Re: off topic - switching email

[g]

hello richard,

On 01/14/2014 09:47 PM, Richard Vickery wrote:

Hi Gang,

I want to change the email address to the lists that I am on; I could
just add the new email to the list, but conceivably I want to rid the
list of this address in favour of my institutional / university
address. Is there a method to accomplishing this without asking
someone from the company?


all of what yo want to do is listed at bottom of each email for
this list;

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users

log the page and you will see all of what you need to fill in.

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peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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off topic - switching email

[Richard Vickery]

Hi Gang,

I want to change the email address to the lists that I am on; I could just
add the new email to the list, but conceivably I want to rid the list of
this address in favour of my institutional / university address. Is there a
method to accomplishing this without asking someone from the company?

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: Anyone upgraded from F19 to F20 with yum?

[Ranjan Maitra]

On Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:49:46 +0100 Suvayu Ali  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 04:41:44PM -0600, Ian Pilcher wrote:
> > Any gotchas that I should be aware of?
> 
> I did it the week of the release and didn't hit anything.

I had a huge issue with one machine: the one that had blueman
installed. It appeared to be some ibus issue. Not sure if this was what
it was, but I suggest the fedup route also.

Ranjan

> 
> -- 
> Suvayu
> 
> Open source is the future. It sets us free.
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Re: Anyone upgraded from F19 to F20 with yum?

[Ian Pilcher]

On 01/14/2014 04:56 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> As a matter of interest, what is the advantage of doing this
> rather than using fedup?

In my case, I still use GRUB legacy as my bootloader.  AFAIK, fedup
doesn't work with this setup.

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Re: Anyone upgraded from F19 to F20 with yum?

[Mihai T. Lazarescu]

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 04:41:44PM -0600, Ian Pilcher wrote:

> Any gotchas that I should be aware of?
> 
> Thanks!

I was thinking to go with you, but then I decided that the
recommended way:

sudo fedup --network 20

may be smoother, and so it was.

Do you have any reason to use yum instead of fedup?

HTH,
Mihai
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Re: Anyone upgraded from F19 to F20 with yum?

[Timothy Murphy]

Suvayu Ali wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 04:41:44PM -0600, Ian Pilcher wrote:
>> Any gotchas that I should be aware of?
> 
> I did it the week of the release and didn't hit anything.

As a matter of interest, what is the advantage of doing this
rather than using fedup?

-- 
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School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland


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Re: Anyone upgraded from F19 to F20 with yum?

[Suvayu Ali]

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 04:41:44PM -0600, Ian Pilcher wrote:
> Any gotchas that I should be aware of?

I did it the week of the release and didn't hit anything.

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Re: Freepbx for fedora?

[Jim]

On 01/14/2014 05:41 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:


On 01/14/2014 05:29 PM, Jim wrote:

On 01/14/2014 05:17 PM, Mark Haney wrote:



Read my last sentence.  I want to run it on an ARM platform. For some
time, that will mean Fedora.  What ver of Fedora is Redhat 7 built on?
Will there be an arm distro for it at some point?


I just did a quick google and found an ARM port called RedSleeve 
that's based on CentOS.  However, a check of the site has shown that 
there's been virtually no movement on the site since 2012. I'm not 
sure if there /is/ movement on it, but it seems unlikely.



Gosh Mark RH 7 is so old that the only place you would see it is 
museum .

But RH 7 is not the same as Fedora it is much older.


OK. RHEL 7 that just went into beta.  Built on Fedora 19.  Since f19 
has been ported to arm, perhaps RHEL/Centos 7 will have a arm kernel.




Sorry about that.
I have been using Redhat ever since RH 1 Desktop and thought that was 
what you were referring to.


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Anyone upgraded from F19 to F20 with yum?

[Ian Pilcher]

Any gotchas that I should be aware of?

Thanks!

-- 

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   Sent from the cloud -- where it's already tomorrow


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Re: Freepbx for fedora?

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 01/14/2014 05:29 PM, Jim wrote:

On 01/14/2014 05:17 PM, Mark Haney wrote:



Read my last sentence.  I want to run it on an ARM platform. For some
time, that will mean Fedora.  What ver of Fedora is Redhat 7 built on?
Will there be an arm distro for it at some point?


I just did a quick google and found an ARM port called RedSleeve 
that's based on CentOS.  However, a check of the site has shown that 
there's been virtually no movement on the site since 2012. I'm not 
sure if there /is/ movement on it, but it seems unlikely.




Gosh Mark RH 7 is so old that the only place you would see it is museum .
But RH 7 is not the same as Fedora it is much older.


OK. RHEL 7 that just went into beta.  Built on Fedora 19.  Since f19 has 
been ported to arm, perhaps RHEL/Centos 7 will have a arm kernel.



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Re: Freepbx for fedora?

[Jim]

On 01/14/2014 05:17 PM, Mark Haney wrote:



Read my last sentence.  I want to run it on an ARM platform.  For some
time, that will mean Fedora.  What ver of Fedora is Redhat 7 built on?
Will there be an arm distro for it at some point?


I just did a quick google and found an ARM port called RedSleeve that's based 
on CentOS.  However, a check of the site has shown that there's been virtually 
no movement on the site since 2012.  I'm not sure if there /is/ movement on it, 
but it seems unlikely.



Gosh Mark RH 7 is so old that the only place you would see it is museum .
But RH 7 is not the same as Fedora it is much older.
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RE: Freepbx for fedora?

[Mark Haney]

Read my last sentence.  I want to run it on an ARM platform.  For some
time, that will mean Fedora.  What ver of Fedora is Redhat 7 built on?
Will there be an arm distro for it at some point?


I just did a quick google and found an ARM port called RedSleeve that's based 
on CentOS.  However, a check of the site has shown that there's been virtually 
no movement on the site since 2012.  I'm not sure if there /is/ movement on it, 
but it seems unlikely.  


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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:51 PM, Ian Malone  wrote:

> On the other hand the casual bug reporter can't be expected to be able to
> determine that their bug is an upstream one, so if the package maintainer
> or triager is able to look at a bug and say, "this is an upstream issue",
> then click a button to connect it upwards that would stop this being a
> problem.
>


Sure, that has been suggested many times before but it isn't easy to
achieve that.  For one, we don't really have any active triaging team and
package maintainers have to do that triaging as well typically but the more
important problem is that, bugzilla is not a universal tracking system
(think launchpad, sf.net, google code tracker, github, projects using trac,
redmine  etc etc) and even within bugzilla many instances are very heavily
customized to suit project specific workflows so trying to establish a
connection to an upstream project (authentication and authorization) and
finding a good way to map the information from distro speciifc bug tracker
to the upstream project bug tracker and keeping track of the status etc
automatically isn't an easy problem at all.

Launchpad tried to do some of this but it has failed to achieve that vision
partly because it was proprietary for a long time and even now doesn't work
like a regular open source project (no releases etc) and is tied to bzr
version control which not many want to use.

Rahul
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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Ian Malone]

On 14 January 2014 20:17, Rahul Sundaram  wrote:


> >Even reporting upstream doesn't always help.  The problem I mentioned
> has been > sitting upstream for 3 weeks with no response
>
> Yes indeed.  That can happen.  What did you really expect? You are not
> using a commercial product with any kind of support agreements.  Most of
> the components you use in Fedora is written and maintained by volunteers
> who might not respond quickly to a bug report if they are busy.  Even for
> components that has been developed primarily by commercial organizations,
> they aren't necessarily going to prioritize your issues.  In general, I
> would recommend you file bug reports upstream if they aren't specific to
> Fedora.
>
>
> A big part of this is that there's little communication between fedora and
other bugzillas. It's confusing and frustrating for people to report a bug
against Fedora and get told they need to report it somewhere else, at the
same time I realise packagers aren't keen on cutting and pasting bug
reports to upstream, especially as they can't provide any information
upstream might ask for. On the other hand the casual bug reporter can't be
expected to be able to determine that their bug is an upstream one, so if
the package maintainer or triager is able to look at a bug and say, "this
is an upstream issue", then click a button to connect it upwards that would
stop this being a problem.
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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Chris Murphy]

On Jan 14, 2014, at 12:54 PM, pgaltieri .  wrote:

> The general issue is there is an inconsistency with how Fedora bugs are dealt 
> with.  Some bugs are triaged and re-assigned to the appropriate component if 
> necessary. Some are redirected upstream where they sit for weeks without 
> being addressed, and others are not addressed at all.  

This is expected when all of these things are done by volunteer.

> 
> If it's preferred that bugs against products are reported upstream is there a 
> document that maps Fedora components to upstream sites?

I don't know. I use google search for this.


Chris Murphy
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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Steven Rosenberg]

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 9:24 AM, pgaltieri .  wrote:
> I'm asking this question out of frustration.  What's the point of filing
> bugs against Fedora at bugzilla.redhat.com when the response I get is "ask
> up stream they can help you"?

I had a very good experience when I filed a bug in Fedora against the
kernel (wouldn't boot in UEFI). I guess the kernel maintainers for
Fedora are also kernel hackers, so they made the fix upstream.

I guess bug reporting is a YMMV situation.

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Re: F20 has blurry font rendering

[Michael Cronenworth]

Michael Cronenworth wrote:

Your e-mail made me investigate again. Font rendering changes in freetype.


Just to update anyone that may (or may not, from the lack of comments) want to 
know:

FreeType in Fedora 20 uses a new font renderer and the Cantarell font, which is 
the default in Gnome, behaves badly with regard to font weight darkness and a 
few hinting errors.


There is a Red Hat bug[2] and upstream has been informed[3].

[1] http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/freetype/2014-01/msg00011.html
[2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1035486
[3] http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/freetype/2014-01/msg00012.html
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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:54:58AM -0800, pgaltieri . wrote:
> github account just so I could post asking for an update.  The general
> issue is there is an inconsistency with how Fedora bugs are dealt with.
> Some bugs are triaged and re-assigned to the appropriate component if
> necessary. Some are redirected upstream where they sit for weeks without
> being addressed, and others are not addressed at all.

This is an inevitable artifact of being a community-based project with no
strong ability to mandate that anyone do anything. It would be awesome if
everyone could be super-responsive with all of their bugs, and
knowledgeable about all of the code in the programs they package, and so on,
but people have different levels of involvement, commitment, other
priorities, and so on.

The best way to make this better is to pitch in where you can and set an
example.

> If it's preferred that bugs against products are reported upstream is there
> a document that maps Fedora components to upstream sites?

Well, sort of. Each package has a URL as part of its metadata, and you can
see that in the Fedora Package Database. For example, here:

https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/calc

But there's no general indication of whether bugs should be filed in a
different bugzilla -- nor, really, is there overall project agreement that
that's best practice. Adding something like that on a per-package basis to
the pkgdb is an interesting thought.

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Re: Freepbx for fedora?

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 01/14/2014 03:40 PM, Mark Haney wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 1/14/2014 3:31 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

Or equiv?

The freepbx has information on installation on Centos, but not for
fedora.

We have Asterisk 11 (what the Centos wiki shows), but how to
proceed. Or is there something 'better' than freepbx?

Also they are announcing Freepbx 12 on Asterisk 12.  When might
Asterisk 12 come out for Fedora?

I am looking to running this on the arm fedora distro.



We run FreePBX on CentOS 6.5 now and it works great.  May I ask why
you want to run it on Fedora?


Read my last sentence.  I want to run it on an ARM platform.  For some 
time, that will mean Fedora.  What ver of Fedora is Redhat 7 built on?  
Will there be an arm distro for it at some point?




I would think you could get the SRPMS and rebuild them in Fedora, but
that seems like a lot of work to me.


Yes it would be.

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Re: What is Gnome Screensaver?

[Stephen Gallagher]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 01/14/2014 03:21 PM, Steven Stern wrote:
> I have it installed, but AFAICT it doesn't do anything, nor is
> there a GUI to config it.
> 
> I've installed xscreensaver because I enjoy a few minutes of eye
> candy before the monitor is turned off.
> 
> 
> Please do not reply telling me you don't use gnome and I'm at fault
> or in some way deficient for using it. Thanks.
> 
> 

GNOME Screensaver is deprecated (as far as I'm aware) in GNOME in
favor of the GNOME Shell lock shield.

That being said, I believe it still exists in the repositories for use
with the Mate desktop, which uses it as both the standard screensaver
and the lock screen.
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Version: GnuPG v1
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlLVowgACgkQeiVVYja6o6NILQCdFsDfA+PkRGowBqDo5hjTGvO/
GcoAnRkj3MAa7Ro3BieZ8lXsNAC1An4H
=GIzz
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Re: Freepbx for fedora?

[Mark Haney]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 1/14/2014 3:31 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> Or equiv?
> 
> The freepbx has information on installation on Centos, but not for
> fedora.
> 
> We have Asterisk 11 (what the Centos wiki shows), but how to
> proceed. Or is there something 'better' than freepbx?
> 
> Also they are announcing Freepbx 12 on Asterisk 12.  When might
> Asterisk 12 come out for Fedora?
> 
> I am looking to running this on the arm fedora distro.
> 
> 

We run FreePBX on CentOS 6.5 now and it works great.  May I ask why
you want to run it on Fedora?

I would think you could get the SRPMS and rebuild them in Fedora, but
that seems like a lot of work to me.

- -- 
Mark Haney
Network Administrator/IT Support
Practichem
W:919-714-8428
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Freepbx for fedora?

[Robert Moskowitz]

Or equiv?

The freepbx has information on installation on Centos, but not for fedora.

We have Asterisk 11 (what the Centos wiki shows), but how to proceed.  
Or is there something 'better' than freepbx?


Also they are announcing Freepbx 12 on Asterisk 12.  When might Asterisk 
12 come out for Fedora?


I am looking to running this on the arm fedora distro.


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Re: example kickstart (ks.cfg)

[bruce]

Hey pete!

basically, starting to see exactly what a dual boot process is, how it
works, how the cfg file is setup, etc..

and as I understand the drive, once can create different partitions,
which can then be split to have multiple boot processes.

I was looking into how to actually have a process where the
masterside, can have an app, that can be run, which then invokes a
process on the "hidden" partition/boot process to then reinstall an OS
onto the master side..

so I'm really asking two questions:
1) where can i find a test kickstart ks.cfg file to see how to setup
dual boot systems, with pre/post actions for both os installs, and
2) is it possible to even have/create a "hidden"/non visible partition?

thanks


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Pete Travis  wrote:
>
> On Jan 14, 2014 1:04 PM, "bruce"  wrote:
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>> Looking to see how to craft a kickstart (ks.cfg) file by hand that
>> demonstrates the overall process of setting up a hidden partition, as
>> well as regular partitions on the drive.
>>
>> I'm looking to play with creating a regular install of centos (or
>> whatever) on the main partitions, as well as do some test pre/post
>> commands..
>>
>> At the same time, I'd like to create a hidden partition that I can
>> then do some pre/post functions to play with how the hidden partition
>> gets created.
>>
>> The end goal, would be a test process that would allow me to
>> "install"/boot into either side.
>>
>> As to the hidden partition, I'm assuming that this implies me creating
>> a partition that's not viewable from the df -h commands... Or am I
>> missing something here. Or, maybe a better question, is there a way to
>> create a partition that I can boot into that can't be seen by the
>> casual user using the usual system/disk cmds?
>> >>(Looking over different sites/ariticels via the net, not sure about this
>> >> part!)
>>
>> So, any pointers to sample cfg files would be helpful!
>>
>> thanks
>> --
>>
>
> OK, I'll bite. What is the purpose of the "hidden partition" ?
>
> --Pete
>
>
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What is Gnome Screensaver?

[Steven Stern]

I have it installed, but AFAICT it doesn't do anything, nor is there a
GUI to config it.

I've installed xscreensaver because I enjoy a few minutes of eye candy
before the monitor is turned off.


Please do not reply telling me you don't use gnome and I'm at fault or
in some way deficient for using it. Thanks.


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Re: example kickstart (ks.cfg)

[Pete Travis]

On Jan 14, 2014 1:04 PM, "bruce"  wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> Looking to see how to craft a kickstart (ks.cfg) file by hand that
> demonstrates the overall process of setting up a hidden partition, as
> well as regular partitions on the drive.
>
> I'm looking to play with creating a regular install of centos (or
> whatever) on the main partitions, as well as do some test pre/post
> commands..
>
> At the same time, I'd like to create a hidden partition that I can
> then do some pre/post functions to play with how the hidden partition
> gets created.
>
> The end goal, would be a test process that would allow me to
> "install"/boot into either side.
>
> As to the hidden partition, I'm assuming that this implies me creating
> a partition that's not viewable from the df -h commands... Or am I
> missing something here. Or, maybe a better question, is there a way to
> create a partition that I can boot into that can't be seen by the
> casual user using the usual system/disk cmds?
> >>(Looking over different sites/ariticels via the net, not sure about
this part!)
>
> So, any pointers to sample cfg files would be helpful!
>
> thanks
> --
>

OK, I'll bite. What is the purpose of the "hidden partition" ?

--Pete
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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:37 PM, pgaltieri .  wrote:

> I didn't pay for the internal testing group, but I still had to fix
> problems they reported.
>

Oh, come on.  The internal testing group is not working for free.  Are
they? They are your colleagues.  So the comparison is still off the mark.
In some cases, I have redirected bug reporters to upstream and in some
cases, I have filed it myself.  It really depends on the issue and whether
I already have a good working relationship with upstream, the complexity of
the issue, whether I can easily reproduce the problem etc.

>Even reporting upstream doesn't always help.  The problem I mentioned has
been > sitting upstream for 3 weeks with no response

Yes indeed.  That can happen.  What did you really expect? You are not
using a commercial product with any kind of support agreements.  Most of
the components you use in Fedora is written and maintained by volunteers
who might not respond quickly to a bug report if they are busy.  Even for
components that has been developed primarily by commercial organizations,
they aren't necessarily going to prioritize your issues.  In general, I
would recommend you file bug reports upstream if they aren't specific to
Fedora.

Rahul
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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Tom Horsley]

On Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:54:58 -0800
pgaltieri . wrote:

> Even reporting upstream doesn't always help.  The problem I mentioned has
> been sitting upstream for 3 weeks with no response.

3 weeks? That's like a nanosecond in linux bug time :-). I've got bugs
that are *years* old:

http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/game/foolish.html

> If it's preferred that bugs against products are reported upstream is there
> a document that maps Fedora components to upstream sites?

The closest you can get to that is to do a "rpm -q -i" which usually
has an upstream website which may even exist and have links you can follow
for bug reports.
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example kickstart (ks.cfg)

[bruce]

Hi.

Looking to see how to craft a kickstart (ks.cfg) file by hand that
demonstrates the overall process of setting up a hidden partition, as
well as regular partitions on the drive.

I'm looking to play with creating a regular install of centos (or
whatever) on the main partitions, as well as do some test pre/post
commands..

At the same time, I'd like to create a hidden partition that I can
then do some pre/post functions to play with how the hidden partition
gets created.

The end goal, would be a test process that would allow me to
"install"/boot into either side.

As to the hidden partition, I'm assuming that this implies me creating
a partition that's not viewable from the df -h commands... Or am I
missing something here. Or, maybe a better question, is there a way to
create a partition that I can boot into that can't be seen by the
casual user using the usual system/disk cmds?
>>(Looking over different sites/ariticels via the net, not sure about this 
>>part!)

So, any pointers to sample cfg files would be helpful!

thanks
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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[pgaltieri .]

Even reporting upstream doesn't always help.  The problem I mentioned has
been sitting upstream for 3 weeks with no response.  I had to create a
github account just so I could post asking for an update.  The general
issue is there is an inconsistency with how Fedora bugs are dealt with.
Some bugs are triaged and re-assigned to the appropriate component if
necessary. Some are redirected upstream where they sit for weeks without
being addressed, and others are not addressed at all.

If it's preferred that bugs against products are reported upstream is there
a document that maps Fedora components to upstream sites?

Paolo


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:

>
> On Jan 14, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Tethys  wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Chris Murphy 
> wrote:
> >
> >> If the bug is a packaging or dependency related bug, then use RHBZ. If
> it's
> >> a feature request, or broken feature that surely would affect every
> distro's
> >> instance of that component, then file it upstream. Often the Fedora
> package
> >> maintainer literally just makes sure the packaging is done correctly for
> >> Fedora.
> >
> > True, but equally the package often comes with a bunch of
> > Fedora-specific modifications.
>
> I don't know how common that is because it's a lot of effort to create
> even slight let alone significant derivatives of upstream work. But if it
> is such a package then you may be better off filing a bug against it in the
> RHBZ.
>
> > The end user has no way of knowing if
> > it's a bug in the base package or in the Fedora supplied patches.
> > Plus, my experience of reporting bugs upstream has invariably been to
> > be told "don't use the Fedora package, try compiling our latest
> > version from source and report back if you still have problems with
> > that". That's a poor experience for most end users.
>
> Make sure the Fedora maintainer is being cc'd on those. Even if upstream
> had a way to see RHBZ bugs, I don't see how your example is avoided. If
> they think they have a fix in a newer base, then that's what you'd have to
> do or suffer with the bug until the next release. Buck passing happens to
> me with some regularity on OS X. The difference is "build new upstream
> version located here and report back" isn't even an option. So sure,
> tedious, do it or don't do it, your choice. But I don't see how this could
> work any differently than it does now, so I don't really understand what
> you're suggesting.
>
>
> Chris Murphy
>
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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[pgaltieri .]

I didn't pay for the internal testing group, but I still had to fix
problems they reported.


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Steve Searle wrote:

> Around 05:24pm on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 (UK time), pgaltieri . wrote:
>
> > ask Linus I'm sure he can help you" ?  I guarantee you not very long.  It
> > was my responsibility to work with whoever I needed to to fix the
> > customer's problem, but the customer dealt with me until the problem was
> > fixed.
>
> I presume your customers paid (for) you. You don't pay the Fedora
> engineers.
>
> Steve
>
> --
>
> Website:  www.stevesearle.com
>
>  18:00:53 up 27 days,  1:30,  1 user,  load average: 0.02, 0.02, 0.00
>
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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Chris Murphy]

On Jan 14, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Tethys  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Chris Murphy  wrote:
> 
>> If the bug is a packaging or dependency related bug, then use RHBZ. If it's
>> a feature request, or broken feature that surely would affect every distro's
>> instance of that component, then file it upstream. Often the Fedora package
>> maintainer literally just makes sure the packaging is done correctly for
>> Fedora.
> 
> True, but equally the package often comes with a bunch of
> Fedora-specific modifications.

I don't know how common that is because it's a lot of effort to create even 
slight let alone significant derivatives of upstream work. But if it is such a 
package then you may be better off filing a bug against it in the RHBZ.

> The end user has no way of knowing if
> it's a bug in the base package or in the Fedora supplied patches.
> Plus, my experience of reporting bugs upstream has invariably been to
> be told "don't use the Fedora package, try compiling our latest
> version from source and report back if you still have problems with
> that". That's a poor experience for most end users.

Make sure the Fedora maintainer is being cc'd on those. Even if upstream had a 
way to see RHBZ bugs, I don't see how your example is avoided. If they think 
they have a fix in a newer base, then that's what you'd have to do or suffer 
with the bug until the next release. Buck passing happens to me with some 
regularity on OS X. The difference is "build new upstream version located here 
and report back" isn't even an option. So sure, tedious, do it or don't do it, 
your choice. But I don't see how this could work any differently than it does 
now, so I don't really understand what you're suggesting.


Chris Murphy

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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Darryl L. Pierce]

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 09:24:00AM -0800, pgaltieri . wrote:
> I'm asking this question out of frustration.  What's the point of filing
> bugs against Fedora at bugzilla.redhat.com when the response I get is "ask
> up stream they can help you"?
> 
> I filed a bug (1040518) against the Mate desktop, and was told to ask
> upstream for help because they can help me.  I don't understand this.  I
> installed Mate from the Fedora DVD and I therefore expect the Fedora
> engineers to act as buffer between me and upstream.  It should be their
> responsibility to work with the Mate engineers, not mine.

Their responsibility is in taking the upstream and packaging it for ease
of installation by the Fedora users.

*IF* they can help with marshalling bugs upstream, then great! If they
actually work with the upstream (as some of us do), even better!

But a lot of packagers are just that: packagers. Not developers. If you
file a bug that's not against packaging process itself then there may
not be much they can do for you except to say, "Sorry, can you take this
to the actual developers to work on?"

Though, IMO, they should participate in that as well so that, when a fix
is found, they can add it to the package.

> I've done tech support for Linux for many years.  Do you know how long I
> would have lasted if I told one of my customers "Oh, it's a kernel bug, go
> ask Linus I'm sure he can help you" ?  I guarantee you not very long.

Fedora packagers aren't paid. It's not a job. It's a service they're
providing *for free*.

>  It
> was my responsibility to work with whoever I needed to to fix the
> customer's problem, but the customer dealt with me until the problem was
> fixed.

A packager's job is to package code, not write it or fix the bugs.

-- 
Darryl L. Pierce 
http://mcpierce.fedorapeople.org/
"What do you care what people think, Mr. Feynman?"


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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Tethys]

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Chris Murphy  wrote:

> If the bug is a packaging or dependency related bug, then use RHBZ. If it's
> a feature request, or broken feature that surely would affect every distro's
> instance of that component, then file it upstream. Often the Fedora package
> maintainer literally just makes sure the packaging is done correctly for
> Fedora.

True, but equally the package often comes with a bunch of
Fedora-specific modifications. The end user has no way of knowing if
it's a bug in the base package or in the Fedora supplied patches.
Plus, my experience of reporting bugs upstream has invariably been to
be told "don't use the Fedora package, try compiling our latest
version from source and report back if you still have problems with
that". That's a poor experience for most end users.

Tet

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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Chris Murphy]

On Jan 14, 2014, at 10:24 AM, "pgaltieri ."  wrote:

> I'm asking this question out of frustration.  What's the point of filing bugs 
> against Fedora at bugzilla.redhat.com when the response I get is "ask up 
> stream they can help you"?

If the bug is a packaging or dependency related bug, then use RHBZ. If it's a 
feature request, or broken feature that surely would affect every distro's 
instance of that component, then file it upstream. Often the Fedora package 
maintainer literally just makes sure the packaging is done correctly for Fedora.

A mechanism to push bugs upstream has been talked about on devel@ several times 
in the past couple years, but I guess it's non-trivial since every upstream 
uses a different system.

> I've done tech support for Linux for many years.  Do you know how long I 
> would have lasted if I told one of my customers "Oh, it's a kernel bug, go 
> ask Linus I'm sure he can help you" ?

Almost always kernel bugs should be filed on the kernel.org BZ. But because RH 
has quite a number of kernel developers, they also tend to keep on top of RHBZ 
kernel bugs also, but it really depends on what aspect of the kernel so unless 
it's a major bug I think will affect many users, or is a Fedora blocker or 
freeze exception type bug, I file them on kernel.org or actually more often 
than that I post the bug report on the upstream's mailing list.


Chris Murphy

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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Steve Searle]

Around 05:24pm on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 (UK time), pgaltieri . wrote:

> ask Linus I'm sure he can help you" ?  I guarantee you not very long.  It
> was my responsibility to work with whoever I needed to to fix the
> customer's problem, but the customer dealt with me until the problem was
> fixed.

I presume your customers paid (for) you. You don't pay the Fedora
engineers.

Steve

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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak]

I filed a bug (1040518) against the Mate desktop, and was told to ask
upstream for help because they can help me.  I don't understand this.  I
installed Mate from the Fedora DVD and I therefore expect the Fedora
engineers to act as buffer between me and upstream.  It should be their
responsibility to work with the Mate engineers, not mine.


FOSS bug triaging is a slow, time-consuming process that relies on 
interested VOLUNTEERS.


Someone has triaged your bug report, and advised you of the best place 
to obtain support from the actual developers. Take the advice and report 
the bug where the developers are most likely to see your report and respond.


It is not always clear where the best place to report a particular bug 
is. Luckily, someone has taken the time to tell you.


The fedora bugzilla is generally best for packaging issues (e.g., 
missing dependencies, version X of foo broke version Y of bar). Upstream 
bugzillas are better for reports of program flaws.




I've done tech support for Linux for many years.  Do you know how long I
would have lasted if I told one of my customers


You aren't a Fedora customer. You are a Fedora user.

- Mike
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Re: pata disc / sata host converters

[Chris Murphy]

On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:12 AM, Ian Malone  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm looking at a motherboard update and have apparently left it too
> long: it's hard to find new MBs that have PATA connectors (there are a
> few, but choice is pretty limited). The hard drives for this machine
> are SATA, but the optical drives are PATA. There are a few PATA to
> SATA converters which basically plug onto the back of the drive and
> provide a SATA connection. Anyone tried these and found any issues in
> Linux?

I haven't tried it. I'd make sure that ATAPI is supported in whatever you buy 
because chances are that's the protocol the optical drives use. But then, why 
would these things even exist if they didn't support ATAPI, I'm not sure.

> It's not too dear to buy new optical drives, but I've got two and it
> seems a bit wasteful to throw them out when they in good condition.
> (Actually, given how cheap new ones are I wonder if they're better
> quality anyway.)

How often are you using this thing? I'd probably put it on a shelf and forget 
about it, and get a PATA-IDE-SATA-USB adapter if I do, and run a molex cable 
for power externally for power. Just stick the thing on top of the existing 
computer for the hour you'll use it. If you have any PATA hard drives you can 
use this adapter to suck the data off of them also.


Chris Murphy
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Re: "liveusb-creator" versus "livecd-iso-to-disk"?

[g]

hi rday,

On 01/14/2014 06:06 AM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
<>


except that it's not a college course, it's a *professional* linux
admin course as i make a living teaching linux and kernel
programming and device drivers and stuff like that to corporations,
so threatening to fail paying customers is probably a bad idea. :-)


oops. not aware it is a private course you are giving.

therefore, i imagine, because all laptops will be new, making a dump
image of drive partition might be safest thing to do. then if any
laptops oos partition gets hosed, a dump back would be an easy way
to restore oos.


--

peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Changed behavior when middle clicking URL in mutt

[Steve Searle]

I used to middle click a URL in a mutt email, and it would open in my
web browser (Firefox). Now when I do so it prints it, including all
headers. If I change my mutt config to include print="ask-yes", it
displays a "key is not bound message". Right clicking on the link
displays a (GUI) menu with various options, including "Open Link".

I run GNOME, and mutt is run in a GNOME terminal. I think this change
happened when I moved to Fedora 20, but I am not certain.

Can anyone advise how I can get back to the original behaviour?

Thanks

Steve

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Re: Root Frustrations (Solved)

[g]

hi mike,

On 01/14/2014 03:48 AM, mike wrote:

Thanks g!


welcome. glad it worked.


The actual line had PermitRootLogin Yes commented out!  I removed
the comment and all is well in Fedora 19.


i thought about that i went to bed. i almost got up to post again,
then i thought with you doing what all you are doing, you where
bound to realize about the "#" marks. glad to see i was right. ;=)


I will try this later on Fedora 20 and see if it works there also.

> If so I will upgrade the whole place to 20 sometime this month.

i would hope so. only reason not could be 'pam' as 'fedora'
suggested.

hope all goes equally well with f20.


Thanks Again g.


welcome again.

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tc.hago.

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.

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Re: what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[Tethys]

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 5:24 PM, pgaltieri .  wrote:

> I'm asking this question out of frustration.  What's the point of filing
> bugs against Fedora at bugzilla.redhat.com when the response I get is "ask
> up stream they can help you"?

At least you got a response. Half of the bugs I filed just remained
unlooked at until they were closed because the release against which
they were filed went out of support. Sad to say, but I mostly don't
bother filing them any more. I know it's an OS without support, and I
know I'm on my own when it goes wrong, but it really does feel like
and area where Fedora needs to improve. If Red Hat would sell me
support for RHEL at a sensible price, I'd be all over it. But they
won't, so that's not an option.

Tet

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what's the point of filing bugs against Fedora?

[pgaltieri .]

I'm asking this question out of frustration.  What's the point of filing
bugs against Fedora at bugzilla.redhat.com when the response I get is "ask
up stream they can help you"?

I filed a bug (1040518) against the Mate desktop, and was told to ask
upstream for help because they can help me.  I don't understand this.  I
installed Mate from the Fedora DVD and I therefore expect the Fedora
engineers to act as buffer between me and upstream.  It should be their
responsibility to work with the Mate engineers, not mine.

I've done tech support for Linux for many years.  Do you know how long I
would have lasted if I told one of my customers "Oh, it's a kernel bug, go
ask Linus I'm sure he can help you" ?  I guarantee you not very long.  It
was my responsibility to work with whoever I needed to to fix the
customer's problem, but the customer dealt with me until the problem was
fixed.

OK, rant now over, you can return to your regularly scheduled programming.

Paolo
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Re: Root Frustrations

[bruce]

Hey Mike,

You could always/perjaps use VNC, and remotely access the vnc app over
a secure ss tunnel, or just access VNC via it's regular/assigned vnc
port.

VNC works, gives you a complete desktop to run whatever you'd run on
the normal desktop. And yeah, the downside is it's slower!

-peace

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:27 AM, mike  wrote:
> Good question.  Basically a couple of specialized applications that I run
> because of work that essentially need to be invoked from a gui desktop due
> to the failings of the programs.
>
> I would guess that there might be someway to start a Gnome session from
> within a su session but, I am certainly not a high powered enough Linux user
> to know it or to correct the problems with the programs.
>
> Thus if  I can't login to a Gnome session I will have to stay with my old
> Fedora 14.
>
> Mike D.
>
> On 1/14/2014 2:09 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:25:59 -0700
>> mike  wrote:
>>>
>>> I have come to the conclusion that the powers that be have finally
>>> totally prevented root from logging into a graphic environment.
>>> Before the deluge of why root should not log in, I have some reasons
>>> that deal with the way I remote in from on the road (which is a lot).
>>
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Any ideas?
>>
>> What would be wrong with the usual method? Meaning, log in as an
>> ordinary user, and elevate privileges using "su -" in a terminal and
>> providing root password in a GUI when asked for it?
>>
>> I also remote login to my servers all the time, but I've never ever
>> needed to do it as root. What makes it so unavoidable for you?
>>
>> HTH, :-)
>> Marko
>>
>
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Re: Fedora 20 on i686 machine

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 15:46:45 +0200,
  Kevin Wilson  wrote:

Hi,
I installed today Fedora 20 on i686 machine.
When I ran uname -r I so that the kernel
I have is: 3.11.10-301.fc20.i686 + PAE

Is the PAE kernel for i686 the default one ? or maybe I missed
something in the installation ?


The break point for PAE is in the 1 to 2 GiB range. It isn't just for 
machines with over 4 GiB of memory.


As noted in the other reply, Lives use the non-PAE kernel. That is so they 
can run on more hardware.

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Re: No Catalyst in RPM Fusion for F20, no updates for F19 -- any ideas going forward

[Richard Shaw]

You could always start with the last available SRPM and see if you can
manage to update it...

Richard
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Re: "liveusb-creator" versus "livecd-iso-to-disk"?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Tue, 14 Jan 2014, Tim wrote:

> jdow:
> >> If students are involved I'd be inclined to find a fairly ironclad
> >> method of preventing access to the Windows disks. Otherwise, students
> >> being students, they will start unauthorized prying around on the
> >> attached Windows install and potentially corrupt it badly.
>
> Joe Zeff:
> > Indeed.  My suggestion would be to list that partition in /etc/fstab as
> > ro and limit sudo access to specific programs, not including any form of
> > mount.  And, password protect the CMOS or equivalent, to keep them from
> > booting from a USB key.
>
> I'd be inclined to *not* mount the Windows partitions, and prevent auto
> mounting, unless they actually required access to them.

  i'm not going to worry overly about the underlying windows install
-- as i mentioned, i was *asked* if i could avoid overwriting the
windows that's already on the laptops, so it's not a big deal if that
happens. they're all training laptops so they're used to being
reimaged on a regular basis, it's just easier if i can avoid it.

  more in a bit ...

rday

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Re: Fedora 20 on i686 machine

[Frank Murphy]

On Tue, 14 Jan 2014 15:46:45 +0200
Kevin Wilson  wrote:

> Hi,
> I installed today Fedora 20 on i686 machine.
> When I ran uname -r I so that the kernel
> I have is: 3.11.10-301.fc20.i686 + PAE
> 
> Is the PAE kernel for i686 the default one ? or maybe I missed
> something in the installation ?
> 
> regards,
> Kevin

It depends on whether you install from DVD or Live,
As with Live you get whats on the disc.


___
Regards,
Frank 
www.frankly3d.com

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Fedora 20 on i686 machine

[Kevin Wilson]

Hi,
I installed today Fedora 20 on i686 machine.
When I ran uname -r I so that the kernel
I have is: 3.11.10-301.fc20.i686 + PAE

Is the PAE kernel for i686 the default one ? or maybe I missed
something in the installation ?

regards,
Kevin
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Hi Res Screen help

[CS DBA]

Hi All;

I've installed Fedora 20 on a Dell XPS 15 with a 3200x1800 screen
It works well but I need a magnifying glass to see the text. I tried 
going into
system settings for KDE and setting the default dpi which sort of works 
for appps

but I still have a teeny tiny start menu and taskbar (and login screen)

If I set the screen resolution to something less than the 3200x1800 I 
get black lines on the sides...



The laptop has an Nvidia graphics card,

any thoughts on how to fix this?


Thanks in advance
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Re: pata disc / sata host converters

[Tom Horsley]

On Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:12:04 +
Ian Malone wrote:

> (Actually, given how cheap new ones are I wonder if they're better
> quality anyway.)

New ones almost certainly will handle higher speed media and
write faster (which would only matter if you write a lot of
stuff, mind you :-).
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pata disc / sata host converters

[Ian Malone]

Hi,

I'm looking at a motherboard update and have apparently left it too
long: it's hard to find new MBs that have PATA connectors (there are a
few, but choice is pretty limited). The hard drives for this machine
are SATA, but the optical drives are PATA. There are a few PATA to
SATA converters which basically plug onto the back of the drive and
provide a SATA connection. Anyone tried these and found any issues in
Linux?

It's not too dear to buy new optical drives, but I've got two and it
seems a bit wasteful to throw them out when they in good condition.
(Actually, given how cheap new ones are I wonder if they're better
quality anyway.)

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Re: No Catalyst in RPM Fusion for F20, no updates for F19 -- any ideas going forward

[Suvayu Ali]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:34:51PM -0800, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
> 
> If nobody cares, and nothing's going to change in terms of a packaged
> Catalyst, I'd sure like to know now.
> 
> But as a formerly happy Fedora user, this is pretty much a deal-breaker for 
> me.

Officially there will never be any closed source driver distributed by
Fedora (legal reasons).  It has always been maintained by the community
(RPMFusion etc); so someone has to step up.  Until such time, you are
out of luck.

That said, you can ask the former maintainer to help you get familiar
with packaging closed source drivers and get started.  Another option
would be ask on Fedora forums, or ask fedora.  Maybe there are some less
"official" solutions lurking out there.

GL

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Re: "liveusb-creator" versus "livecd-iso-to-disk"?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Mon, 13 Jan 2014, g wrote:

>
> to all who have replied.
>
> On 01/13/2014 11:52 AM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> <>
>
> just what makes you think that with all the students that will be
> using the laptops, that there will not be one or two, or more,
> that have experience with linux.
>
> all the 'this and that' to protect the laptops would be great and
> work if none know linux.
>
> children will be children and one of the things that they will do
> is try to see what they can get into and/or away with.
>
> therefore, i would suggest that students be told that if any
> laptop is muck up by a student or students, then said students
> will be failed for the entire course year. it may also be good
> to see if any additional punishment of being expelled for a
> length of time so that student will have to repeat grade.
>
> they are in respect damaging school property and they should be
> dealt with accordingly.
>
> many may say that i suggestion a bit of a harsh punishment, maybe
> so, but it  would most definitely be a deterrent.

  except that it's not a college course, it's a *professional* linux
admin course as i make a living teaching linux and kernel programming
and device drivers and stuff like that to corporations, so threatening
to fail paying customers is probably a bad idea. :-)

rday

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回复：Menu item icons

[fs783]

try reboot, or open the gnome program using "gnome" in the terminal. If this 
still can't work,u can try reinstall the gnome program

发自 Windows 8 网易邮箱

在 2014年01月13 17:29，"Marco Maccaferri" 写道：
Hi,

I have installed Fedora 20 and found that the menu items are no longer
displaying the icons. I recalled that this was a setting in Gnome but
the fixes I found are no longer working.

How can I restore the menu icons ?

Regards,
Marco.
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Root Frustrations (Solved)

[mike]

Thanks g!

The actual line had PermitRootLogin Yes commented out!  I removed the 
comment and all is well in Fedora 19.


I will try this later on Fedora 20 and see if it works there also. If so 
I will upgrade the whole place to 20 sometime this month.


Thanks Again g.

Mike D.

On 1/13/2014 11:49 PM, g wrote:



On 01/14/2014 12:25 AM, mike wrote:
<>


I have searched everywhere I can think of and cannot find a way to
allow root to login as the easy to fix block in gdm seems to be
gone.

Any ideas?


not sure, as i am not using f20.

so check /etc/ssh/sshd_config, look for line

  DenyUsers root

and/or

  PermitRootLogin no

to allow root, remove 'root' from "DenyUsers" and/or change 
"PermitRootLogin"

to 'yes'.

restart sshd with

  /etc/init.d/sshd restart


hth.



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Re: Root Frustrations

[mike]

Good question.  Basically a couple of specialized applications that I 
run because of work that essentially need to be invoked from a gui 
desktop due to the failings of the programs.


I would guess that there might be someway to start a Gnome session from 
within a su session but, I am certainly not a high powered enough Linux 
user to know it or to correct the problems with the programs.


Thus if  I can't login to a Gnome session I will have to stay with my 
old Fedora 14.


Mike D.
On 1/14/2014 2:09 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:

On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:25:59 -0700
mike  wrote:

I have come to the conclusion that the powers that be have finally
totally prevented root from logging into a graphic environment.
Before the deluge of why root should not log in, I have some reasons
that deal with the way I remote in from on the road (which is a lot).

[snip]

Any ideas?

What would be wrong with the usual method? Meaning, log in as an
ordinary user, and elevate privileges using "su -" in a terminal and
providing root password in a GUI when asked for it?

I also remote login to my servers all the time, but I've never ever
needed to do it as root. What makes it so unavoidable for you?

HTH, :-)
Marko



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Re: Root Frustrations

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:25:59 -0700
mike  wrote:
> I have come to the conclusion that the powers that be have finally 
> totally prevented root from logging into a graphic environment.
> Before the deluge of why root should not log in, I have some reasons
> that deal with the way I remote in from on the road (which is a lot).
[snip]
> Any ideas?

What would be wrong with the usual method? Meaning, log in as an
ordinary user, and elevate privileges using "su -" in a terminal and
providing root password in a GUI when asked for it?

I also remote login to my servers all the time, but I've never ever
needed to do it as root. What makes it so unavoidable for you?

HTH, :-)
Marko

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