Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 2:24 AM, Tim wrote:

>
> Or a security concern...  Some people install everything under the sun,
> and you really don't want a telnet server running.
>

Unlike say Debian,  Fedora does not default to running services just
because a package is installed.  There are very few exceptions to that
guideline and it has to be explicitly approved by the packaging committee.
The default services are listed here.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Starting_services_by_default

If you find anything else running by default, that is a bug.

Rahul
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Ian Malone]

On 5 May 2015 at 19:57, Antonio Olivares  wrote:
>
>> Well, I'd count the "systemd and docker don't work together well"
>> bit with some degree of skepticism. But, on the larger point:
>>
>> Fedora doesn't strive to be bleeding edge. We strive to be the first to
>> offer the newest and best of _functional_ open source software. And
>> that's a hard balance to get right — sometimes, eager contributors and
>> developers get things into Fedora that _aren't_ quite ready. Other
>> times, we're too conservative.
>>
>> But I also don't see systemd as a crux of this. Another hot new minimal
>> startup distribution, CoreOS, is _based around_ systemd.
>>
>> In any case, the Fedora.next initiative
>>  is an attempt to work on
>> this balance in new and different ways, with Fedora Cloud in particular
>> being a space for experimenting with some of these new concepts (as
>> that's sort of the incubation space for new OS technologies in the
>> world at large right now).
>>
>>
>>> Debian--> Devuan
>>> Fedora --> Fedoruan?
>>
>> If you're interested in exploring a remix like that, see
>>  (although note that "Fedoruan"
>> is probably not acceptable with our trademark guidelines).

>
> I do not know where I had seen CoreOS?  Maybe I confused it with Tiny Core?  
> At distrowatch, I had seen a distro based on Fedora
>
> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20150427
>
> http://chapeaulinux.org/
>
> I am surprised that it has not gotten more coverage?  It is a Fedora Remix 
> too! , like old Fedora Remix by Rahul and one by Valent Turkovic.
>

No, this is CoreOS https://coreos.com/ see e.g.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/05/05/coreos_fest_roundtable/

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Re: systemd and chkconfig and change [was Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?]

[Tom Horsley]

On Wed, 06 May 2015 09:30:35 +0200
Jon Ingason wrote:

> You can still use "grep/awk/sed/..." :-)

Not if the binary files get corrupted. Most of the time,
you can't even boot when that happens :-(
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Re: systemd and chkconfig and change [was Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?]

[Suvayu Ali]

On Wed, May 06, 2015 at 09:30:35AM +0200, Jon Ingason wrote:
> Den 2015-05-06 08:55, fra...@hanzlici.cz skrev:
> >> ... Other parts are
> >> actually really cool, like management of services throughout their
> >> whole lifetime, relevant log messages automatically shown for
> >> "systemctl status",
> > 
> > I am personally convinced that journalctl and its binary logs are one of
> > the big systemd mistakes. And that grep/awk/sed/... over classical text
> > logs always will be more poverfull than systemd journal stuff.
> > 
> You can still use "grep/awk/sed/..." :-)

That is a deceptive similarity.  I find journalctl output too verbose at
times.  Also it can just be a lot in terms of quantity (how far back the
logs go).  Under such circumstances, using the "old" methods can be bit
of a chore.

One would then say filter the output of journalctl (or rotate the
journal)!  But the documentation for that is in such a terrible state,
as in very hard to comprehend for someone not familiar with internal
details, it's almost funny.  See this message for a rather egregious
example:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.general/440292/focus=440647

The rest of the thread is also very instructive.

One of these days if I find some time, I'll file a bug report for
documentation.  But if someone else wants to, please go ahead.

Cheers,

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Re: systemd and chkconfig and change [was Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?]

[Jon Ingason]

Den 2015-05-06 08:55, fra...@hanzlici.cz skrev:
>> ... Other parts are
>> actually really cool, like management of services throughout their
>> whole lifetime, relevant log messages automatically shown for
>> "systemctl status",
> 
> I am personally convinced that journalctl and its binary logs are one of
> the big systemd mistakes. And that grep/awk/sed/... over classical text
> logs always will be more poverfull than systemd journal stuff.
> 
You can still use "grep/awk/sed/..." :-)

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Re: systemd and chkconfig and change [was Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?]

[franta]

> ... Other parts are
> actually really cool, like management of services throughout their
> whole lifetime, relevant log messages automatically shown for
> "systemctl status",

I am personally convinced that journalctl and its binary logs are one of
the big systemd mistakes. And that grep/awk/sed/... over classical text
logs always will be more poverfull than systemd journal stuff.
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Tim]

On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 16:07 -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> gkrellm isn't necessarily counting background services.  The real
> number of background services can be found out using systemctl
> --type=service.  In my system I see 67.   In any case, I wouldn't
> worry about number of processes unless you have a performance problem.

Or a security concern...  Some people install everything under the sun,
and you really don't want a telnet server running.

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 09:43:28PM -0700, Gordon Messmer wrote:
> >journald automatically scales its usage to its idea of available memory
> That's an explanation that's somewhat less troubling.
> I read the man page for journald.conf and was not enlightened.
> Which values am I looking at?  I see references to in-memory
> filesystems, but that doesn't relate to resident size, does it?

Hmmm, no, you're right — those are in /run. I'm not sure, then. :)

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systemd and chkconfig and change [was Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?]

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 10:45:09AM -0800, Antonio Olivares wrote:
> with regards to services, I still miss the old # chkconfig --list #
> chkconfig service off; etc.

Part of the problem is that this was already showing its age. Many
modern services are started on demand, rather than on boot, and   
chkconfig doesn't have a good way to reflect that state. Systemd does
(although, see previous long discussion, the choice of terminology is
somewhat confusing, as "disabled" means just _not enabled at boot_, and
_really disabled for everything_ is called "masked").

In any case, take a look at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SysVinit_to_Systemd_Cheatsheet, which
gives some closest-equivalents.


> Reminds me of one quote in Mathematics by John Von Neuman ``Young
> man, in mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to
> them.'' My best guess that systemd would be in that category.

Sure, some parts of it are that way — it's only software, after all.
The "masked" terminology is actually a great example. Other parts are
actually really cool, like management of services throughout their
whole lifetime, relevant log messages automatically shown for
"systemctl status", the cgroups control stuff (now easy to use on any
system; previously the domain of specialists), the containers
support there are parts worth understanding too.

I know it's become a big religious debate, but you don't *have* to be a
fundamentalist on either side, really.

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finding out about new stuff [was Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?]

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 10:45:09AM -0800, Antonio Olivares wrote:
> I did not know about this.  This is new stuff.  We actually do not
> know of many things that are happening.

If you haven't, check out Fedora Magazine, at
. We try to talk about all sorts of new
user-facing stuff there. If that's too much, try just
, which is a
once-weekly summary of five things I find interesting (and hopefully
you will too.)

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Antonio Olivares  wrote:

>
> There are 121 services here when I pass --all.  How many of these are
> unneeded?


FYI,  I would suggest posting a new thread or renaming the subject to match
your queries

You can't count all since that is the list of all possible services that
can be enabled.  The currently listed active services seem pretty
reasonable to me.  Whether you would need a particular service is dependent
on how you are using the system.

Rahul
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Antonio Olivares]

-Original Message-
From: methe...@gmail.com
Sent: Tue, 5 May 2015 16:07:35 -0400
To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Subject: Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

Hi

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Antonio Olivares wrote:

 I run gkrellm and it lists 340 procs.  Before it used to be a smaller number

gkrellm isn't necessarily counting background services.  The real number of 
background services can be found out using systemctl --type=service.  In my 
system I see 67.   In any case, I wouldn't worry about number of processes 
unless you have a performance problem.

Rahul 


[olivares@localhost ~]$ uname -a
Linux localhost.localdomain 3.19.5-100.fc20.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon Apr 20 19:51:16 
UTC 2015 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[olivares@localhost ~]$ su -c 'systemctl --type=service'
Password: 
UNIT LOAD   ACTIVE SUB DESCRIPTION
abrt-ccpp.serviceloaded active exited  Install ABRT coredump hook
abrt-oops.serviceloaded active running ABRT kernel log watcher
abrt-xorg.serviceloaded active running ABRT Xorg log watcher
abrtd.serviceloaded active running ABRT Automated Bug Reporting 
accounts-daemon.service  loaded active running Accounts Service
alsa-state.service   loaded active running Manage Sound Card State (rest
atd.service  loaded active running Job spooling tools
auditd.service   loaded active running Security Auditing Service
avahi-daemon.service loaded active running Avahi mDNS/DNS-SD Stack
bluetooth.serviceloaded active running Bluetooth service
chronyd.service  loaded active running NTP client/server
colord.service   loaded active running Manage, Install and Generate 
crond.serviceloaded active running Command Scheduler
cups.service loaded active running CUPS Printing Service
dbus.service loaded active running D-Bus System Message Bus
fedora-import-state.service  loaded active exited  Import network configuration 
fedora-readonly.service  loaded active exited  Configure read-only root supp
firewalld.serviceloaded active running firewalld - dynamic firewall 
fprintd.service  loaded active running Fingerprint Authentication Da
gdm.service  loaded active running GNOME Display Manager
irqbalance.service   loaded active running irqbalance daemon
kmod-static-nodes.serviceloaded active exited  Create list of required stati
libvirtd.service loaded active running Virtualization daemon
lvm2-lvmetad.service loaded active running LVM2 metadata daemon
lvm2-monitor.service loaded active exited  Monitoring of LVM2 mirrors, s
lvm2-pvscan@8:5.service  loaded active exited  LVM2 PV scan on device 8:5
mcelog.service   loaded failed failed  Machine Check Exception Loggi
ModemManager.service loaded active running Modem Manager
NetworkManager.service   loaded active running Network Manager
nfs-lock.service loaded active running NFS file locking service.
packagekit.service   loaded active running PackageKit Daemon
pcscd.serviceloaded active running PC/SC Smart Card Daemon
polkit.service   loaded active running Authorization Manager
rpcbind.service  loaded active running RPC bind service
rsyslog.service  loaded active running System Logging Service
rtkit-daemon.service loaded active running RealtimeKit Scheduling Policy
smartd.service   loaded active running Self Monitoring and Reporting
sshd.service loaded active running OpenSSH server daemon
systemd-fsck-root.serviceloaded active exited  File System Check on Root Dev
systemd-f...77e163a9.service loaded active exited  File System Check on /dev/dis
systemd-f...\x2dhome.service loaded active exited  File System Check on /dev/map
systemd-hostnamed.serviceloaded active running Hostname Service
systemd-journald.service loaded active running Journal Service
systemd-localed.service  loaded active running Locale Service
systemd-logind.service   loaded active running Login Service
systemd-random-seed.service  loaded active exited  Load/Save Random Seed
systemd-r...-collect.service loaded active exited  Collect Read-Ahead Data
systemd-r...d-replay.service loaded active exited  Replay Read-Ahead Data
systemd-remount-fs.service   loaded active exited  Remount Root and Kernel File 
systemd-sysctl.service   loaded active exited  Apply Kernel Variables
systemd-t...etup-dev.service loaded active exited  Create static device nodes in
systemd-t...es-setup.service loaded active exited  Create Volatile Files and Dir
systemd-udev-trigger.service loaded active exited  udev Coldplug all Devices
systemd-udevd.serviceloaded active running udev Kernel Device Manager
systemd

Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Antonio Olivares wrote:

>
> I run gkrellm and it lists 340 procs.  Before it used to be a smaller
> number


gkrellm isn't necessarily counting background services.  The real number of
background services can be found out using systemctl --type=service.  In my
system I see 67.   In any case, I wouldn't worry about number of processes
unless you have a performance problem.

Rahul
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Antonio Olivares]

-Original Message-
From: methe...@gmail.com
Sent: Tue, 5 May 2015 15:44:28 -0400
To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Subject: Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

Hi

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Antonio Olivares  wrote:

 One question *may not be systemd related*, how come fedora after startup has 
300+ services running in the background?  

How are you counting services?

Rahul



I run gkrellm and it lists 340 procs.  Before it used to be a smaller number 

Best Regards,


Antonio


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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Antonio Olivares  wrote:
>
>
> One question *may not be systemd related*, how come fedora after startup
> has 300+ services running in the background?


How are you counting services?

Rahul
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Antonio Olivares]

> Well, I'd count the "systemd and docker don't work together well"
> bit with some degree of skepticism. But, on the larger point:
> 
> Fedora doesn't strive to be bleeding edge. We strive to be the first to
> offer the newest and best of _functional_ open source software. And
> that's a hard balance to get right — sometimes, eager contributors and
> developers get things into Fedora that _aren't_ quite ready. Other
> times, we're too conservative.
> 
> But I also don't see systemd as a crux of this. Another hot new minimal
> startup distribution, CoreOS, is _based around_ systemd.
> 
> In any case, the Fedora.next initiative
>  is an attempt to work on
> this balance in new and different ways, with Fedora Cloud in particular
> being a space for experimenting with some of these new concepts (as
> that's sort of the incubation space for new OS technologies in the
> world at large right now).
> 
> 
>> Debian--> Devuan
>> Fedora --> Fedoruan?
> 
> If you're interested in exploring a remix like that, see
>  (although note that "Fedoruan"
> is probably not acceptable with our trademark guidelines).
> 
> 
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader

I do not know where I had seen CoreOS?  Maybe I confused it with Tiny Core?  At 
distrowatch, I had seen a distro based on Fedora 

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20150427

http://chapeaulinux.org/

I am surprised that it has not gotten more coverage?  It is a Fedora Remix too! 
, like old Fedora Remix by Rahul and one by Valent Turkovic.

Best Regards,


Antonio


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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Antonio Olivares]

Now there is a new alternative to systemd
 see RancherOS
I am actually surprised and puzzled by this!  I thought Fedora was bleeding 
edge* and was the pioneer of new technologies*  but now someone else is leading 
the init* technologies.

I don't see how.  It is not a new technology.  Running docker daemon as pid 1 
is a pretty specialized thing to do and if the goal is to run containers, 
Fedora is pushing Project Atomic in that space.

http://www.projectatomic.io [http://www.projectatomic.io] 

Rahul
---

I did not know about this.  This is new stuff.  We actually do not know of many 
things that are happening.  We(The community does not know about many things 
that are happening); with regards to services, I still miss the old # chkconfig 
--list # chkconfig service off; etc.  

One question *may not be systemd related*, how come fedora after startup has 
300+ services running in the background?  How many of these services* are not 
needed?  Does it depend on which desktop one runs?  How can we bring this count 
down?   Maybe Tom H., has already answered this? and it flew past me?  

I see this on a Fedora 20 machine and I scratch my head, I wanted to ask before 
but did not have the nerve to ask,  I see this on other linux boxes and wonder 
how can I turn off stuff that I donț need/use even if it is with systemd new 
commands or syntax?  

I see that with system Administrators and for persons with years and years of 
experience, systemd is a pain, but for the casual user they may have gotten 
used to it, or left to another systemd free distro.  Reminds me of one quote in 
Mathematics by John Von Neuman ``Young man, in mathematics you don't understand 
things. You just get used to them.'' My best guess that systemd would be in 
that category.

Thank you for your input

Best Regards,


Antonio


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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 05:24:23AM -0800, Antonio Olivares wrote:
> see RancherOS
> http://rancher.com/rancher-os/
> ``Eliminates need for complex init systems
> RancherOS eliminates the need for complex init systems like systemd.
> Systemd and Docker don’t work well together as they both attempt to
> manage control groups. Using a simple configuration file,
> administrators can easily configure system services as Docker
> containers.''
> 
> I am actually surprised and puzzled by this!  I thought Fedora was
> bleeding edge* and was the pioneer of new technologies* but now
> someone else is leading the init* technologies. Yes there was upstart
> by ubuntu, there is uslessD, and other non systemd software out there
> but these guys they may have a mission*

Well, I'd count the "systemd and docker don't work together well"
bit with some degree of skepticism. But, on the larger point:

Fedora doesn't strive to be bleeding edge. We strive to be the first to
offer the newest and best of _functional_ open source software. And
that's a hard balance to get right — sometimes, eager contributors and
developers get things into Fedora that _aren't_ quite ready. Other
times, we're too conservative.

But I also don't see systemd as a crux of this. Another hot new minimal
startup distribution, CoreOS, is _based around_ systemd.

In any case, the Fedora.next initiative
 is an attempt to work on
this balance in new and different ways, with Fedora Cloud in particular
being a space for experimenting with some of these new concepts (as
that's sort of the incubation space for new OS technologies in the
world at large right now).


> Debian--> Devuan
> Fedora --> Fedoruan?  

If you're interested in exploring a remix like that, see
 (although note that "Fedoruan"
is probably not acceptable with our trademark guidelines).


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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 9:24 AM, Antonio Olivares  wrote:

> Now there is a new alternative to systemd
> see RancherOS
> I am actually surprised and puzzled by this!  I thought Fedora was
> bleeding edge* and was the pioneer of new technologies*  but now someone
> else is leading the init* technologies.


I don't see how.  It is not a new technology.  Running docker daemon as pid
1 is a pretty specialized thing to do and if the goal is to run containers,
Fedora is pushing Project Atomic in that space.

http://www.projectatomic.io

Rahul
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Antonio Olivares]

>> SysV init scripts are here for ages
> 
> They were large, inconsistent, and burdensome to maintain.  The people
> who maintained them decided that there was a better option.
> 
> If you are willing to maintain them, then you can do the work to provide
> an alternate init system.
> 
> If you're not doing the work, then at some point you have to trust that
> the people who are doing the work know better than you do.
> 
>> We have lot of alternatives in Linux system (several desktop WMs etc)
>> already, alternative init is in this case (IMO) just small piece of all
>> system SW.
> 
> init is a small piece of code, yes.  But it's not just code, it's an
> interface.  Lots of programs interface with systemd.  If you want an
> alternative, you have to address all of those dependencies.
> 

Even on Distrowatch for a good while, systemd has encouraged comments both + 
and -.
Now there is a new alternative to systemd 
see RancherOS

http://rancher.com/rancher-os/

``Eliminates need for complex init systems

RancherOS eliminates the need for complex init systems like systemd. Systemd 
and Docker don’t work well together as they both attempt to manage control 
groups. Using a simple configuration file, administrators can easily configure 
system services as Docker containers.''

I am actually surprised and puzzled by this!  I thought Fedora was bleeding 
edge* and was the pioneer of new technologies*  but now someone else is leading 
the init* technologies.  Yes there was upstart by ubuntu, there is uslessD, and 
other non systemd software out there but these guys they may have a mission*

Debian--> Devuan
Fedora --> Fedoruan?  

Hope no one is offended.  I am just watching on the sidelines, but I do see 
Fedora losing ground, Debian also loosing longtime users because of init* 
technologies getting in users' ways.

Best Regards,


Antonio


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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Antonio Olivares]

> My approach to this issue has been to learn to live with systemd, and
> hope that the reasons for its existence will ultimately be of global
> benefit. It's the same frame of mind one has when paying taxes ---
> they're unavoidable, painful for the individual, and are supposed to
> be beneficial for the progress of the community (although that's not
> immediately obvious to the individual).
> 

Also from the sidelines watching, I see why are these like taxes?  Taxes are 
just forced down peoples throats.  If you donț pay up, you may lose your home, 
everything you got.  IT may be better to not have anything, then what can they 
take away from you?
``they're unavoidable, painful for the individual, and are supposed to be 
beneficial for the progress of the community ''

I would suspect that taxes is not in the same category as systemd.  There are 
other distros that do not have systemd* in them, but they are now the final 
fontier.  Crux, Slackware, Gentoo* come to mind and also linux from scratch.  
If they too go down the road(go systemd), then *BSDs would be the final 
fontier, if that falls too, then plan9?  Haiku?  There has to be some 
alternative somewhere.  Then if all else fails, don't have anything.  Like with 
Albert Einstein's quote `` I do not know what weapons WWIII will be fought 
with, but WWIV(world war 4) will be fought with sticks and stones ''

I really like(d) Fedora.  I have used it since Fedora Core 2, played with Red 
Hat 8/9 Mandrake.  Things were just easier, we could use chkconfig --?  I have 
loved to test and play with new technologies, but the playing game is no longer 
fun.  Now we have to learn new things, yes there exists documentation, but 
there* may be no fun in computing anymore.  

My $0.02

Regards,


Antonio A. Olivares


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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Tim]

Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:
>> SysV init scripts are here for ages

Gordon Messmer:
> They were large, inconsistent, and burdensome to maintain.  The people
> who maintained them decided that there was a better option.

Just watching this on the sidelines, but /etc/init.d/httpd on my old
Fedora installation, for an example, doesn't look a particularly complex
script.  And my brief looks at the plethora of systemd scripts (versus
the few of the other), doesn't look easier to manage.

Or do you mean some other aspect of init scripts?

-- 
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All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Gordon Messmer]

On 05/04/2015 06:20 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:

journald automatically scales its usage to its idea of available memory


That's an explanation that's somewhat less troubling.

I read the man page for journald.conf and was not enlightened.  Which 
values am I looking at?  I see references to in-memory filesystems, but 
that doesn't relate to resident size, does it?


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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Gordon Messmer]

On 05/03/2015 04:13 PM, Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:

Gordon Messmer wrote:

SysV init scripts are here for ages


They were large, inconsistent, and burdensome to maintain.  The people 
who maintained them decided that there was a better option.


If you are willing to maintain them, then you can do the work to provide 
an alternate init system.


If you're not doing the work, then at some point you have to trust that 
the people who are doing the work know better than you do.



We have lot of alternatives in Linux system (several desktop WMs etc)
already, alternative init is in this case (IMO) just small piece of all
system SW.


init is a small piece of code, yes.  But it's not just code, it's an 
interface.  Lots of programs interface with systemd.  If you want an 
alternative, you have to address all of those dependencies.


To me, your interest in an alternative appears to be evidence that you 
lack familiarity with the scope of the work.



Although I understand that there are features which are interesting for
some Linux users, they are not too important to me.


GNU/Linux systems *can* be tailored to individual needs.  That's one of 
the great things about them.  However, no specific distribution can be 
all things to all people.  If you are interested in a GNU/Linux system 
that contains exactly the components you like, maybe try Linux From Scratch.


Seriously.  The education that it provides will improve your input and 
contributions.


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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Ronal B Morse]

Forget it, Dan. It's Chinatown.

RBM
On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 08:07 +1000, Dan Irwin wrote:
> I find the attitude of many of the senior fedora people quite
> disappointing. There is no freedom, there is ZERO choice on this
> issue. It's a dictatorship.
> 
> 
> My observations are that the systemd people are not the best people
> for the job. In fact, they are probably at the complete other end of
> the spectrum. They don't appear to listen to users. They appear to
> focus their effort on starting laptop computers, while ignoring the
> majority of linux use cases.
> 
> 
> 
> systemd is not for servers. But apparently, it's not for embedded,
> mobile phone, or tablet either. In fact, systemd doesn't run on
> anything that doesn't run glibc. Now i know these are not relevant to
> fedora. Lately I have been questioning the relevance of fedora anyway.
> Mailing list volume has reduced to a trickle. Diminishing users. We
> really are only a beta for RHEL.
> 
> 
> Honestly, systemd is already irrelevant in the grand scheme of linux.
> It was a nice experiment, and has some great ideas. What was sold to
> us way back in 2010 is NOT what we have today. We were sold an init
> replacement. Instead, we have a madman taking over every aspect of the
> computer with lots of new, untested code, full of half baked ideas.
> 
> 
> It's not enterprise. And anyone who says it is clearly doesn't do
> enterprise linux for a living.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Tim 
> wrote:
> Allegedly, on or about 03 May 2015, Marko Vojinovic sent:
> > Oooh, I see, writing buggy and ill-documented code is
> (ultimately)
> > better for the market survival of the software company!
> 
> Isn't that how Microsoft made their millions?
> 
> --
> 
> 
> All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no
> point
> trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted
> to the
> public lists.
> 
> ZNQR LBH YBBX
> 
> 
> 
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Dan Irwin]

I find the attitude of many of the senior fedora people quite
disappointing. There is no freedom, there is ZERO choice on this issue.
It's a dictatorship.

My observations are that the systemd people are not the best people for the
job. In fact, they are probably at the complete other end of the spectrum.
They don't appear to listen to users. They appear to focus their effort on
starting laptop computers, while ignoring the majority of linux use cases.

systemd is not for servers. But apparently, it's not for embedded, mobile
phone, or tablet either. In fact, systemd doesn't run on anything that
doesn't run glibc. Now i know these are not relevant to fedora. Lately I
have been questioning the relevance of fedora anyway. Mailing list volume
has reduced to a trickle. Diminishing users. We really are only a beta for
RHEL.

Honestly, systemd is already irrelevant in the grand scheme of linux. It
was a nice experiment, and has some great ideas. What was sold to us way
back in 2010 is NOT what we have today. We were sold an init replacement.
Instead, we have a madman taking over every aspect of the computer with
lots of new, untested code, full of half baked ideas.

It's not enterprise. And anyone who says it is clearly doesn't do
enterprise linux for a living.


On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Tim  wrote:

> Allegedly, on or about 03 May 2015, Marko Vojinovic sent:
> > Oooh, I see, writing buggy and ill-documented code is (ultimately)
> > better for the market survival of the software company!
>
> Isn't that how Microsoft made their millions?
>
> --
>
>
> All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
> trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
> public lists.
>
> ZNQR LBH YBBX
>
>
>
> --
> users mailing list
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 03 May 2015, Marko Vojinovic sent:
> Oooh, I see, writing buggy and ill-documented code is (ultimately)
> better for the market survival of the software company! 

Isn't that how Microsoft made their millions?

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public lists.

ZNQR LBH YBBX



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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sun, May 03, 2015 at 02:57:57PM -0700, Gordon Messmer wrote:
> I tend to think that's a better question.  2.5M of memory is
> trivial, but I have systems where the RSS of systemd-journald is
> 30M+  The very high variability of the memory size for that process
> makes me worry about memory leaks.

journald automatically scales its usage to its idea of available memory
(and manages disk usage similarly — an important thing for sysadmins to
be aware of). You can tune how it does this with values in
/etc/systemd/journald.conf -- see the journald.conf man page for
details.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: SV: Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 01:48:57AM +0200, Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:
> Hmm, I guess You want advice me, to bought some strictly limited (maybe
> commercial) OS - and then shut up and be satisfied with I have. But this
> fortunately is not Linux case...

Fundamentally, if you want something to be different in Linux — and in
Fedora — you absolutely can do it. However, you can't really tell other
people that _they_ ought to do a thing. Or rather, you can, but unless
you can convince them that there's value in doing the work, you won't
get anywhere with that. So, while "everyone is happy with systemd" is
clearly a joke, there's really a kernel of truth — it works well enough
and has enough virtues that no one has seriously invested the work into
building something different. If that someone is you, go for it. Until
then, systemd is what we have.

And, as I've noted before, going in circles complaining about it is
off-topic here. If you're serious about working on packaging and
integrating an alternative init system, the devel list is the place for
you. If you're interested in getting or providing advice on working
with Fedora as it is, this list is great. (For example, on writing
systemd unit files for the services you want to manage.)

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: SV: Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[birger]

ma., 04.05.2015 kl. 01.48 +0200, skrev Frantisek Hanzlik:
> 
> Hmm, I guess You want advice me, to bought some strictly limited 
> (maybe
> commercial) OS - and then shut up and be satisfied with I have. But 
> this
> fortunately is not Linux case...

That was not what I wrote at all. I gave reasons why a distro does not
want to support multiple init systems as it becomes a big burden on
package maintainers.

If you really want a fedora with another init system you need to look
at making a respin. That respin needs to provide init files for all
packages that now use unit files.

I still remember back when people thought sysvinit was wasteful on
resources, overly complex and not the unix way compared to the single
rc.local script...

> Regarding cgroups/btrfs/selinux - they may be used independently of
> systemd. And although I think SELinux is good thing and I use it
> (regardless of systemd), things as cgroups and btrfs I never needed
> (regardless of systemd). And I not want to 'play' with, I want to
> foolproof system - and in my experience, systemd does not fall with
> (after 4+ years of 'playing').
> 

You mentioned yourself that one of your reasons was a need to run
multiple versions of services like sshd. one sshd for users, one for
admin.

How about making the one for admin run off its own read-only btrfs
volume, wrapped up in cgroups and selinux? No access to the full file
system at all. Only the parts relevant to sshd are present. And the
only way to add new ssh keys, set passwords or whatever is from the
host system. A sshd container that isn't exploitable in any way. It
can only be used to initiate a new ssh into some internal system. I
did that as my first ever venture into new functionality in systemd
service files. It took me a few hours, documentation was good, and it
worked!

With even debian and ubuntu switching to systemd you have to dismiss
the red hat conspiracy theories. systemd is actually a good thing in
this time of container-based thinking. I do have my reservations about
some of the current container implementations (like docker), but the
basic principles are sound for any server. And we have to acknowledge
that linux is a server OS. Systemd lets me containerize any service
without setting up the whole framework for such services. I can haz
full control!

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Tim]

On Sun, 2015-05-03 at 09:41 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
> See "Tip 3" in:
>  
> http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/game/systemd.html

While I can see that attitude in closed source software, as yet another
vendor lock-in, I'm more inclined to go with a point I saw raised,
elsewhere, about ADD programmers (attention deficit disorder)...

   When a thing doesn't work, rather than work on it,
   debug it, and make it better.  Just reinvent the
   wheel, make yet another thing from scratch, and
   hope that it's better.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

Sure, as someone who does electronics engineering, I can understand
situations where you look at a thing, and decide that there's just no
way that you can modify it to make it good, so you do need to start
over.  But it really smacks of incompetence if there's a stream of
things being handled in this manner, one after another.

And then there's the ego of "I didn't invent it, so it's no good, and I
want everyone to fawn over me, instead," attitude.

I've come across programmers with huge egos, but no real surprise there.
If they didn't think they were better than someone else, they wouldn't
be inventing something new that does the same job as something else.
The real trouble is when their /thing/ doesn't work that well, and they
won't accept criticism, nor do anything to fix it off their own bat.
You don't even get the cranky, "well if you're so good, tell me exactly
what to change to fix it," you get the "if you don't like it, go away
bulldust."

(In this case, it was some closed-source Windows software I used, over a
decade ago.  So nobody needs to get their knickers in a twist that this
was a veiled slur at anyone in particular on this list.)

-- 
tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp

Linux 3.19.5-100.fc20.i686 #1 SMP Mon Apr 20 20:28:39 UTC 2015 i686

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying
to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Tim]

On Sun, 2015-05-03 at 14:04 +0200, Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:
> Why hasn't Fedora alternative (upstart/openrc) init?

Wasn't upstart the (ironically named) new thing that was utterly
despised in Ubuntu, many years ago?

-- 
tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp

Linux 3.19.5-100.fc20.i686 #1 SMP Mon Apr 20 20:28:39 UTC 2015 i686

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying
to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

Pete Travis wrote:
> I cut out the parts that didn't seem relevant to accomplishing what it
> seems like you are trying to do.
> 
> Can you elaborate on what service, specifically, you want to listen on a
> different port, how you attempted to change it, and what happened when you
> did so?

Hi, it seems as You cut too many from my post. I wrote before, that
I not any problem with doing that with sysv initscrips - ant it
was services:

- sshd (I want run one instance for ordinal remote users, and second
on different port for administration)

- squid (I want run one instance as transparent proxy and another
on different port as stadalone proxy. This was in squid 2 times,
now at squid 3 this is possible in one instance)

- Firebird and Gupta SQLBase SQL DB servers, when differen instances
was running for different purposes

- perhaps some others...

I do not know where you're going with your question - I know that
I can do with systemd units too and I'm doin this. But the core of
the problem is elsewhere - systemd seem be darkly big, complex,
unstable, as Linux will be evolving it perhaps will require
continuing support - it's all far from the Unix systems principles.
IMHO
-- 
Franta Hanzlik

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Pete Travis]

On May 3, 2015 6:04 AM, "Frantisek Hanzlik"  wrote:
>
> - (problem for me create init script for another network daemon
> instance running on different port etc.
> TIA, Franta Hanzlik
>
> --
>

I cut out the parts that didn't seem relevant to accomplishing what it
seems like you are trying to do.

Can you elaborate on what service, specifically, you want to listen on a
different port, how you attempted to change it, and what happened when you
did so?

--Pete
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Re: SV: Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 01:48:57 +0200,
 Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:


Hmm, I guess You want advice me, to bought some strictly limited (maybe
commercial) OS - and then shut up and be satisfied with I have. But this
fortunately is not Linux case...


However it is very unlikely that Fedora will support another init system 
in the foreseeable future. It would be a lot of work and there doesn't 
seem to be enough maintainer interest to support this.


If not using systemd is a hard requirement for you, you'd probably be more 
successful switching distros than talking several people into doing the 
work of supporting another init system.


I think the init system just isn't visible enough to get multiple groups 
of people supporting alternative ones, unlike something like desktops 
where we have something like 6 supported to some degree.

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 4:40 PM, Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:

> Rahul, thanks to Your recommendation. But for wider angle, this isn't
> as so significant. I want a stable system on which I can rely on -
> and it now block systemd piece. And as I see for last 4 years of its
> evolving, it is still totally buggy thing. I want alternative, as I
> said before


You are side stepping your own contention that systemd documentation is
incomplete.  If it wasn't significant, it is not clear, why you brought it
up in the first place.  If you want to package up an alternative and make
sure it works well in Fedora, you are free to do that. It is far from
trivial but it is possible

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_the_package_collection_maintainers

So far, absolutely noone who wants alternatives has stepped up to do any of
the work involved.


Rahul
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Re: SV: Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

birger wrote:
> First of all, supporting multiple init systems is not something a distro
> wants to do.
> 
> It would involve forcing package maintainers to support them when getting
> enough package maintainers is a problem already.
> 
> The alternative is to create a respin with another init system and its own
> builds of any software using systemd. A big task.
> 
> And besides... Systemd is quite awesome. Especially for servers. play with
> cgroups, btrfs and selinux directly in the service file and you can have
> services running in your very own containers.

Hmm, I guess You want advice me, to bought some strictly limited (maybe
commercial) OS - and then shut up and be satisfied with I have. But this
fortunately is not Linux case...
Regarding cgroups/btrfs/selinux - they may be used independently of
systemd. And although I think SELinux is good thing and I use it
(regardless of systemd), things as cgroups and btrfs I never needed
(regardless of systemd). And I not want to 'play' with, I want to
foolproof system - and in my experience, systemd does not fall with
(after 4+ years of 'playing').

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

Gordon Messmer wrote:
> On 05/03/2015 05:04 AM, Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:
>> - (bigger harm) Why hasn't Fedora alternative (upstart/openrc) init?
>> ...
>> When systemd presents itself as compatible with sysvinit, then IMO
>> having alternative init in Fedora should not be too big problem.
> 
> Systemd is backward-compatible with SysV init scripts, but other init
> systems are not forward-compatible with systemd unit files.  If Fedora
> were to support an alternate init system, it would have to ship both SysV
> init scripts and unit files with all of its daemons. Then the developers
> would have to sort out how to be both a) backward compatible with SysV and
> b) ignore the SysV init scripts in favor of unit files when systemd is in
> use.  Bugs in daemons might show up under only its unit file or only its
> init script, which would increase the complexity of handling bug reports. 
> So, complexity is one of the reasons that there's not an alternative init
> system.

SysV init scripts are here for ages, IMO is not problem dust up and
revamp them. In long-term distros as RHEL 5/6 they will be with us for
years...

> Another one is that systemd enables a handful of Linux features that other
> init systems don't (e.g. cgroups).  Any package that relies on the use of
> those features might be broken on another init system. Or it might simply
> behave in a way other than the documentation suggests, which would lead to
> bug reports that are associated with the lesser init systems.

We have lot of alternatives in Linux system (several desktop WMs etc)
already, alternative init is in this case (IMO) just small piece of all
system SW.

Although I understand that there are features which are interesting for
some Linux users, they are not too important to me. I was completely
satisfied with SysV init/upstart in previous Fedora releases, they works
without problems for me already.
What I sometimes needed was to define several runlevels and in them to
run various daemons - and it was much easier to do using SysV init
runlevels.

>> - (smaller harm) Why hasn't systemd option to run without journald?
>> ...Why then in my system must run journald daemon, quite useless,
>> occupying 2.5+ MB of memory?
> 
> I tend to think that's a better question.  2.5M of memory is trivial, but
> I have systems where the RSS of systemd-journald is 30M+  The very high
> variability of the memory size for that process makes me worry about
> memory leaks.

Not sure when 2.5MB is little or plenty (several years ago I work as
programmer at PDP-11/RSX-11M systems, which had ~ 1 MB memory - and
there was running _lot_ of user sessions simultaneously, which control
the factory production). Despite of that, why I should run (in my case
useless) journald daemon, when I do not want it? And must use complex
settings as
systemd.log_target=syslog-or-kmsg/LogTarget=syslog-or-kmsg/DefaultStandardOutput=syslog+console/Storage=none
etc, when should be
sufficient simply disable journald?
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SV: Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[birger]

First of all, supporting multiple init systems is not something a distro wants 
to do.

It would involve forcing package maintainers to support them when getting 
enough package maintainers is a problem already.

The alternative is to create a respin with another init system and its own 
builds of any software using systemd. A big task.

And besides... Systemd is quite awesome. Especially for servers. play with 
cgroups, btrfs and selinux directly in the service file and you can have 
services running in your very own containers.

Setting up my first new service using a cf 

Sendt fra min Sony Xperia™-smarttelefon

 Frantisek Hanzlik skrev 

>Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> HI
>> 
>> On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 3:36 PM, Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:
>> 
>> Rahul, I'm not sure what you're talking about, sorry for my narrow
>> english knowledge.
>> Despite of that, although I know that systemd fans talk how is its
>> documentations exhaustive (best/ideal/...), it isn't truth
>> 
>> 
>>  I disagree with your perspective.  There is plenty of documentation
>> including tutorials, man pages, guide style documentation etc
>> 
>> Scroll down
>> 
>> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
>> 
>> If you are missing something specific, feel free to file a bug report or
>> RFE and reply with that link here. 
>> 
>> Rahul
>
>Rahul, thanks to Your recommendation. But for wider angle, this isn't
>as so significant. I want a stable system on which I can rely on -
>and it now block systemd piece. And as I see for last 4 years of its
>evolving, it is still totally buggy thing. I want alternative, as I
>said before.
>-- 
>Franta Hanzlik
>
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Gordon Messmer]

On 05/03/2015 05:04 AM, Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:

- (bigger harm) Why hasn't Fedora alternative (upstart/openrc) init?
...
When systemd presents itself as compatible with sysvinit, then IMO
having alternative init in Fedora should not be too big problem.


Systemd is backward-compatible with SysV init scripts, but other init 
systems are not forward-compatible with systemd unit files.  If Fedora 
were to support an alternate init system, it would have to ship both 
SysV init scripts and unit files with all of its daemons. Then the 
developers would have to sort out how to be both a) backward compatible 
with SysV and b) ignore the SysV init scripts in favor of unit files 
when systemd is in use.  Bugs in daemons might show up under only its 
unit file or only its init script, which would increase the complexity 
of handling bug reports.  So, complexity is one of the reasons that 
there's not an alternative init system.


Another one is that systemd enables a handful of Linux features that 
other init systems don't (e.g. cgroups).  Any package that relies on the 
use of those features might be broken on another init system. Or it 
might simply behave in a way other than the documentation suggests, 
which would lead to bug reports that are associated with the lesser init 
systems.



- (smaller harm) Why hasn't systemd option to run without journald?
...Why then in my system must run journald daemon, quite useless,
occupying 2.5+ MB of memory?


I tend to think that's a better question.  2.5M of memory is trivial, 
but I have systems where the RSS of systemd-journald is 30M+  The very 
high variability of the memory size for that process makes me worry 
about memory leaks.


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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> HI
> 
> On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 3:36 PM, Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:
> 
> Rahul, I'm not sure what you're talking about, sorry for my narrow
> english knowledge.
> Despite of that, although I know that systemd fans talk how is its
> documentations exhaustive (best/ideal/...), it isn't truth
> 
> 
>  I disagree with your perspective.  There is plenty of documentation
> including tutorials, man pages, guide style documentation etc
> 
> Scroll down
> 
> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
> 
> If you are missing something specific, feel free to file a bug report or
> RFE and reply with that link here. 
> 
> Rahul

Rahul, thanks to Your recommendation. But for wider angle, this isn't
as so significant. I want a stable system on which I can rely on -
and it now block systemd piece. And as I see for last 4 years of its
evolving, it is still totally buggy thing. I want alternative, as I
said before.
-- 
Franta Hanzlik

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Rahul Sundaram]

HI

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 3:36 PM, Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:

> Rahul, I'm not sure what you're talking about, sorry for my narrow
> english knowledge.
> Despite of that, although I know that systemd fans talk how is its
> documentations exhaustive (best/ideal/...), it isn't truth


 I disagree with your perspective.  There is plenty of documentation
including tutorials, man pages, guide style documentation etc

Scroll down

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/

If you are missing something specific, feel free to file a bug report or
RFE and reply with that link here.

Rahul
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Sun, 03 May 2015 17:33:53 +0200
> Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:
> 
>> Marko Vojinovic wrote:
>>> On Sun, 03 May 2015 14:04:37 +0200
>>> Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:

 - (bigger harm) Why hasn't Fedora alternative (upstart/openrc)
 init?
>>>
>>> Umm, because everyone is happy with systemd? :-)
>>>
>>> If you want Fedora to have an alternative init, roll up your sleeves
>>> and dig in, make it happen! ;-)
>>>
>>> :-)alternative init
>>> Marko
>>
>> Marko thanks to Your reply, but:
>> - All around perhaps are not happy, as I'm not. And perhaps all those,
>> who do not have the ability to say it here.
>>
>> - about 'alternative init' what can you recommend to me to make this
>> happen? I must say, I'm not programmer, rather user and administrator
>> for several Linux/Un*x machines. But I really want somehow interest
>> in this issue.
> 
> I guess the smileys I put up there didn't do their job.
> 
> My comment above was tongue-in-cheek. It is the type of the response
> one gets from systemd-advocates whenever a question similar to yours
> pops up on this list.
> 
> The init system is not just any old package that you can replace on
> your system. Rather, it is an integral piece of gear, interwoven with
> the kernel and a whole bunch of other mission-critical apps for any
> Linux distro. In this sense, changing one init system for another is a
> highly nontrivial task, and requires expert knowledge of all sorts of
> under-the-hood stuff in Linux. There are not so many people on the
> planet who have the knowledge to actually sit down and write an in-place
> substitute for systemd. That is why there is no alternative for Fedora.
> 
> In other words, if you want to make an alternative init system, you need
> to be somewhat like Lennart Poettering. And he is a tough act to
> follow, in more ways than one... ;-)
> 
> My approach to this issue has been to learn to live with systemd, and
> hope that the reasons for its existence will ultimately be of global
> benefit. It's the same frame of mind one has when paying taxes ---
> they're unavoidable, painful for the individual, and are supposed to
> be beneficial for the progress of the community (although that's not
> immediately obvious to the individual).
> 
> I do this by learning about systemd on-the-fly --- as much as I need to
> get my job done, and never any more than that. :-)
> 
> HTH, :-)
> Marko

Marko, thanks,
I'm not sure when init daemon is some extraordinary. As I wrote,
systemd announces itself as compatible with SysV init - and in its
early stages (in F14 it was chaser but optional) it was option for
upstart. And what I understood, other distros consider the systemd
deployment, but as alternative to their existing init daemons.

PS: No, I do no want be somewhat like Lennart Poettering - destroyed
Linux audio subsystem speaks for itself (but I thing it was benefical
for ms windows ecosystem). I only want a system that is understandable
and that I can rely on - it's all.
-- 
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi
> 
> On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Tom Horsley wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 3 May 2015 15:45:36 +0100
> Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> 
> > Umm, because everyone is happy with systemd? :-)
> 
> Not the slightest possibility that is true. I have a more
> likely reason for the universal adoption of systemd:
> 
> http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/game/selection.html
> 
> 
> That explanation is even less likely.  Very little of Linux enterprise
> support has anything to do with poor documentation or bugs (it is not like
> sysvinit had any real documentation).  A lot of it has to do with high
> level guidance,  roadmaps, prioritization of features etc.   This type of
> support won't scale well on a single project perhaps but it works fine on
> a operating system with thousands of components.  
> 
> Rahul

Rahul, I'm not sure what you're talking about, sorry for my narrow
english knowledge.
Despite of that, although I know that systemd fans talk how is its
documentations exhaustive (best/ideal/...), it isn't truth. IMO there
is lot of systemd doc/man files, but it is even not complete and far
from ideal - as opposed to other init systems, which are much simpler
and documented in detail. To be honest, systemd (and its docs) is
unbaked monster, which has nothing to do with modern Linux
(my opinion).
-- 
TIA, Franta Hanzlik

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Sun, 3 May 2015 15:45:36 +0100
> Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> 
>> Umm, because everyone is happy with systemd? :-)
> 
> Not the slightest possibility that is true. I have a more
> likely reason for the universal adoption of systemd:
> 
> http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/game/selection.html

I do not thing this is the case. Yes there is several events when
this may be true, but I not think that Fedora leadership are thinking
by that way. Rather I suspect them, as they are trying to enforce
others that they thinks some solution (e.g. systemd) is right and
only one right way - though for someone this might be true, but for
others no.
-- 
Franta Hanzlik

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Sun, 03 May 2015 17:33:53 +0200
Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:

> Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > On Sun, 03 May 2015 14:04:37 +0200
> > Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:
> >>
> >> - (bigger harm) Why hasn't Fedora alternative (upstart/openrc)
> >> init?
> > 
> > Umm, because everyone is happy with systemd? :-)
> > 
> > If you want Fedora to have an alternative init, roll up your sleeves
> > and dig in, make it happen! ;-)
> > 
> > :-)alternative init
> > Marko
> 
> Marko thanks to Your reply, but:
> - All around perhaps are not happy, as I'm not. And perhaps all those,
> who do not have the ability to say it here.
> 
> - about 'alternative init' what can you recommend to me to make this
> happen? I must say, I'm not programmer, rather user and administrator
> for several Linux/Un*x machines. But I really want somehow interest
> in this issue.

I guess the smileys I put up there didn't do their job.

My comment above was tongue-in-cheek. It is the type of the response
one gets from systemd-advocates whenever a question similar to yours
pops up on this list.

The init system is not just any old package that you can replace on
your system. Rather, it is an integral piece of gear, interwoven with
the kernel and a whole bunch of other mission-critical apps for any
Linux distro. In this sense, changing one init system for another is a
highly nontrivial task, and requires expert knowledge of all sorts of
under-the-hood stuff in Linux. There are not so many people on the
planet who have the knowledge to actually sit down and write an in-place
substitute for systemd. That is why there is no alternative for Fedora.

In other words, if you want to make an alternative init system, you need
to be somewhat like Lennart Poettering. And he is a tough act to
follow, in more ways than one... ;-)

My approach to this issue has been to learn to live with systemd, and
hope that the reasons for its existence will ultimately be of global
benefit. It's the same frame of mind one has when paying taxes ---
they're unavoidable, painful for the individual, and are supposed to
be beneficial for the progress of the community (although that's not
immediately obvious to the individual).

I do this by learning about systemd on-the-fly --- as much as I need to
get my job done, and never any more than that. :-)

HTH, :-)
Marko

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Sun, 3 May 2015 10:57:55 -0400
Tom Horsley  wrote:

> On Sun, 3 May 2015 15:45:36 +0100
> Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> 
> > Umm, because everyone is happy with systemd? :-)
> 
> Not the slightest possibility that is true. I have a more
> likely reason for the universal adoption of systemd:
> 
> http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/game/selection.html

Oooh, I see, writing buggy and ill-documented code is (ultimately)
better for the market survival of the software company! Evolution on
steroids! Bravo! :-D

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Tom Horsley wrote:

> On Sun, 3 May 2015 15:45:36 +0100
> Marko Vojinovic wrote:
>
> > Umm, because everyone is happy with systemd? :-)
>
> Not the slightest possibility that is true. I have a more
> likely reason for the universal adoption of systemd:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/game/selection.html


That explanation is even less likely.  Very little of Linux enterprise
support has anything to do with poor documentation or bugs (it is not like
sysvinit had any real documentation).  A lot of it has to do with high
level guidance,  roadmaps, prioritization of features etc.   This type of
support won't scale well on a single project perhaps but it works fine on a
operating system with thousands of components.

Rahul
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Sun, 03 May 2015 14:04:37 +0200
> Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:
>>
>> - (bigger harm) Why hasn't Fedora alternative (upstart/openrc) init?
> 
> Umm, because everyone is happy with systemd? :-)
> 
> If you want Fedora to have an alternative init, roll up your sleeves
> and dig in, make it happen! ;-)
> 
> :-)alternative init
> Marko

Marko thanks to Your reply, but:
- All around perhaps are not happy, as I'm not. And perhaps all those,
who do not have the ability to say it here.

- about 'alternative init' what can you recommend to me to make this
happen? I must say, I'm not programmer, rather user and administrator
for several Linux/Un*x machines. But I really want somehow interest
in this issue.
-- 
TIA, Franta

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Tom Horsley]

On Sun, 3 May 2015 15:45:36 +0100
Marko Vojinovic wrote:

> Umm, because everyone is happy with systemd? :-)

Not the slightest possibility that is true. I have a more
likely reason for the universal adoption of systemd:

http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/game/selection.html
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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Sun, 03 May 2015 14:04:37 +0200
Frantisek Hanzlik  wrote:
> 
> - (bigger harm) Why hasn't Fedora alternative (upstart/openrc) init?

Umm, because everyone is happy with systemd? :-)

If you want Fedora to have an alternative init, roll up your sleeves
and dig in, make it happen! ;-)

:-)
Marko

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Re: F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Tom Horsley]

On Sun, 03 May 2015 14:04:37 +0200
Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:

> - (smaller harm) Why hasn't systemd option to run without journald?

See "Tip 3" in:

http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/game/systemd.html
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F21: why Fedora still has not alternative init?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

I just tried upgrade my F19/i686 PC to F21/i686, but I'm frustrated:

- (bigger harm) Why hasn't Fedora alternative (upstart/openrc) init?
In F14- times all things worked for me flawlessly, was not problem
for me create init script for new (Fedora unsupported) services, was
not problem for me create init script for another network daemon
instance running on different port etc. From F15 (almost unworkable
distro) to now, I have lot of problems with systemd, including
inaccessible system - I not know this state since RH 4, when I first
started using Redhat (and then Fedora disribution).
When systemd presents itself as compatible with sysvinit, then IMO
having alternative init in Fedora should not be too big problem.

- (smaller harm) Why hasn't systemd option to run without journald?
I want to have, of course, all my logs made using rsyslogd (want text
logs, no some binary blobs; are also other reasons for this concept).
Why then in my system must run journald daemon, quite useless,
occupying 2.5+ MB of memory?

Has anyone some experience with alternative inits on Fedora?
Or is there some (Fedora based) distro with alternative init?

PS: up to F14, I was not afraid even to install a beta version of
Fedora. Since then I install a new distribution up to some time after
release, and I'm afraid that everything will not go. I understand
that it is not in good condition either for me or for the community.
I want to contribute to the success of the Fedora - at least, by
reporting bugs, etc.
I would like to again find Fedora, as it had been before.
-- 
TIA, Franta Hanzlik

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