Re: [users@httpd] SNI SSL per domain?

[Felipe Gasper]

> On 7 Sep 2016, at 9:43 PM, Marat Khalili  wrote:
> 
> Did you consider having two instances of Apache: one for handling SSL with 
> vhost per certificate, and one for actual web sites with vhost per site? 
> First one will proxy requests to the second. Some people do it this way for 
> performance reasons, but it lets you be more flexible with certificates too.
> 

I never considered this, but I would think the memory consumption of two Apache 
instances would be undesirable. Worth investigating, though. HAProxy may also 
work toward this end.

> > All the same, would it not make sense to decouple the SNI logic from the 
> > vhosts? Just thinking at a conceptual level, there seems no particular 
> > reason why these entities are combined in the configuration.
> 
> Except for the fact that in 99.999% of use cases SNI determines vhost and 
> non-canonical domains are just redirects.
> 

What do you mean by “non-canonical domain”?

Do you mean something in the ServerAlias? That seems more an implementation 
detail of Apache’s particular configuration format; both conceptually and in 
practice all domains that point to a vhost are coequal in status, right?

> OTOH, since every certificate contains domain names it is valid for, why 
> cannot Apache pick certificate from a list or directory automatically before 
> even considering virtualhosts? Isn't certificate-domain relationship in 
> Apache configuration redundant (in most cases) and error-prone?

^^^ Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!! :)

This is how we’ve set up our own SNI-capable daemons: they load the cert chain 
and key from files named for the relevant domain. The service knows where the 
certs and key are as a function of the domain name; there’s no configuration 
besides filesystem setup. It works beautifully and requires no restart of the 
server to add/remove/update certificates.

-FG



> -- 
> 
> With Best Regards,
> Marat Khalili
> 
> On September 8, 2016 3:03:35 AM GMT+03:00, Felipe Gasper 
>  wrote:
> Reviving this thread …
> 
> This would mean that every vhost will needs its own common.conf file, which, 
> on a server with thousands of vhosts, will make for expensive loads of the 
> configuration file.
> 
> mod_macro in 2.4 is another route we may explore, but we have some really 
> complex vhost templating logic that would be difficult to port.
> 
> All the same, would it not make sense to decouple the SNI logic from the 
> vhosts? Just thinking at a conceptual level, there seems no particular reason 
> why these entities are combined in the configuration.
> 
> Are there plugin controls that would facilitate control of the SSL 
> certificate sent to the browser? Or would a change like this really need to 
> be in Apache itself?
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> -FG
> 
>  On 3 Feb 2016, at 5:54 AM, Stefan Eissing  
> wrote:
>  
>  common.conf:
>  
>...
>  ...
>  ---
>  
>  
>   ServerName foo.tld
>  
>   SSLCertificateFile foo.pem
>  
>   Include common.con
>  
>  
>   ServerName bar.tld
>  
>   SSLCertificateFile bar.pem
>  
>   Include common.con
>  
>  
>  
>  Am 03.02.2016 um 11:45 schrieb Felipe Gasper :
>  
>  What if I have a vhost with:
>  
>  ServerName foo.tld
>  ServerAlias bar.tld
>  
>  … but I have two separate SSL certificates for these domains? Is there any 
> way to accommodate this without either splitting the domains onto separate 
> vhosts or buying a new certificate that covers both domains?
>  
>  -FG
>  
>  On 3 Feb 2016 12:26 AM, William A Rowe Jr wrote:
>  Sounds like you have mis-structured the config.  Per servername - each
>  can and should have its own cert and will be selected via SNI.  If there
>  are subadmins beneath each vhost section #include those snippets and
>  they all still fall within the given host name.
>  
>  On Feb 1, 2016 11:21 AM, "Felipe Gasper"   > wrote:
>  
>On 1 Feb 2016 12:16 PM, Oscar Knorn wrote:
>  
>On 2016/02/01 Felipe Gasper wrote:
>  
>Hello,
>  
>  Is it possible to do SNI SSL per domain rather than
>per vhost? If
>not, is there a feature request in for this?
>  
>  Thank you!
>  
>-Felipe Gasper
>Houston, TX
>  
> 
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@httpd.apache.org
>
>For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@httpd.apache.org
>
>  
>  
>  
>Hello Felipe,
>  
>are'nt in your configuration the domains organized in vhost sections
>yet? Do you think, there might be a reason you can't organize
>them that way?
>  
>Cheers Oscar
>  
>  
>Hi Oscar,
>  
>Thanks for responding!
>  
>We have end users customizing their own vhost 

Re: [users@httpd] SNI SSL per domain?

[Marat Khalili]

Did you consider having two instances of Apache: one for handling SSL with 
vhost per certificate, and one for actual web sites with vhost per site? First 
one will proxy requests to the second. Some people do it this way for 
performance reasons, but it lets you be more flexible with certificates too.

> All the same, would it not make sense to decouple the SNI logic from the 
> vhosts? Just thinking at a conceptual level, there seems no particular reason 
> why these entities are combined in the configuration.

Except for the fact that in 99.999% of use cases SNI determines vhost and 
non-canonical domains are just redirects.

OTOH, since every certificate contains domain names it is valid for, why cannot 
Apache pick certificate from a list or directory automatically before even 
considering virtualhosts? Isn't certificate-domain relationship in Apache 
configuration redundant (in most cases) and error-prone?
-- 

With Best Regards,
Marat Khalili

On September 8, 2016 3:03:35 AM GMT+03:00, Felipe Gasper 
 wrote:
>Reviving this thread …
>
>This would mean that every vhost will needs its own common.conf file,
>which, on a server with thousands of vhosts, will make for expensive
>loads of the configuration file.
>
>mod_macro in 2.4 is another route we may explore, but we have some
>really complex vhost templating logic that would be difficult to port.
>
>All the same, would it not make sense to decouple the SNI logic from
>the vhosts? Just thinking at a conceptual level, there seems no
>particular reason why these entities are combined in the configuration.
>
>Are there plugin controls that would facilitate control of the SSL
>certificate sent to the browser? Or would a change like this really
>need to be in Apache itself?
>
>Thank you!
>
>-FG
>
>> On 3 Feb 2016, at 5:54 AM, Stefan Eissing
> wrote:
>> 
>> common.conf:
>> 
>> > ...
>> ...
>> ---
>> 
>> 
>>  ServerName foo.tld
>> 
>>  SSLCertificateFile foo.pem
>> 
>>  Include common.con
>> 
>> 
>>  ServerName bar.tld
>> 
>>  SSLCertificateFile bar.pem
>> 
>>  Include common.con
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 03.02.2016 um 11:45 schrieb Felipe Gasper
>:
>>> 
>>> What if I have a vhost with:
>>> 
>>> ServerName foo.tld
>>> ServerAlias bar.tld
>>> 
>>> … but I have two separate SSL certificates for these domains? Is
>there any way to accommodate this without either splitting the domains
>onto separate vhosts or buying a new certificate that covers both
>domains?
>>> 
>>> -FG
>>> 
>>> On 3 Feb 2016 12:26 AM, William A Rowe Jr wrote:
 Sounds like you have mis-structured the config.  Per servername -
>each
 can and should have its own cert and will be selected via SNI.  If
>there
 are subadmins beneath each vhost section #include those snippets
>and
 they all still fall within the given host name.
 
 On Feb 1, 2016 11:21 AM, "Felipe Gasper" > wrote:
 
   On 1 Feb 2016 12:16 PM, Oscar Knorn wrote:
 
   On 2016/02/01 Felipe Gasper wrote:
 
   Hello,
 
 Is it possible to do SNI SSL per domain rather than
   per vhost? If
   not, is there a feature request in for this?
 
 Thank you!
 
   -Felipe Gasper
   Houston, TX
 
  
>-
   To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>users-unsubscr...@httpd.apache.org
   
   For additional commands, e-mail:
>users-h...@httpd.apache.org
   
 
 
 
   Hello Felipe,
 
   are'nt in your configuration the domains organized in vhost
>sections
   yet? Do you think, there might be a reason you can't organize
   them that way?
 
   Cheers Oscar
 
 
   Hi Oscar,
 
   Thanks for responding!
 
   We have end users customizing their own vhost configurations via
>a
   limited-access interface; hence, I can’t put one domain per
>vhost.
 
   -F
 
  
>-
   To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@httpd.apache.org
   
   For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@httpd.apache.org
   
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>
>-
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@httpd.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@httpd.apache.org
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@httpd.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: [users@httpd] SNI SSL per domain?

[Felipe Gasper]

Reviving this thread …

This would mean that every vhost will needs its own common.conf file, which, on 
a server with thousands of vhosts, will make for expensive loads of the 
configuration file.

mod_macro in 2.4 is another route we may explore, but we have some really 
complex vhost templating logic that would be difficult to port.

All the same, would it not make sense to decouple the SNI logic from the 
vhosts? Just thinking at a conceptual level, there seems no particular reason 
why these entities are combined in the configuration.

Are there plugin controls that would facilitate control of the SSL certificate 
sent to the browser? Or would a change like this really need to be in Apache 
itself?

Thank you!

-FG

> On 3 Feb 2016, at 5:54 AM, Stefan Eissing  
> wrote:
> 
> common.conf:
> 
>  ...
> ...
> ---
> 
> 
>  ServerName foo.tld
> 
>  SSLCertificateFile foo.pem
> 
>  Include common.con
> 
> 
>  ServerName bar.tld
> 
>  SSLCertificateFile bar.pem
> 
>  Include common.con
> 
> 
> 
>> Am 03.02.2016 um 11:45 schrieb Felipe Gasper :
>> 
>> What if I have a vhost with:
>> 
>> ServerName foo.tld
>> ServerAlias bar.tld
>> 
>> … but I have two separate SSL certificates for these domains? Is there any 
>> way to accommodate this without either splitting the domains onto separate 
>> vhosts or buying a new certificate that covers both domains?
>> 
>> -FG
>> 
>> On 3 Feb 2016 12:26 AM, William A Rowe Jr wrote:
>>> Sounds like you have mis-structured the config.  Per servername - each
>>> can and should have its own cert and will be selected via SNI.  If there
>>> are subadmins beneath each vhost section #include those snippets and
>>> they all still fall within the given host name.
>>> 
>>> On Feb 1, 2016 11:21 AM, "Felipe Gasper" >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>>   On 1 Feb 2016 12:16 PM, Oscar Knorn wrote:
>>> 
>>>   On 2016/02/01 Felipe Gasper wrote:
>>> 
>>>   Hello,
>>> 
>>> Is it possible to do SNI SSL per domain rather than
>>>   per vhost? If
>>>   not, is there a feature request in for this?
>>> 
>>> Thank you!
>>> 
>>>   -Felipe Gasper
>>>   Houston, TX
>>> 
>>>   
>>> -
>>>   To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@httpd.apache.org
>>>   
>>>   For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@httpd.apache.org
>>>   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   Hello Felipe,
>>> 
>>>   are'nt in your configuration the domains organized in vhost sections
>>>   yet? Do you think, there might be a reason you can't organize
>>>   them that way?
>>> 
>>>   Cheers Oscar
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   Hi Oscar,
>>> 
>>>   Thanks for responding!
>>> 
>>>   We have end users customizing their own vhost configurations via a
>>>   limited-access interface; hence, I can’t put one domain per vhost.
>>> 
>>>   -F
>>> 
>>>   -
>>>   To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@httpd.apache.org
>>>   
>>>   For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@httpd.apache.org
>>>   
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@httpd.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@httpd.apache.org
>> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@httpd.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@httpd.apache.org
> 


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@httpd.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@httpd.apache.org