Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-10 Thread Preston Smith 

Amen Dennis!

I do the same as you. I look at the most recent post in the thread - if 
top posted I make a call if I want to read any of the thread - if bottom 
posted I have to hit Ctl - end to get to the bottom of the message or 
scroll through way too many reply brackets to get to the bottom


I subscribe to the each his own theory - one size does not fit all

Those who ramble on about whether top or bottom posting should be the 
norm and criticize those who do not comply with their desires are 
probably the same people who criticize developers who set options to 
defaults that do not comply with their way of thinking.


Onward!  Ever upward! To the top!!!

Preston

On 9/8/2011 6:05 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:


-Original Message-
From: planas [mailto:jsloz...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 19:33
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List 
Guidelines Page?

Hi

On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 21:29 -0400, Don Myers wrote:


Reply below:

On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

I realiz(s)e that the existing:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
which includes this bit:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3


2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?

Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.

Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
article, if the context is not obvious.

And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)

Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
delete these parts.

So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
achieve by such simple means?


and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
desired guideline.

Samples of similar on other lists:

http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html

Top-posting vs bottom-posting.

  Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.


http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists

Proper quoting:

Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:



  Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
...


and even:
http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html

Replying
When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.


Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
transition/ann

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Andrew Douglas Pitonyak 

On 09/09/2011 06:51 PM, David B Teague sr wrote:

On 9/8/2011 9:00 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
- HTML formatted texts too 


I hear that a lot. You should get a mail program that can be set to 
ignore HTML. Thunderbird can be set to ignore HTML. I'm sure there are 
others.


TB, if set to ignore HTML used to give you a blank screen (and a 
warning?) when messages with only HTML, no text, arrived. I don't know 
what the latest TB incarnation does.
You must be very careful with that setting. Better if you can set that 
based on other filter criteria as well; for example, do not allow HTML 
from that mailing list, but, allow it from your boss, mother, and girl 
friend.


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread David B Teague sr 

On 9/8/2011 9:00 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
- HTML formatted texts too 


I hear that a lot. You should get a mail program that can be set to 
ignore HTML. Thunderbird can be set to ignore HTML. I'm sure there are 
others.


TB, if set to ignore HTML used to give you a blank screen (and a 
warning?) when messages with only HTML, no text, arrived. I don't know 
what the latest TB incarnation does.


David Teague
-- nil significat nisi oscillat
do wop, do wop, do wop.


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Andrew Douglas Pitonyak 

On 09/08/2011 10:42 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:

On 09/08/2011 04:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with 
rather than try

to alienate new users surely?


I dont agree with you.


There are many nuances as to why sometimes top posting is a better 
choice, but, because this is really a personal preference that I 
frequently see turn into a mean-spirited flame war, I won't bother to 
enumerate them here and now.


Are you aware of any email software that can be configured to easily 
deal with bottom posting (ie, when you hit reply, it places the cursor 
at the bottom of the message rather than the top, and, while reading the 
email, it skips the repeated top content and places the view screen 
beginning at the first new content)?


I always figured that I should top AND bottom post. You decide if that 
is so that everyone will be happy, or no one will be happy :-)


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker 

On 08/09/2011 02:29, Don Myers wrote:
I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the 
US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work 
e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the 
bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why 
Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird 
came out. It was backwards!! So I have always changed the default 
on every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different 
customs in different countries.



Work emails are a bit different to technical mailing lists.
In a technical mailing list like this there may be an original question 
followed by several replies followed by more questions etc etc and if 
you top post as default then A) the thread of the discussion gets 
completely messed up and b) do you read a book from the bottom up?


e.g.
A: Because the thread gets out of sequence

Q: Why top post?



--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Nuno J. Silva 

On 2011-09-08, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> You'll also notice that my reply doesn't have an additional set of
> brackets, so in-line commenting makes it very difficult to know what
> is new comment and what is from the previous message.

>From Dennis' message headers:
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0

Yeah, that's a problem with Outlook, it wants to force top-posting and
screw attribution so hard that it becomes harder to understand who wrote
what.

Even if Outlook users plan to use top-posting, Outlook-QuoteFix is still
a good way to get rid of some problems with quoting and attribution
lines, including the broken reindentation.

http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/

(Disclaimer: I didn't try this. My system is not even able to run
Outlook, let alone having it installed.)


> PS: It is often handy to see the answer first.  I can quickly
> determine whether or not I care what the question is.

Forty-two.

>  And if I know
> what the general run of a thread has been, I don't need to see the
> rest of the message except to check for blankety-blank inline but
> unannounced comments.

Well, I don't think anything without a preceding attribution mark is
"unannounced", at least before the first line with "-- "...

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/09/2011 12:05 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

It is often handy to see the answer first.  I can quickly determine whether or 
not I care what the question is.


Right now, I trimmed and bottom posted: You can quickly see my answer.
I could have just removed all you text, if you nedded to read it, you 
load the precedent message. That's all about.


--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

RE: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton 


-Original Message-
From: planas [mailto:jsloz...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 19:33
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List 
Guidelines Page?

Hi

On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 21:29 -0400, Don Myers wrote: 

> Reply below:
> 
> On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:
> > For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> > consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.
> >
> > I realiz(s)e that the existing:
> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
> > doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
> > posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
> > http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
> > which includes this bit:
> > http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
> >
> > 
> > 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
> >
> > Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
> > and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
> > people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
> > qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
> > they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
> > text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
> > not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.
> >
> > Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
> > since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
> > idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
> > referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
> > In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
> > people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
> > article, if the context is not obvious.
> >
> > And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
> > the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)
> >
> > Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
> > quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
> > in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
> > you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
> > to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
> > delete these parts.
> >
> > So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
> > time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
> > achieve by such simple means?
> > 
> >
> > and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
> > desired guideline.
> >
> > Samples of similar on other lists:
> >
> > http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
> > 
> > Top-posting vs bottom-posting.
> >
> >  Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
> > the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
> > about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
> > forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
> > trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
> > equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
> > your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
> > The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
> > 
> >
> > http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
> > 
> > Proper quoting:
> >
> > Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
> > easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:
> >
> > 
> >
> >  Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
> > ...
> > 
> >
> > and even:
> > http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
> > 
> > Replying
> > When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
> > response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
> > question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
> > talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
> > possible to get your point across. Take the time to be

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 08:45:26AM -0400, webmaster for Kracked Press 
Productions wrote:
> 
> For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff
> is a pain.

That only happens when people are too clueless or too lazy to trim their
replies.
...snip of material that should never have been quoted...

-- 
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch, 
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Tanstaafl 

On 2011-09-08 11:32 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby  wrote:

On 09/08/2011 05:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Really? Personal insults? Here??


If polite explanations are not enough, why not...


Rotflmao! Someone gets it...

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 05:20 PM, Chris Morgan wrote:

People are lazy - get used to it.


I do.
But get used o me always reminding then.


In most cases top-posting is preferable


No.

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 05:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Really?  Personal insults?  Here??


If polite explanations are not enough, why not...

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Nuno J. Silva 
On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote:

> Outside of
> LibreOffice and OpenSource everyone else uses top-post almost
> exclusively.

Last time I went to USENET, people were still actively bottom-posting
(interleaved). At least excluding Google Groups posts, which I
filter. (Google Groups is the cultural heir of America Online)

>  Smart phones make it difficult to post any other way. 

Some regular email and news cliends do, too. There are and will always
be broken clients.

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Nuno J. Silva 
On 2011-09-08, Tanstaafl wrote:

> On 2011-09-07 9:29 PM, Don Myers  wrote:
>> I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a
>> lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply
>> to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top.
>
> That is *only* because Microsoft decided to make blindly top-posting
> (and quoting the *entire* previous *email*, rather than encouraging
> users to actually *think* about what they are replying to and respond
> intelligently).

It all started spreading even faster when the bussiness world started
using e-mail tools that weren't designed for e-mail or that were made
after September 1993.

Then some people started adopting that behavior, because they probably
thought "if they're using it this way, that's how I should use it".

And nowadays it's not just help centers and bussinesses, it's other
people too.

If you do office work (like Tom), or interact with bussiness people a
lot, then you'll probably see lots of people top-posting.


>> I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the
>> bottom when Thunderbird came out.
>
> Now you know.

Because Thunderbird has cultural inheritance that dates from August 1993
or earlier.


>> It was backwards!!
>
> No, it is correct - it is only 'backwards' for those weaned on
> Outlook.

Hmm, I've been reading books by increasing order of page number. I guess
I've been doing it backwards all my life.


-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Nuno J. Silva 
On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote:

>> On 09/08/2011 04:29 AM, Don Myers wrote:
>>> I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a
>>> lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to
>>> me at the bottom.
>>
>> Because people you talk with read bottum-up.
>> And it's not a country custom, just a matter of education and logic.
>>
>> -- RMA.
>>
>> -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
>> Problems? 
>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be 
>> deleted

Tom, even if you top post, please trim your messages. I doubt the
mailing list signature with the unsubscribe instructions classifies as
"context".

(signature quoted, as it should be when the current message happens to
discuss a previous signature)

> Often you already know roughly what is going on and only need to read the 
> latest 
> post.

I don't think that's a good point, it works both ways, either you "just
scroll" down to read the latest post, or you "just scroll" down to read
the context.

>  Sometimes people might need quick easy access to previous comments and a 
> quick scroll downwards can help them gain context if they can't quite 
> remember 
> some detail.  

But what happens if people top-post ten consecutive messages, and then
someone tries to get some context? 

We hope all these posters have trimmed their citations and that they
used clients that don't mess the citations, but it's still somehow
painful, because it's not a matter of reading bottom-up, it's a matter
of reading top-down several sentences in bottom-up order.

A bottle of water and either acetylsalicylic acid or paracetamol are
advised.

> This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than 
> try 
> to alienate new users surely?

The problem is that in this case personal choices affects the way other
people use the list.

I guess we want to keep disruption at a minimum, so please, no matter
what kind of posting you want to use, trim citations and adjust all
citations so that they follow your style.

I mean, if you're top-posting, make sure what you're quoting is ordered
that way. IMHO it's less confusing.

>  It's a little unwelcoming to say that all new 
> users are lazy slobs and even worse to hide answers away where they wont find 
> them imo.

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 04:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than try
to alienate new users surely?


I dont agree with you.

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 04:11 PM, Chris Morgan wrote:

I can see some of the advantages of bottom-posting, but it does mean a
lot more scrolling
to get to the meat of the message.


Again, what the problem with trimming the message, just as I did?
Please tell.

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 04:11 PM, Chris Morgan wrote:

Professional emails are almost always top posted,
which is easier to read in the preview window of email readers.


What???

https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/8/30/120
Linux kernel Mailing list would be a "non professional"?
Given all the big companies employees contributing?



--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Nuno J. Silva 
On 2011-09-08, Tanstaafl wrote:

> What the heck was that???
>
> (top-posted because there is no way to make sense of the quoted text)

I... guess it was some serious Thunderbird misconfiguration? Or maybe
it's written in Quenya...

(replied exactly below the question it's supposed to address, just like
interleaved style should be used) 

> On 2011-09-07 9:53 PM, Keith Bates  wrote:
>> On 08/09/11 11:29, Don Myers wrote:Reply
>>   below:On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:For those that continue to 
>> insist on top
>> posting on the LO lists: pleaseconsider bottom posting with 
>> interspersed replies.Hi All,I will respect your wishes about posting at the 
>> bottom. I live in
>>   the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of
>>   work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me
>>   at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood
>>   why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when
>>   Thunderbird came out. It was backwards!! So I have always
>>   changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe
>>   there are different customs in different countries.DonIt's not a point 
>> about national customs. It's about the way we read
>> mailing lists.If you are in a one-to-one conversation then you will know 
>> the
>> context of the conversation and more importantly you will remember
>> what you said to that person last time.In that case top posting
>> works often,although you may still have to re-quote parts of the
>> previous conversation to make it clear what is being talked about or
>> the points you are responding to.In a mailing list where there are 
>> multiple conversations frommultiple people all happening simultaneously, it 
>> is a lot easier for
>> all concerned if replies are interspersed in the body of the
>> previous email or at the bottom so that new readers can pick up the
>> context of the conversation. Also for people who come across the
>> archived version looking to solve a problem several months later, it
>> is much easier if you can follow the logical flow by scrolling down
>> through the various discussions.We've had this discussion multiple times 
>> on this and previously on
>> the OO list.I'm with NoOp on this but I know that there are people who 
>> insist on
>> their right to top post.-- 

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Chris Morgan 


You only have to scroll if the person who is replying *blindly* quotes 
the *entire* *message*, rather than - as *all* top/inline posting 
advocates suggest - trimming the quoted text to only what is relevant 
to provide context to your reply.


You and Tom Davies simply ignore that - so what does that make you? 
Disingenuous (aka liar)? A moron (someone who cannot wrap their brain 
around a simple truth) Both?




As I replied to another message - we live in the real world - not some 
idealised

world where everyone is rational. People are lazy - get used to it.
And there is no need to insult everyone.

In most cases top-posting is preferable. However, in this 'list' 
environment, bottom-posting
and selective quoting works better for retaining context. However, we 
cannot enforce this
without alienating the very people this list is aimed at (ie everyone), 
so we will

just have to live with a few inconsistencies and inconveniences.

cheers,

Chris

Incoming and outgoing emails are checked for viruses
by Sophos AntiVirus.

This email may contain confidential information which is
intended for the named recipient(s) only. Â If you are
not the named recipient you should not take any action in
relation to this email, other than to notify us that you
have received it in error.

Lynx Information Systems Ltd
93-99 Upper Richmond Rd
London SW15 2TG
United Kingdom
Web: http://www.lynxinfo.co.uk
Email: l...@lynxinfo.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)20 8780 2634
Fax: +44 (0)20 8780 0931

Registered in England Number 2454130
VAT Number GB 561 8979 88


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Tom Davies 
Hi :)
Really?  Personal insults?  Here??

Over the past few months there has been a steadily increasing amount of 
top-posting.  It is not just one or 2 people.  Outside of LibreOffice and 
OpenSource everyone else uses top-post almost exclusively.  Smart phones make 
it difficult to post any other way.  

Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Thu, 8/9/11, Tanstaafl  wrote:

From: Tanstaafl 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List 
Guidelines Page?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 14:44

On 2011-09-08 9:11 AM, Chris Morgan  wrote:
> I can see some of the advantages of bottom-posting, but it does mean
> a lot more scrolling to get to the meat of the message.

I get so tired of this totally lame and purposefully ignorant excuse.

You only have to scroll if the person who is replying *blindly* quotes the 
*entire* *message*, rather than - as *all* top/inline posting advocates suggest 
- trimming the quoted text to only what is relevant to provide context to your 
reply.

You and Tom Davies simply ignore that - so what does that make you? 
Disingenuous (aka liar)? A moron (someone who cannot wrap their brain around a 
simple truth) Both?

-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Tanstaafl 

On 2011-09-08 9:11 AM, Chris Morgan  wrote:

I can see some of the advantages of bottom-posting, but it does mean
a lot more scrolling to get to the meat of the message.


I get so tired of this totally lame and purposefully ignorant excuse.

You only have to scroll if the person who is replying *blindly* quotes 
the *entire* *message*, rather than - as *all* top/inline posting 
advocates suggest - trimming the quoted text to only what is relevant to 
provide context to your reply.


You and Tom Davies simply ignore that - so what does that make you? 
Disingenuous (aka liar)? A moron (someone who cannot wrap their brain 
around a simple truth) Both?


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Tom Davies 
Hi :)
Often you already know roughly what is going on and only need to read the 
latest 
post.  Sometimes people might need quick easy access to previous comments and a 
quick scroll downwards can help them gain context if they can't quite remember 
some detail.  


This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than 
try 
to alienate new users surely?  It's a little unwelcoming to say that all new 
users are lazy slobs and even worse to hide answers away where they wont find 
them imo.
Regards from
Tom :)




From: Mihamina Rakotomandimby 
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Thu, 8 September, 2011 14:03:13
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List 
Guidelines Page?

On 09/08/2011 04:29 AM, Don Myers wrote:
> I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a
> lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to
> me at the bottom.

Because people you talk with read bottum-up.
And it's not a country custom, just a matter of education and logic.

-- RMA.

-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Don C. Myers 



On 09/08/2011 07:44 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:


Nothing to do with countries - only to do with laziness vs spending a
few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses.


Thank you!!
--

*~~*
Don C. Myers
e-PRO Certified by the National Association of Realtors
Manager, Farm and Rural Property Division
*Coldwell Banker University Realty
*126 East Foster Avenue, State College, PA 16801
Office Phone: 814-237-6543 Fax: 814-237-6502
Home Phone: 814-422-8111 Cell Phone: 814-571-9518
Visit the Farm and Rural Property Division Web Site at 
_www.cbur-ruralproperty.com 

_View Don's Farm Web Site at www.myersfarm.com 
*~~*


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Chris Morgan 

I'm with you Don, - see below -

On 08/09/2011 02:29, Don Myers wrote:

Reply below:

On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

I realiz(s)e that the existing:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
which includes this bit:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3


2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?

Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.

Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
article, if the context is not obvious.

And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)

Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
delete these parts.

So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
achieve by such simple means?


and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
desired guideline.

Samples of similar on other lists:

http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html

Top-posting vs bottom-posting.

 Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.


http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists

Proper quoting:

Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:



 Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
...


and even:
http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html

Replying
When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.


Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
worth mentioning anyway.

Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
posting guidelines on the
  page with complete
posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO 
lists.


Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss
list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued
discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list
as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most.




Hi All,

I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the 
US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work 
e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the 
bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why 
Thunderbird had the default t

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 03:45 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote:

For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is
a pain.


Because your correspondants did not trim the message, as I just did for 
yours: I just select the line I want to answer and click on "reply".

It keeps (quotes) just the selected line.

Your MUA does not? Use a clever one.

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 03:13 PM, Tom Davies wrote:


Top posting is fine.


Bottom posting is fine.


Almost everyone top-posts except some people in a few
OpenSource mailing lists.  If you need to communicate with anyone that works in
an office then you probably have to top-post otherwise they will probably just
ignore your email and delete it without reading it.


What about trimming (summarize) the message you answer to?
I personnally bottom reply to my top-poster boss.
I'm waiting to snip him if he dares telling anything about that pratctice.

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 02:44 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

laziness vs spending a
few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses.


That's the point: people are lazy and dont wan to mess with trimming and 
formatting their answer. But they want the recipient to read carefully 
what they wrote.


Crazy.

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 06:37 AM, toki wrote:

Intermixed posting was the US standard. That changed when:
* AOL allowed its members on the Internet;
* Microsoft released its email client that made intermixed posting
virtually impossible for non-techies.


Agreed.

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 04:29 AM, Don Myers wrote:

I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a
lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to
me at the bottom.


Because people you talk with read bottum-up.
And it's not a country custom, just a matter of education and logic.

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby 

On 09/08/2011 03:02 AM, NoOp wrote:

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.


I second that request.
- top posting is painfull
- HTML formatted texts too

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread webmaster for Kracked Press Productions 


For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is 
a pain.

But if you want to top post, or bottom post, to each his own.


On 09/08/2011 08:13 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Top posting is fine.  Almost everyone top-posts except some people in a few
OpenSource mailing lists.  If you need to communicate with anyone that works in
an office then you probably have to top-post otherwise they will probably just
ignore your email and delete it without reading it.


A few old-timers here might have to accept that we are here to help open things
up for people not  to bully, restrict and make unnecessary demands.

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Tanstaafl
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Thu, 8 September, 2011 12:44:58
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List
Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-07 9:29 PM, Don Myers  wrote:

I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom.

It isn't about 'posting at the bottom' - it is about trimming your post
to only quote the relevant portion of the text you are responding to,
and placing each response (if you are responding to more than one point)
after each relevant quoted portion of text - just like this one is done...


I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a
lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply
to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top.

That is *only* because Microsoft decided to make blindly top-posting
(and quoting the *entire* previous *email*, rather than encouraging
users to actually *think* about what they are replying to and respond
intelligently).


I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the
bottom when Thunderbird came out.

Now you know.


It was backwards!!

No, it is correct - it is only 'backwards' for those weaned on Outlook.


So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed
it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries.

Nothing to do with countries - only to do with laziness vs spending a
few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses.




--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Cor Nouws 

Hi gary,

NoOp wrote (08-09-11 02:02)

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.


I think it is useful to have some clear examples (pictures from mails/ 
threads) that simply show how good mailing practices can be useful.
Of course, if you are constantly on the mail, giving all your attention 
to what goes on there, you can maybe follow the topics in the blind. 
Then it may not all be that relevant.
But for people that cannot read the posts all the time, clear quoting 
and replying below the relevant part, is helpful.
Still not something we want to try to force people to use IMO. But 
something to show as good possibility.


Cheers,

--
 - Cor
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Tom Davies 
Hi :)
Top posting is fine.  Almost everyone top-posts except some people in a few 
OpenSource mailing lists.  If you need to communicate with anyone that works in 
an office then you probably have to top-post otherwise they will probably just 
ignore your email and delete it without reading it.  


A few old-timers here might have to accept that we are here to help open things 
up for people not  to bully, restrict and make unnecessary demands.  

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Tanstaafl 
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Thu, 8 September, 2011 12:44:58
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List 
Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-07 9:29 PM, Don Myers  wrote:
> I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom.

It isn't about 'posting at the bottom' - it is about trimming your post
to only quote the relevant portion of the text you are responding to,
and placing each response (if you are responding to more than one point)
after each relevant quoted portion of text - just like this one is done...

> I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a
> lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply
> to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top.

That is *only* because Microsoft decided to make blindly top-posting
(and quoting the *entire* previous *email*, rather than encouraging
users to actually *think* about what they are replying to and respond
intelligently).

> I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the
> bottom when Thunderbird came out.

Now you know.

> It was backwards!!

No, it is correct - it is only 'backwards' for those weaned on Outlook.

> So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed
> it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries.

Nothing to do with countries - only to do with laziness vs spending a
few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses.

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Tanstaafl 
What the heck was that???

(top-posted because there is no way to make sense of the quoted text)

On 2011-09-07 9:53 PM, Keith Bates  wrote:
> On 08/09/11 11:29, Don Myers wrote:Reply
>   below:On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:For those that continue to 
> insist on top
> posting on the LO lists: pleaseconsider bottom posting with 
> interspersed replies.Hi All,I will respect your wishes about posting at the 
> bottom. I live in
>   the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of
>   work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me
>   at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood
>   why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when
>   Thunderbird came out. It was backwards!! So I have always
>   changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe
>   there are different customs in different countries.DonIt's not a point 
> about national customs. It's about the way we read
> mailing lists.If you are in a one-to-one conversation then you will know 
> the
> context of the conversation and more importantly you will remember
> what you said to that person last time.In that case top posting
> works often,although you may still have to re-quote parts of the
> previous conversation to make it clear what is being talked about or
> the points you are responding to.In a mailing list where there are 
> multiple conversations frommultiple people all happening simultaneously, it 
> is a lot easier for
> all concerned if replies are interspersed in the body of the
> previous email or at the bottom so that new readers can pick up the
> context of the conversation. Also for people who come across the
> archived version looking to solve a problem several months later, it
> is much easier if you can follow the logical flow by scrolling down
> through the various discussions.We've had this discussion multiple times 
> on this and previously on
> the OO list.I'm with NoOp on this but I know that there are people who 
> insist on
> their right to top post.-- 
> God bless you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keith Bates
> 
> 
> 4 Mooloobar St
> Narrabri 2390
> 
> 
> Ask Jesus into your life
> He is The Way, The Truth and The Life


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Tanstaafl 
On 2011-09-07 9:29 PM, Don Myers  wrote:
> I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom.

It isn't about 'posting at the bottom' - it is about trimming your post
to only quote the relevant portion of the text you are responding to,
and placing each response (if you are responding to more than one point)
after each relevant quoted portion of text - just like this one is done...

> I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a
> lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply
> to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top.

That is *only* because Microsoft decided to make blindly top-posting
(and quoting the *entire* previous *email*, rather than encouraging
users to actually *think* about what they are replying to and respond
intelligently).

> I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the
> bottom when Thunderbird came out.

Now you know.

> It was backwards!!

No, it is correct - it is only 'backwards' for those weaned on Outlook.

> So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed
> it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries.

Nothing to do with countries - only to do with laziness vs spending a
few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses.

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-07 Thread toki 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 09/08/2011 01:29 AM, Don Myers wrote:

>The reply is always at the top.

When I top post, I am 100% guaranteed that the recipient will be utterly
clueless about what I am referring to, and what action, if any, I will
be taking.

> every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in 
> different countries.

Intermixed posting was the US standard. That changed when:
* AOL allowed its members on the Internet;
* Microsoft released its email client that made intermixed posting
virtually impossible for non-techies.

jonathon
- -- 
If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting.

If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth
requesting.

  DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOaDh+AAoJEIda1rvbz/7L5vcH/Rwhg3NXSzZdAbyYYrqq0MWi
FOVGBJu32jOEEnuTSm0amCan4uM6Dh1WwczLL3ZGGfVpozboForMpBTWfuwtmMcf
iwFGg5GpoFHbCxyFx6HwrHI8i8oWH9jINIhb+E4+Qx/jbZDJzz97MSTcjWaDLtdp
93RYsCFFP5Dhub1AweXWwxJNgLcckQYEIv6W/c8zWEeUqOIylF83Kfh3AHQxJUjP
UbMId1AtQr8LqKr5313U/Wup3YybXWDOeZstGB6zC2+YFc4VBN31EajoVJZi3HVq
tNzv1hbR9qBCzGGVbDFXbAylFagvByxJ6SNVHr2wDww9hZM+kGf0bUdGrMOsSsw=
=QFwj
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-07 Thread Don Myers 



On 09/07/2011 10:33 PM, planas wrote:

Hi

On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 21:29 -0400, Don Myers wrote:


Reply below:

On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

I realiz(s)e that the existing:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
which includes this bit:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3


2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?

Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.

Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
article, if the context is not obvious.

And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)

Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
delete these parts.

So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
achieve by such simple means?


and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
desired guideline.

Samples of similar on other lists:

http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html

Top-posting vs bottom-posting.

  Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.


http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists

Proper quoting:

Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:



  Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
...


and even:
http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html

Replying
When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.


Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
worth mentioning anyway.

Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
posting guidelines on the
   page with complete
posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.

Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss
list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued
discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list
as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most.




Hi All,

I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the
US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work
e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the
bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why
Thund

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-07 Thread planas 
Hi

On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 21:29 -0400, Don Myers wrote: 

> Reply below:
> 
> On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:
> > For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> > consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.
> >
> > I realiz(s)e that the existing:
> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
> > doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
> > posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
> > http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
> > which includes this bit:
> > http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
> >
> > 
> > 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
> >
> > Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
> > and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
> > people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
> > qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
> > they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
> > text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
> > not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.
> >
> > Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
> > since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
> > idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
> > referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
> > In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
> > people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
> > article, if the context is not obvious.
> >
> > And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
> > the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)
> >
> > Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
> > quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
> > in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
> > you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
> > to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
> > delete these parts.
> >
> > So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
> > time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
> > achieve by such simple means?
> > 
> >
> > and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
> > desired guideline.
> >
> > Samples of similar on other lists:
> >
> > http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
> > 
> > Top-posting vs bottom-posting.
> >
> >  Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
> > the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
> > about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
> > forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
> > trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
> > equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
> > your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
> > The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
> > 
> >
> > http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
> > 
> > Proper quoting:
> >
> > Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
> > easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:
> >
> > 
> >
> >  Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
> > ...
> > 
> >
> > and even:
> > http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
> > 
> > Replying
> > When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
> > response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
> > question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
> > talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
> > possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
> > remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.
> > 
> >
> > Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
> > transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
> > worth mentioning anyway.
> >
> > Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
> > posting guidelines on the
> >   page with complete
> > posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
> > at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.
> >
> > Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss
> > list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued
> > discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-07 Thread Keith Bates 
On 08/09/11 11:29, Don Myers wrote:Reply
  below:On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:For those that continue to 
insist on top
posting on the LO lists: pleaseconsider bottom posting with 
interspersed replies.Hi All,I will respect your wishes about posting at the 
bottom. I live in
  the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of
  work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me
  at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood
  why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when
  Thunderbird came out. It was backwards!! So I have always
  changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe
  there are different customs in different countries.DonIt's not a point 
about national customs. It's about the way we read
mailing lists.If you are in a one-to-one conversation then you will know the
context of the conversation and more importantly you will remember
what you said to that person last time.In that case top posting
works often,although you may still have to re-quote parts of the
previous conversation to make it clear what is being talked about or
the points you are responding to.In a mailing list where there are multiple 
conversations frommultiple people all happening simultaneously, it is a lot 
easier for
all concerned if replies are interspersed in the body of the
previous email or at the bottom so that new readers can pick up the
context of the conversation. Also for people who come across the
archived version looking to solve a problem several months later, it
is much easier if you can follow the logical flow by scrolling down
through the various discussions.We've had this discussion multiple times on 
this and previously on
the OO list.I'm with NoOp on this but I know that there are people who 
insist on
their right to top post.-- 
God bless you




Keith Bates


4 Mooloobar St
Narrabri 2390


Ask Jesus into your life
He is The Way, The Truth and The Life
-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-07 Thread Don Myers 

Reply below:

On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

I realiz(s)e that the existing:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
which includes this bit:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3


2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?

Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.

Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
article, if the context is not obvious.

And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)

Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
delete these parts.

So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
achieve by such simple means?


and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
desired guideline.

Samples of similar on other lists:

http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html

Top-posting vs bottom-posting.

 Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.


http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists

Proper quoting:

Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:



 Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
...


and even:
http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html

Replying
When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.


Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
worth mentioning anyway.

Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
posting guidelines on the
  page with complete
posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.

Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss
list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued
discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list
as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most.




Hi All,

I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the 
US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work 
e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the 
bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why 
Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came 
out. It was backwards!! S

[libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-07 Thread NoOp 
For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

I realiz(s)e that the existing:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
which includes this bit:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3


2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?

Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.

Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
article, if the context is not obvious.

And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)

Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
delete these parts.

So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
achieve by such simple means?


and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
desired guideline.

Samples of similar on other lists:

http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html

Top-posting vs bottom-posting.

Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.


http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists

Proper quoting:

Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:



Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
...


and even:
http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html

Replying
When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.


Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
worth mentioning anyway.

Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
posting guidelines on the
 page with complete
posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.

Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss
list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued
discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list
as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most.



-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted