Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
On Nov 20, 2005, at 11:33 AM, Greg Smith wrote: All of your questions have been answered by others, but I thought I would add a few thoughts on a couple of your questions as they pertain to me. What kind of application do you want to make? I like making applications for niche markets. Most of my applications are for the general audience of a particular niche. This is for the most part different in business models from most I have seen. On this list I have noticed that most of the developers create applications for a particular client. My business model is almost as fun as the creation of the tool itself. I like to meet with as many people as possible in as many different fields as possible. Picking their brains on how their job could be made easier is the next task. Analyze the data you derive from all your meetings and conversations. Pay attention to details and look for ways to improve the lives of given field. I have also shifted my direction to the private sector over the public sector as the payoff is usually much higher (not including the government sector). What kind of appication like you want to make is already out there by the dozens? I am not afraid to make an application in a market that already has some competition. My most successful income grossing apps are those that do not lend themselves well to a retail shelf. I find the retail market to be less profitable for the size of my team. I also like making apps that will generate more income with fewer customers. The super short reason is that their is less tech support involved. You will also find a lot less competition in carefully selected niche markets. Why make a duplicate of an application that exists and already does most of what you want? Those tools that already exist may not fit my needs exactly. I have written specific tools that are for my use only. The time spent usually teaches me something new that can be used in income generating products down the road. Why spend months/years learning to develop something that you could buy for relatively little money from someone else? Programming is an addiction to me that started well before I understood the need for money to survive. This might be harsh, but I find that those that learn to program to get a job usually fail or hate their decision and eventually quit. Those that start programming for the joy of coding and solving problems usually last a lifetime and generate more income. Is your idea really that much better than one that has already been put into code? The answer to this is closely connected to my second answer. I like finding a market that already has a product leader in a relatively young market. The company that is leading the pack has spent a good amount of time, energy, and money teaching the market they need their tool. By the time the customers come around to purchasing the tool, you can ride on the jet stream they have created and take advantage of the mistakes in their product logic. In most cases, you can quickly exceed their success and take the market over. Think Google and Yahoo. Of course, the same can be said about your product if you do not stay ahead of the pack. Then you must rely on answer number four to maintain that distance. Once again, the love of programming will be required to keep you going as money will no longer be a factor. Once your income meets and/or exceeds your needs, only the love software development will keep you going! Mark Talluto -- CANELA Software http://www.canelasoftware.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
For me, primarily a writer who sees programming as an alternate form of communication, the answer to the question why program? is the same as the answer to the question why write? or why paint? It is in the nature of human beings to create. Each of us has different talents and interests and skills and capabilities and curiosities. Each of us has different perceived needs in the realm of software to deal with our day-to-day tasks. Many of the Revolution apps I've built for myself and others could have been done some other way. Perhaps a set of complex Excel macros could have done the job. Or an off-the-shelf piece of software could come close. But to get that perfect fit between a perceived need and a solution requires a form of artistry that expresses itself in code and UI design in much the same way a custom drawing depicts just so a scene or person that could have been captured roughly by some less artistic and precise method. WHy code? Coding is not for everyone. In fact, everyone I know who codes would say there are many days when coding isn't enjoyable or at least isn't their preferred activity. Just as many artist friends will tell me that there are many days they'd rather e sailing or walking the dog than painting or sculpting. But like art, software design and development -- including the grunt work of coding -- gets into your blood. It becomes part of who you see yourself as being. You could no more quit coding than you could quit thinking because very often you think in code. I look at any problem/opportunity in the real world and my first instinct is, How can I explain this better? (that's the writer in me) and my second instinct is, What kind of software could make that problem more tractable? (that's the coder in me). Every year I receive hundreds of emails and correspondence from people who seek advice about starting or continuing their writing careers. I tell them all the same thing. Don't write unless you cannot not write. I'd say the same goes for coding. Many people who say they love writing actually love having written; they like the result, but not the process. Same is true for coding. Same, I suspect, is true of artists. My 2 Euros. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
Hi Greg, I found your questions and the previous responses quite thoughtful. Rather than give you brief answers to all questions, I would like to focus on just one: why does it take so long to bring a software project from concept to completion? Development of software that interacts with, or presents information to, human users is both a creative process and a series of logic puzzles. One begins with a goal or concept and materializes same in the medium with which one works -- in this case computer input and output devices. But software development is different from creative activities such as painting or composing music because: (A) Virtually all software creations require some physical user interaction beyond simply passively experiencing them, and (B) Most software creations have one or more utilitarian goals; so they can be fairly judged correct or incorrect by others that the artist/composer. Implications of this are: * The creator must guide the experiencer through the experience * The creator must take into account that the experiencer's participation may not be voluntary (eg: business software) * The creative process does not end when the experience achieves the creator's goals: the creator must anticipate how a user may diminish the experience (eg: by hitting a wrong key or entering nonsensical responses) and include within the creation mechanisms to prevent such situations or guide the experience gracefully back to the intended state. * The creator must compensate for the fact that different computer hardware configurations tend to present the experience differently. * A software work in progress often presents little in the way of physical manifestation as to how it's coming together until late in the creative process. One can see paint filling canvas and hear the progress of a musical composition; but it's often well into the last stages of pre-alpha testing before one has a sense of the potential quality of the experience. A corallary of this is that better or enhanced mechanisms for improving the experience, achieving the original goals, and/or adding additional functionality are routinely not discovered until late in the development process. * A software creation is often not static, but is modified over time; so the creative process must include instructions for others or notes to the creator to facilitate future changes. * The software creative process also requires preparation of written instructions to people you will never meet telling them how to experience it. Rob Cozens CCW Serendipity Software Company And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three; Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee. from The Triple Foole by John Donne (1572-1631) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
Dan, For the record, And we agree again! (are pigs taking to space everywhere? Take a look out your windows...) :-) Judy On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Dan Shafer wrote: Every year I receive hundreds of emails and correspondence from people who seek advice about starting or continuing their writing careers. I tell them all the same thing. Don't write unless you cannot not write. I'd say the same goes for coding. Many people who say they love writing actually love having written; they like the result, but not the process. Same is true for coding. Same, I suspect, is true of artists. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
I really don't want to stir up a debate, but I feel lost in today's world of application creation. What kind of application do you want to make? What kind of appication like you want to make is already out there by the dozens? Why make a duplicate of an application that exists and already does most of what you want? Why spend months/years learning to develop something that you could buy for relatively little money from someone else? Is your idea really that much better than one that has already been put into code? Why code at all? Has the wheel really been invented over and over again? Why is it so hard to make an application without re-inventing something that has already been made thousands of times? With all of this talk about object oriented, reusable code, why does it still take so long to produce anything really useful or unique? Why does everyone keep inventing new database software? Why don't game creators usually finish what they start? Why don't more people use Revolution to develop modern style games? Why can't most artists learn to code? Why don't most artists even want to try to learn to code? I'm an artist and an animator who wants to make his art do something, but I loathe programming, what can I do, anyway? Can Revolution help me? How come I can't think like a machine? Well, there it is. Greg Smith ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
Hi Greg, Don't confuse ideas and means :-) Have an Idea without thinking of the means needed to realise it. The Idea id the only thing that counts. Check it against the market. If it does exist, that a bad idea. When you will have got the idea that does not exist yet and that makes you insomniac then search the best tool to make it a reality. Could be Rev... Best Regards from Paris, Eric Chatonet. Le 20 nov. 05 à 20:33, Greg Smith a écrit : I really don't want to stir up a debate, but I feel lost in today's world of application creation. What kind of application do you want to make? What kind of appication like you want to make is already out there by the dozens? Why make a duplicate of an application that exists and already does most of what you want? Why spend months/years learning to develop something that you could buy for relatively little money from someone else? Is your idea really that much better than one that has already been put into code? Why code at all? Has the wheel really been invented over and over again? Why is it so hard to make an application without re-inventing something that has already been made thousands of times? With all of this talk about object oriented, reusable code, why does it still take so long to produce anything really useful or unique? Why does everyone keep inventing new database software? Why don't game creators usually finish what they start? Why don't more people use Revolution to develop modern style games? Why can't most artists learn to code? Why don't most artists even want to try to learn to code? I'm an artist and an animator who wants to make his art do something, but I loathe programming, what can I do, anyway? Can Revolution help me? How come I can't think like a machine? Well, there it is. Greg Smith So Smart Software For institutions, companies and associations Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc. Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch Free plugins and tutorials on my website Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/ Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62 Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
On Nov 20, 2005, at 11:33 AM, Greg Smith wrote: I really don't want to stir up a debate, but I feel lost in today's world of application creation. It's called human nature. Just because one person climbed the mountain, doesn't mean you can't climb the same mountain. It's a challenge for our own nature to try and improve upon what already exist. Why do we see new cars every year, because someone came up with a new design and better features. Hey, where there's a will, there's a way :-) Personally, it's more a challenge for my mind, food for my brain. It's a hobby for me and not a business. Most people like to sit in a recliner and watch a movie for relaxation, or read a book, but I pump out graphics and source codes for relaxation. If you see no purpose, then you should find something else that gives you purpose. Maybe at one time you felt you had purpose in programming, but if it's since left you, then don't try to force yourself to stick with it, it'll only give you a distaste for programming. -Garrett ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
On 11/21/05, Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really don't want to stir up a debate, but I feel lost in today's world of application creation. What kind of application do you want to make? What kind of appication like you want to make is already out there by the dozens? -- snip -- I'm an artist and an animator who wants to make his art do something, but I loathe programming, what can I do, anyway? Can Revolution help me? How come I can't think like a machine? Hi Greg, You raise some interesting points, but I believe there are answers to most of them. I don't know about the other people on this list, but most of my programming time goes into developing customised business software. There are lots of general packages around, but they can almost never be tailored to a specific business model without making a lot of compromises. I can write a program specifically for a company's needs. The users don't have to learn to work their way around the unwanted features of a major package and they don't have to jump through hoops to make the software do what they actually need to do every day. Apart from that, the main focus of my programming is utilities that may only be used once, but make my job or someone else's job, easier. Why does it take so long to produce anything? That depends on your experience as well as your needs - I can make a single use utility in a few minutes, but I wouldn't want anyone else to have to use it as it will contain no error trapping, no documentation and the interface will be a complete mess. Making a complete application takes a lot longer. There will be sections of the code that I can grab from previous projects or from examples on this list, but a lot will have to be written from scratch. Since there is virtually no limit to the different tasks a program can be asked to do, it is not possible to have all the sections pre-assembled like Lego bricks, especially if trying to produce something unique. Testing, documenting and allowing for user error in all it's possible forms will take a long time and must be done well if you are hoping to produce a quality product. Part of the reason people keep inventing new database software is that the existing software doesn't meet their exact needs. I would qualify this as new database interface software rather than new database software as there are a few really good database engines available now which can be used in multiple ways if people write interfaces for them. As regards games, I would dearly love to write games, but although I enjoy playing games, I don't have the imagination to design a game that would repay my efforts, so I stick to business utility software where I know I have the skills to make a living. Finally, most of us are here because we love it. Programming is the ultimate puzzle and solving different parts of it every day gives great pleasure. If you are not one of those people who enjoys this sort of thing, then I recommend that you find yourself a partner. Programmers are often not very artistic as can be seen from some of the interfaces that have been designed. Why don't you stick to the design side of things and find a programmer to make it do something? And finally, the reason you can't think like a machine is because you aren't one :-) You are something much better - a creative, reasoning human being. HTH, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
Greg Smith wrote: I really don't want to stir up a debate, but I feel lost in today's world of application creation. It would be strange if you did not feel lost in it ;-) It's a very large place. But if you don't want to stir up a debate - why post :-) ? Why does everyone keep inventing new database software? Either to persecute us, or possibly because they would like to be as rich as Larry Ellison. Why don't more people use Revolution to develop modern style games? Perhaps there are better tools for that. Why can't most artists learn to code? Why don't most artists even want to try to learn to code? I'm an artist and an animator who wants to make his art do something, but I loathe programming, what can I do, anyway? Can Revolution help me? Maybe but not overnight, not without effort, and not if you expect the medium to behave as something other than itself. How come I can't think like a machine? Well, there it is. Greg Smith Because machines don't think. ;-) Maybe you would be interested in Michael Atavar's e-says http://www.e-says.com/. They are mainly simple web-based text pieces, some more successful than others. They are interesting and stimulating to me because they use the medium of the web-page for what it is, creatively exploiting its intrinsic virtue, without trying to make it be like television or something it is not, which is what almost everybody else seems to want to do. One piece of his, DUOLC was commissioned by a .org that I was part of. http://www.e-says.com/duolc/ Michael's work seems simple, but I think Michael takes on technology and wins by refusing to be overawed by it, using the parts of it that he can relate to, and insisting that it serve his creative message. Martin Baxter ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
I suppose one way to answer you is to ask a few questions in return I am a programmer-type of guy so I have these questions for you. I really don't want to stir up a debate, but I feel lost in today's world of IMAGE creation. What kind of GRAPHIC do you want to make? What kind of graphic like you want to make is already out there by the dozens? Why make a duplicate of an graphic that exists and already does most of what you want? Why spend months/years learning to develop something that you could buy for relatively little money from image supplier? Is your image really that much better than one that has already been put into graphic excellence? Why modify/create graphics at all? Has the image really been invented over and over again? Why is it so hard to make an image without re-inventing something that has already been made thousands of times? Why does everyone keep inventing new graphic manipulation software? Why can't most people learn to make good graphics? Why don't most programmers even want to try to learn to Photohsop, tiff, gif, color spaces, filters, bezier curves, layers, cymk, vector graphics, Pantone, transparency, masking, fonts, timelines, audio sync, sound formats, players? and spend months/years learning? How come I can't think like a someone who makes things look really good? Well, there it is. Jim Ault Las Vegas ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
Happy musings for a Sunday; seems like a good time, I'll bite: Greg Smith wrote: What kind of appication like you want to make is already out there by the dozens? Why make a duplicate of an application that exists and already does most of what you want? versiontracker.com and download.com will tell you how saturated the market is for the type of app you want to make. That a market may seem saturated may not necessarily be the case if you can bring something compellingly unique to the table. Why spend months/years learning to develop something that you could buy for relatively little money from someone else? If it's truly something you can but off the shelf, don't do it unless you do for the sake of doing it. If it's just for the sake of having it you can usually have it for less off the shelf. I make a lot of my own stuff because I have special needs. For example, there are several hundred text editors out there, but I've tried them all and none of them do everything I want so I'm making my own. Part of the benefit of making my own is that it give me lots of parts I can reuse in other apps for clients, so it has an exponential long-term benefit as well as the satisfaction of a tool that thinks exactly like I do. Why code at all? Some of us can't NOT code. It's like writing, or painting, or anything else: the ones who can't stop themselves from doing it tend to do well, if for no other reason than they're not doing anything else. :) Has the wheel really been invented over and over again? That's what the they thought until they made a turbine out of it and called it a jet engine. There's always room for innovation. It's bounds are as limitless as the human imagination. Two guys in a garage founded Hewlett Packard, revolutionizing the tech industry. Two guys in an apartment used HP parts to found Apple Computer, revolutionizing the computer industry. Two guys in a house a few hundred miles north used Apple computers to make Myst, revolutionizing the game industry. The next revolution is waiting to be discovered, perhaps by two readers of this list in a garage somewhere. Why is it so hard to make an application without re-inventing something that has already been made thousands of times? ...or a painting that hasn't already been painted, or a story that hasn't already been told With all of this talk about object oriented, reusable code, why does it still take so long to produce anything really useful or unique? Two reasons: 1. C++ isn't portable, no matter how many academic papers were written about that in the '80s. 2. Code isn't where creativity comes from; it's the other way around. Why does everyone keep inventing new database software? If you think about it, any collection of things with common properties is a database. There are a lot of things in this world, and only so many ways to describe and manage them. I've been working on my own simple database engine because I needed something that works everywhere Rev works, had zero licensing fees, and was simple to plug in and use. It doesn't do well with large data sets, but then again most of the things I need to manage never come close 50,000 items; most are just a few thousand, or a few hundred, or a dozen. So having a single way to define, store, and retrieve data has been a worthwhile investment for me, since just about every app needs to store and retrieve data. You start off with generalized read/write routines, then add handlers for defining and managing different types of data (file references, image data, dates, etc.), and before you know if you've written a modest DBMS. :) And storage is only part of a complete breakfast, the other half being binding it to controls for display. Apple's Core Data handles that well -- on OS X only. Rolling my own storage mechanism with a binding sysem lets me get through the day as easily as an XCode programmer, but for every platform Rev supports. So that's why I did it. Maybe folks who make DB engines are all just crazy and have too much time on our hands. :) Why don't game creators usually finish what they start? Myst I through V are done, as is Alida (which was ported to Rev for OS X and Windows). I don't really play a lot of other games, but I see a lot shipping so someone's finishing them. Why don't more people use Revolution to develop modern style games? Most modern games use specialized engines that take years to develop and cost several million dollars. But there are many types of games, and just as Myst showed us something technologically simple that turned the industry upside down, there are several dozen categories of games that have yet to be invented Why can't most artists learn to code? Why don't most artists even want to try to learn to code? I'm an artist and an animator who wants to make his art do something, but I loathe programming, what can I do,
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
Greg, I am an artist. I am a creative person and I feel comfortable around computers. This does not make me a 'programmer'. I started out with scripting languages because the tools I was using would not do what I wanted to do and so I started learning how to make my own. I actually hate coding. I hate having to get syntax right. I hate having to remember the 'rules' of syntax. But I love solving problems and I love the rewards in building something myself. I love using the code and designing a usable interface That acts like it is supposed to act. I hate when engineers with no common sense throw something into a software in an illogical way. I like logical attractive and usable interfaces with code that does what is should. Scripting languages look more like english and as such are so much easier to read through. I don't do programming, I do interface design that happens to include some code. I hire programmers to write C, C#, C++ code when I am done quickly creating a usable interface. This I like to call Rapid Prototyping and Rev is great for that. I can get a functional visual idea out to the people that then optimize it for public release. Does this sound like you? If so Rev is for you. Start out slow and read through every available script you can find to see how things are done by others. I am a visual person and learn better by doing rather than by studying. So download some stacks and start tearing them apart. Try and break them. Try and make them do something different than what they do now. I find this to be the best way to learn. Good luck Tom McGrath Lazy River Software® On Nov 20, 2005, at 5:56 PM, Martin Baxter wrote: Why can't most artists learn to code? Why don't most artists even want to try to learn to code? I'm an artist and an animator who wants to make his art do something, but I loathe programming, what can I do, anyway? Can Revolution help me? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
Yeah but I hate working in the Garage. It's too damn cold. Maybe if I lived in a warmer climate I wouldn't mind. It is a shame to realize I won't be changing the world because my garage is too cold, Damn. Tom P.S. It does have WiFi though. (So when I am working on a metal sculpture in the warmer months I can use my laptop to see my sketches down there) On Nov 20, 2005, at 7:42 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Two guys in a garage founded Hewlett Packard, revolutionizing the tech industry. Two guys in an apartment used HP parts to found Apple Computer, revolutionizing the computer industry. Two guys in a house a few hundred miles north used Apple computers to make Myst, revolutionizing the game industry. The next revolution is waiting to be discovered, perhaps by two readers of this list in a garage somewhere. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
Hi Greg, I really don't want to stir up a debate, but I feel lost in today's world of application creation. You and many millions or others I suspect What kind of application do you want to make? Having something worthwhile to achieve is a driving force in all the good applications I have ever written. If I couldn't feel the worth, I couldn't code as you call it. What kind of appication like you want to make is already out there by the dozens? I don't think there are dozens of GOOD applications Greg, but there are thousands of average ones. The good ones gather a following of passionate people and can live on for years past the originator steps away from his or her creation (e.g. Revolution, metacard, supercard, hypercard) {and the heritage from people like Bill Atkinson at Apple that was the lead on the original HyperCard project at Apple and his work was in response to visionaries from the forties and fifties that conceived of hypertext linking etc.}) Why make a duplicate of an application that exists and already does most of what you want? So many people use so little of the features in even one application, if you can select out the USEFUL bits and give a craftsman the tools to do a job in their field without wasting time (and money on useless [to them] features) that can be good for both you and the craftsperson. Why spend months/years learning to develop something that you could buy for relatively little money from someone else? Why have a portrait painted when you can have a polaroid taken? For the love of the medium, the subject, the time it takes, the care involved, the way it reflects the light from the open fireplace (for those of us in cold garages):) Is your idea really that much better than one that has already been put into code? It is the strength of execution of your idea in the medium that creates the value surely. Our Managing Director is a creative writer and she expects the medium to have its own strengths and weaknesses. Your (or my) ability to know and work with the strengths and weaknesses of this medium (or any other) is what makes our work a genuine communication of the essence of the actual idea that started us on the journey (or not). Why code at all? Coding isn't a better way of communicating knowledge; it is a different way. It is different from television or cinema or radio or theatre or novels or directories or reference books. It is more suited to some activities and less to others. BUT You don't ask a cinematographer to make a movie, you ask them to use the tools which are their craft to be a part of a team, to follow (hopefully) good direction, to help visualise their dimension of what is ALWAYS a multi-dimensional communication task. Has the wheel really been invented over and over again? There are Genre's of software just as there are genre's of movies or novels etc. A good piece of work within a genre can raise the minimum expectations of the users of a particular genre and therefore raise the bar for everyone else coding in that area. Why is it so hard to make an application without re-inventing something that has already been made thousands of times? If you know how and why things have been done before you won't re-invent, you will make use of... I think there is a quote about Standing on the shoulders of giants to see a new horizon. Well this industry is not full of giants, but we have had them, the same as each other new technology. People that saw further and moved the horizon back for everyone else. With all of this talk about object oriented, reusable code, why does it still take so long to produce anything really useful or unique? How long did it take you to master whatever medium you use for your art now? Oh, my... I better stop. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution