Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[Stephan Bergmann]

On 02/12/2016 05:58 PM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:

Le 12/02/2016 17:27, V Stuart Foote a écrit :


So, at the moment, sorry but you DO need the Java Runtime environment as
provided from a JDK.  Otherwise, I would say simply don't use Base and don't
select a Java runtime--but not sure if on the OS X builds you get the
option. When I get a moment I'll actually check.



No, unfortunately, you don't get the choice irrespective of whether or
not you use Base. There are hooks in at least the Writer module that
require Java instantiation, and possibly also a bundled extension which
requires a Java environment to be detected (NLPSolver) for Calc.


There are no hooks in the Writer module that require Java per se.  There 
are hooks in various places that extensions written in Java could tap into.


AFAICS, the only bundled extension coming with stock LO 5.1 for Mac that 
is written in Java is the NLPSolver, but it should not require Java to 
be available during start of LO, only when trying to use that feature.


But one can have (non-bundled) extensions installed from previous 
versions of LO that require Java, even so that they require Java 
directly at (first) start of LO 5.1.


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 12/02/2016 13:36, Stephan Bergmann a écrit :

> 
> The fix for 
> "FILEOPEN: LibO terminates when loading Oracle's Java on OS X 10.10 and
> 10.11," replacing the need to install Apple's Java 6 in addition to an
> Oracle JRE or JDK with the requirement to install an Oracle JDK, not a
> JRE.  I'm not sure we did ourselves a favour with that change...
> 

That's the one.

Most people rarely download a JDK when a JRE is largely sufficient for
almost everything they might need to launch a Java application,
especially as the JRE updates can be configured to be automatic, whereas
the JDK can not. A user must be aware by looking up for themselves that
there is a newer version of the JDK available (this doens't even happen
on Windows to my knowledge). The change made in that bug report means
that users have to choose between either foregoing Java functionality in
LibreOffice and receiving annoying nag messages that no Java is
installed, or else download and install a larger JDK (in comparison to
just the JRE) that they then have to manually update from time to time.



Alex


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[Stephan Bergmann]

On 02/11/2016 04:16 PM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:

Le 10/02/2016 23:46, Larry Gusaas a écrit :

As I said in my original post, i reinstalled LibreOffice 5.0.4. Java is
recognized in the Preference settings. There is a bug in LO 5.1 which
prevents LibreOffice finding Java.


 From what I recall, it was a deliberate code change in the way that the
Java path is detected, but obviously not tested enough.


The fix for  
"FILEOPEN: LibO terminates when loading Oracle's Java on OS X 10.10 and 
10.11," replacing the need to install Apple's Java 6 in addition to an 
Oracle JRE or JDK with the requirement to install an Oracle JDK, not a 
JRE.  I'm not sure we did ourselves a favour with that change...


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 12/02/2016 17:27, V Stuart Foote a écrit :

> So, at the moment, sorry but you DO need the Java Runtime environment as
> provided from a JDK.  Otherwise, I would say simply don't use Base and don't
> select a Java runtime--but not sure if on the OS X builds you get the
> option. When I get a moment I'll actually check.
> 

No, unfortunately, you don't get the choice irrespective of whether or
not you use Base. There are hooks in at least the Writer module that
require Java instantiation, and possibly also a bundled extension which
requires a Java environment to be detected (NLPSolver) for Calc.

Bundled extensions can not be removed easily  by the casual user.


Alex



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[libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2016-02-12, 9:38 AM V Stuart Foote wrote:

Rob wrote

The goal of the JRE is, as the name Java Runtime Environment says, that it
should be sufficient to run Java functionality.

That is Oracle's take.  In reality



In all discussions I miss why LO needs more then the runtime
environment...
We should work to bring LO in the boundary of of the JRE.

No, Oracle  must fix the JRE, or Apple must correct OS X Java system calls.
Until then, LO for tdf#94716 now requires use of the unaffected JDK -- at
the expense of OS X users now having to install the JDK rather than a broken
JRE to access the Java runtimes.


Wrong. You need to make LibreOffice work with OS X.  It worked before. Demanding Apple makes a 
change in there operating system in order for your program to  work is pretty arrogant. I do 
not need or want JDK on my system.



--
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Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - 
Edgard Varese


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[V Stuart Foote]

Rob wrote
> The goal of the JRE is, as the name Java Runtime Environment says, that it
> should be sufficient to run Java functionality.

That is Oracle's take.  In reality 


> In all discussions I miss why LO needs more then the runtime
> environment...
> We should work to bring LO in the boundary of of the JRE.

No, Oracle  must fix the JRE, or Apple must correct OS X Java system calls. 
Until then, LO for tdf#94716 now requires use of the unaffected JDK -- at
the expense of OS X users now having to install the JDK rather than a broken
JRE to access the Java runtimes.

See Oracle's notes:
http://bugs.java.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=7131356

The LibreOffice details are in  tdf#74877
and  
tdf#94716   

LibreOffice has no skin in the game beyond running the Java based HSQLDB 
for Base internal database--and when we fully move to FireBird very little
requirement for Java going forward.  Java runtime -- from a JRE or JDK
becomes irrelevant to the project.




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[libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[V Stuart Foote]

Larry Gusaas wrote
>> No, Oracle  must fix the JRE, or Apple must correct OS X Java system
>> calls.
>> Until then, LO for tdf#94716 now requires use of the unaffected JDK -- at
>> the expense of OS X users now having to install the JDK rather than a
>> broken
>> JRE to access the Java runtimes.
> 
> Wrong. You need to make LibreOffice work with OS X.  It worked before. 

I don't need to do anything,  but you are welcome to hack at the code ;-)


> Demanding Apple makes a  change in there operating system in order for
> your program to  work is pretty arrogant. I do not need or want JDK on my
> system.

Arrogant?  No, just reality of Oracle and Apples relationship and a lack of
effort on the part of Apple!

Until Oracle and Apple can not sort this out--external projects like
LibreOffice have no choice and we've now implemented a reasonable work
around (provided by folks responsible for NeoOffice). 

So, at the moment, sorry but you DO need the Java Runtime environment as
provided from a JDK.  Otherwise, I would say simply don't use Base and don't
select a Java runtime--but not sure if on the OS X builds you get the
option. When I get a moment I'll actually check.

Stuart




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[libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2016-02-12, 10:27 AM V Stuart Foote wrote:

Larry Gusaas wrote

No, Oracle  must fix the JRE, or Apple must correct OS X Java system
calls.
Until then, LO for tdf#94716 now requires use of the unaffected JDK -- at
the expense of OS X users now having to install the JDK rather than a
broken
JRE to access the Java runtimes.

Wrong. You need to make LibreOffice work with OS X.  It worked before.

I don't need to do anything,

You meaning LibreOffice needs to


but you are welcome to hack at the code ;-)

Typical arrogant hacker's response.


Demanding Apple makes a  change in there operating system in order for
your program to  work is pretty arrogant. I do not need or want JDK on my
system.

Arrogant?  No, just reality of Oracle and Apples relationship and a lack of
effort on the part of Apple!
Apple does not have to make changes to their OS to meet demands of third party programs. 
Programmers have to write their code to work with the OS. Demanding otherwise is arrogant.



Until Oracle and Apple can not sort this out--external projects like
LibreOffice have no choice and we've now implemented a reasonable work
around (provided by folks responsible for NeoOffice).
It is not reasonable to demand the use of JDK instead of JRE. I have no need for JDK. Also it 
does not check for updates automatically, which can lead to security problems.



So, at the moment, sorry but you DO need the Java Runtime environment as
provided from a JDK.
And earlier versions of LibreOffice worked. The "Bug fix" broke LibreOffice for Macs. Thanks a 
lot. I appreciate your great work to "improve" LibreOffice.


--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - 
Edgard Varese



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[libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 10/02/2016 20:10, Larry Gusaas a écrit :

Hi Larry,

> LibreOffice 5.1.0 doesn't find the installed Java on my Mac (MacBook Pro
> Retina, OS X version 10.11.3). Had to reinstall LibreOffice 5.0.4.
> 


Which JRE are you using ?


The workaround is to install a corresponding full latest JDK instead of
just a JRE. This is a pain because the automatic Java update mechanism
available via the OSX Preferences panel only updates the JRE...leaving
the two out of sync.

I currently have JDK SE 1.8.0_72 SDK which is recognized by LO51. I am
about to upgrade the SE JDK to 1.8.0_74.



Alex


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 10/02/2016 23:46, Larry Gusaas a écrit :
> 




> As I said in my original post, i reinstalled LibreOffice 5.0.4. Java is
> recognized in the Preference settings. There is a bug in LO 5.1 which
> prevents LibreOffice finding Java.
> 
> 


From what I recall, it was a deliberate code change in the way that the
Java path is detected, but obviously not tested enough.

Alex


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2016-02-11, 9:14 AM Alexander Thurgood wrote:

Le 10/02/2016 20:10, Larry Gusaas a écrit :

Hi Larry,


LibreOffice 5.1.0 doesn't find the installed Java on my Mac (MacBook Pro
Retina, OS X version 10.11.3). Had to reinstall LibreOffice 5.0.4.


Which JRE are you using ?


1.8.0_73


The workaround is to install a corresponding full latest JDK instead of
just a JRE. This is a pain because the automatic Java update mechanism
available via the OSX Preferences panel only updates the JRE...leaving
the two out of sync.

I currently have JDK SE 1.8.0_72 SDK which is recognized by LO51. I am
about to upgrade the SE JDK to 1.8.0_74.


I have no need for the JDK. I'll just keep a copy of LibreOffice 5.0.4 installed so I can 
access the one database I use.


Thanks,
Larry

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Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - 
Edgard Varese




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[libreoffice-users] Re: Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2016-02-10, 3:48 PM libreoffice-ml.mbou...@spamgourmet.com wrote:

Italo Vignoli wrote:

On 10/02/16 20:10, Larry Gusaas wrote:

LibreOffice 5.1.0 doesn't find the installed Java on my Mac (MacBook Pro
Retina, OS X version 10.11.3). Had to reinstall LibreOffice 5.0.4.


Funny, I have been using LibreOffice 5.1 since Beta 1 on two different
MacBooks without any issue. Only if I use a wizard LibreOffice asks for
Java, otherwise the program runs fine (no Java installed on one Mac). I
will look if anyone has filed a bug.


Some of the functions in Database don't work without Java

I think you need to install 32-bit or 64-bit Java as appropriate to match LibreOffice. You 
can install both on a 64-bit system, so that both 32-bit and 64-bit applications can use Java.


Not applicable to Macs

Wasn't there something a while back about LibreOffice on Mac not recognising Java 8 unless 
Java 7 was also installed, or something like that? I don't know if that's still the case; I 
don't have a Mac so haven't followed it closely. From what I recall I think it was a bug in 
Java, not something LibreOffice could do anything about.


Macs require Java 6 installed in order to recognize newer version. That is not the issue since 
I have it installed.


As I said in my original post, i reinstalled LibreOffice 5.0.4. Java is recognized in the 
Preference settings. There is a bug in LO 5.1 which prevents LibreOffice finding Java.



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Larry I. Gusaas
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Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - 
Edgard Varese



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