Re: System transit time, Latency -

[Ed Greshko]

On 04/08/2012 01:27 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 04/07/2012 08:33 PM, jdow wrote:
>>>
>>
>> "mtr cnn.com" is actually much quicker to get to the last hop so you
>> know the IP addresses involved.
>
> I was under the impression that he was trying to find the latency of the 
> satellite
> link and traceroute would give him the IP of the first router.  And, judging 
> by his
> response, he probably was.
>
> BTW, I used to use traceroute (Or, more accurately, the Windows version, 
> tracert.)
> daily when I did senior level tech support for an ISP to find out where the 
> latency
> on various sites was coming from.  It can be a surprisingly useful tool, 
> within its
> limits.

And in some cases you have to resort to using tcptraceroute.


-- 
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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/07/2012 08:33 PM, jdow wrote:




"mtr cnn.com" is actually much quicker to get to the last hop so you
know the IP addresses involved.


I was under the impression that he was trying to find the latency of the 
satellite link and traceroute would give him the IP of the first router. 
 And, judging by his response, he probably was.


BTW, I used to use traceroute (Or, more accurately, the Windows version, 
tracert.) daily when I did senior level tech support for an ISP to find 
out where the latency on various sites was coming from.  It can be a 
surprisingly useful tool, within its limits.

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 22:20 +0100, Sam Sharpe wrote:
> On 7 April 2012 19:21, Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> > On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 17:07 +0100, Sam Sharpe wrote:
> >> Fernando has the
> >> same on his Gmail I would guess, so he didn't hit "Reply to All" - he
> >> has no such option.
> >
> > Actually Gmail has both Reply and Reply to All. What it doesn't have is
> > Reply to List. That's one reason I access my lists via Evolution, even
> > though my account is on Gmail.
> 
> Where precisely does it have those options?
> 
> Here are the options I have to reply to your email:
> 
> http://i40.tinypic.com/2vtqdk5.jpg
> 
> -- 
> Sam

http://tinypic.com/r/34sqz5s/5

Note that this only appears when the original message has more than one
recipient.

There's also a Google Labs option to make Replay All the default.

poc

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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[jdow]

On 2012/04/07 16:43, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:

On 04/07/2012 07:06 PM, Sam Sharpe wrote:

On 7 April 2012 23:41, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA
 wrote:


Putting that address into mtr system2 produces the same complaint.

[bobg@box7 ~]$ mtr system2 --address 10.73.255.21

Failed to resolve host: Name or service not known

Do you have a host called system2 on your network? That looks like mtr
can't look up the name "system2" which would be as expected if it
doesn't exist.

I would expect you to just do "mtr cnn.com".



Yes, you are correct sir, I misunderstood the command, mtr
cnn.com, etc. does work perfectly and again I am seeing the
system delay of a bit more than 600 ms.



I'd be a little surprised if it was materially less than 600ms for a
double satellite hop to Clarke orbit and back. You are going four hops,
at least. The speed of light delay is 88,000 miles/186000 mps is just
about half a second. Then you have satellite processing delay (it's not
a so called bent pipe) and you have your modem delays. Finally you do
have some finite time for the actual packet transit at each post on the
path. It'll be small, but measurable.

When I was testing data mode on the Magnavox (now gone) MX3000 satcom
modem I made a crazy link - Torrance Ca to Goonhilly ground station to
Cambridge Mass looped from there back to Torrance via a TCP connection
all at 2400bps. (That's as fast as Inmarsat-M provided for at that time.)
By the time I got done looping it around latency had gotten to around 2.5
seconds. The fool link still worked using TCP over the SatCom link. The
Inmarsat people wanted me to test this. They were not sure it'd work and
I had accounts to make the test. It was an expensive and perversely
amusing hack.)

{^_^}

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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[jdow]

On 2012/04/07 15:41, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:


I think traceroute probably tells me what I wanted to know, The
system delay is > 600 ms.

[bobg@box7 ~]$ traceroute cnn.com
traceroute to cnn.com (157.166.226.26), 30 hops max, 60 byte
packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 1.551 ms 1.497 ms 1.452 ms
2 * * *
3 10.73.101.1 (10.73.101.1) 617.646 ms 629.846 ms 658.736 ms


"mtr cnn.com" is actually much quicker to get to the last hop so you
know the IP addresses involved. Why Mr. Godwin used a much more elaborate
command, "mtr system2 --address  208.67.220.220" escapes me. If a simple
"mtr system2" didn't work I'm not sure what's going on with his system.
(Of course substitute system2 with either the dnsname or IP address of
system2.)

{^_^}
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Re: why is ipv6 fixly compiled in latest F15 and all F16 kernels?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:
>> Hello, up to Fedora 15 including, there was ipv6 as loadable kernel
>> module and was not problem disable/not load it. But recent F15 and
>> F16 kernels have IPV6 support compiled in kernel, know anyone for
>> which reason? For IPv4-only sites (which is absolute majority) this
>> is unneeded...
>>
> The only reason I can see is to allow the ip6tables firewall stuff to
> work rather than take unknown protocol processing paths.

I think all know modular kernel advantages over modules fixly compiled
into, thus I cannot understand why ipv6 should be exception. And about
some dependencies - from F15 new systemd should perhaps serve all
dependencies much better and easily, it's true?

> Download the
> kernel source and rebuild if it really bugs you on memory.

You mean it seriously? Of course, it is way... But switch to another
distro is in some cases more easier.
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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:
> ...
>I used to look at ntpq when I wanted a clue but that is
>apparently not available for F-16/64?
> ...
F-16 x86_64 has native ntp package (ntp-4.2.6p4-1.fc16.x86_64.rpm
is current version) which contain ntpq command.
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Ric Moore]

On 04/07/2012 07:20 PM, David wrote:


Honest to goodness people!

There are some people that will never let the truth, the facts, or
reality interfere with what they have been told to believe.


Ah! So this is where you've been hiding. Just in lurk mode, I 
re-subscribed just to see how Fedora_users compared to Ubuntu_users. 
Almost the same, when a rant starts it lasts a long time, but thankfully 
far less top posting here. Congrats!


I think we're getting more ex-pat Windows users on the Ubuntu list and 
you can't tell some of them anything.  Ric



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"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/07/2012 03:47 PM, Sam Sharpe wrote:

Changing
the subject has little relevance to how mail clients thread the
messages. But then I'm guessing you're going to say that's wrong too.


Not everybody has their mail client thread messages.  Personally, I've 
always preferred to read them in chronological order, unlike Usenet 
where I want them threaded.

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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA]

On 04/07/2012 07:06 PM, Sam Sharpe wrote:

On 7 April 2012 23:41, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA
  wrote:


   Putting that address into mtr system2 produces the same complaint.

   [bobg@box7 ~]$ mtr system2 --address  10.73.255.21

   Failed to resolve host: Name or service not known

Do you have a host called system2 on your network? That looks like mtr
can't look up the name "system2" which would be as expected if it
doesn't exist.

I would expect you to just do "mtr cnn.com".



   Yes, you are correct sir, I misunderstood the command, mtr
   cnn.com, etc. does work perfectly and again I am seeing the
   system delay of a bit more than 600 ms.

   Thank you,

   Bob



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Re: F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ranjan Maitra]

> 
> egreshko  1595  1483  0 00:21 ?00:00:00 /usr/bin/ssh-agent /bin/sh -c 
> exec -l
> /bin/bash -c "/usr/bin/startlxde"
> 
> and the environment variables are set accordingly.
> 
> SSH_AGENT_PID=1595
> SSH_AUTH_SOCK=/tmp/ssh-CQUbfzKj1483/agent.1483
> SSH_ASKPASS=/usr/libexec/openssh/gnome-ssh-askpass
> CVS_RSH=ssh
> 

Mine reads as follows:

/usr/bin/ssh-agent
SSH_AUTH_SOCK=/tmp/ssh-JZaOxWp10077/agent.10077; export SSH_AUTH_SOCK;
SSH_AGENT_PID=10078; export SSH_AGENT_PID;

> I have never see the need to run "ssh-add" so I don't know what problems are
> encountered by its failure.
> 
> As for the failure of ssh-agent to start  Hummm
> 
> Maybe I would try booting my system in multi-user.target as opposed to
> graphical.target and then manually run startlxde and check the results.  (But 
> I would
> do that after I wake up ... considering it is 00:30 here  :-) 0

Thanks! I guess that would mean booting after removing the rhgb?

Ranjan
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[David]

On 4/7/2012 6:03 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 07.04.2012 23:41, schrieb Sam Sharpe:
>> Fascinating as these headers are, lets look back at the headers
>> of the message Fernando replied to and you called him out for bad
>> etiquette:
>> 
>> To: Fedora List  Reply-To:
>> p...@pricom.com.au, Community support for Fedora users
>> 
>> 
>> Do you acknowledge that those headers, when replying might cause
>> you to send your reply to three addresses?
> 
> no
> 
> this would only mean reply to "p...@pricom.com.au" and not 
> additionally to two other addressess
> 
> but as MULTIPLE explained:
> 
> is is in the responsible of the HUMAN who press "send" to verify
> that the RCPT is what he want and not act blindly
> 
> what you also stil do not realize is that my topic change was not
> because ONE single message, it was caused by get way too much
> useless copies all over the time
> 
> 
>> This is you I presume: 
>> http://www.rhsoft.net/show_content.php?sid=2
> 
> yes
> 
>> This is me: http://www.linkedin.com/in/samsharpe
> 
> and now?
> 
>> Given that one of us is a senior engineer for a rather large
>> managed hosting company and probably spends 50% of his time
>> dealing with mail issues for thousands of customers and the other
>> one is you, precisely what is your grounds for calling me
>> ignorant of mail issues? Actually don't answer that, I probably
>> don't care what you think as it will probably be a long message
>> about how I am wrong.
> 
> who do you think you are?
> 
> i try to prevent get personal now but let's said one thing
> 
> my expierience in the last years is that as larger the copmany and
> as more titles a person has the real knowledge is directly the
> opposite
> 
> so no, you can not impress me with any reference and the fact that 
> you stil do not understand why "reply all" is idiotic (to say it
> clear) shows that you are one more of the "big but failing"
> 
> is it really so hard to understand that my intention was to educate
> people that "reply all" in context of mailing-lists is ALWAYS wrong
> and taht the fact that i get TWO messages twice from Fernando which
> was no direct reply to me was the reason to say "now it is
> enough"?
> 
> if you still think "reply all" is the correct method to reply ona
> mailing-list please do not reply any more and leave me fuck in
> peace because you are a perfect example for "learning resistent"
> and i have really better things to do as explain such people again
> and again basics


Honest to goodness people!

There are some people that will never let the truth, the facts, or
reality interfere with what they have been told to believe.


-- 

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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[Sam Sharpe]

On 7 April 2012 23:41, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA
 wrote:

>       Putting that address into mtr system2 produces the same complaint.
>
>           [bobg@box7 ~]$ mtr system2 --address  10.73.255.21
>
>           Failed to resolve host: Name or service not known

Do you have a host called system2 on your network? That looks like mtr
can't look up the name "system2" which would be as expected if it
doesn't exist.

I would expect you to just do "mtr cnn.com".

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Sam Sharpe]

On 7 April 2012 23:56, Reindl Harald  wrote:
> so may have not - but the will even not if you paint
> them a picture - so hwat exactly is your danmed problem?

I've been trying to work out what your problem is all day, you started
this thread, not me. You could have ended it right after I pointed out
what the technical problem with the list was, but you kept arguing
something, anything.

> unbelieveable how every single technical fact is growing to
> a really large thread by some idiots who research every single
> word of every post while too stupid to understand the context

Again, you've called me an idiot. Please do cite relevant facts to
back that up, otherwise the only person who looks like a childish
idiot here is you.

I don't research every word of your posts - you flatter yourself if
you think I spend that much time on you - I just know what I'm talking
about and I restrict myself to my areas of competence, I wish others
did the same.

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 08.04.2012 00:47, schrieb Sam Sharpe:
> On 7 April 2012 23:36, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Am 08.04.2012 00:28, schrieb Sam Sharpe:
>>> All I want is for you to agree that you were wrong to make that
>>> initial personal accusation and to get on with you life, stop name
>>> dropping Wietse and grow up, you are 34 years old, so start acting it.
>>> I only dropped my credentials in there because you called me ignorant
>>> by implication, but apparently I'm now ignorant because I work for a
>>> big company, even though if you checked you'd see we aren't failing.
>>> Ho hum. Good luck with your career.
>>
>> "initial personal accusation"
> 
> Yes, in this thread you named one particular user in your first
> (initial) message. Do you need me to quote it for you?

no, it was a (exetremly) example for blindly press "send"

>> why do you think i changed the subject?
>> why do you think i changed the subject to a generic one?
> 
> I checked back, I don't see you apologising on the thread before you
> changed the subject. Could you point that out for me, just for the
> record?

i really do not have to apologize for anything by
try to educate people not making the same mistakes
now and in the future

>> do you not realize that my change of the subject was to generic
>> show by a specific eample in the form of some headers
>> what is going wrong?
> 
> Do you not realise that message threading is via Message-ID,
> In-Reply-To and References headers and not via the Subject? Changing
> the subject has little relevance to how mail clients thread the
> messages. But then I'm guessing you're going to say that's wrong too.

do you not realize taht you personally do not interest me
in any way - some users have understood what i trid to say

so may have not - but the will even not if you paint
them a picture - so hwat exactly is your danmed problem?

use your mail-client in a proper way or if you do not do not
cry that nobody have told you how to do it - not more and not
less and now leave me personally fuck in peace

unbelieveable how every single technical fact is growing to
a really large thread by some idiots who research every single
word of every post while too stupid to understand the context



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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Sam Sharpe]

On 7 April 2012 23:36, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
>
> Am 08.04.2012 00:28, schrieb Sam Sharpe:
>> All I want is for you to agree that you were wrong to make that
>> initial personal accusation and to get on with you life, stop name
>> dropping Wietse and grow up, you are 34 years old, so start acting it.
>> I only dropped my credentials in there because you called me ignorant
>> by implication, but apparently I'm now ignorant because I work for a
>> big company, even though if you checked you'd see we aren't failing.
>> Ho hum. Good luck with your career.
>
> "initial personal accusation"

Yes, in this thread you named one particular user in your first
(initial) message. Do you need me to quote it for you?

> why do you think i changed the subject?
> why do you think i changed the subject to a generic one?

I checked back, I don't see you apologising on the thread before you
changed the subject. Could you point that out for me, just for the
record?

> do you not realize that my change of the subject was to generic
> show by a specific eample in the form of some headers
> what is going wrong?

Do you not realise that message threading is via Message-ID,
In-Reply-To and References headers and not via the Subject? Changing
the subject has little relevance to how mail clients thread the
messages. But then I'm guessing you're going to say that's wrong too.

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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA]

On 04/07/2012 06:03 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 04/07/2012 08:39 AM, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:

How can I measure system transit time in this satellite system.
I don't need great precision, just a rough idea of the time from
here to the satellite, back down to the earth station/gateway,
destination, and return.


Traceroute will give you the IP address of the first router after the 
satellite and the transit time.  Once you have that, you can simply 
ping the router to get current data.



   I think traceroute probably tells me what I wanted to know, The
   system delay is > 600 ms.

   [bobg@box7 ~]$ traceroute cnn.com
   traceroute to cnn.com (157.166.226.26), 30 hops max, 60 byte
   packets
 1  192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1)  1.551 ms  1.497 ms  1.452 ms
 2  * * *
 3  10.73.101.1 (10.73.101.1)  617.646 ms  629.846 ms 
   658.736 ms

   .   snip   



   Putting that address into mtr system2 produces the same complaint.

   [bobg@box7 ~]$ mtr system2 --address  10.73.255.21
   Failed to resolve host: Name or service not known


   But now I know what I was looking for, apparently the "latency,"
   I prefer to think of it as system delay is about half what it
   had been on the old system. This is ViaSat/Wildblue's new 
   system. I'm seeing download speeds of 20 mbps best case,

   typically 13 - 14, about ten times what we had for the last six
   years.

   And no, I could not find ntpq for F-16/64. I found an RPM for
   F-15 but that wanted another that wasn't available ...

   Thanks for the help,

   Bob

   -- 
   http://www.qrz.com/db/W2BOD


   box7

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 08.04.2012 00:28, schrieb Sam Sharpe:
> All I want is for you to agree that you were wrong to make that
> initial personal accusation and to get on with you life, stop name
> dropping Wietse and grow up, you are 34 years old, so start acting it.
> I only dropped my credentials in there because you called me ignorant
> by implication, but apparently I'm now ignorant because I work for a
> big company, even though if you checked you'd see we aren't failing.
> Ho hum. Good luck with your career.

"initial personal accusation"

why do you think i changed the subject?
why do you think i changed the subject to a generic one?

do you not realize that my change of the subject was to generic
show by a specific eample in the form of some headers
what is going wrong?

why?





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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Sam Sharpe]

On 7 April 2012 23:03, Reindl Harald  wrote:

> so no, you can not impress me with any reference and the fact that
> you stil do not understand why "reply all" is idiotic (to say it clear)
> shows that you are one more of the "big but failing"

At no point have I discussed whether reply to all is correct or
incorrect. At no point have I disagreed or agreed with you on this.
You do not know my feelings on this, it has not been a point of
discussion between us. Please don't attribute viewpoints to me that
you think I should hold because it gives you reason to disagree with
me.

I simply stated that you were wrong to call out one single user for
bad etiquette, given that their reply method was reasonable given the
headers of the message. If you didn't want to make this personal, I
don't see why you named one person in your original email.

The reply had 3 recipients because firstly the Reply-To named the list
and the OP and secondly the To named an alias for the list. One was a
technical fail by the list software for having that alias, the second
was exactly as specified in the Reply-To header. Are you really
arguing this point? If it was just a "Reply" it would have gone to the
OP and to the list (two addresses) and apparently that's still
unacceptable to you and wrong by your definition.

All I want is for you to agree that you were wrong to make that
initial personal accusation and to get on with you life, stop name
dropping Wietse and grow up, you are 34 years old, so start acting it.
I only dropped my credentials in there because you called me ignorant
by implication, but apparently I'm now ignorant because I work for a
big company, even though if you checked you'd see we aren't failing.
Ho hum. Good luck with your career.

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 23:41, schrieb Sam Sharpe:
> Fascinating as these headers are, lets look back at the headers of the
> message Fernando replied to and you called him out for bad etiquette:
> 
> To: Fedora List 
> Reply-To: p...@pricom.com.au,
>   Community support for Fedora users 
> 
> Do you acknowledge that those headers, when replying might cause you
> to send your reply to three addresses? 

to make it clear and short

NO it would NEVER lead in reply to threee addresses
where do you see THREE in "reply-to"?

mail-headers are not a gambling machine



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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/07/2012 08:39 AM, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:

How can I measure system transit time in this satellite system.
I don't need great precision, just a rough idea of the time from
here to the satellite, back down to the earth station/gateway,
destination, and return.


Traceroute will give you the IP address of the first router after the 
satellite and the transit time.  Once you have that, you can simply ping 
the router to get current data.

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 23:41, schrieb Sam Sharpe:
> Fascinating as these headers are, lets look back at the headers of the
> message Fernando replied to and you called him out for bad etiquette:
> 
> To: Fedora List 
> Reply-To: p...@pricom.com.au,
>   Community support for Fedora users 
> 
> Do you acknowledge that those headers, when replying might cause you
> to send your reply to three addresses? 

no

this would only mean reply to "p...@pricom.com.au" and not
additionally to two other addressess

but as MULTIPLE explained:

is is in the responsible of the HUMAN who press "send"
to verify that the RCPT is what he want and not act
blindly

what you also stil do not realize is that my topic change
was not because ONE single message, it was caused by get
way too much useless copies all over the time


> This is you I presume:
> http://www.rhsoft.net/show_content.php?sid=2

yes

> This is me:
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/samsharpe

and now?

> Given that one of us is a senior engineer for a rather large managed
> hosting company and probably spends 50% of his time dealing with mail
> issues for thousands of customers and the other one is you, precisely
> what is your grounds for calling me ignorant of mail issues? Actually
> don't answer that, I probably don't care what you think as it will
> probably be a long message about how I am wrong.

who do you think you are?

i try to prevent get personal now but let's said one thing

my expierience in the last years is that as larger the
copmany and as more titles a person has the real knowledge
is directly the opposite

so no, you can not impress me with any reference and the fact that
you stil do not understand why "reply all" is idiotic (to say it clear)
shows that you are one more of the "big but failing"

is it really so hard to understand that my intention was to
educate people that "reply all" in context of mailing-lists
is ALWAYS wrong and taht the fact that i get TWO messages
twice from Fernando which was no direct reply to me
was the reason to say "now it is enough"?

if you still think "reply all" is the correct method
to reply ona mailing-list please do not reply any more
and leave me fuck in peace because you are a perfect
example for "learning resistent" and i have really
better things to do as explain such people again and
again basics




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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Sam Sharpe]

On 7 April 2012 20:04, Reindl Harald  wrote:
> well, reply is enough to act correct
> each list-message has a "Reply-To"-header
>
> so everyone even with gmail must be ignorant to
> say "it is not the fault of the user"
> -
>
> X-BeenThere: users@lists.fedoraproject.org

> Errors-To: users-boun...@lists.fedoraproject.org

Fascinating as these headers are, lets look back at the headers of the
message Fernando replied to and you called him out for bad etiquette:

To: Fedora List 
Reply-To: p...@pricom.com.au,
Community support for Fedora users 

Do you acknowledge that those headers, when replying might cause you
to send your reply to three addresses? Do you understand why that is?
Do you understand why highlighting Fernando for poor etiquette was the
wrong thing to do when the problem is with the list itself. Do you
perhaps feel in any way you should publicly apologise for being wrong
and smearing someone's name? Nope, I thought not - Everyone's wrong
but you I guess.

I also think you have just described me as ignorant for using Gmail.
Thanks for that.

This is you I presume:
http://www.rhsoft.net/show_content.php?sid=2

This is me:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/samsharpe

Given that one of us is a senior engineer for a rather large managed
hosting company and probably spends 50% of his time dealing with mail
issues for thousands of customers and the other one is you, precisely
what is your grounds for calling me ignorant of mail issues? Actually
don't answer that, I probably don't care what you think as it will
probably be a long message about how I am wrong.

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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[Aaron Konstam]

On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 11:39 -0400, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA
wrote: 
> How can I measure system transit time in this satellite system.
> I don't need great precision, just a rough idea of the time from
> here to the satellite, back down to the earth station/gateway,
> destination, and return.
> 
> I used to look at ntpq when I wanted a clue but that is
> apparently not available for F-16/64?
> 
it is available foor F16 /32. Are you sur eit is not axailable for
F16/64? 
> I installed "latencytop" but I don't see how to use it for this
> purpose?
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://www.qrz.com/db/W2BOD
> 
> box7
> 


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===
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Sam Sharpe]

On 7 April 2012 19:21, Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 17:07 +0100, Sam Sharpe wrote:
>> Fernando has the
>> same on his Gmail I would guess, so he didn't hit "Reply to All" - he
>> has no such option.
>
> Actually Gmail has both Reply and Reply to All. What it doesn't have is
> Reply to List. That's one reason I access my lists via Evolution, even
> though my account is on Gmail.

Where precisely does it have those options?

Here are the options I have to reply to your email:

http://i40.tinypic.com/2vtqdk5.jpg

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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA]

On 04/07/2012 03:56 PM, jdow wrote:

On 2012/04/07 08:39, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:

How can I measure system transit time in this satellite system.
I don't need great precision, just a rough idea of the time from
here to the satellite, back down to the earth station/gateway,
destination, and return.

I used to look at ntpq when I wanted a clue but that is
apparently not available for F-16/64?

I installed "latencytop" but I don't see how to use it for this
purpose?


If it is TCP/IP all the way and you are speaking of two distinct end
points, you can get a fairly good idea by using "mtr system2" from
system1. You'll also see the delays at each hop as well. It's only
an indication. But it's better than nothing.



   This looks like it might do but I'm afraid I don't understand
   the man page, what am I doing wrong?

   [bobg@box7 ~]$ mtr system2 --address  208.67.220.220
   Failed to resolve host: Name or service not known

   I just picked that address 'cause it came to mind.

   Bob


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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 21:43, schrieb jdow:
> On 2012/04/07 10:55, Reindl Harald wrote:
> 
>> correct, but there will always be  Reindl, you are a useful
>> new users which are not   member of this list. Please
>> realizing that they are doing  drop this nonsense so this
>> something wrong and they can  impression is not destroyed
>> not realize if no one is telling it   by your incessant banal banter.
>>
>> but they are not the real problem You are the real problem.
>>
>> the real problem are people answering You take offense at people being
>> in this topic "The normal way people, for newbies being newbies.
>> to reply is to use reply all" because This is silly, counter productive,
>> they are learning resistent,  and rather childish.
>> have no idea how to use a mail-client
>> and tell users which maybe{^_^} (With malice aforethought.)
>> partly understood what they are doing
>> wrong that they do not

the only childish things are "funny" replies like yours

i only try to explain how to use really simple things
like a mailing list and how to use a mailprogram

if this is a problem for you i can not really help you



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Re: System transit time, Latency -

[jdow]

On 2012/04/07 08:39, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:

How can I measure system transit time in this satellite system.
I don't need great precision, just a rough idea of the time from
here to the satellite, back down to the earth station/gateway,
destination, and return.

I used to look at ntpq when I wanted a clue but that is
apparently not available for F-16/64?

I installed "latencytop" but I don't see how to use it for this
purpose?


If it is TCP/IP all the way and you are speaking of two distinct end
points, you can get a fairly good idea by using "mtr system2" from
system1. You'll also see the delays at each hop as well. It's only
an indication. But it's better than nothing.

If I needed something more accurate I'd setup a TCP link with the nagle
algorithm turned off so data is sent instantly rather than cued up for
a variable period of time. This might require whipping up a suitable
tool if you don't have one. And you'd have to use the tool at both
ends of the path.

Of course, the easy way, since you cite ntpq working in the past for this
purpose, is to look for where Fedora stuck this important ntp performance
monitor. I can't believe they left it out. (No, I take it back. I can
believe almost any nonsense out of Fedora. Thankfully, they usually get
over it quickly enough.)

{^_^}
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[jdow]

On 2012/04/07 10:55, Reindl Harald wrote:


correct, but there will always be  Reindl, you are a useful

> new users which are not   member of this list. Please

realizing that they are doing  drop this nonsense so this

> something wrong and they can  impression is not destroyed

not realize if no one is telling it   by your incessant banal banter.

but they are not the real problem You are the real problem.

the real problem are people answering You take offense at people being

> in this topic "The normal way people, for newbies being newbies.

to reply is to use reply all" because This is silly, counter productive,

> they are learning resistent,  and rather childish.

have no idea how to use a mail-client

> and tell users which maybe{^_^} (With malice aforethought.)

partly understood what they are doing

> wrong that they do not
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 21:27, schrieb Bruno Wolff III:
> On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 21:20:31 +0200,
>   Reindl Harald  wrote:
>>
>> set reply-to headers is for people who are unable for
>> "reply-to-list" by their bad mail-program or ignorance
> 
> Not exactly. The reason people started doing this as people were meaning
> to reply to list messages, but were using the reply to sender function
> they normally used instead of reply to all or reply to list and were
> confused why their messages weren't go to the list. A lot of list owners
> thought that reply-to munging was better option than trying to educate people.

sad enough to see that educate AND reply-to munging does not
help at all - there is really not more you can do as hope
people are starting to think what they are doing

>> please: subscribe to postfix list and press 3 times
>> "reply all" and after that report what answers you get
> 
> Sorry, I am a qmail user, not a postfix user.

this was only a example

it happended 3 times that i pressed "reply all" to the list-owner
and core-developer because it is my normal action since most
of my mail-flow is business-only where it is a must

compared with the reply every single post of my here and
on devel-list is polite - and yes after that i understood
what i did wrong and it does not happen again becasue since
this day i am aware of the difference metween "normal" and list
communication

and yes i can understand wieste each day more and more
i get around 400 mails each day, there is really no need
for duplicate ones and i am not the only person affected

the other ones are mostly too polite and many lost hope
that  educate people will have any effect



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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 21:20:31 +0200,
  Reindl Harald  wrote:


set reply-to headers is for people who are unable for
"reply-to-list" by their bad mail-program or ignorance


Not exactly. The reason people started doing this as people were meaning
to reply to list messages, but were using the reply to sender function
they normally used instead of reply to all or reply to list and were
confused why their messages weren't go to the list. A lot of list owners
thought that reply-to munging was better option than trying to educate people.


please: subscribe to postfix list and press 3 times
"reply all" and after that report what answers you get


Sorry, I am a qmail user, not a postfix user.
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 21:08, schrieb Bruno Wolff III:
> On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 21:04:38 +0200,
>   Reindl Harald  wrote:
>>
>> well, reply is enough to act correct
>> each list-message has a "Reply-To"-header
> 
> No each list doesn't have that. Many Fedora lists do. 

so what, we are speaking about this list and possible
excuses which are not valid for this list

> Doing this (lists munging reply-to headers) is also a bad idea, as it breaks 
> the reply to sender function.

ok, you are really learning resistent
and yes, this is a polite statement

set reply-to headers is for people who are unable for
"reply-to-list" by their bad mail-program or ignorance

the normal mail-flow in a list is send and reply only
to the list, if you really want to reply off-list
for whatever reason you should be able to copy
the address manually or not use email at all

really: now this thread reaches for me the point of
personal anger and frustration because it is a mix
of ignorance and stupid argumentation for one of
the simplest things in the world namely press "reply"
instead "reply all" which is only suiteable in offlist
communictaion where many people are involved but at least
unacceptable as standard-actions on mailing-lists

please: subscribe to postfix list and press 3 times
"reply all" and after that report what answers you get

compared with this i am really polite because there
are usually advanced mail-users and mailserver admins
with ZERO understanding for argumentations like yours



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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 21:04:38 +0200,
  Reindl Harald  wrote:


well, reply is enough to act correct
each list-message has a "Reply-To"-header


No each list doesn't have that. Many Fedora lists do. Doing this (lists
munging reply-to headers) is also a bad idea, as it breaks the reply to
sender function.
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 20:21, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
> On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 17:07 +0100, Sam Sharpe wrote:
>> Fernando has the
>> same on his Gmail I would guess, so he didn't hit "Reply to All" - he
>> has no such option.
> 
> Actually Gmail has both Reply and Reply to All. What it doesn't have is
> Reply to List. That's one reason I access my lists via Evolution, even
> though my account is on Gmail.

well, reply is enough to act correct
each list-message has a "Reply-To"-header

so everyone even with gmail must be ignorant to
say "it is not the fault of the user"
-

X-BeenThere: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Community support for Fedora users 
List-Id: Community support for Fedora users 
List-Unsubscribe: ,

List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: ,

Sender: users-boun...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Errors-To: users-boun...@lists.fedoraproject.org



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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 17:07 +0100, Sam Sharpe wrote:
> Fernando has the
> same on his Gmail I would guess, so he didn't hit "Reply to All" - he
> has no such option.

Actually Gmail has both Reply and Reply to All. What it doesn't have is
Reply to List. That's one reason I access my lists via Evolution, even
though my account is on Gmail.

poc

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RE: Fedora 16: dropping spontaneously into "Emergency Mode"

['Chris Hall']

T.C. Hollingsworth wrote (on Sat 07-Apr-2012 at 18:02 +0100):

> > Can anybody point be in the direction of what is going on here,
> > and how I may be able to restore some stability to my Fedora 16
> > installation, which is currently falling over about once a day at
> > random.

> Well, the real fix here is to figure out why /dev/sdb5 isn't
> mounting.

Should I expect failure to mount a partition I am not using to bring the entire 
system down ?  It mounts well enough at boot time... so I'm unclear why it 
would need to be remounted.

>  Do you get any messages from the kernel at that time?  It looks
> like you just grepped for systemd.

The messages I clipped out of /var/log/messages where the last few just before 
it died (and turned off logging).

> To workaround the issue, you can switch /dev/sdb5 to be mounted on-
> demand when you first access it, instead of on boot, by adding
> "comment=systemd.automount" to the options section of the device in
> /etc/fstab.  Or, you can tell systemd that you don't care that the
> device can't be mounted by adding "nofail" to the options section
> instead.

OK.  I'll add the "nofail"... but I am astonished that a disc failure will 
crash the system.  In my experience disc failure is not *that* unusual !

Thanks,

Chris

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 19:31, schrieb Craig White:
> On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 18:21 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>
>> register on a mailing-list usually means people
>> are sending and replying to the list-adress and
>> that there is no reason for "reply all"
>>
>> there is no "i want mails twice" setting
>> so nobody can imply "reply all" is the right action 
> 
> just like you really can't stop people from top posting, sending html
> format mail to lists, you can't prevent them from reply all either.
> 
> You can however use a reasonably intelligent mail server such as
> cyrus-imapd which does offer duplicate suppression so this is a
> non-factor.
> 
> But bemoaning those who reply all is as pointless as berating those who
> top post but that doesn't stop those with little better to do.

correct, but there will always be new users which are not
realizing that they are doing something wrong and they can
not realize if no one is telling it

but they are not the real problem

the real problem are people answering in this topic "The normal way
to reply is to use reply all" because they are learning resistent,
have no idea how to use a mail-client and tell users which maybe
partly understood what they are doing wrong that they do not





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Re: F16: Raid1 /home failing to restart cleanly

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 19:45, schrieb 'Chris Hall':
> Reindl Harald wrote (on Sat 07-Apr-2012 at 16:22 +0100):
>> Am 07.04.2012 17:10, schrieb 'Chris Hall':
>>>
>>> I have a /home partition which is set up as a Software RAID1,
>>> using /dev/md0.
>>>
>>> When I reboot the /dev/md0 fails to come up cleanly.  So far it
>>> has come back each time, but nearly every time it comes up with one
>>> of the two members of the RAID array missing.  I can mdadm /dev/md0
>>> --re-add /dev/sdb3 -- and all is apparently well again.  But I have
>>> this partition as RAID for a reason, and it scares the bejazus out
>>> of me each time :-(
>>>
>>> Any clues as to what spells I have failed to cast?
> 
>> that was discussed several times and is a bug you can workaround
>> easy
>> as you see below all raid-uuids are passed with "rd_MD_UUID=" as
>> additional kernel-parameters, after that this will not happen again
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion.  I fiddled with /etc/default/grub so that it says:
> 
>   GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX="rd.md.uuid=4f1c8224:cab0d0b2:f3ea7c36:7853abb8 rd.lvm=0 
> rd.dm=0 ."
> 
> replacing an "rd.md=0" which was there before.  That generates the following 
> in grub.cfg:
> 
>   menuentry 'Fedora Linux, with Linux 3.3.0-8.fc16.x86_64' --class fedora 
> --class gnu-linux --class gnu --class os {
>   .
> linux   /vmlinuz-3.3.0-8.fc16.x86_64 
> root=UUID=76b8f7f4-f9ba-47cb-9a4b-ac0ad8c33b8a ro 
> rd.md.uuid=4f1c8224:cab0d0b2:f3ea7c36:7853abb8 rd.lvm=0 rd.dm=0 quiet 
> SYSFONT=latarcyrheb-sun16 rhgb  KEYTABLE=uk rd.luks=0 LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> 
> Unfortunately, this has not helped.  The /dev/md0 came up with just one half 
> running.  All the stuff in the /var/log/messages which appears relevant:

please post your /etc/default/grub, /etc/mdadm.conf and /boot/grub2/grub.cfg
and do not strip content you may think it is not important, it could
and maybe someone sees the problem if you do not hide it



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RE: F16: Raid1 /home failing to restart cleanly

['Chris Hall']

Reindl Harald wrote (on Sat 07-Apr-2012 at 16:22 +0100):
> Am 07.04.2012 17:10, schrieb 'Chris Hall':
> >
> > I have a /home partition which is set up as a Software RAID1,
> > using /dev/md0.
> >
> > When I reboot the /dev/md0 fails to come up cleanly.  So far it
> > has come back each time, but nearly every time it comes up with one
> > of the two members of the RAID array missing.  I can mdadm /dev/md0
> > --re-add /dev/sdb3 -- and all is apparently well again.  But I have
> > this partition as RAID for a reason, and it scares the bejazus out
> > of me each time :-(
> >
> > Any clues as to what spells I have failed to cast?

> that was discussed several times and is a bug you can workaround
> easy
> as you see below all raid-uuids are passed with "rd_MD_UUID=" as
> additional kernel-parameters, after that this will not happen again

Thanks for the suggestion.  I fiddled with /etc/default/grub so that it says:

  GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX="rd.md.uuid=4f1c8224:cab0d0b2:f3ea7c36:7853abb8 rd.lvm=0 
rd.dm=0 ."

replacing an "rd.md=0" which was there before.  That generates the following in 
grub.cfg:

  menuentry 'Fedora Linux, with Linux 3.3.0-8.fc16.x86_64' --class fedora 
--class gnu-linux --class gnu --class os {
  .
linux   /vmlinuz-3.3.0-8.fc16.x86_64 
root=UUID=76b8f7f4-f9ba-47cb-9a4b-ac0ad8c33b8a ro 
rd.md.uuid=4f1c8224:cab0d0b2:f3ea7c36:7853abb8 rd.lvm=0 rd.dm=0 quiet 
SYSFONT=latarcyrheb-sun16 rhgb  KEYTABLE=uk rd.luks=0 LANG=en_US.UTF-8

Unfortunately, this has not helped.  The /dev/md0 came up with just one half 
running.  All the stuff in the /var/log/messages which appears relevant:

Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.342287] mdadm: sending ioctl 800c0910 to 
a partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.342296] mdadm: sending ioctl 800c0910 to 
a partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.342312] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.342317] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.347002] mdadm: sending ioctl 800c0910 to 
a partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.347030] mdadm: sending ioctl 800c0910 to 
a partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.347045] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.347050] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.364534] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.364542] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.460442] md: bind
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [3.465396] md: raid1 personality registered 
for level 1
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [4.614820] md/raid1:md0: active with 1 out 
of 2 mirrors
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [4.614991] created bitmap (3 pages) for 
device md0
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [4.615737] md0: bitmap initialized from 
disk: read 1/1 pages, set 34 of 5120 bits
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [4.636179] md0: detected capacity change 
from 0 to 343596199936
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [4.645098]  md0: unknown partition table
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   21.099317] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   21.099318] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   22.250574] mdadm: sending ioctl 800c0910 to 
a partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   22.250583] mdadm: sending ioctl 800c0910 to 
a partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   22.250598] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   22.250603] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   22.253646] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   22.253655] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   22.253869] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   22.253875] mdadm: sending ioctl 1261 to a 
partition!
Apr  7 17:34:04 hestia kernel: [   26.315777] EXT4-fs (md0): mounted filesystem 
with ordered data mode. Opts: (null)

...in this case it does not appear to have even looked at /dev/sdb3 -- the 
other half of the RAID1 !

Looking back through the logs from previous reboots I find:

Apr  6 14:39:47 hestia kernel: [   12.383096] md: bind
Apr  6 14:39:47 hestia kernel: [   12.427959] md: bind
Apr  6 14:39:47 hestia kernel: [   12.429449] md: kicking non-fresh sdb3 from 
array!
Apr  6 14:39:47 hestia kernel: [   12.429460] md: unbind
Apr  6 14:39:47 hestia kernel: [   12.429540] md: export_rdev(sdb3)
Apr  6 14:39:47 hestia kernel: [   12.447895] md: raid1 personality registered 
for level 1
Apr  6 14:39:47 hestia kernel: [   12.448519] md/raid1:md0: active with 1 out 
of 2 mirrors
Apr  6 14:39:47 hestia kernel: [   12.478349] created bitmap (3 pages) for 
device md0
Apr  6 14:39:47 hestia kernel: [   12.478752] md0: bitmap initialized fro

Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Craig White]

On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 18:21 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> 
> register on a mailing-list usually means people
> are sending and replying to the list-adress and
> that there is no reason for "reply all"
> 
> there is no "i want mails twice" setting
> so nobody can imply "reply all" is the right action 

just like you really can't stop people from top posting, sending html
format mail to lists, you can't prevent them from reply all either.

You can however use a reasonably intelligent mail server such as
cyrus-imapd which does offer duplicate suppression so this is a
non-factor.

But bemoaning those who reply all is as pointless as berating those who
top post but that doesn't stop those with little better to do.

Craig


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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[T.C. Hollingsworth]

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Ed Greshko  wrote:
> On 04/08/2012 12:41 AM, T.C. Hollingsworth wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 3:43 AM, Sam Sharpe  
>> wrote:
>>> The fix for this is to disable the old list address and bounce it with
>>> a message indicating the correct new list address, instead of
>>> forwarding it on to the real list address. It's been a while since the
>>> list hosting was moved, perhaps now it's worth severing the ties.
>> I just requested this:
>> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/3230
>>
>
> I see you rated the Severity as "Trivial".  While this is probably the 
> "correct"
> level you could have mentioned in the ticket that this issue does, from time 
> to time,
> result in a kerfuffle on the list giving rise to certain people (who will 
> remain
> nameless) calling for the demise of mailing lists in favor of web-based help 
> forums only.

Read the last sentence of the "phenomenon" section.  :-)

-T.C.
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Re: Fedora 16: dropping spontaneously into "Emergency Mode"

[T.C. Hollingsworth]

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Chris Hall
 wrote:
> Having recently installed Fedora 16, replacing Fedora 14, I am now plagued by 
> the thing spontaneously falling into "Emergency Mode"... "Welcome to 
> Emergency Mode" ha ha !
>
> The last things in /var/log/messages are:

>
> As it happens, /dev/sdb5 is a back-up partition... so is not in use most of 
> the time... so (assuming this is the trigger for the system falling over) I 
> don't know why it was suddenly felt to be essential to be able to start it... 
> it is mounted when the system is booted.
>
> The other suspicious character is ntpd to whom somebody has sent a SIGTERM 
> and who appears to have sent a lot of "stuff" to the logging, which is 
> nowhere to be seen :-(
>
> Can anybody point be in the direction of what is going on here, and how I may 
> be able to restore some stability to my Fedora 16 installation, which is 
> currently falling over about once a day at random.

Well, the real fix here is to figure out why /dev/sdb5 isn't mounting.
 Do you get any messages from the kernel at that time?  It looks like
you just grepped for systemd.

To workaround the issue, you can switch /dev/sdb5 to be mounted
on-demand when you first access it, instead of on boot, by adding
"comment=systemd.automount" to the options section of the device in
/etc/fstab.  Or, you can tell systemd that you don't care that the
device can't be mounted by adding "nofail" to the options section
instead.

-T.C.
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Ed Greshko]

On 04/08/2012 12:41 AM, T.C. Hollingsworth wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 3:43 AM, Sam Sharpe  wrote:
>> The fix for this is to disable the old list address and bounce it with
>> a message indicating the correct new list address, instead of
>> forwarding it on to the real list address. It's been a while since the
>> list hosting was moved, perhaps now it's worth severing the ties.
> I just requested this:
> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/3230
>

I see you rated the Severity as "Trivial".  While this is probably the "correct"
level you could have mentioned in the ticket that this issue does, from time to 
time,
result in a kerfuffle on the list giving rise to certain people (who will remain
nameless) calling for the demise of mailing lists in favor of web-based help 
forums only.

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the joke
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Sun, Apr 08, 2012 at 00:35:25 +0800,
  Ed Greshko  wrote:


I would lobby the fedora list managers to deactivate the fedora-l...@redhat.com
address and return an error message to anyone sending to that list address.


Everyone who has expressed an opinion in this thread seems to be in 
agreement that it is time to take the next step in phasing out the old 
lists.

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 18:21:09 +0200,
  Reindl Harald  wrote:


because i get often enough mails twice as reply
and i can not remember that i configured anything
in a way imply that i want this


I already told you how to do that. You either have your email client
send a mail-followup-to header or you set your preference for the 
list to not send you a copy when your email address is listed in 
the recipient headers. For the latter go to: 
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users 
And then enter your email addess by the "unsubscribe or edit options" 
button and then hit the button.



register on a mailing-list usually means people
are sending and replying to the list-adress and
that there is no reason for "reply all"


As was previously explained, not every message to mailing lists is 
sent by someone subscribed to the list. There are also reasons 
(latency is one, filter triggering is another) to want to get copies (or 
at least have recipient headers list your address explicitly) both through 
the list and directly.



there is no "i want mails twice" setting
so nobody can imply "reply all" is the right action


Yes there is.
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[T.C. Hollingsworth]

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 3:43 AM, Sam Sharpe  wrote:
> The fix for this is to disable the old list address and bounce it with
> a message indicating the correct new list address, instead of
> forwarding it on to the real list address. It's been a while since the
> list hosting was moved, perhaps now it's worth severing the ties.

I just requested this:
https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/3230

-T.C.
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Ed Greshko]

On 04/08/2012 12:30 AM, Sam Sharpe wrote:
> On 7 April 2012 17:21, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>> some stuff
> Hi,
>
> You don't get my point; you seem to want to keep an argument going. I
> don't understand why, but I know for certain you can't sustain an
> argument on your own, so I'll just cut you off at this end. Have a
> pleasant weekend.
>

If all of this really bothered me...and it doesn't

I would lobby the fedora list managers to deactivate the fedora-l...@redhat.com
address and return an error message to anyone sending to that list address.

I wouldn't spend my time trying to convince anyone that my understanding of the 
issue
was superior to another. 

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the joke
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Sam Sharpe]

On 7 April 2012 17:21, Reindl Harald  wrote:
> some stuff

Hi,

You don't get my point; you seem to want to keep an argument going. I
don't understand why, but I know for certain you can't sustain an
argument on your own, so I'll just cut you off at this end. Have a
pleasant weekend.

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Re: F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ed Greshko]

On 04/08/2012 12:12 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 00:05:50 +0800 Ed Greshko 
> wrote:
>
>> On 04/07/2012 11:53 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>>> So, it had started previously under lxde?
>> FWIW, I just group installed LXDE on a VM and ssh-agent started OK when I 
>> logged in.
>>
> OK, then it is me perhaps. But I did nothing out of the ordinary. What
> do I do to fix the problem? Find it hopefully?
>
> rebooting did not help.

FWIW, my VM wasn't fully updated.  I just ran yum update, rebooted and logged 
in to
the lxde desktop environmentand all was as expected.

egreshko  1595  1483  0 00:21 ?00:00:00 /usr/bin/ssh-agent /bin/sh -c 
exec -l
/bin/bash -c "/usr/bin/startlxde"

and the environment variables are set accordingly.

SSH_AGENT_PID=1595
SSH_AUTH_SOCK=/tmp/ssh-CQUbfzKj1483/agent.1483
SSH_ASKPASS=/usr/libexec/openssh/gnome-ssh-askpass
CVS_RSH=ssh


I have never see the need to run "ssh-add" so I don't know what problems are
encountered by its failure.

As for the failure of ssh-agent to start  Hummm

Maybe I would try booting my system in multi-user.target as opposed to
graphical.target and then manually run startlxde and check the results.  (But I 
would
do that after I wake up ... considering it is 00:30 here  :-) 0

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 18:07, schrieb Sam Sharpe:
> Ok, you're not getting this. Let me explain simply so that you
> understand and we can end this tedious argument you seem to want to
> spend a lot of effort on a weekend to perpetuate.
> 
> There were three email addresses in the reply:
> 
> 1) The sender of the message - whether he wants a reply or not is his
> personal preference, not yours so as you didn't originate the message,
> you have no grounds for argument.

surely i have
why?

because i get often enough mails twice as reply
and i can not remember that i configured anything
in a way imply that i want this

register on a mailing-list usually means people
are sending and replying to the list-adress and
that there is no reason for "reply all"

there is no "i want mails twice" setting
so nobody can imply "reply all" is the right action

> 2) The correct mailing list address - a reply should have gone here.
> 3) The old mailing list address - this should not have been in the
> headers, but the fact it was is not Fernando's fault.

surely

it is ALWAYS the senders fault if he blindly press "send"
without looking to whom he is sending and consider if
this is intentional

> Clearly you aren't a Gmail user

this does not matter

> perhaps you should investigate it

there is nothing to investigate

even if it defaults to "reply all" it is finally controlled
by the human who press "send" which RCPT are there, even
if you press "reply-all" in thunderbird you can control
this before press "send"

> So let me put it bluntly, you blamed the wrong person for the error
> here, you haven't yet apologised for that public mistake and you are
> still acting like an ass. Grow up.

i blamed the correct person but you still refuse to understand
how a mailing-list is designed to work - if you want a copy
of messages which are a direct reply to you you are always
free to make this copy in your mailprogram

but you are terrible wrong if you think you have to do
this sort of copy for all other people out there be
deciding to use "reply all"



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Re: F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ranjan Maitra]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 00:05:50 +0800 Ed Greshko 
wrote:

> On 04/07/2012 11:53 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > So, it had started previously under lxde?
> 
> FWIW, I just group installed LXDE on a VM and ssh-agent started OK when I 
> logged in.
> 

OK, then it is me perhaps. But I did nothing out of the ordinary. What
do I do to fix the problem? Find it hopefully?

rebooting did not help.

Ranjan 
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Sam Sharpe]

On 7 April 2012 15:52, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
>
> Am 07.04.2012 16:48, schrieb Sam Sharpe:
>> On 7 April 2012 14:57, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>>> really, as long you do not understand the headers in
>>> a mail and the fact the no one needs multiple copies
>>> of the same mails do not explain people "the normal way"
>>
>> Scroll up a few messages. I've already stated that the problem was in
>> the headers of the message Phillip originally sent, not in Fernando's
>> reply as you stated. I therefore suggest that you don't understand
>> mail headers either and are not in the best moral position to continue
>> this argument.
>
> this explains the additional @redhat.com address
> but this does not explain all 3 RCPT

Ok, you're not getting this. Let me explain simply so that you
understand and we can end this tedious argument you seem to want to
spend a lot of effort on a weekend to perpetuate.

There were three email addresses in the reply:

1) The sender of the message - whether he wants a reply or not is his
personal preference, not yours so as you didn't originate the message,
you have no grounds for argument.
2) The correct mailing list address - a reply should have gone here.
3) The old mailing list address - this should not have been in the
headers, but the fact it was is not Fernando's fault.

> this is only the result of "reply all" which is (to say it clear)
> completly idiotic on a mailing-list, so do not explain me in
> what position i am if > 50% of messages from this list which
> are a reply of a list-message are coming twice

Clearly you aren't a Gmail user, perhaps you should investigate it, it
would give you something to do that isn't starting pointless flame
wars. I have precisely one "Reply" button, which on a correctly sent
mailing list post replies to only the list address. Fernando has the
same on his Gmail I would guess, so he didn't hit "Reply to All" - he
has no such option.

So let me put it bluntly, you blamed the wrong person for the error
here, you haven't yet apologised for that public mistake and you are
still acting like an ass. Grow up.

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Re: F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ranjan Maitra]

On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 23:53:12 +0800 Ed Greshko 
wrote:

> On 04/07/2012 11:33 PM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
> > This has always been the case from when I used fvwm, xfce and (now) lxde. 
> 
> So, it had started previously under lxde?

Yes, until last night's updates (which may not have been relevant).

> 
> >> So  Does it get started again when you logout/login?
> > No. Do I use systemd on this? But again, I have never had to do this,
> > ever, and I have my ssh-agent running all the time: that is how I
> > connect to the remote machine (without authenticating every time). I can
> > only connect now by typing the passphrase everytime.
> >
> 
> No, it isn't a systemd thing.  It a user process started when/by the starting 
> of the
> desktop.
> 
> I don't really know what you mean by having "ssh-agent running all the time" 
> or why
> you need to have it  I have all of my rsa public keys in the 
> authorized_keys
> files of all of my accounts so that I can ssh to any system without supplying 
> a
> password or pass phrase.  In all of those cases there is no ssh-agent running 
> on the
> system to where I am connecting.

OK, sorry. I was not precise at all: I only understand ssh from a
layman's perspective: I followed exactly the process you outlined
above everytime. Is this a bug? How do I detect what is the issue? 

Rannjan
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Re: F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ed Greshko]

On 04/07/2012 11:53 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> So, it had started previously under lxde?

FWIW, I just group installed LXDE on a VM and ssh-agent started OK when I 
logged in.

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Re: F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ed Greshko]

On 04/07/2012 11:33 PM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
> This has always been the case from when I used fvwm, xfce and (now) lxde. 

So, it had started previously under lxde?

>> So  Does it get started again when you logout/login?
> No. Do I use systemd on this? But again, I have never had to do this,
> ever, and I have my ssh-agent running all the time: that is how I
> connect to the remote machine (without authenticating every time). I can
> only connect now by typing the passphrase everytime.
>

No, it isn't a systemd thing.  It a user process started when/by the starting 
of the
desktop.

I don't really know what you mean by having "ssh-agent running all the time" or 
why
you need to have it  I have all of my rsa public keys in the authorized_keys
files of all of my accounts so that I can ssh to any system without supplying a
password or pass phrase.  In all of those cases there is no ssh-agent running 
on the
system to where I am connecting.

[egreshko@meimei ~]$ ssh f16-1
Last login: Sat Apr  7 23:49:12 2012 from meimei.greshko.com

[egreshko@f16-1 ~]$ ps -eaf | grep ssh
root   938 1  0 15:21 ?00:00:00 /usr/sbin/sshd -D
root 13815   938  1 23:49 ?00:00:00 sshd: egreshko [priv]
egreshko 13818 13815  0 23:49 ?00:00:00 sshd: egreshko@pts/0
egreshko 13886 13819  0 23:49 pts/000:00:00 grep --color=auto ssh

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System transit time, Latency -

[Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA]

   How can I measure system transit time in this satellite system.
   I don't need great precision, just a rough idea of the time from
   here to the satellite, back down to the earth station/gateway,
   destination, and return.

   I used to look at ntpq when I wanted a clue but that is
   apparently not available for F-16/64?

   I installed "latencytop" but I don't see how to use it for this
   purpose?

   Bob


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http://www.qrz.com/db/W2BOD

box7

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/07/2012 08:22 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

I wonder when he'll realize it's counter-productive.


Considering the anti-social nature of the quote, I rather doubt he cares.
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Re: F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ranjan Maitra]

On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 23:28:05 +0800 Ed Greshko 
wrote:

> On 04/07/2012 11:10 PM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
> >> It means /usr/bin/ssh-agent isn't running.
> > But why did it suddenly stop?
> 
> Are you sure it even started?   (See below)

In the past, it has always started. 

> >> > 
> >> > How are you logging in? 
> > The usual way: type password in lxdm. Is this what you were asking?
> 
> I asked because it has been a long time and I've forgotten what process gets 
> it
> going.  I know that it won't get started by logging in via ssh.  I know that 
> when
> using kde it gets started somewhere along the line in the startkde process.  
> Don't
> know what kicks it off in other desktops.

This has always been the case from when I used fvwm, xfce and (now)
lxde.

> So  Does it get started again when you logout/login?

No. Do I use systemd on this? But again, I have never had to do this,
ever, and I have my ssh-agent running all the time: that is how I
connect to the remote machine (without authenticating every time). I can
only connect now by typing the passphrase everytime.

Many thanks again!
Ranjan
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Ed Greshko]

On 04/07/2012 11:22 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> This guy is the only person I've seen in 20 years of using mailing lists
> who puts his signature on top. At least other people's pet obsessions
> are easier to ignore; this one get in the way of every one of his posts.
> I wonder when he'll realize it's counter-productive.

He does know...and he doesn't care.  That is why I ignore all of his posts.

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the joke
of the century. -- Dame Edna Everage
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Re: F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ed Greshko]

On 04/07/2012 11:10 PM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
>> It means /usr/bin/ssh-agent isn't running.
> But why did it suddenly stop?

Are you sure it even started?   (See below)
>
>> > 
>> > How are you logging in? 
> The usual way: type password in lxdm. Is this what you were asking?

I asked because it has been a long time and I've forgotten what process gets it
going.  I know that it won't get started by logging in via ssh.  I know that 
when
using kde it gets started somewhere along the line in the startkde process.  
Don't
know what kicks it off in other desktops.

So  Does it get started again when you logout/login?

-- 
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the joke
of the century. -- Dame Edna Everage
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 10:51 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> oh, and after some verification i saw that
> this is a childish "footer" on top

This guy is the only person I've seen in 20 years of using mailing lists
who puts his signature on top. At least other people's pet obsessions
are easier to ignore; this one get in the way of every one of his posts.
I wonder when he'll realize it's counter-productive.

poc

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Re: F16: Raid1 /home failing to restart cleanly

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 17:10, schrieb 'Chris Hall':
> 
> I have a /home partition which is set up as a Software RAID1, using /dev/md0.
> 
> When I reboot the /dev/md0 fails to come up cleanly.  So far it has come back 
> each time, but nearly every time it comes up with one of the two members of 
> the RAID array missing.  I can mdadm /dev/md0 --re-add /dev/sdb3 -- and all 
> is apparently well again.  But I have this partition as RAID for a reason, 
> and it scares the bejazus out of me each time :-(
> 
> Any clues as to what spells I have failed to cast?

that was discussed several times and is a bug you can workaround easy
as you see below all raid-uuids are passed with "rd_MD_UUID=" as
additional kernel-parameters, after that this will not happen again

(ignore the ton of other kernel-params in my setup)

[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /etc/mdadm.conf
MAILADDR root
AUTO +imsm +1.x -all
ARRAY /dev/md0 level=raid1 num-devices=4 
UUID=1d691642:baed26df:1d197496:4fb00ff8
ARRAY /dev/md1 level=raid10 num-devices=4 
UUID=b7475879:c95d9a47:c5043c02:0c5ae720
ARRAY /dev/md2 level=raid10 num-devices=4 
UUID=ea253255:cb915401:f32794ad:ce0fe396
__

menuentry 'Fedora (3.3.1-2.fc16.x86_64)' --class fedora --class gnu-linux 
--class gnu --class os {
linux   /vmlinuz-3.3.1-2.fc16.x86_64 
root=UUID=b935b5db-0051-4f7f-83ac-6a6651fe0988 ro
rd_MD_UUID=b7475879:c95d9a47:c5043c02:0c5ae720 
rd_MD_UUID=1d691642:baed26df:1d197496:4fb00ff8
rd_MD_UUID=ea253255:cb915401:f32794ad:ce0fe396 rd_NO_LUKS rd_NO_LVM rd_NO_DM 
LANG=de_DE.UTF-8 elevator=cfq
selinux=0 ipv6.disable=1 clocksource=hpet noisapnp noresume nf_conntrack.acct=1 
printk.time=0 nmi_watchdog=0
pcie_aspm=force i915.i915_enable_rc6=1 i915.semaphores=1 i915.i915_enable_fbc=1 
consoleblank=0 acpi_osi=Linux
SYSFONT=latarcyrheb-sun16 KEYTABLE=de-latin1-nodeadkeys






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F16: forever activating certain services...

['Chris Hall']

So the dbus daemon appears to be a busy little bee... but the buzzing noise is 
getting on my nerves.  I see a lot of this stuff in /var/log/messages:

Apr  7 15:49:49 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Activating service 
name='org.freedesktop.PackageKit' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 15:49:49 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Activating 
service name='org.freedesktop.PackageKit' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 15:49:49 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully activated service 
'org.freedesktop.PackageKit'
Apr  7 15:49:49 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully 
activated service 'org.freedesktop.PackageKit'
Apr  7 15:52:22 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Activating service 
name='org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 15:52:22 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Activating 
service name='org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 15:52:22 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: no kernel backlight interface found
Apr  7 15:52:22 hestia org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper: QDBusConnection: 
system D-Bus connection created before QCoreApplication. Application may 
misbehave.
Apr  7 15:52:22 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully activated service 
'org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper'
Apr  7 15:52:22 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully 
activated service 'org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper'
Apr  7 15:53:06 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Activating service 
name='org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 15:53:06 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Activating 
service name='org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 15:53:06 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: no kernel backlight interface found
Apr  7 15:53:06 hestia org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper: QDBusConnection: 
system D-Bus connection created before QCoreApplication. Application may 
misbehave.
Apr  7 15:53:06 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully activated service 
'org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper'
Apr  7 15:53:06 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully 
activated service 'org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper'
Apr  7 15:55:49 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Activating service 
name='org.freedesktop.PackageKit' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 15:55:49 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Activating 
service name='org.freedesktop.PackageKit' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 15:55:49 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully activated service 
'org.freedesktop.PackageKit'
Apr  7 15:55:49 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully 
activated service 'org.freedesktop.PackageKit'
Apr  7 16:01:13 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Activating service 
name='org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 16:01:13 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Activating 
service name='org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 16:01:13 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: no kernel backlight interface found
Apr  7 16:01:13 hestia org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper: QDBusConnection: 
system D-Bus connection created before QCoreApplication. Application may 
misbehave.
Apr  7 16:01:13 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully activated service 
'org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper'
Apr  7 16:01:13 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully 
activated service 'org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper'
Apr  7 16:01:49 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Activating service 
name='org.freedesktop.PackageKit' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 16:01:49 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Activating 
service name='org.freedesktop.PackageKit' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 16:01:49 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully activated service 
'org.freedesktop.PackageKit'
Apr  7 16:01:49 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully 
activated service 'org.freedesktop.PackageKit'
Apr  7 16:02:28 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Activating service 
name='org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 16:02:28 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Activating 
service name='org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 16:02:28 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: no kernel backlight interface found
Apr  7 16:02:28 hestia org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper: QDBusConnection: 
system D-Bus connection created before QCoreApplication. Application may 
misbehave.
Apr  7 16:02:28 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully activated service 
'org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper'
Apr  7 16:02:28 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Successfully 
activated service 'org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper'
Apr  7 16:03:42 hestia dbus[1024]: [system] Activating service 
name='org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 16:03:42 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: dbus[1024]: [system] Activating 
service name='org.kde.powerdevil.backlighthelper' (using servicehelper)
Apr  7 16:03:42 hestia dbus-daemon[1024]: no kernel backlight inter

Re: F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ranjan Maitra]

On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 15:24:22 +0800 Ed Greshko 
wrote:

> On 04/07/2012 03:01 PM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > Just updated to the latest kernel 3.3.1 and rebooted and tried to get
> > everything going but I get:
> >
> > $ ssh-add
> > Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.
> > $
> >
> > What is this supposed to mean? This is perhaps the first time I have
> > seen this error in almost 15 years on linux. How can I fix it?
> >
> > Of course, the kernel update may have nothing to do with it. I also
> > updated  kernel-headers, libtasn1 and taglib at the same time.
> >
> > Many thanks and best wishes,
> > Ranjan
> 
> It means /usr/bin/ssh-agent isn't running.

But why did it suddenly stop?

> 
> How are you logging in? 

The usual way: type password in lxdm. Is this what you were asking?

Many thanks,
Ranjan
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F16: Raid1 /home failing to restart cleanly

['Chris Hall']

I have a /home partition which is set up as a Software RAID1, using /dev/md0.

When I reboot the /dev/md0 fails to come up cleanly.  So far it has come back 
each time, but nearly every time it comes up with one of the two members of the 
RAID array missing.  I can mdadm /dev/md0 --re-add /dev/sdb3 -- and all is 
apparently well again.  But I have this partition as RAID for a reason, and it 
scares the bejazus out of me each time :-(

Any clues as to what spells I have failed to cast ?

Thanks,

Chris

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Fedora 16: dropping spontaneously into "Emergency Mode"

['Chris Hall']

Having recently installed Fedora 16, replacing Fedora 14, I am now plagued by 
the thing spontaneously falling into "Emergency Mode"... "Welcome to Emergency 
Mode" ha ha !

The last things in /var/log/messages are:

Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Job dev-sdb5.device/start timed out.
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Job local-fs.target/start failed with result 
'dependency'.
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Triggering OnFailure= dependencies of 
local-fs.target.
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Found ordering cycle on sysinit.target/stop
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Walked on cycle path to 
systemd-tmpfiles-clean.service/stop
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Walked on cycle path to 
systemd-tmpfiles-clean.timer/stop
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Walked on cycle path to sysinit.target/stop
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Breaking ordering cycle by deleting job 
systemd-tmpfiles-clean.timer/stop
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Job back\x2droot.mount/start failed with 
result 'dependency'.
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Job 
fsck@dev-disk-by\x2duuid-8f6c18e2\x2d4b0d\x2d4602\x2db084\x2d29639bd6e173.service/start
 failed with result 'dependency'.
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Job hestia.attic.mount/start failed with 
result 'dependency'.
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia systemd[1]: Job dev-sdb5.device/start failed with result 
'timeout'.
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia rsyslogd-2177: imuxsock lost 114 messages from pid 973 
due to rate-limiting
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia ntpd[973]: ntpd exiting on signal 15
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia kernel: Kernel logging (proc) stopped.
Apr  7 14:55:54 hestia rsyslogd: [origin software="rsyslogd" swVersion="5.8.7" 
x-pid="1022" x-info="http://www.rsyslog.com";] exiting on signal 15.

As it happens, /dev/sdb5 is a back-up partition... so is not in use most of the 
time... so (assuming this is the trigger for the system falling over) I don't 
know why it was suddenly felt to be essential to be able to start it... it is 
mounted when the system is booted.

The other suspicious character is ntpd to whom somebody has sent a SIGTERM and 
who appears to have sent a lot of "stuff" to the logging, which is nowhere to 
be seen :-(

Can anybody point be in the direction of what is going on here, and how I may 
be able to restore some stability to my Fedora 16 installation, which is 
currently falling over about once a day at random.

Thanks,

Chris

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 16:48, schrieb Sam Sharpe:
> On 7 April 2012 14:57, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>> really, as long you do not understand the headers in
>> a mail and the fact the no one needs multiple copies
>> of the same mails do not explain people "the normal way"
> 
> Scroll up a few messages. I've already stated that the problem was in
> the headers of the message Phillip originally sent, not in Fernando's
> reply as you stated. I therefore suggest that you don't understand
> mail headers either and are not in the best moral position to continue
> this argument.

this explains the additional @redhat.com address
but this does not explain all 3 RCPT

this is only the result of "reply all" which is (to say it clear)
completly idiotic on a mailing-list, so do not explain me in
what position i am if > 50% of messages from this list which
are a reply of a list-message are coming twice



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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 16:04, schrieb Mihamina Rakotomandimby:
> On 04/07/2012 04:50 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>>> it is not the job of my mail-client repair mistakes of others
>>
>> They are only mistakes in your mind. The normal way to reply is to use
>> reply all
> 
> Completely wrong.
> 
> - The normal way to "answer to all" is "reply all"
> - The normal way to answer on the list is "reply list" ("reply to list",... 
> depending on the software)
> - The normal way to answer in private is "reply to sender" (or equivalent)
> 
> "Replying to all" by default is a moron behaviour

thank you so much for showing me that i am not the
only one out there who understands how email works





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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Sam Sharpe]

On 7 April 2012 14:57, Reindl Harald  wrote:
> really, as long you do not understand the headers in
> a mail and the fact the no one needs multiple copies
> of the same mails do not explain people "the normal way"

Scroll up a few messages. I've already stated that the problem was in
the headers of the message Phillip originally sent, not in Fernando's
reply as you stated. I therefore suggest that you don't understand
mail headers either and are not in the best moral position to continue
this argument.

I further suggest this thread stops now, as you're wasting everyone's
bandwidth and bandwidth appears to be something you hold precious.
Whatever the merits of either side, none of this relates to Fedora so
perhaps it would be better taken off this list to some other venue.

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Re: Which one is the best, restore grub load or reinstall 64bit Fedora 16

[Aaron Konstam]

On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 21:09 +0800, yujian wrote: 
> Win7 and F16 are in two different partion.  But I do not have F16
> DVD,  I will try to use the grub4dos to load in the fedora system to
> resotre  grub
> 
> 
> 在 2012年4月6日 下午10:51，Aaron Konstam 写
> 道：
> On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 11:33 +0800, yujian wrote:
> 
> > My notebook is updated to 8G memory,  and I reinstall a
> Win7-64bits
> > system, so the grub info of F16 is lost.
> > Now I need to restore the grub load info of F16, or
> reinstall F16
> > 64-bits version.  I do not know how many difference of
> 32-bits and 64
> > bits of F16.
> 
> 
> Are you saying you installed Win7 into a partition that once
> had F16. If
> they are in different partitions than a grub-install should
> fix the
> problem. Or is it grub2-install. I don't have my F16 here so I
> am not
> sure.
> -- 
> 
> 
You can  get the F16 DVD from chewapbytes,com or OSdisk,com.


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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Mihamina Rakotomandimby]

On 04/07/2012 04:50 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:

it is not the job of my mail-client repair mistakes of others


They are only mistakes in your mind. The normal way to reply is to use
reply all



Completely wrong.

- The normal way to "answer to all" is "reply all"
- The normal way to answer on the list is "reply list" ("reply to 
list",... depending on the software)

- The normal way to answer in private is "reply to sender" (or equivalent)

"Replying to all" by default is a moron behaviour.
Sending explicitely a message to someone who doesnt want that is spam 
(although some mistakes are forgivable): If some want only to receive 
message from a mailing list, you should ask before talking in private 
(explicite "To:" or "Cc:).


You choose who to answer to, and you are responsible if you dont double 
check who are you replying to. And people are quite right to blame you 
if you hit the "send" button without being sure you have the correct 
recipients. That includes the fact you are blamable whan you use a 
screwed MUA.


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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 15:50, schrieb Bruno Wolff III:
>> it is not the job of my mail-client repair mistakes of others
> 
> They are only mistakes in your mind. The normal way to reply is to use reply
> all. This covers people who want to have their address in the recipient
> headers so they can treat the message specially and people who are not
> on the list. The mail-followup-to header is the way to say you want something
> different.

who told you so?

come on a discuss this on the postfix-list
wietse will explain you why there are mail-headers exists

really, as long you do not understand the headers in
a mail and the fact the no one needs multiple copies
of the same mails do not explain people "the normal way"

what you are speaking about is the normal way of OFFLIST-MAILS
so that everybody involved in a discussion has each reply
but damned htis here is a mailing-list

do you really not understand the difference?
well, let it be so, but do not people explain "the normal way"





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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 15:38:29 +0200,
  Reindl Harald  wrote:



Am 07.04.2012 15:24, schrieb Bruno Wolff III:

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:51:53 +0200,
  Reindl Harald  wrote:


but at least i am talking to everybody who is not
aware how to use a mailprogram - i can not verify
if you  are one of them because i do the work
removing duplicates in my mail-archive


If you don't want duplicate copies, you can set ypur mail client to
use a mail-followup-to header appropriately.


it is not the job of my mail-client repair mistakes of others


They are only mistakes in your mind. The normal way to reply is to use reply
all. This covers people who want to have their address in the recipient
headers so they can treat the message specially and people who are not
on the list. The mail-followup-to header is the way to say you want something
different.


You also have the option to configure the list setting for your
address to not send a copy to you if your subscribed address is
in a recipient header.


to not receive my own messages?


No. Mailman has a feature where it checks the list recipients against
the recipient headers of the message and can skip sending a message
to those that are in other headers (if that subscriber has enable that
feature) assuming that they will be sent a separate copy of the message.


not a very smater idea because my archive would not
contain my own messages, only the replies


You are confused about what the feature does. It has no effect on the
archives.
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 15:24, schrieb Bruno Wolff III:
> On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:51:53 +0200,
>   Reindl Harald  wrote:
>>
>> but at least i am talking to everybody who is not
>> aware how to use a mailprogram - i can not verify
>> if you  are one of them because i do the work
>> removing duplicates in my mail-archive
> 
> If you don't want duplicate copies, you can set ypur mail client to
> use a mail-followup-to header appropriately. 

it is not the job of my mail-client repair mistakes of others

> You also have the option to configure the list setting for your 
> address to not send a copy to you if your subscribed address is 
> in a recipient header.

to not receive my own messages?

not a very smater idea because my archive would not
contain my own messages, only the replies

however, not every social problem should be solved with tech
and not beeing able to look at the RCPT before press send
is clearly a social problem - there are people out there
got fired from their job becuase they were to stupid
for verify to whom they are sending a mail



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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:51:53 +0200,
  Reindl Harald  wrote:


but at least i am talking to everybody who is not
aware how to use a mailprogram - i can not verify
if you  are one of them because i do the work
removing duplicates in my mail-archive


If you don't want duplicate copies, you can set ypur mail client to
use a mail-followup-to header appropriately. You also have the option
to configure the list setting for your address to not send a copy
to you if your subscribed address is in a recipient header.
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Re: Which one is the best, restore grub load or reinstall 64bit Fedora 16

[yujian]

Win7 and F16 are in two different partion.  But I do not have F16 DVD,  I
will try to use the grub4dos to load in the fedora system to resotre  grub


在 2012年4月6日 下午10:51，Aaron Konstam 写道：

> On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 11:33 +0800, yujian wrote:
> > My notebook is updated to 8G memory,  and I reinstall a Win7-64bits
> > system, so the grub info of F16 is lost.
> > Now I need to restore the grub load info of F16, or reinstall F16
> > 64-bits version.  I do not know how many difference of 32-bits and 64
> > bits of F16.
>
> Are you saying you installed Win7 into a partition that once had F16. If
> they are in different partitions than a grub-install should fix the
> problem. Or is it grub2-install. I don't have my F16 here so I am not
> sure.
> --
> ===
> The fashion wears out more apparel than the man. -- William Shakespeare,
> "Much Ado About Nothing"
> ===
> Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net
>
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yum file\dir ownership couple of questions

[Frank Murphy]

as this is not specific to testing, asking here.

I want to use an /nfs/ mountpoint as the yum cache.
edit /etc/yum.conf done.

is it possible to yum update as named user, which is me.
with out having to do a su\sudo *1

I can chown -R root:user the cache /nfs/yum/$release/$arch,
or would user:root be more suitable?
for browsing\modifying  with file manager (Thunar),
or command line as user.
70/30% on the rl3/rl5 usage

There doesn't seem to be a group to join for yum\system updating,
root:root seems to own all yum* files\dirs.

Though, was under the impression apps, had to own all dirs they created
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#File_and_Directory_Ownership
I'm probably wrong if yum is a filesystem app.

How can a dir be co-owned?
Is this different to the usual root:something idea?

*1 Only for this yum idea.
Otherwise su\sudo is fine for other operations.
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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Frank Murphy]

On 07/04/12 11:43, Sam Sharpe wrote:

The fix for this is to disable the old list address and bounce it with
a message indicating the correct new list address, instead of
forwarding it on to the real list address. It's been a while since the
list hosting was moved, perhaps now it's worth severing the ties.



+1

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Sam Sharpe]

On 7 April 2012 10:25, Reindl Harald  wrote:
> Am 07.04.2012 11:13, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 08:20, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>>> would you PLEASE send replies only back to the
>>> list and ONLY to ONE incarnation of this list
>>> the first To and the Cc are useless
>>> in thunderbird you can even drag a "reoply to list"
>>> button to your icon-bar that can handle reply to
>>> mailing-lists for you
>>>
>>> Am 06.04.2012 13:07, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
>>
>> Are you talking to me?. I don´t use Thunderbird. I use Googl´s GMail
>> (AJAX) web based client.
>>
>> I hit the "reply" button. That´s all there is to do to reply to an
>> e-mail.

This reply is sent via Gmail, I simply hit the Reply button - you will
see that at this point the mail addresses I reply to are correct.

However some elementary investigation shows that Philip Rhoades sent
the message you originally replied on to fedora-l...@redhat.com, which
means when you got it, Phillip's and the real list address were in the
Reply-To header and fedora-l...@redhat.com was in the To header -
which is why when you replied, it came up with all three addresses.
That's not particularly bad mail client behaviour.

My diagnosis is therefore that the original fail was not yours,
although you could have trimmed those duplicate list addresses from
your reply. Whether you trim the additional personal recipient is a
matter of personal choice, because some people like their address in
the message so they can easily track replies to them. Some people
don't like this, whether due to childhood trauma or not.

It wasn't particularly difficult for me to diagnose this, without
resorting to ranting and name-calling, but then I do know a fair
amount about mail hosting.

The fix for this is to disable the old list address and bounce it with
a message indicating the correct new list address, instead of
forwarding it on to the real list address. It's been a while since the
list hosting was moved, perhaps now it's worth severing the ties.

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 11:13, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 08:20, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>> would you PLEASE send replies only back to the
>> list and ONLY to ONE incarnation of this list
>> the first To and the Cc are useless
>> in thunderbird you can even drag a "reoply to list"
>> button to your icon-bar that can handle reply to
>> mailing-lists for you
>>
>> Am 06.04.2012 13:07, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
> 
> Are you talking to me?. I don´t use Thunderbird. I use Googl´s GMail
> (AJAX) web based client.
> 
> I hit the "reply" button. That´s all there is to do to reply to an
> e-mail. 

and you are not able to remove the unneeded RCPT before send?
however i do not buy your argument becasue even reply-all will
not magically pull in "fedora-l...@redhat.com" as CC

To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Cc: fedora-l...@redhat.com

the @redhat.com does not exist in the mail-headers

> Any other issue, grievance, or annoyance you experience is
> either a result of an improperly configured mailing list

the mailing-list is well configured, see mail headers
so if you are using a broken mail-client replace it, write
a bugreport to google or at least cleanup RCPT before send

X-BeenThere: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Community support for Fedora users 

> early childhood psychological trauma on your side

seems you do not want to understand that this useless additional
mails are often resulting in offlist-replies from people like me
using the "reply-to-list" button which does not exist
in the useless personal copy - so your thughtless way of
use email is wasting time of others besides traffic and space



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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Fernando Cassia]

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 08:20, Reindl Harald  wrote:
> would you PLEASE send replies only back to the
> list and ONLY to ONE incarnation of this list
> the first To and the Cc are useless
> in thunderbird you can even drag a "reoply to list"
> button to your icon-bar that can handle reply to
> mailing-lists for you
>
> Am 06.04.2012 13:07, schrieb Fernando Cassia:

Are you talking to me?. I don´t use Thunderbird. I use Googl´s GMail
(AJAX) web based client.

I hit the "reply" button. That´s all there is to do to reply to an
e-mail. Any other issue, grievance, or annoyance you experience is
either a result of an improperly configured mailing list, email
client, or early childhood psychological trauma on your side.

Best regards,
FC

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Re: how to use a mailing-list

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.04.2012 05:02, schrieb Charles Zeitler:
> Do what thou wilt
> shall be the whole  of the Law.

not if you are generating thousands of mails
do what you will if it only affects you

oh, and after some verification i saw that
this is a childish "footer" on top

> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 6:20 AM, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>> would you PLEASE send replies only back to the
>> list and ONLY to ONE incarnation of this list
>>
> are _you_ talkin' to _me_ ?
> charles zeitler

not directly with this message where i quoted also
a name because if people start to send multiple messages
to the whole list fun is over

but at least i am talking to everybody who is not
aware how to use a mailprogram - i can not verify
if you  are one of them because i do the work
removing duplicates in my mail-archive
__

Am 06.04.2012 13:07, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
To: p...@pricom.com.au
To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Cc: fedora-l...@redhat.com



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Re: F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ed Greshko]

On 04/07/2012 03:01 PM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
> Dear friends,
>
> Just updated to the latest kernel 3.3.1 and rebooted and tried to get
> everything going but I get:
>
> $ ssh-add
> Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.
> $
>
> What is this supposed to mean? This is perhaps the first time I have
> seen this error in almost 15 years on linux. How can I fix it?
>
> Of course, the kernel update may have nothing to do with it. I also
> updated  kernel-headers, libtasn1 and taglib at the same time.
>
> Many thanks and best wishes,
> Ranjan

It means /usr/bin/ssh-agent isn't running.

How are you logging in? 

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F16: ssh-add: Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Ranjan Maitra]

Dear friends,

Just updated to the latest kernel 3.3.1 and rebooted and tried to get
everything going but I get:

$ ssh-add
Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.
$

What is this supposed to mean? This is perhaps the first time I have
seen this error in almost 15 years on linux. How can I fix it?

Of course, the kernel update may have nothing to do with it. I also
updated  kernel-headers, libtasn1 and taglib at the same time.

Many thanks and best wishes,
Ranjan
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