasy; as I feel comfortable with Debian-derived systems - but not other Linux systems. So we need seals of Approval for OS's. not some vague term that covers a multitude of things. sincerely, Richmond Mathewson Philosophical problems are confusions arising owing to the fluidity of meanings users attach to words and phrases. Mathewson, 2006 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
As someone who has only used any kind of Unix in a protected environment (I mean protected by human beings, who provided me with a WIMP interface to keep me quiet), I am quietly horrified by this discussion. If there are so many different flavours of the thing (distros and maybe even more signs of divergence - I mean, I don't even know what RunRev mean on the web site when they say Revolution supports Unix, Linux,...), what remains constant? How can the *nix world really expect to take over the desktop if an ordinary punter (at whatever level of need or professionalism) can't tell if their software/ hardware/ UI/ interoperability is likely to be catered for? Have I got this completely wrong? How can diversity be its strength, as some are saying? Doesn't that mean that any support resources - free or paid for - will be stretched infinitely thin? This is relevant to Rev insofar as what has been discussed in this thread seems to point to a bottomless pit of resource requirements for the unfortunate developers of Runtime Revolution. If this perception even partly reflects reality, then the Seal of Approval idea sounds great to me, simply because it means that scarce resources will be concentrated in fewer areas. Can someone who has no 'religious position' on a particular flavour of Unix clarify this for the rest of us? Graham Graham Samuel / The Living Fossil Co. / UK and France ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Thanks Chipp! Please excuse the snips, but it's the best way of answering. Chipp wrote: In the words of Latrell Spreewell, I've got a family to feed! Most of us have a family to feed. Try doing it in a 3rd world country (where incidentally most computer users reside) where your salary might be between 10 and 100 times less than what it would be in the States. Chipp wrote: Are you willing to shell out, say $200 for such an add-on? --- If I had no alternative, then yes, I would be willing to shell out $200 for such an add-on. I need it that much, but I told you that more than a year ago. However, now I don't need to. Realbasic have bundled a browser with their IDE for free. Not only is an embedded browser a fundamental element in any general-purpose programming system nowadays, but it is also necessary in order to give credibility to Rev's description of their product as cross-platform: after all, Windows and Mac have an altBrowser, so how can Linux be left out? In 1998 (eight years ago) VB6 didn't have anything else built in for dealing with the Internet, but at least they had an embedded browser. For you now to cast doubt on whether or not you intend to provide it for Rev Linux leaves me speechless. I suggest you take it off-list, have a nice friendly chat with Kevin, and see what you can work out. Chipp wrote: If not, what is the 'right price?' I think that you and Kevin are more qualified to work that out than I am. The only thing I would suggest is that $200 is a bit steep. I am no salesman, but I do know that you can either sell a few things at a high price, or sell a lot of things at a low price. The trouble here is that Linux is definitely an emerging market, still only comparable to the Macintosh market in terms of numbers, but of course the Mac owners are the richest of us all! In my view, your immediate production of the altBrowser would represent: a) an investment in the future; b) a means of avoiding damage to RR, which is of course also an investment in the future of Altuit. All this depends on what you consider the future of Linux to be. And also what you consider the future of Windows to be. Personally, I think that Windows is dead, but that it will take a number of years to lie down. This may not happen in America, but there is no doubt in my mind about what is happening in the rest of the world - at an exponential rate now. If it helps, just think of all those billions of Chinese, Indians and Brazilians, an enormous - still only potential - market for Rev and Altuit together. Regards, Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Bob, Enjoy RealBasic. Let us know how that works out for you. It didn't work out for the only other Brazilian I know. Oh, and check out the reference to Latrell Spreewell-- it was intended as a joke. best regards. Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Mark Wieder wrote: The Officially supported linux distros are Mandriva, RedHat, SuSE, and Linspire. All of these are mentioned during the installation process. And on the runrev web site. -- I would suggest reviewing official support for Redhat (and Fedora). In my 2.6.1. Rev Linux (tgz, not Redhat), there is no installation. Consequently, there is no mention of these distros. As for the mention of them on the Rev website, I think I need to go and have another look. Thanks. BTW, I haven't forgotton about the fstab thing. I'll get back to you. Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Rishi Viner wrote: The point is, diversity is the strength of Linux. There will always pop into existence a distro that does what a certain group of users needs (no matter how small). The best thing is there is always choice. Something the Mac/Win models have always lacked. -- I'll drink to that! Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
But surely you can see what a nightmare that creates for companies like RunRev, Altuit, and mine who may even *want* to deliver for Linux? I don't know much about the LSB standard but it sounds like that's a step in the right direction. Then the diversity at least diverges from a known starting point. On 7/7/06, Bob Warren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rishi Viner wrote: The point is, diversity is the strength of Linux. There will always pop into existence a distro that does what a certain group of users needs (no matter how small). The best thing is there is always choice. Something the Mac/Win models have always lacked. -- I'll drink to that! Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Chipp Walters wrote: Bob, Enjoy RealBasic. Let us know how that works out for you. It didn't work out for the only other Brazilian I know. Oh, and check out the reference to Latrell Spreewell-- it was intended as a joke. I'm sure you would like to complement that answer, Chipp, since it is not really appropriate in relation to what I said (or at least intended to mean) in my post. I'll take it as an immediate emotional reaction to what is really quite a difficult situation to work out on your part. BTW, only my heart is Brazilian. I'm from London mate! Best, Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Chipp: A practical suggestion: Why not start off altBrowser for Linux at a relatively high price (perhaps not quite $200 which is excessive), and then go diminishing the price as sales increase? I would certainly prefer to pay for it than to be actually forced to migrate to RB. Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Bob, As I've said, we've actually done a good bit of work on altBrowser for Linux. Frankly, the external interface for RR on Linux is pretty bad. Just ask around. If we were to release altBrowser for Linux, I'm sure you wouldn't be satisfied-- and I doubt we would be either. I do believe Rev's external interface on Linux is due for an overhaul. All of that said, here's how I got around this very same problem years ago. I needed a browser for Rev. I hired someone to build it and paid them. If you're interested in doing the same, please contact me offlist. I was sincere in my best wishes for you to use RealBasic, as they obviously already have the solution you desire. And if it does work for you, please respond back to us with your findings. I am always interested in learning about others experiences using RAD tools, in fact just today I talked with Dan about Smalltalk. At this time, we do not have plans to sell an altBrowser for Linux in the near future. That of course, may change. Have a nice day, Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
On the other hand just take a look at free tools like Perl, Python, Tcl/Tk, shells and a dozen of others. They are available for all Linuxes even the small ones (this means it is possible!), Windowses and MacOS'es, and note that they are free with thousands of modules for every imaginable purpose, large international users community and books published by SAMS and Oreily. Take a look at commercial IDE's currently dominated by Active State. For Windows they already offer Visual RAD Environment through Visual Studio plugins they create. I guess they keep working on Linux too. These languages are well tested by time and widely used for very serious jobs like gene sequencing, bioinformatics, server-side soft, etc... So their quality makes no doubt... But they still lack some Visual features that the Revolution has Where am I turning your attention to?.. -To the fact that it is just a question of time when either commercial or open source Tk building environments are going to reach comparable level to that of the Revolution RAD. Tk is now sort of an natural standard in creating GUIs for Tcl, Perl, Python, etc. And there are other players in the market like creators of wx widgets technology. Now imagine what happens if untill that time Revolution s support for Linuxes will still be limited ?.. Will the market share increase for the tool if other free or commercial tools can do same RAD jobs or even more with dozen of different syntaxes at once - satisfying nearly all styles of programming and at the same time being naturally and truly multiplatform ? Considering the embedded browser - there is a possibility to embed Mozilla for this purpse just go and take a look here: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/embedding/ Simply because Mozilla exists and runs on every Linux with Gnome, KDE or other decent graphical environments. Its licence isn't very restrictive and it has own xml based Chrome (Mozilla's GUI) manipulation tools. Is it worth efforts. I think so. Why ? - Just observe the flow of history... In my country (Lithuania) just a decade ago everybody used MS Windows. It was 100 dirty illegal and it was on 100% of PC's everywhere, just because of the economical differences between the Eastern Europe and Western World. Then BSA (business software alliance) backed by the Microsoft stepped into our land - and see what happens next - small companies, many of them, went bancrupt after actions of the BSA, because they took everything including these very PC's and enforced large fines. All this happened in the country with economy still in transition. The result now is that 1) in private business sector all Windowses became legal, 2) people look ironically at Microsoft's claims for caring about others business or saving money because it used to ruin their business not so long years ago, 3) Linux is already on the rise - 80% of IT companies run at least several Linux boxes at their offices. Linux is popular among students and young people who want to be called hackers. Just several years ago people smiled on Linux or Open Source. Now they became a part of a positive image: oh you use Linux - respect ! You don't know what Linux stands for - then you are a poor lamer Linux already became adopted as an alternative OS in many small companies without any enforcement. Well, maybe with help of the BSA legal actions. Also resistance of governemental institutions to adopt Linux makes waves in educated public because this is just one more way how lazy bureaucracy wastes our taxes as every bureucrat needs at least two PC's - desktop and laptop, and one thinks to make an impession of a highly professional if Windows XP displays professional on its boot screen :-) - what costs additional money. Not to mention that nearly all scientific r/d projects emphasize importance of using Open Source, just because they have limited funding. So the world is changing rapidly. No, I do not think Windows is dying, but it is no more the only usable environment for any kind of work. This is enough for the market change to begin. Also note that enterprises like IBM, Novel and many others keep investing more and more into Linux world. Or maybe they are all simply wrong... All the best! Viktoras ---Original Message--- From: Dan Shafer Date: 07/07/06 21:38:25 To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval But surely you can see what a nightmare that creates for companies like RunRev, Altuit, and mine who may even *want* to deliver for Linux? I don't know much about the LSB standard but it sounds like that's a step in the right direction. Then the diversity at least diverges from a known starting point. On 7/7/06, Bob Warren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rishi Viner wrote: The point is, diversity is the strength of Linux. There will always pop into existence a distro that does what a certain group of users needs (no matter how small). The best thing is there is always choice
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Viktoras: Thanks for that great contribution. It's important to know what is happening in countries such as yours. Here in Brazil, the move towards Linux is perhaps not quite so advanced yet, but it is officially backed by the government, the reason being, of course, that countries such as ours have no other viable solution! Regards, Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
The Rev for Linux Seal of Approval doesn't exist. I'd like to suggest it, but perhaps under the more practical heading of Currently approved Linux distros for use with the Runtime Revolution programming system. There are hundreds of Linux distros out there, all at different stages of development, and with slightly different characteristics - particularly in the details of the file system. In my view, such a situation is perfectly natural and normal, and it is just a question of time before commonly-agreed standards and greater uniformity arise. We all remember what cars looked like a few years ago. You could, for example, tell an American car a mile off, and nobody could ever mistake it for an English Minicar, a German Beetle, or one of those French cars that looked like a baby's inverted pram. Nowadays, because of a natural process of optimization and other factors, it is very difficult at first glance to identify whether a car is American, Japanese, European, or whatever. From a programming point of view, the current situation is very intimidating, not only for Runtime Revolution, but also for anyone hoping to program in Rev for Linux generally rather than for a particular distro. However, the first great hurdle has been overcome by Rev: the IDE runs successfully on just about any distro you can find, whether installed on the HD, or running on a ramdisk using a Live CD. Heck, it runs beautifully even on Puppy Linux! However, what we need to evaluate as Rev programmers is whether any particular distro is worth supporting at all in its current state, and whether the peculiar characteristics of its file system are worth catering for in terms of time and energy devoted to our programming efforts. A great way of evaluating a considerable number of the distros out there is to adopt the hobby of collecting live CDs. You just pop them in your drive, boot up your machine, and Bob's your uncle. Of course, if you have some kind of Linux already installed on your HD then this is a help, since a lot of Linuxes running in RAM make use of the HD's swap partition if one is available, but this is normally not essential, and I have never tried a live CD and had any kind of subsequent trouble with my Windows as a result of accidental interference with the HD. For anyone interested in trying out Linux together with Rev, there is a great list of live CDs at http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php which can be downloaded and burned. So what criteria should be used for selecting Rev approved Linux distros? I suggest the following stringent list: 1. The distro runs or installs automatically (i.e. can be done by a layman) and configures all normal hardware, even on old machines, including Windows network printers, floppy diskette drives, etc. 2. The distro plays all normal files (AVI, MP3, BMP, PDF, DOC, - i.e. common Linux AND Windows files) automatically out of the box. By this, when the file is clicked or double clicked, it is already associated with an appropriate utility to play or show it, and the program doesn't break or lack codecs, etc. 3. The Rev IDE (and consequently Rev standalones!) runs OK and looks good. Applying the above at this very moment, out of the 300 or so distros available, no more than a few are left. (I don't know the number exactly, because I haven't tried out anything like all the distros. Perhaps you can help with this evaluation.) And there are some surprises. I have always been a great fan of Ubuntu, and apart from its wonderful social philosophy, I think it shows the greatest potential of all the Linuxes, but at the moment it fails dismally over criterion #2. Red Hat Linux, one of the original most famous distros, supported indirectly by Rev in that they give special attention to RPM packaging, is such a big flop over criteria #1 and #2 that you might not even get as far as evaluating #3. Their new Fedora Linux - which looks like a copy of Ubuntu, except that it uses their own RPM packaging - is not much better, at least not on my old Pentium II with a very simple hardware configuration. In my limited experience, the only distros which roughly fulfill criteria #1-3 above are: a) Puppy Linux (!!) b) Linspire c) Kurumin (Brazilian Linux, an improved Knoppix) The case of MEPIS is rather tragic. It fulfills criteria #1-3 very well, but unlike the other Linuxes, Rev looks really crappy in it. The Rev font set (which appears to be independent of the system fonts chosen for the OS) is all small and spidery. Of course, other Linux users/experimenters are likely to disagree with my own subjective selection, and naturally the exact files for testing under criterion #2 is a thing which needs to be agreed upon. At this very moment I would have the tendency to suggest the following in relation to Rev's seal of approval: I. Since Ubuntu is one of the most stable and popular distros out there, and it has a magnificent
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Hi Bob, I personally have Ubuntu linux (Debian family) installed on my laptop PC and PC as the second OS. Really happy with this. Earlier have tried Fedora Core, but this one used to have some annoyances with laptops and multimedia. Then switched to Scientific Linux, multimedia was OK, still the main annoyance was corrupted RPM and updating system due to the bug in Red Hat family Linuxes. They likely got fixed this now, but as I have already switched to Ubuntu - not going back to Red Hat ;-). Regarding the criterions I would suggest taking compliance with LSB 3.1 standard as the main criteria because that's what all the standard is for... All serious Linuxes should implement this standard. Linuxes that are closiest to the imlementation of the LSB 3.1 are: Xandros, Red Hat, Novel, Ubuntu. Also Debian Common Core (DCC) Alliance - this means all Linuxes based on the stable Debian 3.1 (Sarge) are aiming at LSB 3.1. The DCC includes Knoppix, LinEx, Linspire, etc... Viktoras ---Original Message--- From: Bob Warren Date: 07/06/06 21:07:36 To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval The Rev for Linux Seal of Approval doesn't exist. I'd like to suggest it, but perhaps under the more practical heading of Currently approved Linux distros for use with the Runtime Revolution programming system. There are hundreds of Linux distros out there, all at different stages of development, and with slightly different characteristics - particularly in the details of the file system. In my view, such a situation is perfectly natural and normal, and it is just a question of time before commonly-agreed standards and greater uniformity arise. We all remember what cars looked like a few years ago. You could, for example, tell an American car a mile off, and nobody could ever mistake it for an English Minicar, a German Beetle, or one of those French cars that looked like a baby's inverted pram. Nowadays, because of a natural process of optimization and other factors, it is very difficult at first glance to identify whether a car is American, Japanese, European, or whatever. From a programming point of view, the current situation is very intimidating, not only for Runtime Revolution, but also for anyone hoping to program in Rev for Linux generally rather than for a particular distro. However, the first great hurdle has been overcome by Rev: the IDE runs successfully on just about any distro you can find, whether installed on the HD, or running on a ramdisk using a Live CD. Heck, it runs beautifully even on Puppy Linux! However, what we need to evaluate as Rev programmers is whether any particular distro is worth supporting at all in its current state, and whether the peculiar characteristics of its file system are worth catering for in terms of time and energy devoted to our programming efforts. A great way of evaluating a considerable number of the distros out there is to adopt the hobby of collecting live CDs. You just pop them in your drive, boot up your machine, and Bob's your uncle. Of course, if you have some kind of Linux already installed on your HD then this is a help, since a lot of Linuxes running in RAM make use of the HD's swap partition if one is available, but this is normally not essential, and I have never tried a live CD and had any kind of subsequent trouble with my Windows as a result of accidental interference with the HD. For anyone interested in trying out Linux together with Rev, there is a great list of live CDs at http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php which can be downloaded and burned. So what criteria should be used for selecting Rev approved Linux distros? I suggest the following stringent list: 1. The distro runs or installs automatically (i.e. can be done by a layman) and configures all normal hardware, even on old machines, including Windows network printers, floppy diskette drives, etc. 2. The distro plays all normal files (AVI, MP3, BMP, PDF, DOC, - i.e. common Linux AND Windows files) automatically out of the box. By this, when the file is clicked or double clicked, it is already associated with an appropriate utility to play or show it, and the program doesn't break or lack codecs, etc. 3. The Rev IDE (and consequently Rev standalones!) runs OK and looks good. Applying the above at this very moment, out of the 300 or so distros available, no more than a few are left. (I don't know the number exactly, because I haven't tried out anything like all the distros. Perhaps you can help with this evaluation.) And there are some surprises. I have always been a great fan of Ubuntu, and apart from its wonderful social philosophy, I think it shows the greatest potential of all the Linuxes, but at the moment it fails dismally over criterion #2. Red Hat Linux, one of the original most famous distros, supported indirectly by Rev in that they give special attention to RPM
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Bob Warren wrote: Just after starting this thread, I received the following news. I am mentioning it because it seems to correspond exactly to my idea of selecting a single distro (or small range of distros) for Rev's seal of approval in order to be more practical: AUSTIN, Texas, USA (July 6, 2006) — REAL Software, Inc., provider of REALbasic, cross-platform that really works, announced today that REALbasic 2006 Release 3 for Linux is available now. In addition to the over 100 features and fixes that have been added, REALbasic 2006 Release 3 for Linux has been specifically tested and optimized for use with SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop from Novell. While I don't normally have much respect for RB marketing resources, SUSE makes a lot of sense. This set of videos shows a seriousness about usability not often found in other distros: http://www.novell.com/video/desktop/ Sure, half of that is just OS X knockoffs, but if you're going to steal ideas they might as well steal good ones. :) Favoring Novell also returns a favor to the Rev community: Novell has published a series of articles about using Rev on SUSE: http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/14961.html http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tip/1631.html http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/1863.html Given all of these factors, I would whole-heartedly support a move by RunRev to target SUSE as the Linux for the most polished deployment (appearances, specialFolderPath, and other things we could use). If RunRev jumps on this idea I would definitely do a SUSE-First initiative for my own Linux releases. Who knows? If enough of us pool our resources maybe we can push SUSE enough to kill off most of the others, ultimately benefiting everyone -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Richard Gaskin wrote: Given all of these factors, I would whole-heartedly support a move by RunRev to target SUSE as the Linux for the most polished deployment (appearances, specialFolderPath, and other things we could use). If RunRev jumps on this idea I would definitely do a SUSE-First initiative for my own Linux releases. Who knows? If enough of us pool our resources maybe we can push SUSE enough to kill off most of the others, ultimately benefiting everyone I don't mind if they do. Didn't Revolution once have a Mandrake (now Mandriva) logo on its website? Presumably that was some kind of seal of approval. I wonder where that went? Martin Baxter ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Just after starting this thread, I received the following news. I am mentioning it because it seems to correspond exactly to my idea of selecting a single distro (or small range of distros) for Rev's seal of approval in order to be more practical: AUSTIN, Texas, USA (July 6, 2006) — REAL Software, Inc., provider of REALbasic, cross-platform that really works, announced today that REALbasic 2006 Release 3 for Linux is available now. In addition to the over 100 features and fixes that have been added, REALbasic 2006 Release 3 for Linux has been specifically tested and optimized for use with SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop from Novell. SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop is the best Linux desktop on the market, stated Geoff Perlman, president and CEO of REAL Software. Rather than waiting for Vista we think many IT managers and CIOs will now make the move to Linux because it's more secure, less expensive, and much more open than Windows. And for those businesses who are still locked into Windows by their legacy Visual Basic applications, REAL Software will help move those applications to SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop. We look forward to helping Novell convert a lot of Windows shops to Linux. I wonder whether their embedded browser (like altBrowser) now works without tweaking in my Ubuntu Linux? I DO hope that Rev are not going to miss the boat AGAIN!! Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Bob Warren wrote: There are hundreds of Linux distros out there, all at different stages of development, and with slightly different characteristics - particularly in the details of the file system. In my view, such a situation is perfectly natural and normal, and it is just a question of time before commonly-agreed standards and greater uniformity arise. ... From a programming point of view, the current situation is very intimidating, not only for Runtime Revolution, but also for anyone hoping to program in Rev for Linux generally rather than for a particular distro. Not just for Rev folks, but really anyone interested in trying out Linux but discovers that they first need several days' worth of education to sort out *which* Linux they should go for. This plethora of distros is the single most destructive force the Linux community faces today. Not even Microsoft's misinformation campaign does as much damage to Linux adoption as the Linux community itself. In spite of the good intentions of these distro vendors, they really need to cut it out and pool their resources behind one or two of the leading ones, letting the rest either fade away or become more clearly identifiable as highly specialized variants not targeted at general consumers. I like the optimism you express at the end of that first paragaph above, but having been made somewhat more cynical by watching each new distro vendor pop up month after month with some misguided idea that theirs is somehow necessary and more precious than any other, I have to wonder: What can we as developers, users, and advocates do to hasten the demise of most Linux distros? Should we petition these vendors to stop polluting Linux mindspace with unnecessary variation? Is the Linux community mature enough yet to recognize the damage being done by this fragmentation, or are they still stuck in yesteryear's If you don't understand Linux you don't deserve to use Linux? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Bob Warren wrote: I wonder whether their [Realbasic's] embedded browser (like altBrowser) now works without tweaking in my Ubuntu Linux? --- Works perfectly without tweaking! I don't think I am being too provocative by suggesting that this represents a very loud wakeup call to Rev, do you? Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Bob- Thursday, July 6, 2006, 11:07:18 AM, you wrote: great list of live CDs at http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php which can be downloaded and burned. !!! Thanks for the link. I've got a few of those archived, but I had no idea this list existed... -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
What can we as developers, users, and advocates do to hasten the demise of most Linux distros? Seriously...should we pick off just the ones you disagree with or should we take a stick to distro vendors at random? You'll get my gentoo box when you pry it from my cold dead hands. -- cb ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
I wonder whether their embedded browser (like altBrowser) now works without tweaking in my Ubuntu Linux? I DO hope that Rev are not going to miss the boat AGAIN!! Hi Bob, Im not sure what you are asking here. Do you want Runtime to only test with one version of Linux? That is the only thing guaranteed by REAL's support SUSE in the press release. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks Worldwide Business Operations Runtime Revolution, Ltd ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Bob Warren wrote: I wonder whether their embedded browser (like altBrowser) now works without tweaking in my Ubuntu Linux? I DO hope that Rev are not going to miss the boat AGAIN!! Lynn Fredricks wrote: Hi Bob, Im not sure what you are asking here. Do you want Runtime to only test with one version of Linux? That is the only thing guaranteed by REAL's support SUSE in the press release. --- Hi Lynn, I'm not sure what you are asking either. If you are referring to what I said at the beginning of the thread, I would certainly not want Rev to test on only one version of Linux. However, what I did suggest was special attention to a restricted set of Linuxes (for various technical reasons), at least at the moment. What I was referring to in the sentences you quoted was the complete unavailability of altBrowser for Linux. Half a yonk ago (that word again), I asked Rev to fix this, since I needed it desperately. I was told that special changes to Rev were required so that Altuit could produce it, but that such changes would be made in the not-too-distant future. However, it turns out that the situation of altBrowser for Linux is not too different to the Coming soon of #2.7: it all depends on what you mean by soon! As an ordinary Studio user, I have no ET for the appearance of 2.7, and I certainly have no idea whether when it does eventually appear it will include the changes required for altBrowser, whether the necessary specialFolderPath functions will be implemented, etc. In other words, Rev has kept me (us) completely in the dark. I am not happy as a result. As for the sentence about Rev missing the boat, what I meant was that just as Rev failed to scoop up great numbers of VB6 orphans (of which I am one), it seems that they are also failing to satisfy their users requiring an embedded browser (in stark contrast to Realbasic). Note too that this question has a direct relationship with recent discussions on the UR-List regarding the use of the Internet, multimedia delivery, embedding Rev stacks in browsers, etc. The only difference is that the provision of an altBrowser-type embedded browser is much more fundamental. Regarding Realbasic's support of SUSE, I am not yet in a position to give an opinion on whether it is a good or a bad thing. What I do know regarding their embedded browser (called HTMLview) is that not only is it guaranteed to work on SUSE, it also works great on my (unsupported) Ubuntu. That's 100% better than I can do with Rev at the moment. If on the other hand you could give us SOME kind of good news regarding this browser issue in Linux, I would be very grateful. Being kept in the dark like this causes a lot of suffering. Regards, Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Mark Wieder wrote: Bob- Thursday, July 6, 2006, 11:07:18 AM, you wrote: great list of live CDs at http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php which can be downloaded and burned. !!! Thanks for the link. I've got a few of those archived, but I had no idea this list existed... Which outnumbers the other, linux software or linux distros? ;-) There are of course only a few that do stand above the rest, but the massive amounts of home brew distros really do dilute the market and confuse potential users. The other factor which works against linux is the amount of Window Managers available. Gnome and KDE being the most common. But KDE uses QT which has license issues which really leaves Gnome as the WM with the most potential at being the standard WM for linux. -Garrett ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Bob- Thursday, July 6, 2006, 11:07:18 AM, you wrote: The Rev for Linux Seal of Approval doesn't exist. I'd like to suggest it, but perhaps under the more practical heading of Currently approved Linux distros for use with the Runtime Revolution programming system. The Officially supported linux distros are Mandriva, RedHat, SuSE, and Linspire. All of these are mentioned during the installation process. And on the runrev web site. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Viktoras Didziulis wrote: I personally have Ubuntu linux (Debian family) installed on my laptop PC and PC as the second OS. Really happy with this. Earlier have tried Fedora Core, but this one used to have some annoyances with laptops and multimedia. Then switched to Scientific Linux, multimedia was OK, still the main annoyance was corrupted RPM and updating system due to the bug in Red Hat family Linuxes. They likely got fixed this now, but as I have already switched to Ubuntu - not going back to Red Hat ;-) . Regarding the criterions I would suggest taking compliance with LSB 3.1 standard as the main criteria because that's what all the standard is for... All serious Linuxes should implement this standard. Linuxes that are closiest to the imlementation of the LSB 3.1 are: Xandros, Red Hat, Novel, Ubuntu. Also Debian Common Core (DCC) Alliance - this means all Linuxes based on the stable Debian 3.1 (Sarge) are aiming at LSB 3.1. The DCC includes Knoppix, LinEx, Linspire, etc... -- Thanks for this great info Viktoras! Of course the adoption of such standards is very important, and we might presume that eventually various Linuxes will adhere to them. However, ordinary (non-geeky) users such as myself are more worried about whether they can use PPT, DOC, AVI, MP3, MPG,...and (dare I mention it?) MIDI files as they might have done using Windows, with easily-installable utility programs for displaying/editing them, and without hassle regarding broken packages, missing codecs, etc. I am not sure to what degree these things are provided for in the LSB 3.1 standard, but what I do know is that so far I have not managed to play such files in the great majority of the Linuxes I have tried. What I suggested at the beginning of this thread is that perhaps Rev could consider this aspect seriously before giving its seal of approval. In the last analysis, it's not much good if a given Linux distro theoretically supports a standard, but in the reality of its practice it either does not adhere to the standard, or regardless of the standard, produces a lousy Linux in this respect. In other words, a distro needs to prove itself to be good in real terms before Rev is prepared to recommend that its users should write programs for it. But perhaps I am asking a lot... Certainly, Rev getting luvvy-duvvy with one or more of the Linux producers (as I recommended a long time ago) would on the face of it be beneficial to both parties, and if Rev and Ubuntu got married to some degree, or even had a passing love-affair, I would, like you, be a happy man. Regards, Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
Hi Bob, I'm not sure what you are asking either. If you are referring to what I said at the beginning of the thread, I would certainly not want Rev to test on only one version of Linux. However, what I did suggest was special attention to a restricted set of Linuxes (for various technical reasons), at least at the moment. I don't think its really feasible to shoot broadly at all Linuxes - certainly a short list get the lion's share of attention and SuSE and RedHat wouldn't be too far off the mark for special attention. As for the sentence about Rev missing the boat, what I meant was that just as Rev failed to scoop up great numbers of VB6 orphans (of which I am one), it seems that they are also failing to satisfy their users requiring an embedded browser (in stark contrast to Realbasic). Note too that this question has a direct relationship with recent discussions on the UR-List regarding the use of the Internet, multimedia delivery, embedding Rev stacks in browsers, etc. The only difference is that the provision of an altBrowser-type embedded browser is much more fundamental. Regarding Realbasic's support of SUSE, I am not yet in a position to give an opinion on whether it is a good or a bad thing. What I do know regarding their embedded browser (called HTMLview) is that not only is it guaranteed to work on SUSE, it also works great on my (unsupported) Ubuntu. That's 100% better than I can do with Rev at the moment. The lack of a browser control in Rev is...a lack :-) We feel it. Since Altuit has been there to fill that need, its had a lower priority. I don't know what exactly needs to be fixed for Altbrowser to do its thing on Linux but Im sure when Linux gets the attention it needs, Chipp wont be shy about reminding us :-) Best regards, Lynn Fredricks Worldwide Business Operations Runtime Revolution, Ltd ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
On Friday 07 July 2006 06:38, chris bohnert wrote: You'll get my gentoo box when you pry it from my cold dead hands. Here here! And hello fellow Gentoo user! Bob Warren: 1. The distro runs or installs automatically (i.e. can be done by a layman) and configures all normal hardware, even on old machines, including Windows network printers, floppy diskette drives, etc. On the face of it, Gentoo fails your point 1 dismally! Gentoo is anything but a nice automated install. BUT in terms of hardware support, Gentoo will find a way, where many other distros have failed time and again. I ended up first installing Gentoo primarily due to other distros not being able to handle my hardware. I learnt a lot along the way and think Gentoo is the best distro at forcing you to actually learn how linux works. The point is, diversity is the strength of Linux. There will always pop into existence a distro that does what a certain group of users needs (no matter how small). The best thing is there is always choice. Something the Mac/Win models have always lacked. -- Rishi Viner -- Australia ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev for Linux Seal of Approval
On 7/7/06, Rishi Viner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 07 July 2006 06:38, chris bohnert wrote: You'll get my gentoo box when you pry it from my cold dead hands. Here here! And hello fellow Gentoo user! Bob Warren: 1. The distro runs or installs automatically (i.e. can be done by a layman) and configures all normal hardware, even on old machines, including Windows network printers, floppy diskette drives, etc. On the face of it, Gentoo fails your point 1 dismally! Gentoo is anything but a nice automated install. BUT in terms of hardware support, Gentoo will find a way, where many other distros have failed time and again. I ended up first installing Gentoo primarily due to other distros not being able to handle my hardware. I learnt a lot along the way and think Gentoo is the best distro at forcing you to actually learn how linux works. The point is, diversity is the strength of Linux. There will always pop into existence a distro that does what a certain group of users needs (no matter how small). The best thing is there is always choice. Something the Mac/Win models have always lacked. Anyone who wants a laugh might like a look at the Crazy Ubuntu Rumors Site :-) http://www.crazyapplerumors.com/?p=631#comments Cheers, Sarah P.S. Don't follow the link if you are offended by swearing. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
