Re: re-design of sitemaps
Stephen Winnall escribió: I understand that sentiment, but it would make sitemaps easier for me if I could validate them in my XML editor. And I suspect that we might have more user-friendly tools for Cocoon to make it easier to grok, if the sitemap could be easily marshalled and unmarshalled (i.e. were based on a schema). A lot of people asked to have an schema of the sitemap, unfortunately nobody cared to update it. If you provide it, I am willing commit it. :) Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re-design of sitemaps
On 8 Jun 2007, at 12:22, Antonio Gallardo wrote: A lot of people asked to have an schema of the sitemap, unfortunately nobody cared to update it. If you provide it, I am willing commit it. :) If I thought it were possible without changing the current syntax of the sitemap, I might try it. The current schema seems to support a best-effort subset: if the things it doesn't support can be deprecated and replaced by the new service/block mechanism, a complete schema might become possible. Perhaps when Cocoon 3 arises on the horizon we could start by re-doing the sitemap :) Steve - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re-design of sitemaps
Stephen Winnall wrote: On 6 Jun 2007, at 18:49, Geert Josten wrote: 3) definition of a sitemap schema http://cocoon.apache.org/schema/sitemap/cocoon-sitemap-1.0.xsd rvlet-service framework? Have you tried validating your own sitemaps to this XSD yet? It contains constructs that allow entry of unknown elements.. I tried a couple of sitemaps before I posted the original comment. One of them was based on the sitemap delivered with Cocoon 2.1.9. Both threw up errors (mainly unknown attributes). I am aware that schemas can be written using the any element for undefined or unknown content, but that seems a bit of a cop-out to me. I don't know what the official adjective is for the class of XML documents for which a complete and correct XML schema can be written: let's use x-able as a place-holder. To the best of my knowledge, the Cocoon sitemap is not x-able, and I think that inhibits the development of useful tools for making Cocoon easier to use. (Perhaps the SunBow or Lepido people could comment on that?) The current schema is a first version which has been tested against all sitemaps of Cocoon 2.2. And they validate against it :) But of course this doesn't guarantee that it's perfect. Now, a schema can only validate the structure (more or less at least), so it can't detect any logical errors one might have in the sitemap like a missing generator or something like that. Custom tags are actually only allowed for component configuration. We could also ignore all elements in other namespaces that might occur throughout the sitemap, but I'm not sure if this is a good idea. I would like to have the schema as strict as possible. If you have a sitemap which does not validate against the schema, it would be great if you could file a bug, so we can enhance the schema. One could think of additional validation tools on top of the schema which try to analyze the logic of the sitemap. Carsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: re-design of sitemaps
Hi, many folks seem confused about XML Schema. If so, they may be confused about DTD or Relax NG as well. All of these are just definitions of a grammar, not semantics. So if a sitemap has been validated with a schema, this means no more than that the sitemap is well-formed XML which complies to the specific grammar in the schema. Just like a traditional parser. Anyway, the big benefit of a complete schema for the sitemap to me is code completion. Now that I have an XML Schema, I can tell my IDE (NetBeans) to aid me with code completion when editing sitemaps. Kind regards, Christian - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re-design of sitemaps
Christian Schlichtherle pisze: Hi, many folks seem confused about XML Schema. If so, they may be confused about DTD or Relax NG as well. All of these are just definitions of a grammar, not semantics. So if a sitemap has been validated with a schema, this means no more than that the sitemap is well-formed XML which complies to the specific grammar in the schema. Just like a traditional parser. Christian, you are of course right but the strictest schema we have the less errors you are going to tackle at a runtime. Anyway, the big benefit of a complete schema for the sitemap to me is code completion. Now that I have an XML Schema, I can tell my IDE (NetBeans) to aid me with code completion when editing sitemaps. Yes, that's the main benefit of having good schema. For all the folks reading this thread: if you see that current schema is not perfect just improve it, send us a path on JIRA and I'm sure that someone will be really happy to submit valuable improvements. -- Grzegorz Kossakowski http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re-design of sitemaps
Stephen Winnall wrote: validation is off by default but can be activated, again only in Cocoon 2.2 Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that it was impossible to write a complete XML schema for the current version of the sitemap. I thought all attempts hitherto were only approximations. One of the major problems is that any extensions a user writes (actions, transformations, etc.) might introduce new elements and attributes into the sitemap which the schema cannot know about a priori. I was looking for a solution where any valid sitemap could be validated against the schema, which seems to me to imply a change in the structure of sitemaps. This is perhaps one of those occasions when a modular DTD might make more sense than a Schema, because local changes can be implemented and tested in the internal subset without the need to coordinate global changes to the distribution. What you lose in data content validation is probably compensated for in additional flexibility. ///Peter - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re-design of sitemaps
Stephen Winnall wrote:
Has anyone given any thought to a re-design of Cocoon's sitemaps in one
of the new versions of Cocoon? I can see scope for improvement in the
following areas:
1) modularisation
Cocoon 2.2 uses the servlet-service framework. See
http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/cdocs/g2/g2/g1/1291.html
2) re-use of definitions (e.g. action sets, resources)
also see http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/cdocs/g2/g2/g1/1291.html. there is
an example of a servlet-service transformer.
3) definition of a sitemap schema
http://cocoon.apache.org/schema/sitemap/cocoon-sitemap-1.0.xsd
4) requirement that sitemaps validate against that schema (would make it
easier to write sitemap tools)
validation is off by default but can be activated, again only in Cocoon 2.2
These are just things that have bitten me. I'm sure other people will
be able to add to this list.
I realise that this strikes at the very heart of Cocoon and would mean a
lot of work. But it seems to me such an obvious place for improvement
that I wondered if anything was planned.
Thanks for your feedback!
--
Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer (IT)-Coach
{Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
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Re: re-design of sitemaps
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 14:10 +0200, Reinhard Poetz wrote: Stephen Winnall wrote: Has anyone given any thought to a re-design of Cocoon's sitemaps in one of the new versions of Cocoon? I can see scope for improvement in the following areas... Cocoon is tough enough to grok now without changing things that function well enough. Making changes to modularize blocks simplifies things. The changes you suggest offer no improvement from a user perspective (at least, not for THIS user). The main improvement Cocoon needs is better documentation, not yet another poorly documented change that users will have to struggle with. Yes, the sitemap is (as it says in the comments and the documentation) the heart of Cocoon. Leave it alone. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re-design of sitemaps
Thanks for the reply: On 6 Jun 2007, at 14:10, Reinhard Poetz wrote: Stephen Winnall wrote: Has anyone given any thought to a re-design of Cocoon's sitemaps in one of the new versions of Cocoon? I can see scope for improvement in the following areas: 1) modularisation Cocoon 2.2 uses the servlet-service framework. See http:// cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/cdocs/g2/g2/g1/1291.html That looks interesting, in particular the use of Maven. I find no mention of OSGI in this context, however. Is this no longer a course being pursued in the Cocoon project? 3) definition of a sitemap schema http://cocoon.apache.org/schema/sitemap/cocoon-sitemap-1.0.xsd 4) requirement that sitemaps validate against that schema (would make it easier to write sitemap tools) validation is off by default but can be activated, again only in Cocoon 2.2 Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that it was impossible to write a complete XML schema for the current version of the sitemap. I thought all attempts hitherto were only approximations. One of the major problems is that any extensions a user writes (actions, transformations, etc.) might introduce new elements and attributes into the sitemap which the schema cannot know about a priori. I was looking for a solution where any valid sitemap could be validated against the schema, which seems to me to imply a change in the structure of sitemaps. Would it be right to say that the intention of this XML schema is only to support a simple subset of all possible current Cocoon sitemaps? Can one then provide the missing functionality by writing one's own blocks using the servlet-service framework? Steve - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re-design of sitemaps
On 6 Jun 2007, at 17:27, J.D. Williams wrote: On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 14:10 +0200, Reinhard Poetz wrote: Stephen Winnall wrote: Has anyone given any thought to a re-design of Cocoon's sitemaps in one of the new versions of Cocoon? I can see scope for improvement in the following areas... Cocoon is tough enough to grok now without changing things that function well enough. Making changes to modularize blocks simplifies things. The changes you suggest offer no improvement from a user perspective (at least, not for THIS user). The main improvement Cocoon needs is better documentation, not yet another poorly documented change that users will have to struggle with. I understand that sentiment, but it would make sitemaps easier for me if I could validate them in my XML editor. And I suspect that we might have more user-friendly tools for Cocoon to make it easier to grok, if the sitemap could be easily marshalled and unmarshalled (i.e. were based on a schema). Steve - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: re-design of sitemaps
3) definition of a sitemap schema http://cocoon.apache.org/schema/sitemap/cocoon-sitemap-1.0.xsd 4) requirement that sitemaps validate against that schema (would make it easier to write sitemap tools) validation is off by default but can be activated, again only in Cocoon 2.2 Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that it was impossible to write a complete XML schema for the current version of the sitemap. I thought all attempts hitherto were only approximations. One of the major problems is that any extensions a user writes (actions, transformations, etc.) might introduce new elements and attributes into the sitemap which the schema cannot know about a priori. I was looking for a solution where any valid sitemap could be validated against the schema, which seems to me to imply a change in the structure of sitemaps. Would it be right to say that the intention of this XML schema is only to support a simple subset of all possible current Cocoon sitemaps? Can one then provide the missing functionality by writing one's own blocks using the servlet-service framework? Have you tried validating your own sitemaps to this XSD yet? It contains constructs that allow entry of unknown elements.. Kind regards, Geert Drs. G.P.H. Josten Consultant Daidalos BV Source of Innovation Hoekeindsehof 1-4 2665 JZ Bleiswijk Tel.: +31 (0) 10 850 1200 Fax: +31 (0) 10 850 1199 www.daidalos.nl KvK 27164984 De informatie - verzonden in of met dit emailbericht - is afkomstig van Daidalos BV en is uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Indien u dit bericht onbedoeld hebt ontvangen, verzoeken wij u het te verwijderen. Aan dit bericht kunnen geen rechten worden ontleend. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re-design of sitemaps
Geert Josten wrote:
Would it be right to say that the intention of this XML
schema is only to support a simple subset of all possible
current Cocoon sitemaps? Can one then provide the missing
functionality by writing one's own blocks using the
servlet-service framework?
Have you tried validating your own sitemaps to this XSD yet? It contains
constructs that allow entry of unknown elements..
exactly
--
Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer (IT)-Coach
{Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
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Re: re-design of sitemaps
On 6 Jun 2007, at 18:49, Geert Josten wrote: 3) definition of a sitemap schema http://cocoon.apache.org/schema/sitemap/cocoon-sitemap-1.0.xsd rvlet-service framework? Have you tried validating your own sitemaps to this XSD yet? It contains constructs that allow entry of unknown elements.. I tried a couple of sitemaps before I posted the original comment. One of them was based on the sitemap delivered with Cocoon 2.1.9. Both threw up errors (mainly unknown attributes). I am aware that schemas can be written using the any element for undefined or unknown content, but that seems a bit of a cop-out to me. I don't know what the official adjective is for the class of XML documents for which a complete and correct XML schema can be written: let's use x-able as a place-holder. To the best of my knowledge, the Cocoon sitemap is not x-able, and I think that inhibits the development of useful tools for making Cocoon easier to use. (Perhaps the SunBow or Lepido people could comment on that?) Steve - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
