Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
I believe USB data, at least USB-3 data is checksummed. Power is another issue. On Fri, 2019-03-08 at 01:12 +1030, Tim via users wrote: > Allegedly, on or about 2 March 2019, Robin Laing sent: > > Biggest villain is the cheap USB cables that cannot supply the > > necessary current. Even within some computers. > > Front panel sockets that have a flylead to the motherboard can be > really thin and weedy. Some are tiny ribbon cables. I wouldn't use > them for any data that's important. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
Allegedly, on or about 2 March 2019, Robin Laing sent: > Biggest villain is the cheap USB cables that cannot supply the > necessary current. Even within some computers. Front panel sockets that have a flylead to the motherboard can be really thin and weedy. Some are tiny ribbon cables. I wouldn't use them for any data that's important. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp Linux 4.16.11-100.fc26.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue May 22 20:02:12 UTC 2018 x86_64 Boilerplate: All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted. There is no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see the messages posted to the mailing list. When it comes to electronics, I'm slightly biased. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 at 07:05, Ed Greshko wrote: > > On 3/5/19 12:05 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: > > > > The disk in the drive tells you good or bad. I believe this > > is called CRC, but I may be wrong. > > I don't think it would be the drive's responsibility. > Due to these statements and the original problem I wondered, are the drives going into standby correctly? smartctl -i -n standby /dev/sda sda being the relevant drive. Just pondered if the USB is messing with the sleep state of the drive. (constant high pitch noise ugh). ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 3/5/19 12:05 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: > > The disk in the drive tells you good or bad. I believe this > is called CRC, but I may be wrong. I don't think it would be the drive's responsibility. The data packets sent on the USB bus are sent with a CRC (Cyclic Redundant Check) code. I would expect that it is the responsibility of the USB interface in the enclosure to do the checking and request re-transmission of the data if an error is detected. -- Right: I dislike the default color scheme Wrong: What idiot picked the default color scheme ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 3/4/19 7:37 PM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 05:06 -0800, Todd Chester via users wrote: On 2/28/19 4:41 PM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: I have persistent problems with small USB hard drives that I use for backup. The backup utility is the rsnapshot, which is set up to back up my system incrementally every day starting about 3:00am. The backup fails occasionally; when this happens the drive's file system is usually corrupted, which can be repaired using fsck. So far, there has been no perceptible loss of data What I have been lately, is building my own with drives with Rosewill backup cases (RX304-APU3-35B). I populate them with Western Digital drives. Had one Blue drive go bad. I have since switched to Red and Black drives and haven't had an issue. Is there any error detection on the USB link between the device being backed up and the Rosewill Box + Disk? Or do we just send the bits over the link and hope for the best? The disk in the drive tells you good or bad. I believe this is called CRC, but I may be wrong. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 05:06 -0800, Todd Chester via users wrote: > > On 2/28/19 4:41 PM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: > > I have persistent problems with small USB hard drives that I use for > > backup. The backup utility is the rsnapshot, which is set up to back up > > my system incrementally every day starting about 3:00am. The backup > > fails occasionally; when this happens the drive's file system is usually > > corrupted, which can be repaired using fsck. So far, there has been no > > perceptible loss of data > > What I have been lately, is building my own with drives > with Rosewill backup cases (RX304-APU3-35B). I populate > them with Western Digital drives. Had one Blue drive > go bad. I have since switched to Red and Black drives > and haven't had an issue. Is there any error detection on the USB link between the device being backed up and the Rosewill Box + Disk? Or do we just send the bits over the link and hope for the best? ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 3/3/19 5:33 PM, Fred Smith wrote: Being lazy, I just access it via SMB from all computers in the house (I'm the only one using Linux, everybody else is in bed with Windoze). Couldn't be bothered to configure NFS. I have found over the years that it is better to all use the same protocol if sharing files with other OS'es ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 3/3/19 3:53 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote: On Sun, Mar 03, 2019 at 03:30:09PM -0800, Community support for Fedora users wrote: In my experience, USB3 and Ethernet are about tied with each other for speed. It does not matter how fast your Ethernet goes, if your computer can not process the data. eSata runs at the speed of internal hard drive. (The Rosewill is Sata III.) The biggest problem I've encountered is that the third-party devices for external drives are cheaply made and sourced. Doesn't matter how good the hard drive is if the chipset and implementation of the docking station are cheesy. The Rosewill is the only one I have found that I like. IT costs more than a whole unit. It is a class act. The rest of then are filler for landfills. Complete garbage As far as NAS devices go, I find them pains in the neck. They always have some weird quirk that ... I have had that experience--especially in the earlier days (and *especially* with Buffalo). Buffalo us complete trash. I refuse to sell them. did one and wound up eating it and replacing it on my own dime. The problem, AFAICT, has been expertise on the vendor's part. All of them were--and are--dedicated embedded Linux boxes, relying on Samba. Every single one. Some were because the implementors were overstating the compatibility and capability of the then-current version of Samba. Others were because they simply didn't understand how to configure an embedded Linux server. The third problem was a bad GUI implementation between you and the underlying Linux/Samba OS. Surprisingly, rarely did I confirm the hardware itself was at fault (although that may well have been in the mix.) This has led me to stick with any that HAS worked. Even though there are some quirks, properly implemented current Synology NAS boxes have proven reliable. There are some implementation quirks--but after dealing with systemd, I can't criticize anyone for bad decisions. Certainly none I've not been able to ignore or work around. I prefer just setting up a Samba server instead. That's effectively what a NAS is. The problem with setting up a RYO Samba server is that you now have another server to manage, with all the downsides that implies. Not a big deal for a home system, but I have to roll these out to dozens of client sites--I simply don't have the time and inclination to build yet another system. IF the NAS works, it's the better choice. Does not mean that all NAS devices are bad, just that I haven't found one I like yet. Their big problem is the same problem as USB hard drives. They are meant to be cheap. No one even looks at the expensive ones. And Samba you get to control the hardware and software around it. What do you mean by expensive? A Synology RAID1 DS218+ is about $325-$350, less disks. $600 and up https://www.g-technology.com/products/desktop/g-raid-tb3#0G05748 For home, that might be a dealbreaker; for a business looking for cheap external storage (much cheaper than a 10-15K RPM extension to their internal server RAID10 storage), not at all. I look at it this way, when you need your data back, you need it back. The last thing you want to deal with is an extra layer of complication. Absolutely. Data is expensive, hardware is cheap. For backup or storage, failure is not an option. Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Sun, Mar 03, 2019 at 03:30:09PM -0800, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: > On 3/2/19 8:24 AM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: > >On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 05:06 -0800, Todd Chester via users wrote: > >>What I have been lately, is building my own with drives > >>with Rosewill backup cases (RX304-APU3-35B). I populate > >>them with Western Digital drives > > > >What are the advantages/disadvantages of this approach vs. NAS. > > > >Here's what looks obvious: Rosewill is cheaper than NAS. However > >NAS might have a faster interface. Data transfer over ethernet is > >checksummed; what about data transfer over USB? > > In my experience, USB3 and Ethernet are about tied with each other > for speed. It does not matter how fast your Ethernet goes, if > your computer can not process the data. eSata runs at the speed of > internal hard drive. (The Rosewill is Sata III.) That seems to be true, based on small evidence. I recently had to back up two 1TB drives, using dd and the only thing I had with enough space was the Synology NAS down at the other end of the ethernet cable (with a switch in between). One gig ethernet, but operating on inexpensive hardware, so I was surprised that when coying both items at the same time, dd reported each one was doing about 52MB/s (which isn't far from a gig/sec, counting both copies going simultaneously). a few days later (due to circumstances beyond my control) I had to do it all again, but this time I had a WD 4TB USB drive to copy it to, assuming it would be faster. Guess what! it wasn't. just about 50 MB/s according to dd. Made me wish I had purchased a bare sata drive instead and plugged it into the computer. > > As far as NAS devices go, I find them pains in the neck. They > always have some weird quirk that ... I had one that > would not speak to Cobian Backup no matter what. Another > that would not delete directories when asked. And > yet another that would not talk to a Mac, even though I > was staring at the directions, along with an Apple Tech > remotely logged in. I prefer just setting up a Samba server > instead. > > Does not mean that all NAS devices are bad, just that I haven't > found one I like yet. Their big problem is the same problem as USB > hard drives. They are meant to be cheap. No one even > looks at the expensive ones. My cheap Synology NAS box (DS216j) is a low-end device and it has (so far--knock on wood) been reliable, with two 3TB WD reds inside, has been great. Being lazy, I just access it via SMB from all computers in the house (I'm the only one using Linux, everybody else is in bed with Windoze). Couldn't be bothered to configure NFS. Looked at configuring iSCSI but it looked like a lot of work for little or no benefit, especially since we just use it so all of us can store stuff on it, not for backups. -- Fred Smith -- fre...@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us - I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. -- Philippians 4:13 --- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Sun, Mar 03, 2019 at 03:30:09PM -0800, Community support for Fedora users wrote: > In my experience, USB3 and Ethernet are about tied with each other > for speed. It does not matter how fast your Ethernet goes, if > your computer can not process the data. eSata runs at the speed of > internal hard drive. (The Rosewill is Sata III.) The biggest problem I've encountered is that the third-party devices for external drives are cheaply made and sourced. Doesn't matter how good the hard drive is if the chipset and implementation of the docking station are cheesy. > As far as NAS devices go, I find them pains in the neck. They > always have some weird quirk that ... I have had that experience--especially in the earlier days (and *especially* with Buffalo). The problem, AFAICT, has been expertise on the vendor's part. All of them were--and are--dedicated embedded Linux boxes, relying on Samba. Every single one. Some were because the implementors were overstating the compatibility and capability of the then-current version of Samba. Others were because they simply didn't understand how to configure an embedded Linux server. The third problem was a bad GUI implementation between you and the underlying Linux/Samba OS. Surprisingly, rarely did I confirm the hardware itself was at fault (although that may well have been in the mix.) This has led me to stick with any that HAS worked. Even though there are some quirks, properly implemented current Synology NAS boxes have proven reliable. There are some implementation quirks--but after dealing with systemd, I can't criticize anyone for bad decisions. Certainly none I've not been able to ignore or work around. > I prefer just setting up a Samba server instead. That's effectively what a NAS is. The problem with setting up a RYO Samba server is that you now have another server to manage, with all the downsides that implies. Not a big deal for a home system, but I have to roll these out to dozens of client sites--I simply don't have the time and inclination to build yet another system. IF the NAS works, it's the better choice. > Does not mean that all NAS devices are bad, just that I haven't > found one I like yet. Their big problem is the same problem as USB > hard drives. They are meant to be cheap. No one even > looks at the expensive ones. What do you mean by expensive? A Synology RAID1 DS218+ is about $325-$350, less disks. For home, that might be a dealbreaker; for a business looking for cheap external storage (much cheaper than a 10-15K RPM extension to their internal server RAID10 storage), not at all. > I look at it this way, when you need your data back, you need it > back. The last thing you want to deal with is an extra layer > of complication. Absolutely. Data is expensive, hardware is cheap. For backup or storage, failure is not an option. Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 3/2/19 8:24 AM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 05:06 -0800, Todd Chester via users wrote: What I have been lately, is building my own with drives with Rosewill backup cases (RX304-APU3-35B). I populate them with Western Digital drives What are the advantages/disadvantages of this approach vs. NAS. Here's what looks obvious: Rosewill is cheaper than NAS. However NAS might have a faster interface. Data transfer over ethernet is checksummed; what about data transfer over USB? In my experience, USB3 and Ethernet are about tied with each other for speed. It does not matter how fast your Ethernet goes, if your computer can not process the data. eSata runs at the speed of internal hard drive. (The Rosewill is Sata III.) As far as NAS devices go, I find them pains in the neck. They always have some weird quirk that ... I had one that would not speak to Cobian Backup no matter what. Another that would not delete directories when asked. And yet another that would not talk to a Mac, even though I was staring at the directions, along with an Apple Tech remotely logged in. I prefer just setting up a Samba server instead. Does not mean that all NAS devices are bad, just that I haven't found one I like yet. Their big problem is the same problem as USB hard drives. They are meant to be cheap. No one even looks at the expensive ones. I look at it this way, when you need your data back, you need it back. The last thing you want to deal with is an extra layer of complication. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 3/1/19 5:03 PM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 05:06 -0800, Todd Chester via users wrote: On 2/28/19 4:41 PM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: I have persistent problems with small USB hard drives that I use for backup. What I have been lately, is building my own with drives with Rosewill backup cases (RX304-APU3-35B). I populate them with Western Digital drives. Had one Blue drive go bad. I have since switched to Red and Black drives and haven't had an issue. Cost of a Seagate Ultra Plus Slim is $60.00 Cost of a Rosewill case + WD Red drive is $116.00 Rosewill+WD is almost twice the cost of Seagate. On the other hand Rosewill+WD stands a good chance of working for a while, but the Seagate will probably fail soon. So it looks like I'm building a box. Good exposition on why the single units fail so much. There is no expense they have not shaved. Also, there is a considerable cost in constantly replacing units. And not to mention if you need your data back and it is not there. I tore a WD el-cheap-o drive case apart to get at the el-cheap-o drive inside so I could mount it myself on a USB3-SATA adapter and recover a customers data. He got really, really lucky. On the Rosewill case, also note that you can go eSATA, which will give you native hard drive speed, just like you mounted the drive inside your computer. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Sat, 2019-03-02 at 08:07 -0800, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: > Is anything better than printouts on archival quality paper? Punchcards! -- uname -rsvp Linux 3.10.0-957.5.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Fri Feb 1 14:54:57 UTC 2019 x86_64 Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted. I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 01/03/2019 18:02, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 07:02 -0500, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Jonathan Ryshpan writes: The latest drive is a replacement given to me by Seagate; they said that the drive had failed and had to be replaced, which they did, since it was still under warranty. It's not exactly new by refurbished. It started to beep after being used for about 4 days. Does anyone have an idea what's going on or how to prevent it? The fact that this supposedly happens with drives from different manufacturers suggests that the problem is not caused by the drives themselves. How are you connecting these USB drives, into the system itself, or via the USB hub. That's the only common factor, so that would be a far more likely cause of this, and the physical proximity just leads you to believe that it's coming from the USB drives. The drives are connected directly to the computer via a USB link. I have suspected that the problem is related to my system, however Todd Chester in another reply to my posting says that these cheap drives are not to be trusted. I'm going to take his advice and build my own box. Having seen so many strange things with computers and power, I, like many don't trust USB power to run a drive. A powered hub may be better. I have a USB meter that can tell me the voltage and current being delivered via a USB port. I have seen the voltage drop under load, enough to cause devices to stutter from lack of current to keep them running. Biggest villain is the cheap USB cables that cannot supply the necessary current. Even within some computers. Something like this. https://www.amazon.ca/Lysignal-Charger-Multimeter-Voltmeter-Detector/dp/B073WVT96B/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=usb+voltmeter&qid=1551561277&s=gateway&sr=8-5 I have USB hubs but they are all self powered. Again, many USB hubs also have power blocks and cheap cables that still restrict the amount of power to the hub. Also, try to make sure that the backup are on their own USB controller. Less chance of a device taking over the USB controller chip. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Sat, Mar 02, 2019 at 11:00:46AM -0700, Joe Zeff wrote: > Hieroglyphics also work well. Ah...not so much. Remember what happened to Akhenaten. And yes, I said I'd shut up... -- Dave Ihnat ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 03/02/2019 09:34 AM, Dave Ihnat wrote: There really isn't an answer. Historically, cuneiform clay tablets seem to be a good bet, but data density sucks. Hieroglyphics also work well. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Sat, Mar 02, 2019 at 08:07:21AM -0800, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: > On a related topic, what can be recommended for archival storage -- > decades or maybe even centuries? ... You, my friend, have named an issue that is still unresolved. NASA bet on a gold-plated copper record. Researchers are looking into actually using DNA (so THAT is what all our junk DNA is for--we're nothing but some kid's music collection...) There really isn't an answer. Historically, cuneiform clay tablets seem to be a good bet, but data density sucks. And as this is almost the definition of off-topic, I will scurry away, my fancy tickled. -- Dave Ihnat ign...@dminet.com ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 05:06 -0800, Todd Chester via users wrote: > What I have been lately, is building my own with drives > with Rosewill backup cases (RX304-APU3-35B). I populate > them with Western Digital drives What are the advantages/disadvantages of this approach vs. NAS. Here's what looks obvious: Rosewill is cheaper than NAS. However NAS might have a faster interface. Data transfer over ethernet is checksummed; what about data transfer over USB? ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 08:07 -0600, Dave Ihnat wrote: > On Fri, Mar 01, 2019 at 05:06:38AM -0800, Community support for Fedora users > wrote: > > I have noticed that my customers who go out and buy external > > USB mechanical drive drives for backup never have any > > "last". They always go bad... On a related topic, what can be recommended for archival storage -- decades or maybe even centuries? Magnetic disks and tape lose data, so do CDROMS, and flash memory, cloud backup requires reliable payment and providers can go out of business, technologies change, etc. Is anything better than printouts on archival quality paper? ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 8:07 AM Dave Ihnat wrote: > > Synology NAS--usually a 2-disk unit--using Ironwolf NAS drives. (You can > use WD Red depending on performance, price and preference.) Size to the > client's server(s), mount using iSCSI. StarTech (or other vendor--find > your sweet spot) USB 3.0 HDD docking station, and a rotation of bare > Ironwolf drives. Back up to the NAS during the week, and once/week to > the current removable HDD. Client only has to remember to swap one disk, > once/week; most will do that. > > You get backup in depth, much more reliable drives, and a stable and > reliable primary backup. And yes, it costs some money, but far less than > tape. > This is my home backup solution (so $$$ matter). - Refurbished SFF from ebay ($100 3 years ago, Core2 Quad) - Maxed out memory (8GB $40) - 1TB HD upgrade ($80 at the time?) - CentOS 7 with BackupPC 4.X (from my COPR, CentOS is on 3.x) I don't do full system backups, it takes up too much space and I don't want to backup stuff I can just reinstall. Currently have 6 hosts backed up (including the server itself) with the system and backups all on one drive (it only has room for 1 3.5" drive) I have 1.7TB of data compressed and deduplicated to 158GB. I'll then do a tar.gz export of critical stuff from time to time or for family pictures burn them to Bluray (25GB discs) and store them in the fire safe. I bought some 50GB discs but I have never gotten them to work. Always creates coasters which switching layers while burning. Thanks, Richard ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Sat, 2019-03-02 at 11:23 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: > On 3/2/19 9:57 AM, Tim via users wrote: > > I prefer NAS (doing the same kind of thing over the LAN). > > Indeed. Unless one has a need to carry around the drive I wouldn't use a USB > enclosure. > And, if I did have to carry around a drive, I'd use a SSD and not a HDD. > > I've had a 2-Bay NAS for home use for, I think, 6 years. I utilize WD-Red > 3TB drives that > retail for about USD100 and I think the NAS (the model I have has been > superseded by a new > model) I have cost me around USD350. > > In the 6 years I've had the NAS only 1 drive has failed. And, of course, it > failed after > the warranty expired. Same here, but both my Seagate drives failed (at different times, luckily) and I replaced them with WD Blacks. poc ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 3/1/19 5:00 PM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 11:46 +, Tim Waugh wrote: Have you looked at the SMART data for these drives? It might be worth paying particular attention to the "Reallocation Event Count" and "Reallocated Sectors Count". If the first is larger than the second (i.e. there were failed reallocation attempts), it could explain the filesystem corruption. I don't think smart data is available for this drive, but I'd like to be proved wrong. Advice is welcome: Unfortunately, some (most?) USB interfaces don't support passing SMART requests. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 3/2/19 9:57 AM, Tim via users wrote: > > I prefer NAS (doing the same kind of thing over the LAN). Indeed. Unless one has a need to carry around the drive I wouldn't use a USB enclosure. And, if I did have to carry around a drive, I'd use a SSD and not a HDD. I've had a 2-Bay NAS for home use for, I think, 6 years. I utilize WD-Red 3TB drives that retail for about USD100 and I think the NAS (the model I have has been superseded by a new model) I have cost me around USD350. In the 6 years I've had the NAS only 1 drive has failed. And, of course, it failed after the warranty expired. -- Right: I dislike the default color scheme Wrong: What idiot picked the default color scheme ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 2/3/19 11:32 am, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: The drives are connected directly to the computer via a USB link. I have suspected that the problem is related to my system, however Todd Chester in another reply to my posting says that these cheap drives are not to be trusted. I'm going to take his advice and build my own box. I've no faith in USB-connected drives, either... They may have a poor grade of disc drive inside them They overheat They get banged about Computers are poor at supplying them with enough power over USB Wall-warts are poor at supplying adequate power, too Computers are poor at prolonged scads of data flowing over USB The USB enclosures often don't support SMART, so you can't check their health When something goes doolally, files get corrupted I prefer NAS (doing the same kind of thing over the LAN). They're self-powered If there is a data interruption, the current file in transit gets aborted instead of corrupted Everything on the LAN can directly access the drive ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 05:06 -0800, Todd Chester via users wrote: > > On 2/28/19 4:41 PM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: > > I have persistent problems with small USB hard drives that I use for > > backup. > > What I have been lately, is building my own with drives > with Rosewill backup cases (RX304-APU3-35B). I populate > them with Western Digital drives. Had one Blue drive > go bad. I have since switched to Red and Black drives > and haven't had an issue. Cost of a Seagate Ultra Plus Slim is $60.00 Cost of a Rosewill case + WD Red drive is $116.00 Rosewill+WD is almost twice the cost of Seagate. On the other hand Rosewill+WD stands a good chance of working for a while, but the Seagate will probably fail soon. So it looks like I'm building a box. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 07:02 -0500, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Jonathan Ryshpan writes: > > > The latest drive is a replacement given to me by Seagate; they said that > > the > > drive had failed and had to be replaced, which they did, since it was still > > > > under warranty. It's not exactly new by refurbished. It started to beep > > after > > being used for about 4 days. > > > > > > Does anyone have an idea what's going on or how to prevent it? > > The fact that this supposedly happens with drives from different > manufacturers suggests that the problem is not caused by the drives > themselves. How are you connecting these USB drives, into the system itself, > or via the USB hub. That's the only common factor, so that would be a far > more likely cause of this, and the physical proximity just leads you to > believe that it's coming from the USB drives. The drives are connected directly to the computer via a USB link. I have suspected that the problem is related to my system, however Todd Chester in another reply to my posting says that these cheap drives are not to be trusted. I'm going to take his advice and build my own box. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Fri, 2019-03-01 at 11:46 +, Tim Waugh wrote: > On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 00:42, Jonathan Ryshpan > wrote: > > The drive also produces an occasional beeping sound: pitch about > > 340 cps (my best guess using a tuner), lasting about 250 msec. The > > beeps happen when the drive is in use, particularly when it's busy, > > and never when the drive is starting up. > > Have you looked at the SMART data for these drives? It might be worth > paying particular attention to the "Reallocation Event Count" and > "Reallocated Sectors Count". If the first is larger than the second > (i.e. there were failed reallocation attempts), it could explain the > filesystem corruption. I don't think smart data is available for this drive, but I'd like to be proved wrong. Advice is welcome: # smartctl -a -d scsi /dev/sdb smartctl 6.6 2017-11-05 r4594 [x86_64-linux-4.20.11-200.fc29.x86_64] (local build) Copyright (C) 2002-17, Bruce Allen, Christian Franke, www.smartmontools.org === START OF INFORMATION SECTION === Vendor: Seagate Product: Ultra Slim GD Revision: 0108 Compliance: SPC-4 User Capacity:2,000,398,933,504 bytes [2.00 TB] Logical block size: 512 bytes LU is fully provisioned Logical Unit id: 0x3e4137565731325a Serial number:NA7VW12Z Device type: disk Local Time is:Fri Mar 1 12:18:40 2019 PST SMART support is: Unavailable - device lacks SMART capability. === START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION === Current Drive Temperature: 0 C Drive Trip Temperature:0 C Error Counter logging not supported No self-tests have been logged ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 3/1/19 6:07 AM, Dave Ihnat wrote: I've noticed three consistent theme over the years: o Tape is still*expensive* to set up and maintain. o Clients hate tape. o Clients won't change tapes or disks. AMEN! Consultants hate tapes too. And they are slower than the dickens trying to recover anything. I use to use those 8 mm tapes years and years ago. I wrote nagware to eMail them and then me after 30 minutes if they don't change their disks. Calling them a few times does the trick. I also hae a scheme that tells me if they actually put a different disk in and nags them about that at the same time. Hay! Nagging is kinds of fun! :-) ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Fri, Mar 01, 2019 at 05:06:38AM -0800, Community support for Fedora users wrote: > I have noticed that my customers who go out and buy external > USB mechanical drive drives for backup never have any > "last". They always go bad. Some so bad that they hang > the USB port and the computer won't boot or is really > slow. SMART sheds tears. The drives and just *TOO* cheap. The retail-grade drives in enclosures, yes, often. > What I have been lately, is building my own with drives > with Rosewill backup cases (RX304-APU3-35B). I populate > them with Western Digital drives. Had one Blue drive > go bad. I have since switched to Red and Black drives > and haven't had an issue. I'm a consultant focusing on SMB, and have taken a different tack for businesses. I've noticed three consistent theme over the years: o Tape is still *expensive* to set up and maintain. o Clients hate tape. o Clients won't change tapes or disks. Given this, after some success with USB and eSATA attached RAID arrays--until the cheap overseas electronics got too cheap and unreliable--I've hit on my final model. Synology NAS--usually a 2-disk unit--using Ironwolf NAS drives. (You can use WD Red depending on performance, price and preference.) Size to the client's server(s), mount using iSCSI. StarTech (or other vendor--find your sweet spot) USB 3.0 HDD docking station, and a rotation of bare Ironwolf drives. Back up to the NAS during the week, and once/week to the current removable HDD. Client only has to remember to swap one disk, once/week; most will do that. You get backup in depth, much more reliable drives, and a stable and reliable primary backup. And yes, it costs some money, but far less than tape. Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On 2/28/19 4:41 PM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: I have persistent problems with small USB hard drives that I use for backup. The backup utility is the rsnapshot, which is set up to back up my system incrementally every day starting about 3:00am. The backup fails occasionally; when this happens the drive's file system is usually corrupted, which can be repaired using fsck. So far, there has been no perceptible loss of data. The drive also produces an occasional beeping sound: pitch about 340 cps (my best guess using a tuner), lasting about 250 msec. The beeps happen when the drive is in use, particularly when it's busy, and never when the drive is starting up. The problem has happened on at least 4 different drives: WD My Passport 1 Tb Seagate Backup Plus 2 Tb Seagate Ultra Slim 2 Tb Seagate Ultra Slim 2 Tb (replacement for above) It starts about 6 months to a year after the drive goes into use and persists thereafter. When the problem gets bad, I replace the drive. The latest drive is a replacement given to me by Seagate; they said that the drive had failed and had to be replaced, which they did, since it was still under warranty. It's not exactly new by refurbished. It started to beep after being used for about 4 days. Does anyone have an idea what's going on or how to prevent it? Many Thanks - Jon Hi Jonathan, I have noticed that my customers who go out and buy external USB mechanical drive drives for backup never have any "last". They always go bad. Some so bad that they hang the USB port and the computer won't boot or is really slow. SMART sheds tears. The drives and just *TOO* cheap. What I have been lately, is building my own with drives with Rosewill backup cases (RX304-APU3-35B). I populate them with Western Digital drives. Had one Blue drive go bad. I have since switched to Red and Black drives and haven't had an issue. The Rosewell cases come with USB 3.0 and eSATA including an internal eSata bracket and eSata and USB cables. And a temperature controlled cooling fan, which add a YUGE amount to reliability. They are a class act. El-chepo-o external drive just cook in place, probably why they go bad so fast. Oh and be careful of WD's tech support. It STINKS. But their drives are the most available at my suppliers and their reliability is better than Seagate, based on cloud studies I have seen. HTH, -T ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
Jonathan Ryshpan writes: The latest drive is a replacement given to me by Seagate; they said that the drive had failed and had to be replaced, which they did, since it was still under warranty. It's not exactly new by refurbished. It started to beep after being used for about 4 days. Does anyone have an idea what's going on or how to prevent it? The fact that this supposedly happens with drives from different manufacturers suggests that the problem is not caused by the drives themselves. How are you connecting these USB drives, into the system itself, or via the USB hub. That's the only common factor, so that would be a far more likely cause of this, and the physical proximity just leads you to believe that it's coming from the USB drives. pgpMJRcrmCJpx.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: (OT) Beeping drives used for backup
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 00:42, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: > The drive also produces an occasional beeping sound: pitch about 340 cps > (my best guess using a tuner), lasting about 250 msec. The beeps happen > when the drive is in use, particularly when it's busy, and never when the > drive is starting up. > Have you looked at the SMART data for these drives? It might be worth paying particular attention to the "Reallocation Event Count" and "Reallocated Sectors Count". If the first is larger than the second (i.e. there were failed reallocation attempts), it could explain the filesystem corruption. Here is another experience of chirping, and why I mentioned those SMART values specifically: https://www.mail-archive.com/dorset@mailman.lug.org.uk/msg08242.html Tim. */ ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
(OT) Beeping drives used for backup
I have persistent problems with small USB hard drives that I use for backup. The backup utility is the rsnapshot, which is set up to back up my system incrementally every day starting about 3:00am. The backup fails occasionally; when this happens the drive's file system is usually corrupted, which can be repaired using fsck. So far, there has been no perceptible loss of data. The drive also produces an occasional beeping sound: pitch about 340 cps (my best guess using a tuner), lasting about 250 msec. The beeps happen when the drive is in use, particularly when it's busy, and never when the drive is starting up. The problem has happened on at least 4 different drives:WD My Passport 1 Tb Seagate Backup Plus 2 Tb Seagate Ultra Slim 2 TbSeagate Ultra Slim 2 Tb (replacement for above)It starts about 6 months to a year after the drive goes into use and persists thereafter. When the problem gets bad, I replace the drive. The latest drive is a replacement given to me by Seagate; they said that the drive had failed and had to be replaced, which they did, since it was still under warranty. It's not exactly new by refurbished. It started to beep after being used for about 4 days. Does anyone have an idea what's going on or how to prevent it? Many Thanks - Jon ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
