Re: humble suggestion to Fedora developers

[Gary Kline]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 11:09:49PM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 01/31/2013 08:13 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
> >I cannot understand why so many people were up in arms about the Gnome
> >desktop...or the Unity one.
> 
> Try watching somebody with Parkinson's try to use either of them and
> you'll understand.  Or, consider somebody like me who wants certain
> programs to be on certain workspaces and doesn't want to have go
> guess where the DE decided to put them.


I dont have Parkinson's, but my symptoms are pretty close.  [also,
I'm stable: Old Age will kill me].  still, I  loathe the
thin-red-line and the "thumb" that vvanishrd within seconds--before
I can grasp it.  I've forgotten how long it took me to un-hack the
gnome-crap and get back a std scrollbar.

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 Gary Kline  kl...@thought.org  http://www.thought.org  Public Service Unix
  Twenty-six years of service to the Unix community.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 09:52 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:

I know you could care less, but she sees your posts as being indirectly 
critical of her, her background, and her education.   I would tell you what she 
said, but it doesn't translate well into English.


Yes, I could care less.  I suspect that what you meant is "you couldn't 
care less."  As it is, I regret hearing that your wife feels that way; 
please assure her that some of us, at least, were only writing about 
native English speakers who mangle their own language.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 08:42 PM, Tim wrote:

The misuse of "loose" and "lose" bugs me the most, second is probably
"dose" instead of "does."  But seeing someone type in all-caps tends to
be far more annoying that someone posting in all-lower-case.


Let us not forget the people who can't be bothered to learn the 
difference between there, their and they're and simply use thier for all 
of them.


I've got a little list.
They never will be missed.
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Re: humble suggestion to Fedora developers

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 08:13 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:

I cannot understand why so many people were up in arms about the Gnome
desktop...or the Unity one.


Try watching somebody with Parkinson's try to use either of them and 
you'll understand.  Or, consider somebody like me who wants certain 
programs to be on certain workspaces and doesn't want to have go guess 
where the DE decided to put them.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 02/01/2013 01:44 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:


Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:

Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i'
instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension


well, that is your personal problem

in fact here in german speaking countries there are
way more words which are normally not written lowercase
at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email
and so on without a single uppercase letter


Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of 
writing you are using here, to be rude, disrespectful and childish - I 
am one of these.


Sure, it's tolerated in private SMS correspondence, but no so in written 
correspondence.


Ralf



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 13:38 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> I will probably ask my wife to start typing all of my queries and
> replies.  She is Chinese.  Chinese doesn't have upper/lower case.  As
> such, she often doesn't capitalize "correctly".   And, her grammar is
> probably not up to your standards. 

My comments are in no way directed at non-native English speakers. Most
of the examples I'm thinking of do not fall into this category. In fact
many non-native speakers seem to write more correct English than the
rest of us.

> This list is better off without the grammar, spelling, and style
> police.  If you can't figure out what someone is saying then "you"
> should not feel obliged to read it or answer it.

You seem to be taking this way too seriously.

poc

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Re: OT: Was -what's with the 'i'? Now = Get Real Please move this off list, it's boring.

[Roger]

On 02/01/2013 04:52 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 02/01/2013 01:38 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:

She is Chinese.  Chinese doesn't have upper/lower case.  As such, she often doesn't 
capitalize "correctly".   And, her grammar is probably not up to your standards.

Ooopsss...  My wife just hit me over the head  Of course she is Taiwanese.

She also wanted me to inform the public that her spelling is awful as well.  
And spell check doesn't always help her that much, with English not being her 
native language.

I know you could care less, but she sees your posts as being indirectly 
critical of her, her background, and her education.   I would tell you what she 
said, but it doesn't translate well into English.

Hey, let's now enter into a tangent about how to properly characterize 
someone's ethnic background.



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Ed Greshko]

On 02/01/2013 01:38 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> She is Chinese.  Chinese doesn't have upper/lower case.  As such, she often 
> doesn't capitalize "correctly".   And, her grammar is probably not up to your 
> standards.

Ooopsss...  My wife just hit me over the head  Of course she is Taiwanese. 

She also wanted me to inform the public that her spelling is awful as well.  
And spell check doesn't always help her that much, with English not being her 
native language.

I know you could care less, but she sees your posts as being indirectly 
critical of her, her background, and her education.   I would tell you what she 
said, but it doesn't translate well into English.

Hey, let's now enter into a tangent about how to properly characterize 
someone's ethnic background.

-- 
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger 
and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and 
better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, The Wizardry 
Compiled
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 16:07 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> My copy of this is back in the mid-90s:
> 
> Vy  Knot?

George Bernard Shaw left money in his will to promote the
rationalization of English spelling, but to no avail. One of his
well-known examples was the word ghoti:

gh as in enough
o as in women
ti as in station

giving us the pronunciation "fish".

Rules of grammar and spelling are about convention, not logic. Breaking
the convention makes things harder to understand. That's really my only
point.

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Ed Greshko]

On 02/01/2013 01:24 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 08:50 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> Besides, haven't you indicated that people should trim posts so as not
>> to waste bandwidth?  Do you really think this thread is worthy of the
>> bandwidth and the disk space it is taking up?
> As I've said, it's clearly OT so no-one should feel obliged to read it.
> Quoting long messages without trimming in a reply to an on-topic thread
> is an entirely different thing.
>

It still gets sent over the network, and it still takes up disk space.  And it 
is petty. 

I will probably ask my wife to start typing all of my queries and replies.  She 
is Chinese.  Chinese doesn't have upper/lower case.  As such, she often doesn't 
capitalize "correctly".   And, her grammar is probably not up to your 
standards. 

This list is better off without the grammar, spelling, and style police.  If 
you can't figure out what someone is saying then "you" should not feel obliged 
to read it or answer it.

-- 
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger 
and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and 
better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, The Wizardry 
Compiled
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 15:12 +1030, Tim wrote:
> The misuse of "loose" and "lose" bugs me the most, second is probably
> "dose" instead of "does."

I'm with you there. Also the confusion between "choose" and "chose".

> But seeing someone type in all-caps tends to
> be far more annoying that someone posting in all-lower-case.

Indeed, but at least the ALL CAPS transgression is widely recognized and
condemned. There's no controversy about it as far as I'm aware.

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 08:50 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> Besides, haven't you indicated that people should trim posts so as not
> to waste bandwidth?  Do you really think this thread is worthy of the
> bandwidth and the disk space it is taking up?

As I've said, it's clearly OT so no-one should feel obliged to read it.
Quoting long messages without trimming in a reply to an on-topic thread
is an entirely different thing.

poc

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Re: Need Help - .CD/DVD ROM Drive Not Seen By OS.....

[Ed Greshko]

On 02/01/2013 11:23 AM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
> I know this is a Fedora-oriented community mailing list, but seeing as how I 
> don't have "access" to another distro's "support network" I figured I would 
> ask here and hope for the best. Here's the scenario:
>
> I recently downloaded and burned to DVD the .iso file for a certain Linux 
> distro, and everything checked out fine in regards to the download / 
> burn-copy process. But when I insert the CD into another laptop to install 
> this distro onto that laptops's hard drive I get to the main installation 
> menu, which offers me the option to install using the Command Line or the 
> GUI. I chose the GUI (since I suck at the comand line...for NOW!) and the 
> first selection after I chose the GUI is to choose my language, then to set 
> the keyboard, but immediately after those it asks me to select the type of CD 
> drive (SCSI or "Other") I have gone through the ENTIRE list of offerings in 
> those lists but it doesn't recognize ANY of them.can someone please tell 
> me what the proper procedure is to get me past this point?the laptop in 
> question is a Lenovo T-420 with 4 GB of memory..a 320 HDD...and an internal / 
> modular CD-ROM drive 

name the distro in question. 

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and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and 
better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, The Wizardry 
Compiled

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 31 January 2013, Patrick O'Callaghan sent:
> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> "i",

Any of - they don't know better, they don't care in the first place,
they don't care about correcting typing errors, they didn't notice,
they're typing one-handed, they're so used to spelling correctors
auto-correcting their typing for them...

The misuse of "loose" and "lose" bugs me the most, second is probably
"dose" instead of "does."  But seeing someone type in all-caps tends to
be far more annoying that someone posting in all-lower-case.

Usually I gloss over the occasional one, but some messages require an
awful lot of interpretation trying to figure out what they meant, thanks
to their complete lack of structure.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.6.11-5.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Jan 8 21:40:51 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 31 January 2013, Craig White sent:
> better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by
> SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger
> generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules.
> 
> Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA. 

Of course, one can have their revenge by using proper language when
talking to / writing to these youngsters, and make them equally flumuxed
when trying to understand what you've written.  ;-)

I say that, mainly, in jest.  But it's been my experience with some
modern teenagers, that their grasp of language is rather poor.  Never
mind the written word, even the odd three-syllable word in spoken
language, with nothing much more unusual than the words being used in
this email, from you and I, gets blank stares and needs explaining and
rewording.

And why might that be?  Because reading and writing, more specifically
being taught both of them, fell out of fashion.  I don't mean something
heavy like learning Shakespeare by heart, or latin, just plain old
ordinary language of the current day.  Some of the year 12's work, that
I looked at, bordered on remedial primary school.  In just about all
ways; length, grammar, punctuation, and very immature language.  If they
spent anything more than about five minutes on it, I'd be really
appalled.

While you might call it "grammar snobbery," it does them no favour when
they can't read or right well enough to apply for a job and keep it.
Some even can't follow the instructions for applying to the job.  Which
relates to a second failing of our current education system, thinking
that you don't actually having to do what you're told to do.  And you
can see the follow-through of that in various ways, thinking that the
road rules and laws of the land are something that other people have to
adhere to.


-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.6.11-5.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Jan 8 21:40:51 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.]

On 01/31/2013 04:07 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:


On 01/31/2013 03:38 PM, Craig White wrote:

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:55 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.

Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
off my chest. Feel free to ignore.


better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by
SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger
generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules.

Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA.


My copy of this is back in the mid-90s:

   Vy  Knot?


Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the
European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways
of improving efficiency in communications between Government
departments.

European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is
unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough,
through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme
of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of
course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by
participating nations.

In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's'
instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities
would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced
by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this
klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters
kould be made with one less letter.

There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was
announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'.
This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty persent shorter in print.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be
expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are
possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double leters
whish have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al
agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful.
Therefor we kould drop them and kontinu to read and writ as though
nothing had hapend.

By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would
be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'.  Perhaps zen ze
funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a
'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from vords
kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer
kombinations of leters.  Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud
eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no
mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud find it ezi tu understand ech
ozer. Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru.






OMG!...this is HILARIOUS!>I LOVE it!...LoL!


EGO II
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Re: F17, audacity recording what you hear

[Tim]

Claude Jones:
>> It's hard to say what your problem is because "sounds like a tin can" is 
>> not very helpful - you say it's not clipping and that the levels are OK. 

Frank Elsner:
> Maybe translate.google.com has failed for my german :-(
> 
> The sound is like the sound of bery old telephones.

If you want people to know exactly what it sounds like, and maybe help
with diagnosis, upload a small sound file somewhere.

It could well be that one of your computers has a bad sound card.  My
laptop has a next-to-useless one, as far as inputting audio goes.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.6.11-5.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Jan 8 21:40:51 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.



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Re: humble suggestion to Fedora developers

[Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.]

On 01/31/2013 04:00 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 01/31/2013 12:09 PM, Craig White wrote:

these meta discussions seem only to highlight the things one doesn't
know about the other. I use both Fedora and Ubuntu.


I use Fedora only and migrated to Xfce to avoid having to use Gnome 3. 
My older sister uses Ubuntu, with me for (literally) in-house tech 
support.  After a year fighting Unity on her desktop, she had me talk 
her through installing and switching to Xfce.  (Parkinson's and 
itty-bitty precise mouse movements don't mix!)  Now, she's asking me 
to download the .iso for the latest Xubuntu so she can have the 
computer guru at her school replace the Ubuntu on her netbook for the 
same reason.  (I don't mind her doing it that way; they're getting 
paid for it.)


Given the choice, I prefer Fedora for myself, but if somebody just 
wants to get away from Windows, I'll always point them to Ubuntu 
because it's designed for "Windows refugees" and Just Works.  Now, 
however, I suggest that they try Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu, 
installing whichever one they like best.  (Unity isn't exactly for 
everybody!)  When I first ran across Unix, I complained that the 
biggest problem it had was that when you asked how to do something, 
the answer had to start with, "That depends."  Now I realize that the 
freedom to decide for yourself which distro, which shell, which DE you 
use is its greatest asset, especially when you compare it to 
Microsoft's One Size Fits Nobody.


Well I would say that for each person there's a distro & a DE that suits 
them. I "abandoned" Windows when I finally hit the "wall" of 
fuster-clucks(imagine the Exchange server literally HANGING in the 
middle of shutting down ex-employee email exchange accounts?.now 
imagine the CTO walks in...and asks YOU what the heck is going on!) In 
that instant I knew I had to "find" something else. Apple was (and to me 
still IS!) way too expensive for practical and economic people who are 
looking to save their pennies. Which left me with Linux, and I have 
never had a problem with the Gnome desktop.nor the Unity one. If 
anything Unity to me anyway...is easier to use than Windows! I cannot 
understand why so many people were up in arms about the Gnome 
desktop...or the Unity one...I always thought Linux was for "freedom of 
choice" if you didn't like a certain 
desktop...download.install...and use a DIFFERENT one! It's not that 
hard...remember..those programmers and developers who work hard at 
even MAKING some of the things we take for granted?.have feelings 
too...and I don't think its fair to CONSTANTLY slam them for trying to 
be different, bold, daring, and anything but plain "vanilla"!...but hey 
that's just me!...



EGO II
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Problem with nvidia driver for latest f17 kernel

[Michael Hannon]

Greetings.  It appears that I don't have an nvidia kernel module for the
latest kernel for f17.  Please see the appended for some details about my
system.

The system boots fine into run-level 3 with the latest kernel, but it hangs
"forever" when I try to boot into run-level 5.

Fortunately, the system also boots fine into run-level 5 with the penultimate
kernel, which I'm using at the moment.

I installed the *kmod-nvidia stuff shortly after f17 appeared, and I've been
happily sleep-walking through kernel updates ever since.  Now I've been rudely
awakened.

I've rebooted the system several times, on the theory that one of the *kmod
packages would "notice" the version mismatch and compile a new module.  That
hasn't happened so far.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious.  Any comments?  Thanks.

-- Mike


# cat /proc/version 
Linux version 3.6.11-5.fc17.x86_64
(mockbu...@bkernel01.phx2.fedoraproject.org) (gcc version 4.7.2 20120921 (Red
Hat 4.7.2-2) (GCC) ) #1 SMP Tue Jan 8 21:40:51 UTC 2013

# /sbin/lspci | grep VGA
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation GF116 [GeForce GTX 550
Ti] (rev a1)

# rpm -qa | grep -i nvidia
xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-304.64-3.fc17.x86_64
nvidia-xconfig-1.0-20.fc17.x86_64
xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-libs-304.64-3.fc17.x86_64
kmod-nvidia-3.6.11-1.fc17.x86_64-304.64-1.fc17.6.x86_64
nvidia-settings-1.0-22.fc17.x86_64
akmod-nvidia-304.64-1.fc17.x86_64
kmod-nvidia-3.6.11-5.fc17.x86_64-304.64-1.fc17.7.x86_64

latest installed kernel = vmlinuz-3.7.3-101.fc17.x86_64
kernel currently in use = vmlinuz-3.6.11-5.fc17.x86_64
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Need Help - .CD/DVD ROM Drive Not Seen By OS.....

[Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.]

I know this is a Fedora-oriented community mailing list, but seeing as 
how I don't have "access" to another distro's "support network" I 
figured I would ask here and hope for the best. Here's the scenario:


I recently downloaded and burned to DVD the .iso file for a certain 
Linux distro, and everything checked out fine in regards to the download 
/ burn-copy process. But when I insert the CD into another laptop to 
install this distro onto that laptops's hard drive I get to the main 
installation menu, which offers me the option to install using the 
Command Line or the GUI. I chose the GUI (since I suck at the comand 
line...for NOW!) and the first selection after I chose the GUI is to 
choose my language, then to set the keyboard, but immediately after 
those it asks me to select the type of CD drive (SCSI or "Other") I have 
gone through the ENTIRE list of offerings in those lists but it doesn't 
recognize ANY of them.can someone please tell me what the proper 
procedure is to get me past this point?the laptop in question is a 
Lenovo T-420 with 4 GB of memory..a 320 HDD...and an internal / modular 
CD-ROM drive


Thanks...


EGO II
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Re: OT Web servers and ISP -and Rails

[Roger]

Thanks Phil

I have run into a gotcha with the ISP which will not provide  Rails 3 on
a shared server.
Can someone please enlighten me as to why not. What are the problems?

Apologies for OT but google so far doesn't help.

I had a similar situation & I just started using vps instead.

I think most ISPs are still using Rails 2 because they see no need to
upgrade & are also wary of the swiftness of the Rails/Ruby releases.
Plus there is no definitive Rails 3 per se to speak of.

So, your only choice is to go with either a dedicated server, a
vps/cloud solution or a specialist Rails outfit. VPS/cloud is by far the
cheapest & most flexible IMO & works for me.

Cheers,

   Phil...

I would tend to agree that there is no definitive rails 3. Each, even 
minor change, virtually wrecks some part of previous coding and now they 
recommend preparing for Rails 4 which will trash some Rails 3 coding.

Not happy Jan! Be great if the devs got something working and left it alone.
Is Rails 2 safe enough to rely on?

On the subject of Dedicated or VPS, I found Ventra-ip which provides 
Rails on shared server and today is releasing pricing on Dedicated and 
VPS. Prices are w-a-y below AussieHQ, Uber and others.

I've seen no reports of problems with them. Has anyone o list used Ventra?


Strange thing with Fedora 18.
Apache  or rather localhost:3000 works a treat with Rails but Drupal 7 
on localhost/devsystem collapses when trying to install a live site 
copy. Mysql in Fedora 18 shuts down while building the database from an 
.sql file.  Pig of a thing.



Roger
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 05:41:58PM -0800, Gary Kline wrote:
> my first/last two pennies: "very early on", typesetters had
> difficulty telling the difference between "i" and "j" since
> manuscripts were written in longhand.
> 
> I heard this in grade school, tho, so it may have been made up
> to keep students quiet.


http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/7986/why-should-the-first-person-pronoun-i-always-be-capitalized

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Gary Kline]

On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 12:37:47AM +0100, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
> Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> > Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> > "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1)
> > their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet
> > e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
> > minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
> > expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
> > teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
> > want to know.
> 
> Speaking of that, I never understood why is the "I" capitalized in
> English?


my first/last two pennies: "very early on", typesetters had
difficulty telling the difference between "i" and "j" since
manuscripts were written in longhand.

I heard this in grade school, tho, so it may have been made up
to keep students quiet.




> Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the "I"? ;-)
> 
> To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes
> this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very
> explicit that the "I" should always be capitalized, none of them has
> ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so.
> 
> While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking
> care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the
> completely "randomized" spelling rules in English language. Or rather
> the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those
> rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read
> and write.
> 
> For example, the concept of "spelling competitions" in elementary
> schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English
> schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell
> words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not
> considered to be a skill worth competing over.
> 
> But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent
> spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D
> 
> And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the
> proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-)
> 
> Best, :-)
> Marko
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
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  Twenty-six years of service to the Unix community.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 08:50:09 +0800
Ed Greshko  wrote:

> On 02/01/2013 08:28 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > As far as I'm aware, this is the only time the subject has come up
> > in all the years I've been on this list. And I clearly flagged it
> > as OT, so don't feel you need to read it.
> 
> I've always felt the OT was meant to indicate a computer related
> question which may not directly relate to Fedora.  I didn't think it
> was a catch all to be used to start a discussion on one's personal
> pet peeves.

Well, technically, the OP might argue that this topic is related to the
netiquette of the mailing list postings in general, etc., and therefore
in an OT-way still related to this mailing list...

But I think it's just "that time of the month", so to speak. ;-) We
didn't have the regular king-sized-off-topic-troll-party-thread for
quite some time now, so it is only natural that one such appears sooner
than later. Actually, AFAIK this is the very first such thread in 2013,
so I feel kind of enthusiastic about it... :-D

Best, :-)
Marko

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Doug]

On 01/31/2013 07:12 PM, Mark LaPierre wrote:

On 01/31/2013 10:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:




Another irritating colloquial "figure of speech" is the use of the 
word "and" in place of the word "to" in association with the word "try".


Example, I will try and work that out.

Is the speaker going to try that out, or is the speaker going to work 
that out, or is the speaker planning on both?  What I assume is the 
speaker meant that the speaker will try to work that out.



Are you perhaps familiar with the word "idiom?"

--doug
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Ed Greshko]

On 02/01/2013 08:28 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> As far as I'm aware, this is the only time the subject has come up in
> all the years I've been on this list. And I clearly flagged it as OT, so
> don't feel you need to read it.

I've always felt the OT was meant to indicate a computer related question which 
may not directly relate to Fedora.  I didn't think it was a catch all to be 
used to start a discussion on one's personal pet peeves.

Heck, if your post is to be encourage then why not start post about "gun 
rights" or "Tibet" or   pick your poison.   Just as the follow-on has shown 
the tangents to be endless and the opinions to be endless and .

Besides, haven't you indicated that people should trim posts so as not to waste 
bandwidth?  Do you really think this thread is worthy of the bandwidth and the 
disk space it is taking up?

-- 
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger 
and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and 
better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, The Wizardry 
Compiled
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Reindl Harald]

Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
> Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
> word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' 
> instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension

well, that is your personal problem

in fact here in german speaking countries there are
way more words which are normally not written lowercase
at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email
and so on without a single uppercase letter



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 13:44 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:07 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
> > > On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
> > > Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Way way OT:
> > >>
> > >> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> > >> "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when
> > >> 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken,
> > > Could be various reasons.
> > > It's a multi-cultural list.
> > > English as 2nd or 3rd language.
> > > users may not have a western-style keyboard.
> > > Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters)
> > 
> > I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher.
> 
> my oldest brother is probably the smartest person I know - and he was
> dyslexic too. He is also a graduate chemical engineer, former union
> organizer, economics professor (masters degree) and it's obvious that
> while spelling and grammar checkers are a must for people with these
> problems, the truth is that it's about effective communication and I
> don't have much patience for those who want to insist on rules of
> communication rather than just appreciate the communication.

If it were either/or, I would agree with you, but that's a straw man and
a false dichotomy. With the exception of dyslexics (who AFAIK tend to be
of above-average intelligence), it's not a question of either you
communicate effectively or you follow grammar rules. Grammar rules exist
in order to make communication more effective by reducing the amount of
cognitive dissonance.  Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' instead of 'I', it
interrupts my train of comprehension, even for a a few milliseconds.
What's good about that?

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 16:44 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 23:27 +, David G.Miller wrote:
> > Joe Zeff  zeff.us> writes:
> > 
> > > 
> > > On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote:
> > > > I'd think it's the coolness thing.
> > > 
> > > What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?
> > I just go with these are the same people who aren't intelligent enough to
> > operate a baseball cap so they end up wearing it backwards.
> 
> anyone who rides a motorcycle needs no explanation of why wearing a
> baseball cap backwards is a good thing.
> 
> The endless meta chatter on this topic is rather pointless.

As far as I'm aware, this is the only time the subject has come up in
all the years I've been on this list. And I clearly flagged it as OT, so
don't feel you need to read it.

> If the point of the OP was to make non-native English speakers
> uncomfortable so they won't post for fear of being attacked, then we
> really don't need to support that effort.

Well, since the predicate doesn't apply, we can safely ignore the
conclusion. And several of the most visible proponents do not appear to
be non-native English speakers.

poc

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Setting a background image

[Tethys]

How can I set a background image now that xsri is now longer being
distributed with Fedora? I couldn't see anything in the release notes
about it being dropped or about a suitable replacement. For the time
being, I'm using "xv -rmode 1", but clearly that's not the approved
solution, since it's not free software and hence can't be distributed
with Fedora.

Tet

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Dan Thurman]

On 01/31/2013 07:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Way way OT:
>
> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
> not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
> Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
> cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
> minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
> expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
> teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
> want to know.
>
> Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
> off my chest. Feel free to ignore.
>
> poc
Maybe Apple started it? ;)
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Mark LaPierre]

On 01/31/2013 10:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.

Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
off my chest. Feel free to ignore.

poc



Another irritating colloquial "figure of speech" is the use of the word 
"and" in place of the word "to" in association with the word "try".


Example, I will try and work that out.

Is the speaker going to try that out, or is the speaker going to work 
that out, or is the speaker planning on both?  What I assume is the 
speaker meant that the speaker will try to work that out.


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_
   °v°
  /(_)\
   ^ ^  Mark LaPierre
Registered Linux user No #267004
https://linuxcounter.net/

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Re: WiFi permanently disappeared after booting test kernel [SOLVED]

[Mike Fleetwood]

On 31 January 2013 23:34, Ed Greshko  wrote:
> On 02/01/2013 06:19 AM, Mike Fleetwood wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On my netbook I booted a test kernel 3.8.0-rc4+ I compiled.  Now after
>> booting back into my regular Fedora kernel 3.6.11-5.fc17.i686.PAE my
>> wifi network device remains permanently disappeared.  No wifi networks
>> displayed in Network Manager gui.  Also the Network Manager syslog
>> messages make it look like the device has completely disappeared.
>>
>> Suggestions for restoring wifi welcome.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> Fragment of Network Manager syslog messages when working before
>> --8<--
>>
>> Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  WiFi enabled by radio
>> killswitch; enabled by state file
>>
>>
>> Fragment of Network Manager syslog messages when broken after
>> --8<--
>>
>> Jan 28 18:43:26 edge NetworkManager[466]:  WiFi disabled by
>> radio killswitch; enabled by state file
>
> yum install rfkill
>
> Then provide the output of "rfkill list"

Solved now.  Bit of a brown paper bag moment.  I must have unknowingly
disabled wifi, but exactly when I was testing that kernel.

Fixed by:
# yum install rfkill
# rfkill list all
0: eeepc-wlan: Wireless LAN
Soft blocked: yes   <-- HERE
Hard blocked: no
...
# rfkill unblock all
(Or press [Fn][F2]).

I was just a bit dismayed to see that software blocking wifi removes
the wifi device line from the output of lspci:
01:00.0 Network controller: Atheros Communications Inc. AR928X
Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) (rev 01)

Thanks,
Mike
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Bill Oliver]

The reason I was taught was the transition from the Old English equivalent 
"ich."   When the word dropped from three letters to one letter, it was 
capitalized to point out that it was a separate word rather than a typographical error.  
This doesn't make a lot of sense in modern typography, but I can see where that might be 
the case in hand-written scripts, sort of like the ampersand.

Here's a reference that says the same thing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03wwln-guestsafire-t.html?_r=0

billo

On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Marko Vojinovic wrote:


On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
"i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1)
their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet
e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.


Speaking of that, I never understood why is the "I" capitalized in
English?

Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the "I"? ;-)

To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes
this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very
explicit that the "I" should always be capitalized, none of them has
ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so.

While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking
care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the
completely "randomized" spelling rules in English language. Or rather
the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those
rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read
and write.

For example, the concept of "spelling competitions" in elementary
schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English
schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell
words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not
considered to be a skill worth competing over.

But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent
spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D

And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the
proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-)

Best, :-)
Marko



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 23:27 +, David G.Miller wrote:
> Joe Zeff  zeff.us> writes:
> 
> > 
> > On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote:
> > > I'd think it's the coolness thing.
> > 
> > What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?
> I just go with these are the same people who aren't intelligent enough to
> operate a baseball cap so they end up wearing it backwards.

anyone who rides a motorcycle needs no explanation of why wearing a
baseball cap backwards is a good thing.

The endless meta chatter on this topic is rather pointless.

If the point of the OP was to make non-native English speakers
uncomfortable so they won't post for fear of being attacked, then we
really don't need to support that effort.

Craig


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1)
> their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet
> e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
> minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
> expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
> teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
> want to know.

Speaking of that, I never understood why is the "I" capitalized in
English?

Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the "I"? ;-)

To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes
this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very
explicit that the "I" should always be capitalized, none of them has
ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so.

While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking
care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the
completely "randomized" spelling rules in English language. Or rather
the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those
rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read
and write.

For example, the concept of "spelling competitions" in elementary
schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English
schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell
words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not
considered to be a skill worth competing over.

But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent
spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D

And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the
proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-)

Best, :-)
Marko



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Re: WiFi permanently disappeared after booting test kernel

[Ed Greshko]

On 02/01/2013 06:19 AM, Mike Fleetwood wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On my netbook I booted a test kernel 3.8.0-rc4+ I compiled.  Now after
> booting back into my regular Fedora kernel 3.6.11-5.fc17.i686.PAE my
> wifi network device remains permanently disappeared.  No wifi networks
> displayed in Network Manager gui.  Also the Network Manager syslog
> messages make it look like the device has completely disappeared.
>
> Suggestions for restoring wifi welcome.
>
> Thanks
> Mike
>
>
> Fragment of Network Manager syslog messages when working before
> --8<--
>
> Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  WiFi enabled by radio
> killswitch; enabled by state file
>
>
> Fragment of Network Manager syslog messages when broken after
> --8<--
>
> Jan 28 18:43:26 edge NetworkManager[466]:  WiFi disabled by
> radio killswitch; enabled by state file

yum install rfkill

Then provide the output of "rfkill list"



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and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and 
better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, The Wizardry 
Compiled
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[David G . Miller]

Joe Zeff  zeff.us> writes:

> 
> On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote:
> > I'd think it's the coolness thing.
> 
> What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?
I just go with these are the same people who aren't intelligent enough to
operate a baseball cap so they end up wearing it backwards.

(Not original.  Don't recall who the comedian was that used this in a 
monologue).

Cheers,
Dave



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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Reindl Harald]

Am 01.02.2013 00:02, schrieb Dave Stevens:

>> so why not "yum install icedtea-web" which is the java-plugin
> 
> well, that's two suggestions I can try. Thank-you. Do you know why the Fedora 
> packagers, knowing java is very
> likely to be needed, wouldn't just package that?

uhm?

java-1.7.0-openjdk-1.7.0.9-2.3.4.fc18.x86_64

openjdk is the java7 REFERENCE IMPLEMENTATION and in the repos
icedtea-web is the java browser-plugin and in the repos



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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:04 -0800, Dave Stevens wrote:
> Quoting Craig White :
> 
> > On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 13:02 -0800, Dave Stevens wrote:
> >> Quoting Reindl Harald :
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Am 31.01.2013 20:53, schrieb Jan Litwiński:
> >> >> Dnia 2013-01-31, o godz. 10:25:00
> >> >> Dave Stevens  napisał(a):
> >> >>
> >> >>> I tried to install Java in Firefox and after the download I get an
> >> >>> error saying the package is unsigned and installation halts. Have
> >> >>> got the same response with another widely used package. Using the
> >> >>> x86_64 live spin. What to do?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Dave
> >> >>>
> >> >> try yum localinstall javapackage
> >> >
> >> > not a smart idea - usually ANY fedora package is signed
> >> >
> >> > missing signatures should be a WARNING SINGAL and not
> >> > ignored like trained monkeys confirm any SSL warning
> >> > in a webbrowser
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> it isn't a fedora package. I wanted to used a js app in firefox and it
> >> needed the plugin and went looking for one. the download came from
> >> Oracle. I have some criticisms of Oracle as a firm but I suppose they
> >> can be trusted to that extent. Anyway I'll try that suggestion when I
> >> get back to that computer.
> > 
> > just an fyi...
> >
> > There are many who suggest that even the very latest java update doesn't
> > fix the security issues with the browser plug-in and pretty much
> > everyone and his brother recommend disabling the plug-in right now
> > (Apple did it for you with their last OSX update). It's become a real
> > security nightmare. Don't say you weren't warned and this security issue
> > is even more serious than not having a signed package.
> >
> > Craig
> 
> yes, thanks, I've been following the news. I've got a facility I use  
> in virtualmin that needs java, what would I do for a replacement?

the file manager? That's pretty long in the tooth anyway.

I'm not suggesting anything other than the obvious... if the plugin is
installed and active, it may be enough to lose control of your system
and the advice is clear... disable.

Craig


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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Dave Stevens]

Quoting Craig White :


On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 13:02 -0800, Dave Stevens wrote:

Quoting Reindl Harald :

>
>
> Am 31.01.2013 20:53, schrieb Jan Litwiński:
>> Dnia 2013-01-31, o godz. 10:25:00
>> Dave Stevens  napisał(a):
>>
>>> I tried to install Java in Firefox and after the download I get an
>>> error saying the package is unsigned and installation halts. Have
>>> got the same response with another widely used package. Using the
>>> x86_64 live spin. What to do?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>> try yum localinstall javapackage
>
> not a smart idea - usually ANY fedora package is signed
>
> missing signatures should be a WARNING SINGAL and not
> ignored like trained monkeys confirm any SSL warning
> in a webbrowser
>
>

it isn't a fedora package. I wanted to used a js app in firefox and it
needed the plugin and went looking for one. the download came from
Oracle. I have some criticisms of Oracle as a firm but I suppose they
can be trusted to that extent. Anyway I'll try that suggestion when I
get back to that computer.


just an fyi...

There are many who suggest that even the very latest java update doesn't
fix the security issues with the browser plug-in and pretty much
everyone and his brother recommend disabling the plug-in right now
(Apple did it for you with their last OSX update). It's become a real
security nightmare. Don't say you weren't warned and this security issue
is even more serious than not having a signed package.

Craig


yes, thanks, I've been following the news. I've got a facility I use  
in virtualmin that needs java, what would I do for a replacement?




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If all the advertising in the world were to shut down tomorrow, would people
still go on buying more soap, eating more apples, giving their children more
vitamins, roughage, milk, olive oil, scooters and laxatives, learning more
languages by iPod, hearing more virtuosos by radio, re-decorating their
houses, refreshing themselves with more non-alcoholic thirst-quenchers,
cooking more new, appetizing dishes, affording themselves that little extra
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--- Dorothy L Sayers, in Murder Must Advertise

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Re: F18 : from iptables to firewalld

[Ranjan Maitra]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 23:45:07 +0100 Reindl Harald
 wrote:

> 
> 
> Am 31.01.2013 22:04, schrieb Ranjan Maitra:
> > Jan 31 15:01:35 localhost systemd[1]: Failed to start
> > firewalld - dynamic firewall daemon. 
> > Jan 31 15:01:35 localhost systemd
> > [1]: Unit firewalld.service entered failed state 
> > Jan 31 15:01:36 localhost setroubleshoot: SELinux is
> > preventing /usr/bin/python2.7 from getattr access on the
> > file /run/firewalld.pid. For complete SELinux messages. run sealert -l
> > 6da93ecc-b84a-4d14-bc3f-0f8d06af82a2 Jan 31 15:01:37 localhost
> > setroubleshoot: SELinux is preventing /usr/bin/python2.7 from write
> > access on the file firewalld.pid. For complete SELinux messages. run
> > sealert -l d6eea039-e995-4e5e-a6f3-57048fc05bae 
> > Jan 31 15:01:37 localhost
> > setroubleshoot: SELinux is preventing /usr/bin/python2.7 from unlink
> > access on the file firewalld.pid. For complete SELinux messages. run
> > sealert -l 689b4650-7ccb-4ca7-a2db-2ec6c5f18b6f
> > 
> > Not sure what to do with all this
> 
> write a bugreport why this new shiny thing is broken by
> SElinux and realize that such things are the reason why
> i said "reboot blidnly" is a terrible idea

Bug report against firewalld?

> AND START IPATBLES AGAIN BEVAUSE YOU ARE WIDE OPEN NOW

Thanks, started it.

Ranjan
 
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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Dave Stevens]

Quoting Reindl Harald :




Am 31.01.2013 22:02, schrieb Dave Stevens:

Quoting Reindl Harald :




Am 31.01.2013 20:53, schrieb Jan Litwiński:

Dnia 2013-01-31, o godz. 10:25:00
Dave Stevens  napisał(a):


I tried to install Java in Firefox and after the download I get an
error saying the package is unsigned and installation halts. Have
got the same response with another widely used package. Using the
x86_64 live spin. What to do?

Dave


try yum localinstall javapackage


not a smart idea - usually ANY fedora package is signed

missing signatures should be a WARNING SINGAL and not
ignored like trained monkeys confirm any SSL warning
in a webbrowser



it isn't a fedora package. I wanted to used a js app in firefox and  
it needed the plugin


then it is not a js app
javascript != java


and went looking for one. the download came from Oracle


so why not "yum install icedtea-web" which is the java-plugin


well, that's two suggestions I can try. Thank-you. Do you know why the  
Fedora packagers, knowing java is very likely to be needed, wouldn't  
just package that?


Dave


[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ yum search java web plug-in
Geladene Plugins: etckeeper, langpacks, presto, protectbase
rhsoft-fedora 
| 2.9 kB  00:00:00 !!!
rhsoft-generic
| 2.9 kB  00:00:00

0 packages excluded due to repository protections
=== N/S Matched: java, web, plug-in  


icedtea-web.x86_64 : Java browser plug-in and Web Start implementation


I have some criticisms of Oracle as a firm but I suppose they can be
trusted to that extent. Anyway I'll try that suggestion when I get back
to that computer


trusting in context of a unsigned package? uhm
each third party repo installs it's GPG key with the release-package






--
If all the advertising in the world were to shut down tomorrow, would people
still go on buying more soap, eating more apples, giving their children more
vitamins, roughage, milk, olive oil, scooters and laxatives, learning more
languages by iPod, hearing more virtuosos by radio, re-decorating their
houses, refreshing themselves with more non-alcoholic thirst-quenchers,
cooking more new, appetizing dishes, affording themselves that little extra
touch which means so much? Or would the whole desperate whirligig slow
down, and the exhausted public relapse upon plain grub and elbow-grease?

--- Dorothy L Sayers, in Murder Must Advertise

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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Reindl Harald]

Am 31.01.2013 22:02, schrieb Dave Stevens:
> Quoting Reindl Harald :
> 
>>
>>
>> Am 31.01.2013 20:53, schrieb Jan Litwiński:
>>> Dnia 2013-01-31, o godz. 10:25:00
>>> Dave Stevens  napisał(a):
>>>
 I tried to install Java in Firefox and after the download I get an
 error saying the package is unsigned and installation halts. Have
 got the same response with another widely used package. Using the
 x86_64 live spin. What to do?

 Dave

>>> try yum localinstall javapackage
>>
>> not a smart idea - usually ANY fedora package is signed
>>
>> missing signatures should be a WARNING SINGAL and not
>> ignored like trained monkeys confirm any SSL warning
>> in a webbrowser
>>
> 
> it isn't a fedora package. I wanted to used a js app in firefox and it needed 
> the plugin 

then it is not a js app
javascript != java

> and went looking for one. the download came from Oracle

so why not "yum install icedtea-web" which is the java-plugin

[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ yum search java web plug-in
Geladene Plugins: etckeeper, langpacks, presto, protectbase
rhsoft-fedora   
 | 2.9 kB  00:00:00 !!!
rhsoft-generic  
 | 2.9 kB  00:00:00
0 packages excluded due to repository protections
=== N/S Matched: java, web, plug-in 

icedtea-web.x86_64 : Java browser plug-in and Web Start implementation

> I have some criticisms of Oracle as a firm but I suppose they can be 
> trusted to that extent. Anyway I'll try that suggestion when I get back 
> to that computer

trusting in context of a unsigned package? uhm
each third party repo installs it's GPG key with the release-package



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Re: F18 : from iptables to firewalld

[Reindl Harald]

Am 31.01.2013 22:04, schrieb Ranjan Maitra:
> Jan 31 15:01:35 localhost systemd[1]: Failed to start
> firewalld - dynamic firewall daemon. 
> Jan 31 15:01:35 localhost systemd
> [1]: Unit firewalld.service entered failed state 
> Jan 31 15:01:36 localhost setroubleshoot: SELinux is
> preventing /usr/bin/python2.7 from getattr access on the
> file /run/firewalld.pid. For complete SELinux messages. run sealert -l
> 6da93ecc-b84a-4d14-bc3f-0f8d06af82a2 Jan 31 15:01:37 localhost
> setroubleshoot: SELinux is preventing /usr/bin/python2.7 from write
> access on the file firewalld.pid. For complete SELinux messages. run
> sealert -l d6eea039-e995-4e5e-a6f3-57048fc05bae 
> Jan 31 15:01:37 localhost
> setroubleshoot: SELinux is preventing /usr/bin/python2.7 from unlink
> access on the file firewalld.pid. For complete SELinux messages. run
> sealert -l 689b4650-7ccb-4ca7-a2db-2ec6c5f18b6f
> 
> Not sure what to do with all this

write a bugreport why this new shiny thing is broken by
SElinux and realize that such things are the reason why
i said "reboot blidnly" is a terrible idea

AND START IPATBLES AGAIN BEVAUSE YOU ARE WIDE OPEN NOW



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Re: F18 : from iptables to firewalld

[Reindl Harald]

Am 31.01.2013 21:48, schrieb Matthew Miller:
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 09:20:58PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> this output is crippled by systemctl (thanks to systemd-guys for
>> a very bad usability at all with their strip and pagers all the time)
>> "systemctl status firewalld.service | cat" should bring better output
> 
> export 'SYSTEMD_PAGER=cat'

does not change the fact systemctl is breaking principles
it even shows it much more



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Re: WiFi permanently disappeared after booting test kernel

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 02:19 PM, Mike Fleetwood wrote:

Hi,

On my netbook I booted a test kernel 3.8.0-rc4+ I compiled.  Now after
booting back into my regular Fedora kernel 3.6.11-5.fc17.i686.PAE my
wifi network device remains permanently disappeared.  No wifi networks
displayed in Network Manager gui.  Also the Network Manager syslog
messages make it look like the device has completely disappeared.

Suggestions for restoring wifi welcome.


Ignore the test kernel as a possible cause until you've checked 
everything else.  Just because it happened after trying it and going 
back to a regular kernel doesn't mean it's responsible.

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Re: booting on Fedora 17/18 with basic video mode

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 02:04 PM, Craig White wrote:

Michael monitors this list - there's really no excuse for it not to work
unless someone didn't follow the instructions and no amount of personal
frustrations should cause you or anyone else to suggest risky behavior
to be practiced by others unless you or they understand and explain the
risks.


I added a comment to a bugzilla at rpmfusion when it first popped up, 
but never heard back other than a claim that it was fixed, followed by 
"oh no it's not!"

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WiFi permanently disappeared after booting test kernel

[Mike Fleetwood]

Hi,

On my netbook I booted a test kernel 3.8.0-rc4+ I compiled.  Now after
booting back into my regular Fedora kernel 3.6.11-5.fc17.i686.PAE my
wifi network device remains permanently disappeared.  No wifi networks
displayed in Network Manager gui.  Also the Network Manager syslog
messages make it look like the device has completely disappeared.

Suggestions for restoring wifi welcome.

Thanks
Mike


Fragment of Network Manager syslog messages when working before
--8<--
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  monitoring kernel
firmware directory '/lib/firmware'.
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  rfkill2: found WiFi
radio killswitch (at
/sys/devices/pci:00/:00:1c.3/:01:00.0/ieee80211/phy0/rfkill2)
(driver ath9k)
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  rfkill0: found WiFi
radio killswitch (at /sys/devices/platform/eeepc/rfkill/rfkill0)
(platform driver eeepc)
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  rfkill4: found WWAN
radio killswitch (at /sys/devices/platform/eeepc/rfkill/rfkill4)
(platform driver eeepc)
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  WiFi enabled by radio
killswitch; enabled by state file
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  WWAN enabled by radio
killswitch; enabled by state file
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  WiMAX enabled by
radio killswitch; enabled by state file
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  Networking is enabled
by state file
...
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  (wlan0): using
nl80211 for WiFi device control
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  (wlan0): driver
supports Access Point (AP) mode
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  (wlan0): new 802.11
WiFi device (driver: 'ath9k' ifindex: 3)
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  (wlan0): exported as
/org/freedesktop/NetworkManager/Devices/1
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  (wlan0): now managed
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  (wlan0): device state
change: unmanaged -> unavailable (reason 'managed') [10 20 2]
Jan 18 23:01:53 edge NetworkManager[479]:  (wlan0): bringing up device.
...
Jan 18 23:01:59 edge NetworkManager[479]:  Activation (wlan0)
successful, device activated.
Jan 18 23:01:59 edge NetworkManager[479]:  Activation (wlan0)
Stage 5 of 5 (IPv4 Commit) complete.


Fragment of Network Manager syslog messages when broken after
--8<--
Jan 28 18:43:26 edge NetworkManager[466]:  monitoring kernel
firmware directory '/lib/firmware'.
Jan 28 18:43:26 edge NetworkManager[466]:  rfkill0: found WiFi
radio killswitch (at /sys/devices/platform/eeepc/rfkill/rfkill0)
(platform driver eeepc)
Jan 28 18:43:26 edge NetworkManager[466]:  rfkill2: found WWAN
radio killswitch (at /sys/devices/platform/eeepc/rfkill/rfkill2)
(platform driver eeepc)
Jan 28 18:43:26 edge NetworkManager[466]:  WiFi disabled by
radio killswitch; enabled by state file
Jan 28 18:43:26 edge NetworkManager[466]:  WWAN enabled by radio
killswitch; enabled by state file
Jan 28 18:43:26 edge NetworkManager[466]:  WiMAX enabled by
radio killswitch; enabled by state file
Jan 28 18:43:26 edge NetworkManager[466]:  Networking is enabled
by state file

No (wlan0) related NetworkManager syslog messages afterwards at all.
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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 13:02 -0800, Dave Stevens wrote:
> Quoting Reindl Harald :
> 
> >
> >
> > Am 31.01.2013 20:53, schrieb Jan Litwiński:
> >> Dnia 2013-01-31, o godz. 10:25:00
> >> Dave Stevens  napisał(a):
> >>
> >>> I tried to install Java in Firefox and after the download I get an
> >>> error saying the package is unsigned and installation halts. Have
> >>> got the same response with another widely used package. Using the
> >>> x86_64 live spin. What to do?
> >>>
> >>> Dave
> >>>
> >> try yum localinstall javapackage
> >
> > not a smart idea - usually ANY fedora package is signed
> >
> > missing signatures should be a WARNING SINGAL and not
> > ignored like trained monkeys confirm any SSL warning
> > in a webbrowser
> >
> >
> 
> it isn't a fedora package. I wanted to used a js app in firefox and it  
> needed the plugin and went looking for one. the download came from  
> Oracle. I have some criticisms of Oracle as a firm but I suppose they  
> can be trusted to that extent. Anyway I'll try that suggestion when I  
> get back to that computer.

just an fyi...

There are many who suggest that even the very latest java update doesn't
fix the security issues with the browser plug-in and pretty much
everyone and his brother recommend disabling the plug-in right now
(Apple did it for you with their last OSX update). It's become a real
security nightmare. Don't say you weren't warned and this security issue
is even more serious than not having a signed package.

Craig



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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 01:02 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:

it isn't a fedora package. I wanted to used a js app in firefox and it
needed the plugin and went looking for one. the download came from
Oracle. I have some criticisms of Oracle as a firm but I suppose they
can be trusted to that extent. Anyway I'll try that suggestion when I
get back to that computer.


Better yet: get in touch with Oracle and find out how to get their 
signing key.  As you say, they're probably trustable to that extent, but 
it's always better to be able to use their key to make sure.

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Re: booting on Fedora 17/18 with basic video mode

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 13:48 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> > You should install the repo key on your system prior to ever
> installing
> > packages. If you import the key, you don't have this problem.
> > Instructions are on rpmfusion.org website for this purpose.
> >
> 
> I do.  I've been having intermittent issues with rpmfusion (only)
> about 
> packages where the key doesn't match on my F16 desktop for over a
> year. 

Michael monitors this list - there's really no excuse for it not to work
unless someone didn't follow the instructions and no amount of personal
frustrations should cause you or anyone else to suggest risky behavior
to be practiced by others unless you or they understand and explain the
risks.

Everything else is just chatter.

Craig


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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 12:39 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:

missing signatures should be a WARNING SINGAL and not
ignored like trained monkeys confirm any SSL warning
in a webbrowser


That's why I didn't suggest turning off the check in this case: the 
package should have come from a proper, reputable repo and if the key 
wasn't there, it shouldn't have been available for download.

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Re: booting on Fedora 17/18 with basic video mode

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 12:26 PM, Craig White wrote:


You should install the repo key on your system prior to ever installing
packages. If you import the key, you don't have this problem.
Instructions are on rpmfusion.org website for this purpose.



I do.  I've been having intermittent issues with rpmfusion (only) about 
packages where the key doesn't match on my F16 desktop for over a year. 
 Today, there was one update from there and it installed without a 
problem, with the gpg check enabled, so it looks like I should have the 
right key installed.




Yum's 'nogpgcheck' option bypasses the signature requirement on packages
which means that you could install packages from anyone claiming to be
rpmfusion.org. It is relatively simple to poison someone's DNS and
direct them to some other repo so while you trust rpmfusion.org, you are
also trusting your DNS not to lie to you.


I normally use yumex every day and when the error pops up, I unselect 
everything from rpmfusion and tell yumex to try again.  Then, I examine 
the remaining updates to make sure they're what I expect to see and tell 
yumex to turn off the gpg check for that run only.  I'm very, very 
careful about what I allow to update that way and I'd never suggest that 
anybody turn it off completely, or if they're not sure that they trust 
the repo in question.  And, if you'll go back and look at what I 
originally wrote, I made sure to warn the OP to be careful with it. 
(I'll go even farther, now: if you're not sure it's safe, or you're not 
comfortable with doing it, don't.)

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xorg crashing

[Craig White]

upgraded (via preupgrade) to F17 on Saturday and the xorg crashes are
too frequent. The number of bug reports on bugzilla, just from today
(mostly from abrt) simply make it difficult for me to try to make any
sense of them:
(long bugzilla search/sort, not recommended link)
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?bug_status=__open__&content=firefox%20xorg&product=Fedora&query_format=specific&order=changeddate%20DESC%2Crelevance%20DESC&query_based_on=

So a simple description of my setup is...
F17
22" monitor
Nouveau driver with a small xorg.conf because I will max out at 1024x768
unless I have the xorg.conf but the contents are simple [1]

Seems if I try to use Firefox, I am certain to crash xorg.

Seems if I try to copy graphics from Gimp and then paste into
LibreOffice Writer, I am certain to crash xorg

Perhaps someone has been able to solve this issue in a less than perfect
way as it seems to a problem with certain hardware combinations and the
current xorg so I'm putting this on list.

Craig

[1] /etc/X11/xorg.conf
Section "ServerLayout"
Identifier "single head configuration"
Screen  0  "Screen0" 0 0
EndSection


Section "ServerFlags"
Option  "AllowEmptyInput" "off"
Option  "AutoAddDevices" "true"
Option  "DontZap" "false"
EndSection

Section "Monitor"
Identifier   "Monitor0"
ModelName"LCD Panel 1280x1024"
Modeline "1280x1024" 108.00  1280 1328 1440 1688  1024 1025
1028 1066 +HSync +VSync
HorizSync31.5 - 64.0
VertRefresh  56.0 - 65.0
Option  "dpms"
EndSection

Section "Device"
Identifier  "Videocard0"
Driver  "nouveau"
EndSection

Section "Screen"
Identifier "Screen0"
Device "Videocard0"
Monitor"Monitor0"
DefaultDepth 24
SubSection "Display"
Viewport   0 0
Depth 24
Modes "1280x1024"
EndSubSection
EndSection


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 12:20 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:

To answerlook at society: Sarah Palin.Mit Romney...Lance
ArmstrongKanye West.the Kardashians!LoL! Are they not the
very pinnacle...nay the epitome of "Cool"?...


As far as Sarah Palin goes, my impression was that people liked her 
because she wasn't ashamed of her opinions and she never pretended to be 
anything except what she was.  Calling Mit Romney an ignoramus only 
shows that you didn't like his political opinions and think that that 
makes it OK to call him names.  That tells me more about you than of him 
but I'm going to drop the subject RIGHT NOW because I don't consider it 
OK to do that and I prefer to live up to my principles.


No, I don't consider anybody on that list "the epitome of cool," because 
I remember when there were people like Kookie, who really were cool.

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Re: F17, audacity recording what you hear

[Frank Elsner]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:53:52 -0500 Claude Jones wrote:
> On 1/31/2013 2:41 PM, Frank Elsner wrote:
> > on my Lenovo C200 I've no Problem to record what I hear using audacity.
> >
> > But ... on my Lenovo X121e the recording sounds really bad.
> > It sounds like a tin can. But is not clipped. The level is also ok.
> >
> > Any idea what might be the reason?
> 
> In preferences, in the "Recording" section, do you have software 
> playthrough checked? It should not be unless you're specifically using 
> that feature.
> In the "Quality" section, there are settings you can play with, have you 
> checked those?

Thanks for the pointers. I'll check and report.

> It's hard to say what your problem is because "sounds like a tin can" is 
> not very helpful - you say it's not clipping and that the levels are OK. 

Maybe translate.google.com has failed for my german :-(

The sound is like the sound of bery old telephones.


--Frank Elsner
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Paul Allen Newell]

On 1/31/2013 1:07 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:



My copy of this is back in the mid-90s:

   Vy  Knot?


Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the
European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways
of improving efficiency in communications between Government
departments.

European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is
unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough,
through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme
of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of
course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by
participating nations.

In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's'
instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities
would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced
by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this
klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters
kould be made with one less letter.

There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was
announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'.
This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty persent shorter in print.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be
expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are
possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double leters
whish have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al
agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful.
Therefor we kould drop them and kontinu to read and writ as though
nothing had hapend.

By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would
be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'.  Perhaps zen ze
funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a
'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from vords
kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer
kombinations of leters.  Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud
eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no
mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud find it ezi tu understand ech
ozer. Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru.




Thank you ... I really enjoyed reading it (and was easily able to read 
the whole article ... while my Thunderbird spell-check starting choking 
on the third paragraph)

Paul

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 01/31/2013 03:38 PM, Craig White wrote:

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:55 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.

Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
off my chest. Feel free to ignore.


better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by
SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger
generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules.

Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA.


My copy of this is back in the mid-90s:

   Vy  Knot?


Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the
European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways
of improving efficiency in communications between Government
departments.

European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is
unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough,
through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme
of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of
course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by
participating nations.

In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's'
instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities
would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced
by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this
klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters
kould be made with one less letter.

There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was
announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'.
This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty persent shorter in print.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be
expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are
possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double leters
whish have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al
agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful.
Therefor we kould drop them and kontinu to read and writ as though
nothing had hapend.

By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would
be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'.  Perhaps zen ze
funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a
'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from vords
kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer
kombinations of leters.  Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud
eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no
mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud find it ezi tu understand ech
ozer. Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru.





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Re: F18 : from iptables to firewalld

[Ranjan Maitra]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:20:58 +0100 Reindl Harald
 wrote:

> 
> 
> Am 31.01.2013 19:43, schrieb Ranjan Maitra:
> > Sorry, but I get the following error:
> >> systemctl stop iptables.service ip6tables.service; systemctl start 
> >> firewalld.service
> >>
> > $ sudo systemctl start firewalld.service
> > Job for firewalld.service failed. See 'systemctl status
> > firewalld.service' and 'journalctl -xn' for details.
> > 
> > $ sudo systemctl status firewalld.service
> > firewalld.service - firewalld - dynamic firewall daemon
> >   Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/firewalld.service;
> > enabled) Active: failed (Result: exit-code) since Thu 2013-01-31
> > 12:41:52 CST; 2s ago Process: 25777 ExecStart=/usr/sbin/firewalld
> > --nofork $FIREWALLD_ARGS (code=exited, status=1/FAILURE)
> > 
> > Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Starting firewalld ...
> > Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain firewalld[25777]: 2013-01-31 12...
> > Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain firewalld[25777]: 2013-01-31 12...
> > Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: firewalld.service: ...
> > Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Failed to start fir...
> > Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Unit firewalld.serv...
> 
> this output is crippled by systemctl (thanks to systemd-guys for
> a very bad usability at all with their strip and pagers all the time)
> 
> "systemctl status firewalld.service | cat" should bring better output
> 


Thanks! I get this:


$ sudo systemctl status firewalld.service | cat
firewalld.service - firewalld - dynamic firewall daemon
  Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/firewalld.service;
enabled) Active: failed (Result: exit-code) since Thu 2013-01-31
12:41:52 CST; 2h 18min ago Process: 25777 ExecStart=/usr/sbin/firewalld
--nofork $FIREWALLD_ARGS (code=exited, status=1/FAILURE)

Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Starting firewalld -
dynamic firewall daemon... Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain
firewalld[25777]: 2013-01-31 12:41:52 FATAL ERROR: [Errno 13]
Permission denied: '/var/run/firewalld.pid' Jan 31 12:41:52
localhost.localdomain firewalld[25777]: 2013-01-31 12:41:52 ERROR:
Traceback (most recent call last): Jan 31 12:41:52
localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: firewalld.service: main process
exited, code=exited, status=1/FAILURE Jan 31 12:41:52
localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Failed to start firewalld - dynamic
firewall daemon. Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Unit
firewalld.service entered failed state



> additionally /var/log/messages is normally the place to look



Jan 31 15:01:35 localhost systemd[1]: Starting firewalld - dynamic
firewall daemon... 
Jan 31 15:01:35 localhost firewalld: 2013-01-31
15:01:35 FATAL ERROR: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
'/var/run/firewalld.pid' 
Jan 31 15:01:35 localhost firewalld: 2013-01-31 15:01:35 ERROR:
Traceback (most recent call last): 
Jan 31 15:01:35 localhost systemd
[1]: firewalld.service: main process exited, code=exited,
status=1/FAILURE 
Jan 31 15:01:35 localhost systemd[1]: Failed to start
firewalld - dynamic firewall daemon. 
Jan 31 15:01:35 localhost systemd
[1]: Unit firewalld.service entered failed state 
Jan 31 15:01:36 localhost setroubleshoot: SELinux is
preventing /usr/bin/python2.7 from getattr access on the
file /run/firewalld.pid. For complete SELinux messages. run sealert -l
6da93ecc-b84a-4d14-bc3f-0f8d06af82a2 Jan 31 15:01:37 localhost
setroubleshoot: SELinux is preventing /usr/bin/python2.7 from write
access on the file firewalld.pid. For complete SELinux messages. run
sealert -l d6eea039-e995-4e5e-a6f3-57048fc05bae 
Jan 31 15:01:37 localhost
setroubleshoot: SELinux is preventing /usr/bin/python2.7 from unlink
access on the file firewalld.pid. For complete SELinux messages. run
sealert -l 689b4650-7ccb-4ca7-a2db-2ec6c5f18b6f


Not sure what to do with all this.

Many thanks!
Ranjan

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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Dave Stevens]

Quoting Reindl Harald :




Am 31.01.2013 20:53, schrieb Jan Litwiński:

Dnia 2013-01-31, o godz. 10:25:00
Dave Stevens  napisał(a):


I tried to install Java in Firefox and after the download I get an
error saying the package is unsigned and installation halts. Have
got the same response with another widely used package. Using the
x86_64 live spin. What to do?

Dave


try yum localinstall javapackage


not a smart idea - usually ANY fedora package is signed

missing signatures should be a WARNING SINGAL and not
ignored like trained monkeys confirm any SSL warning
in a webbrowser




it isn't a fedora package. I wanted to used a js app in firefox and it  
needed the plugin and went looking for one. the download came from  
Oracle. I have some criticisms of Oracle as a firm but I suppose they  
can be trusted to that extent. Anyway I'll try that suggestion when I  
get back to that computer.


Thanks!

D


--
If all the advertising in the world were to shut down tomorrow, would people
still go on buying more soap, eating more apples, giving their children more
vitamins, roughage, milk, olive oil, scooters and laxatives, learning more
languages by iPod, hearing more virtuosos by radio, re-decorating their
houses, refreshing themselves with more non-alcoholic thirst-quenchers,
cooking more new, appetizing dishes, affording themselves that little extra
touch which means so much? Or would the whole desperate whirligig slow
down, and the exhausted public relapse upon plain grub and elbow-grease?

--- Dorothy L Sayers, in Murder Must Advertise

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Re: humble suggestion to Fedora developers

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 12:09 PM, Craig White wrote:

these meta discussions seem only to highlight the things one doesn't
know about the other. I use both Fedora and Ubuntu.


I use Fedora only and migrated to Xfce to avoid having to use Gnome 3. 
My older sister uses Ubuntu, with me for (literally) in-house tech 
support.  After a year fighting Unity on her desktop, she had me talk 
her through installing and switching to Xfce.  (Parkinson's and 
itty-bitty precise mouse movements don't mix!)  Now, she's asking me to 
download the .iso for the latest Xubuntu so she can have the computer 
guru at her school replace the Ubuntu on her netbook for the same 
reason.  (I don't mind her doing it that way; they're getting paid for it.)


Given the choice, I prefer Fedora for myself, but if somebody just wants 
to get away from Windows, I'll always point them to Ubuntu because it's 
designed for "Windows refugees" and Just Works.  Now, however, I suggest 
that they try Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu, installing whichever one they 
like best.  (Unity isn't exactly for everybody!)  When I first ran 
across Unix, I complained that the biggest problem it had was that when 
you asked how to do something, the answer had to start with, "That 
depends."  Now I realize that the freedom to decide for yourself which 
distro, which shell, which DE you use is its greatest asset, especially 
when you compare it to Microsoft's One Size Fits Nobody.

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Re: F17, audacity recording what you hear

[Claude Jones]

On 1/31/2013 2:41 PM, Frank Elsner wrote:

on my Lenovo C200 I've no Problem to record what I hear using audacity.

But ... on my Lenovo X121e the recording sounds really bad.
It sounds like a tin can. But is not clipped. The level is also ok.

Any idea what might be the reason?


In preferences, in the "Recording" section, do you have software 
playthrough checked? It should not be unless you're specifically using 
that feature.
In the "Quality" section, there are settings you can play with, have you 
checked those?


It's hard to say what your problem is because "sounds like a tin can" is 
not very helpful - you say it's not clipping and that the levels are OK. 
The above is what I can come up with so far - I do lots of recording of 
audio I'm playing on my various PCs and laptops, and if I can get 
Audacity to 'see' the signal, then it generally sounds good... Some 
combinations of hardware/drivers will not work, but generally, it's all 
or nothing - that's been my experience on lots of installations.


--
Claude Jones Brunswick, MD, USA
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 12:07 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:




I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher.

Oops.

Really, without 4th grade remedial speach and reading (back in '59) I
don't know where I would be today.


I'm not dyslexic, but my 4th grade teacher (in '59, IIRC) had a method 
of teaching spelling that ensured that if you ever fell behind you'd 
never catch up.  (By the end of the term, the best students were 
learning 35 new works a week; the worst, 5.)  I wasn't among the worst, 
but fell behind enough that the only thing that's "taught" me spelling 
is having the same words corrected over and over, and even then there 
are some I can't remember.  At least you and I use our spelling checkers 
and pay attention to them.  Those who can't spell and won't use them 
have no excuse IMAO.

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Re: F18 : from iptables to firewalld

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 09:20:58PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> this output is crippled by systemctl (thanks to systemd-guys for
> a very bad usability at all with their strip and pagers all the time)
> "systemctl status firewalld.service | cat" should bring better output

export 'SYSTEMD_PAGER=cat'


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Re: Disabling SlowKeys?

[DJ Delorie]

The only "solution" I've found for this (other than hacking that feature
out of X ;) is to put this in my .xsession:

xkbset sl 1

This doesn't disable slow keys, but sets slow keys at the fastest
possible timeout so that the keyboard acts the same when slowkeys is
enabled.

(xkbset is in xkbset-*.rpm)
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:07 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
> > On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
> > Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> >
> >> Way way OT:
> >>
> >> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> >> "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when
> >> 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken,
> > Could be various reasons.
> > It's a multi-cultural list.
> > English as 2nd or 3rd language.
> > users may not have a western-style keyboard.
> > Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters)
> 
> I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher.

my oldest brother is probably the smartest person I know - and he was
dyslexic too. He is also a graduate chemical engineer, former union
organizer, economics professor (masters degree) and it's obvious that
while spelling and grammar checkers are a must for people with these
problems, the truth is that it's about effective communication and I
don't have much patience for those who want to insist on rules of
communication rather than just appreciate the communication.

Craig



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:55 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Way way OT:
> 
> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
> not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
> Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
> cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
> minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
> expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
> teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
> want to know.
> 
> Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
> off my chest. Feel free to ignore.

better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by
SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger
generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules.

Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA.

Craig


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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Reindl Harald]

Am 31.01.2013 20:53, schrieb Jan Litwiński:
> Dnia 2013-01-31, o godz. 10:25:00
> Dave Stevens  napisał(a):
> 
>> I tried to install Java in Firefox and after the download I get an  
>> error saying the package is unsigned and installation halts. Have
>> got the same response with another widely used package. Using the
>> x86_64 live spin. What to do?
>>
>> Dave
>>
> try yum localinstall javapackage

not a smart idea - usually ANY fedora package is signed

missing signatures should be a WARNING SINGAL and not
ignored like trained monkeys confirm any SSL warning
in a webbrowser



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Re: booting on Fedora 17/18 with basic video mode

[Craig White]

On Wed, 2013-01-30 at 16:08 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 01/30/2013 03:02 PM, Raf Roger wrote:
> > it helps me to installed everything as i wanted and it works well.
> 
> Good.  Please note that I only suggested that option because I trust 
> rpmfusion.  Unless you're sure it's safe, it's probably better not to 
> try it, especially with an obscure third-party repo.

sort of an uninformed opinion offered to solve a problem (which indeed
worked) and by not understanding the risks involved, you couldn't
properly note the risks to the person you were advising.

You should install the repo key on your system prior to ever installing
packages. If you import the key, you don't have this problem.
Instructions are on rpmfusion.org website for this purpose.

Yum's 'nogpgcheck' option bypasses the signature requirement on packages
which means that you could install packages from anyone claiming to be
rpmfusion.org. It is relatively simple to poison someone's DNS and
direct them to some other repo so while you trust rpmfusion.org, you are
also trusting your DNS not to lie to you.

Craig


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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Jan Litwiński]

Dnia 2013-01-31, o godz. 10:25:00
Dave Stevens  napisał(a):

> I tried to install Java in Firefox and after the download I get an  
> error saying the package is unsigned and installation halts. Have
> got the same response with another widely used package. Using the
> x86_64 live spin. What to do?
> 
> Dave
> 
try yum localinstall javapackage

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Re: best backup solution

[Reindl Harald]

Am 31.01.2013 20:09, schrieb Junk:
> I'd just like to clarify that LVM snapshots are not really a backup method in 
> themselves. Snapshots provide functionality to enable a block device level 
> (i.e. partition) backup to be taken on a live and changing filesystem by some 
> method. They only exist for the length of time the actual backup takes. 

and they are NOT safe in case of open files like mysqld and
the like applications, the fs-snapshot does not grant you
anything if apllications are buffering which is common




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Re: F18 : from iptables to firewalld

[Reindl Harald]

Am 31.01.2013 19:43, schrieb Ranjan Maitra:
> Sorry, but I get the following error:
>> systemctl stop iptables.service ip6tables.service; systemctl start 
>> firewalld.service
>>
> $ sudo systemctl start firewalld.service
> Job for firewalld.service failed. See 'systemctl status
> firewalld.service' and 'journalctl -xn' for details.
> 
> $ sudo systemctl status firewalld.service
> firewalld.service - firewalld - dynamic firewall daemon
> Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/firewalld.service;
> enabled) Active: failed (Result: exit-code) since Thu 2013-01-31
> 12:41:52 CST; 2s ago Process: 25777 ExecStart=/usr/sbin/firewalld
> --nofork $FIREWALLD_ARGS (code=exited, status=1/FAILURE)
> 
> Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Starting firewalld ...
> Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain firewalld[25777]: 2013-01-31 12...
> Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain firewalld[25777]: 2013-01-31 12...
> Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: firewalld.service: ...
> Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Failed to start fir...
> Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Unit firewalld.serv...

this output is crippled by systemctl (thanks to systemd-guys for
a very bad usability at all with their strip and pagers all the time)

"systemctl status firewalld.service | cat" should bring better output

additionally /var/log/messages is normally the place to look

i personally do not use firewalld and will never use it because
i write my own iptables.sh scripts since years which are much
more powerful and also does not unload modules at changes which
is one of the "improvements" of firewalld cuased only by weak
implementations of the GUI crap



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.]

On 01/31/2013 02:16 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote:

I'd think it's the coolness thing.


What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?


To answerlook at society: Sarah Palin.Mit Romney...Lance 
ArmstrongKanye West.the Kardashians!LoL! Are they not the 
very pinnacle...nay the epitome of "Cool"?...



EGO II
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 11:16:28AM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> >I'd think it's the coolness thing.
> What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?

Well, traditionally, actually, it's pretty high up there in the defining
factors.

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Re: humble suggestion to Fedora developers

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 16:46 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 01/31/2013 04:44 AM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
> > On 01/27/2013 06:15 PM, Lailah wrote:
> >> El vie, 25-01-2013 a las 22:40 +0100, Frantisek Hanzlik escribió:
> >>> Joe Zeff wrote:
> >>> > On 01/25/2013 12:46 PM, James Freer wrote:
> >>> >> LOL - good reply! I must admit i do get fed up with the twin names. In
> >>> >> the Precise version... it was very much IMprecise. Just too many bugs
> >>> >> now to be worth using.
> >>> >
> >>> > It often seems to me that they're too concerned about making their names
> >>> > cute for my taste, but I don't use it myself and keep my opinion to
> >>> > myself for the most.  Now, alas, it's beginning to look like Fedora's
> >>> > going down that path instead of marketing itself as a serious distro for
> >>> > people who are more interested in how it works than in what it's called.
> >>> >  Alas, from what I can see, unless I'm active as a Fedora dev (My
> >>> > programming skills rusted away decades ago.) the only input I have to 
> >>> > the
> >>> > process is making suggestions.  None of us "mere users" have a vote.
> >>>
> >>> Trend which I see in my Linux "neighbourhood" is quite transparent -
> >>> people switch from Fedora elsewhere: some of them to Centos, others
> >>> to different distro, some leave Linux entirely. Perhaps nobody now
> >>> is using Gnome3.
> 
> This matches with what I observe here. On my home network/personal 
> machines, my way to survive was to switch my home-server to CentOS and 
> to resort to Xfce as DE on Fedora clients.

myself, I use Ubuntu for server and KDE for DE on Fedora clients. At the
time, installing CentOS/RHEL-5 wasn't an option any longer and Red Hat
was ridiculously late delivering RHEL-6 and then CentOS took forever to
get their initial build out the door. Ubuntu LTS versions are
surprisingly good and I haven't regretted the move even a little.

> >>> I myself was not afraid install Fedora at production workstations and
> >>> servers, even in their beta phase - but it ended with F12-F13 (F14 was
> >>> still good distro, but in beta phase there was unworkable systemd; in
> >>> final release was upstart). And now I install Fedora not before several
> >>> weeks after final releas - and for testing purposes only.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Well, is curious...   I see the opposite situation.  People from other
> >> distros  (especially Ubuntu)  dropping into Fedora.  May be a
> >> geographic difference?
> 
> I'd guess, it's people being dissatisfied with what they are used to, 
> now being on a "quest for the better".
> 
>   That said, from what I've heard and read, Ubuntu is in a similar 
> crisis as Fedora. What is Gnome3 in Fedora seems to be Unity in Ubuntu 
> (users turning away), what's the anaconda-disaster in F18 seems to be a 
> general stability in Ubuntu 12.10.

these meta discussions seem only to highlight the things one doesn't
know about the other. I use both Fedora and Ubuntu. Can use either for
server or desktop and can make myself generally happy with either though
oddly, for servers these days, I am preferring Ubuntu and for desktop
usage, I am preferring Fedora but that could easily change. In the end,
there aren't significant differences. Ubuntu, you enable universe and in
Fedora, you enable rpmfusion-nonfree and you get the source restricted,
patent encumbered and obviously more risky stuff installed. I am
reasonably certain that Ubuntu actually uses Anaconda these days and
it's not an ideal installer but for server installs, it's thin and quick
to get up and running.

> > I'm pretty much stuck for the moment until I know 18
> > is a little more stable...as for people "jumping ship" even though a few
> > of the releases might have had a lot of bugs...I don't think I'll be
> > leaving Fedora just yet...LoL! I will wait to see if things smooth out
> > by like...19...maybe 20
> 
> My 2 cents ... stability-wise, from what I've experienced so far, F17 
> and F18 currently seem on par. Also, yum-upgrading existing F17 
> installations to F18 went without many problems for me.
> 
> However, installing F18 probably is a completely different matters ;)

yes but re-writing the installer seems to always pay dividends down the
road if you try not take the minor breakage that comes with a re-write
to heart.

Craig


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:


Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
"i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when
1) their Shift key is clearly not broken,

Could be various reasons.
It's a multi-cultural list.
English as 2nd or 3rd language.
users may not have a western-style keyboard.
Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters)


I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher.

Oops.

Really, without 4th grade remedial speach and reading (back in '59) I 
don't know where I would be today.



Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)


I am that too.


Eyesight not corrected to 20/20.

or just don't give a fiddlers.



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 01/31/2013 04:55 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort?


At least in Germany, often your last sentence applies.

In German, nouns are written with a capital letter at the beginning. 
This means, sentences usually contain many capital letters. When asking 
people about it, the usual answer is "too much effort".


 It's worse on phones and tablets, were switching between upper and 
lower case can mean some "finger acrobatics".


Ralf




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Re: unsigned packages on F18

[Jan Litwiński]

Dnia 2013-01-31, o godz. 10:25:00
Dave Stevens  napisał(a):

> I tried to install Java in Firefox and after the download I get an  
> error saying the package is unsigned and installation halts. Have
> got the same response with another widely used package. Using the
> x86_64 live spin. What to do?
> 
> Dave
> 
try yum localinstall javapackage

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Re: F18: ~/.vnc/xstartup example

[Fernando Gozalo]

Hi,

>> could someone copy-paste a working ~/.vnc/xstartup so I can have a
>> gnome3
>> session when I access my computer using VNC?
>>
>> The ~/.vnc/xstartup I used in F17 doesn't work in F18.
>
> It has been years since the last time I got gnome
> to work in a VNC session, it seems way too dependent
> on 3D stuff to function reasonably. I do have a
> working script, but I use FVWM and don't try
> to run a full blown gnome 3. I think the main
> trick to getting apps to work is to get a dbus
> session started. This provides me a minimal session
> where I can manually run other programs as I need them:
>
> #!/bin/bash
> exec > $HOME/.vnc/xstartup.log 2>&1
> . $HOME/.bash_profile
> unset SSH_AGENT_PID
> unset SSH_CLIENT
> unset SSH_AUTH_SOCK
> unset DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS
> unset SSH_CONNECTION
> eval `dbus-launch --exit-with-session --sh-syntax`
> fvwm &
> /usr/bin/xterm
> --

Thanks to all. I've found https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=896648

Waiting for a fix...

Thanks,
Fernando.


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F17, audacity recording what you hear

[Frank Elsner]

Hello,

on my Lenovo C200 I've no Problem to record what I hear using audacity.

But ... on my Lenovo X121e the recording sounds really bad.
It sounds like a tin can. But is not clipped. The level is also ok.

Any idea what might be the reason?


--Frank Elsner

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Re: F18: ~/.vnc/xstartup example

[Fernando Gozalo]

Hi,

> do us a favor for archive sake, post what you had/used for the F17
> version.


First time I used this info
(http://www.oracle-base.com/articles/linux/configuring-vnc-server-on-linux.php)
to correlate the old and the new config.

To use the display number 10 this is the recipe:

1. Install tigervnc-server:

yum install tigervnc-server

2. Create the .service file:

cp /lib/systemd/system/vncserver@.service \
   /lib/systemd/system/vncserver@:10.service

3. In the new file are instruccions to customize vncserver@:10.service.
You need to change the "username" that will use this access. In a command:

sed -i -e 's//username/g' /usr/lib/systemd/system/vncserver@:10.service

   or, like me, customize the start line with "-geometry 800x600 -nolisten
tcp -localhost". In a command:

sed -i -e 's//username/g' \
-e 's/ExecStart\(.*\)"/ExecStart\1 -geometry 800x600 -nolisten tcp
-localhost"/g' \
   /usr/lib/systemd/system/vncserver@:10.service

4. Reload systemd config files:

systemctl daemon-reload

5. Enable the new service:

systemctl enable vncserver@:10.service

6. Before start the new service set a VNC password for "username":

su - username
vncpasswd
exit

7. Start the new service:

systemctl start vncserver@:10.service




When you want to access your VNC server you must open a SSH connection
redirecting the port 5910 and then connect to localhost:10:

ssh -l username -L 5910:localhost:5910  your-vnc-server
vncviewer localhost:10



Regards,
Fernando.




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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote:

I'd think it's the coolness thing.


What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 07:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings?


Either they're ignorant of proper English usage, they don't care or they 
think they're archie the cockroach.  I'll ask again: where is Professor 
Henry Higgins when we need him?

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Re: f18+gnome3: mail-notification problem

[Lailah]

El mié, 30-01-2013 a las 11:57 +0100, Dario Lesca escribió:

> Someone have some help for me?
> Thanks
> 
> Il giorno mar, 29/01/2013 alle 16.10 +0100, Dario Lesca ha scritto:
> > When I run mail-notification and add some Evolution folder to
> > monitoring, the application crash with this error:
> > 
> > > [lesca@dodo ~]$ mail-notification 
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_ref: 
> > > assertion `G_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): Gtk-CRITICAL **: _gtk_widget_list_devices: 
> > > assertion `GTK_IS_WIDGET (widget)' failed
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): GLib-GObject-WARNING **: instance of invalid 
> > > non-instantiatable type `'
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: 
> > > g_signal_emit_valist: assertion `G_TYPE_CHECK_INSTANCE (instance)' failed
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_unref: 
> > > assertion `G_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_ref: 
> > > assertion `G_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): Gtk-CRITICAL **: _gtk_widget_list_devices: 
> > > assertion `GTK_IS_WIDGET (widget)' failed
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_unref: 
> > > assertion `G_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_ref: 
> > > assertion `G_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): Gtk-CRITICAL **: _gtk_widget_list_devices: 
> > > assertion `GTK_IS_WIDGET (widget)' failed
> > > 
> > > (mail-notification:24093): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_unref: 
> > > assertion `G_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed
> > 
> > And show an error panel with this message:
> > 
> > "A fatal error has occurred in Mail Notification"
> > "A GConf error has occurred: Type mismatch: Expected list, got int."
> > 
> > It's possible to fix this error?
> > There is another apps for check evolution mail local folder?
> >  
> > Many thanks
> > 
> > -- 
> > Dario Lesca - sip:da...@solinos.it
> > (Inviato dal mio Linux Fedora18+Gnome3)
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Dario Lesca - sip:da...@solinos.it
> (Inviato dal mio Linux Fedora18+Gnome3)
> 
> 


Just tell you that it happens to me long ago, that's why I don't use.

I guess is a bug...


Sorry,
Lailah




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Re: best backup solution

[Junk]

On 31 Jan 2013, at 10:32, Suvayu Ali  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 07:59:42AM +1000, Michael D. Setzer II wrote:
>> 
>> A combination of the disk/parition and file level backups is 
>> probable best, and also snap shots with LVM.
> 
> I would also agree with this statement.  For file-level backups look at
> rsync and various rsync wrappers like rsnapshot, BackupPC.  For
> partition level, you might want to look at LVM snapshots.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> -- 
> Suvayu
> 
> Open source is the future. It sets us free.
> -- 
> 

I'd just like to clarify that LVM snapshots are not really a backup method in 
themselves. Snapshots provide functionality to enable a block device level 
(i.e. partition) backup to be taken on a live and changing filesystem by some 
method. They only exist for the length of time the actual backup takes. 
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Re: f18: compiz, "initial package for f18", and Gnome3

[Joe Zeff]

On 01/31/2013 04:31 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:

What compiz features do you use most btw?


I used a lot of the eye candy, including the desktop cube, on my laptop. 
 Then, when I was showing Windows users what Linux could do, I was able 
to show them lots and lots of impressive effects that they couldn't get 
on Windows.  My laptop came with Vista, and still has the stickers, so I 
could show them that this started out as a plain vanilla Windows laptop, 
meaning that the difference was strictly the OS.  Then I'd ask them, "If 
Linux can do this, why can't Windows?"  Great advertising!

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 05:17:15PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I'd think it's the coolness thing. But highly intelligent people do it
> > occasionally, so I have no clue either.
> Yes, some of the Bell Labs people including none other than Ken Thompson
> were known for doing this, but ken gets a pass for obvious reasons :-)

Back in the anything-goes days when e-mail was young, there was considerable
experimentation with neglecting the conventional rules of punctuation in the
new medium. Everyone you might converse with was part of a relatively small
tech-savvy group, and everyone was part of building something new and
exciting. (Please pause for a second here to imagine something cyberpunk, in
its early-80s form.)

As the Internet grew, things changed. After the Eternal September, there was
a new supply of people who weren't trying a new medium so much as they were
actually unable to form coherent sentences in the first place, making doing
so as an affectation considerably less cool. (Now image the movie
"Hackers".) But also, the scope of activity depending on e-mail grew --
including, very serious business. With that, it turns out that the
old-fashioned techniques of communicating coherently weren't so bad after
all.

On the other hand, some of the new conventions did stick, like using an
extra blank line as a paragraph marker rather than indenting the first line.
Also, smilies.

And now back to our regularly scheduled Fedora list?

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Doug]

On 01/31/2013 12:17 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 17:34 +0100, Andras Simon wrote:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word

"i",

not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1)

their

Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.

I'd think it's the coolness thing. But highly intelligent people do it
occasionally, so I have no clue either.

Yes, some of the Bell Labs people including none other than Ken Thompson
were known for doing this, but ken gets a pass for obvious reasons :-)

poc


I believe I have read that English is the only language that capitalizes the
first person.  German capitalizes the second person formal, both
singular and plural. (Sie.)  I think Dutch also capitalizes the second 
person

(U.)

--doug
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Re: F18 : from iptables to firewalld

[Ranjan Maitra]

Sorry, but I get the following error:


> systemctl stop iptables.service ip6tables.service; systemctl start 
> firewalld.service
> 


$ sudo systemctl start firewalld.service
Job for firewalld.service failed. See 'systemctl status
firewalld.service' and 'journalctl -xn' for details.



$ sudo systemctl status firewalld.service
firewalld.service - firewalld - dynamic firewall daemon
  Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/firewalld.service;
enabled) Active: failed (Result: exit-code) since Thu 2013-01-31
12:41:52 CST; 2s ago Process: 25777 ExecStart=/usr/sbin/firewalld
--nofork $FIREWALLD_ARGS (code=exited, status=1/FAILURE)

Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Starting firewalld ...
Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain firewalld[25777]: 2013-01-31 12...
Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain firewalld[25777]: 2013-01-31 12...
Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: firewalld.service: ...
Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Failed to start fir...
Jan 31 12:41:52 localhost.localdomain systemd[1]: Unit firewalld.serv...


How do I fix this?

Many thanks,
Ranjan


FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth


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unsigned packages on F18

[Dave Stevens]

I tried to install Java in Firefox and after the download I get an  
error saying the package is unsigned and installation halts. Have got  
the same response with another widely used package. Using the x86_64  
live spin. What to do?


Dave


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Uptime in FC18 XFCE panel

[Bill Davidsen]

A simple question about options. My panel in FC16 shows uptime with days on one 
line and HH:MM fractional days on the next. In FC17 and FC18 only days are 
shown. I looked through .config/xfce4/panel files for the answer, but in every 
case the uptime is just enabled and works (or not) as I wish.


I did some searching, but haven't found the right info, how do I set thisd?

--
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the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Dave Stevens]

Quoting Robert Moskowitz :



On 01/31/2013 10:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.


Well, what about using a microscopic keyboard image on an iThing while  
in the subway? Could that have anything to do with it?




Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
off my chest. Feel free to ignore.


The expect their grammer checker to automagically fix this for them.  
 Their smartphones SMS messaging does this, so why not their email  
client?


Some people did not learn on a Royal Typewriter to get exposed to  
proper typing techniques.  I BARELY made it to 40wpm to pass that  
class back in '64!


And I hated reading e.e cummings back then.  Robert Frost was more my speed.

"I have miles to go before I sleep."


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--
If all the advertising in the world were to shut down tomorrow, would people
still go on buying more soap, eating more apples, giving their children more
vitamins, roughage, milk, olive oil, scooters and laxatives, learning more
languages by iPod, hearing more virtuosos by radio, re-decorating their
houses, refreshing themselves with more non-alcoholic thirst-quenchers,
cooking more new, appetizing dishes, affording themselves that little extra
touch which means so much? Or would the whole desperate whirligig slow
down, and the exhausted public relapse upon plain grub and elbow-grease?

--- Dorothy L Sayers, in Murder Must Advertise


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Frank Murphy]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:

> Way way OT:
> 
> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when
> 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken,

Could be various reasons.
It's a multi-cultural list.
English as 2nd or 3rd language.
users may not have a western-style keyboard.
Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters)
Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)
Eyesight not corrected to 20/20.

or just don't give a fiddlers.

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Frank
http//www.frankly3d.com
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 17:34 +0100, Andras Simon wrote:
> > Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> "i",
> > not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1)
> their
> > Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
> > cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
> > minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
> > expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
> > teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
> > want to know.
> 
> I'd think it's the coolness thing. But highly intelligent people do it
> occasionally, so I have no clue either.

Yes, some of the Bell Labs people including none other than Ken Thompson
were known for doing this, but ken gets a pass for obvious reasons :-)

poc

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Re: AD authentication

[Michael Cronenworth]

Anthony R Fletcher wrote:
> I think F18 has more integration options but my experience has been with
> RHEL, CentOS and earlier versions of Fedora.

Yes, none of your previous steps are valid any longer.

SSSD and Gnome provide all the AD support required now.

Feel free to read the feature pages and documentation since this is all
different than what you have done in the past.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ActiveDirectory
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ActiveDirectory#Documentation
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Re: F18: ~/.vnc/xstartup example

[Bill Davidsen]

Fernando Gozalo wrote:

Please,

could someone copy-paste a working ~/.vnc/xstartup so I can have a gnome3
session when I access my computer using VNC?

The ~/.vnc/xstartup I used in F17 doesn't work in F18.

Grammar check warning: you have used the adjective "working" in the same 
sentence with the explitive/noun "gnome3."



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 01/31/2013 10:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.

Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
off my chest. Feel free to ignore.


The expect their grammer checker to automagically fix this for them.  
Their smartphones SMS messaging does this, so why not their email client?


Some people did not learn on a Royal Typewriter to get exposed to proper 
typing techniques.  I BARELY made it to 40wpm to pass that class back in 
'64!


And I hated reading e.e cummings back then.  Robert Frost was more my speed.

"I have miles to go before I sleep."


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Re: [389-users] Rolling upgrade of multiple servers

[Bright, Daniel]

On 01/31/2013 09:14 AM, Bright, Daniel wrote:
When you say schema replication is tricky because it is a “single” master, I am 
using an MMR environment where in effect every member is a master. Is this a 
setting that is controlled elsewhere, and does this mean that any custom 
changes to the schema need to be made on this single master server?

Yes.  That's the best way to do it.  If you make schema changes to one master, 
then make sure that all of those schema changes have been replicated to all 
servers throughout your topology, then you can make schema changes to another 
master.  Schema replication is not multi-master in the sense that you can make 
simultaneous changes to to the schema on more than one master.  You just have 
to be careful.  That's why using a single master is easier - if you always make 
changes on that one master, it should work.

OK thanks, that is the way I am planning on doing this. Just for clarification, 
the master schema server in an MMR environment is whatever one I make changes 
to, it is however prudent to make schema changes only to one server as normal 
replication rules do not apply to schema and conflicts could arise if changes 
are made to more than one master.

Right.


Custom Schema
If the standard 99user.ldif file is used for custom schema, these changes are 
replicated to all consumers.
Custom schema files must be copied to each server in order to maintain the 
information in the same schema file on all servers. Custom schema files, and 
changes to those files, are not replicated, even if they are made through the 
Directory Server Console or ldapmodify.
If there are custom schema files, ensure that these files are copied to all 
servers after making changes on the supplier. After all of the files have been 
copied, restart the server.
For more information on custom schema files, see Section 3.4.7, “Creating 
Custom Schema 
Files”.

That's a little bit misleading.  In order for schema changes to be replicated, 
they _must_ be changed using ldapmodify (which is what the console uses).  
Schema changes made over ldap are stored in 99user.ldif.  However, if you 
manually edit 99user.ldif, schema changes will _not_ be replicated.

That is of course unless you restart the directory services on this server, in 
the past when I’ve made changes to 99user.ldif they go into effect when I 
restart the service, is this not true anymore? I haven’t done this for a few 
years so perhaps I am remembering incorrectly.

When you make changes to 99user.ldif by editing the file, and then restart the 
server (or use the schema-reload.pl script), yes, the schema changes do go into 
effect immediately, but they are not replicated.

That is something I was unaware of, thanks for the clarification.

Also, regarding replication between 32-bit and 64-bit servers, I have been 
using my test environment for a few weeks, and have had people actively using 
it for that period of time too. No issues so far have arisen, the period of 
time from the start of this update process until the end is about a month and 
I’m worried that replication issues may arise during this time period, has 
anyone else done a similar rolling upgrade and has it caused issues in the 
past, especially using different architectures as the replicating servers?


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Re: [389-users] notes=U, unindex search? really

[Rich Megginson]

On 01/31/2013 09:33 AM, Picture Book wrote:

As a directory server admin, I need to look at access log and find out who is 
doing expensive unindexed searchs. So that I can work with ldap clients to 
optimize search filter and DS indexes.

The way DSEE reports notes=U make it very simple for DS admin to find expensive 
unindexed searchs.


So how does DSEE make it easier than 389?

Have you tried the logconv.pl script?





From: pictureboo...@hotmail.com
To: 389-us...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Subject: RE: [389-users] notes=U, unindex search? really
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:52:22 -0500



Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:53:34 -0700
From: rmegg...@redhat.com
To: 389-us...@lists.fedoraproject.org
CC: pictureboo...@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [389-users] notes=U, unindex search? really

On 01/18/2013 08:29 AM, Picture Book wrote:

filter="(&(AllowAccess=Y)(uid=bill))"
AllowAccess is unindexed attribute
uid is indexed attribute

access log search result: notes=U

I imagine that directory server will do an indexed search by uid=bill, get the 
entry and then verify if AllowAccess=Y. To me this kind of search is indexed 
search.

example:

[18/Jan/2013:10:17:24 -0500] conn=124757 op=1 SRCH base="ou=people,dc=?" scope=1 
filter="(&(AllowAccess=Y)(uid=bill))" attrs=ALL
[18/Jan/2013:10:17:24 -0500] conn=124757 op=1 RESULT err=0 tag=101 nentries=1 
etime=0 notes=U

etime=0 confirms that this search is fast.

You might imagine that, but that's not how the server works. It parses
the filter, sees that AllowAccess is unindexed, and uses an unindexed
search.

I tried filter="(&(uid=bill)(AllowAccess=Y))". no more "notes=U". It would be 
great if the server can optimize search filter like I imagine. Because some ldap clients do not allow 
custom search filter.

Thank you.


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