Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Actually, this did not help me at all. I understand that differences, etc. I just wondered what you thought, since I thought your conclusions were contrary to the facts. On 7/3/05, Gregory Seidman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 11:48:37PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote: } What is your basis for your assessment of .NET and Struts? What sort } of problem are you talking about/ My assessment is based on my own development experience with both, plus lurking on this list for a few years. I will reiterate that I am not interested in converting Java/Struts developers to C#/.NET developers; I want Java and Struts to be the best they can be, and that knowing the competition is a step toward that. I posted something fairly in-depth about the advantages of C#-the-language over Java-the-language. Check the archives for the last couple of days. A few of those advantages have to do with the .NET runtime itself (in particular, 1) properties being first-class reflectable objects, just like methods and members, rather than derived from the JavaBeans get/set naming convention, and 2) events and delegate (method pointer) types being first-class reflectable objects rather than using interfaces for handlers). For now, Java has the advantages of generics and anonymous inner classes over C#, but the next version of C# (due out this year, and what I'm hearing about the betas leads me to believe that it will actually be out this year) supports both of those and simplifies a few other common idioms (iteration, in particular). I have not done any comparison of .NET vs. Java performance, nor have I compared their garbage collection strategies or threading models. They seem to be pretty similar, and they can be expected to maintain very similar performance profiles since the optimization techniques for such things are old in academia and well-published. Their different choices of performance tradeoffs may eventually effect their usefulness for particular purposes, at which point it may be appropriate to choose one or the other based on one's specific application. The APIs (system libraries and extension libraries) considered part of either Java or .NET are pretty similar. Java has a much larger set of third-party free libraries (in good part thanks to Apache's Jakarta project), but many of those are being ported to .NET. On the other hand, there are many commercially-licensed components for .NET, and there are likely to be more, simply because it is in the Microsoft world. I don't have exact (or meaningful) figures on this, so take it with a grain of salt. Anecdotally, I can say that in a previous project I sought a particular ASP.NET control and found dozens of candidates, commercial and otherwise, and the one that best suited our application was commercial. (We bought it, we used it, their tech support was excellent (including accepting patches from me), and it did what we needed.) Comparing JSP and Struts to ASP.NET turns up sharp corners in both. It's very easy to encapsulate functionality in a custom tag in ASP.NET, much harder to do so for JSP. Struts abstracts away the specifics of the generated HTML (both outgoing HTML and incoming form data), which supports the MVC model; ASP.NET requires a bit more hoop-jumping to do so. Validation, both server-side and client-side, is far easier in ASP.NET than with Struts. ASP.NET has almost no configuration required other than the .aspx/.ascx (equivalent to .jsp) files themselves, whereas Struts requires a configuration file that grows increasingly complicated as the site grows larger (though, to its credit, it does centralize the transition graph of the site). Neither Struts nor ASP.NET cares much about business objects, but both can deal with them just like any other object. Finally, while ASP.NET scales well from a single page to an entire site, Struts doesn't really shine until you get to at least 5-10 separate forms/pages. I hope this is a useful answer to your question. --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
What is your basis for your assessment of .NET and Struts? What sort of problem are you talking about/ On 7/2/05, Gregory Seidman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 03:32:00AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote: } Btw... Can you name 10 successful .NET sites? Something clearly above 100 } Million PIs / month, better 1 billion PIs ? } I'd be really interested :-) I don't know that anyone keeps a list around, but this is a foolish challenge to give without checking Google: 1) www.donotcall.gov 2) www.gop.com 3) www.us.playstation.com 4) www.computerjobs.com 5) www.xanga.com 6) asp.usatoday.com 7) online.firstusa.com 8) www.bankone.com 9) www.careerbuilder.com 10) finance.lycos.com Of course, I can't make any guarantees on how much traffic these sites get. They are, however, pretty popular. That said, it matters very little how many sites are successfully using it. I only know of one successfully deployed LISP-based site, but that doesn't mean it isn't excellent technology (see http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html). If it's a matter of being able to find people to maintain the software in the future, you are almost always better off choosing Microsoft technologies, though both Java and C++ are pretty strong in that area as well. Struts? Maybe not so much. JSF? Still new, which makes it risky. In any case, I'm not trying to post flamebait here, nor do I wish to engage in an argument. I would like Java and J2EE/JSF/Struts/API of the month to be better than any Microsoft offering. I will have to learn more about JSF, since it seems to be getting there. I can say that Java/JSP/Struts falls short of C#/.NET/ASP.NET at this time. Those of you who have never tried doing anything with C# and ASP.NET should try it out, just to know the competition and to gain some perspective on the sharp corners of what you are currently using that you have grown too used to for them to register as worth fixing. } Regards } Leon --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 03:32:00AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote: } Btw... Can you name 10 successful .NET sites? Something clearly above 100 } Million PIs / month, better 1 billion PIs ? } I'd be really interested :-) I don't know that anyone keeps a list around, but this is a foolish challenge to give without checking Google: 1) www.donotcall.gov 2) www.gop.com 3) www.us.playstation.com 4) www.computerjobs.com 5) www.xanga.com 6) asp.usatoday.com 7) online.firstusa.com 8) www.bankone.com 9) www.careerbuilder.com 10) finance.lycos.com Of course, I can't make any guarantees on how much traffic these sites get. They are, however, pretty popular. That said, it matters very little how many sites are successfully using it. I only know of one successfully deployed LISP-based site, but that doesn't mean it isn't excellent technology (see http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html). If it's a matter of being able to find people to maintain the software in the future, you are almost always better off choosing Microsoft technologies, though both Java and C++ are pretty strong in that area as well. Struts? Maybe not so much. JSF? Still new, which makes it risky. In any case, I'm not trying to post flamebait here, nor do I wish to engage in an argument. I would like Java and J2EE/JSF/Struts/API of the month to be better than any Microsoft offering. I will have to learn more about JSF, since it seems to be getting there. I can say that Java/JSP/Struts falls short of C#/.NET/ASP.NET at this time. Those of you who have never tried doing anything with C# and ASP.NET should try it out, just to know the competition and to gain some perspective on the sharp corners of what you are currently using that you have grown too used to for them to register as worth fixing. } Regards } Leon --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Gregory Seidman wrote: Of course, I can't make any guarantees on how much traffic these sites get. They are, however, pretty popular. This is a good list: http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_500 So it this: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html In this 2nd you can see that MS has less than 30% market and shrinking - 2nd diagram. When I did a site that was ASP (ex http://people.1up.com - w/ 10MM members) client wanted something secure. .NET does not run well on Linux for large sites and that was that. So they dumped .NET. Using the new version of FrontPage in VS 2005, do you think you can do a page like ps2.1up.com, that automatical changes when you do pc.1up.com? It's the same page! I am so not trying to sell you on using text editor... I WANT you to use GUI tools. (You know they trained an elephat to paint by the #'s). For heavy lifting... jEdit(for Groovy) and X-Develop(when doing ANSI C#) will do ya. Refactoring is *NOT* a waste of time nor indication of bad design. Why would I want to teach you to be more productive? Plese use GUI and VS and FrontPage and Wizards. I think that there are much more productive aproaches, but no need for me to wear it on the sleave. This is not a religois langage war, people that did good Java will do good C# and the other way arround. In general, I am a libreterain, and as such I do not think stupidity should be outlawed. I am all for stupidity ;-) Struts is not here to defend J2EE, go to EJB or JSF list please and tell them .NET is better for corporate development! .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Yan Hu wrote: How many people could afford Picaso? That is excatly why .NET is creeping up so fast. After you told us about 1000 times that there are much more jobs for .NET as for java i tested it myself. Monster search for java: 25 pages Monster search for .NET 17 pages +47% for java Stepstone same search: Java - 362 Offers .NET - 98 Offers +269% for java Jobpilot.de Java - 1094 Offers .NET - 334 Offers +227% for Java All searches executed on german pages. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Yan Hu wrote: How many people could afford Picaso? That is excatly why .NET is creeping up so fast. After you told us about 1000 times that there are much more jobs for .NET as for java i tested it myself. Monster search for java: 25 pages Monster search for .NET 17 pages +47% for java Stepstone same search: Java - 362 Offers .NET - 98 Offers +269% for java Jobpilot.de Java - 1094 Offers .NET - 334 Offers +227% for Java All searches executed on german pages. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
--- Leon Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yan Hu wrote: How many people could afford Picaso? That is excatly why .NET is creeping up so fast. After you told us about 1000 times that there are much more jobs for .NET as for java i tested it myself. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said there are much more jobs for .NET. How long has been .NET around? 2-3 years..right? How long has Java or J2EE been around? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AW: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Yan Hu wrote: Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said there are much more jobs for .NET. How long has been .NET around? 2-3 years..right? How long has Java or J2EE been around? And Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, .Net took only 20% of the server side market. Now it is creeping up to 40%. .Net is better or faster than Java? Nah. Btw... Can you name 10 successful .NET sites? Something clearly above 100 Million PIs / month, better 1 billion PIs ? I'd be really interested :-) Regards Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AW: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Yan Hu wrote: Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said there are much more jobs for .NET. How long has been .NET around? 2-3 years..right? How long has Java or J2EE been around? And Look at the job market for the server side now. 3 years ago, .Net took only 20% of the server side market. Now it is creeping up to 40%. .Net is better or faster than Java? Nah. Btw... Can you name 10 successful .NET sites? Something clearly above 100 Million PIs / month, better 1 billion PIs ? I'd be really interested :-) Regards Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Btw... Can you name 10 successful .NET sites? Something clearly above 100 Million PIs / month, better 1 billion PIs ? I'd be really interested :-) You see you are missing the whole point here. I have been a long time believer that J2EE is good for big honking things. But .NET is eating up the small business sectors. I am talking about small to medium sized apps here. large sites also use .NET such as www.dell.com and I believe there are a lot more out there I am too lazy to google it right now.. I believe you could find them yourself... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
