Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
On 23 Apr 2004, at 19:58, Alex Romayev wrote: JXTemplateGenerator is not Cacheable. Is any work being done on this??? Peter - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
One issue with the combination below is that JXTemplateGenerator is not Cacheable. Implementing a custom generator may be a bit more effort, but can pay back in performance. Le 23 avr. 04, à 14:15, Ugo Cei a écrit : > > ...Persistence layer: OJB, Hibernate or similar > O/R mapping tool > > Business logic: Java classes > > Controller: Flowscript > > View: JXTemplateGenerator or Velocity > > > > > > Don't let anyone try to convince you that you can > find a better > > combination for Cocoon. You won't - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Generating XML - Design decisions
> > Persistence layer: OJB, Hibernate or similar O/R mapping tool > > Business logic: Java classes > > Controller: Flowscript > > View: JXTemplateGenerator or Velocity > > Ditto to all of that. I think this is really the killer combo! Since we're on the subject, I'm interested in hearing everybody's thoughts on using Struts for the controller, so the above would be: Persistence layer: OJB, Hibernate or similar O/R mapping tool Business logic: Java classes Controller: Struts View: JXTemplateGenerator or Velocity Thoughts? Personal experiences? Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
On Apr 23, 2004, at 5:15 AM, Ugo Cei wrote: Hildebrandt, Ole wrote: I am fairly new to cocoon and I am planning to use it for a quite big website. I keep thinking what the best way is to genrate XML from a database. Persistence layer: OJB, Hibernate or similar O/R mapping tool Business logic: Java classes Controller: Flowscript View: JXTemplateGenerator or Velocity Ditto to all of that. I think this is really the killer combo! ~mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: People might not realize that for Cocoon a 10'000-pages website generated from a read-only database is not that "big" ;-) Well, just this morning I generated a static snapshot of a Cocoon website totaling a little more than 9800 pages ;-). Most of them are coming from SQL queries. Actually, the site is just an XSP-based prototype, but for the "real thing", which will be dynamically generated, since the number of possible pages will grow exponentially, we are designing an Hibernate/Flowscript/JXTG application. Ugo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
Ugo Cei wrote: Leon Widdershoven wrote: It is, of course, strongly recommended that you have some knowledge about java if you're going to build a O/R bridge. But not that much. I would strongly advise against *building* an O/R bridge. It's not easy at all to get it right and there are many good products available, both Open Source and commercial. Ugo With building a bridge I meant using OJB or hibernate, use the associated tools to generate the classes, perhaps generate a wrapper for more complicated business logc (by e.g. inheriting the generated classes). I did not mean creating yet another O/R toolkit, nor, for a big database, generating the classes by hand. but AFAIK there is no ready made solution which also thinks out the business logic:) Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
Le 23 avr. 04, à 15:52, Ugo Cei a écrit : ...I more or less assumed that a "big" site would also be a complex web site, with a complex information architecture, data model and interaction Sure...but the perception of what is "big" varies widely between people and projects! People might not realize that for Cocoon a 10'000-pages website generated from a read-only database is not that "big" ;-) -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: It mostly depends on what a "quite big web site" is. Generating a couple hundred thousand pages out of a database with direct SQL would be no problem if the database schema is a simple one and if you're doing "read-only" stuff, only generating XML out of the database, not writing to it. I more or less assumed that a "big" site would also be a complex web site, with a complex information architecture, data model and interaction. Of course, it might be that this assumption is totally unwarranted ;-). Ugo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
Hi, I agree with all that has been said here, and as a newbie i can tell XSP+SQL for reading is really easy and OJB not so hard if like me you use 10% of its incredible capabilities. But!!: speaking about full XML website, i'm surprised to see nobody mentioned native XML databases and XML:DB? Phil On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 20:01, Leon Widdershoven wrote: > You could try an Object/Relational bridge, like OJB or Hibernate, > and combine it with Flowscript. > You can use the JX generator to write bean information in the pages > dynamically (using, of course, flowscript and cocoon.sendPage) > > There are tutorials and introductions on the WIKI on that subject. > > It is, of course, strongly recommended that you have some knowledge > about java if you're going to build a O/R bridge. But not that much. > > Javascript (flowscript) is, as I understand, at present the recommended > way to write apps. It is also not hard to learn and Java classes > containing business logic can be called from withing the Javascript > interpreter (Mozilla Rhino). > > OJB and Hibertnate do require some investment in time to get to know it. > I think a day full time playing is not too much, and will give you a > feeling for it. > > Please visit the cocoon wiki and look at the howto's for more info. > > Hope that helped a bit. > > Leon > > Hildebrandt, Ole wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I am fairly new to cocoon and I am planning to use it for a quite big > > website. I keep thinking what the best way is to genrate XML from a > > database. > > > > - XSP seems too complicated and limited and there is no knowledge in the > > developer-team available > > - JSP seems okay, many developers are familiar with it, but are there any > > drawbacks regarding performance (I think JSP-Generator is not cachable, is > > it?) or other things? > > - Writing a new Generator seems to be a too much, and not very practical in > > development since you have to recompile it all the time and cannot make > > changes at runtime > > - Doing it with SQL- and XSLT-Transformers? Not so nice, since IMO the code > > for implementing the logic is spread over too many files (Correct me if i am > > wrong) > > > > It would be really helpful if someone had a pice of advise or any experience > > what approach pays off best > > > > Regards > > > > Ole > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: Generating XML - Design decisions
Hildebrandt, Ole wrote: Hi, Thanks for all the replies. I will have a look at the flowscript, which i ommitted so far, as I thought it is not essential for builing a website that has fairly any user-interactive processes, but is just barely an information-delivery-website. I have been developing some MVC-Webapps with Servlets and JSP and I was hoping to simply adopt this pattern to cocoon (Sitemap == Conroller, XSP or JSP = View, native Java-Class called within views = Pull-Modell). With this approch I could encapsulate all the business-logic in the modell, the sitemap would be responsible for calling the correct view and the views would grep the data from the modell by calling the appropriate method and just perform the Logic for presentation. Is this applicable for cocoon or am I going in the wrong direction with this idea? Personally, I don't like Pull-Model and could point you to this paper [1], where the issue is argued much better than I could hope to do here. However, there's nothing in Cocoon that would stop you from doing that, even if I would rather use JXTemplate or Velocity as template engines, and avoid XSP or JSP. Ugo [1] http://www.cs.usfca.edu/~parrt/papers/mvc.templates.pdf - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
Le 23 avr. 04, à 14:15, Ugo Cei a écrit : ...Persistence layer: OJB, Hibernate or similar O/R mapping tool Business logic: Java classes Controller: Flowscript View: JXTemplateGenerator or Velocity Don't let anyone try to convince you that you can find a better combination for Cocoon. You won't But some of us (some of me at least ;-) still think that direct SQL *might* make sense for the database access layer depending on your app, environment and skills. I'm 100% with Ugo in the general case, but I wouldn't want us to "lose" users because they think they must learn too much stuff to be productive with Cocoon. It mostly depends on what a "quite big web site" is. Generating a couple hundred thousand pages out of a database with direct SQL would be no problem if the database schema is a simple one and if you're doing "read-only" stuff, only generating XML out of the database, not writing to it. Of course, as soon as you start talking transactional processes and/or complex databases, a persistence layer like Hibernate or OJB is way better in terms of clean structure and maintainability. Unfortunately the situation for direct SQL with Cocoon is suboptimal (IMHO) at the moment: the components mentioned by Ugo are the latest and greatest stuff, all very well designed and functional, but the "direct SQL" stuff (ESQL and SQLTransformer) is not as "modern" in concept or as "nice" to write code for. The Groovy-based SQL query stuff could improve things, at least on the "nice to write" front, but it's only vaporware ATM (fairly hot vapor though ;-) Hope this helps, trying not to add to the potential confusion here... -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AW: Generating XML - Design decisions
Hi, Thanks for all the replies. I will have a look at the flowscript, which i ommitted so far, as I thought it is not essential for builing a website that has fairly any user-interactive processes, but is just barely an information-delivery-website. I have been developing some MVC-Webapps with Servlets and JSP and I was hoping to simply adopt this pattern to cocoon (Sitemap == Conroller, XSP or JSP = View, native Java-Class called within views = Pull-Modell). With this approch I could encapsulate all the business-logic in the modell, the sitemap would be responsible for calling the correct view and the views would grep the data from the modell by calling the appropriate method and just perform the Logic for presentation. Is this applicable for cocoon or am I going in the wrong direction with this idea? Kind Regards Ole > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Leon Widdershoven [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 23. April 2004 14:01 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: Generating XML - Design decisions > > > You could try an Object/Relational bridge, like OJB or > Hibernate, and combine it with Flowscript. You can use the JX > generator to write bean information in the pages dynamically > (using, of course, flowscript and cocoon.sendPage) > > There are tutorials and introductions on the WIKI on that subject. > > It is, of course, strongly recommended that you have some > knowledge about java if you're going to build a O/R bridge. > But not that much. > > Javascript (flowscript) is, as I understand, at present the > recommended way to write apps. It is also not hard to learn > and Java classes containing business logic can be called from > withing the Javascript interpreter (Mozilla Rhino). > > OJB and Hibertnate do require some investment in time to get > to know it. I think a day full time playing is not too much, > and will give you a feeling for it. > > Please visit the cocoon wiki and look at the howto's for more info. > > Hope that helped a bit. > > Leon > > Hildebrandt, Ole wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I am fairly new to cocoon and I am planning to use it for a > quite big > > website. I keep thinking what the best way is to genrate XML from a > > database. > > > > - XSP seems too complicated and limited and there is no > knowledge in > > the developer-team available > > - JSP seems okay, many developers are familiar with it, but > are there > > any drawbacks regarding performance (I think JSP-Generator is not > > cachable, is > > it?) or other things? > > - Writing a new Generator seems to be a too much, and not > very practical in > > development since you have to recompile it all the time and > cannot make > > changes at runtime > > - Doing it with SQL- and XSLT-Transformers? Not so nice, > since IMO the code > > for implementing the logic is spread over too many files > (Correct me if i am > > wrong) > > > > It would be really helpful if someone had a pice of advise or any > > experience what approach pays off best > > > > Regards > > > > Ole > > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
Leon Widdershoven wrote: It is, of course, strongly recommended that you have some knowledge about java if you're going to build a O/R bridge. But not that much. I would strongly advise against *building* an O/R bridge. It's not easy at all to get it right and there are many good products available, both Open Source and commercial. Ugo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
Hildebrandt, Ole wrote: I am fairly new to cocoon and I am planning to use it for a quite big website. I keep thinking what the best way is to genrate XML from a database. Persistence layer: OJB, Hibernate or similar O/R mapping tool Business logic: Java classes Controller: Flowscript View: JXTemplateGenerator or Velocity Don't let anyone try to convince you that you can find a better combination for Cocoon. You won't. Ugo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Hi, > I also ask me such a question when I start with Cocoon. > For me, I think that : > 1) You have to use as much as possible the existing generator ans simply pass > them parameters. Reusing existing components is fine, but there is a limit. If you need complicated transformations to postprocess the output, you should consider writing a custom generator. Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
Hey, I think you should consider anyway using XSP. It isn't hard to learn/use (actually to get data from database and convert it to XML it is really simple !!) and the performance should be good (use caching if possible). We use XSP's for data extraction, which also consists of generating (large) XML files from database, and Cocoon/XSP has made this really simple. You can use some java code inside the XSP if you need some extra processing, so XSP isn't that limited... Hope this helps ! Regards, Geert >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/23/04 12:28pm >>> Hi, I am fairly new to cocoon and I am planning to use it for a quite big website. I keep thinking what the best way is to genrate XML from a database. - XSP seems too complicated and limited and there is no knowledge in the developer-team available - JSP seems okay, many developers are familiar with it, but are there any drawbacks regarding performance (I think JSP-Generator is not cachable, is it?) or other things? - Writing a new Generator seems to be a too much, and not very practical in development since you have to recompile it all the time and cannot make changes at runtime - Doing it with SQL- and XSLT-Transformers? Not so nice, since IMO the code for implementing the logic is spread over too many files (Correct me if i am wrong) It would be really helpful if someone had a pice of advise or any experience what approach pays off best Regards Ole - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
You could try an Object/Relational bridge, like OJB or Hibernate, and combine it with Flowscript. You can use the JX generator to write bean information in the pages dynamically (using, of course, flowscript and cocoon.sendPage) There are tutorials and introductions on the WIKI on that subject. It is, of course, strongly recommended that you have some knowledge about java if you're going to build a O/R bridge. But not that much. Javascript (flowscript) is, as I understand, at present the recommended way to write apps. It is also not hard to learn and Java classes containing business logic can be called from withing the Javascript interpreter (Mozilla Rhino). OJB and Hibertnate do require some investment in time to get to know it. I think a day full time playing is not too much, and will give you a feeling for it. Please visit the cocoon wiki and look at the howto's for more info. Hope that helped a bit. Leon Hildebrandt, Ole wrote: Hi, I am fairly new to cocoon and I am planning to use it for a quite big website. I keep thinking what the best way is to genrate XML from a database. - XSP seems too complicated and limited and there is no knowledge in the developer-team available - JSP seems okay, many developers are familiar with it, but are there any drawbacks regarding performance (I think JSP-Generator is not cachable, is it?) or other things? - Writing a new Generator seems to be a too much, and not very practical in development since you have to recompile it all the time and cannot make changes at runtime - Doing it with SQL- and XSLT-Transformers? Not so nice, since IMO the code for implementing the logic is spread over too many files (Correct me if i am wrong) It would be really helpful if someone had a pice of advise or any experience what approach pays off best Regards Ole - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Generating XML - Design decisions
Hi, I also ask me such a question when I start with Cocoon. For me, I think that : 1) You have to use as much as possible the existing generator ans simply pass them parameters. 2) If you have database, you can greatly reduce development time by using XSP and ESQL 3) When there are really specific treatment or when you want to centralize the XML generation,... you can use generator. by example : I use it to generate information coming from Lotus Notes database because there are no ODBC link or not performant to Lotus. Hope it can help Laurent "Hildebrandt, Ole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 23/04/2004 12:28 Please respond to users To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Generating XML - Design decisions Hi, I am fairly new to cocoon and I am planning to use it for a quite big website. I keep thinking what the best way is to genrate XML from a database. - XSP seems too complicated and limited and there is no knowledge in the developer-team available - JSP seems okay, many developers are familiar with it, but are there any drawbacks regarding performance (I think JSP-Generator is not cachable, is it?) or other things? - Writing a new Generator seems to be a too much, and not very practical in development since you have to recompile it all the time and cannot make changes at runtime - Doing it with SQL- and XSLT-Transformers? Not so nice, since IMO the code for implementing the logic is spread over too many files (Correct me if i am wrong) It would be really helpful if someone had a pice of advise or any experience what approach pays off best Regards Ole - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Generating XML - Design decisions
Hi, I am fairly new to cocoon and I am planning to use it for a quite big website. I keep thinking what the best way is to genrate XML from a database. - XSP seems too complicated and limited and there is no knowledge in the developer-team available - JSP seems okay, many developers are familiar with it, but are there any drawbacks regarding performance (I think JSP-Generator is not cachable, is it?) or other things? - Writing a new Generator seems to be a too much, and not very practical in development since you have to recompile it all the time and cannot make changes at runtime - Doing it with SQL- and XSLT-Transformers? Not so nice, since IMO the code for implementing the logic is spread over too many files (Correct me if i am wrong) It would be really helpful if someone had a pice of advise or any experience what approach pays off best Regards Ole - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
