Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
Hi :) +1 Everyone should (imo) be entitled to their view. Can we agree to disagree peacefully? Perhaps we might be able to resolve some of the issues in future threads once we are able to cool off a bit and then later look at what really are the issues. Regards from Tom :) > > From: MR >To: Larry Gusaas >Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org >Sent: Saturday, 24 November 2012, 17:40 >Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries >are now online > >On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: >> On 2012-11-24 12:04 AM MR wrote: >>> >>> Can you take this personal argument off the list, please? >> >> It is not a personal argument. It is a matter of principal >> >The way you are presenting this and attacking the author and the work >is not a matter of principle. You may delude yourself into thinking >it is, but your tone and words are extremely personal. > >>> You are wrong about what constitutes plagiarism, and this is now >>> completely off topic. >> >> Taking someone's work without giving attribution for it is plagiarism. >> Period >> >Not at all. From Bouvier's Law Dictionary (1816): > >PLAGIARISM. The act of appropriating the ideas and language of another, and > passing them for one's own. > 2. When this amounts to piracy the party who has been guilty of it will > be enjoined, when the original author has a copyright. Vide Copyright; > Piracy; Quotation; Pard. Dr. Com. n. 169. > >Compiling a list of words does not in any way, shape or form >constitute plagiarism. > >Period. > >> That is the minor point about this miserable excuse of a spell checker. >> >This is not a matter of principle, it is your opinion, strongly worded >and quite offensive. > >If you cannot tell the difference between a reasonable discussion and >a personal attack, perhaps you should find another place to rant. > >Even if you have reasonable points, which I believe you do, your >presentation is offensive. > >>> Thank you. >> >> You're not welcome. >> >With that attitude, I suspect you are becoming less so here than you might >like. > >Back up, take a breath, and use rational, persuasive language instead >of insults. You will do much better. > >MR > >-- >For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org >Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > > > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
On 11/24/2012 02:41 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2012-11-24 1:14 AM Jay Lozier wrote: On 11/24/2012 01:23 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: It is not a personal argument. It is a matter of principal What principal? Principle. Stupid typo. Taking someone's work without giving attribution for it is plagiarism. Period I think you do not what plagiary is. I know what plagiarism is. No you do not! You are confusing citation with plagiary. It was always stated that the lists were compiled from a variety of unnamed sources. The original work is the location and compilation from these lists. The issue is not whether the lists are credited but what is the actual claim. that determines plagiary. Try using that argument in an university essay or an academic paper. Except this is not an academic setting nor are the lists being published in an academic journal. Scholarly citation is used to show what the previous work has covered, to point possible weaknesses in methodology, gaps of knowledge, etc. so that other researchers can review the cited work and its relevance to the current research. Plagiary is not the lack of citations but claiming the work of others as one's own. I can cite as much as I want and still commit plagiary - they are two separate and to large extent independent issues. In an academic setting both are critical but in a none academic setting citing prior work is often not a critical issue but plagiary is a major issue in either sphere. Most word lists I've looked at, including the LibreOffice spellcheckers, are copyrighted. An usual condition for the reuse of them is that attribution be given. I have no idea what the copyright status of the original works are and neither do you. Also, many people use Creative Commons (copyleft) to release works and the attribution requirements are determined by the author(s), some may not require attribution. That is the minor point about this miserable excuse of a spell checker. The main point is that this word list is complete pile of shite and worthless as a Canadian English spell checker. I pity anyone who actually uses it and ends up using it. They will end up with a lot of misspelled words. The issue is what do the sources say having lived in the Toronto suburbs (Buffalo, NY) my observation was there were many American spellings used in informal documents. Official documents tended to follow more closely UK spellings than US. No. The issue is what is the correct standard spelling for Canadian English. Some words follow the UK spellings, others the US spellings. And there are uniquely Canadian words. If some bloody wanker want to waste his time compiling a worthless compilation of words let him. However, to pretend it is a usable spell checker for Canadian English is reprehensible. Any promotion of it as such should be expunged from all LibreOffice web pages, and it should be denounced on all lists and forums -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: > On 2012-11-24 12:04 AM MR wrote: >> >> Can you take this personal argument off the list, please? > > It is not a personal argument. It is a matter of principal > The way you are presenting this and attacking the author and the work is not a matter of principle. You may delude yourself into thinking it is, but your tone and words are extremely personal. >> You are wrong about what constitutes plagiarism, and this is now >> completely off topic. > > Taking someone's work without giving attribution for it is plagiarism. > Period > Not at all. From Bouvier's Law Dictionary (1816): PLAGIARISM. The act of appropriating the ideas and language of another, and passing them for one's own. 2. When this amounts to piracy the party who has been guilty of it will be enjoined, when the original author has a copyright. Vide Copyright; Piracy; Quotation; Pard. Dr. Com. n. 169. Compiling a list of words does not in any way, shape or form constitute plagiarism. Period. > That is the minor point about this miserable excuse of a spell checker. > This is not a matter of principle, it is your opinion, strongly worded and quite offensive. If you cannot tell the difference between a reasonable discussion and a personal attack, perhaps you should find another place to rant. Even if you have reasonable points, which I believe you do, your presentation is offensive. >> Thank you. > > You're not welcome. > With that attitude, I suspect you are becoming less so here than you might like. Back up, take a breath, and use rational, persuasive language instead of insults. You will do much better. MR -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
Hi :) Some very harsh criticism. It's not difficult to get involved to help fix the minor issues so that everyone benefits from your skills and knowledge. Obviously, personal attacks in public are much easier but could be seen as a bit cowardly and bullying. Also this should be a family-friendly friendly place where people of all ages can comfortably ask questions and get involved so please can we tone-down the swearing a bit? The difficult bit is doing the major amount of work in the first place and creating something that many people find incredibly helpful. Regards from Tom :) > > From: Larry Gusaas >To: users@global.libreoffice.org >Sent: Saturday, 24 November 2012, 6:23 >Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are >now online > >On 2012-11-24 12:04 AM MR wrote: >> Can you take this personal argument off the list, please? > > > > > >You're not welcome. > >-- _ > >Larry I. Gusaas >Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada >Website: http://larry-gusaas.com >"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." >- Edgard Varese > > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
On 11/24/2012 01:23 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2012-11-24 12:04 AM MR wrote: Can you take this personal argument off the list, please? It is not a personal argument. It is a matter of principal What principal? You are wrong about what constitutes plagiarism, and this is now completely off topic. Taking someone's work without giving attribution for it is plagiarism. Period I think you do not what plagiary is. It was always stated that the lists were compiled from a variety of unnamed sources. The original work is the location and compilation from these lists. The issue is not whether the lists are credited but what is the actual claim. that determines plagiary. That is the minor point about this miserable excuse of a spell checker. The main point is that this word list is complete pile of shite and worthless as a Canadian English spell checker. I pity anyone who actually uses it and ends up using it. They will end up with a lot of misspelled words. The issue is what do the sources say having lived in the Toronto suburbs (Buffalo, NY) my observation was there were many American spellings used in informal documents. Official documents tended to follow more closely UK spellings than US. If some bloody wanker want to waste his time compiling a worthless compilation of words let him. However, to pretend it is a usable spell checker for Canadian English is reprehensible. Any promotion of it as such should be expunged from all LibreOffice web pages, and it should be denounced on all lists and forums Thank you. You're not welcome. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
Can you take this personal argument off the list, please? You are wrong about what constitutes plagiarism, and this is now completely off topic. Thank you. On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: > On 2012-11-23 5:20 PM webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote: >> >> Now please do not call someone "guilty of plagiarism" unless you have >> proof of that act and not just opinions. > > > You have admitted taking word lists from multiple sources without giving > attribution to the sources. That is plagiarism. > > Your compilation of Canadian English words is useless as a spellchecker. > Having both the standard Canadian English and US English variants of the > spelling of a word show as correct is ridiculous and makes your lists > useless. > > As you said you are not a linguist. You ignorance of the proper compilation > of a useful spell checker is obvious. > > > -- > _ > > Larry I. Gusaas > Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada > Website: http://larry-gusaas.com > "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind > theirs." - Edgard Varese > > > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
On 24/11/2012 at 00:01, Larry Gusaas wrote: > Every book, essay, article, etc. written is just words. Copyrighted are not words per se, but very specific order of these that creates unique work. And, going further, ideas submitted in these words. Or ideas in general, since they can be expressed through painting, music, performance and other means. > Any dictionaries I > have looked at are copyrighted, included the ones that are distributed in > LibreOffice. Still - this is unique work that is copyrighted, not language. Unless there are certain mistakes copied, you can't really prove that dictionary was "plagiarized". Take few dictionaries from different publishing houses. There will be large parts that are exactly the same. Can one publishing house sue other for "plagiarism"? None will dare. After all, they both "plagiarized" large parts of some older dictionaries. In printed dictionaries, there is also typographical layout that is copyrighted. But this is not language. Copyrighting words just does not make sense. And since words can not be copyrighted, they can not be plagiarized. It's unique work that can be plagiarized, but in regards of dictionaries proving that something isn't unique work is almost impossible. After all, this is just a list of words that people already use (does "prior art" ring a bell here?). And please don't confuse copyright with trademark. Common words may be part of trademark. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
You cannot "own" a copyright on words or your language. You copyright the order they are used in a document. The published definition type of dictionaries copyright the text of their definitions, and not the words themselves. You copyright "War and Peace" but not the words used in that very large book. The authors of the books would be very put out if they have to get permission to use English words if a publisher of a definition dictionary could own the words in their books. - You want one source, try looking at the published lists of words that many Linux distros state are part of American, British, Canadian versions of English. How about their French lists, or Spanish lists. I looked and found where they are published and they are there for all to see and use under open source. You want another, try googling for free word lists for the various English languages. There are places out there, or were out there, since the Internet/WWW has been more than a Educational play thing. Also, over the years I have collected many sets of words. When I started was with a dictionary project from my college days for a 177,000 spelling word dictionary. Then have you ever data-mined the words used in published articles and other documents? Ever looked into an Unabridged dictionary that weighs 10-15 pounds of paper? How do you want me to declare all of these sources? By words found where or by the year I found them? How about I look for who had the authority to include it in that version of the English language [that would very hard to find]? Well, I do not have a list since I have been doing this word collecting for well over 20 years and with many different computers. Many times I have lost files and had to rebuild them. Since I have had my 3 strokes, I have been looking into ways to find more and more places that have correctly spelled words in their documents. Now, you call me "guilty of plagiarism". I take published documents and data-mine what words are being used. I do my best to find sources that are linguistically correct. "Purists" for "standards" have created the following versions of the French language: Classique-Reforme--1990 Classique Moderne Reforme I did not make up those names, but they came from the people who created the French dictionaries for LO and AOO. I think that if a person writes in French and uses a spelling of a word that is part of their written history, that those words and their spellings are valid. When I see a document published in Canada, I assume that they are words used in Canadian English. If the document is published in the UK, then those words are British English. If the document is published in the USA, then that document uses words in American English. Now we are not a isolated societies anymore. The English language has added words from French, Spanish, and German sources. Actually words are being added to the language from peoples and cultural sources all over the world. We who speak the English in the USA have started to include words and their spellings that the British have been using for years. Since Canada was founded by British and French speaking people, they get much of their English words from Britain. Now, since Canada and the USA share a border, words and their spellings cross that border in both direction. As I said, I am not a linguist. I rely on other who are publishing documents in their own versions of English to be the proper authority. If I believe that those groups, organizations, or publications have the authority, then I will use the words in the documents produced by them. By-the-way, there are rarely one group that can be called the sole authority for a subject, but one of the many groups that share it. Also, these different groups can state different opinions about the same topic. They do not always agree. Just look at all of the different publishers of Unabridged dictionaries published in the USA. They all include a different "total" set of words, with some words not included by others even though they all claim to be unabridged versions of the English language. I would like to add to my word lists, the spelling words of most of the English language terms used in Science, Mathematics, Technology, and other things that are taught to our youth from the time they are 5 years old through their college and university education. I will look for those documents that are in English that are part of the written knowledge and try to find words that are not currently included in my current dictionaries. --- SO if you do not think my work is correct, you have the choice not to use it. Find other dictionaries. Actually, the English language dictionary that is included in LO may actually include en_AU, en_CA, en_GB, en_US, and en_ZA. With the 64-bit Debian install of LibreOffice, there are over 10 locali
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
On 23/11/2012 at 22:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> Since you do not give credit to your sources you are guilty of plagiarism.
I believe that you really can't plagiarize language. These are just words.
They are common good (or "public domain", if you prefer more strict term).
But yes, not giving credit for sources seems not fair.
On the other hand, Tim ("webmaster") said that his sources are easily findable,
so maybe he does, after all, give credits?
--
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski
--
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
For now the 3 new versions of my dictionaries will be only found on the NA-DVD dictionary page. http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.6-installs/dictionary.html#english In a few days or a week or so from now, I will go and wade through the process to upload the new versions to the http://extensions.libreoffice.org/extension-center/american-british-canadian-spelling-hyphen-thesaurus-dictionaries page. Right now, that page shows a warning that my extensions may not be still supported. Well I am still supporting them as well as I can. The three dictionaries are created from lists of words that are separated into American English, British English, and Canadian English. The dictionaries have their versions of English, en_US, en_GB, and en_CA. A poster has stated that there may be problems with the Canadian dictionary. Something about some specific word spellings that they do not think is "pure" Canadian words, but American word spellings. For my part, I did not choose the words in each of the set of word lists. What I can say is that the words for the Canadian dictionary has come from sources that state that the words are Canadian words. The British and American words are from word lists that come from lists stating that these are British words and American words. I am not a authority in what is the differences between each of the versions of the English language. So, I look to other groups and organizations that know much more about these things than I do. If someone does not like the spelling words I use, please take my dictionaries and edit out the words they thing that are not words that are not "pure" English for their version of the language. So, I do not have answers on what is or is not "pure" and "proper" words for American/en_US, British/en_GB, and Canadian/en_CA, English. I rely on these more authoritative groups and agencies. If individual people have a degree in linguistics, then I will pass along their problems with specific words in questions. I will change my word lists based on their updated lists. NO, I will not give out my resources or places where I get my word lists. Everyone can find my sources, if they look for them. They seem to have new ones every year or two, or so I have seen. On 11/23/2012 03:08 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Thanks :D I think you meant Tim@KrackedPress. Tim's the one that really deserves the praise and +1 from me too :) Nicely done Tim! :) Regards from Tom :) From: Marc Paré To: users@global.libreoffice.org Cc: market...@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Friday, 23 November 2012, 19:33 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online FYI, I think Tom has also indicated that these are also available on the extensions site. Tom: Thanks for this as well as the work you do on the EN DVD. Awesome! Cheers, Marc Le 2012-11-23 11:56, webmaster-Kracked_P_P a écrit : I just finished uploading the new dictionaries and edited the new NA-DVD 3.6 dictionary page. http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.6-installs/dictionary.html#english en_CA - Canadian English - 674,277 words kpp-canadian-english-dictionary-674277-word-list.oxt [added 35,164 words] en_GB - British English - 674,039 words kpp-british-english-dictionary-674039-word-list.oxt [added 34,923words] en_US - American English - 797,865 words kpp-american-english-dictionary-797865-words-list.oxt [added 24,458 words] -- All of the dictionaries I have created are shown here http://www.libreoffice-na.us/KPP-dictionaries/dictionary.html --- Still have to wade through the Extensions site's system to upload them there, but that is for another day. -- Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com http://www.parEntreprise.com parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF) parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are now online
Hi :) Thanks :D I think you meant Tim@KrackedPress. Tim's the one that really deserves the praise and +1 from me too :) Nicely done Tim! :) Regards from Tom :) > > From: Marc Paré >To: users@global.libreoffice.org >Cc: market...@global.libreoffice.org >Sent: Friday, 23 November 2012, 19:33 >Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3 new "very large" English dictionaries are >now online > >FYI, I think Tom has also indicated that these are also available on the >extensions site. > >Tom: Thanks for this as well as the work you do on the EN DVD. Awesome! > >Cheers, > >Marc > >Le 2012-11-23 11:56, webmaster-Kracked_P_P a écrit : >> >> I just finished uploading the new dictionaries and edited the new NA-DVD >> 3.6 dictionary page. >> http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.6-installs/dictionary.html#english >> >> en_CA - Canadian English - 674,277 words >> kpp-canadian-english-dictionary-674277-word-list.oxt >> [added 35,164 words] >> >> en_GB - British English - 674,039 words >> kpp-british-english-dictionary-674039-word-list.oxt >> [added 34,923words] >> >> en_US - American English - 797,865 words >> kpp-american-english-dictionary-797865-words-list.oxt >> [added 24,458 words] >> >> -- >> >> All of the dictionaries I have created are shown here >> http://www.libreoffice-na.us/KPP-dictionaries/dictionary.html >> >> --- >> >> Still have to wade through the Extensions site's system to upload them >> there, but that is for another day. >> > > >-- >Marc Paré >m...@marcpare.com >http://www.parEntreprise.com >parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF) >parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org > > >-- >For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org >Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > > > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
