Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
Ted, Graig, So was Struts Shale made to make programmer's life easier in creating Web Applications using MVC Framework? I've read some posts/blogs where people who've used Struts and now use Tapestry say that they will never go back to Struts again. Is this what Struts Shale tries to change/disprove? Ted Husted wrote: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:03:09 -0500, Alex Kravets wrote: So what do you guys think? http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=31509 An important clarification we'll make to the FAQ is that by doing our job right we mean not break backward compatibility in the ongoing 1.x series. There's more than a few things that people want to do with Struts 1.x yet. We're approaching Struts 1.3, and already, the Milestone page [http://struts.apache.org/milestones.html] is looking forward to Struts 1.6. If need be, we can go on to Struts 1.42 or Struts 1.2025. If there's interest, there could be another five, ten, or fifty years of Struts 1.x development. A year ago, we talked about a Struts 2.x revolution to give us a clean start on the codebase. But, most everyone wanted to evolve the Struts 1.x codebase instead. So, that's what we are doing: evolving Struts 1.x, step by step, innovation by innovation, deprecation by deprecation :) If we never break backward compatibility, and we never start a new codebase, then we never need to roll the major version number. Meanwhile, another potentially great framework has come along: Shale. Like Struts, Shale is MVC web framework, but it doesn't share any code or architectural hallmarks with Struts 1.x. We could call it Struts 2.x, but we could also fork Maverick, Spring MVC, Tapestry, or WebWork and call any of those Struts 2.x, if that's what the community wanted. But, as near as we can tell, that's not what they community wants. The volunteers are showing by their commits that we want to evolve Struts 1.x and, at the same time, also work on Shale 1.x. As someone mentioned elsewhere: different strokes for different folks: different technologies for different requirements. People wanted to do both and proved it with their commits. So both is what we are doing :) And, if someone comes up with a third thing, based on dynamic ECMA Script or something, maybe we'll do that too. :) -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
I know you asked Ted/Craig but Tapestry is a Apache project, like Struts, a good framework that is View centric, home page says: Tapestry is an alternative to scripting environments such as JavaServer Pages or Velocity Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) Even if Struts loses 10% every year, that would make it say 5% or 3%, or 1% say in many years. Tapestry, JSF, WebWorks, Symphony, etc. are all fine comunities that have that kind of a market share, so it would not be bad at all. (and then all the questions about is this the most pouplar one would go away). WHICH ONE FITS YOU NEEDS BEST BASED ON YOUR ANAYLSIS? (It's a bit like sayind what method call you you call in your code? I'ts up to you). Alex Kravets wrote: Ted, Graig, 've read some posts/blogs where people who've used Struts and now use Tapestry say that they will never go back to Struts again. see above. If you have similar needs as them maybe you should do that. In 2000, http://barracudamvc.org/Barracuda/index.html would say they are better and Turbine did; there was allways competition. Is this what Struts Shale tries to change/disprove? I hope not!!! I feel like I am the old Lakers, #1, and everyone hates you. And yes, I hate the Lakers. :-P .V -- Forums, Boards, Blogs and News in RiA http://www.boardVU.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
Well I think 70% is a little bit too much http://www.manageability.org/polls/what-is-the-best-java-web-framework Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) But at the end of the day most people tend to learn languages/platforms/frameworks that are in demand (remember when HTML coders were payed $70K?). Most people will not spend time on learning something that they think/know is good but the rest of the world does not, because most people do what they do to support themselves financially. The rest of does it because they are scientists. Vic wrote: I know you asked Ted/Craig but Tapestry is a Apache project, like Struts, a good framework that is View centric, home page says: Tapestry is an alternative to scripting environments such as JavaServer Pages or Velocity Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) Even if Struts loses 10% every year, that would make it say 5% or 3%, or 1% say in many years. Tapestry, JSF, WebWorks, Symphony, etc. are all fine comunities that have that kind of a market share, so it would not be bad at all. (and then all the questions about is this the most pouplar one would go away). WHICH ONE FITS YOU NEEDS BEST BASED ON YOUR ANAYLSIS? (It's a bit like sayind what method call you you call in your code? I'ts up to you). Alex Kravets wrote: Ted, Graig, 've read some posts/blogs where people who've used Struts and now use Tapestry say that they will never go back to Struts again. see above. If you have similar needs as them maybe you should do that. In 2000, http://barracudamvc.org/Barracuda/index.html would say they are better and Turbine did; there was allways competition. Is this what Struts Shale tries to change/disprove? I hope not!!! I feel like I am the old Lakers, #1, and everyone hates you. And yes, I hate the Lakers. :-P .V
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
This should have been a quote: Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) Alex Kravets wrote: Well I think 70% is a little bit too much http://www.manageability.org/polls/what-is-the-best-java-web-framework Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) But at the end of the day most people tend to learn languages/platforms/frameworks that are in demand (remember when HTML coders were payed $70K?). Most people will not spend time on learning something that they think/know is good but the rest of the world does not, because most people do what they do to support themselves financially. The rest of does it because they are scientists. Vic wrote: I know you asked Ted/Craig but Tapestry is a Apache project, like Struts, a good framework that is View centric, home page says: Tapestry is an alternative to scripting environments such as JavaServer Pages or Velocity Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) Even if Struts loses 10% every year, that would make it say 5% or 3%, or 1% say in many years. Tapestry, JSF, WebWorks, Symphony, etc. are all fine comunities that have that kind of a market share, so it would not be bad at all. (and then all the questions about is this the most pouplar one would go away). WHICH ONE FITS YOU NEEDS BEST BASED ON YOUR ANAYLSIS? (It's a bit like sayind what method call you you call in your code? I'ts up to you). Alex Kravets wrote: Ted, Graig, 've read some posts/blogs where people who've used Struts and now use Tapestry say that they will never go back to Struts again. see above. If you have similar needs as them maybe you should do that. In 2000, http://barracudamvc.org/Barracuda/index.html would say they are better and Turbine did; there was allways competition. Is this what Struts Shale tries to change/disprove? I hope not!!! I feel like I am the old Lakers, #1, and everyone hates you. And yes, I hate the Lakers. :-P .V
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
Alex Kravets wrote: Well I think 70% is a little bit too much http://www.manageability.org/polls/what-is-the-best-java-web-framework Yup, agree. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-userm=98268169919293w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-userm=97660305929382w=2 Here are some other Struts is dead threads in 2001. Each framework is good at what it does. .V -- Forums, Boards, Blogs and News in RiA http://www.boardVU.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
I guess it depends on which group of 700 people you ask, and also how you ask the question: http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/05/19/2004-survey.html What are you using? (the question asked by OnJava, and is what market share would be based on) is different from What is the best? (asked by the blog below), which is also different from What is the most appropriate for the application you're developing? (which people on a team should answer). I wonder where Raible got his figures. On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:50:27 -0500, Alex Kravets [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well I think 70% is a little bit too much http://www.manageability.org/polls/what-is-the-best-java-web-framework Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) But at the end of the day most people tend to learn languages/platforms/frameworks that are in demand (remember when HTML coders were payed $70K?). Most people will not spend time on learning something that they think/know is good but the rest of the world does not, because most people do what they do to support themselves financially. The rest of does it because they are scientists. Vic wrote: I know you asked Ted/Craig but Tapestry is a Apache project, like Struts, a good framework that is View centric, home page says: Tapestry is an alternative to scripting environments such as JavaServer Pages or Velocity Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) Even if Struts loses 10% every year, that would make it say 5% or 3%, or 1% say in many years. Tapestry, JSF, WebWorks, Symphony, etc. are all fine comunities that have that kind of a market share, so it would not be bad at all. (and then all the questions about is this the most pouplar one would go away). WHICH ONE FITS YOU NEEDS BEST BASED ON YOUR ANAYLSIS? (It's a bit like sayind what method call you you call in your code? I'ts up to you). Alex Kravets wrote: Ted, Graig, 've read some posts/blogs where people who've used Struts and now use Tapestry say that they will never go back to Struts again. see above. If you have similar needs as them maybe you should do that. In 2000, http://barracudamvc.org/Barracuda/index.html would say they are better and Turbine did; there was allways competition. Is this what Struts Shale tries to change/disprove? I hope not!!! I feel like I am the old Lakers, #1, and everyone hates you. And yes, I hate the Lakers. :-P .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
hihi all, just want to add my 2 cents i think it's simply a time issue. if i had time, naturally i'd like to evaluate all possible choices before deciding which framework to use. but given the amount of framework spin-offs we have these days, it's a luxury not many ppl will have. think about a new java web app developer starting out right now. with all the choices he/she faces, can you blame them for asking which is most popular?. going with the flow is a natural response when individuals don't have the time to thoroughly investigate all the frameworks to come to their own decision. and even if someone did take the time to investigate all frameworks for their particular project, it would not surprising that their opinion may change later on. evaluating frameworks thoroughly is not a trivial task, you need to spend the time to really discover the strengths/weaknesses for any project of reasonable size. choice is good. sure. but i also think there's confusion when there is so many ways to do the same thing. this is the irony that will always be there. i think feeling 'overwhelmed' would be a safe assumption for anyone starting out right now. woodchuck --- Alex Kravets [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well I think 70% is a little bit too much http://www.manageability.org/polls/what-is-the-best-java-web-framework Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) But at the end of the day most people tend to learn languages/platforms/frameworks that are in demand (remember when HTML coders were payed $70K?). Most people will not spend time on learning something that they think/know is good but the rest of the world does not, because most people do what they do to support themselves financially. The rest of does it because they are scientists. Vic wrote: I know you asked Ted/Craig but Tapestry is a Apache project, like Struts, a good framework that is View centric, home page says: Tapestry is an alternative to scripting environments such as JavaServer Pages or Velocity Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) Even if Struts loses 10% every year, that would make it say 5% or 3%, or 1% say in many years. Tapestry, JSF, WebWorks, Symphony, etc. are all fine comunities that have that kind of a market share, so it would not be bad at all. (and then all the questions about is this the most pouplar one would go away). WHICH ONE FITS YOU NEEDS BEST BASED ON YOUR ANAYLSIS? (It's a bit like sayind what method call you you call in your code? I'ts up to you). Alex Kravets wrote: Ted, Graig, 've read some posts/blogs where people who've used Struts and now use Tapestry say that they will never go back to Struts again. see above. If you have similar needs as them maybe you should do that. In 2000, http://barracudamvc.org/Barracuda/index.html would say they are better and Turbine did; there was allways competition. Is this what Struts Shale tries to change/disprove? I hope not!!! I feel like I am the old Lakers, #1, and everyone hates you. And yes, I hate the Lakers. :-P .V __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
True. Choice is good. The whole notion of capitalism is based on this. Choice is a product of competition, and when there is competition better products come out as a result of competition between number of other products. Indeed choice is good. Woodchuck wrote: hihi all, just want to add my 2 cents i think it's simply a time issue. if i had time, naturally i'd like to evaluate all possible choices before deciding which framework to use. but given the amount of framework spin-offs we have these days, it's a luxury not many ppl will have. think about a new java web app developer starting out right now. with all the choices he/she faces, can you blame them for asking which is most popular?. going with the flow is a natural response when individuals don't have the time to thoroughly investigate all the frameworks to come to their own decision. and even if someone did take the time to investigate all frameworks for their particular project, it would not surprising that their opinion may change later on. evaluating frameworks thoroughly is not a trivial task, you need to spend the time to really discover the strengths/weaknesses for any project of reasonable size. choice is good. sure. but i also think there's confusion when there is so many ways to do the same thing. this is the irony that will always be there. i think feeling 'overwhelmed' would be a safe assumption for anyone starting out right now. woodchuck --- Alex Kravets [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well I think 70% is a little bit too much http://www.manageability.org/polls/what-is-the-best-java-web-framework Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) But at the end of the day most people tend to learn languages/platforms/frameworks that are in demand (remember when HTML coders were payed $70K?). Most people will not spend time on learning something that they think/know is good but the rest of the world does not, because most people do what they do to support themselves financially. The rest of does it because they are scientists. Vic wrote: I know you asked Ted/Craig but Tapestry is a Apache project, like Struts, a good framework that is View centric, home page says: Tapestry is an alternative to scripting environments such as JavaServer Pages or Velocity Accroding to latest market share reportring (by Raible) Struts is like 70% of market share. (Having said that, I wish that people that use Struts becuase it's popular go away, one should use own judgment; if everyone used EJB, would you use that too? or would you jump of a bridge? Waren Buffet has a book and a chapter on Lemmings) Even if Struts loses 10% every year, that would make it say 5% or 3%, or 1% say in many years. Tapestry, JSF, WebWorks, Symphony, etc. are all fine comunities that have that kind of a market share, so it would not be bad at all. (and then all the questions about is this the most pouplar one would go away). WHICH ONE FITS YOU NEEDS BEST BASED ON YOUR ANAYLSIS? (It's a bit like sayind what method call you you call in your code? I'ts up to you). Alex Kravets wrote: Ted, Graig, 've read some posts/blogs where people who've used Struts and now use Tapestry say that they will never go back to Struts again. see above. If you have similar needs as them maybe you should do that. In 2000, http://barracudamvc.org/Barracuda/index.html would say they are better and Turbine did; there was allways competition. Is this what Struts Shale tries to change/disprove? I hope not!!! I feel like I am the old Lakers, #1, and everyone hates you. And yes, I hate the Lakers. :-P .V __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
I don't think anyone is out to prove or disprove anything. Craig saw a cool way to implement a front controller for JavaServer Faces, so he posted some proof-of-concept code. Other people starting making contributions. A community is growing up around the codebase, so we made it a subproject. That's really all there is to it. You know, guys, most of the committers are working stiffs, just like you. We find ways that help us write our own applications, and we share them with the community. We're not sitting around trying to come up with The Next Big Thing and move another million of copies of Struts. We're just trying to ship our next application, while we maintain the ones we already go, just like you. Craig thinks JSF and Shale is a great way to write Java Web applications, and other people are starting to agree with him. That's not to say there are not other great ways to write applications. Tapestry is one. Maverick, Spring MVC, and WebWorks are others. -Ted. On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 09:34:54 -0500, Alex Kravets wrote: Ted, Graig, So was Struts Shale made to make programmer's life easier in creating Web Applications using MVC Framework? I've read some posts/blogs where people who've used Struts and now use Tapestry say that they will never go back to Struts again. Is this what Struts Shale tries to change/disprove? Ted Husted wrote: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:03:09 -0500, Alex Kravets wrote: So what do you guys think? http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=31509 An important clarification we'll make to the FAQ is that by doing our job right we mean not break backward compatibility in the ongoing 1.x series. There's more than a few things that people want to do with Struts 1.x yet. We're approaching Struts 1.3, and already, the Milestone page [http://struts.apache.org/milestones.html] is looking forward to Struts 1.6. If need be, we can go on to Struts 1.42 or Struts 1.2025. If there's interest, there could be another five, ten, or fifty years of Struts 1.x development. A year ago, we talked about a Struts 2.x revolution to give us a clean start on the codebase. But, most everyone wanted to evolve the Struts 1.x codebase instead. So, that's what we are doing: evolving Struts 1.x, step by step, innovation by innovation, deprecation by deprecation :) If we never break backward compatibility, and we never start a new codebase, then we never need to roll the major version number. Meanwhile, another potentially great framework has come along: Shale. Like Struts, Shale is MVC web framework, but it doesn't share any code or architectural hallmarks with Struts 1.x. We could call it Struts 2.x, but we could also fork Maverick, Spring MVC, Tapestry, or WebWork and call any of those Struts 2.x, if that's what the community wanted. But, as near as we can tell, that's not what they community wants. The volunteers are showing by their commits that we want to evolve Struts 1.x and, at the same time, also work on Shale 1.x. As someone mentioned elsewhere: different strokes for different folks: different technologies for different requirements. People wanted to do both and proved it with their commits. So both is what we are doing :) And, if someone comes up with a third thing, based on dynamic ECMA Script or something, maybe we'll do that too. :) -Ted. -- --- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
Ted, I hope you don't think that we (well me at least) seem to be accusation in our e-mails. That is not the case. I am just sharing my thoughts on where this or that approach might lead in the future. It might sound unappreciative when guys spend thousands of hours perfecting/making better something and other guys try to critique it without knowing what labor was put into this work, but that's the nature of users: bitch, bitch, bitch (I know it myself). No hard feeling I hope :) Ted Husted wrote: I don't think anyone is out to prove or disprove anything. Craig saw a cool way to implement a front controller for JavaServer Faces, so he posted some proof-of-concept code. Other people starting making contributions. A community is growing up around the codebase, so we made it a subproject. That's really all there is to it. You know, guys, most of the committers are working stiffs, just like you. We find ways that help us write our own applications, and we share them with the community. We're not sitting around trying to come up with The Next Big Thing and move another million of copies of Struts. We're just trying to ship our next application, while we maintain the ones we already go, just like you. Craig thinks JSF and Shale is a great way to write Java Web applications, and other people are starting to agree with him. That's not to say there are not other great ways to write applications. Tapestry is one. Maverick, Spring MVC, and WebWorks are others. -Ted. On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 09:34:54 -0500, Alex Kravets wrote: Ted, Graig, So was Struts Shale made to make programmer's life easier in creating Web Applications using MVC Framework? I've read some posts/blogs where people who've used Struts and now use Tapestry say that they will never go back to Struts again. Is this what Struts Shale tries to change/disprove? Ted Husted wrote: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:03:09 -0500, Alex Kravets wrote: So what do you guys think? http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=31509 An important clarification we'll make to the FAQ is that by doing our job right we mean not break backward compatibility in the ongoing 1.x series. There's more than a few things that people want to do with Struts 1.x yet. We're approaching Struts 1.3, and already, the Milestone page [http://struts.apache.org/milestones.html] is looking forward to Struts 1.6. If need be, we can go on to Struts 1.42 or Struts 1.2025. If there's interest, there could be another five, ten, or fifty years of Struts 1.x development. A year ago, we talked about a Struts 2.x revolution to give us a clean start on the codebase. But, most everyone wanted to evolve the Struts 1.x codebase instead. So, that's what we are doing: evolving Struts 1.x, step by step, innovation by innovation, deprecation by deprecation :) If we never break backward compatibility, and we never start a new codebase, then we never need to roll the major version number. Meanwhile, another potentially great framework has come along: Shale. Like Struts, Shale is MVC web framework, but it doesn't share any code or architectural hallmarks with Struts 1.x. We could call it Struts 2.x, but we could also fork Maverick, Spring MVC, Tapestry, or WebWork and call any of those Struts 2.x, if that's what the community wanted. But, as near as we can tell, that's not what they community wants. The volunteers are showing by their commits that we want to evolve Struts 1.x and, at the same time, also work on Shale 1.x. As someone mentioned elsewhere: different strokes for different folks: different technologies for different requirements. People wanted to do both and proved it with their commits. So both is what we are doing :) And, if someone comes up with a third thing, based on dynamic ECMA Script or something, maybe we'll do that too. :) -Ted. -- --- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:31:28 -0500, Alex Kravets wrote: Ted, I hope you don't think that we (well me at least) seem to be accusation in our e-mails. That is not the case. I am just sharing my thoughts on where this or that approach might lead in the future. It might sound unappreciative when guys spend thousands of hours perfecting/making better something and other guys try to critique it without knowing what labor was put into this work, but that's the nature of users: bitch, bitch, bitch (I know it myself). No hard feeling I hope :) I just get confused when people seem to abscribe our motivations to economic or competitive forces. It's not like that. We write stuff so that we can use it ourselves, and then share what we write with the group, who help us improve it. Marketshare and capitalism have little or nothing to do with it. Case in point. I'm doing a private class on Advanced Struts next week. Client put alternatives to Struts on the agenda. Since client is in Boston, I pinged Howard Lewis Ship, and he's going to do a session on Tapestry and Hivemind for us. We're all friends here. :) Of course, if choice is an issue for someone, there's always .NET/Mono. :) But, I can tell you, even on a MS-dominanted platform, choice is rampant. It may not be as high-level as choosing between Struts or Tapestry, but it's there. And, as we continue to port Java-bred libraries, like iBATIS and Lucene, to .NET/Mono, more and more choice will rear its head. Why is there choice? Not because of capitalism or competition. There's no reason why we would want to compete with Tapestry or WebWorks. These frameworks are all free. There's little or no profit motive. Moreover, it's not hard to become a committer on an open source project if you are willing to do the work. There's choice because writing applications is still way too much work, and we're still finding better ways to bang the rock together. Finding new ways means choosing between between them, at least until time and evolution have a chance to sort it all out. Does anyone know the absolutely best way to to write an web application? I hope not! Given how I still spend my days, I'm hoping we haven't invented it yet. :) And, I wager by the time we do, years from now, someone will have reinvented the web, and we'll have to start all over again. :( -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:03:09 -0500, Alex Kravets wrote: So what do you guys think? http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=31509 An important clarification we'll make to the FAQ is that by doing our job right we mean not break backward compatibility in the ongoing 1.x series. There's more than a few things that people want to do with Struts 1.x yet. We're approaching Struts 1.3, and already, the Milestone page [http://struts.apache.org/milestones.html] is looking forward to Struts 1.6. If need be, we can go on to Struts 1.42 or Struts 1.2025. If there's interest, there could be another five, ten, or fifty years of Struts 1.x development. A year ago, we talked about a Struts 2.x revolution to give us a clean start on the codebase. But, most everyone wanted to evolve the Struts 1.x codebase instead. So, that's what we are doing: evolving Struts 1.x, step by step, innovation by innovation, deprecation by deprecation :) If we never break backward compatibility, and we never start a new codebase, then we never need to roll the major version number. Meanwhile, another potentially great framework has come along: Shale. Like Struts, Shale is MVC web framework, but it doesn't share any code or architectural hallmarks with Struts 1.x. We could call it Struts 2.x, but we could also fork Maverick, Spring MVC, Tapestry, or WebWork and call any of those Struts 2.x, if that's what the community wanted. But, as near as we can tell, that's not what they community wants. The volunteers are showing by their commits that we want to evolve Struts 1.x and, at the same time, also work on Shale 1.x. As someone mentioned elsewhere: different strokes for different folks: different technologies for different requirements. People wanted to do both and proved it with their commits. So both is what we are doing :) And, if someone comes up with a third thing, based on dynamic ECMA Script or something, maybe we'll do that too. :) -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
snip On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 06:50:13 -0500, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Meanwhile, another potentially great framework has come along: Shale. Like Struts, Shale is MVC web framework, but it doesn't share any code or architectural hallmarks with Struts 1.x. /ship As Rod Johnson (the brrains behind Spring) says: Do not try to combine approaches that do not naturally fit. Struts is at its core concerned with request-driven web MVC, while JSF is focused on page-centric RAD with per event action listeners. Both approaches have merit, but trying to combine them does not add much value except for interim solutions when migrating from one to the other. Please don't respond to this email by saying that those who do can do anything they like. They can, of course, but that does not mean it makes much sense except for marketing purposes for JSF. (I personally think that this will just confuse people to no end and that before the tools that JSF is built to accommodate come out, those who are expected to use it and are taregeted to do so will have gone elsewhere. We'll see.) Struts-Shale is purely a market ploy for Sun's JSF and has nothing to do with Struts other than the Struts committers got roped-a-doped. However, if the Struts community has had a failure of nerve in the marketplace of controller based MVC frameworks and no longer wishes to seriously compete in this area (ceding with Craig that other MVC frameworks are superior) but merely to take care of the old product, this probably does not matter. If Ted is abandoning Jericho, then the place to develop Struts-like frameworks is probably elsewhere, in my opinion. And, despite pressure the the contrary, I am entitled to my opinion. It will be interesting to see what happens down the road. As Rod Johnson also says: Newer JSF early access releases seem to address everything that Struts does in terms of action and form handling, rendering Struts-JSF integration little use except for migration-path and marketing purposes. If Struts is not going to develop but rather is merely going to give its name to JSF and keep doing what it is doing in the 1.x series, abandoning any idea of web-modernity as in Jericho, then I am soon off to another (as Craig says) superior true MVC framework like Spring. I hope this does not create a rash of silly and personal responses as it usually does. I do have a serious question which I hope can be answered with out all the bile that is typical in this area. How is JSF or Shale MVC? Where is the C? I know that this is called a View Controller, etc. But, that is just another 1984ish use of a word, isn't it? The point of MVC is that the architecture *separates* the M, the V and C, but in Shale or JSF there is only an M and a V, aren't there? -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. Heaven has changed. The Sky now goes all the way to our feet. ~Dakota Jack~ This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
Got it! Don't worry, we learn quickly. .V Dakota Jack wrote: snip Please don't respond to this email .. -- Forums, Boards, Blogs and News in RiA http://www.boardVU.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
Any comments, Craig? I know it's a bit flamy, but would be interested in your perspective. cheers, David |-+ | | Dakota Jack | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | l.com | | || | | 02/01/2005 11:04 | | | AM | | | Please respond to| | | Struts Users| | | Mailing List| | || |-+ ---| | | | To: Struts Users Mailing List user@struts.apache.org | | cc: | | Subject: Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?] | ---| snip On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 06:50:13 -0500, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Meanwhile, another potentially great framework has come along: Shale. Like Struts, Shale is MVC web framework, but it doesn't share any code or architectural hallmarks with Struts 1.x. /ship As Rod Johnson (the brrains behind Spring) says: Do not try to combine approaches that do not naturally fit. Struts is at its core concerned with request-driven web MVC, while JSF is focused on page-centric RAD with per event action listeners. Both approaches have merit, but trying to combine them does not add much value except for interim solutions when migrating from one to the other. Please don't respond to this email by saying that those who do can do anything they like. They can, of course, but that does not mean it makes much sense except for marketing purposes for JSF. (I personally think that this will just confuse people to no end and that before the tools that JSF is built to accommodate come out, those who are expected to use it and are taregeted to do so will have gone elsewhere. We'll see.) Struts-Shale is purely a market ploy for Sun's JSF and has nothing to do with Struts other than the Struts committers got roped-a-doped. However, if the Struts community has had a failure of nerve in the marketplace of controller based MVC frameworks and no longer wishes to seriously compete in this area (ceding with Craig that other MVC frameworks are superior) but merely to take care of the old product, this probably does not matter. If Ted is abandoning Jericho, then the place to develop Struts-like frameworks is probably elsewhere, in my opinion. And, despite pressure the the contrary, I am entitled to my opinion. It will be interesting to see what happens down the road. As Rod Johnson also says: Newer JSF early access releases seem to address everything that Struts does in terms of action and form handling, rendering Struts-JSF integration little use except for migration-path and marketing purposes. If Struts is not going to develop but rather is merely going to give its name to JSF and keep doing what it is doing in the 1.x series, abandoning any idea of web-modernity as in Jericho, then I am soon off to another (as Craig says) superior true MVC framework like Spring. I hope this does not create a rash of silly and personal responses as it usually does. I do have a serious question which I hope can be answered with out all the bile that is typical in this area. How is JSF or Shale MVC? Where is the C? I know that this is called a View Controller, etc. But, that is just another 1984ish use of a word, isn't it? The point of MVC is that the architecture *separates* the M, the V and C, but in Shale or JSF there is only an M and a V, aren't there? -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. Heaven has changed. The Sky now goes all the way to our feet. ~Dakota Jack~ This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
It says bellow that ... DHay at LexMark has signature of Dakota Jack if I read it right in the post. (The 2 of them care then). Also known as Michael McGrady http://theserverside.com/user/userthreads.tss?user_id=439796 on the server side as Dakota Jack. Any more ? If so, why? Ah.. you may need medical help. .V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any comments, Craig? I know it's a bit flamy, but would be interested in your perspective. cheers, David |-+ | | Dakota Jack | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | l.com | | || | | 02/01/2005 11:04 | | | AM | | | Please respond to| | | Struts Users| | | Mailing List| | || |-+ ---| - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
That link doesn't work for mebut this does... http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=31509#message154946 So, it says Posted by: Michael McGrady on February 01, 2005 in Yes, signs by the name Dakota Jack. So, which is it? -- James Mitchell Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist EdgeTech, Inc. 678.910.8017 AIM: jmitchtx - Original Message - From: Vic [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: user@struts.apache.org Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:26 PM Subject: Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?] It says bellow that ... DHay at LexMark has signature of Dakota Jack if I read it right in the post. (The 2 of them care then). Also known as Michael McGrady http://theserverside.com/user/userthreads.tss?user_id=439796 on the server side as Dakota Jack. Any more ? If so, why? Ah.. you may need medical help. .V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any comments, Craig? I know it's a bit flamy, but would be interested in your perspective. cheers, David |-+ | | Dakota Jack | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | l.com | | || | | 02/01/2005 11:04 | | | AM | | | Please respond to| | | Struts Users| | | Mailing List| | || |-+ ---| - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
Sorry, Vic, you might be the one the needs medical help!! I simply replied to Jack's post, and I guess there's something within the email stuff that puts Jack's footer on something. I can assure you that I am not Jack, nor know him except through this list! cheers, David PS Maybe it will put your footer on this, Vic, and then people will think that I'm you too! |-+ | | Vic | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | | | | Sent by: news| | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | rg | | || | || | | 02/01/2005 12:26 | | | PM | | | Please respond to| | | Struts Users| | | Mailing List| | || |-+ ---| | | | To: user@struts.apache.org | | cc: | | Subject: Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?] | ---| It says bellow that ... DHay at LexMark has signature of Dakota Jack if I read it right in the post. (The 2 of them care then). Also known as Michael McGrady http://theserverside.com/user/userthreads.tss?user_id=439796 on the server side as Dakota Jack. Any more ? If so, why? Ah.. you may need medical help. .V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any comments, Craig? I know it's a bit flamy, but would be interested in your perspective. cheers, David |-+ | | Dakota Jack | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | l.com | | || | | 02/01/2005 11:04 | | | AM | | | Please respond to| | | Struts Users| | | Mailing List| | || |-+ ---| - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:04:16 -0800, Dakota Jack wrote: Please don't respond to this email by saying that those who do can do anything they like. They can, of course, but that does not mean it makes much sense except for marketing purposes for JSF. (I personally think that this will just confuse people to no end and that before the tools that JSF is built to accommodate come out, those who are expected to use it and are taregeted to do so will have gone elsewhere. We'll see.) Struts-Shale is purely a market ploy for Sun's JSF and has nothing to do with Struts other than the Struts committers got roped-a-doped. This is just plain wrong. There is more Struts 1.x development going on now than ever before. Some people wanted to work on Shale as well as Struts 1.x, so we opened a subproject. No big woof. What people either fail or refuse to recognize is that the ASF is an *non-profit* organization. We can't market anything. We provide services to the community for the greater good. It's not about competition, and it's not about marketing. It's about community service. It's about volunteers contributing to the project. People are volunteering to work on Struts 1.x, and people are also volunteering to work on Shale 1.x. So that's what we are doing: Struts 1.x and Shale 1.x. Again, no big woof. One developer's confusion is another developer's choice. Choice is good. -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:12:49 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any comments, Craig? I know it's a bit flamy, but would be interested in your perspective. Shale actually follows Rod's advice about not mixing metaphors -- that's why it is NOT mixed in with Struts 1.x's request processor paradigm (although you can do the same sorts of things with the outer Filter if you need them -- there's still a front controller there). Beyond that, I lost interest in responding to Dakota Jack a couple weeks ago, so won't be addressing the same questions from him yet again here ... you'll find previous responses to the substantive issues in the archives of the developer mailing list. Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
