Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/07/2012 08:54 AM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 14:14:27 +0200 Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: IPv6 is the future but as someone has already written in lot of cases it's not supported by routers and ISP's so having it enabled in your OS is pointless. I'll revers your argumentation - it doesn't add any value in such systems (yes, it also does no harm). I wouldn't say it does no harm. There is, for instance, this infamous bug which dragged on for months: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=459756 The basic problem being that comcast DNS servers were stoopid, and Ulrich Drepper was a butt headed moron who's reaction to widely broken stuff people have no choice but to use wasn't to be practical and provide a useful work around, but instead was to be obstinate and say it is up to clueless cable company morons to fix things. In fact a really great project for redhat to undertake might be to revisit every bug report that Ulrich Drepper was involved in and see if there is, in fact, a much more intelligent and practical way to resolve the issue now that Ulrich has thankfully moved on to screwing up investment bankers instead of screwing up glibc. Ouch!LoL! If words could kill this guy's be a mound of meat!...LoL! EGO II -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 15:01 -0500, Dave Ihnat wrote: > I said at _boot_, not after the system is up and running. And so did I... Some of these "new hardware found" notices *are*/*were* during bootup. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 2012/08/07 17:41, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 08/07/2012 05:22 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote:
You were lucky. I'm dead certain he didn't agree, but at least he shut up.
It's a lot nastier when they really want to argue.
If he'd tried arguing, I probably would have laughed at him. After all, I was
the one using the card and I could point to my own experience as proof that it
didn't work the way he said it would. What did he have on his side that might
have outweighed the facts?
Raw arrogance. The trick is to learn how to feed the developer a debug
dump. That tends to shut them up and get them thinking. (It works on me.)
{^_-}
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/07/2012 05:22 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote: You were lucky. I'm dead certain he didn't agree, but at least he shut up. It's a lot nastier when they really want to argue. If he'd tried arguing, I probably would have laughed at him. After all, I was the one using the card and I could point to my own experience as proof that it didn't work the way he said it would. What did he have on his side that might have outweighed the facts? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
Once, long ago--actually, on Tue, Aug 07, 2012 at 01:22:45PM -0700--Joe Zeff (j...@zeff.us) said: > On 08/07/2012 01:05 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote: > I still remember when configuring X included selecting by hand the > proper driver for your card, and how badly things would fsck > themselves up if you had the wrong one. OH, yeah. That really stopped me from pointing neocluebies to Linux at the time. > After reconfiguring with the proper driver, I sent a nice little > email to the maintainer, letting him know about the error. Uh-oh. > What I got back was an arrogant snotty-gram telling me that he's the > one who wrote the driver and he knows that it works with my card. I > replied, telling him ... > ...He shut up and stopped arguing. You were lucky. I'm dead certain he didn't agree, but at least he shut up. It's a lot nastier when they really want to argue. > The point of this, if there is one, is that things are much better > now than they were back in the Second Millennium, and nobody in > their right mind would want to go back. I'm from Waaay Back. I don't miss the Good Old Days one bit. Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
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On 08/07/2012 02:54 PM, jdow wrote:
> On 2012/08/07 12:09, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>>
>> On 08/07/2012 01:19 PM, jdow wrote:
>>> Removing PATA "because I'll never use it" leads to you discovering
>>> "never" is often not that far away. (PATA seems to still persist on
>>> certain classes of motherboard, I note. IMAO this is a good thing
>>> to keep old media readable. I also don't throw away old disks that
>>> still spin up and contain data. Well, OK, I'm a packrat. I don't
>>> throw ANY disks away. I have been known to convert their platters
>>> to ersatz wind chimes, though.)
>>>
>>> {^_-}
>> I have a couple of those. One only does PATA, and the second does
>> both PATA and SATA. Then I also have a SATA doc that will work a
>> eSATA or USB. I even have a couple of PATA to SATA and SATA to PATA
>> converters in my junk box for the few times I need them.
>>
>> You are not the only packrat when it comes to old disks. I still
>> have a couple of 8" floppies yet, as well as some paper tape. I
>> think I still have an 8" drive around here somewhere, and a
>> controller to hook it to. But I don't know if I still have the
>> optical paper tape reader. If I do, I am not sure I have anything to
>> interface it to. I do still have DOS program and game disks. I
>> should see if they run in dosemu...
>>
>> What I really should clean out is the old tape backups. I think I
>> still have a drive that will read (but not write) them. I am not
>> sure there is any usable information on them. Some are even DOS
>> backups, as well as some OLD Linux backups. I don't even remember
>> the backup program used to make them.
>>
>> My desktop does use a generic kernel. I could probably get some
>> performance if I compiled a kernel for the AMD Phenom processor, but
>> it isn't worth it. But that is not the answer for all my hardware.
>> Why not build in the drivers you need to boot the system if you have
>> to compile your own kernel anyway?
>>
>> Mikkel
>
> Boy, ah say, Boy! (Phoo - I do a LOUSY foghorn leghorn imitation.
{^_-})
>
> I still have some 8" ST-506 CPM disks around. I also have an 8" SASI
> disk. (All three may still work if heat has not killed them where they
> are currently stored.) I also have at least one 8" double sided
floppy,
> disks that MAY still work, and of course a controller in the old S-100
> machine. Um, I also have lots of Amiga disks - and Amigas themselves.
> Now THAT was a nice little OS for its day once it was tamed and
developers
> learned how to debug properly. It wrung a whole lot of performance
out of
> primitive CPUs by today's standards. THAT is SERIOUS packrateism.
(I bet
> my hypertrophied A-1000 still works, too.)
>
> {^_-}
I still have a working S-100 system with a Z-80 processor, and a 20M
hard drive in it. I do not know how I will replace it if it dies -
it is a MFM drive.
I played with a bunch of S-100 systems, including one that had a
Microplis (sp) floppy system and operating system. At one time I had
software to convert the Basic tokens in the saved BASIC file to
ASCII format, and software that let me read the MDOS disks under
CP/M. I also had a lot of S-100 cards that I figured out how to use
by dissembling the ROMs on the cards, or tracing circuits. I had
more time then money back then.
I never played with an Amigas. From what you have said, they sound
like fun. I probably played with most of the other "home" computers
of the era. I was the guy everybody called for help... Those were
the days...
Mikkel
- --
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taste good with Ketchup!
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/07/2012 02:55 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 08/07/2012 12:09 PM, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: >> You are not the only packrat when it comes to old disks. I still >> have a couple of 8" floppies yet, as well as some paper tape. I >> think I still have an 8" drive around here somewhere, and a >> controller to hook it to. > > If you do, and are thinking of getting rid of it, I may be able to put you in touch with somebody who has a use for it. A friend of mine is very involved with packet radio, and the software at the repeaters still runs on CP/M, because it works, and nobody wants to go to the effort of porting it. It may not be practical for him to take them, but there are packet radio groups all over the country, so he can probably point you at the nearest if needed. If I can find the drive, I would not mind donating it. But the controller is still needed for my Z-80 system. It also interfaces with a 5-1/4" and 3-1/2" floppy drives, and a 20M hard drive. It is sort of a CP/M 2.2 system with ccp replaced with Z???. (I can not remember the correct letters for the Z-80 code replacement.) On the other hand, I may still have a bunch of extra S-100 cards laying around. The CP/M system is all S-100 cards, but I used to have more then one S-100 system. While I am cleaning out stuff, I should probably find a home for my Sparc-Station II, and a bunch of SCSI drives. Mikkel - -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlAhl0YACgkQqbQrVW3JyMSkvgCcDPDDLJqe9E41HEZJrNDRRkD2 8+0AnRWQXoQLAbnC+MGltpsHME0OT4b2 =2ZNA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/07/2012 03:22 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > > I still remember when configuring X included selecting by hand the proper driver for your card, and how badly things would fsck themselves up if you had the wrong one. At the time, I was using a Virge S3 card, which needed its own driver, as well I knew. Then, an upgrade for X came out, and the README said that you didn't need the special driver for my card. *WRONG!* After reconfiguring with the proper driver, I sent a nice little email to the maintainer, letting him know about the error. > > What I got back was an arrogant snotty-gram telling me that he's the one who wrote the driver and he knows that it works with my card. I replied, telling him that he may have written the driver, but I'm the one trying to use it and No It Doesn't. He shut up and stopped arguing. > > The point of this, if there is one, is that things are much better now than they were back in the Second Millennium, and nobody in their right mind would want to go back. Doing it by hand, including compiling and installing your own kernel to learn how it's done is one thing. Having to do it because there's no other choice is another. (And no, this doesn't include gentoo because they've automated the process so that you don't have to do it all yourself.) Remember when you could smoke a monitor with the wrong settings in your X configuration? Not a problem with most (all?) current monitors. They just give a message that the signal is out of range. But with the old analog-only monitors you could really damage hardware with software settings! Mikkel - -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlAhlaIACgkQqbQrVW3JyMS89wCdFjqI6dQ2h/6igrO0p39jQN2+ Nb0An0qkQBl2J6cBpvvIvZxjCGpj+qVG =C91w -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/07/2012 01:05 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote: Once, long ago--actually, on Tue, Aug 07, 2012 at 11:35:35AM -0700--Joe Zeff (j...@zeff.us) said: >Then I booted into Linux. It Just Worked. Again, to be fair, initial X configuration has been less than a joyous experience on many Linux distros. It's gotten better--much better--but is still the point I sit forward in a new install. I still remember when configuring X included selecting by hand the proper driver for your card, and how badly things would fsck themselves up if you had the wrong one. At the time, I was using a Virge S3 card, which needed its own driver, as well I knew. Then, an upgrade for X came out, and the README said that you didn't need the special driver for my card. *WRONG!* After reconfiguring with the proper driver, I sent a nice little email to the maintainer, letting him know about the error. What I got back was an arrogant snotty-gram telling me that he's the one who wrote the driver and he knows that it works with my card. I replied, telling him that he may have written the driver, but I'm the one trying to use it and No It Doesn't. He shut up and stopped arguing. The point of this, if there is one, is that things are much better now than they were back in the Second Millennium, and nobody in their right mind would want to go back. Doing it by hand, including compiling and installing your own kernel to learn how it's done is one thing. Having to do it because there's no other choice is another. (And no, this doesn't include gentoo because they've automated the process so that you don't have to do it all yourself.) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
Once, long ago--actually, on Tue, Aug 07, 2012 at 11:35:35AM -0700--Joe Zeff (j...@zeff.us) said: > Then I booted into Linux. It Just Worked. Again, to be fair, initial X configuration has been less than a joyous experience on many Linux distros. It's gotten better--much better--but is still the point I sit forward in a new install. Remember, "All operating systems suck. Just some suck more than others." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d85p7JZXNy8 Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
Once, long ago--actually, on Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 03:45:07AM +0930--Tim (ignored_mail...@yahoo.com.au) said: > You've never had Windows notice that you've plugged in a new mouse, new > hard drive, graphics card, et cetera, and seen it grunt through the "new > hardware detected" routine, that often fails? I said at _boot_, not after the system is up and running. So it'll find hardware that wasn't installed after it's able to boot. At boot, it'll work if the new hardware works with the old driver, or with stock drivers (e.g., a new video card that will work with the generic VGA driver.) It'll bork mightily if the installed HAL.dll is wrong for the new motherboard. Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/07/2012 12:09 PM, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: You are not the only packrat when it comes to old disks. I still have a couple of 8" floppies yet, as well as some paper tape. I think I still have an 8" drive around here somewhere, and a controller to hook it to. If you do, and are thinking of getting rid of it, I may be able to put you in touch with somebody who has a use for it. A friend of mine is very involved with packet radio, and the software at the repeaters still runs on CP/M, because it works, and nobody wants to go to the effort of porting it. It may not be practical for him to take them, but there are packet radio groups all over the country, so he can probably point you at the nearest if needed. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 2012/08/07 12:09, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
On 08/07/2012 01:19 PM, jdow wrote:
On 2012/08/07 04:29, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 08/06/2012 11:29 PM, jdow wrote:
On 2012/08/06 19:17, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Disabling it because the system you are compiling the kernel for
will not support the hardware. No need for SATA, PCI, or cardbus
stuff on a system that only has PCMCIA slots for expansion. You do
not need the USB drivers because it does not have, USB
hardware, and
you can not find PCMCIA USB cards. (I have a cardbus USB card, but
that does not help.) But this is not something most people run
into.
Compiling a kernel for a laptop will let you eliminate a lot of
drivers because you only have limited hardware changes...
A server that is not going to get hardware changes.
...
Mikkel
Mikkel, I have done this once or twice in antediluvian days gone by.
Then I discovered a property of Windows. If your motherboard goes
bad and you can't replace it with an exact replacement the
system and
all other software installed on that disk are suddenly useless.
(Yes,
you can at least recover the files. But you cannot recover the
installs.)
It is far better to keep the OS flexible so that on boot it
adapts to
the system you are running. The better the OS as installed on
the disk
does this the easier the effort to get up and running becomes.
I may recompile the kernel these days; but, the intent of the
recompile
is to ADD features compiled out rather than the other way around.
{^_^}
The only problem with that argument is that if the hardware has
changed enough that you can not boot with your custom kernel, then
you will need a new initrd to boot with a generic kernel. So you
have to boot from some type of recovery media in any case.
It can actually be easier to fix with a custom kernel - boot from
recovery media, do a chroot, and install the latest generic kernel
RPM. Let the post install script build the new initrd.
Mikkel
That is why adding things is better than subtracting them. Adding, for
example, a seldom used filesystem can survive a transplant to a whole
new computer and still work, modulo connecting a disk that uses that
filesystem. Um, dongles that take PATA and convert it to USB are
REALLY
nice to keep around for this reason.
Removing PATA "because I'll never use it" leads to you discovering
"never" is often not that far away. (PATA seems to still persist on
certain classes of motherboard, I note. IMAO this is a good thing
to keep old media readable. I also don't throw away old disks that
still spin up and contain data. Well, OK, I'm a packrat. I don't
throw ANY disks away. I have been known to convert their platters
to ersatz wind chimes, though.)
{^_-}
I have a couple of those. One only does PATA, and the second does
both PATA and SATA. Then I also have a SATA doc that will work a
eSATA or USB. I even have a couple of PATA to SATA and SATA to PATA
converters in my junk box for the few times I need them.
You are not the only packrat when it comes to old disks. I still
have a couple of 8" floppies yet, as well as some paper tape. I
think I still have an 8" drive around here somewhere, and a
controller to hook it to. But I don't know if I still have the
optical paper tape reader. If I do, I am not sure I have anything to
interface it to. I do still have DOS program and game disks. I
should see if they run in dosemu...
What I really should clean out is the old tape backups. I think I
still have a drive that will read (but not write) them. I am not
sure there is any usable information on them. Some are even DOS
backups, as well as some OLD Linux backups. I don't even remember
the backup program used to make them.
My desktop does use a generic kernel. I could probably get some
performance if I compiled a kernel for the AMD Phenom processor, but
it isn't worth it. But that is not the answer for all my hardware.
Why not build in the drivers you need to boot the system if you have
to compile your own kernel anyway?
Mikkel
Boy, ah say, Boy! (Phoo - I do a LOUSY foghorn leghorn imitation. {^_-})
I still have some 8" ST-506 CPM disks around. I also have an 8" SASI
disk. (All three may still work if heat has not killed them where they
are currently stored.) I also have at least one 8" double sided floppy,
disks that MAY still work, and of course a controller in the old S-100
machine. Um, I also have lots of Amiga disks - and Amigas themselves.
Now THAT was a nice little OS for its day once it was tamed and developers
learned how to debug properly. It wrung a whole lot of performance out of
primitive CPUs by today's standards. THAT is SERIOUS packrateism. (I bet
my hypertrophied A-1000 still works, too.)
{^_-}
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/07/2012 11:23 AM, jdow wrote: Repeating precisely the same actions and expecting different results is foolish, and getting different results is frightening. AIUI, constantly repeating the same actions and expecting different results is part of the original cargo cults, but in that case, the participants think that if they get all of the details exactly right, it will work, so it's questionable if they're doing the same thing over and over or not. I've taken to referring to the practice as the Bullwinkle Syndrome: "This time, for SURE!" -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/07/2012 01:19 PM, jdow wrote:
> On 2012/08/07 04:29, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 08/06/2012 11:29 PM, jdow wrote:
>>> On 2012/08/06 19:17, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Disabling it because the system you are compiling the kernel for
will not support the hardware. No need for SATA, PCI, or cardbus
stuff on a system that only has PCMCIA slots for expansion. You do
not need the USB drivers because it does not have, USB
hardware, and
you can not find PCMCIA USB cards. (I have a cardbus USB card, but
that does not help.) But this is not something most people run
into.
Compiling a kernel for a laptop will let you eliminate a lot of
drivers because you only have limited hardware changes...
A server that is not going to get hardware changes.
...
Mikkel
>>>
>>> Mikkel, I have done this once or twice in antediluvian days gone by.
>>> Then I discovered a property of Windows. If your motherboard goes
>>> bad and you can't replace it with an exact replacement the
system and
>>> all other software installed on that disk are suddenly useless.
(Yes,
>>> you can at least recover the files. But you cannot recover the
>> installs.)
>>>
>>> It is far better to keep the OS flexible so that on boot it
adapts to
>>> the system you are running. The better the OS as installed on
the disk
>>> does this the easier the effort to get up and running becomes.
>>>
>>> I may recompile the kernel these days; but, the intent of the
>> recompile
>>> is to ADD features compiled out rather than the other way around.
>>>
>>> {^_^}
>>
>> The only problem with that argument is that if the hardware has
>> changed enough that you can not boot with your custom kernel, then
>> you will need a new initrd to boot with a generic kernel. So you
>> have to boot from some type of recovery media in any case.
>>
>> It can actually be easier to fix with a custom kernel - boot from
>> recovery media, do a chroot, and install the latest generic kernel
>> RPM. Let the post install script build the new initrd.
>>
>> Mikkel
>
> That is why adding things is better than subtracting them. Adding, for
> example, a seldom used filesystem can survive a transplant to a whole
> new computer and still work, modulo connecting a disk that uses that
> filesystem. Um, dongles that take PATA and convert it to USB are
REALLY
> nice to keep around for this reason.
>
> Removing PATA "because I'll never use it" leads to you discovering
> "never" is often not that far away. (PATA seems to still persist on
> certain classes of motherboard, I note. IMAO this is a good thing
> to keep old media readable. I also don't throw away old disks that
> still spin up and contain data. Well, OK, I'm a packrat. I don't
> throw ANY disks away. I have been known to convert their platters
> to ersatz wind chimes, though.)
>
> {^_-}
I have a couple of those. One only does PATA, and the second does
both PATA and SATA. Then I also have a SATA doc that will work a
eSATA or USB. I even have a couple of PATA to SATA and SATA to PATA
converters in my junk box for the few times I need them.
You are not the only packrat when it comes to old disks. I still
have a couple of 8" floppies yet, as well as some paper tape. I
think I still have an 8" drive around here somewhere, and a
controller to hook it to. But I don't know if I still have the
optical paper tape reader. If I do, I am not sure I have anything to
interface it to. I do still have DOS program and game disks. I
should see if they run in dosemu...
What I really should clean out is the old tape backups. I think I
still have a drive that will read (but not write) them. I am not
sure there is any usable information on them. Some are even DOS
backups, as well as some OLD Linux backups. I don't even remember
the backup program used to make them.
My desktop does use a generic kernel. I could probably get some
performance if I compiled a kernel for the AMD Phenom processor, but
it isn't worth it. But that is not the answer for all my hardware.
Why not build in the drivers you need to boot the system if you have
to compile your own kernel anyway?
Mikkel
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 2012/08/07 11:35, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 08/07/2012 11:15 AM, Tim wrote:
You've never had Windows notice that you've plugged in a new mouse, new
hard drive, graphics card, et cetera, and seen it grunt through the "new
hardware detected" routine, that often fails?
Back when I was still dual-booting this box, I upgraded the video card. First I
booted into Win98SE. It detected the new card and insisted on dropping down to
a minimal 640X480 screen while I installed the new drivers and rebooted. Then,
I had to tell it to go back to the proper screen settings, after which I had to
put almost every single icon back where it belonged because Windows had moved
them and only remembered the new locations.
Then I booted into Linux. It Just Worked.
7 is somewhat better in that regard. It's not perfect. It is better. And I
notice that on 7 nVidia drivers install without a reboot which is quite
astonishing and gratifying. It's almost Linux-like in that regard.
"If you are not cussing at your OS it's not working the way it was intended
to work." {O,o}
{^_^}
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/07/2012 11:15 AM, Tim wrote: You've never had Windows notice that you've plugged in a new mouse, new hard drive, graphics card, et cetera, and seen it grunt through the "new hardware detected" routine, that often fails? Back when I was still dual-booting this box, I upgraded the video card. First I booted into Win98SE. It detected the new card and insisted on dropping down to a minimal 640X480 screen while I installed the new drivers and rebooted. Then, I had to tell it to go back to the proper screen settings, after which I had to put almost every single icon back where it belonged because Windows had moved them and only remembered the new locations. Then I booted into Linux. It Just Worked. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 2012/08/07 05:22, Dave Ihnat wrote:
Once, long ago--actually, on Mon, Aug 06, 2012 at 09:29:49PM -0700--jdow
(j...@earthlink.net) said:
Then I discovered a property of Windows. If your motherboard goes
bad and you can't replace it with an exact replacement the system and
all other software installed on that disk are suddenly useless. (Yes,
you can at least recover the files. But you cannot recover the installs.)
Ah...just a parenthetical aside. This is quite untrue. I've replaced
failed motherboards on numerous Windows installations of various versions.
You usually have to do a recovery reinstallation, but it does work, and
your installed programs, data, etc. are all preserved.
I'm not defending Windows--this is more along the lines of "Know thine
enemy". If you're trying to promote Linux, but express actual falsehoods
about Windows, people will discount all your views.
Cheers,
--
Dave Ihnat
dih...@dminet.com
We've had different experiences. (And I am experienced enough that I have
recovered a Windows 2000 install that had block zero on the disk messed
up. THAT requires patience, some knowledge of NTFS, and lots of googling.)
My bad new motherboard experience was with XP. And the new motherboard
would not get past booting because it needed new drivers. Recovery
install techniques plunged it back to XP with no service packs. That
blew up a driver that was installed. And at that point I figured I had
wasted enough time, stuck the disk on a Linux system, sucked off all the
good data, and rebuilt the system with an XP SP3 image.
I like the forgiving nature of Linux. I make money on Windows and
generally find it more useful for my desires and needs. That's
my crazed mileage. Yours may vary a whole lot. (Joanne's law is "pick
the application you simply must have. Then pick the OS that will run
that application. Then pick the hardware that will run the combination."
That avoids the "Procrustean computer" situation.)
{^_-}
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 2012/08/07 04:40, Tom Horsley wrote:
So here's one that always leaves me wondering: The #1 original
admin advice that *ought* to be Cargo Cult except for the
fact that it actually works quite often: "reinstall the
program".
It is recommended far more often on Windows than on Linux,
but I see folks say it on Linux as well, and the totally
absurd thing is that it often works.
Why should it work? If a computer doesn't work well enough
to do a simple job like copy a few files off some install
media reliably, why on earth would you trust it to run
the (probably) much more complicated program you just
installed? In fact, if copying a few files onto the system
fails so often that reinstall is a standard practice, why
does anything ever work at all? It is a mystery to me :-).
Well, with Vista and 7 at least reinstall "as administrator"
is usually very good advice. This is more automatic using
tools like yum since that must be run as root. But installing
side packages may "appear" to work but the program won't run
correctly if not done as root (via sudo or whatever.) Repeating
precisely the same actions and expecting different results is
foolish, and getting different results is frightening.
{^_^}
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 2012/08/07 04:29, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/06/2012 11:29 PM, jdow wrote:
On 2012/08/06 19:17, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Disabling it because the system you are compiling the kernel for
will not support the hardware. No need for SATA, PCI, or cardbus
stuff on a system that only has PCMCIA slots for expansion. You do
not need the USB drivers because it does not have, USB hardware, and
you can not find PCMCIA USB cards. (I have a cardbus USB card, but
that does not help.) But this is not something most people run into.
Compiling a kernel for a laptop will let you eliminate a lot of
drivers because you only have limited hardware changes...
A server that is not going to get hardware changes.
...
Mikkel
Mikkel, I have done this once or twice in antediluvian days gone by.
Then I discovered a property of Windows. If your motherboard goes
bad and you can't replace it with an exact replacement the system and
all other software installed on that disk are suddenly useless. (Yes,
you can at least recover the files. But you cannot recover the
installs.)
It is far better to keep the OS flexible so that on boot it adapts to
the system you are running. The better the OS as installed on the disk
does this the easier the effort to get up and running becomes.
I may recompile the kernel these days; but, the intent of the
recompile
is to ADD features compiled out rather than the other way around.
{^_^}
The only problem with that argument is that if the hardware has
changed enough that you can not boot with your custom kernel, then
you will need a new initrd to boot with a generic kernel. So you
have to boot from some type of recovery media in any case.
It can actually be easier to fix with a custom kernel - boot from
recovery media, do a chroot, and install the latest generic kernel
RPM. Let the post install script build the new initrd.
Mikkel
That is why adding things is better than subtracting them. Adding, for
example, a seldom used filesystem can survive a transplant to a whole
new computer and still work, modulo connecting a disk that uses that
filesystem. Um, dongles that take PATA and convert it to USB are REALLY
nice to keep around for this reason.
Removing PATA "because I'll never use it" leads to you discovering
"never" is often not that far away. (PATA seems to still persist on
certain classes of motherboard, I note. IMAO this is a good thing
to keep old media readable. I also don't throw away old disks that
still spin up and contain data. Well, OK, I'm a packrat. I don't
throw ANY disks away. I have been known to convert their platters
to ersatz wind chimes, though.)
{^_-}
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 10:35 -0500, Dave Ihnat wrote: > A generic Linux installation seems better at detecting hardware > changes "on the fly". Yes, noticing it, and correctly getting it to work, without you scrabbling around for driver discs, or files off the net. > Windows doesn't really check for major component changes > when booting You've never had Windows notice that you've plugged in a new mouse, new hard drive, graphics card, et cetera, and seen it grunt through the "new hardware detected" routine, that often fails? Granted I stopped battling with it the Vista stage, but I'd always seen it do that sort of thing up to then (while booting before logon, and post logon). It has always been the most painful OS I'd ever seen, and disposing of it has been the most pleasant computer experience I've had in recent years. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 07:54 -0400, John Aldrich wrote: > With respect to SELinux... I really have no idea whether it's > currently enabled, enabled in "permissive" mode or disabled (I *think* > it may be in "permissive" mode, but I wouldn't swear to it.) However, > I got to thinking... it needs to be set up more like an antivirus > program, i.e. smart enough to recognize what is there and act > accordingly. Generally speaking, it is. Warnings are either faults with the rules, or the applications doing things that they shouldn't, which do get amended. Or warnings that you're doing something is wrong on your computer, and that needs fixing (e.g. you're trying to access files where you shouldn't - such as webserving from non-standard locations). I can't say that I've ever had a SELinux alert while trying to do something normal, such as read a file or write one, in my homespace. I have seen alerts such as applications wanting carte blanche do whatever they feel like on the file system, when that's clearly a bad idea. So, corrections get made to those programs to not request things they shouldn't do. Or modifications to rules to allow some things a bit more access than default, but not carte blanche. Usually stupid errors with commonly used applications get discovered and fixed quite quickly. It's when users do something less common that /they/ will probably have to be the one to make a bug report. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 16:44 +0200, Roberto Ragusa wrote: > Reinstalling a program on Linux is almost always useless. > If a "rpm -V" comes out clean, you will not get very far > with a reinstall. > > On Windows it usually works because of poor handling of > dependencies and DLL-hell (reinstalling forces your pieces > in place again) and because installation and configuration > are always blended together [reinstall => lose (damaged) settings]. My impression of ye olde windows self destructive tendencies suggested the following: Windows would open system/program files in a write mode, that it should have just opened in read mode. Upon a crash, said file could often be destroyed. Why else would some driver file for your graphics card, sound card, or whatever else, disappear in a crash? The file should have been loaded, long ago, and the file on the disc ignored until the next boot. Post crash, Windows' automatic file system checking seemed to take the action of simply deleting files it couldn't read, no attempt at recovery, nor informing the user of what it's done. Files would mysteriously disappear, and you'd only find out when you/it couldn't load them later on. No other explanations seem to fit why things disappeared, and what happened next. Re-installing on Linux rarely seems to be the answer, since mysteriously disappearing files are rarely the problem, and a reinstall is just going to put the same files onto the drive as you've already got (configuration customisation notwithstanding). You're quite unlikely to accidentally remove a system/program file, because your own files are in a completely different location, and you don't have write/delete permissions for the system/program files (unless you're *STUPID* enough to run as root). If you have failing hardware that caused files to be fouled up (RAM, motherboard, dying hard drive, et cetera), faults are going to recur, and reinstalling is never going to fix that problem. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/07/2012 10:28 AM, John Aldrich wrote: > Quoting Dave Ihnat : > >> Once, long ago--actually, on Mon, Aug 06, 2012 at 09:29:49PM -0700--jdow (j...@earthlink.net) said: >>> Then I discovered a property of Windows. If your motherboard goes >>> bad and you can't replace it with an exact replacement the system and >>> all other software installed on that disk are suddenly useless. (Yes, >>> you can at least recover the files. But you cannot recover the installs.) >> >> Ah...just a parenthetical aside. This is quite untrue. I've replaced >> failed motherboards on numerous Windows installations of various versions. >> You usually have to do a recovery reinstallation, but it does work, and >> your installed programs, data, etc. are all preserved. >> >> I'm not defending Windows--this is more along the lines of "Know thine >> enemy". If you're trying to promote Linux, but express actual falsehoods >> about Windows, people will discount all your views. >> > Yes...but if your Linux box is set up with a generic, modular kernel, chances are you won't have to re-install Linux, where, as you point out, with Windows, you'll have to do a "repair" install, at a minimum. At worst, you'll have to try and re-install on another disk and re-install all your apps and copy your data over. So, you are correct in that many cases, on Windows you can do a "repair install" but may end up having to start over from near scratch. Linux, properly set up, doesn't have that issue. :D You do not have to reinstall, but depending on the hardware changes, you have have to do the Linux equivalent of a rescue install. It works as long as you are using the same modules to mount the root file system. But if you need different drivers because of the hardware change, you have to do the build a new initrd before you can boot. This is because the modules used to mount the root file system are in the initrd file. The kernel has the drivers needed to mount the initrd compiled in. But it normally does not have the drivers for the root file system compiled in, unless it is a custom kernel. In some ways, it can actually be easier to make the change with a custom kernel - you do a rescue boot, chroot to the "real" installation, and install the kernel RPM. This has the advantage of automatically building the needed initrd file. Then you can do a normal boot. I have only had to do this a couple of times, and it was because of drastic hardware changes. But when I make that kind of hardware change, I usually do a new install and restore the user data, and migrate config files. Mikkel - -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlAhT2IACgkQqbQrVW3JyMQHcwCfXrmTDrmzb2HkEad9v+BOenDh GDwAn1aDx43N4B9dzMxG8WeJQZSfAT1Q =ai9V -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
Once, long ago--actually, on Tue, Aug 07, 2012 at 11:28:09AM -0400--John Aldrich (jmaldr...@yahoo.com) said: > Yes...but if your Linux box is set up with a generic, modular > kernel, chances are you won't have to re-install Linux, where, as > you point out, with Windows, you'll have to do a "repair" install, > at a minimum. No argument; just pointing out that the vast majority of the time, changing even a MoBo won't lose data and won't require reinstallation of any applications. > At worst, you'll have to try and re-install on another disk and > re-install all your apps and copy your data over. But that is the worst case--and it virtually never happens from changing a major component such as a MoBo or disk controller, as you'd posited, as long as the system was otherwise healthy. > Linux, properly set up, doesn't have that issue. :D A generic Linux installation seems better at detecting hardware changes "on the fly". Windows doesn't really check for major component changes when booting (although their licensing cr*p may check if the system successfully boots--it certainly does after a repair install). The repair reinstallation is, generally, only necessary to force it to select a new HAL (or maybe reconfigure the current one--haven't really cared to dig that deeply into it.) Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
Quoting Dave Ihnat : Once, long ago--actually, on Mon, Aug 06, 2012 at 09:29:49PM -0700--jdow (j...@earthlink.net) said: Then I discovered a property of Windows. If your motherboard goes bad and you can't replace it with an exact replacement the system and all other software installed on that disk are suddenly useless. (Yes, you can at least recover the files. But you cannot recover the installs.) Ah...just a parenthetical aside. This is quite untrue. I've replaced failed motherboards on numerous Windows installations of various versions. You usually have to do a recovery reinstallation, but it does work, and your installed programs, data, etc. are all preserved. I'm not defending Windows--this is more along the lines of "Know thine enemy". If you're trying to promote Linux, but express actual falsehoods about Windows, people will discount all your views. Yes...but if your Linux box is set up with a generic, modular kernel, chances are you won't have to re-install Linux, where, as you point out, with Windows, you'll have to do a "repair" install, at a minimum. At worst, you'll have to try and re-install on another disk and re-install all your apps and copy your data over. So, you are correct in that many cases, on Windows you can do a "repair install" but may end up having to start over from near scratch. Linux, properly set up, doesn't have that issue. :D -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/07/2012 01:40 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: > So here's one that always leaves me wondering: The #1 original > admin advice that *ought* to be Cargo Cult except for the > fact that it actually works quite often: "reinstall the > program". > > It is recommended far more often on Windows than on Linux, > but I see folks say it on Linux as well, and the totally > absurd thing is that it often works. > > Why should it work? If a computer doesn't work well enough > to do a simple job like copy a few files off some install > media reliably, why on earth would you trust it to run > the (probably) much more complicated program you just > installed? In fact, if copying a few files onto the system > fails so often that reinstall is a standard practice, why > does anything ever work at all? It is a mystery to me :-). Reinstalling a program on Linux is almost always useless. If a "rpm -V" comes out clean, you will not get very far with a reinstall. On Windows it usually works because of poor handling of dependencies and DLL-hell (reinstalling forces your pieces in place again) and because installation and configuration are always blended together [reinstall => lose (damaged) settings]. On Linux, sometimes it works, simply because of side effects: SElinux labeling or post-install scripts which are repairing something. A much more useful thing to do is to delete the settings of the program in your home dir. Better yet, just rename them. If they are too complicated, create a new user and test again; if it works, now start copying your setting to this account and retest until it breaks, so you know where the real problem is. My contribution to the cargo cult list: "do not interfere with my attempts to break everything": - "yum -y" - "rpm --force" - "rpm -e --force" "let's put things which will break at next update (or sooner)": - oracle JVM rpm or tar - nvidia/fglrx driver - vmware modules - interfering stuff compiled from source (php, mysql, httpd, ...) - manual symlinks here and there -- Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 14:14:27 +0200 Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: > IPv6 is the future but as someone has already written in lot of cases > it's not supported by routers and ISP's so having it enabled in your OS > is pointless. I'll revers your argumentation - it doesn't add any value > in such systems (yes, it also does no harm). I wouldn't say it does no harm. There is, for instance, this infamous bug which dragged on for months: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=459756 The basic problem being that comcast DNS servers were stoopid, and Ulrich Drepper was a butt headed moron who's reaction to widely broken stuff people have no choice but to use wasn't to be practical and provide a useful work around, but instead was to be obstinate and say it is up to clueless cable company morons to fix things. In fact a really great project for redhat to undertake might be to revisit every bug report that Ulrich Drepper was involved in and see if there is, in fact, a much more intelligent and practical way to resolve the issue now that Ulrich has thankfully moved on to screwing up investment bankers instead of screwing up glibc. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
Once, long ago--actually, on Mon, Aug 06, 2012 at 09:29:49PM -0700--jdow (j...@earthlink.net) said: > Then I discovered a property of Windows. If your motherboard goes > bad and you can't replace it with an exact replacement the system and > all other software installed on that disk are suddenly useless. (Yes, > you can at least recover the files. But you cannot recover the installs.) Ah...just a parenthetical aside. This is quite untrue. I've replaced failed motherboards on numerous Windows installations of various versions. You usually have to do a recovery reinstallation, but it does work, and your installed programs, data, etc. are all preserved. I'm not defending Windows--this is more along the lines of "Know thine enemy". If you're trying to promote Linux, but express actual falsehoods about Windows, people will discount all your views. Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 06.08.2012 22:38, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 08/06/2012 01:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: >> On 06.08.2012 15:52, Michael Cronenworth wrote: >>> Tim wrote: Just look at the feature list on the documentation, or websites, and the idiot admins will target them first. And, if you have a desktop that still has normal menus, look through the system admin items for more ideas. >>> I can think of one item you missed from your list: >>> >>> Disable IPv6 (disabling it cures cancer!) >> >> OK, but what if I don't need it? You can say that it's harmless etc. But >> why the hell then, people recompile the kernel to disable other unused >> modules/features? Are they cargo cult sysadmins? >> >> Maybe it's not so bad idea to disable all unused pieces of software in >> your system? >> > > IMAO, it all depends on why you're disabling it. Are you doing it > because you don't use it and don't ever expect to (Short-sighted, if > you ask me, but it's your box, not mine.) or are you disabling it to > avoid problems that it either doesn't cause or, at least, hasn't > caused in a long time? Personally, I'm not disabling anything because I'm to lazy (I prefer to install as minimal system as possible and then install what's needed) but I understand people that does disable things. IPv6 is the future but as someone has already written in lot of cases it's not supported by routers and ISP's so having it enabled in your OS is pointless. I'll revers your argumentation - it doesn't add any value in such systems (yes, it also does no harm). I can easily say that in my home network I'll not use IPv6 in next 5 years, in my work maybe 2 years. Mateusz Marzantowicz -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
With respect to SELinux... I really have no idea whether it's currently enabled, enabled in "permissive" mode or disabled (I *think* it may be in "permissive" mode, but I wouldn't swear to it.) However, I got to thinking... it needs to be set up more like an antivirus program, i.e. smart enough to recognize what is there and act accordingly. What I do NOT want to see is something like a firewall in "paranoid" mode where it alerts on every little thing. I know early on SELinux was acting like a firewall in "paranoid" mode, which got more than a little annoying. I, for one, don't want to be constantly responding to alerts on standard apps trying to behave normally. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
So here's one that always leaves me wondering: The #1 original admin advice that *ought* to be Cargo Cult except for the fact that it actually works quite often: "reinstall the program". It is recommended far more often on Windows than on Linux, but I see folks say it on Linux as well, and the totally absurd thing is that it often works. Why should it work? If a computer doesn't work well enough to do a simple job like copy a few files off some install media reliably, why on earth would you trust it to run the (probably) much more complicated program you just installed? In fact, if copying a few files onto the system fails so often that reinstall is a standard practice, why does anything ever work at all? It is a mystery to me :-). -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/06/2012 11:29 PM, jdow wrote:
> On 2012/08/06 19:17, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>>
>> Disabling it because the system you are compiling the kernel for
>> will not support the hardware. No need for SATA, PCI, or cardbus
>> stuff on a system that only has PCMCIA slots for expansion. You do
>> not need the USB drivers because it does not have, USB hardware, and
>> you can not find PCMCIA USB cards. (I have a cardbus USB card, but
>> that does not help.) But this is not something most people run into.
>>
>> Compiling a kernel for a laptop will let you eliminate a lot of
>> drivers because you only have limited hardware changes...
>>
>> A server that is not going to get hardware changes.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Mikkel
>
> Mikkel, I have done this once or twice in antediluvian days gone by.
> Then I discovered a property of Windows. If your motherboard goes
> bad and you can't replace it with an exact replacement the system and
> all other software installed on that disk are suddenly useless. (Yes,
> you can at least recover the files. But you cannot recover the
installs.)
>
> It is far better to keep the OS flexible so that on boot it adapts to
> the system you are running. The better the OS as installed on the disk
> does this the easier the effort to get up and running becomes.
>
> I may recompile the kernel these days; but, the intent of the
recompile
> is to ADD features compiled out rather than the other way around.
>
> {^_^}
The only problem with that argument is that if the hardware has
changed enough that you can not boot with your custom kernel, then
you will need a new initrd to boot with a generic kernel. So you
have to boot from some type of recovery media in any case.
It can actually be easier to fix with a custom kernel - boot from
recovery media, do a chroot, and install the latest generic kernel
RPM. Let the post install script build the new initrd.
Mikkel
- --
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 6 August 2012 21:53, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 08/06/2012 01:40 PM, Ian Malone wrote: >> >> Well, the thing is that SELinux often has effects that aren't >> particularly obvious. After upgrading to F15 I found I couldn't log in >> without disabling SELinux. At that point you can either try and fix >> the problem or ignore it and carry on with SELinux disabled forever, >> in doing the latter you haven't understood what's wrong or what other >> problems might be involved. > > > Did you try putting it in permissive mode to see if you got any alerts? > Yes, I know that this is drifting off-topic, but it's also discussing the > difference between what I'm objecting to and doing something that might > eventually let you fix what's wrong. Okay, I was mis-remembering: http://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-list/2009-July/msg02291.html Permissive mode did work. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 15:47 -0500, Steven Stern wrote: > For true Cargo Cult, emulate your internet provider's technical > support. "Please reboot your computer and ... Ah, yes, I forgot that one (reboot every time you change a minor setting). -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 2012/08/06 19:17, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/06/2012 03:38 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 08/06/2012 01:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote:
On 06.08.2012 15:52, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
Tim wrote:
Just look at the feature list on the documentation, or
websites, and the
idiot admins will target them first. And, if you have a desktop
that
still has normal menus, look through the system admin items for
more
ideas.
I can think of one item you missed from your list:
Disable IPv6 (disabling it cures cancer!)
OK, but what if I don't need it? You can say that it's harmless
etc. But
why the hell then, people recompile the kernel to disable other
unused
modules/features? Are they cargo cult sysadmins?
Maybe it's not so bad idea to disable all unused pieces of
software in
your system?
IMAO, it all depends on why you're disabling it. Are you doing it
because you don't use it and don't ever expect to (Short-sighted, if
you ask me, but it's your box, not mine.) or are you disabling it to
avoid problems that it either doesn't cause or, at least, hasn't
caused in a long time?
Disabling it because the system you are compiling the kernel for
will not support the hardware. No need for SATA, PCI, or cardbus
stuff on a system that only has PCMCIA slots for expansion. You do
not need the USB drivers because it does not have, USB hardware, and
you can not find PCMCIA USB cards. (I have a cardbus USB card, but
that does not help.) But this is not something most people run into.
Compiling a kernel for a laptop will let you eliminate a lot of
drivers because you only have limited hardware changes...
A server that is not going to get hardware changes.
...
Mikkel
Mikkel, I have done this once or twice in antediluvian days gone by.
Then I discovered a property of Windows. If your motherboard goes
bad and you can't replace it with an exact replacement the system and
all other software installed on that disk are suddenly useless. (Yes,
you can at least recover the files. But you cannot recover the installs.)
It is far better to keep the OS flexible so that on boot it adapts to
the system you are running. The better the OS as installed on the disk
does this the easier the effort to get up and running becomes.
I may recompile the kernel these days; but, the intent of the recompile
is to ADD features compiled out rather than the other way around.
{^_^}
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 13:06 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote: > It looks like I may have created a new use of Cargo Cult, based on > Cargo Cult Programming. Like a lot of words, the interpretation depends on the person. Some see "cargo cult" as some sort of ritual that must be done for some reason. Other's see it as things that people habitually do without any good reason, in a monkey see, monkey do, fashion. By the time the clueless have seen umpteen /I install this, disable that, configure this/ posts, they just blindly do the same thing, thinking that it's necessary. That, or they've habitually done the same things over prior releases, and keep on doing them unthinkingly. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
Mikkel L. Ellertson: >> Compiling a kernel for a laptop will let you eliminate a lot of >> drivers because you only have limited hardware changes... Michael Cronenworth: > This might have made since in 1999 when Linux was first getting started > and every byte mattered. However, today, with terabyte storage and 8GB > of RAM for less than $100 USD (each) this makes no sense at all. You're > just wasting your time. Providing that you're one of those people with money to burn, to keep replacing completely working PCs every year or two, to keep pace with ever bloating systems. > Not having modules or compiling in modules provides zero performance > benefit. Just FYI. Though, perhaps removing a module that might have a problem, might just make a system more stable. The more that's in there, the more likely that something will go awry. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 08:52 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: > I can think of one item you missed from your list: > > Disable IPv6 (disabling it cures cancer!) Actually, I don't have a problem with disabling that. Depending on your reasons, though... In my case, short of replacing my modem/router with something else, I can't use IPv6 over the net (I still haven't seen anything in the shops stating that it supports IPv6). Thanks to that, using an internal IPv4 to IPv6 proxy is useless, I'd need an external proxy (haven't gone looking for one of them, and my ISP has never sent me any newsletters about IPv6 on their network, so if they've implemented anything, we don't know about it). And I still don't know of any websites that I'm interested in that are IPv6-only accessible. And as far as internal networking is concerned, I don't need it. I already have working IPv4, and it's got more than sufficient addresses for my needs. And a few bits of my internal equipment are IPv4-only, but otherwise working fine, and I don't want to waste money replacing them. So, it's of theoretical interest, only, at this stage. Even though I've seen announcements that IPv4 addresses have already run out. I've yet to see stories of it actually being a problem. It'll happen eventually, but so far it's only been that "the sky is falling." Not to mention that it'll be yet another networking thing that I'll have to learn about. I don't envy the support staff at ISPs in helping clueless computer users about getting IPv6 working. And I wonder just how badly Windows is going to manage it, considering that they've always had a propensity to share out resources to the entire network, not just the LAN, and using IPv6 in the way that it's intended won't have a NAT between you and the internet, breaking networking in ways that tend to protect the clueless. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/06/2012 10:05 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote: > On 08/06/2012 09:17 PM, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: >> Compiling a kernel for a laptop will let you eliminate a lot of >> drivers because you only have limited hardware changes... > > This might have made since in 1999 when Linux was first getting started and every byte mattered. However, today, with terabyte storage and 8GB of RAM for less than $100 USD (each) this makes no sense at all. You're just wasting your time. Not having modules or compiling in modules provides zero performance benefit. Just FYI. > > P.S. Perfect item to add to Tim's list. :) It depends on the laptop. You are assuming that it is for a modern laptop. It isn't. It is being used as a smart X terminal. I do not do it for my desktop, or the laptop I take with me. Just FYI - there is a slight improvement gained by not enabling modules. It is not worth the difference with a modern processor. There is a bigger performance difference when compiling for the processor when you are using an older processor. The difference between a 586 and a K5 matters. Besides, it is hard to find a pre-compiled kernel for them. (OK - so I have some old hardware I need to keep running. I know someone that has to keep a DOS system running... ) At least it is better then the first system I ran Linux on - try running it on a 386DX with 4M of RAM and no CD-ROM drive. Mikkel - -- Yes, I'm a dirty old man ... and I'll be one until I'm a DEAD old man! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlAgkx4ACgkQqbQrVW3JyMTuSgCdFw+C/MeHWzqGvwRMVmJwzjwd u0IAnRl/LFdwFIPcuge92QxTSKdp0uvx =Xifp -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/06/2012 09:17 PM, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: Compiling a kernel for a laptop will let you eliminate a lot of drivers because you only have limited hardware changes... This might have made since in 1999 when Linux was first getting started and every byte mattered. However, today, with terabyte storage and 8GB of RAM for less than $100 USD (each) this makes no sense at all. You're just wasting your time. Not having modules or compiling in modules provides zero performance benefit. Just FYI. P.S. Perfect item to add to Tim's list. :) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/06/2012 03:38 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 08/06/2012 01:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: >> On 06.08.2012 15:52, Michael Cronenworth wrote: >>> Tim wrote: Just look at the feature list on the documentation, or websites, and the idiot admins will target them first. And, if you have a desktop that still has normal menus, look through the system admin items for more ideas. >>> I can think of one item you missed from your list: >>> >>> Disable IPv6 (disabling it cures cancer!) >> >> OK, but what if I don't need it? You can say that it's harmless etc. But >> why the hell then, people recompile the kernel to disable other unused >> modules/features? Are they cargo cult sysadmins? >> >> Maybe it's not so bad idea to disable all unused pieces of software in >> your system? >> > > IMAO, it all depends on why you're disabling it. Are you doing it because you don't use it and don't ever expect to (Short-sighted, if you ask me, but it's your box, not mine.) or are you disabling it to avoid problems that it either doesn't cause or, at least, hasn't caused in a long time? Disabling it because the system you are compiling the kernel for will not support the hardware. No need for SATA, PCI, or cardbus stuff on a system that only has PCMCIA slots for expansion. You do not need the USB drivers because it does not have, USB hardware, and you can not find PCMCIA USB cards. (I have a cardbus USB card, but that does not help.) But this is not something most people run into. Compiling a kernel for a laptop will let you eliminate a lot of drivers because you only have limited hardware changes... A server that is not going to get hardware changes. ... Mikkel - -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlAgesEACgkQqbQrVW3JyMSeyQCfVhffRqTSituFCsng9dIAILJn bTMAn3HlH8RwxHeSQLlIka2YmoBNOyGw =hbEv -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/06/2012 02:13 PM, Hakan Koseoglu wrote: There are plenty of reasons for disabling SELINUX (well, this one is for RHEL actually but hey, see http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E11882_01/relnotes.112/e23558/toc.htm#CJADHDFJ) and they're valid. On the other hand, it should be set to permissive as discussed. I'm not saying that there aren't. However, I've seen several cases here, and more on fedoraforum where people have disabled SELinux because some program's crashing, but there aren't any alerts, and then wondering why it didn't magically fix the problem. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 2012/08/06 14:13, Hakan Koseoglu wrote:
On 6 August 2012 22:05, Joe Zeff wrote:
Which means, of course, that you have a good reason for starting out the
way you do. Not, IMAO, cargo cult.
There are plenty of reasons for disabling SELINUX (well, this one is
for RHEL actually but hey, see
http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E11882_01/relnotes.112/e23558/toc.htm#CJADHDFJ)
and they're valid. On the other hand, it should be set to permissive
as discussed. (On the other hand when I do that, I get mails from
various people about the "errors" in the logs). The hardest thing is
to teach people which errors/warnings to pay attention to and which
errors/warnings can be ignored reasonably. Unfortunately Oracle has
taken 11.1 documentation down, otherwise I could quote "disable
SELINUX" bit. (Thanks Oracle, you stopping supporting it doesn't mean
us real-world techies have stopped still using and battling with it).
Instead of telling people to ignore the logs figure out how to fix it.
I battled my install to a draw. I finally have exactly one error which
seems to be a cart and horse issue with the mce log. Everything else
has been cleaned up, usually by following the suggestions from SELinux
itself.
{^_^}
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 6 August 2012 22:05, Joe Zeff wrote: > Which means, of course, that you have a good reason for starting out the > way you do. Not, IMAO, cargo cult. There are plenty of reasons for disabling SELINUX (well, this one is for RHEL actually but hey, see http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E11882_01/relnotes.112/e23558/toc.htm#CJADHDFJ) and they're valid. On the other hand, it should be set to permissive as discussed. (On the other hand when I do that, I get mails from various people about the "errors" in the logs). The hardest thing is to teach people which errors/warnings to pay attention to and which errors/warnings can be ignored reasonably. Unfortunately Oracle has taken 11.1 documentation down, otherwise I could quote "disable SELINUX" bit. (Thanks Oracle, you stopping supporting it doesn't mean us real-world techies have stopped still using and battling with it). -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/06/2012 01:59 PM, Steven Stern wrote: I do, but they're generally my problem like copying stuff from ~ into /var/www/html. Occasionally, something more serious. SELINUX has never been completely clean for me. Which means, of course, that you have a good reason for starting out the way you do. Not, IMAO, cargo cult. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 2012/08/06 13:40, Ian Malone wrote:
On 6 August 2012 21:06, Joe Zeff wrote:
It looks like I may have created a new use of Cargo Cult, based on Cargo
Cult Programming. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming,
http://foldoc.org/cargo+cult) My thought was that disabling SELinux as a
first step in troubleshooting any and every problem, even when there's no
evidence that it's involved was equivalent to natives in New Guinea creating
mockups of landing strips after WWII thinking that planes filled with cargo
would land there. Most of your suggestions, although bad ideas in and of
themselves, don't have this (to me) important quality: IMO, to be considered
cargo cult sysadminning, the practice must either have nothing to do with
the problem it's intended to fix (Disabling your firewall because sshd
doesn't start.) or is no longer relevant, such as most instances of
reflexive disabling of SELinux. YMMV, and probably does, but I did think
that I should put my original meaning for the term on the record.
Well, the thing is that SELinux often has effects that aren't
particularly obvious. After upgrading to F15 I found I couldn't log in
without disabling SELinux. At that point you can either try and fix
the problem or ignore it and carry on with SELinux disabled forever,
in doing the latter you haven't understood what's wrong or what other
problems might be involved.
SELinux permissive mode is a better diagnostic than simply turning it off,
too.
{o.o}
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Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/06/2012 03:55 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 08/06/2012 01:47 PM, Steven Stern wrote: >> I always start with SELINUX in permissive mode and run that way for a >> couple of weeks while I monitor the messages. > > Permissive mode; not disabled, and you monitor the messages. Just out > of curiosity, do you generally get some when you first install? I do, but they're generally my problem like copying stuff from ~ into /var/www/html. Occasionally, something more serious. SELINUX has never been completely clean for me. On my public server, however, I did start with it in fully enabled mode. -- -- Steve -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/06/2012 01:47 PM, Steven Stern wrote: I always start with SELINUX in permissive mode and run that way for a couple of weeks while I monitor the messages. Permissive mode; not disabled, and you monitor the messages. Just out of curiosity, do you generally get some when you first install? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/06/2012 01:40 PM, Ian Malone wrote: Well, the thing is that SELinux often has effects that aren't particularly obvious. After upgrading to F15 I found I couldn't log in without disabling SELinux. At that point you can either try and fix the problem or ignore it and carry on with SELinux disabled forever, in doing the latter you haven't understood what's wrong or what other problems might be involved. Did you try putting it in permissive mode to see if you got any alerts? Yes, I know that this is drifting off-topic, but it's also discussing the difference between what I'm objecting to and doing something that might eventually let you fix what's wrong. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/06/2012 03:40 PM, Ian Malone wrote: > On 6 August 2012 21:06, Joe Zeff wrote: > >> >> It looks like I may have created a new use of Cargo Cult, based on Cargo >> Cult Programming. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming, >> http://foldoc.org/cargo+cult) My thought was that disabling SELinux as a >> first step in troubleshooting any and every problem, even when there's no >> evidence that it's involved was equivalent to natives in New Guinea creating >> mockups of landing strips after WWII thinking that planes filled with cargo >> would land there. Most of your suggestions, although bad ideas in and of >> themselves, don't have this (to me) important quality: IMO, to be considered >> cargo cult sysadminning, the practice must either have nothing to do with >> the problem it's intended to fix (Disabling your firewall because sshd >> doesn't start.) or is no longer relevant, such as most instances of >> reflexive disabling of SELinux. YMMV, and probably does, but I did think >> that I should put my original meaning for the term on the record. >> > > Well, the thing is that SELinux often has effects that aren't > particularly obvious. After upgrading to F15 I found I couldn't log in > without disabling SELinux. At that point you can either try and fix > the problem or ignore it and carry on with SELinux disabled forever, > in doing the latter you haven't understood what's wrong or what other > problems might be involved. > I always start with SELINUX in permissive mode and run that way for a couple of weeks while I monitor the messages. For true Cargo Cult, emulate your internet provider's technical support. "Please reboot your computer and plug it into the modem. From Internet Explorer What? No, you must use Windows." Clearly, the solution to any problem is to install Windows. -- -- Steve -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 6 August 2012 21:06, Joe Zeff wrote: > > It looks like I may have created a new use of Cargo Cult, based on Cargo > Cult Programming. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming, > http://foldoc.org/cargo+cult) My thought was that disabling SELinux as a > first step in troubleshooting any and every problem, even when there's no > evidence that it's involved was equivalent to natives in New Guinea creating > mockups of landing strips after WWII thinking that planes filled with cargo > would land there. Most of your suggestions, although bad ideas in and of > themselves, don't have this (to me) important quality: IMO, to be considered > cargo cult sysadminning, the practice must either have nothing to do with > the problem it's intended to fix (Disabling your firewall because sshd > doesn't start.) or is no longer relevant, such as most instances of > reflexive disabling of SELinux. YMMV, and probably does, but I did think > that I should put my original meaning for the term on the record. > Well, the thing is that SELinux often has effects that aren't particularly obvious. After upgrading to F15 I found I couldn't log in without disabling SELinux. At that point you can either try and fix the problem or ignore it and carry on with SELinux disabled forever, in doing the latter you haven't understood what's wrong or what other problems might be involved. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/06/2012 01:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: On 06.08.2012 15:52, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Tim wrote: Just look at the feature list on the documentation, or websites, and the idiot admins will target them first. And, if you have a desktop that still has normal menus, look through the system admin items for more ideas. I can think of one item you missed from your list: Disable IPv6 (disabling it cures cancer!) OK, but what if I don't need it? You can say that it's harmless etc. But why the hell then, people recompile the kernel to disable other unused modules/features? Are they cargo cult sysadmins? Maybe it's not so bad idea to disable all unused pieces of software in your system? IMAO, it all depends on why you're disabling it. Are you doing it because you don't use it and don't ever expect to (Short-sighted, if you ask me, but it's your box, not mine.) or are you disabling it to avoid problems that it either doesn't cause or, at least, hasn't caused in a long time? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 06.08.2012 15:52, Michael Cronenworth wrote: > Tim wrote: >> Just look at the feature list on the documentation, or websites, and the >> idiot admins will target them first. And, if you have a desktop that >> still has normal menus, look through the system admin items for more >> ideas. > I can think of one item you missed from your list: > > Disable IPv6 (disabling it cures cancer!) OK, but what if I don't need it? You can say that it's harmless etc. But why the hell then, people recompile the kernel to disable other unused modules/features? Are they cargo cult sysadmins? Maybe it's not so bad idea to disable all unused pieces of software in your system? Mateusz Marzantowicz -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/06/2012 04:35 AM, Tim wrote: On Sat, 2012-08-04 at 21:30 -0500, Javier Perez wrote: >Is there any list of Cargo cult sysadmin practices for Fedora? Just look at the feature list on the documentation, or websites, and the idiot admins will target them first. And, if you have a desktop that still has normal menus, look through the system admin items for more ideas. [sniping a long list of suggested practices] It looks like I may have created a new use of Cargo Cult, based on Cargo Cult Programming. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming, http://foldoc.org/cargo+cult) My thought was that disabling SELinux as a first step in troubleshooting any and every problem, even when there's no evidence that it's involved was equivalent to natives in New Guinea creating mockups of landing strips after WWII thinking that planes filled with cargo would land there. Most of your suggestions, although bad ideas in and of themselves, don't have this (to me) important quality: IMO, to be considered cargo cult sysadminning, the practice must either have nothing to do with the problem it's intended to fix (Disabling your firewall because sshd doesn't start.) or is no longer relevant, such as most instances of reflexive disabling of SELinux. YMMV, and probably does, but I did think that I should put my original meaning for the term on the record. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
Tim wrote: > Just look at the feature list on the documentation, or websites, and the > idiot admins will target them first. And, if you have a desktop that > still has normal menus, look through the system admin items for more > ideas. I can think of one item you missed from your list: Disable IPv6 (disabling it cures cancer!) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/06/2012 02:35 PM, Tim wrote: Disabling SELinux Disabling firewalls Removing Pulseaudio OK for these. Not for the rest. :-P -- RMA. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On Sat, 2012-08-04 at 21:30 -0500, Javier Perez wrote: > Is there any list of Cargo cult sysadmin practices for Fedora? Just look at the feature list on the documentation, or websites, and the idiot admins will target them first. And, if you have a desktop that still has normal menus, look through the system admin items for more ideas. Disabling SELinux Disabling firewalls Removing Pulseaudio Removing Network Manager Not configuring their DHCP server, but messing around with all the clients. Presetting "yes" as a a robot answer before yum installing/updating Running as root Buggering up the screen DPI instead of changing font sizes Setting up auto-login, or logins without a password Using the same password for everything Only ever trying out Gnome or KDE Installing everything, and the neighbour's kitchen sink -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Cargo Cult sysadmining
On 08/05/2012 03:30 AM, Javier Perez wrote: > Hi > > Is there any list of Cargo cult sysadmin practices for Fedora? A perennial favourite: * disable, remove and BURN WITH FIRE pulseaudio at the first sign of any sound playback trouble. It doesn't matter if it caused it. It must be purged and punished as an offering to the gods. Bryn. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
