RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
btw I use Eclipse 3.0.1 with several cool plugins for building and testinf my webapplications... Sofar it rocks. The new features in 3.2 make it even more user friendly and easier to work with.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 30 juni 2005 14:28 To: user@struts.apache.org Subject: RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs I very much like the ease of use of struts (yes it need some improvements still) and everytime I encounter a lack of functionality building my JSP I will have to ask myself if this is lack of functionality or simply an attempt of me to put too much logic into the JSP... Sofar I could handle all issues with the bean,logic ad html taglibs. All other problems are solved in small almost atomic actions that do the real task and prepare the bojects for viewing.. regards Jacob -Original Message- From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 30 juni 2005 13:55 To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs Amen, brother! Like I said when I began this thread...Struts is dead and Java is a C# wannabie. ~mark -Original Message- From: Gregory Seidman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:17 PM To: user@struts.apache.org Subject: Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs So I hate to feed the trolls, but... On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 02:35:50PM -0700, Yan Hu wrote: } Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, .Net took } only 20% of the server side market. Now it is creeping up to 40%. .Net is } better or faster than Java? Nah.. Some .Net zealots otained some } benchmarks on Tiger and .Net1.1 using linPack. Tiger outperformed .Net. } But why is .NET creeping up so fast? VS.net contributes to a great } portion of its success. One of my friends is a NET develepor. I envy his } speed of rolling out (small to medium sized) web applications like they } were egg rolls. Only the market tells what is good nor not. You have } one thousand sound reasons to back up what you claim. If the market says } "no", then it is garbage I have never liked IDEs. I have never used an IDE that didn't get in my way more than it helped. VS.NET is no exception. Below I'll give you some reasons why .NET is popular that have nothing to do with the quality, or lack thereof, of VS.NET as an IDE. I recently developed an ASP.NET web app. This involved writing in the following languages: ASP.NET (JSP-ish), C#, CSS, and JavaScript. It was only because I could convince VS.NET to let me edit these files with Vim that I did not tear out all my hair. That said, ASP.NET beats the pants off JSP. I can tell you definitively that ASP.NET's custom web control stuff (both ascx files and just plain class instances) beats hell out of JSP's tag libraries. The EL is not a big enough plus to make up for the difficulty of wrapping functionality in a custom tag. I haven't done anything significant with Struts, but I didn't have any trouble separating model, view, and controller in ASP.NET. In addition, C# is what Java always should have been. Here are a few Java mistakes that are done right in C#: 1. The language and virtual machine are internationally standardized. 2. JavaBeans use a naming convention (get/set methods), rather than first-class, syntactically clear, reflectable properties. (Yes, you find the methods by reflection, but they are "properties" because of the naming convention, not because the reflection API knows anything about properties.) 3. Namespaces (packages) are hierarchical in name, but not in scope. 4. The source filename must match the (public) class defined in it. 5. The source file must be located in a directory hierarchy that matches the package hierarchy to which it belongs. 6. C/C++ precompiler directives were simply dropped, rather than fixed to be less prone to misuse. 7. Receiving an event requires implementing an interface, with its associated method(s), and calling a method on the event producer to register the handler; producing an event requires writing add and remove handler methods, as well as writing a loop to invoke the appropriate method on each registered handler. What makes this wrong can be seen by comparing it to the C# event handling mechanism: a delegate type (essentially an OO function pointer, which includes the object reference almost exactly like Obj-C's selectors) is declared to handle a particular event, an event is declared in the producer class of the delegate type, a method with the appropriate signature can be registered with the event using += and unregistered using -=, and the handlers are invoked by the producer class by calling the event like a method. Oh, yeah, and a class's events are available through the reflection API. 8. Special casing value types (e.g. int, char, etc.), rather than either making everything a
RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
I very much like the ease of use of struts (yes it need some improvements still) and everytime I encounter a lack of functionality building my JSP I will have to ask myself if this is lack of functionality or simply an attempt of me to put too much logic into the JSP... Sofar I could handle all issues with the bean,logic ad html taglibs. All other problems are solved in small almost atomic actions that do the real task and prepare the bojects for viewing.. regards Jacob -Original Message- From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 30 juni 2005 13:55 To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs Amen, brother! Like I said when I began this thread...Struts is dead and Java is a C# wannabie. ~mark -Original Message- From: Gregory Seidman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:17 PM To: user@struts.apache.org Subject: Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs So I hate to feed the trolls, but... On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 02:35:50PM -0700, Yan Hu wrote: } Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, .Net took } only 20% of the server side market. Now it is creeping up to 40%. .Net is } better or faster than Java? Nah.. Some .Net zealots otained some } benchmarks on Tiger and .Net1.1 using linPack. Tiger outperformed .Net. } But why is .NET creeping up so fast? VS.net contributes to a great } portion of its success. One of my friends is a NET develepor. I envy his } speed of rolling out (small to medium sized) web applications like they } were egg rolls. Only the market tells what is good nor not. You have } one thousand sound reasons to back up what you claim. If the market says } "no", then it is garbage I have never liked IDEs. I have never used an IDE that didn't get in my way more than it helped. VS.NET is no exception. Below I'll give you some reasons why .NET is popular that have nothing to do with the quality, or lack thereof, of VS.NET as an IDE. I recently developed an ASP.NET web app. This involved writing in the following languages: ASP.NET (JSP-ish), C#, CSS, and JavaScript. It was only because I could convince VS.NET to let me edit these files with Vim that I did not tear out all my hair. That said, ASP.NET beats the pants off JSP. I can tell you definitively that ASP.NET's custom web control stuff (both ascx files and just plain class instances) beats hell out of JSP's tag libraries. The EL is not a big enough plus to make up for the difficulty of wrapping functionality in a custom tag. I haven't done anything significant with Struts, but I didn't have any trouble separating model, view, and controller in ASP.NET. In addition, C# is what Java always should have been. Here are a few Java mistakes that are done right in C#: 1. The language and virtual machine are internationally standardized. 2. JavaBeans use a naming convention (get/set methods), rather than first-class, syntactically clear, reflectable properties. (Yes, you find the methods by reflection, but they are "properties" because of the naming convention, not because the reflection API knows anything about properties.) 3. Namespaces (packages) are hierarchical in name, but not in scope. 4. The source filename must match the (public) class defined in it. 5. The source file must be located in a directory hierarchy that matches the package hierarchy to which it belongs. 6. C/C++ precompiler directives were simply dropped, rather than fixed to be less prone to misuse. 7. Receiving an event requires implementing an interface, with its associated method(s), and calling a method on the event producer to register the handler; producing an event requires writing add and remove handler methods, as well as writing a loop to invoke the appropriate method on each registered handler. What makes this wrong can be seen by comparing it to the C# event handling mechanism: a delegate type (essentially an OO function pointer, which includes the object reference almost exactly like Obj-C's selectors) is declared to handle a particular event, an event is declared in the producer class of the delegate type, a method with the appropriate signature can be registered with the event using += and unregistered using -=, and the handlers are invoked by the producer class by calling the event like a method. Oh, yeah, and a class's events are available through the reflection API. 8. Special casing value types (e.g. int, char, etc.), rather than either making everything a proper object (like SmallTalk) or making it possible for developers to define value types. I'll admit that Java has gotten better with the release of 1.5, and about damn time. It has generics, which are not yet available in C# (currently in beta). It also has anonymous classes, which are primarily valuable for event handling. Java now has the enhanced for loop (C#&#x
RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
u missed the obvious innuendo and half-assed attempt at humor -Original Message- From: Larry Meadors [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:32 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs IMO, the IDE bigots are engaged in some sort of Freudian phallic compensation. I am confident enough to code with vi (it is even smaller than emacs). So...what does that say about people who use "WebSphere Application Developer" or "Sun Java Studio Creator 2004Q2"? Think about it... Larry On 6/29/05, Mark Galbreath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I just asked one of our analysts about this and she said, "Don't be silly, > it's ALL about the TOOL!" When I asked her what she meant, exactly, she > replied, "The bigger the tool, the more room for error." "And that's a GOOD > thing?" I asked astounded. She assured me that the best programmers she ever > dated had the biggest tools. > > I thought it best to leave it at that...for the time being. > > ~mark > > -Original Message- > From: Martin Kindler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 4:37 PM > > It is the (wo)man, not the tool. > > > > > > > This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is > addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service > Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the > presence of computer viruses. > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
Amen, brother! Like I said when I began this thread...Struts is dead and Java is a C# wannabie. ~mark -Original Message- From: Gregory Seidman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:17 PM To: user@struts.apache.org Subject: Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs So I hate to feed the trolls, but... On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 02:35:50PM -0700, Yan Hu wrote: } Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, .Net took } only 20% of the server side market. Now it is creeping up to 40%. .Net is } better or faster than Java? Nah.. Some .Net zealots otained some } benchmarks on Tiger and .Net1.1 using linPack. Tiger outperformed .Net. } But why is .NET creeping up so fast? VS.net contributes to a great } portion of its success. One of my friends is a NET develepor. I envy his } speed of rolling out (small to medium sized) web applications like they } were egg rolls. Only the market tells what is good nor not. You have } one thousand sound reasons to back up what you claim. If the market says } "no", then it is garbage I have never liked IDEs. I have never used an IDE that didn't get in my way more than it helped. VS.NET is no exception. Below I'll give you some reasons why .NET is popular that have nothing to do with the quality, or lack thereof, of VS.NET as an IDE. I recently developed an ASP.NET web app. This involved writing in the following languages: ASP.NET (JSP-ish), C#, CSS, and JavaScript. It was only because I could convince VS.NET to let me edit these files with Vim that I did not tear out all my hair. That said, ASP.NET beats the pants off JSP. I can tell you definitively that ASP.NET's custom web control stuff (both ascx files and just plain class instances) beats hell out of JSP's tag libraries. The EL is not a big enough plus to make up for the difficulty of wrapping functionality in a custom tag. I haven't done anything significant with Struts, but I didn't have any trouble separating model, view, and controller in ASP.NET. In addition, C# is what Java always should have been. Here are a few Java mistakes that are done right in C#: 1. The language and virtual machine are internationally standardized. 2. JavaBeans use a naming convention (get/set methods), rather than first-class, syntactically clear, reflectable properties. (Yes, you find the methods by reflection, but they are "properties" because of the naming convention, not because the reflection API knows anything about properties.) 3. Namespaces (packages) are hierarchical in name, but not in scope. 4. The source filename must match the (public) class defined in it. 5. The source file must be located in a directory hierarchy that matches the package hierarchy to which it belongs. 6. C/C++ precompiler directives were simply dropped, rather than fixed to be less prone to misuse. 7. Receiving an event requires implementing an interface, with its associated method(s), and calling a method on the event producer to register the handler; producing an event requires writing add and remove handler methods, as well as writing a loop to invoke the appropriate method on each registered handler. What makes this wrong can be seen by comparing it to the C# event handling mechanism: a delegate type (essentially an OO function pointer, which includes the object reference almost exactly like Obj-C's selectors) is declared to handle a particular event, an event is declared in the producer class of the delegate type, a method with the appropriate signature can be registered with the event using += and unregistered using -=, and the handlers are invoked by the producer class by calling the event like a method. Oh, yeah, and a class's events are available through the reflection API. 8. Special casing value types (e.g. int, char, etc.), rather than either making everything a proper object (like SmallTalk) or making it possible for developers to define value types. I'll admit that Java has gotten better with the release of 1.5, and about damn time. It has generics, which are not yet available in C# (currently in beta). It also has anonymous classes, which are primarily valuable for event handling. Java now has the enhanced for loop (C#'s foreach), automatic un-/boxing (C# has it), and typesafe enums (C# has it). There is also the metadata facility, which is similar to C#'s attributes. In some ways, Java has caught up with C# (though I'm not likely to forgive Sun for the unpleasantness that is the JavaBean convention). Of course, C# is moving forward as well. (See http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/04/05/csharpwhidbeypt1.html and http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/04/12/csharpwhidbeypt2.html for a rundown of its coming features.) It's getting generics. It's also getting anonymous methods (a lot like anonymous classes, and intended for
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
I have never liked IDEs. I have never used an IDE that didn't get in my way more than it helped. VS.NET is no exception. Below I'll give you some reasons why .NET is popular that have nothing to do with the quality, or lack thereof, of VS.NET as an IDE. ... That said, ASP.NET beats the pants off JSP. I can tell you definitively that ASP.NET's custom web control stuff (both ascx files and just plain class instances) beats hell out of JSP's tag libraries. The EL is not a big enough plus to make up for the difficulty of wrapping functionality in a custom tag. If you used one of those IDEs you hate this wouldn't be so hard. In jdeveloper you'd create the class, with a wizard that builds the boring part of the code, declare any variables you needed for this tag, use jdev to generate the getters and setters and then use the idea to put the tag in a library. I'll have to confess if I had to do all that grunt-work by hand, I'd hate it too. That being said, I do believe its a good idea to do some of your development in a new environment using a text editor as it helps you to understand when the whiz-bang tool goes ker-blooey and dumps out cryptic error messages. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
enough! only on fridays. and if particapate! .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
Hi Gregory: C# is a simple, clean yet very powerful language. I love it. I admit it is a bit painful to do the front develpment in J2EE. But we have JSF now which is just as good as ASP.net's server controlls. I believe it is better than ASP.NET 1.1. I like the idea of externalizing something(not too much) in XML files. Page navigations are one of the coolest futures in Creator I belive you have to hard code page-navigations in source code right? In JSF, page navigations are centralized, which is very easy to manage Oh, besides that, the business tire and data access tire is very easy work on now since we have spring,hibernate,toplink and other great OR mappers.. So for medium to large apps, we are very productive in the middle tier and back end .NET seems lacking in these areas... --- Gregory Seidman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So I hate to feed the trolls, but... > > On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 02:35:50PM -0700, Yan Hu wrote: > } Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, .Net took > } only 20% of the server side market. Now it is creeping up to 40%. .Net is > } better or faster than Java? Nah.. Some .Net zealots otained some > } benchmarks on Tiger and .Net1.1 using linPack. Tiger outperformed .Net. > } But why is .NET creeping up so fast? VS.net contributes to a great > } portion of its success. One of my friends is a NET develepor. I envy his > } speed of rolling out (small to medium sized) web applications like they > } were egg rolls. Only the market tells what is good nor not. You have > } one thousand sound reasons to back up what you claim. If the market says > } "no", then it is garbage > > I have never liked IDEs. I have never used an IDE that didn't get in my way > more than it helped. VS.NET is no exception. Below I'll give you some > reasons why .NET is popular that have nothing to do with the quality, or > lack thereof, of VS.NET as an IDE. > > I recently developed an ASP.NET web app. This involved writing in the > following languages: ASP.NET (JSP-ish), C#, CSS, and JavaScript. It was > only because I could convince VS.NET to let me edit these files with Vim > that I did not tear out all my hair. > > That said, ASP.NET beats the pants off JSP. I can tell you definitively > that ASP.NET's custom web control stuff (both ascx files and just plain > class instances) beats hell out of JSP's tag libraries. The EL is not a big > enough plus to make up for the difficulty of wrapping functionality in a > custom tag. I haven't done anything significant with Struts, but I didn't > have any trouble separating model, view, and controller in ASP.NET. > > In addition, C# is what Java always should have been. Here are a few Java > mistakes that are done right in C#: > > 1. The language and virtual machine are internationally standardized. > > 2. JavaBeans use a naming convention (get/set methods), rather than >first-class, syntactically clear, reflectable properties. (Yes, you find >the methods by reflection, but they are "properties" because of the >naming convention, not because the reflection API knows anything about >properties.) > > 3. Namespaces (packages) are hierarchical in name, but not in scope. > > 4. The source filename must match the (public) class defined in it. > > 5. The source file must be located in a directory hierarchy that matches >the package hierarchy to which it belongs. > > 6. C/C++ precompiler directives were simply dropped, rather than fixed to >be less prone to misuse. > > 7. Receiving an event requires implementing an interface, with its >associated method(s), and calling a method on the event producer to >register the handler; producing an event requires writing add and remove >handler methods, as well as writing a loop to invoke the appropriate >method on each registered handler. > >What makes this wrong can be seen by comparing it to the C# event >handling mechanism: a delegate type (essentially an OO function pointer, >which includes the object reference almost exactly like Obj-C's >selectors) is declared to handle a particular event, an event is >declared in the producer class of the delegate type, a method with the >appropriate signature can be registered with the event using += and >unregistered using -=, and the handlers are invoked by the producer >class by calling the event like a method. Oh, yeah, and a class's events >are available through the reflection API. > > 8. Special casing value types (e.g. int, char, etc.), rather than either >making everything a proper object (like SmallTalk) or making it possible >for developers to define value types. > > I'll admit that Java has gotten better with the release of 1.5, and about > damn time. It has generics, which are not yet available in C# (currently in > beta). It also has anonymous classes, which are primarily valuable for > event handling. Java now has the e
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
So I hate to feed the trolls, but... On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 02:35:50PM -0700, Yan Hu wrote: } Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, .Net took } only 20% of the server side market. Now it is creeping up to 40%. .Net is } better or faster than Java? Nah.. Some .Net zealots otained some } benchmarks on Tiger and .Net1.1 using linPack. Tiger outperformed .Net. } But why is .NET creeping up so fast? VS.net contributes to a great } portion of its success. One of my friends is a NET develepor. I envy his } speed of rolling out (small to medium sized) web applications like they } were egg rolls. Only the market tells what is good nor not. You have } one thousand sound reasons to back up what you claim. If the market says } "no", then it is garbage I have never liked IDEs. I have never used an IDE that didn't get in my way more than it helped. VS.NET is no exception. Below I'll give you some reasons why .NET is popular that have nothing to do with the quality, or lack thereof, of VS.NET as an IDE. I recently developed an ASP.NET web app. This involved writing in the following languages: ASP.NET (JSP-ish), C#, CSS, and JavaScript. It was only because I could convince VS.NET to let me edit these files with Vim that I did not tear out all my hair. That said, ASP.NET beats the pants off JSP. I can tell you definitively that ASP.NET's custom web control stuff (both ascx files and just plain class instances) beats hell out of JSP's tag libraries. The EL is not a big enough plus to make up for the difficulty of wrapping functionality in a custom tag. I haven't done anything significant with Struts, but I didn't have any trouble separating model, view, and controller in ASP.NET. In addition, C# is what Java always should have been. Here are a few Java mistakes that are done right in C#: 1. The language and virtual machine are internationally standardized. 2. JavaBeans use a naming convention (get/set methods), rather than first-class, syntactically clear, reflectable properties. (Yes, you find the methods by reflection, but they are "properties" because of the naming convention, not because the reflection API knows anything about properties.) 3. Namespaces (packages) are hierarchical in name, but not in scope. 4. The source filename must match the (public) class defined in it. 5. The source file must be located in a directory hierarchy that matches the package hierarchy to which it belongs. 6. C/C++ precompiler directives were simply dropped, rather than fixed to be less prone to misuse. 7. Receiving an event requires implementing an interface, with its associated method(s), and calling a method on the event producer to register the handler; producing an event requires writing add and remove handler methods, as well as writing a loop to invoke the appropriate method on each registered handler. What makes this wrong can be seen by comparing it to the C# event handling mechanism: a delegate type (essentially an OO function pointer, which includes the object reference almost exactly like Obj-C's selectors) is declared to handle a particular event, an event is declared in the producer class of the delegate type, a method with the appropriate signature can be registered with the event using += and unregistered using -=, and the handlers are invoked by the producer class by calling the event like a method. Oh, yeah, and a class's events are available through the reflection API. 8. Special casing value types (e.g. int, char, etc.), rather than either making everything a proper object (like SmallTalk) or making it possible for developers to define value types. I'll admit that Java has gotten better with the release of 1.5, and about damn time. It has generics, which are not yet available in C# (currently in beta). It also has anonymous classes, which are primarily valuable for event handling. Java now has the enhanced for loop (C#'s foreach), automatic un-/boxing (C# has it), and typesafe enums (C# has it). There is also the metadata facility, which is similar to C#'s attributes. In some ways, Java has caught up with C# (though I'm not likely to forgive Sun for the unpleasantness that is the JavaBean convention). Of course, C# is moving forward as well. (See http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/04/05/csharpwhidbeypt1.html and http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/04/12/csharpwhidbeypt2.html for a rundown of its coming features.) It's getting generics. It's also getting anonymous methods (a lot like anonymous classes, and intended for the same sort of use, i.e. event handling, but see mistake #7 above). It's also getting an absolutely brilliant way of expressing iteration, using the "yield return" construct. Basically, all the bookkeeping you have to do in an iterator is done for you, and you just write a loop (or whatever other traversal) around your data, executing yield return on each element. Also co
RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
My woman has no complaints Yours WSAD 5.0 Migrating this week to Rational Application Developer I know this is a tongue in cheek conversation but IDE's do all the frilly stuff so that I can get on with designing my application. Refactoring etc is a big part of my design work as 'he' often disagrees with 'me'. Code completion is a God send, and I swear that my CTRL and space keys are wearing out. -Original Message- From: Larry Meadors [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 June 2005 22:32 To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs IMO, the IDE bigots are engaged in some sort of Freudian phallic compensation. I am confident enough to code with vi (it is even smaller than emacs). So...what does that say about people who use "WebSphere Application Developer" or "Sun Java Studio Creator 2004Q2"? Think about it... Larry On 6/29/05, Mark Galbreath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I just asked one of our analysts about this and she said, "Don't be silly, it's ALL about the TOOL!" When I asked her what she meant, exactly, she replied, "The bigger the tool, the more room for error." "And that's a GOOD thing?" I asked astounded. She assured me that the best programmers she ever dated had the biggest tools. > > I thought it best to leave it at that...for the time being. > > ~mark > > -Original Message- > From: Martin Kindler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 4:37 PM > > It is the (wo)man, not the tool. > > > > > > > This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
Btw... Since linux has clearly more then 50% of the server market and solaris and windows 2003 fights for remaining market i don't see how asp can possibly have 40% of the cake. :-) Leon > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Yan Hu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2005 23:48 > An: Struts Users Mailing List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs > > > I use VS.NET - it is a turd with icing. > This is an empty statement without any hard evidence to back it up. > > > > Better than just a turd, but still not a brownie. > > The market says the turd is good... So you will have to eat > it or lose 40% of the pie and that number is still going up. > Thanks to JSF, Spring and Hibernate, we can now fight back. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
Btw... Since linux has clearly more then 50% of the server market and solaris and windows 2003 fights for remaining market i don't see how asp can possibly have 40% of the cake. :-) Leon > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Yan Hu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2005 23:48 > An: Struts Users Mailing List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs > > > I use VS.NET - it is a turd with icing. > This is an empty statement without any hard evidence to back it up. > > > > Better than just a turd, but still not a brownie. > > The market says the turd is good... So you will have to eat > it or lose 40% of the pie and that number is still going up. > Thanks to JSF, Spring and Hibernate, we can now fight back. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
> I use VS.NET - it is a turd with icing. This is an empty statement without any hard evidence to back it up. > Better than just a turd, but still not a brownie. The market says the turd is good... So you will have to eat it or lose 40% of the pie and that number is still going up. Thanks to JSF, Spring and Hibernate, we can now fight back. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
What is his speed to roll out small to medium sized web applications? And how you define a small to medium size web-application? I'd just be interested because we have 5 different portals in the company, 2 written in java and 3 in .asp, and we have to provide the management with good analysis which to choose for the future. Regards Leon > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Yan Hu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2005 23:36 > An: Struts Users Mailing List > Betreff: RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs > > Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, > .Net took only 20% of the server side market. Now it is > creeping up to 40%. .Net is better or faster than Java? > Nah.. Some .Net zealots otained some benchmarks on Tiger and > .Net1.1 using linPack. Tiger outperformed .Net. But why is > .NET creeping up so fast? VS.net contributes to a great > portion of its success. One of my friends is a NET develepor. > I envy his speed of rolling out (small to medium sized) web > applications like they were egg rolls. Only the market tells > what is good nor not. You have one thousand sound reasons > to back up what you claim. If the market says "no", then it > is garbage > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
What is his speed to roll out small to medium sized web applications? And how you define a small to medium size web-application? I'd just be interested because we have 5 different portals in the company, 2 written in java and 3 in .asp, and we have to provide the management with good analysis which to choose for the future. Regards Leon > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Yan Hu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2005 23:36 > An: Struts Users Mailing List > Betreff: RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs > > Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, > .Net took only 20% of the server side market. Now it is > creeping up to 40%. .Net is better or faster than Java? > Nah.. Some .Net zealots otained some benchmarks on Tiger and > .Net1.1 using linPack. Tiger outperformed .Net. But why is > .NET creeping up so fast? VS.net contributes to a great > portion of its success. One of my friends is a NET develepor. > I envy his speed of rolling out (small to medium sized) web > applications like they were egg rolls. Only the market tells > what is good nor not. You have one thousand sound reasons > to back up what you claim. If the market says "no", then it > is garbage > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
I use VS.NET - it is a turd with icing. Better than just a turd, but still not a brownie. Larry On 6/29/05, Yan Hu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, .Net took only > 20% of the server side > market. Now it is creeping up to 40%. .Net is better or faster than Java? > Nah.. Some .Net zealots > otained some benchmarks on Tiger and .Net1.1 using linPack. Tiger > outperformed .Net. But why is > .NET creeping up so fast? VS.net contributes to a great portion of its > success. One of my friends > is a NET develepor. I envy his speed of rolling out (small to medium sized) > web applications like > they were egg rolls. Only the market tells what is good nor not. You have > one thousand sound > reasons to back up what you claim. If the market says "no", then it is > garbage > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, .Net took only 20% of the server side market. Now it is creeping up to 40%. .Net is better or faster than Java? Nah.. Some .Net zealots otained some benchmarks on Tiger and .Net1.1 using linPack. Tiger outperformed .Net. But why is .NET creeping up so fast? VS.net contributes to a great portion of its success. One of my friends is a NET develepor. I envy his speed of rolling out (small to medium sized) web applications like they were egg rolls. Only the market tells what is good nor not. You have one thousand sound reasons to back up what you claim. If the market says "no", then it is garbage - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
IMO, the IDE bigots are engaged in some sort of Freudian phallic compensation. I am confident enough to code with vi (it is even smaller than emacs). So...what does that say about people who use "WebSphere Application Developer" or "Sun Java Studio Creator 2004Q2"? Think about it... Larry On 6/29/05, Mark Galbreath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I just asked one of our analysts about this and she said, "Don't be silly, > it's ALL about the TOOL!" When I asked her what she meant, exactly, she > replied, "The bigger the tool, the more room for error." "And that's a GOOD > thing?" I asked astounded. She assured me that the best programmers she ever > dated had the biggest tools. > > I thought it best to leave it at that...for the time being. > > ~mark > > -Original Message- > From: Martin Kindler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 4:37 PM > > It is the (wo)man, not the tool. > > > > > > > This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is > addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service > Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the > presence of computer viruses. > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
I just asked one of our analysts about this and she said, "Don't be silly, it's ALL about the TOOL!" When I asked her what she meant, exactly, she replied, "The bigger the tool, the more room for error." "And that's a GOOD thing?" I asked astounded. She assured me that the best programmers she ever dated had the biggest tools. I thought it best to leave it at that...for the time being. ~mark -Original Message- From: Martin Kindler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 4:37 PM It is the (wo)man, not the tool. This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
-Original Message- Monochrome 80x25 ADM31A or Hazeltine 1510 w/ 9600 baud serial link. -/Original Message- Do not exagerate... 80x25 is too big a 20x4 lcd-display is big enough also because: no modem back to acoutstic-coupler at 300 baud are thow them back to the teletyper single (but endless) line at 150/75 baud... have a disney day Alexander - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AW: [OT] Stinking IDEs
Hi guys, I think this lovely discussion is losing focus. Remember there have been great programmers and programs before any of us was born. Do you think the guys creating e. g. Unix had Emacs or an IDE ? And we (well, some of us) today are great programmers using better tools. It is the (wo)man, not the tool. Martin BTW: quiche is absolutely marvelous!!! Want a recipe? > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2005 22:12 > An: Struts Users Mailing List > Betreff: RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs > > > Yan, > > Us "old" guys still know a quiche-eater like you when we see one: > > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html > > http://www.multicians.org/thvv/realprogs.html > > If you can't debug with Lint, get the hell off the keyboard. > > ~mark > > -Original Message- > From: Mark Galbreath > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 4:06 PM > To: Struts Users Mailing List > Subject: [OT] Stinking IDEs > > > I have noticed over the years that those who are the most > adamant about the virtues of IDEs are the worst > programmers...and think emacs is a kid's meal from McDonalds. > > ~mark > > -Original Message- > From: Yan Hu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:33 PM > To: Struts Users Mailing List > Subject: Re: Is there any Jsp template like Smarty template ? > > > > > > http://uab.blogspot.com/2005/06/ides-we-dont-need-no-stinking-ides.h > > > tml > > It is the most stupid blog I have ever seen. Go back to the > cave where you belong to. Maybe we should ask MS guys to use > vi and Emacs too. Why do some people call them "real > programmers" just because they do not like IDEs? Why 85% of > the Java developers use Eclipse? You think they are all > wrong and you are right? You should be thankful since > Eclipse is such a good IDE and it is free. Haa. I know when > you get too old, you tend to hate anything new due to > uncertainty that the new technologies might bring to > you Hey that is understable that you might still want > to use Cobol or even assembly.. Why do you want to program in > java anyway? You could do a lot > more(control) using assembly than Java as you could program > in the stinking text editors such as vi and Emacs. They suck > big time. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > ** > * > This email and any file transmitted with it may be > confidential and is intended solely for the use of the > individual or entity to whom it is addressed.. If you > received this email in error please notify the DBM Service > Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus > Service for the presence of computer viruses. > > > > > > > ** > ** > This email and any file transmitted with it may be > confidential and is intended solely for the use of the > individual or entity to whom it is addressed.. If you > received this email in error please notify the DBM Service > Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus > Service for the presence of computer viruses. > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > ** > * > This email and any file transmitted with it may be > confidential and is intended solely for the use of the > individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you > received this email in error please notify the DBM Service > Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus > Service for the presence of computer viruses. > > > > > > > ** > * > This email and any file transmitted with it may be > confidential and is intended solely for the use of the
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
Durham David R Jr Ctr 805 CSPTS/SCE wrote: How exactly do you fix a worst programmer? Take away their keyboard? Actually, with all this auto-generation stuff, you'll have to take their mouse too. Monochrome 80x25 ADM31A or Hazeltine 1510 w/ 9600 baud serial link. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
Brian Lee wrote: I've also noticed that programmers who talk about how other programmers are the worst, are the worst programmers. Real programmers are too busy fixing the worst programmers to complain. No no, we must take complain-breaks in order to keep from pulling our own heads off. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Stinking IDEs
Don't forget this one: http://thc.org/root/phun/unmaintain.html My personal favorite: Creative Miss-spelling! Long live VI!!! Larry - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
> I've noticed over the years that people who start IDE threads > are unappreciated. > > I've also noticed that programmers who talk about how other > programmers are the worst, are the worst programmers. Real > programmers are too busy fixing the worst programmers to > complain. How exactly do you fix a worst programmer? Take away their keyboard? Actually, with all this auto-generation stuff, you'll have to take their mouse too. - Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
I've noticed over the years that people who start IDE threads are unappreciated. I've also noticed that programmers who talk about how other programmers are the worst, are the worst programmers. Real programmers are too busy fixing the worst programmers to complain. BAL From: "Mark Galbreath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" Subject: [OT] Stinking IDEs Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:06:18 -0400 I have noticed over the years that those who are the most adamant about the virtues of IDEs are the worst programmers...and think emacs is a kid's meal from McDonalds. ~mark -Original Message- From: Yan Hu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:33 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Is there any Jsp template like Smarty template ? > > http://uab.blogspot.com/2005/06/ides-we-dont-need-no-stinking-ides.html It is the most stupid blog I have ever seen. Go back to the cave where you belong to. Maybe we should ask MS guys to use vi and Emacs too. Why do some people call them "real programmers" just because they do not like IDEs? Why 85% of the Java developers use Eclipse? You think they are all wrong and you are right? You should be thankful since Eclipse is such a good IDE and it is free. Haa. I know when you get too old, you tend to hate anything new due to uncertainty that the new technologies might bring to you Hey that is understable that you might still want to use Cobol or even assembly.. Why do you want to program in java anyway? You could do a lot more(control) using assembly than Java as you could program in the stinking text editors such as vi and Emacs. They suck big time. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Stinking IDEs
Yan, Us "old" guys still know a quiche-eater like you when we see one: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html http://www.multicians.org/thvv/realprogs.html If you can't debug with Lint, get the hell off the keyboard. ~mark -Original Message- From: Mark Galbreath Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 4:06 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: [OT] Stinking IDEs I have noticed over the years that those who are the most adamant about the virtues of IDEs are the worst programmers...and think emacs is a kid's meal from McDonalds. ~mark -Original Message- From: Yan Hu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:33 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Is there any Jsp template like Smarty template ? > > http://uab.blogspot.com/2005/06/ides-we-dont-need-no-stinking-ides.html It is the most stupid blog I have ever seen. Go back to the cave where you belong to. Maybe we should ask MS guys to use vi and Emacs too. Why do some people call them "real programmers" just because they do not like IDEs? Why 85% of the Java developers use Eclipse? You think they are all wrong and you are right? You should be thankful since Eclipse is such a good IDE and it is free. Haa. I know when you get too old, you tend to hate anything new due to uncertainty that the new technologies might bring to you Hey that is understable that you might still want to use Cobol or even assembly.. Why do you want to program in java anyway? You could do a lot more(control) using assembly than Java as you could program in the stinking text editors such as vi and Emacs. They suck big time. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. *** This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Stinking IDEs
I have noticed over the years that those who are the most adamant about the virtues of IDEs are the worst programmers...and think emacs is a kid's meal from McDonalds. ~mark -Original Message- From: Yan Hu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:33 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Is there any Jsp template like Smarty template ? > > http://uab.blogspot.com/2005/06/ides-we-dont-need-no-stinking-ides.html It is the most stupid blog I have ever seen. Go back to the cave where you belong to. Maybe we should ask MS guys to use vi and Emacs too. Why do some people call them "real programmers" just because they do not like IDEs? Why 85% of the Java developers use Eclipse? You think they are all wrong and you are right? You should be thankful since Eclipse is such a good IDE and it is free. Haa. I know when you get too old, you tend to hate anything new due to uncertainty that the new technologies might bring to you Hey that is understable that you might still want to use Cobol or even assembly.. Why do you want to program in java anyway? You could do a lot more(control) using assembly than Java as you could program in the stinking text editors such as vi and Emacs. They suck big time. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. This email and any file transmitted with it may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the DBM Service Desk by forwarding this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has been scanned by networkMaryland Antivirus Service for the presence of computer viruses. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
