subject:"OT\: what's with the 'i'\?"



On 02/02/2013 08:38 PM, Ian Malone wrote:

On 3 February 2013 01:13, Robert Moskowitz  wrote:

On 02/02/2013 05:04 AM, Frank Murphy wrote:

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 02:02:18 -0800
Joe Zeff  wrote:


On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote:

There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a
vacuous point.

You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof
that my point is vacuous.  It's not up to me to refute your
baseless claim it's up to you to establish it.

I,m dyslexic, also have brain problems.


And fortunately for this dyslexic, in 7th grade English we REALLY learned
grammer.  We did sentence grammer trees; something that none of my children
ever benefited from.  Actually that visualization of grammer can make all
the difference to a dyslexic (read "The Gift of Dyslexia" by Ron Burns); we
think visually and have to translate back and forth to linear language.

Dyslexia is quite a specific thing that shouldn't prevent anyone from
further learning (unfortunately it does due to the integral part
reading plays in early education and, until fairly recently, poor
recognition). Proust and the Squid is another interesting book that
touches on this topic, and learning written English in general.

There was another post somewhere complaining about "Eats, Shoots and
Leaves" which seems to have missed that it's meant to be funny (the
clue is in the title).


Read it.  Loved it.


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-02 Thread Ian Malone

On 3 February 2013 01:13, Robert Moskowitz  wrote:
>
> On 02/02/2013 05:04 AM, Frank Murphy wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 02:02:18 -0800
>> Joe Zeff  wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote:

 There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a
 vacuous point.
>>>
>>> You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof
>>> that my point is vacuous.  It's not up to me to refute your
>>> baseless claim it's up to you to establish it.
>>
>> I,m dyslexic, also have brain problems.
>
>
> And fortunately for this dyslexic, in 7th grade English we REALLY learned
> grammer.  We did sentence grammer trees; something that none of my children
> ever benefited from.  Actually that visualization of grammer can make all
> the difference to a dyslexic (read "The Gift of Dyslexia" by Ron Burns); we
> think visually and have to translate back and forth to linear language.

Dyslexia is quite a specific thing that shouldn't prevent anyone from
further learning (unfortunately it does due to the integral part
reading plays in early education and, until fairly recently, poor
recognition). Proust and the Squid is another interesting book that
touches on this topic, and learning written English in general.

There was another post somewhere complaining about "Eats, Shoots and
Leaves" which seems to have missed that it's meant to be funny (the
clue is in the title).


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On 02/02/2013 10:33 AM, Lailah wrote:

El vie, 01-02-2013 a las 13:19 -0800, Joe Zeff escribió:

On 02/01/2013 01:05 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Joe Zeff mailto:j...@zeff.us>
> > wrote:
>
> As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by "an
> identical cousin?"
>
>
> Not I, but then I'm only 63.
>
> poc

So am I.  Follow this link and try not to kick yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Duke_Show

I never see that in my life.  People, I know is fun to make jokes with 
TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an 
international list.  The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of 
your stuff.

I learned this with RFC 2410, the Null Cypher for IPsec.

I was chair for IPsec at the time and I encouraged the authors to have 
fun with the RFC.  We have a lot of fun tidbits in various RFCs beyond 
the April 1st RFCs.  Read 2410, it CAN be fun, but a lot on non-US 
people will NOT get it.  Plus now almost 20 years later, the issues with 
ITAR have been forgotten by even US developers.

But when I worked on IPsec certification in ICSAlabs (I helped set up 
the ICSAlabs IPsec certification process) we got a asian implementation 
that would not interoperate with any other product for the Null cypher.  
I won't go into details, but they took parts of the jokes in 2410 
seriously and implemented them; wrongly.  So every other product that 
got this right dropped the ISAKMP handshake with their product.  There 
were some REALLY upset people in that company over this.

So I learned a real lesson on care in writing were people will come 
along later without the context.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?



On 02/02/2013 05:04 AM, Frank Murphy wrote:

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 02:02:18 -0800
Joe Zeff  wrote:


On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote:

There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a
vacuous point.

You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof
that my point is vacuous.  It's not up to me to refute your
baseless claim it's up to you to establish it.

I,m dyslexic, also have brain problems.


And fortunately for this dyslexic, in 7th grade English we REALLY 
learned grammer.  We did sentence grammer trees; something that none of 
my children ever benefited from.  Actually that visualization of grammer 
can make all the difference to a dyslexic (read "The Gift of Dyslexia" 
by Ron Burns); we think visually and have to translate back and forth to 
linear language.



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-02 Thread Marko Vojinovic

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 12:58:53 -0800
jdow  wrote:
> Of course some people use j instead of i when dealing with complex
> numbers. j am one of them.
> 
> {O,o}   I guess that makes me irrational?

I think you wanted to ask "J guess that makes me irrational?". Note
the use of j instead of i.

Either way, it makes you imaginary, not irrational... ;-)

Best, :-)
Marko

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?



On 02/01/2013 08:19 PM, doug wrote:

On 02/01/2013 07:52 PM, Craig White wrote:

/snip/

Reminds me of a book that I bought that looked interesting... "Eats 
Shoots & Leaves by Lynn Truss." It was about the need for things like 
punctuation to clarify the intent of something. In the end, the 
author includes a number of self adhesive commas, apostrophes, 
periods, semi-colons and colons so one can fix the world's signage 
guerrilla style. Yes, it's that absurd. It doesn't matter. 
I edit a small newsletter with about 1000 subscribers, and we get 
input from a variety of sources.
For some of them, I have promised to ship a barrel of commas, to be 
used liberally!


In IEEE 802 document editing we use them liberally.  It is EXTREMELY 
important that a later reader, who is not native to English MUST be able 
to read the document and implement the chip design and code correctly.  
We seem to debate endlessly the proper grammer and comma placement.  But 
then we have been burned badly in times past and know it is important to 
get it right.



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?



On 02/01/2013 08:16 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 02/01/2013 04:52 PM, Craig White wrote:

It's clear that you want this e-mail list, informal as it is to respect
your sense of proper grammar.


No, it's not "his sense of proper grammar," it's proper grammar as 
it's been taught in schools in every English speaking country for over 
a century now.


As I see it, there are three reasons people's grammar on this list 
falls short.  This is an international list and not all of the members 
have English as their first (or even second) language.  My attitude is 
that they're doing the best they can and as long as I can work out 
what they originally meant, that's all that matters. Second, there are 
native English speakers who either were never taught properly in 
school (I have a friend who has trouble with homonyms, using "flue" 
for "flew" and other such errors because of problems when she was 
young.)  And, of course, there are the people who were exposed to 
proper grammar, syntax and word usage but simply don't care.  On some 
mailing lists, people in both of the latter two groups would be flamed 
for their errors.  On this one, I keep my opinions to myself because I 
can't see any way it could possibly help and many ways it could end up 
making trouble for everybody.


Back in the days on some IETF lists we had a Japanese professor who's 
English was phenomenally good and would flame native speakers on their 
grammer.  Of course the gentleman could not speak a clear word of 
English (and still can't when I occationally meet up with him) which we 
all put up with as his genius really fixed a number of protocols that 
just were not going right.  There are a number of protocols you here use 
all the time that we would still be reving if he had not gotten up in a 
meeting and said, "here is how we should do this".





Now, of course, we're in a long, OT discussion of the issue and I 
think that if nothing else, it's let all of us who don't like bad 
grammar to air our opinions instead of bottling them up as we'd 
normally do.  No, I don't expect this to result in any change, but who 
knows; somebody might decide to be more careful because they'd never 
realized how it looks to others.


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/02/2013 12:58 PM, jdow wrote:


{O,o}   I guess that makes me irrational?


I'm sorry, but the number you have reached is imaginary.  Please rotate 
your phone ninety degrees and try again.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-02 Thread doug


On 02/02/2013 03:58 PM, jdow wrote:

On 2013/02/02 10:39, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 02/02/2013 07:33 AM, Lailah wrote:


I never see that in my life.  People, I know is fun to make jokes with
TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an
international list.  The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of your
stuff.


That, in fact, was exactly what I was demonstrating: for most of the 
people on
this list, that was long before they were born.  For me, however, 
it's the type
of reference I'd recognize, and I tend to forget sometimes that my 
audience

isn't old enough to share those experiences.
I'm getting tired of this thread, but before I go, I will say that I am 
definitely old

enough to have seen the TV show if I were dumb enough to watch sitcoms!

--doug
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-02 Thread jdow


On 2013/02/02 10:39, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 02/02/2013 07:33 AM, Lailah wrote:


I never see that in my life.  People, I know is fun to make jokes with
TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an
international list.  The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of your
stuff.


That, in fact, was exactly what I was demonstrating: for most of the people on
this list, that was long before they were born.  For me, however, it's the type
of reference I'd recognize, and I tend to forget sometimes that my audience
isn't old enough to share those experiences.


Of course some people use j instead of i when dealing with complex
numbers. j am one of them.

{O,o}   I guess that makes me irrational?
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-02 Thread David G . Miller

Antonio Olivares  inbox.com> writes:

> > And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions "the war,"
> > which war do you think of first?  

> War between the States!(Civil War)

I used to work with a gentleman who grew up in northern Virginia.  He said it
wasn't until he was in high school that he realized that the "Civil War" and
"The War of Northern Aggression" were two different names for the same event.

I'd swear that one of the most valuable contributions I make to any project I
work on is making sure that all of the people involved have the same
understanding of what we're doing and how we're going about doing it (frequently
that even entails me changing my view of what that is).  My vote is for anything
that promotes clear communication and solidly against anything that makes clear
communication more difficult.

Cheers,
Dave

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/02/2013 07:33 AM, Lailah wrote:


I never see that in my life.  People, I know is fun to make jokes with
TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an
international list.  The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of your
stuff.


That, in fact, was exactly what I was demonstrating: for most of the 
people on this list, that was long before they were born.  For me, 
however, it's the type of reference I'd recognize, and I tend to forget 
sometimes that my audience isn't old enough to share those experiences.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/02/2013 07:22 AM, Craig White wrote:

  Perhaps that is your point though, bombastically scoring
meaningless points.


And now we see the complete lack of content in your position: argument 
by insult.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

El vie, 01-02-2013 a las 13:19 -0800, Joe Zeff escribió:

> On 02/01/2013 01:05 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Joe Zeff  > > wrote:
> >
> > As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by "an
> > identical cousin?"
> >
> >
> > Not I, but then I'm only 63.
> >
> > poc
> 
> So am I.  Follow this link and try not to kick yourself: 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Duke_Show


I never see that in my life.  People, I know is fun to make jokes with
TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an
international list.  The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of your
stuff.


Regards from south,
Lailah


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

El vie, 01-02-2013 a las 14:41 -0800, Antonio Olivares escribió:

> > And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions "the war,"
> > which war do you think of first?  
> 
> War on Drugs!
> 
> War between the States!(Civil War)
> 
> War of 1812!
> 
> Spanish American War(1898--??)
> 
> War (WWI, WW2), Korea(which was not a war BTW), VietNam(also not a war), 
> Iraq(1990, ...), Afghanistan, ..., etc 
> 
> There are many ``wars'', the war on Open Source, the ``war against Gnome 3'', 
> the ``war against Unity'', the war against the U.S. Constitution.  The war of 
> ``Good'' vs ``Bad'' or ``Evil''.  
> 
> There are many wars.  and some to come to, North Korea, Israel, Pakistan, 
> Syria, Turkey, Iran, ... it never finishes :(
> 
> I wish we could all be little kids and like each other regardless of 
> ethnicity, country, and play and get along well not to repeat the mistakes 
> that have been made throughout history, but life is sadly not like that :(  
> 
> Some students tell others that there is no "i" in TEAM, but there is in TIM 
> if its misspelled to suit their needs.  And as has been mentioned, it 
> is[(it's) vs its], [your vs you're, which corresponds to you are] plus others 
> metioned by Marko V.  The dotless i, the o with the dots ö, there are many 
> things that change depending on the area one is in.  Pena is not the same as 
> Peña, and Trevino is not the same as Treviño, and ...
> 
> 
> Best Regards, 
> 
> 
> Antonio
> 
> 


Very true.


Lailah

> 


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

El vie, 01-02-2013 a las 12:26 -0800, Joe Zeff escribió:

> On 02/01/2013 11:13 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> >
> > As the ox ploughs IIRC (or plows if you prefer). I don't know if there
> > are any examples of the Romans using that, and the Greeks only did it
> > sometimes, probably to annoy people on mailing lists :-)
> 
> Very good!  And yes, AFAIK the Romans didn't copy that.  Please 
> understand, BTW, that I don't do things like that simply to see if 
> anybody understands it.  I do it because I assume that a fair number of 
> you will recognize what I'm saying and won't have to ask.
> 
> Wandering even farther off-topic for a moment, I often have a problem 
> when talking to younger people: I like to make pop culture references, 
> and tend to forget that what I'm referring to was way before anybody 
> else in the conversation was born.  As an example, does anybody reading 
> this know what I mean by "an identical cousin?"


Nope



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

El vie, 01-02-2013 a las 13:45 -0800, Joe Zeff escribió:

> On 02/01/2013 01:32 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I see you are prey to the misconception that I am familiar with the
> > history of US sitcoms. While I've seen several of them, not being
> > American myself I can't say I know this one.
> 
> I wasn't aware that you aren't an American, and I don't know how much 
> foreign exposure the show had.  Still, you can see why it's highly 
> unlikely that anybody of what you and I would call "the younger 
> generation" would have any more of an idea what I was talking about than 
> you did.
> 
> And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions "the war," 
> which war do you think of first?  I think that for most people it 
> depends on their age because they'll think of either the first one in 
> their lifetime or the first one they learned about when they were young. 
>   I'm a 'Nam vet, but to me, the first war I'll always think of is going 
> to be WW II because its after effects were still big when I was a child. 
>   Yes, there was Korea when I was small, but it didn't have any impact 
> on me, especially when compared to WW II.


Hello!

In my country, Uruguay  (between Argentine and Brazil),
teachers used to teach us History saying  "The Great War"  (La Gran
Guerra)  to talk about World War I,  and  "The World War"  (La Guerra
Mundial)  to talk about World War II.  So, to me, to say  "The War"
means nothing.  I had the bad luck to been born in an age full of
wars  :-S 



Regards from south,
Lailah
<>

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-02 Thread Craig White

On Sat, 2013-02-02 at 02:02 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote:
> > There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a vacuous
> > point.
> 
> You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof that 
> my point is vacuous.  It's not up to me to refute your baseless claim 
> it's up to you to establish it.

I haven't the slightest clue on how to prove that there isn't a problem.
I didn't claim there is a problem on this list - I said quite the
opposite... there isn't a problem.

Thus I never made a claim of a problem and can't reasonably be expected
to prove something that doesn't exist.

On the other hand, you are claiming there is a grammar problem on the
list and I requested that you offer proof rather than trying to score a
vacuous point. Perhaps that is your point though, bombastically scoring
meaningless points.

Craig

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-02 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan

On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Craig White  wrote:

> Probably in another form, another time and space (and medium), you and
> Patrick and I might become best of friends but I gotta tell you, get
> over yourself and your opinions and focus on something that actually
> matters.
>

Craig and Joe

I think we should just end this. It's leading nowhere and I suspect any
valid point on either side has already been aired. I do  not regret
bringing up the grammar issue in the first place because I think
communication matters and we should all try to do it as best we can
(arguments about irrelevance of grammatical rules notwithstanding). If it
makes some people review their posts before hitting Send, then fine. If it
causes some not to post for fear of criticism, then that was never the idea
and I hope they don't feel inhibited.

All the best.

poc
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-02 Thread Frank Murphy

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 02:02:18 -0800
Joe Zeff  wrote:

> On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote:
> > There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a
> > vacuous point.
> 
> You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof
> that my point is vacuous.  It's not up to me to refute your
> baseless claim it's up to you to establish it.

I,m dyslexic, also have brain problems. 

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http//www.frankly3d.com
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote:

There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a vacuous
point.


You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof that 
my point is vacuous.  It's not up to me to refute your baseless claim 
it's up to you to establish it.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-02 Thread Craig White

On Sat, 2013-02-02 at 01:36 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 02/01/2013 05:49 PM, Craig White wrote:
> > good grammar is actually a useful endeavor.
> 
> The purpose of this list is communication.  Good grammar facilitates it 
> while bad grammar impedes it.

but you are making a vacuous point and I would suggest that if you
wanted to give it validity, you only need to show us a message on this
list that lacking all reasonable excuses [1] someone's faulty grammar
impeded their communication.

There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a vacuous
point.

[1] Many reasons have already been given such as dyslexia, English is
not their first language, small device usage makes typing accurately
much more difficult, etc.

Craig

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/01/2013 05:49 PM, Craig White wrote:

good grammar is actually a useful endeavor.


The purpose of this list is communication.  Good grammar facilitates it 
while bad grammar impedes it.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Craig White

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 17:16 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 02/01/2013 04:52 PM, Craig White wrote:
> > It's clear that you want this e-mail list, informal as it is to respect
> > your sense of proper grammar.
> 
> No, it's not "his sense of proper grammar," it's proper grammar as it's 
> been taught in schools in every English speaking country for over a 
> century now.

but we're not in school here. There's no grades. The few who feel
lowered by having to trudge through all the e-mails with bad grammar can
find other lists where good grammar is actually a useful endeavor.

> As I see it, there are three reasons people's grammar on this list falls 
> short.  This is an international list and not all of the members have 
> English as their first (or even second) language.  My attitude is that 
> they're doing the best they can and as long as I can work out what they 
> originally meant, that's all that matters.  Second, there are native 
> English speakers who either were never taught properly in school (I have 
> a friend who has trouble with homonyms, using "flue" for "flew" and 
> other such errors because of problems when she was young.)  And, of 
> course, there are the people who were exposed to proper grammar, syntax 
> and word usage but simply don't care.  On some mailing lists, people in 
> both of the latter two groups would be flamed for their errors.  On this 
> one, I keep my opinions to myself because I can't see any way it could 
> possibly help and many ways it could end up making trouble for everybody.

As you see it? Who cares? I am not interested in hearing your personal
ambitions, your political beliefs or discussing your morals. Has
absolutely nothing to do with Fedora.

People intent on shaming others to comply with their phobias pertaining
to grammar, style and spelling errors should find another outlet to
satisfy their OCD needs.

> Now, of course, we're in a long, OT discussion of the issue and I think 
> that if nothing else, it's let all of us who don't like bad grammar to 
> air our opinions instead of bottling them up as we'd normally do.  No, I 
> don't expect this to result in any change, but who knows; somebody might 
> decide to be more careful because they'd never realized how it looks to 
> others.

well let me give you a clue on how it looks to at least one person...
overwrought, overbearing, pointless and self-indulgent.

The judgmental, snobbish, elitist opinions are clearly going to cause
more people not to post than they will encourage.

Probably in another form, another time and space (and medium), you and
Patrick and I might become best of friends but I gotta tell you, get
over yourself and your opinions and focus on something that actually
matters.

Craig

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread doug


On 02/01/2013 07:52 PM, Craig White wrote:

/snip/

Reminds me of a book that I bought that looked interesting... "Eats 
Shoots & Leaves by Lynn Truss." It was about the need for things like 
punctuation to clarify the intent of something. In the end, the author 
includes a number of self adhesive commas, apostrophes, periods, 
semi-colons and colons so one can fix the world's signage guerrilla 
style. Yes, it's that absurd. It doesn't matter. 
I edit a small newsletter with about 1000 subscribers, and we get input 
from a variety of sources.
For some of them, I have promised to ship a barrel of commas, to be used 
liberally!


--doug

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/01/2013 04:52 PM, Craig White wrote:

It's clear that you want this e-mail list, informal as it is to respect
your sense of proper grammar.


No, it's not "his sense of proper grammar," it's proper grammar as it's 
been taught in schools in every English speaking country for over a 
century now.


As I see it, there are three reasons people's grammar on this list falls 
short.  This is an international list and not all of the members have 
English as their first (or even second) language.  My attitude is that 
they're doing the best they can and as long as I can work out what they 
originally meant, that's all that matters.  Second, there are native 
English speakers who either were never taught properly in school (I have 
a friend who has trouble with homonyms, using "flue" for "flew" and 
other such errors because of problems when she was young.)  And, of 
course, there are the people who were exposed to proper grammar, syntax 
and word usage but simply don't care.  On some mailing lists, people in 
both of the latter two groups would be flamed for their errors.  On this 
one, I keep my opinions to myself because I can't see any way it could 
possibly help and many ways it could end up making trouble for everybody.


Now, of course, we're in a long, OT discussion of the issue and I think 
that if nothing else, it's let all of us who don't like bad grammar to 
air our opinions instead of bottling them up as we'd normally do.  No, I 
don't expect this to result in any change, but who knows; somebody might 
decide to be more careful because they'd never realized how it looks to 
others.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Craig White

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 05:58 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > This list is better off without the grammar, spelling, and style
> > police.  If you can't figure out what someone is saying then "you"
> > should not feel obliged to read it or answer it.
> 
> You seem to be taking this way too seriously. 

no - the list doesn't need grammar, spelling and style police.

Craig


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Craig White

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 00:35 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 13:44 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> > On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:07 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > > On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
> > > > Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Way way OT:
> > > >>
> > > >> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> > > >> "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when
> > > >> 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken,
> > > > Could be various reasons.
> > > > It's a multi-cultural list.
> > > > English as 2nd or 3rd language.
> > > > users may not have a western-style keyboard.
> > > > Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters)
> > > 
> > > I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher.
> > 
> > my oldest brother is probably the smartest person I know - and he was
> > dyslexic too. He is also a graduate chemical engineer, former union
> > organizer, economics professor (masters degree) and it's obvious that
> > while spelling and grammar checkers are a must for people with these
> > problems, the truth is that it's about effective communication and I
> > don't have much patience for those who want to insist on rules of
> > communication rather than just appreciate the communication.
> 
> If it were either/or, I would agree with you, but that's a straw man and
> a false dichotomy. With the exception of dyslexics (who AFAIK tend to be
> of above-average intelligence), it's not a question of either you
> communicate effectively or you follow grammar rules. Grammar rules exist
> in order to make communication more effective by reducing the amount of
> cognitive dissonance.  Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
> word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' instead of 'I', it
> interrupts my train of comprehension, even for a a few milliseconds.
> What's good about that?

It's clear that you want this e-mail list, informal as it is to respect
your sense of proper grammar. It won't and your diatribes won't change
that but might scare people away.

My wife (Chinese - been here 2 1/2 years) speaks better English than
many Americans. Some people are lazy, sloppy and probably know better
but just don't care. Some people are dyslexic. Some are merely adopting
fast/informal methods of other communication methods. Some just simply
struggle with English. There's no straw man argument... but - if it makes
you happy, we can just declare the "Patrick O'Callaghan" rule by getting
it added to the Fedora Users Mailing List Guidelines so you have a fully
loaded weapon to attack with. Sheesh

Reminds me of a book that I bought that looked interesting... "Eats
Shoots & Leaves by Lynn Truss." It was about the need for things like
punctuation to clarify the intent of something. In the end, the author
includes a number of self adhesive commas, apostrophes, periods,
semi-colons and colons so one can fix the world's signage guerrilla
style. Yes, it's that absurd.

It doesn't matter.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/01/2013 03:32 PM, David G. Miller wrote:

Yes and now I have the d**n jingle from the show going through my head "but
they're cousins, identical cousins..."


Just to make it even more fun, the Wikpedia article mentions that there 
was a third one: a distant cousin from Georgia that showed up in one 
episode in the second season.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread David G . Miller

Joe Zeff  zeff.us> writes:

> As an example, does anybody reading 
> this know what I mean by "an identical cousin?"

Yes and now I have the d**n jingle from the show going through my head "but
they're cousins, identical cousins..."

AAGGH!

Cheers,
Dave

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Antonio Olivares


> And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions "the war,"
> which war do you think of first?  

War on Drugs!

War between the States!(Civil War)

War of 1812!

Spanish American War(1898--??)

War (WWI, WW2), Korea(which was not a war BTW), VietNam(also not a war), 
Iraq(1990, ...), Afghanistan, ..., etc 

There are many ``wars'', the war on Open Source, the ``war against Gnome 3'', 
the ``war against Unity'', the war against the U.S. Constitution.  The war of 
``Good'' vs ``Bad'' or ``Evil''.  

There are many wars.  and some to come to, North Korea, Israel, Pakistan, 
Syria, Turkey, Iran, ... it never finishes :(

I wish we could all be little kids and like each other regardless of ethnicity, 
country, and play and get along well not to repeat the mistakes that have been 
made throughout history, but life is sadly not like that :(  

Some students tell others that there is no "i" in TEAM, but there is in TIM if 
its misspelled to suit their needs.  And as has been mentioned, it is[(it's) vs 
its], [your vs you're, which corresponds to you are] plus others metioned by 
Marko V.  The dotless i, the o with the dots ö, there are many things that 
change depending on the area one is in.  Pena is not the same as Peña, and 
Trevino is not the same as Treviño, and ...


Best Regards, 


Antonio


FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Joe Zeff  wrote:

> And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions "the war,"
> which war do you think of first?  I think that for most people it depends
> on their age because they'll think of either the first one in their
> lifetime or the first one they learned about when they were young.  I'm a
> 'Nam vet, but to me, the first war I'll always think of is going to be WW
> II because its after effects were still big when I was a child.  Yes, there
> was Korea when I was small, but it didn't have any impact on me, especially
> when compared to WW II.
>

I think it's also a cultural thing. In the UK, despite a number of more
recent conflicts which were certainly wars and are even called as such (the
Falklands war for example), *the* war means WWII.

poc
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/01/2013 01:32 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

I see you are prey to the misconception that I am familiar with the
history of US sitcoms. While I've seen several of them, not being
American myself I can't say I know this one.


I wasn't aware that you aren't an American, and I don't know how much 
foreign exposure the show had.  Still, you can see why it's highly 
unlikely that anybody of what you and I would call "the younger 
generation" would have any more of an idea what I was talking about than 
you did.


And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions "the war," 
which war do you think of first?  I think that for most people it 
depends on their age because they'll think of either the first one in 
their lifetime or the first one they learned about when they were young. 
 I'm a 'Nam vet, but to me, the first war I'll always think of is going 
to be WW II because its after effects were still big when I was a child. 
 Yes, there was Korea when I was small, but it didn't have any impact 
on me, especially when compared to WW II.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Eddie O'Connor

I do!LoL!
On Feb 1, 2013 3:26 PM, "Joe Zeff"  wrote:

> On 02/01/2013 11:13 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>
>>
>> As the ox ploughs IIRC (or plows if you prefer). I don't know if there
>> are any examples of the Romans using that, and the Greeks only did it
>> sometimes, probably to annoy people on mailing lists :-)
>>
>
> Very good!  And yes, AFAIK the Romans didn't copy that.  Please
> understand, BTW, that I don't do things like that simply to see if anybody
> understands it.  I do it because I assume that a fair number of you will
> recognize what I'm saying and won't have to ask.
>
> Wandering even farther off-topic for a moment, I often have a problem when
> talking to younger people: I like to make pop culture references, and tend
> to forget that what I'm referring to was way before anybody else in the
> conversation was born.  As an example, does anybody reading this know what
> I mean by "an identical cousin?"
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 13:19 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 02/01/2013 01:05 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Joe Zeff  > > wrote:
> >
> > As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by "an
> > identical cousin?"
> >
> >
> > Not I, but then I'm only 63.
> >
> > poc
> 
> So am I.  Follow this link and try not to kick yourself: 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Duke_Show

I see you are prey to the misconception that I am familiar with the
history of US sitcoms. While I've seen several of them, not being
American myself I can't say I know this one.

That and knowing virtually nothing about basketball, baseball and
American football, can make the NY Times crossword puzzle more difficult
than strictly necessary. I can remember two common answers, ORR and OTT,
but can never distinguish between them.

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/01/2013 01:05 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:


On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Joe Zeff mailto:j...@zeff.us>> wrote:

As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by "an
identical cousin?"


Not I, but then I'm only 63.

poc


So am I.  Follow this link and try not to kick yourself: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Duke_Show

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Joe Zeff  wrote:

> As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by "an identical
> cousin?"


Not I, but then I'm only 63.

poc
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/01/2013 11:18 AM, Doug wrote:

I don't think people liked Sarah Palin. I think if McCain had picked
someone that wasn't perceived as a bimbo, he would have won the
election. As it was, not only were the people afraid of him
dying and leaving her in charge, but it also reflected on his judgment.


You might be right; in fact, if you substitute "Democrats" for "people," 
you probably are, but that's just a matter of partisan politics.  There 
were people who liked her enough to get her elected as Governor of 
Alaska, and my impression was that she had a small following 
nation-wide.  I was writing about what those people liked about her, not 
why (or if) she was liked by a large percentage of the populace.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/01/2013 11:13 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:


As the ox ploughs IIRC (or plows if you prefer). I don't know if there
are any examples of the Romans using that, and the Greeks only did it
sometimes, probably to annoy people on mailing lists :-)


Very good!  And yes, AFAIK the Romans didn't copy that.  Please 
understand, BTW, that I don't do things like that simply to see if 
anybody understands it.  I do it because I assume that a fair number of 
you will recognize what I'm saying and won't have to ask.


Wandering even farther off-topic for a moment, I often have a problem 
when talking to younger people: I like to make pop culture references, 
and tend to forget that what I'm referring to was way before anybody 
else in the conversation was born.  As an example, does anybody reading 
this know what I mean by "an identical cousin?"

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/01/2013 10:14 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:

I do hope you realize I was being sarcastic?I was trying to point
out that some people's definition of "cool" was whatever and whomever
was in the lime light at the momentsorry if you took it
seriously.t'wasnt my intention


It's often hard to judge a person's "tone of typer," but it's not really 
important.  You gave a list of examples and I gave you my own opinion of 
them.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Doug


On 02/01/2013 01:14 PM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:

/snip/


As far as Sarah Palin goes, my impression was that people liked
her because she wasn't ashamed of her opinions and she never
pretended to be anything except what she was.  Calling Mit Romney
an ignoramus only shows that you didn't like his political
opinions and think that that makes it OK to call him names.  That
tells me more about you than of him but I'm going to drop the
subject RIGHT NOW because I don't consider it OK to do that and I
prefer to live up to my principles.


/snip/

I don't think people liked Sarah Palin. I think if McCain had picked 
someone that wasn't perceived as a bimbo, he would have won the 
election. As it was, not only were the people afraid of him

dying and leaving her in charge, but it also reflected on his judgment.

Just my 2¢  --doug
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Joe Zeff  wrote:

> On 02/01/2013 05:48 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>
>> What's the problem? I merely used the conventions of ancient Greek and
>> Roman writing (though strictly speaking I should have put it all in
>> upper case), and you clearly understood it. Isn't the content more
>> important than the style?
>>
>
> If you really wanted to follow the conventions of ancient Greek, you would
> have had more than one line so that it could be done boustrophedon[1] style.


As the ox ploughs IIRC (or plows if you prefer). I don't know if there are
any examples of the Romans using that, and the Greeks only did it
sometimes, probably to annoy people on mailing lists :-)

poc
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/01/2013 05:48 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

What's the problem? I merely used the conventions of ancient Greek and
Roman writing (though strictly speaking I should have put it all in
upper case), and you clearly understood it. Isn't the content more
important than the style?


If you really wanted to follow the conventions of ancient Greek, you 
would have had more than one line so that it could be done 
boustrophedon[1] style.


[1]I'm astonished.  Twice.  Not only did my spelling checker recognize 
that word, I got it right!

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 02/01/2013 05:35 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Love it (though it's "would", not "will" :-)


Yes.  Of course.  I should have realized that.  However, I'm glad to see 
that at least one person on this list knew the reference.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Eddie O'Connor

I do hope you realize I was being sarcastic?I was trying to point out
that some people's definition of "cool" was whatever and whomever was in
the lime light at the momentsorry if you took it seriously.t'wasnt
my intention
On Jan 31, 2013 4:38 PM, "Joe Zeff"  wrote:

> On 01/31/2013 12:20 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
>
>> To answerlook at society: Sarah Palin.Mit Romney...Lance
>> ArmstrongKanye West.the Kardashians!LoL! Are they not the
>> very pinnacle...nay the epitome of "Cool"?...
>>
>
> As far as Sarah Palin goes, my impression was that people liked her
> because she wasn't ashamed of her opinions and she never pretended to be
> anything except what she was.  Calling Mit Romney an ignoramus only shows
> that you didn't like his political opinions and think that that makes it OK
> to call him names.  That tells me more about you than of him but I'm going
> to drop the subject RIGHT NOW because I don't consider it OK to do that and
> I prefer to live up to my principles.
>
> No, I don't consider anybody on that list "the epitome of cool," because I
> remember when there were people like Kookie, who really were cool.
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread g


On 02/01/2013 01:43 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 11:16 +, g wrote:
<>
>> there are way too many on this list that live such a life that they do
>> not believe that their way is the only way to do things.
>
> You might want to re-parse that.

most true. ;)

} there are way too many on this list that live such a life that
} they believe that their way is the only way to do things.

> poc

thank you for noting.

all i can say is that it was late and i wa up too many hours.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Bill Oliver

On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Reindl Harald wrote:

Am 01.02.2013 15:21, schrieb Bill Oliver:

On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Reindl Harald wrote:

Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of writing
you are using here, to be rude,
disrespectful and childish - I am one of these

fine that i work with people for which is content more
important than style - the other way is childish for me

Is that why you don't comment your code :-)?

40-60 % of my code are comments and they are usually
written before the code is implemented and the code
as long debugged as it does what the comment says

that is a completly different topic

code-comments are for quality and documentation
over the years - uppercase letters are the as useless
as in written communication

Ah, I see. Style is important when you think it's important, even if others
don't want to bother with it. It's not important when you don't want to bother
with it, even though others think it's important. Sort of like wearing plaid
pants and purple sneakers to work. There's people who think that if someone
has 60% of their code as comment, then they are just being chatty, not making
their work clear.

It's not a completely different topic. I might complain that "You know, using "//" to denote
a comment is *completely* arbitrary. I could just as easily use "/&." So I think I will, and
screw all those compilers who think that they can force me to write in a way I don't want to.

But it turns out that, if you want to talk to the compiler and not have it
confused and have your work tossed out, you really have to use the convention.
Because the *convention* serves a purpose, even if the actual rules are
sometimes arbitrary.

Talking to people is pretty much the same.

I might think that wearing plaid pants and purple sneakers is just fine. And
in some circumstances it might be. But when I go to court and stand in front
of a jury, or when I go to the penthouse offices and talk to CEOs, or when I go
to the Pentagon and talk to a four-star general (and I've done them all), plaid
pants and purple sneakers just don't cut it.

You are free to use "i" instead of "I." You can jut out your chin and say how
people who use conventional styles are rigid morons. But recognize that most of them will think
you are a self-indulgent moron and, worse, an arrogant one who is more concerned with himself than
with others.

billo
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 01.02.2013 15:21, schrieb Bill Oliver:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Reindl Harald wrote:
> 
>>> Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of 
>>> writing you are using here, to be rude,
>>> disrespectful and childish - I am one of these
>>
>> fine that i work with people for which is content more
>> important than style - the other way is childish for me
> 
> Is that why you don't comment your code :-)?

40-60 % of my code are comments and they are usually
written before the code is implemented and the code
as long debugged as it does what the comment says

that is a completly different topic

code-comments are for quality and documentation
over the years - uppercase letters are the as useless
as in written communication



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Bill Oliver


On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Reindl Harald wrote:





Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of writing 
you are using here, to be rude,
disrespectful and childish - I am one of these


fine that i work with people for which is content more
important than style - the other way is childish for me




Is that why you don't comment your code :-)?

Style and content are like form and function.  Ignoring one harms the
other.

billo
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 14:41 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> 
> Am 01.02.2013 14:37, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
> > On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 09:53 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> >>
> >> Am 01.02.2013 07:29, schrieb Ralf Corsepius:
> >>> On 02/01/2013 01:44 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> 
>  Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
> > Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
> > word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i'
> > instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension
> 
>  well, that is your personal problem
> 
>  in fact here in german speaking countries there are
>  way more words which are normally not written lowercase
>  at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email
>  and so on without a single uppercase letter
> >>>
> >>> Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of 
> >>> writing you are using here, to be rude,
> >>> disrespectful and childish - I am one of these
> >>
> >> fine that i work with people for which is content more
> >> important than style - the other way is childish for me
> > 
> > wellthatstherestofusputinourplacethenisntit
> 
> this is as laughable as your thread at all
> 
> if you do not realize the differene between writing 'i' instead of 'I'
> or write lowercase at all and strip out spaces between words i fear
> nobody can help you

What's the problem? I merely used the conventions of ancient Greek and
Roman writing (though strictly speaking I should have put it all in
upper case), and you clearly understood it. Isn't the content more
important than the style?

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 11:16 +, g wrote:
> On 02/01/2013 05:38 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> <>
> > This list is better off without the grammar, spelling, and style police.
> > If you can't figure out what someone is saying then "you" should not
> > feel obliged to read it or answer it.
> 
> thank you. i could not agree with you more.
> 
> there are way too many on this list that live such a life that they do
> not believe that their way is the only way to do things.

You might want to re-parse that.

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 01.02.2013 14:37, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
> On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 09:53 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>
>> Am 01.02.2013 07:29, schrieb Ralf Corsepius:
>>> On 02/01/2013 01:44 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:

 Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
> Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
> word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i'
> instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension

 well, that is your personal problem

 in fact here in german speaking countries there are
 way more words which are normally not written lowercase
 at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email
 and so on without a single uppercase letter
>>>
>>> Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of 
>>> writing you are using here, to be rude,
>>> disrespectful and childish - I am one of these
>>
>> fine that i work with people for which is content more
>> important than style - the other way is childish for me
> 
> wellthatstherestofusputinourplacethenisntit

this is as laughable as your thread at all

if you do not realize the differene between writing 'i' instead of 'I'
or write lowercase at all and strip out spaces between words i fear
nobody can help you



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 09:53 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> 
> Am 01.02.2013 07:29, schrieb Ralf Corsepius:
> > On 02/01/2013 01:44 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> >>
> >> Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
> >>> Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
> >>> word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i'
> >>> instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension
> >>
> >> well, that is your personal problem
> >>
> >> in fact here in german speaking countries there are
> >> way more words which are normally not written lowercase
> >> at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email
> >> and so on without a single uppercase letter
> > 
> > Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of 
> > writing you are using here, to be rude,
> > disrespectful and childish - I am one of these
> 
> fine that i work with people for which is content more
> important than style - the other way is childish for me

wellthatstherestofusputinourplacethenisntit

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 23:19 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 01/31/2013 09:52 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > I know you could care less, but she sees your posts as being indirectly 
> > critical of her, her background, and her education.   I would tell you what 
> > she said, but it doesn't translate well into English.
> 
> Yes, I could care less.  I suspect that what you meant is "you couldn't 
> care less."  As it is, I regret hearing that your wife feels that way; 
> please assure her that some of us, at least, were only writing about 
> native English speakers who mangle their own language.

+1

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 23:14 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 01/31/2013 08:42 PM, Tim wrote:
> > The misuse of "loose" and "lose" bugs me the most, second is probably
> > "dose" instead of "does."  But seeing someone type in all-caps tends to
> > be far more annoying that someone posting in all-lower-case.
> 
> Let us not forget the people who can't be bothered to learn the 
> difference between there, their and they're and simply use thier for all 
> of them.

Not to mention your and you're, its and it's and doubtless many others.

> I've got a little list.
> They never will be missed.

Love it (though it's "would", not "will" :-)

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Ian Malone

On 1 February 2013 00:27, Dan Thurman  wrote:
> On 01/31/2013 07:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> Way way OT:
>>
>> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",

>> poc
> Maybe Apple started it? ;)

In that case anyone doing it probably owes royalties. The mailing list
might need to institute a fine to pay them.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Ian Malone

On 31 January 2013 23:37, Marko Vojinovic  wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
> Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
>> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
>> "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1)
>> their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet
>> e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
>> minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
>> expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
>> teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
>> want to know.
>
> Speaking of that, I never understood why is the "I" capitalized in
> English?
>
> Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the "I"? ;-)
>
> To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes
> this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very
> explicit that the "I" should always be capitalized, none of them has
> ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so.
>

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_%28pronoun%29 claims there is
no known reason. However it's unusual in being a single-letter word so
the suggestions of illegibility of single letter lowercase and
accidental introduction are probably strong factors. Also remember
that *lower* case is the more recent invention,

> While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking
> care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the
> completely "randomized" spelling rules in English language. Or rather
> the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those
> rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read
> and write.
>
> For example, the concept of "spelling competitions" in elementary
> schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English
> schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell
> words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not
> considered to be a skill worth competing over.
>

> But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent
> spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D
>
> And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the
> proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-)
>

Actually, these two are coupled in a way that's not obvious to a
non-native speaker (and many native speakers too). English spelling
reflects pronunciation quite closely, what makes it difficult is that
many graphemes are re-used. You can hear some of this in the
difference between American and British accents where Webster's
spellings seem to correspond to changes in pronunction (sometimes
quite extreme, ax for ask). Remember most speakers learn the language
before they learn the writing system, learning foreign languages is
done backwards in a way. Also many other languages that haven't
relentlessly revised their spelling rules also make use of graphemes.
English has a lot of loan words of different origins which is a
contributing factor. If you don't believe people compete over spelling
in other languages you might want to have a look at Chinese.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread g


On 02/01/2013 05:38 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
<>
> This list is better off without the grammar, spelling, and style police.
> If you can't figure out what someone is saying then "you" should not
> feel obliged to read it or answer it.

thank you. i could not agree with you more.

there are way too many on this list that live such a life that they do
not believe that their way is the only way to do things.

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tc.hago,

g
.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Marko Vojinovic

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 05:32:47 +
Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 15:12 +1030, Tim wrote:
> > The misuse of "loose" and "lose" bugs me the most, second is
> > probably "dose" instead of "does."
> 
> I'm with you there. Also the confusion between "choose" and "chose".

Also your and you're, it's and its. ;-)

HTH, :-)
Marko

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-02-01 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 01.02.2013 07:29, schrieb Ralf Corsepius:
> On 02/01/2013 01:44 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>
>> Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
>>> Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
>>> word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i'
>>> instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension
>>
>> well, that is your personal problem
>>
>> in fact here in german speaking countries there are
>> way more words which are normally not written lowercase
>> at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email
>> and so on without a single uppercase letter
> 
> Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of 
> writing you are using here, to be rude,
> disrespectful and childish - I am one of these

fine that i work with people for which is content more
important than style - the other way is childish for me



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 01/31/2013 09:52 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:

I know you could care less, but she sees your posts as being indirectly 
critical of her, her background, and her education.   I would tell you what she 
said, but it doesn't translate well into English.


Yes, I could care less.  I suspect that what you meant is "you couldn't 
care less."  As it is, I regret hearing that your wife feels that way; 
please assure her that some of us, at least, were only writing about 
native English speakers who mangle their own language.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 01/31/2013 08:42 PM, Tim wrote:

The misuse of "loose" and "lose" bugs me the most, second is probably
"dose" instead of "does."  But seeing someone type in all-caps tends to
be far more annoying that someone posting in all-lower-case.


Let us not forget the people who can't be bothered to learn the 
difference between there, their and they're and simply use thier for all 
of them.


I've got a little list.
They never will be missed.
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Ralf Corsepius


On 02/01/2013 01:44 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:


Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:

Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i'
instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension


well, that is your personal problem

in fact here in german speaking countries there are
way more words which are normally not written lowercase
at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email
and so on without a single uppercase letter


Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of 
writing you are using here, to be rude, disrespectful and childish - I 
am one of these.


Sure, it's tolerated in private SMS correspondence, but no so in written 
correspondence.


Ralf



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 13:38 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> I will probably ask my wife to start typing all of my queries and
> replies.  She is Chinese.  Chinese doesn't have upper/lower case.  As
> such, she often doesn't capitalize "correctly".   And, her grammar is
> probably not up to your standards. 

My comments are in no way directed at non-native English speakers. Most
of the examples I'm thinking of do not fall into this category. In fact
many non-native speakers seem to write more correct English than the
rest of us.

> This list is better off without the grammar, spelling, and style
> police.  If you can't figure out what someone is saying then "you"
> should not feel obliged to read it or answer it.

You seem to be taking this way too seriously.

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Ed Greshko

On 02/01/2013 01:38 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> She is Chinese.  Chinese doesn't have upper/lower case.  As such, she often 
> doesn't capitalize "correctly".   And, her grammar is probably not up to your 
> standards.

Ooopsss...  My wife just hit me over the head  Of course she is Taiwanese. 

She also wanted me to inform the public that her spelling is awful as well.  
And spell check doesn't always help her that much, with English not being her 
native language.

I know you could care less, but she sees your posts as being indirectly 
critical of her, her background, and her education.   I would tell you what she 
said, but it doesn't translate well into English.

Hey, let's now enter into a tangent about how to properly characterize 
someone's ethnic background.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 16:07 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> My copy of this is back in the mid-90s:
> 
> Vy  Knot?

George Bernard Shaw left money in his will to promote the
rationalization of English spelling, but to no avail. One of his
well-known examples was the word ghoti:

gh as in enough
o as in women
ti as in station

giving us the pronunciation "fish".

Rules of grammar and spelling are about convention, not logic. Breaking
the convention makes things harder to understand. That's really my only
point.

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Ed Greshko

On 02/01/2013 01:24 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 08:50 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> Besides, haven't you indicated that people should trim posts so as not
>> to waste bandwidth?  Do you really think this thread is worthy of the
>> bandwidth and the disk space it is taking up?
> As I've said, it's clearly OT so no-one should feel obliged to read it.
> Quoting long messages without trimming in a reply to an on-topic thread
> is an entirely different thing.
>

It still gets sent over the network, and it still takes up disk space.  And it 
is petty. 

I will probably ask my wife to start typing all of my queries and replies.  She 
is Chinese.  Chinese doesn't have upper/lower case.  As such, she often doesn't 
capitalize "correctly".   And, her grammar is probably not up to your 
standards. 

This list is better off without the grammar, spelling, and style police.  If 
you can't figure out what someone is saying then "you" should not feel obliged 
to read it or answer it.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 15:12 +1030, Tim wrote:
> The misuse of "loose" and "lose" bugs me the most, second is probably
> "dose" instead of "does."

I'm with you there. Also the confusion between "choose" and "chose".

> But seeing someone type in all-caps tends to
> be far more annoying that someone posting in all-lower-case.

Indeed, but at least the ALL CAPS transgression is widely recognized and
condemned. There's no controversy about it as far as I'm aware.

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 08:50 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> Besides, haven't you indicated that people should trim posts so as not
> to waste bandwidth?  Do you really think this thread is worthy of the
> bandwidth and the disk space it is taking up?

As I've said, it's clearly OT so no-one should feel obliged to read it.
Quoting long messages without trimming in a reply to an on-topic thread
is an entirely different thing.

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Tim

Allegedly, on or about 31 January 2013, Patrick O'Callaghan sent:
> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> "i",

Any of - they don't know better, they don't care in the first place,
they don't care about correcting typing errors, they didn't notice,
they're typing one-handed, they're so used to spelling correctors
auto-correcting their typing for them...

The misuse of "loose" and "lose" bugs me the most, second is probably
"dose" instead of "does."  But seeing someone type in all-caps tends to
be far more annoying that someone posting in all-lower-case.

Usually I gloss over the occasional one, but some messages require an
awful lot of interpretation trying to figure out what they meant, thanks
to their complete lack of structure.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Tim

Allegedly, on or about 31 January 2013, Craig White sent:
> better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by
> SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger
> generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules.
> 
> Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA. 

Of course, one can have their revenge by using proper language when
talking to / writing to these youngsters, and make them equally flumuxed
when trying to understand what you've written.  ;-)

I say that, mainly, in jest.  But it's been my experience with some
modern teenagers, that their grasp of language is rather poor.  Never
mind the written word, even the odd three-syllable word in spoken
language, with nothing much more unusual than the words being used in
this email, from you and I, gets blank stares and needs explaining and
rewording.

And why might that be?  Because reading and writing, more specifically
being taught both of them, fell out of fashion.  I don't mean something
heavy like learning Shakespeare by heart, or latin, just plain old
ordinary language of the current day.  Some of the year 12's work, that
I looked at, bordered on remedial primary school.  In just about all
ways; length, grammar, punctuation, and very immature language.  If they
spent anything more than about five minutes on it, I'd be really
appalled.

While you might call it "grammar snobbery," it does them no favour when
they can't read or right well enough to apply for a job and keep it.
Some even can't follow the instructions for applying to the job.  Which
relates to a second failing of our current education system, thinking
that you don't actually having to do what you're told to do.  And you
can see the follow-through of that in various ways, thinking that the
road rules and laws of the land are something that other people have to
adhere to.


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trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.


On 01/31/2013 04:07 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:


On 01/31/2013 03:38 PM, Craig White wrote:

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:55 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.

Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
off my chest. Feel free to ignore.


better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by
SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger
generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules.

Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA.


My copy of this is back in the mid-90s:

   Vy  Knot?


Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the
European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways
of improving efficiency in communications between Government
departments.

European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is
unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough,
through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme
of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of
course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by
participating nations.

In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's'
instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities
would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced
by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this
klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters
kould be made with one less letter.

There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was
announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'.
This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty persent shorter in print.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be
expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are
possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double leters
whish have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al
agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful.
Therefor we kould drop them and kontinu to read and writ as though
nothing had hapend.

By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would
be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'.  Perhaps zen ze
funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a
'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from vords
kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer
kombinations of leters.  Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud
eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no
mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud find it ezi tu understand ech
ozer. Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru.






OMG!...this is HILARIOUS!>I LOVE it!...LoL!


EGO II
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Matthew Miller

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 05:41:58PM -0800, Gary Kline wrote:
> my first/last two pennies: "very early on", typesetters had
> difficulty telling the difference between "i" and "j" since
> manuscripts were written in longhand.
> 
> I heard this in grade school, tho, so it may have been made up
> to keep students quiet.


http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/7986/why-should-the-first-person-pronoun-i-always-be-capitalized

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Gary Kline

On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 12:37:47AM +0100, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
> Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> > Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> > "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1)
> > their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet
> > e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
> > minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
> > expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
> > teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
> > want to know.
> 
> Speaking of that, I never understood why is the "I" capitalized in
> English?


my first/last two pennies: "very early on", typesetters had
difficulty telling the difference between "i" and "j" since
manuscripts were written in longhand.

I heard this in grade school, tho, so it may have been made up
to keep students quiet.




> Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the "I"? ;-)
> 
> To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes
> this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very
> explicit that the "I" should always be capitalized, none of them has
> ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so.
> 
> While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking
> care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the
> completely "randomized" spelling rules in English language. Or rather
> the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those
> rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read
> and write.
> 
> For example, the concept of "spelling competitions" in elementary
> schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English
> schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell
> words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not
> considered to be a skill worth competing over.
> 
> But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent
> spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D
> 
> And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the
> proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-)
> 
> Best, :-)
> Marko
> 
> 
> 
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Marko Vojinovic

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 08:50:09 +0800
Ed Greshko  wrote:

> On 02/01/2013 08:28 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > As far as I'm aware, this is the only time the subject has come up
> > in all the years I've been on this list. And I clearly flagged it
> > as OT, so don't feel you need to read it.
> 
> I've always felt the OT was meant to indicate a computer related
> question which may not directly relate to Fedora.  I didn't think it
> was a catch all to be used to start a discussion on one's personal
> pet peeves.

Well, technically, the OP might argue that this topic is related to the
netiquette of the mailing list postings in general, etc., and therefore
in an OT-way still related to this mailing list...

But I think it's just "that time of the month", so to speak. ;-) We
didn't have the regular king-sized-off-topic-troll-party-thread for
quite some time now, so it is only natural that one such appears sooner
than later. Actually, AFAIK this is the very first such thread in 2013,
so I feel kind of enthusiastic about it... :-D

Best, :-)
Marko

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Doug


On 01/31/2013 07:12 PM, Mark LaPierre wrote:

On 01/31/2013 10:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:




Another irritating colloquial "figure of speech" is the use of the 
word "and" in place of the word "to" in association with the word "try".


Example, I will try and work that out.

Is the speaker going to try that out, or is the speaker going to work 
that out, or is the speaker planning on both?  What I assume is the 
speaker meant that the speaker will try to work that out.



Are you perhaps familiar with the word "idiom?"

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Ed Greshko

On 02/01/2013 08:28 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> As far as I'm aware, this is the only time the subject has come up in
> all the years I've been on this list. And I clearly flagged it as OT, so
> don't feel you need to read it.

I've always felt the OT was meant to indicate a computer related question which 
may not directly relate to Fedora.  I didn't think it was a catch all to be 
used to start a discussion on one's personal pet peeves.

Heck, if your post is to be encourage then why not start post about "gun 
rights" or "Tibet" or   pick your poison.   Just as the follow-on has shown 
the tangents to be endless and the opinions to be endless and .

Besides, haven't you indicated that people should trim posts so as not to waste 
bandwidth?  Do you really think this thread is worthy of the bandwidth and the 
disk space it is taking up?

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better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, The Wizardry 
Compiled
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Reindl Harald


Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
> Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
> word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' 
> instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension

well, that is your personal problem

in fact here in german speaking countries there are
way more words which are normally not written lowercase
at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email
and so on without a single uppercase letter



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 13:44 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:07 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
> > > On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
> > > Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Way way OT:
> > >>
> > >> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> > >> "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when
> > >> 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken,
> > > Could be various reasons.
> > > It's a multi-cultural list.
> > > English as 2nd or 3rd language.
> > > users may not have a western-style keyboard.
> > > Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters)
> > 
> > I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher.
> 
> my oldest brother is probably the smartest person I know - and he was
> dyslexic too. He is also a graduate chemical engineer, former union
> organizer, economics professor (masters degree) and it's obvious that
> while spelling and grammar checkers are a must for people with these
> problems, the truth is that it's about effective communication and I
> don't have much patience for those who want to insist on rules of
> communication rather than just appreciate the communication.

If it were either/or, I would agree with you, but that's a straw man and
a false dichotomy. With the exception of dyslexics (who AFAIK tend to be
of above-average intelligence), it's not a question of either you
communicate effectively or you follow grammar rules. Grammar rules exist
in order to make communication more effective by reducing the amount of
cognitive dissonance.  Reading is not done letter by letter or word by
word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' instead of 'I', it
interrupts my train of comprehension, even for a a few milliseconds.
What's good about that?

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 16:44 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 23:27 +, David G.Miller wrote:
> > Joe Zeff  zeff.us> writes:
> > 
> > > 
> > > On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote:
> > > > I'd think it's the coolness thing.
> > > 
> > > What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?
> > I just go with these are the same people who aren't intelligent enough to
> > operate a baseball cap so they end up wearing it backwards.
> 
> anyone who rides a motorcycle needs no explanation of why wearing a
> baseball cap backwards is a good thing.
> 
> The endless meta chatter on this topic is rather pointless.

As far as I'm aware, this is the only time the subject has come up in
all the years I've been on this list. And I clearly flagged it as OT, so
don't feel you need to read it.

> If the point of the OP was to make non-native English speakers
> uncomfortable so they won't post for fear of being attacked, then we
> really don't need to support that effort.

Well, since the predicate doesn't apply, we can safely ignore the
conclusion. And several of the most visible proponents do not appear to
be non-native English speakers.

poc

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Dan Thurman

On 01/31/2013 07:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Way way OT:
>
> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
> not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
> Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
> cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
> minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
> expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
> teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
> want to know.
>
> Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
> off my chest. Feel free to ignore.
>
> poc
Maybe Apple started it? ;)
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Mark LaPierre


On 01/31/2013 10:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.

Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
off my chest. Feel free to ignore.

poc



Another irritating colloquial "figure of speech" is the use of the word 
"and" in place of the word "to" in association with the word "try".


Example, I will try and work that out.

Is the speaker going to try that out, or is the speaker going to work 
that out, or is the speaker planning on both?  What I assume is the 
speaker meant that the speaker will try to work that out.


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Bill Oliver



The reason I was taught was the transition from the Old English equivalent 
"ich."   When the word dropped from three letters to one letter, it was 
capitalized to point out that it was a separate word rather than a typographical error.  
This doesn't make a lot of sense in modern typography, but I can see where that might be 
the case in hand-written scripts, sort of like the ampersand.

Here's a reference that says the same thing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03wwln-guestsafire-t.html?_r=0

billo

On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Marko Vojinovic wrote:


On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
"i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1)
their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet
e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.


Speaking of that, I never understood why is the "I" capitalized in
English?

Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the "I"? ;-)

To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes
this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very
explicit that the "I" should always be capitalized, none of them has
ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so.

While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking
care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the
completely "randomized" spelling rules in English language. Or rather
the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those
rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read
and write.

For example, the concept of "spelling competitions" in elementary
schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English
schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell
words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not
considered to be a skill worth competing over.

But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent
spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D

And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the
proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-)

Best, :-)
Marko



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Craig White

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 23:27 +, David G.Miller wrote:
> Joe Zeff  zeff.us> writes:
> 
> > 
> > On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote:
> > > I'd think it's the coolness thing.
> > 
> > What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?
> I just go with these are the same people who aren't intelligent enough to
> operate a baseball cap so they end up wearing it backwards.

anyone who rides a motorcycle needs no explanation of why wearing a
baseball cap backwards is a good thing.

The endless meta chatter on this topic is rather pointless.

If the point of the OP was to make non-native English speakers
uncomfortable so they won't post for fear of being attacked, then we
really don't need to support that effort.

Craig

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Marko Vojinovic

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1)
> their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet
> e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
> minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
> expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
> teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
> want to know.

Speaking of that, I never understood why is the "I" capitalized in
English?

Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the "I"? ;-)

To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes
this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very
explicit that the "I" should always be capitalized, none of them has
ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so.

While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking
care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the
completely "randomized" spelling rules in English language. Or rather
the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those
rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read
and write.

For example, the concept of "spelling competitions" in elementary
schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English
schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell
words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not
considered to be a skill worth competing over.

But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent
spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D

And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the
proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-)

Best, :-)
Marko

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread David G . Miller

Joe Zeff  zeff.us> writes:

> 
> On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote:
> > I'd think it's the coolness thing.
> 
> What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?
I just go with these are the same people who aren't intelligent enough to
operate a baseball cap so they end up wearing it backwards.

(Not original.  Don't recall who the comedian was that used this in a 
monologue).

Cheers,
Dave



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 01/31/2013 12:20 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:

To answerlook at society: Sarah Palin.Mit Romney...Lance
ArmstrongKanye West.the Kardashians!LoL! Are they not the
very pinnacle...nay the epitome of "Cool"?...


As far as Sarah Palin goes, my impression was that people liked her 
because she wasn't ashamed of her opinions and she never pretended to be 
anything except what she was.  Calling Mit Romney an ignoramus only 
shows that you didn't like his political opinions and think that that 
makes it OK to call him names.  That tells me more about you than of him 
but I'm going to drop the subject RIGHT NOW because I don't consider it 
OK to do that and I prefer to live up to my principles.


No, I don't consider anybody on that list "the epitome of cool," because 
I remember when there were people like Kookie, who really were cool.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Paul Allen Newell


On 1/31/2013 1:07 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:



My copy of this is back in the mid-90s:

   Vy  Knot?


Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the
European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways
of improving efficiency in communications between Government
departments.

European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is
unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough,
through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme
of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of
course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by
participating nations.

In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's'
instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities
would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced
by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this
klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters
kould be made with one less letter.

There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was
announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'.
This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty persent shorter in print.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be
expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are
possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double leters
whish have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al
agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful.
Therefor we kould drop them and kontinu to read and writ as though
nothing had hapend.

By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would
be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'.  Perhaps zen ze
funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a
'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from vords
kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer
kombinations of leters.  Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud
eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no
mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud find it ezi tu understand ech
ozer. Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru.




Thank you ... I really enjoyed reading it (and was easily able to read 
the whole article ... while my Thunderbird spell-check starting choking 
on the third paragraph)

Paul

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 01/31/2013 03:38 PM, Craig White wrote:

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:55 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
want to know.

Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
off my chest. Feel free to ignore.


better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by
SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger
generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules.

Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA.


My copy of this is back in the mid-90s:

   Vy  Knot?


Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the
European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways
of improving efficiency in communications between Government
departments.

European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is
unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough,
through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme
of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of
course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by
participating nations.

In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's'
instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities
would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced
by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this
klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters
kould be made with one less letter.

There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was
announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'.
This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty persent shorter in print.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be
expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are
possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double leters
whish have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al
agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful.
Therefor we kould drop them and kontinu to read and writ as though
nothing had hapend.

By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would
be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'.  Perhaps zen ze
funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a
'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from vords
kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer
kombinations of leters.  Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud
eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no
mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud find it ezi tu understand ech
ozer. Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru.





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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?


On 01/31/2013 12:07 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:




I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher.

Oops.

Really, without 4th grade remedial speach and reading (back in '59) I
don't know where I would be today.


I'm not dyslexic, but my 4th grade teacher (in '59, IIRC) had a method 
of teaching spelling that ensured that if you ever fell behind you'd 
never catch up.  (By the end of the term, the best students were 
learning 35 new works a week; the worst, 5.)  I wasn't among the worst, 
but fell behind enough that the only thing that's "taught" me spelling 
is having the same words corrected over and over, and even then there 
are some I can't remember.  At least you and I use our spelling checkers 
and pay attention to them.  Those who can't spell and won't use them 
have no excuse IMAO.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Craig White

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:07 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
> > On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
> > Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> >
> >> Way way OT:
> >>
> >> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
> >> "i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when
> >> 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken,
> > Could be various reasons.
> > It's a multi-cultural list.
> > English as 2nd or 3rd language.
> > users may not have a western-style keyboard.
> > Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters)
> 
> I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher.

my oldest brother is probably the smartest person I know - and he was
dyslexic too. He is also a graduate chemical engineer, former union
organizer, economics professor (masters degree) and it's obvious that
while spelling and grammar checkers are a must for people with these
problems, the truth is that it's about effective communication and I
don't have much patience for those who want to insist on rules of
communication rather than just appreciate the communication.

Craig

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Craig White

On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:55 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Way way OT:
> 
> Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
> not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
> Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
> cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
> minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
> expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
> teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds
> want to know.
> 
> Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this
> off my chest. Feel free to ignore.

better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by
SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger
generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules.

Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA.

Craig


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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.


On 01/31/2013 02:16 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote:

I'd think it's the coolness thing.


What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?


To answerlook at society: Sarah Palin.Mit Romney...Lance 
ArmstrongKanye West.the Kardashians!LoL! Are they not the 
very pinnacle...nay the epitome of "Cool"?...



EGO II
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Matthew Miller

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 11:16:28AM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> >I'd think it's the coolness thing.
> What's cool about looking like an ignoramus?

Well, traditionally, actually, it's pretty high up there in the defining
factors.

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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 +
Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:


Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word
"i", not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when
1) their Shift key is clearly not broken,

Could be various reasons.
It's a multi-cultural list.
English as 2nd or 3rd language.
users may not have a western-style keyboard.
Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters)


I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher.

Oops.

Really, without 4th grade remedial speach and reading (back in '59) I 
don't know where I would be today.



Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)


I am that too.


Eyesight not corrected to 20/20.

or just don't give a fiddlers.



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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?

2013-01-31 Thread Ralf Corsepius


On 01/31/2013 04:55 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Way way OT:

Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word "i",
not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their
Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e.
cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny
minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they
expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English
teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort?


At least in Germany, often your last sentence applies.

In German, nouns are written with a capital letter at the beginning. 
This means, sentences usually contain many capital letters. When asking 
people about it, the usual answer is "too much effort".


 It's worse on phones and tablets, were switching between upper and 
lower case can mean some "finger acrobatics".


Ralf




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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?