Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Dan Shafer wrote: No, they wanted cover credit and a piece of the royalties so I hired a handicapped Tucan instead. So *that's* what they were screaming about at 7:30 Sunday morning. You should have hired them though, they work for peanuts. On 7/9/06, Judy Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But, does it feature a foreword from Jacque's parrots??? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Greg, Sorry, I've been in Hotlanta visiting my parents with the kiddies, so I'm weighing in WAAYYY LATE on this. But, for what it's worth, I'm a poster child for weak, infantile users... who could never program their way out of a paper sack... And have been since ever looking at Hypercard. It's true that you will see alot of real geeks on this list, but please don't confuse that with a bunch of folks who don't want to help the rest of us age/experience-limited folk. People may well laugh themselves nearly hysterical whenever I post some stupid question or other, but they nearly also always answer polititely and with real answers! And they mostly laugh to themselves or with me. I, too, would like to see some Roadster-ish plug-in.. not because I think net-delivery is superior to CD-delivery, but because that is what the lowest common denomenator desires (which perhaps makes it superior in a marketshare sense). Don't give up!! Judy On Sun, 2 Jul 2006, GregSmith wrote: Though I've only been reading this forum for a short time, I've now got the definite impression that the Revolution environment is for developers - hard core developers . . . well, programmers - hard core programmers . . . not weak, infantile users like myself, who could never program their way out of a paper sack. O.K., I was profoundly mistaken in thinking there was any validity to creating simple, in-browser content made with Revolution. It is obviously a much more sophisticated tool intended for a much more sophisticated audience. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Hmmm... despite the very long threads on their user list(s) entitled nail in the coffin that existed even 2 to 3 years ago? Yikes!! but you already know why I'm not fond of Director... Judy On Mon, 3 Jul 2006, Richard Gaskin wrote: Bill Marriott wrote: By a plug-in comparable [to Rev] I mean Director of course. Director's lingo is/was even a variant of HyperTalk, before it transmogrified into a multi-headed ECMAscript beast. Director is still available, serving the audience that needs it well. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
But, does it feature a foreword from Jacque's parrots??? Judy On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, Dan Shafer wrote: Too late. The Complete Book of AJAX: Or How I Learned to Love Pigeons Despite Their Poop coming soon to a bookstore near you. :-D Dan ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
No, they wanted cover credit and a piece of the royalties so I hired a handicapped Tucan instead. On 7/9/06, Judy Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But, does it feature a foreword from Jacque's parrots??? Judy On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, Dan Shafer wrote: Too late. The Complete Book of AJAX: Or How I Learned to Love Pigeons Despite Their Poop coming soon to a bookstore near you. :-D Dan ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Just to get down to brass tacks. I have no idea what all of these frameworks and languages are really intended to solve. I'm a consumer, not really a developer in the strict sense of the word. I use software to accomplish various presentation needs. I'm not that sophisticated or really all that technically oriented. I was simply looking at Revolution as a possible solution to a few of my needs along these multimedia lines. As a consumer, it was not that obvious to me what Revolution was initially intended for, what its limitations were or what it definitely was not designed to do. This has all been an exercise in finding out, for me. So, now I found out. Still, many multimedia authoring applications that exist today have at least some of the functionality that Revolution has, and most of them support display within standard web browsers. This is pretty much the norm. It was a Revelation to me that Revolution did not offer similar translatability, or portability or whatever it is that you technocrats call it. I was just looking for a tool that did not have the Adobe label and did a lot of the same stuff that Flash does, but wasn't as expensive. Guess Revolution isn't the ticket for me. Thanks, Greg Smith -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/What%27s-The-Verdict%2C-Web-or-Not--tf1876146.html#a5176782 Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Well, you got me on Viewpoint! But, do I hear you correctly that you are saying coding in Rev is a waste of time? Seriously? Chipp Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/4/06, Bill Marriott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no such thing as a plugin war and never has been one -- people can and do have multiple plugins. New ones are still being created. It's not a zero-sum game. No comparison to the browser war which apparently still rages on. The simple fact is, most website producers and developers are NOT interested in adding other plugin requirements for websites. And...many producers and developers are interested in AJAX, DOM. Last I checked, ViewPoint/Enliven was doing quite nicely. Guess you haven't checked lately. There last Quarterly report announces a 45% decrease from last quarter and 29% decrease from the quarter a year ago. Plus they've announced a 30% layoff after closing on a $5.1M round less than a year ago. I don't know about your company, but the VC's I've had on my board wouldn't be happy with those numbers. Let's get serious -- If the future is in AJAX, DOM, Jscript and Frameworks then we're all wasting our time coding in TranScript or xTalk or whatever you want to call it, as none of those technologies speak our language. We might as well invest our time learning those technologies if you're right and we're worth our salt. Now, that's the first point you've made that I agree with! -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Bill, No, not a waste of time, but I agree with your point: We might as well invest our time learning those technologies if you're right and we're worth our salt. Frankly, I mentioned to Dan Shafer earlier this evening, I wish I had the same prowess in AJAX as I do in Rev, as I'm sure I'd have more business-- and for sure a larger market- and one not dominated by a single company. While I suppose they're on the right track these days, they do keep changing course, especially with their low-end product. Don't get me wrong. I really *enjoy* working with RunRev. It frankly bothers me that there's not a serious buzz about how absolutely (to use a Steve Jobs phrase) 'insanely great' this tool REALLY is! But the limited resources of a small company, no matter how wisely spent, prevent this development system from gaining wide acceptance. As this thread clearly points out, newcomers (aka Greg) have a hard time figuring out what RR's good for. The fact I can build a complete cross-platform application for a client, soups to nuts, in only a couple of days is simply lost on a majority of potential users. Case in point. A couple of months ago, on a Tuesday afternoon, a client asked me to built a Chart Wizard tool for creating dashboard images for PowerPoint presentations. Said he needed it by end of day Wednesday. Mac version: http://www.gadgetplugins.com/chippstuff/ChartWizard_Setup.dmg PC version: www.gadgetplugins.com/chippstuff/ChartWizard.zip You can't get any faster than that in RAD tools (as far as I know). Sure, I have some pre-built libraries (but not the chart one), and some tools to help me with layout management and interface, but still-- less than 2 days is really fast. And it's not because I'm a great programmer, it's really the tool that's great. All that said, We still don't have paying clients knocking down our doors with apps in hand. Lots of reasons, but IMO, the biggest is the lack of exposure of RR in Enterprise or really anywhere else. Not even sure if one would really consider it Enterprise software? One more story before signing off. I met with Eric Schmidt back when he was CTO for Sun at one of those 'networking conferences' in Palm Springs. We chatted a bit and he asked me about Java and how our company liked it. I told him it was 'way too slow' for multimedia apps-- which our company built. He replied, Yes, but as long as we stay visible and continue improving, and keep the buzz up, it won't matter. Of course he was correct. I was talking about technology, he was talking about marketing. That same mistake is made over and over by us techno-dweebs, who have difficulty understanding even crappy products, marketed well, succeed (think WalMart). Funny sidenote: Macromedia had a great (FAST) product in Director back then, but forced everyone to place a Made with Director label on everything done, which effectively moved them ONLY to the minor leagues and eventually OFF the playing field. IMO, Director could have competed with JAVA if some changes were made. Heck, even HC could compete if targeted correctly. Nowdays, even hardcore C types are looking seriously into all sorts of scripting languages, from Flash (ActionScript) to Python, Ruby, etc.. No doubt HyperTalk could've competed. So, yes, I would like to be able to code as quickly and efficiently in AJAX,DOM, whatever, but sadly, I think I'm already too spoiled using RunRev. best, Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Whew :) I'm glad you weren't saying it's a waste of time!! For me, what makes the product amazing is the language itself. It truly is enjoyable to write code in xTalk/transcript/Revolution. I've long wondered what the legal side of things was all about ... can anyone with the smarts, energy, and time make a HyperTalk variant? Chipp Walters wrote: Frankly, I mentioned to Dan Shafer earlier this evening, I wish I had the same prowess in AJAX as I do in Rev, as I'm sure I'd have more business-- and for sure a larger market- and one not dominated by a single company. No kidding. AJAX is ultimately just a way to code web pages and servers so they do bite sized transactions within a page, rather than reloading the whole ball of wax at every user interaction. It's a baby step closer to how a real application works, but still far short of what is possible when coding an application. Can you imagine if you had a nice, integrated client-server model, fully-fleshed out, based on transcript? How much fun would that be? It frankly bothers me that there's not a serious buzz about how absolutely (to use a Steve Jobs phrase) 'insanely great' this tool REALLY is! But the limited resources of a small company, no matter how wisely spent, prevent this development system from gaining wide acceptance. As this thread clearly points out, newcomers (aka Greg) have a hard time figuring out what RR's good for. I remember when HyperCard first came out, one of my friends was very dismissive of it, saying what kind of database program doesn't print labels? He looks at HyperCard and saw a database program. Others looked at it and saw a multimedia tool. Others saw a programming language, etc. I think Rev still suffers from this identity crisis to an extent. The fact I can build a complete cross-platform application for a client, soups to nuts, in only a couple of days is simply lost on a majority of potential users. Case in point. A couple of months ago, on a Tuesday afternoon, a client asked me to built a Chart Wizard tool for creating dashboard images for PowerPoint presentations. Said he needed it by end of day Wednesday. You can't get any faster than that in RAD tools (as far as I know). Sure, I have some pre-built libraries (but not the chart one), and some tools to help me with layout management and interface, but still-- less than 2 days is really fast. And it's not because I'm a great programmer, it's really the tool that's great. I wrote a client-server application in just over 4 days with Rev. I'm not saying it's the greatest thing ever, but you can find the standalone at http://merryotter.com/stocksensor. Hundreds of people have had access to the same XML-based server data-source I did, and wrote some competing utilities in things ranging from VB.net to JavaScript. Mine is the fastest and most powerful out there, took the least amount of time to build, and is used by most of the top 10 traders in that game. While it's running, it uses about 3MB of RAM at most. The official web-based interface for that game uses 32MB to 35MB and is slow, slow, slow. That link has the standalone; if you're interested contact me off-list for the Rev stack. Come to think... what it really needs is a decent chart facility :) All that said, We still don't have paying clients knocking down our doors with apps in hand. Lots of reasons, but IMO, the biggest is the lack of exposure of RR in Enterprise or really anywhere else. Not even sure if one would really consider it Enterprise software? I'll attribute it to a conspiracy on the part of white-robed programmer elites who want to ensure only the blessed have access to computing power :) So, yes, I would like to be able to code as quickly and efficiently in AJAX,DOM, whatever, but sadly, I think I'm already too spoiled using RunRev. I think we're all spoiled in that way, which is why we (or, at least, I) want to extend our posh, comfy environs to the Web. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
This thread has gone on a bit, but I just wanted to chime in. The main reason we are getting pressure to deliver a browser-based solution is that schools do not want to go and touch each machine to install anything. This includes a new plug-in. Requiring plug-in removes the reason for wanting a browser-based product. Granted, Revolution could deliver the same thing with a small runtime that is installed on a server someplace, eliminating the need to install anything on the client, but then everything would have to be redone in Revolution. At 10:42 PM 7/4/2006, you wrote: There is no such thing as a plugin war and never has been one -- people can and do have multiple plugins. New ones are still being created. It's not a zero-sum game. No comparison to the browser war which apparently still rages on. Peter T. Evensen http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com 314-629-5248 or 888-682-4588 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Peter T. Evensen wrote: This thread has gone on a bit, but I just wanted to chime in. The main reason we are getting pressure to deliver a browser-based solution is that schools do not want to go and touch each machine to install anything. This includes a new plug-in. Requiring plug-in removes the reason for wanting a browser-based product. That's been the primary concern with every IT manager I've spoken with on this issue as well. With consumers it's not a problem: most of them will simply not download and install the plugin, so it's no problem for them to just move on to any other page on the web. ;) Granted, Revolution could deliver the same thing with a small runtime that is installed on a server someplace, eliminating the need to install anything on the client, You'd still need some sort of client to run downloaded elements, unless I misunderstand the scenario you envision. but then everything would have to be redone in Revolution. Repurposing content is a major task that ultimately affects us all at one time or another. May I ask what sort of formats these content elements are currently in? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
What I meant below was that you could write a Revolution standalone that requires nothing to be installed on each workstation. Simply install that (and whatever stacks and media you need, if you don't pull that off the web) on a server in the institution, and run the standalone from the server. The Revolution would be the client in this scenario, but would require no modification to the workstations. This would give you the same end result that IT managers are desiring, just not in a web-browser. At 10:02 AM 7/5/2006, you wrote: Peter T. Evensen wrote: Granted, Revolution could deliver the same thing with a small runtime that is installed on a server someplace, eliminating the need to install anything on the client, You'd still need some sort of client to run downloaded elements, unless I misunderstand the scenario you envision. Peter T. Evensen http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com 314-629-5248 or 888-682-4588 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
This is the first time that I've heard AJAX understandably explained and defined! Their web site doesn't even do that. They already assume you know. thanks Andre, sqb AJAX is Asynchronous Javascript + XML, what does that means? Till now, everytime your web app wanted to do something it needed to do a roundtrip to the server and refresh everything. Think of an airplane full of cargo and that everytime you want to move some message package arround you'd load and unload ... andre -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Stephen Barncard wrote: This is the first time that I've heard AJAX understandably explained and defined! Their web site doesn't even do that. They already assume you know. AJAX (aka JavaScript/DHTML) is an open standard -- who is they? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Hi I really hope AJAX gets replaced with something better.. soon because it can be a pain to implement :) .. especially when compared to a tool like rev, which as an all-round development tool makes the same things possible with less hassle. AJAX does what is does but can not be considered to be as a productive tool as any good IDE. Rev has come a long way in many aspects to the Metacard days but isn't perfect.. damn I wish we had a better default table object :) Adobe's Flash has also come along way but like AJAX it's main delivery device is a internet browser. Where does that leave us rev-users? Well we've recently had Altuit's great altBrowser so now we can embed a browser instance into out own interfaces... great! A rev plugin would be nice but I'd rather have a better rev. Bring on multi-threading.. bring on the ability to easily access data in a stack file without loading the whole frigging thing into memory.. back to basics that make computer languages useful. Personally I don't want to built a better internet browser, I want to build better software. I also think the plugin path is a long path that may not satisfy everyone unless it is a simple process for the end user. Anyway.. just my 2c regards alex ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Stephen, you know, you made a pigeon english speaker happy today I plan to put out some pages explaining this thing... I am just trying to get my stuff packed for release, and just for the kicks, I'll put some AJAX on my site and allow folks do download everything. Cheers andre On Jul 5, 2006, at 12:48 PM, Stephen Barncard wrote: This is the first time that I've heard AJAX understandably explained and defined! Their web site doesn't even do that. They already assume you know. thanks Andre, sqb AJAX is Asynchronous Javascript + XML, what does that means? Till now, everytime your web app wanted to do something it needed to do a roundtrip to the server and refresh everything. Think of an airplane full of cargo and that everytime you want to move some message package arround you'd load and unload ... andre -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
They might me the evil conglomerate of O'Reilly and Friends that coins things like Web 2.0 and AJAX and other acronyms that means nothing but sells books (heck even I have a Foundations of AJAX book... as if this thing was new and not been around since 2000) Andre On Jul 5, 2006, at 12:57 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Stephen Barncard wrote: This is the first time that I've heard AJAX understandably explained and defined! Their web site doesn't even do that. They already assume you know. AJAX (aka JavaScript/DHTML) is an open standard -- who is they? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Actually I was thinking about Ruby on Rails. And it was a while ago. They've upgraded their web site and they do explain now. Sorry. My bad. http://www.rubyonrails.org/ There is an Ajax.org http://ajax.org/ but it's not official -- and they explain. and then there's the original: http://www.colgate.com/app/Colgate/US/HC/Products/Dishwashing/Ajax.cvsp Stephen Barncard wrote: This is the first time that I've heard AJAX understandably explained and defined! Their web site doesn't even do that. They already assume you know. AJAX (aka JavaScript/DHTML) is an open standard -- who is they? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Packagng up neatly things that have been around a while and writing documentation about the resulting thing is valuable work and makes a useful contribution to the technology culture. I consider myself to be fairly conversant with Web development technologies, particulalry JavaScript and CSS, about which I have written books and which I've used in lots of projects. However, the implications of the XMLHTTPRequest object that is at the heart of the key concept in AJAX escaped my attention for a long while. That's because it was originally implemented by MS as an IE-only technology (ActiveX components) and were therefore of little interest to me. There is a lot of disparagement in this and related threads on this board of the Web interface, but unless you've spent some time really looking at what can be done with the UI in a browser when you can eliminate the repeated server round-trips and full-page refreshes of the old Web, you really can't know for sure whether those limitations are real or not. I've been quite shocked by the fine quality of the UI in many AJAX applications (as have many thousands of others). They approach, but do not quite yet reach, the fluidity and transparency of a true application interface. And in situations like those that have been described by educators and some IT directors directly and indirectly here, the browser deliverability of the applications is often seen as a huge win. Your recent comparison of this technology to smart pigeons replacing bloated airline freight hauling was, by the way, brillilantly on target. I'm going to steal it in talking with clients. Maybe you should have copyrighted it! LOL On 7/5/06, Andre Garzia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They might me the evil conglomerate of O'Reilly and Friends that coins things like Web 2.0 and AJAX and other acronyms that means nothing but sells books (heck even I have a Foundations of AJAX book... as if this thing was new and not been around since 2000) Andre On Jul 5, 2006, at 12:57 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Stephen Barncard wrote: This is the first time that I've heard AJAX understandably explained and defined! Their web site doesn't even do that. They already assume you know. AJAX (aka JavaScript/DHTML) is an open standard -- who is they? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Quick, Andre, before Dan uses it in a book! At 11:30 AM 7/5/2006, you wrote: Your recent comparison of this technology to smart pigeons replacing bloated airline freight hauling was, by the way, brillilantly on target. I'm going to steal it in talking with clients. Maybe you should have copyrighted it! LOL Peter T. Evensen http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com 314-629-5248 or 888-682-4588 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Too late. The Complete Book of AJAX: Or How I Learned to Love Pigeons Despite Their Poop coming soon to a bookstore near you. :-D Dan On 7/5/06, Peter T. Evensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quick, Andre, before Dan uses it in a book! At 11:30 AM 7/5/2006, you wrote: Your recent comparison of this technology to smart pigeons replacing bloated airline freight hauling was, by the way, brillilantly on target. I'm going to steal it in talking with clients. Maybe you should have copyrighted it! LOL Peter T. Evensen http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com 314-629-5248 or 888-682-4588 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Dan- Wednesday, July 5, 2006, 11:22:19 AM, you wrote: Too late. The Complete Book of AJAX: Or How I Learned to Love Pigeons Despite Their Poop coming soon to a bookstore near you. The Straight Poop On Ajax -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Dan and Mark, Please feather back your comments. Most eagle-eyed lurkers will note that this thread originated from an honest birds-eye view discussing alternatives to nesting a version of Rev within a browser. It's obviously now devolved into a flock of silly sophmoric orinthology references. Well, as they say: Birds of a feather... ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Dan, can I have a free copy, please, pretty pretty please :-) PS: I am trying to draw pigeons to be actors in a AJAX help page I'll be putting up... Cheers andre On Jul 5, 2006, at 3:59 PM, Mark Wieder wrote: Dan- Wednesday, July 5, 2006, 11:22:19 AM, you wrote: Too late. The Complete Book of AJAX: Or How I Learned to Love Pigeons Despite Their Poop coming soon to a bookstore near you. The Straight Poop On Ajax -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Gregg, This is definitely not the case. This forum has some great programmers that have always been able and willing to teach the newbies like I was and if it were not for them I would never have been able to get good enough to start my own business using Rev as my main tool. Everyone on this list was helpful in teaching me how to use Rev and more importantly how to look at coding in a professional way so that I could grow and prosper. I started out with HC and moved to SC and roadster but eventually gave up on the idea of a web side app because I always expected the browser to act like a full fledged application and it is just too limiting an environment for that. Instead, an application that integrates web components truly is more powerful and useful for me. That said most people on the list also have strong opinions about the tool and world they live and work with. So you must expect a topic like this to spark a flurry of responses and opinions on the matter. The trick for me is to stay open minded to new ways of looking at things and not get stuck in my own view of things. I started out feeling that a plugin was a necessity and since then have realized that the alternatives are much better and work better. I was stuck in old thinking for awhile and eventually changed my mind. Tom On Jul 2, 2006, at 10:22 PM, GregSmith wrote: Though I've only been reading this forum for a short time, I've now got the definite impression that the Revolution environment is for developers - hard core developers . . . well, programmers - hard core programmers . . . not weak, infantile users like myself, who could never program their way out of a paper sack. Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lazy River Software - http://www.lazyriversoftware.com Lazy River Metal Art™ - http://www.lazyriversoftware.com/metal.html Meeting Wear - http://www.cafepress.com/meetingwear Semantic Compaction Systems - http://www.minspeak.com SCIconics, LLC - http://www.sciconics.com/sciindex.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Hey Richard, I know you know this. The browser plugin wars are over. Macromedia won (with Flash), end of storyat least that's what any investor worth his salt will tell you. Richard, I agree with you, the future is AJAX, DOM, Jscript and Frameworks. Just check out what the investors ARE investing in. I know you remeber Meta-Creations. They sold their whole company (tons of great programs) and everything in it, lock, stock and barrel and bet their future on a plugin. That was 7 years ago, and just look how far they've come! Let's all get serious, perhaps it is technically feasible..or not. But's it definitely not feasible marketing-wise. I mean who in their right mind would believe a company with RR's resources could/would ever execute such a late-stage plugin wars strategy??? The marketing considerations alone are staggering. Perhaps if RR was sold to Google or IBM or someone with the resources, but even then I doubt we'd see a RR native plugin. -Chipp On 7/3/06, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't found an investor willing to back it. Maybe I'm just not well connected. I would enjoy seeing anyone able demonstrate the business case for this plugin with an investor willing to underwrite it. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Chipp.. I agree with you 1000%. New browser functionality has to come either in Java applets (yuk), Flash apps (less yukky and even some good things about the platform), streaming multimedia (QT/WMP/MP3/Real seem viable), or AJAX/DHTML. I'm greatly intrigued by the idea of buliding a Revolution tool for creating Web apps. The Rev tool would spit out AJAX/DHTML code which could then be deployed on a server. I'm early in the process of studying the issues involved there but that could be a real win-win. But a Rev browser plug-in? Not likely. On 7/4/06, Chipp Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The browser plugin wars are over. Macromedia won (with Flash), end of storyat least that's what any investor worth his salt will tell you. -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
There is no such thing as a plugin war and never has been one -- people can and do have multiple plugins. New ones are still being created. It's not a zero-sum game. No comparison to the browser war which apparently still rages on. Last I checked, ViewPoint/Enliven was doing quite nicely. They have a significant share of the market for presenting 3D models in browsers. They compete with Anark, WildTangent, and Holomatix, among others. One wonders how so many plugins for just one segment of the market could survive if the only game in town was Flash. Let's get serious -- If the future is in AJAX, DOM, Jscript and Frameworks then we're all wasting our time coding in TranScript or xTalk or whatever you want to call it, as none of those technologies speak our language. We might as well invest our time learning those technologies if you're right and we're worth our salt. Chipp Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey Richard, I know you know this. The browser plugin wars are over. Macromedia won (with Flash), end of storyat least that's what any investor worth his salt will tell you. Richard, I agree with you, the future is AJAX, DOM, Jscript and Frameworks. Just check out what the investors ARE investing in. I know you remeber Meta-Creations. They sold their whole company (tons of great programs) and everything in it, lock, stock and barrel and bet their future on a plugin. That was 7 years ago, and just look how far they've come! Let's all get serious, perhaps it is technically feasible..or not. But's it definitely not feasible marketing-wise. I mean who in their right mind would believe a company with RR's resources could/would ever execute such a late-stage plugin wars strategy??? The marketing considerations alone are staggering. Perhaps if RR was sold to Google or IBM or someone with the resources, but even then I doubt we'd see a RR native plugin. -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
On 7/4/06, Bill Marriott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no such thing as a plugin war and never has been one -- people can and do have multiple plugins. New ones are still being created. It's not a zero-sum game. No comparison to the browser war which apparently still rages on. The simple fact is, most website producers and developers are NOT interested in adding other plugin requirements for websites. And...many producers and developers are interested in AJAX, DOM. Last I checked, ViewPoint/Enliven was doing quite nicely. Guess you haven't checked lately. There last Quarterly report announces a 45% decrease from last quarter and 29% decrease from the quarter a year ago. Plus they've announced a 30% layoff after closing on a $5.1M round less than a year ago. I don't know about your company, but the VC's I've had on my board wouldn't be happy with those numbers. Let's get serious -- If the future is in AJAX, DOM, Jscript and Frameworks then we're all wasting our time coding in TranScript or xTalk or whatever you want to call it, as none of those technologies speak our language. We might as well invest our time learning those technologies if you're right and we're worth our salt. Now, that's the first point you've made that I agree with! -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Of course, they might expect me to spell 'Their' correctly!!! On 7/4/06, Chipp Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guess you haven't checked lately. There last Quarterly report announces a 45% decrease from last quarter and 29% decrease from the quarter a year ago. Plus they've announced a 30% layoff after closing on a $5.1M round less than a year ago. I don't know about your company, but the VC's I've had on my board wouldn't be happy with those numbers. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Bill, I think Chipp meant the future of applications based on web browser containers is Ajax and the DOM. We keep coding in transcript for the following reasons: * Revolution native interface provides better user experience than browser based interfaces. * Revolution native applications have more features than it's browser based cousins. * Revolution apps will work away from an internet pipe, try that with an online app. * No way in this earth that a browser based app will ever be able to launch a 100 megabytes document to work with... not matter how clever your ajax skills are. Ajax is nothing new. Ajax is simply a hack. Ajax is on the client browser side, on the server side you can have Rev, Ruby, Rebol or your favorite language (even if it starts with another letter than R). Ajax is not here to replace desktop apps. For some things it makes sense to have a online web based experience, for example, Conference Web Pages, someone organizing a conference would be happy to be able to code a little thing in Rev for the conference users to register/login and see conference features. No one is thinking about having a web based photoshop editor able to handle RAW format files... it all depends on what you're trying to build... A friend of mine is on the operating system business and will not use anything but C/C++ and he is right (gosh, never though I'd speak good of C...), I am on the network appliances business so I code in transcript because it enables me to build desktop apps that are network savvy, some other guy might be on the Web Shopping Cart wars using RoR+Ajax. We would all be correct and no one could call its option, the future. Latelly, this list is mixing apples and epiletic porpoises. Not all computer languages and computer authoring tools are made to do the same job. People keep comparing Rev to Flash to AJAX... They are very different things made to do different stuff. We can't compare them, it's like saying Photoshop is better than MS SQL Server because it has a better looking splash screen, it makes no sense. AJAX is Asynchronous Javascript + XML, what does that means? Till now, everytime your web app wanted to do something it needed to do a roundtrip to the server and refresh everything. Think of an airplane full of cargo and that everytime you want to move some message package arround you'd load and unload the whole airplane in both destinations. This takes time and effort. Now imagine that AJAX is just a super clever flock of strong pigeons, you can have how many pigeons you want. Everytime you need to send messages around, you'll just dispatch a new pigeon to roundtrip with your message, no need to load and reload everything, just launch your pigeons as your needs arrive. It's fast, it's cheap and its asynchronous because while some poor pigeon might be carrying a very heavy message that will take eons to be read and understood, the other pigeons might be carrying quick messages so your business is never stopped while the airplane business is forever waiting for the baggage carrousels to start so that they might then see the mail packages... I don't know if this is a clear comparision but I've been thinking a lot about airplanes later. The thing is, AJAX exists inside a browser, inside a web page, it's just some fancy javascript code that will breed and dispatch pigeons as needed. On the server side you might have anything you want including Rev. They are not competting technologies, actually they might complete each other. You can have your business logic code in transcript on a server CGI easy to mantain and update and have your clients with a nice browser GUI that is very responsive by using AJAX skills... I'l put some pages online about that... andre On Jul 5, 2006, at 12:42 AM, Bill Marriott wrote: Let's get serious -- If the future is in AJAX, DOM, Jscript and Frameworks then we're all wasting our time coding in TranScript or xTalk or whatever you want to call it, as none of those technologies speak our language. We might as well invest our time learning those technologies if you're right and we're worth our salt. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Andre, not bad for pigeon english!!! (Someone had to say it) You are too funny with all the analogies of airports, baggage etc...ROFL!!! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Resources is one thing; bugs are another. (And did you mean, system resources, or company resources?) Sophisticated Flash solutions can take up several megabytes of RAM. More than a similar Rev standalone, in some cases. As for Roadster, I am sure that Apple didn't particularly care about making it cross-platform; they're funny/weird that way. (Apple *still* offers a non-xplat plug-in architecture.) I meant company resources - Supercard made a lot of us wary of these kinds of projects for better or worse, as it ate up several companies along the way. Windows port, browser plugin, they both quite literally sunk small companies. BTW - Supercard was not an Apple product - only Hypercard was. Supercard was owned by a string of small companies much like RunRev (in size, I must say RunRev has had more success than any of them IMO). By a plug-in comparable [to Rev] I mean Director of course. Director's lingo is/was even a variant of HyperTalk, before it transmogrified into a multi-headed ECMAscript beast. Fair enough. I would argue that Director was still not a RAD tool and more of a media-creation application... but, it's almost hopeless to argue that one and probably should be tabled =). In one of my earlier posts, I did comment that the browser sandbox would be the hardest aspect of a Rev plugin. Presumably one wouldn't be able to access the local system at all. And you wouldn't be able to spawn new windows, either. Not all technical issues are spurious but some of the ones bandied about certainly are. By the way... Clearly this is about using Rev to write stacks that target the browser... not to expect to run any Rev stack without modification within a browser window. Fair enough. FWIW, there is the ability to run Rev stacks in safe mode already and block file system access. The system property isn't coming to mind now, but it's there. Yes... it's a big job. My point is NOT that Oh those Rev folks are so mean, they could just wave a hand and give us something we want, effortlessly. There are issues, sure. Solvable ones. I reject the claim that Rev is not appropriate for web delivery, or inherently incompatible with the concept, as spurious. Well I'll be honest - I'm much more in the camp of not wanting RunRev to use it's resources for this than I am of the mind that I wouldn't like to see it. I think many (perhaps even most) regulars here on the Rev list have accepted the niche Revolution has found and hopes it continues to be maintained and thrive in that niche. We feel lucky that Rev, such as it is, even exists... let alone that it works as well as it does to create real applications on the big three OS platforms. But you know, there is no President Bush who is going to declare our coral reef a wildlife sanctuary. Rev is going to have to adapt long term to survive, in my opinion. I think that means eventually running on the Web -- the latest and most important platform out there. As Stephen Hawking said, Leave Earth or die! :) Mostly agree. I don't necessarily think it's on the critical survival path for Rev, HOWEVER, I would surely get a kick out of seeing it happen. Here's on last thought, before I should probably rest my thoughts on the issue: Metacard Corp. used to license embedded Metacard to developers with very special needs who needed to link Metacard (Revolution) directly into their own custom applications as a C-code library. If a 3rd party group could convince RunRev to license the code out, it could be conceivably the best of both worlds: a browser plugin developed without RunRev as a company taking such a big risk with it's resources. I would be more than happy myself to even pitch in a little. - Brian ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Bill Marriott wrote: By a plug-in comparable [to Rev] I mean Director of course. Director's lingo is/was even a variant of HyperTalk, before it transmogrified into a multi-headed ECMAscript beast. Director is still available, serving the audience that needs it well. In one of my earlier posts, I did comment that the browser sandbox would be the hardest aspect of a Rev plugin. Presumably one wouldn't be able to access the local system at all. And you wouldn't be able to spawn new windows, either. Not all technical issues are spurious but some of the ones bandied about certainly are. By the way... Clearly this is about using Rev to write stacks that target the browser... not to expect to run any Rev stack without modification within a browser window. Exactly. Since there's only a subset of things which are worth putting into a browser window, why not use the engine already in the browser as the presentation layer: JavaScript/DHTML? Anyway, perhaps we can agree - there are more than spurious technical hurdles, but some of us think they would be worth it (even though I do not). Yes... it's a big job. I haven't found an investor willing to back it. Maybe I'm just not well connected. I would enjoy seeing anyone able demonstrate the business case for this plugin with an investor willing to underwrite it. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
I didn't realize you were devoting your life searching for an investor to underwrite a plug-in you don't believe it. :) I haven't found an investor willing to back it. Maybe I'm just not well connected. I would enjoy seeing anyone able demonstrate the business case for this plugin with an investor willing to underwrite it. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Brian Yennie wrote: I meant company resources - Supercard made a lot of us wary of these kinds of projects for better or worse, as it ate up several companies along the way. Windows port, browser plugin, they both quite literally sunk small companies. BTW - Supercard was not an Apple product - only Hypercard was. Supercard was owned by a string of small companies much like RunRev (in size, I must say RunRev has had more success than any of them IMO). Well, I think the SuperCard example ultimately works against the someone tried it before and failed miserably so it shouldn't be tried again line of reasoning. A lot of us aren't using SuperCard because it doesn't run on Windows. I certainly share the *impression* that RunRev is a much healthier company -- perhaps in no small part because of its xplat ability. RunRev Studio's tagline is, Code once, deploy everywhere, isn't it? One company's albatross is another's eagle. Or perhaps I mean, blue jay? Going to the RunRev homepage I see a cute little banner, Avoid Extinction with Universal Binary Support ... the sad dinosaurs are SuperCard users? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Bill Marriott wrote: I just hope that people don't confuse won't get it with don't need it Have you considered the possibility that your needs may be different from others'? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
What a non-sequiter, Richard... Whether they are or not is irrelevant; won't get it and don't need it are two separate states and shouldn't be jumbled up. It's as if I said, Driving 120 miles per hour may be unsafe, but it's not impossible and you replied, But people want to drive at different speeds. Obviously for whatever motives, some people aren't enthusiastic about a browser plug-in that could run Rev code. [Hey, some people apparently don't like chocolate and peanut butter together, either.] That is fine, but don't dismiss it on spurious technical grounds, because there really aren't any. (Or at least not any more than any other comparable plug-in.) Actually... as long as we've migrated to speed metaphors... the whole debate reminds me of a series of commercials for Comcast internet. This series features a pair of turtles, called the Slowskys, who love DSL so much that they've become DSL's national spoke-turtles. [The joke/selling point is that Comcast cable is 8x faster than DSL.] As you can imagine, the Slowskys don't like things fast. http://theslowskys.com/ Anyway, I wouldn't worry about a browser plug-in. This whole web thing is just a fad that will be over before you know it. CD-ROMS, that's the future. I just hope that people don't confuse won't get it with don't need it Have you considered the possibility that your needs may be different from others'? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Though I've only been reading this forum for a short time, I've now got the definite impression that the Revolution environment is for developers - hard core developers . . . well, programmers - hard core programmers . . . not weak, infantile users like myself, who could never program their way out of a paper sack. O.K., I was profoundly mistaken in thinking there was any validity to creating simple, in-browser content made with Revolution. It is obviously a much more sophisticated tool intended for a much more sophisticated audience. And, I agree with Bill Marriot. CD-Roms are the wave of the future. Greg Smith -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/What%27s-The-Verdict%2C-Web-or-Not--tf1876146.html#a5145809 Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
On Jul 2, 2006, at 9:22 PM, GregSmith wrote: Though I've only been reading this forum for a short time, I've now got the definite impression that the Revolution environment is for developers - hard core developers . . . well, programmers - hard core programmers . . . not weak, infantile users like myself, who could never program their way out of a paper sack. O.K., I was profoundly mistaken in thinking there was any validity to creating simple, in-browser content made with Revolution. It is obviously a much more sophisticated tool intended for a much more sophisticated audience. I think you may have gotten the wrong impression; Revolution, while not HyperCard, is, IMHO, very usable by reasonably competent users as well as by hard core programmers to make what it was intended for, desktop software. I have no doubt that you could create a useful Rev stack in a short time if you decided you wanted to even if you have never written a program before. There is no doubt that Rev is a powerful environment that can and is used by sophisticated hard core programmers to create sophisticated software but that doesn't make it unusable by us lesser mortals. However, Rev is not software for rendering in-browser content. That's not what it's intended for. It might be very cool if someday someone created a browser plugin to render Rev window content in a browser but the fact that it is not available today does not mean that it is only intended for a much more sophisticated audience. Nor does the fact that its programming language can be used by relatively sophisticated users for scripting CGI's mean that it's suitable for rendering html whether by hard core programmers or by weak, infantile users (although anyone who really is a weak, infantile user would be unlikely to have ever found there way here in the first place.) In concluding that because Rev is not a good tool for creating simple, in-browser content and therefore it is only for hard core programmers, you are comparing apples and oranges. Such a conclusion makes no more sense that complaining than would condemning Word because it can't be used to do photoediting; there are lots of reasons to complain about Word but that would not be one of them. Spence James P. Spencer Rochester, MN [EMAIL PROTECTED] Badges?? We don't need no stinkin badges! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Bill, Richard, et al, I won't touch the don't need it debate with a ten foot pole at this point. Personally, I don't need it and would prefer to use any of the other fine tools for browser-based content, HOWEVER, I see no problem with anyone else salivating over a Rev plugin. Heck, I'd probably find some use for it if there was one. What I wanted to comment on is: That is fine, but don't dismiss it on spurious technical grounds, because there really aren't any. (Or at least not any more than any other comparable plug-in.) It's not spurious. There's history here. Roadster (Supercard web plugin) did an excellent job of sucking resources and falling on it's face with a company similarly equipped to RunRev (i.e., small). And Roadster was a significantly smaller technical feat, because it only ran on one platform. Revolution is hugely intertwined with OS-specific calls, file system access, multiple windows and a ton of other stuff that just doesn't fit in a browser window. I'm not saying it's impossible. Of course it's not. But raising technical objections is quite sound here. I've written externals for Revolution, compiled and modified Mozilla from the source, am familiar with the browser plugin API -- and I can barely imagine trying to fit Revolution in there. It's a much taller task than any plugin I know of. There ARE technical reasons why you don't see entire RAD environments running inside browsers. And no, Flash is not a RAD tool. Anyway, perhaps we can agree - there are more than spurious technical hurdles, but some of us think they would be worth it (even though I do not). - Brian ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
It's not a reason to complain about Word because, well, you *can* edit photos with it http://www.wjm.org/linked/word-photo.gif (and draw simple graphics... and [cough] display its content in a web browser) James Spencer wrote... Such a conclusion makes no more sense that complaining than would condemning Word because it can't be used to do photoediting; there are lots of reasons to complain about Word but that would not be one of them. [I think some of Greg's sarcasm was lost on you] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
On 7/3/06, Bill Marriott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not a reason to complain about Word because, well, you *can* edit photos with it http://www.wjm.org/linked/word-photo.gif (and draw simple graphics... and [cough] display its content in a web browser) It's cross platform and it does tables with great aplume. So clearly the answer is to suggest to MS to write a pluggin for Word so that it can be used as a RAD. So simple:-) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Brian Yennie wrote, I see no problem with anyone else salivating over a Rev plug-in. Heck, I'd probably find some use for it if there was one. :) It's not spurious. There's history here. Roadster (Supercard web plug-in) did an excellent job of sucking resources and falling on its face with a company similarly equipped to RunRev (i.e., small). And Roadster was a significantly smaller technical feat, because it only ran on one platform. Resources is one thing; bugs are another. (And did you mean, system resources, or company resources?) Sophisticated Flash solutions can take up several megabytes of RAM. More than a similar Rev standalone, in some cases. As for Roadster, I am sure that Apple didn't particularly care about making it cross-platform; they're funny/weird that way. (Apple *still* offers a non-xplat plug-in architecture.) By a plug-in comparable [to Rev] I mean Director of course. Director's lingo is/was even a variant of HyperTalk, before it transmogrified into a multi-headed ECMAscript beast. Revolution is hugely intertwined with OS-specific calls, file system access, multiple windows and a ton of other stuff that just doesn't fit in a browser window. In one of my earlier posts, I did comment that the browser sandbox would be the hardest aspect of a Rev plugin. Presumably one wouldn't be able to access the local system at all. And you wouldn't be able to spawn new windows, either. Not all technical issues are spurious but some of the ones bandied about certainly are. By the way... Clearly this is about using Rev to write stacks that target the browser... not to expect to run any Rev stack without modification within a browser window. I'm not saying it's impossible. Of course it's not. But raising technical objections is quite sound here. I've written externals for Revolution, compiled and modified Mozilla from the source, am familiar with the browser plugin API -- and I can barely imagine trying to fit Revolution in there. It's a much taller task than any plugin I know of. There ARE technical reasons why you don't see entire RAD environments running inside browsers. And no, Flash is not a RAD tool. And since Rev itself can't access the document object model, presumably a plugin woudn't be able to either, severely limiting its functionality. Yes, there would be some issues trying to get the existing Rev shoe-horned into a browser plugin. However, building a plugin that can present rev stacks is another question :) Anyway, perhaps we can agree - there are more than spurious technical hurdles, but some of us think they would be worth it (even though I do not). Yes... it's a big job. My point is NOT that Oh those Rev folks are so mean, they could just wave a hand and give us something we want, effortlessly. There are issues, sure. Solvable ones. I reject the claim that Rev is not appropriate for web delivery, or inherently incompatible with the concept, as spurious. I think many (perhaps even most) regulars here on the Rev list have accepted the niche Revolution has found and hopes it continues to be maintained and thrive in that niche. We feel lucky that Rev, such as it is, even exists... let alone that it works as well as it does to create real applications on the big three OS platforms. But you know, there is no President Bush who is going to declare our coral reef a wildlife sanctuary. Rev is going to have to adapt long term to survive, in my opinion. I think that means eventually running on the Web -- the latest and most important platform out there. As Stephen Hawking said, Leave Earth or die! :) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Hey, I think you're on to something! :D Kay C Lan wrote On 7/3/06, Bill Marriott wrote: It's not a reason to complain about Word because, well, you *can* edit photos with it http://www.wjm.org/linked/word-photo.gif (and draw simple graphics... and [cough] display its content in a web browser) It's cross platform and it does tables with great aplume. So clearly the answer is to suggest to MS to write a pluggin for Word so that it can be used as a RAD. So simple:-) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Not impossible. As I mentioned earlier, Apple demonstrated a browser plug-in for HyperCard. SuperCard had a similar plug-in. Such a facility would dramatically increase the value of writing in Rev. Quite magical, indeed. Rick Harrison wrote it is rather tall order for stacks to run on the web in the way you are describing. If they can do it, yes things would become quite magical in that world. I think the hard truth is that it is probably too difficult a task to accomplish in the near future. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Supercard's plugin - Roadster was extremely buggy and Mac-only. Hypercard was demonstrated as becoming integrated with Quicktime - not quite the same as a browser plugin and no guarantee of anything in particular. Both efforts ultimately were total failures for one reason or another, and neither product had a fraction of the toolset of Rev. They weren't even cross-platform. Note that Supercard is still alive, but the browser plugin is not- and it's still Mac only. A useful browser plugin for a Rev-like tool doesn't even make much technical sense. Sure, there are instances where an HTML export can work (say you are building a slideshow app) or a Flash export of your animation, or a Quicktime export of something else. There are other tools for delivery in a browser. You are much better off learning some of them, than trying to make Revolution live inside a browser window. Not too mention that if your product really MUST live inside a browser window, a large portion of many markets will just walk away when you ask them to install a new plugin. I don't mind if people really want to keep discussing this and find it interesting, but please consider the evidence that it's extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon - and quite possibly ever. Maybe we can shift the focus here. What kind of *specific* export tools would be good projects for Rev - and better suited than the already existing tools for those formats? - Brian Not impossible. As I mentioned earlier, Apple demonstrated a browser plug-in for HyperCard. SuperCard had a similar plug-in. Such a facility would dramatically increase the value of writing in Rev. Quite magical, indeed. Rick Harrison wrote it is rather tall order for stacks to run on the web in the way you are describing. If they can do it, yes things would become quite magical in that world. I think the hard truth is that it is probably too difficult a task to accomplish in the near future. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
Sure they had problems, and they were also released many years ago. The point is that a plug-in is well within possibility. Look at Director, which basically started out as a clone of HyperCard. They certainly deliver as a cross-platform plug-in that works. Flash achieved ubiquity and even bundling with Windows. That is also comparable with Rev. I don't know what you mean, really, by suggesting that such a plug-in doesn't make technical sense. You seem to be mixing the technical challenge of creating such a plug-in with the technical challenge of writing a stack that would run in a plug-in. As far as creating the plug-in itself -- sure, I don't presume that to be easy. (Nothing worthwhile is!) But, writing content for the plug-in should be as simple as setting the stack size to the size of the region you want in the browser window and going to town. As for end-users walking away at plug-in installation -- there is a percentage of viewers lost every time you click even a plain-jane HTML link! That doesn't stop people from creating links. If your content is useful/interesting enough, people will view it. It's much easier to get someone to install a plug-in than it is to get them to download a player. And honestly, it's a lot safer to download a plug-in (the executable is from a known publisher) than to download a standalone. If you look at the standalone download process on Windows, you get a warning when you download the file, and two warning dialogs before you can run it. Talk about people walking away! And they really should! Rev doesn't (and can't) stop anyone from writing a standalone that completely munges your system. But a web plug-in would provide a sandbox environment where it would be reasonably safe to try out new content. Unfortunately, I would tend to agree with you that it will never happen -- first because of the defeatism I've seen in the discussion thread; second because people seem quite satisfied to cook up elaborate workarounds for specific applications (i.e., export to DHTML); third because there are still 300 more-pressing enhancements needed in Rev (e.g., decent table objects); and finally because the overall rate of improvement/entropy in Rev precludes major new functions like this. (I'm still using 2.6.1 because 2.7.x remains much less stable.) I just hope that people don't confuse won't get it with don't need it ... even if that is a sound psychological coping strategy. Brian Yennie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Supercard's plugin - Roadster was extremely buggy and Mac-only. Hypercard was demonstrated as becoming integrated with Quicktime - not quite the same as a browser plugin and no guarantee of anything in particular. Both efforts ultimately were total failures for one reason or another, and neither product had a fraction of the toolset of Rev. They weren't even cross-platform. Note that Supercard is still alive, but the browser plugin is not- and it's still Mac only. A useful browser plugin for a Rev-like tool doesn't even make much technical sense. Sure, there are instances where an HTML export can work (say you are building a slideshow app) or a Flash export of your animation, or a Quicktime export of something else. There are other tools for delivery in a browser. You are much better off learning some of them, than trying to make Revolution live inside a browser window. Not too mention that if your product really MUST live inside a browser window, a large portion of many markets will just walk away when you ask them to install a new plugin. I don't mind if people really want to keep discussing this and find it interesting, but please consider the evidence that it's extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon - and quite possibly ever. Not impossible. As I mentioned earlier, Apple demonstrated a browser plug-in for HyperCard. SuperCard had a similar plug-in. Such a facility would dramatically increase the value of writing in Rev. Quite magical, indeed. Rick Harrison wrote it is rather tall order for stacks to run on the web in the way you are describing. If they can do it, yes things would become quite magical in that world. I think the hard truth is that it is probably too difficult a task to accomplish in the near future. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
I know that this decision lies with those that represent the interests of Runtime Revolution and its development, but, I do think the overall survival of the RunRev platform of development lies in the answer to this question. Will the developers support or supply a direct means of displaying Revolution authored content in a standard web browser, or not? Or, maybe preferred, will independent developers develop a direct QuickTime or Flash translator that would preserve most of the functionality of a Revolution stack for deployment via a standard web browser? Or, will they not, or do they not favor such a development? Sincerely, Greg Smith -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/What%27s-The-Verdict%2C-Web-or-Not--tf1876146.html#a5129452 Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: What's The Verdict, Web or Not?
On Jun 30, 2006, at 11:10 PM, GregSmith wrote: I know that this decision lies with those that represent the interests of Runtime Revolution and its development, but, I do think the overall survival of the RunRev platform of development lies in the answer to this question. Will the developers support or supply a direct means of displaying Revolution authored content in a standard web browser, or not? Or, maybe preferred, will independent developers develop a direct QuickTime or Flash translator that would preserve most of the functionality of a Revolution stack for deployment via a standard web browser? Or, will they not, or do they not favor such a development? Sincerely, Greg Smith Greg, I'm just a programmer/user like you are, and I don't know anything about Revolution's plans for the future. I would have to say from what little I know about such things, that it is rather tall order for stacks to run on the web in the way you are describing. If they can do it, yes things would become quite magical in that world. I think the hard truth is that it is probably too difficult a task to accomplish in the near future. Keep wishing anyway! Rick ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
