Re: Ashikhmin-Shirley Highlights for RS3D
I had a much more detailed look at the shaders you mention - you're doing an awesome job! I'm just curious: the algorithms are quite complex - how do you test whether you've implemented them properly in VSL? Is there a standard rendering test that you can compare your results with, or is it a case of just checking your VSL formulas carefully? Amir On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 06:45:23 +0100 mengil...@gmx.net wrote: > The Ashikhmin-Shirley BRDF is something like a mixture of a > Ward-anisotropic-like specular reflection component and a limb-darkening > diffuse reflection component. > Meaning that it enables isotropic (simple point-shaped) and anisotropic > (streched along a direction of the surface) highlights. > Pictures and explanation will follow when I got it working right, though I´m > a bit tired of working this out. > I´ve worked on some shaders for RS3D for the last two months, to an extent > where I hardly did anything else in my free time. > > So, several other shaders will follow. > I´ve already made two Oren-Nayar Diffuse shaders, one simple and one > complete, am working on a Oren-Nayar-Wolff Diffuse shader (like the previous > plus some refinements), two Hapke-Lommel-Seeliger shaders, one simple and one > complex, two Minnaert Shaders, an Asperity Scattering shader, plus several > other components. > The Oren-Nayar Shader is a diffuse shader suitable for rough diffuse surface > (like clay/pottery), the Hapke-Lommel-Seeliger Shader is a shader for powdery > surfaces like the surface of the moon, the Minnaert Shader was an early try > on the same matter, the Asperity Scattering Shader is for simulating fuzzy > surfaces (like peach). > The latter two are very similar to the "simple fur" and "custom fur" > materials already in RS3D.
Re: Location of project files
Actually, after looking at it in more detail, I don't think this file is meant to be edited. What LeeE says is my experience too: when you open a file, RS3D uses that as the default directory next time around. On Sat, 08 Jan 2011 09:01:42 +0200 Ville Tirronen wrote: > I have tried to edit the Realsoft3d file but it doesn't work. What line > should I change? > > Ville
Re: Location of project files
I have tried to edit the Realsoft3d file but it doesn't work. What line should I change? Ville On 01/07/2011 07:42 PM, Amir Ansari wrote: There appears to be a configuration file: ~/.realsoft/Realsoft3D-7.0/resources/Realsoft3D It probably saves the changes each time you close the application, so you may be able to edit the paths here... On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 16:04:57 +0200 Ville Tirronen wrote: This one's for linux version. How can i define where RS3D searches project files when I open file from "Open" dialog? It allways points to my home directory but I would like it point into my samba share. Ville
Re: Ashikhmin-Shirley Highlights for RS3D
My god Martin, you scared me. You are way too much advance for me with shaders. You are gonna need the help from the Avatar Technical Director. Sorry, but I won't even try to read your question. My brain could explode. Good luck. Jean-Sebastien Perron www.NeuroWorld.ws On 11-01-07 12:45 AM, mengil...@gmx.net wrote: First of all: Thanks! =D It was so quiet that I had even thought my mails would perhaps for some strange reason have not been received. So, regarding the shader(s): The Ashikhmin-Shirley BRDF is something like a mixture of a Ward-anisotropic-like specular reflection component and a limb-darkening diffuse reflection component. Meaning that it enables isotropic (simple point-shaped) and anisotropic (streched along a direction of the surface) highlights. Pictures and explanation will follow when I got it working right, though I´m a bit tired of working this out. I´ve worked on some shaders for RS3D for the last two months, to an extent where I hardly did anything else in my free time. So, several other shaders will follow. I´ve already made two Oren-Nayar Diffuse shaders, one simple and one complete, am working on a Oren-Nayar-Wolff Diffuse shader (like the previous plus some refinements), two Hapke-Lommel-Seeliger shaders, one simple and one complex, two Minnaert Shaders, an Asperity Scattering shader, plus several other components. The Oren-Nayar Shader is a diffuse shader suitable for rough diffuse surface (like clay/pottery), the Hapke-Lommel-Seeliger Shader is a shader for powdery surfaces like the surface of the moon, the Minnaert Shader was an early try on the same matter, the Asperity Scattering Shader is for simulating fuzzy surfaces (like peach). The latter two are very similar to the "simple fur" and "custom fur" materials already in RS3D. So, really quite a lot. And honestly I´m more than a bit proud of myself because I had NEVER done something even remotely familiar to this before. But, every time I think the shaders are ready for release, I see some new problems. One general problem seems to be that I often don´t know how to handle the values obtained through the shading algorithms. My understanding of the matter is still rudimentary, but as I see it, a BRDF (bidirectional reflectance distribution function) like the previously mentioned simply works different to how RS3D handles things. Especially the Ashikhmin-Shirley BRDF seems to be made for a rendering engine that supports pathtracing. The paper which describes the BRDF gives methods to obtain blurred reflections that depend on the parameters of the shader - a highly anisotropic setting would produce highly anisotropicly blurred reflections. I don´t know how to simulate this in RS3D. And I get the feeling that it isn´t possible at all, as long as RS3D doesn´t implement pathtracing or the likes. This kinda makes me sad because I´ve now seen a great bunch of shading algorithms that could pretty simply be implemented into RS3D to simulate a wide variety of phenomena very realistically, if RS3D supported pathtracing and wavelength-dependency. When even I as a former total noob can get a glimpse of what is needed to do that, it shouldn´t be that hard to implement things like diffraction, dispersion, blurred reflections and refractions, subsurface scattering, Mie scattering for clouds and Rayleigh scattering for atmospheric effects. The papers are out there, some aren´t even two years old with models that seem to top the models that are in use by other packages. But perhaps RS3D already offers possibilities to incorporate these things effectively, and I just haven´t come to know them; documentation is just too sparse in this area. And it makes me sad that there is no dialog between Realsoft and us users regarding these matters. Many of these things (subsurface scattering, pathtracing/GI, etc.) have been talked about and demanded by users over and over again, for years. I can only say it again - almost every other render-engine, be it freeware or commercial, be it standalone or part of a suite, has outrun RS3D in this respect. And then it becomes clear that Realsoft already works on V8 - and still there is no talk about any of this, no "What do you users want most in V8?", not even a hint at what will be the new features of V8. *sigh* Well, however. I will post pictures and documentation for the shader, plus the other shaders, when I have gotten them to a degree that you can rely on them working. Thanks for reading. :) Martin PS: And you´re right that a forum is in many respects much better than an email list; and that it doesn´t matter though if not enough people are participating... Original-Nachricht Datum: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 02:39:31 -0500 Von: Jean-Sebastien Perron An: user-list@light.realsoft3d.com Betreff: Re: Ashikhmin-Shirley Highlights for RS3D post a picture instead of the shader result and a screen capture of your shader window. I d
Re: Location of project files
There appears to be a configuration file: ~/.realsoft/Realsoft3D-7.0/resources/Realsoft3D It probably saves the changes each time you close the application, so you may be able to edit the paths here... On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 16:04:57 +0200 Ville Tirronen wrote: > > This one's for linux version. How can i define where RS3D searches > project files when I > open file from "Open" dialog? > > It allways points to my home directory but I would like it point into my > samba share. > > Ville
Re: Location of project files
On Friday 07 Jan 2011, Ville Tirronen wrote: > This one's for linux version. How can i define where RS3D > searches project files when I > open file from "Open" dialog? > > It allways points to my home directory but I would like it point > into my samba share. > > Ville Hmm... I'm using RS3D V6 Linux and when I do File -> Open, the Load (file) selector dialogue points at the last directory that I saved anything in - in my case this will be a sub-directory of my RS3D projects directory, which is on an NFS share. Note that RS3D must terminate normally i.e. it must shutdown with no errors, for the last saved-to directory to be saved; if RS3D crashes for any reason, or you have to kill it then the last saved-to directory will not be remembered. LeeE
Re: Ashikhmin-Shirley Highlights for RS3D
Martin, Wow! You have been quietly hard at work on these shaders. I'm looking forward to seeing them. I get "warm shader fuzzies" I have not felt since back in 2006 when /Tim/ Borgmann posted his various rope and string shaders he used in many of his outstanding pictures: http://www.realsoft.com/productinfo/kpics/Macversion5.jpg Thank you in advance for your hard work and contributions. Regards, Brandon On 1/6/2011 10:45 PM, mengil...@gmx.net wrote: First of all: Thanks! =D It was so quiet that I had even thought my mails would perhaps for some strange reason have not been received. So, regarding the shader(s): The Ashikhmin-Shirley BRDF is something like a mixture of a Ward-anisotropic-like specular reflection component and a limb-darkening diffuse reflection component. Meaning that it enables isotropic (simple point-shaped) and anisotropic (streched along a direction of the surface) highlights. Pictures and explanation will follow when I got it working right, though I´m a bit tired of working this out. I´ve worked on some shaders for RS3D for the last two months, to an extent where I hardly did anything else in my free time. So, several other shaders will follow. I´ve already made two Oren-Nayar Diffuse shaders, one simple and one complete, am working on a Oren-Nayar-Wolff Diffuse shader (like the previous plus some refinements), two Hapke-Lommel-Seeliger shaders, one simple and one complex, two Minnaert Shaders, an Asperity Scattering shader, plus several other components. The Oren-Nayar Shader is a diffuse shader suitable for rough diffuse surface (like clay/pottery), the Hapke-Lommel-Seeliger Shader is a shader for powdery surfaces like the surface of the moon, the Minnaert Shader was an early try on the same matter, the Asperity Scattering Shader is for simulating fuzzy surfaces (like peach). The latter two are very similar to the "simple fur" and "custom fur" materials already in RS3D. So, really quite a lot. And honestly I´m more than a bit proud of myself because I had NEVER done something even remotely familiar to this before. But, every time I think the shaders are ready for release, I see some new problems. One general problem seems to be that I often don´t know how to handle the values obtained through the shading algorithms. My understanding of the matter is still rudimentary, but as I see it, a BRDF (bidirectional reflectance distribution function) like the previously mentioned simply works different to how RS3D handles things. Especially the Ashikhmin-Shirley BRDF seems to be made for a rendering engine that supports pathtracing. The paper which describes the BRDF gives methods to obtain blurred reflections that depend on the parameters of the shader - a highly anisotropic setting would produce highly anisotropicly blurred reflections. I don´t know how to simulate this in RS3D. And I get the feeling that it isn´t possible at all, as long as RS3D doesn´t implement pathtracing or the likes. This kinda makes me sad because I´ve now seen a great bunch of shading algorithms that could pretty simply be implemented into RS3D to simulate a wide variety of phenomena very realistically, if RS3D supported pathtracing and wavelength-dependency. When even I as a former total noob can get a glimpse of what is needed to do that, it shouldn´t be that hard to implement things like diffraction, dispersion, blurred reflections and refractions, subsurface scattering, Mie scattering for clouds and Rayleigh scattering for atmospheric effects. The papers are out there, some aren´t even two years old with models that seem to top the models that are in use by other packages. But perhaps RS3D already offers possibilities to incorporate these things effectively, and I just haven´t come to know them; documentation is just too sparse in this area. And it makes me sad that there is no dialog between Realsoft and us users regarding these matters. Many of these things (subsurface scattering, pathtracing/GI, etc.) have been talked about and demanded by users over and over again, for years. I can only say it again - almost every other render-engine, be it freeware or commercial, be it standalone or part of a suite, has outrun RS3D in this respect. And then it becomes clear that Realsoft already works on V8 - and still there is no talk about any of this, no "What do you users want most in V8?", not even a hint at what will be the new features of V8. *sigh* Well, however. I will post pictures and documentation for the shader, plus the other shaders, when I have gotten them to a degree that you can rely on them working. Thanks for reading. :) Martin
Location of project files
This one's for linux version. How can i define where RS3D searches project files when I open file from "Open" dialog? It allways points to my home directory but I would like it point into my samba share. Ville
Re: Ashikhmin-Shirley Highlights for RS3D
You deliberately want to motivate me, right? ;-) Good to hear that someone could find use for those shaders. Regarding Realsoft: Perhaps then it´s their vision that I can´t agree on. They´ve often shown pure genius. But then important features that have been demanded by the users for years aren´t even talked about by the developers until today. May be that it´s my ego and I shouldn´t care that much. I must confess that I believe to have some good ideas, and perhaps I just miss the chance to bring them into a discussion of new features. Like e. g. the way that materials are handled with it´s unsystematic multitude of possibilities (like SDK-C/C++, JavaScript, V3-Material, VSL-Material, Procedure Library, Templates, etc.) I could write a lot about that. Writing it down in detail and posting it on the list seems silly though, when I know that most people won´t bother and I won´t get a reaction from the people in charge. On the other hand, not offering my propositions get´s me the feeling of "not having done enough", because for some topics I feel pretty strongly. So, as you see it´s probably just an ego-thing on my side. ;-) Greetz Martin Original-Nachricht > Datum: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 08:15:37 + > Von: leee > An: user-list@light.realsoft3d.com > Betreff: Re: Ashikhmin-Shirley Highlights for RS3D > On Friday 07 Jan 2011, mengil...@gmx.net wrote: > > First of all: Thanks! =D > > It was so quiet that I had even thought my mails would perhaps > > for some strange reason have not been received. > > > > > > So, regarding the shader(s): > [snip...] > > Although I'm not as active as I used to be, re working on 3D > projects, I really appreciated your insights and explanations of > the shaders you have been working on. > > Some of the ideas I've had for pictures, and which I've actually > started working on, have been stymied because I have not been able > to achieve the material effects that would really make the images > work. Some of the shaders you mentioned though, and their effects, > sound just like what I have been looking for, so I hope you > persevere with them. > > Whilst I think I can understand the frustration you feel about the > seeming lack of feedback and response from the RS3D devs, I also > think I understand, at last to some degree, how the Meskanen bros > work. With such a small development team i.e. just the two of > them, the only way that anything can be achieved in reasonable > time-scales is for them to identify what they want to achieve and > then stick to that and not allow themselves to be diverted or > distracted from their 'vision' of what they want to achieve with > RS3D. Although they rarely comment on issues discussed on the > mailing lists, I do beleieve that they take note of what is said > and, where possible, incorporate it into their plans, even if this > may not be apparent in the immediate short term. > > LeeE -- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail
Re: Ashikhmin-Shirley Highlights for RS3D
On Friday 07 Jan 2011, mengil...@gmx.net wrote: > First of all: Thanks! =D > It was so quiet that I had even thought my mails would perhaps > for some strange reason have not been received. > > > So, regarding the shader(s): [snip...] Although I'm not as active as I used to be, re working on 3D projects, I really appreciated your insights and explanations of the shaders you have been working on. Some of the ideas I've had for pictures, and which I've actually started working on, have been stymied because I have not been able to achieve the material effects that would really make the images work. Some of the shaders you mentioned though, and their effects, sound just like what I have been looking for, so I hope you persevere with them. Whilst I think I can understand the frustration you feel about the seeming lack of feedback and response from the RS3D devs, I also think I understand, at last to some degree, how the Meskanen bros work. With such a small development team i.e. just the two of them, the only way that anything can be achieved in reasonable time-scales is for them to identify what they want to achieve and then stick to that and not allow themselves to be diverted or distracted from their 'vision' of what they want to achieve with RS3D. Although they rarely comment on issues discussed on the mailing lists, I do beleieve that they take note of what is said and, where possible, incorporate it into their plans, even if this may not be apparent in the immediate short term. LeeE
