Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Ranbir]

On Mon, 2018-10-22 at 16:45 +, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> There is already a Fedora instance running, although topics are
> limited:  https://discussion.fedoraproject.org

Holy shit, no. Look at how ugly and distracting it all is.

That being said, I do have to read forums like that for some of the
projects I use, but believe you me, I haven't joined them. Even when I
know I could help someone, I don't join. Of the forums I have joined
over the years, I've posted a handful of times.

Forums are terrible for discourse.


-- 
Ranbir

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Robbi Nespu]

Seem CommOps are replacing mail list with Discourse
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/welcome-to-community-operations-commops-category-on-fedora-discourse/495
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[stan]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:42:44 -0400
Robert Moskowitz  wrote:

> I am using Discourse with Nethserver.  It **DOES** have an email 
> interface!  I receive an email for each posting tagged in the subject 
> for which sub-forum it is associated with.  I CAN respond directly
> via email, but it does take some time to get posted.  Or I can click
> on the provided link and go to that thread and respond there.
> 
> Your people thinking about Discourse should talk to the Nethserver 
> people about their email config
> setup.
> 
> That said, the email interface is not as good as the web one, but it 
> does work for simple responses.  Mail filtering on the subject does 
> allow me to put all messages into proper folders here.
> 
> Another advantage of email is I can read and respond while I am on a 
> plane (provided I synced down my inbox, but all folders are local). 
> Can't do that with a forum with the performance you get with airplane 
> internet connectivity.  Particularly trans-ocean.
> 
> So my vote on forums and Discourse is a -0.5.
> 
> But if you DO go with it, configure it similar to what Nethserver 
> community has done.  Then get the Discourse people to improve the
> email interface.  And maybe the Thunderbird people can do
> improvements or maybe a plugin for better response capability.

Thanks for this real life experience, and correcting my
misunderstanding. I wonder if the list mail server could be subscribed
to the Discourse instance. Then the mail server would automatically
take care of passing messages back and forth.  A post to the mail list
would show up in Discourse, and a post in Discourse would automatically
show up on the mail list. Transparent to users of both.  And the mail
list archives would serve as a backup to the Discourse archives, just
as the Discourse archives would serve as a backup to the mail list.
Maybe that is stretching the functionality of both Discourse and the
mail server too far.  But a big plus for being completely transparent to
users of both Discourse and the mail list, while allowing both to
contribute in the same conversations.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 06:56:09PM -0700, stan wrote:


Silverblue is the new name, only recently changed, for atomic host,
Fedora's containerized OS.  My understanding is that this is mostly for
cloud usage.


I don't think so::

 "By F30, the Atomic variant will be the preferred Workstation
  offering."

https://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/Team%20Silverblue%20-%20The%20Origins.pdf

Regards
Wolfgang
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Robert Moskowitz]

My $0.02 tossed into the fire

I have not followed this thread and do not know if I will read 
everything that has occurred since this first post and now.


I started on email in '92 with mcimail to interact with the IETF to work 
on the TN3270E project.  Got my domain name in '95.  Loved Eudora for 
years and made the transition to Thunderbird when I transitioned from 
Windows to Centos on my notebook (longgg ago, before Fedora was an option).


I DO NOT like forums.  I have to have too many tabs open on too many 
copies of Firefox to track everything versus a mail folder.  It is 
significantly harder to participate in multiple conversations.


I am using Discourse with Nethserver.  It **DOES** have an email 
interface!  I receive an email for each posting tagged in the subject 
for which sub-forum it is associated with.  I CAN respond directly via 
email, but it does take some time to get posted.  Or I can click on the 
provided link and go to that thread and respond there.


Your people thinking about Discourse should talk to the Nethserver 
people about their email config

setup.

That said, the email interface is not as good as the web one, but it 
does work for simple responses.  Mail filtering on the subject does 
allow me to put all messages into proper folders here.


Another advantage of email is I can read and respond while I am on a 
plane (provided I synced down my inbox, but all folders are local). 
Can't do that with a forum with the performance you get with airplane 
internet connectivity.  Particularly trans-ocean.


So my vote on forums and Discourse is a -0.5.

But if you DO go with it, configure it similar to what Nethserver 
community has done.  Then get the Discourse people to improve the email 
interface.  And maybe the Thunderbird people can do improvements or 
maybe a plugin for better response capability.


Robert Moskowitz
IETF Greybeard (since IETF 26)
IEEE Senior Member (since '01)

On 10/20/18 5:42 PM, stan wrote:

Hi,
There's a big mail thread on fedora-devel about using a web forum
software called Discourse instead of mailing lists.  The idea is that
it would invigorate the Fedora community by encouraging younger people
raised on social media and mobile platforms to contribute.  One of the
targets they have mentioned is the user list, because of its nature of
short term question and answer topics. There has been push-back by
developers because they have their custom solutions all working great
around email lists for doing their work.

I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
list feel about that.  Which would you prefer?  Unfortunately, it's an
either / or proposal, because there is no interface in Discourse for
emails from an email list to be put in their forums, though they do
have email notification for new web messages.  Would you willingly or
reluctantly migrate to the new platform?

Here are a few links from that thread.

https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html

https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/

https://meta.discourse.org/t/what-is-mailing-list-mode/46008/9

https://meta.discourse.org/t/biggest-busiest-discourse-forums/30674

In order to access discourse, because fedora is using the hosting
provided by discourse, you will have to grant js access to

http://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Bob Marcan]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:49:38 +0100
Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:

> On Tue, 2018-10-23 at 07:28 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > Discourse has very good RSS support and I've been testing the feeds for
> > several weeks now.  That feature
> > works quite well - and keeps you from cluttering your inbox with postings -
> > while still providing the content
> > and a simply way to respond.  
> 
> I keep my inbox uncluttered by using filters. I've little doubt that
> most people here do the same.
> 
> poc

Same here. Don't change something, which works well.
Forums are not for me.
BR, Bob
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Porfirio Andrés Páiz Carrasco]

El sáb., 20 de oct. de 2018 a la(s) 16:02, stan
(stanl-fedorau...@vfemail.net) escribió:
>
> Hi,
> There's a big mail thread on fedora-devel about using a web forum
> software called Discourse instead of mailing lists.  The idea is that
> it would invigorate the Fedora community by encouraging younger people
> raised on social media and mobile platforms to contribute.  One of the
> targets they have mentioned is the user list, because of its nature of
> short term question and answer topics. There has been push-back by
> developers because they have their custom solutions all working great
> around email lists for doing their work.

Hi,
I'm not a Developer, I'm just a Fedora user and I'm subscribed to
several mailing list from the Fedora Project, including the mailing
list related to Development discussion on Fedora.

I rely primarily on GMail Web client, I use filters to get all the
emails sorted by mailing lists. To be honest I don't see the need to
move the discussions from mailing list to any forum alike driven
discussion board.

And I share other members views from members of this list and the
devel list: If this mailing list or any other is ditched in favor of
this new shinny thing I don't plan to move to that and will stop
reading and attending discussions.

> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> list feel about that.  Which would you prefer?  Unfortunately, it's an
> either / or proposal, because there is no interface in Discourse for
> emails from an email list to be put in their forums, though they do
> have email notification for new web messages.  Would you willingly or
> reluctantly migrate to the new platform?

From what I read on these threads:

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/2JF56W6XK4LZS2BG4CJNSKLMYEFVXDD7/#2JF56W6XK4LZS2BG4CJNSKLMYEFVXDD7

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/3MZCLLM47LIO6LFJC33RIFJHTIKQPFWP/#GYWWWMMF2G3KUERA5F6DSVP3GJQUL53A

* It is not possible to start discussions from a mailing list so that
it can appear on Discourse.
* Despide having a _mailing list_ mode it does not fit or actually
lack some features mailing list have, so for me is not a good
replacement contrarily to what was stated on one of these threads.

There is a new thread on Discourse that was created to address a topic
on non English languages category and I don't plan to participate
there.

Polite as usual,
Porfirio.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:03:31PM +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> Forums provide a fixed, and IMO, usually poor web based interface
> with suboptimal coposition tools (the web form, or occasionally some
> ghastly WYSYWIG rich text editor) with no options for people to pick
> their own.
> 
> Forums promote the context free reply, and the top post. Both of
> which are of low value.

I'm not sayin' you have to look at Discourse, but the people who made it
actually thought of this stuff. It may not agree with you, but it tries to
do context and threading right, and uses a lightweight markdown-based editor
with real-time preview.

It isn't your traditional "bb" clone.


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:50 AM Patrick O'Callaghan 
wrote:

> On Tue, 2018-10-23 at 07:28 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > Discourse has very good RSS support and I've been testing the feeds for
> > several weeks now.  That feature
> > works quite well - and keeps you from cluttering your inbox with
> postings -
> > while still providing the content
> > and a simply way to respond.
>
> I keep my inbox uncluttered by using filters. I've little doubt that
> most people here do the same.
>

That's fine... my point was some people prefer RSS feeds.  I'm one of them
- and if you like RSS feeds
Discourse has the support.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2018-10-23 at 07:28 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> Discourse has very good RSS support and I've been testing the feeds for
> several weeks now.  That feature
> works quite well - and keeps you from cluttering your inbox with postings -
> while still providing the content
> and a simply way to respond.

I keep my inbox uncluttered by using filters. I've little doubt that
most people here do the same.

poc
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[stan]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 09:41:44 -0400
Todd Zullinger  wrote:

> Tim via users wrote:
> > On Mon, 2018-10-22 at 18:56 -0700, stan wrote:  
> >> I wasn't clear.  The link isn't to any potential replacement for
> >> the users list.  
> > 
> > Oh really?  What's the subject line for this thread say?  And the
> > content of the first message.  This thread that you started...  
> 
> (At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth...)
> 
> I believe the point stan was making was that the Discourse
> instance in the link is not configured nor designed as an
> example of replacing the users list.  It is a general
> instance and various groups are using it.  If it were used
> to host similar discussions as this list, there would likely
> be a category dedicated to user support as there are for
> other groups.
> 
> That's why it was in reply to Doug's post noting that there
> were so many terms which had never come up on this list.
> 
You said it better than I did.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:49 AM Berend De Schouwer <
berend.de.schou...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 2018-10-22 at 20:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > On 10/22/18 5:27 PM, SternData wrote:
> >
> > > I'm OK with a web forum as long as it has an RSS feed.
> >
> > You might not be aware about it, but RSS is effectivly dead, IIRC,
> > because major browsers soon will drop supporting RSS or already
> > dropped it.
>
> I've used rss for years, and still do.
>
> I've never needed nor wanted browser support to do it, but extensions
> do exist, and they do work.
>
> Do you go to 100 news sites every day, or one rss reader?
> Do you go to 100 forums every day, or one mail client?
>

People have been writing obituaries for RSS ever since Google discontinued
Reader.  There are plenty
of click-bait stories about it - just do a search.  I agree that the fact
that browsers are discontinuing support
is no big deal... the feature within the browsers wasn't used by many
people because you get a much
better experience using a specialized client or website:
https://fossbytes.com/best-rss-reader-apps/

Discourse has very good RSS support and I've been testing the feeds for
several weeks now.  That feature
works quite well - and keeps you from cluttering your inbox with postings -
while still providing the content
and a simply way to respond.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Todd Zullinger]

Tim via users wrote:
> On Mon, 2018-10-22 at 18:56 -0700, stan wrote:
>> I wasn't clear.  The link isn't to any potential replacement for the
>> users list.
> 
> Oh really?  What's the subject line for this thread say?  And the
> content of the first message.  This thread that you started...

(At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth...)

I believe the point stan was making was that the Discourse
instance in the link is not configured nor designed as an
example of replacing the users list.  It is a general
instance and various groups are using it.  If it were used
to host similar discussions as this list, there would likely
be a category dedicated to user support as there are for
other groups.

That's why it was in reply to Doug's post noting that there
were so many terms which had never come up on this list.

-- 
Todd
~~
Hard work never killed anybody, but it is illegal in some places.
-- Demotivators (www.despair.com)



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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Berend De Schouwer]

On Mon, 2018-10-22 at 20:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 10/22/18 5:27 PM, SternData wrote:
> 
> > I'm OK with a web forum as long as it has an RSS feed. 
> 
> You might not be aware about it, but RSS is effectivly dead, IIRC, 
> because major browsers soon will drop supporting RSS or already
> dropped it.

I've used rss for years, and still do.

I've never needed nor wanted browser support to do it, but extensions
do exist, and they do work.

Do you go to 100 news sites every day, or one rss reader?
Do you go to 100 forums every day, or one mail client?
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Roberto Ragusa]

On 10/21/2018 12:55 AM, Stephen Perkins wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:01 PM stan  wrote:
>> Would you willingly or
>> reluctantly migrate to the new platform?
>>
> 
> Neither.  If this list disappears, I will too.
I would disappear too, having been a subscriber since 2005
is probably enough. You are welcome in replacing me with
a young user browsing a forum from his tablet.

-- 
   Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Tim via users]

On Mon, 2018-10-22 at 18:56 -0700, stan wrote:
> I wasn't clear.  The link isn't to any potential replacement for the
> users list.

Oh really?  What's the subject line for this thread say?  And the
content of the first message.  This thread that you started...

Who are you, the Iraqi minister for information?

-- 
Boilerplate:  All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
There is no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see
the messages posted to the mailing list.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[stan]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 22:04:28 -0400
Matthew Miller  wrote:

> Silverblue is the name for using some of our designed-for-cloud-usage
> technologies for a desktop operating system. You can read more about
> it here: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-silverblue/
 
I want to compliment you on the installation instructions, as well as
the rest of the documentation.  It seems so easy I might try it sooner
rather than later.  :-)
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 06:56:09PM -0700, stan wrote:
> Silverblue is the new name, only recently changed, for atomic host,
> Fedora's containerized OS.  My understanding is that this is mostly for
> cloud usage.  It sounds neat, but is still in early days, though there

Silverblue is the name for using some of our designed-for-cloud-usage
technologies for a desktop operating system. You can read more about it
here: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-silverblue/


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[stan]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:30:33 -0700
"Doug H."  wrote:

> I have been doing some reading at https://discussion.fedoraproject.org
> 
> It is as if it is a totally different list compared to this list. I
> had not even heard of Silverblue until reading there. Seems like a
> good percentage of the contributors are using it. There are some
> questions that would fit right in here but mostly not. So I am either
> missing something or the user base of that list is not the same as
> here. Maybe we are all the old school and they are all new?
> 
> But even if it were 100% the same I would vote with the folk that like
> the mailing list much better. I will not promise to never read that
> forum if this one goes away but I know I will check it much less than
> I have been checking this one.

I wasn't clear.  The link isn't to any potential replacement for the
users list.  It is to a sample that is for some other lists in fedora
so people could see what Discourse looked like, and how it works.
Silverblue is the new name, only recently changed, for atomic host,
Fedora's containerized OS.  My understanding is that this is mostly for
cloud usage.  It sounds neat, but is still in early days, though there
are modules in repositories available for standard rpm Fedora now, too.
There are ongoing discussions about whether it can co-exist with rpm
Fedora in the long term, how to retain package synchronization, etc.  I
haven't tried any containers yet, and I'm not sure that a container OS
makes sense for my use case, but as it matures, I might give it a whirl.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Samuel Sieb]

On 10/22/18 2:30 PM, Doug H. wrote:

I have been doing some reading at https://discussion.fedoraproject.org

It is as if it is a totally different list compared to this list. I had
not even heard of Silverblue until reading there. Seems like a good
percentage of the contributors are using it. There are some questions
that would fit right in here but mostly not. So I am either missing
something or the user base of that list is not the same as here. Maybe
we are all the old school and they are all new?


It's completely separate from this list.  There is no connection other 
than probably some users in common.

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Samuel Sieb]

On 10/22/18 11:14 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
You might not be aware about it, but RSS is effectivly dead, IIRC, 
because major browsers soon will drop supporting RSS or already dropped it.


There are extensions for the browsers to add RSS support.  The browser 
developers just don't want to have to support code that is used by only 
a very small percentage of their users.  They know that there are better 
extensions available than their outdated builtin code.  The post from 
Mozilla pointed that out.

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Doug H.]

On Sat, 2018-10-20 at 14:42 -0700, stan wrote:
> Hi,
> There's a big mail thread on fedora-devel about using a web forum
> software called Discourse instead of mailing lists.  The idea is that
> it would invigorate the Fedora community by encouraging younger
> people
> raised on social media and mobile platforms to contribute.  One of
> the
> targets they have mentioned is the user list, because of its nature
> of
> short term question and answer topics. There has been push-back by
> developers because they have their custom solutions all working great
> around email lists for doing their work.
> 
> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> list feel about that.  Which would you prefer?  Unfortunately, it's
> an
> either / or proposal, because there is no interface in Discourse for
> emails from an email list to be put in their forums, though they do
> have email notification for new web messages.  Would you willingly or
> reluctantly migrate to the new platform?
> 
> Here are a few links from that thread.
> 
> 
https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> 
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/


Long time user of Fedora (since Redhat 5.1 or so). Long time reader
(subscribed in 2015 after having read it quietly for a time). Not very
frequent poster.

I have been doing some reading at https://discussion.fedoraproject.org

It is as if it is a totally different list compared to this list. I had
not even heard of Silverblue until reading there. Seems like a good
percentage of the contributors are using it. There are some questions
that would fit right in here but mostly not. So I am either missing
something or the user base of that list is not the same as here. Maybe
we are all the old school and they are all new?

But even if it were 100% the same I would vote with the folk that like
the mailing list much better. I will not promise to never read that
forum if this one goes away but I know I will check it much less than I
have been checking this one.

-- 
Doug H.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Joe Zeff]

On 10/22/2018 02:18 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
This was my first and only post on this list.  I was providing 
information to correct some fallacies previously mentioned.  I have 
never attempted to silence someone who had a different opinion.  Again 
you should read the code of conduct and stop trying to silence people.


I can't honestly see where I was (or am) trying to silence anybody.  I 
have just been pointing out that the overwhelming response to the 
suggestion was negative and that there didn't seem to be any point in 
continuing discussion.  And, if you'll go back over the thread, you'll 
see that I've had good things to say about forums and expressed no 
personal opinion of the idea.  Judging by the response, it would 
probably be a bad idea, but I'd have no reason to walk away, preferring 
to give it a try.  Alas, I seem to be in the minority and unlike some 
others, I don't see how beating a dead horse is going to help.  If 
that's what you call "trying to silence people," your understanding of 
those words is considerably different than mine.

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 17:08 Joe Zeff  wrote:

> On 10/22/2018 01:53 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> > On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 11:17:24 -0600
> > Joe Zeff  wrote:
> >
> >> If you want a web forum so badly, start one and see if anybody
> >> joins, but continuing to try to persuade everybody here to change
> >> over is a waste of time.  Just give it a rest and get on with your
> >> life.
> > I dunno Joe, the OP asked about opinion and interest, I don't think
> > that's a waste of time, even a negative response is informative.
>
> Yes, he got an overwhelming lack of interest and a number of regulars
> who wrote that they'd leave if that happened.  He asked a question and
> got an answer he didn't like.  His keeping the discussion going at this
> point serves no useful purpose that I can see because too many of those
> who don't like the idea are too adamant for further discussion to be
> persuasive.
>
> This was my first and only post on this list.  I was providing information
> to correct some fallacies previously mentioned.  I have never attempted to
> silence someone who had a different opinion.  Again you should read the
> code of conduct and stop trying to silence people.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Joe Zeff]

On 10/22/2018 01:53 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 11:17:24 -0600
Joe Zeff  wrote:


If you want a web forum so badly, start one and see if anybody
joins, but continuing to try to persuade everybody here to change
over is a waste of time.  Just give it a rest and get on with your
life.

I dunno Joe, the OP asked about opinion and interest, I don't think
that's a waste of time, even a negative response is informative.


Yes, he got an overwhelming lack of interest and a number of regulars 
who wrote that they'd leave if that happened.  He asked a question and 
got an answer he didn't like.  His keeping the discussion going at this 
point serves no useful purpose that I can see because too many of those 
who don't like the idea are too adamant for further discussion to be 
persuasive.

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Dave Stevens]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 11:17:24 -0600
Joe Zeff  wrote:

> If you want a web forum so badly, start one and see if anybody 
> joins, but continuing to try to persuade everybody here to change
> over is a waste of time.  Just give it a rest and get on with your
> life.

I dunno Joe, the OP asked about opinion and interest, I don't think
that's a waste of time, even a negative response is informative.

D

-- 
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.

- Ursula Le Guin
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 14:18 Joe Zeff  wrote:

> On 10/22/2018 10:45 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > There is already a Fedora instance running, although topics are limited:
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org
> > Here is the Discourse support forum:https://meta.discourse.org/
> > Here is Mozilla's:https://discourse.mozilla.org/
> >
> > If you prefer using an email interface, I would suggest you give the
> mailing list mode a try.
>
>  From the replies I've read, most of the members who have expressed an
> opinion would either leave the list because they dislike forums, or
> would leave it because the people they depend upon for help have left.
> My impression is that moving this list to a forum would effectively kill
> it.  If you want a web forum so badly, start one and see if anybody
> joins, but continuing to try to persuade everybody here to change over
> is a waste of time.  Just give it a rest and get on with your life.
>

I suggest that you read the code of conduct.  I was simply trying to
provide information... but instead I get snide replies.  This is an ongoing
problem with this mailing list.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:46:20PM -0600, Joe Zeff wrote:
> >Note that while there is no active proposal to switch this mailing list to
> >Discourse, there*is*  exactly that for Ask Fedora. The AskBot software is
> >not really actively developed (and has no community around development).
> I use that forum daily, and find it good enough at what it does.
> There are some minor tweaks I'd like to see, such as telling new
> users that their question/answer/comment is waiting for moderation,

Right, minor tweaks like that are very unlikely, and bug fixes are too.


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Joe Zeff]

On 10/22/2018 12:15 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

Note that while there is no active proposal to switch this mailing list to
Discourse, there*is*  exactly that for Ask Fedora. The AskBot software is
not really actively developed (and has no community around development).


I use that forum daily, and find it good enough at what it does.  There 
are some minor tweaks I'd like to see, such as telling new users that 
their question/answer/comment is waiting for moderation, so that they 
don't try to make the same posts two or more times (All that happens is 
that a moderator will decline the dupes and accept the original, without 
penalty.) making my job as a moderator a tad easier.  Also, some of the 
reasons for declining a post should either be rephrased or removed, but 
that's just cosmetic.  I don't see any need for it to be in active 
development in the sense of adding new bells, whistles and gongs as long 
as there's somebody available who is both willing and able to patch any 
bugs that show up.  I wouldn't want this mailing list to migrate to an 
instance of askbot, because mailing lists and forums serve different 
needs in different ways.

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[SternData]

On 10/22/18 1:14 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 10/22/18 5:27 PM, SternData wrote:
> 
>> I'm OK with a web forum as long as it has an RSS feed. 
> 
> You might not be aware about it, but RSS is effectivly dead, IIRC,
> because major browsers soon will drop supporting RSS or already dropped it.
> 
> Ralf

Have you tried feedly.com?  I pick up a bunch of newspapers, tech sites,
and more using it.


-- 
-- Steve
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Bob Marcan]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:17:08 -0400
Tom Horsley  wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:42:20 -0700
> stan wrote:
> 
> > I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> > list feel about that.  
> 
> There is already a fedoraforum which I don't use at all because
> I despise forums because they are nothing like as useful as mailing lists.

+++
BR, Bob
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 10/22/18 5:27 PM, SternData wrote:

I'm OK with a web forum as long as it has an RSS feed. 


You might not be aware about it, but RSS is effectivly dead, IIRC, 
because major browsers soon will drop supporting RSS or already dropped it.


Ralf

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 09:20:59AM -, Federico Bruni wrote:
> As pointed out by others, another active and modern forum exists already:
> https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/questions/

Note that while there is no active proposal to switch this mailing list to
Discourse, there *is* exactly that for Ask Fedora. The AskBot software is
not really actively developed (and has no community around development). 

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Joe Zeff]

On 10/22/2018 10:45 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:

There is already a Fedora instance running, although topics are 
limited:https://discussion.fedoraproject.org
Here is the Discourse support forum:https://meta.discourse.org/
Here is Mozilla's:https://discourse.mozilla.org/

If you prefer using an email interface, I would suggest you give the mailing 
list mode a try.


From the replies I've read, most of the members who have expressed an 
opinion would either leave the list because they dislike forums, or 
would leave it because the people they depend upon for help have left. 
My impression is that moving this list to a forum would effectively kill 
it.  If you want a web forum so badly, start one and see if anybody 
joins, but continuing to try to persuade everybody here to change over 
is a waste of time.  Just give it a rest and get on with your life.

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Gerald B. Cox]

There appear to be a few misconceptions here on how Discourse works or I'm 
misunderstanding the replies.

1.  There are notifications - which mean a thread you are subscribed to or new 
topics are either sent to your email or an RSS feed or both.
2.  There is mailing-list mode, which allows you to post new topics and reply 
to others via your email.  That said, some have complained the email isn't 
formatted correct in their client.  Your mileage may vary - some people like 
it, some people don't.
3.  It's a different solution than hyperkitty - so if you don't like hyperkitty 
that doesn't mean you won't like Discourse.

There is already a Fedora instance running, although topics are limited:  
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org
Here is the Discourse support forum:  https://meta.discourse.org/
Here is Mozilla's:  https://discourse.mozilla.org/

If you prefer using an email interface, I would suggest you give the mailing 
list mode a try.  
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[SternData]

On 10/20/18 4:42 PM, stan wrote:
> Hi,
> There's a big mail thread on fedora-devel about using a web forum
> software called Discourse instead of mailing lists.  The idea is that
> it would invigorate the Fedora community by encouraging younger people
> raised on social media and mobile platforms to contribute.  One of the
> targets they have mentioned is the user list, because of its nature of
> short term question and answer topics. There has been push-back by
> developers because they have their custom solutions all working great
> around email lists for doing their work.
> 
> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> list feel about that.  Which would you prefer?  Unfortunately, it's an
> either / or proposal, because there is no interface in Discourse for
> emails from an email list to be put in their forums, though they do
> have email notification for new web messages.  Would you willingly or
> reluctantly migrate to the new platform?
> 

I'm OK with a web forum as long as it has an RSS feed. That lets me
monitor it more or less as I do with the mailing list.  I don't mind
going to a website for more info or to reply, but I want it as part of
my morning skimming of the news.


-- 
-- Steve
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Tim via users]

Allegedly, on or about 22 October 2018, Federico Bruni sent:
> Given the replies so far, my opinion is that this list should not
> switch to Discourse.

Likewise.

I imagine some confusion with *some* people not understanding why we
would want to keep a mailing list is probably with those people who
don't use regular mail clients for their mail.  If they're already
(doing the  inconvenient thing of) checking their email through a
website, they probably don't see any reason why not to doing something
else the same way.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 4.16.11-100.fc26.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue May 22 20:02:12 UTC 2018 x86_64

Boilerplate:  All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
There is no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see
the messages posted to the mailing list.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny,
not a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Federico Bruni]

> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> list feel about that.  Which would you prefer?  Unfortunately, it's an
> either / or proposal, because there is no interface in Discourse for
> emails from an email list to be put in their forums, though they do
> have email notification for new web messages.  Would you willingly or
> reluctantly migrate to the new platform?

Given the replies so far, my opinion is that this list should not switch to 
Discourse.

As pointed out by others, another active and modern forum exists already:
https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/questions/

Personally, as I don't have any time to filter emails from fedora-users and 
fedora-devel, I'll use HyperKitty forum to post to this list and skim through 
topics when I have some spare time for it.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 10/22/18 4:13 AM, Robbi Nespu wrote:

On 10/21/18 5:42 AM, stan wrote:

The idea is that
it would invigorate the Fedora community by encouraging younger people
raised on social media and mobile platforms to contribute.


Young people tend to use social media such twitter and facebook but
having forum board would be fun too. It easier to access.


IMHO, forums are nice to have for occasional use, when not frequently 
using them and when not closely following.


They are not a replacement for high volume mailing lists and when 
closely following them.


Ralf
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Joe Zeff]

On 10/21/2018 07:58 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/21/18 5:19 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 10/21/2018 05:48 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

The forums only work if you only subscribe to ONE forum and make
it your browser's home page.


I'm subscribed to three support forums that I check pretty much daily 
and none of them are my browser's home page.  You may need that 
constant reminder, but most of us don't.


Only three?  I am subscribed to about 40.  It took years.



Two forums supporting Fedora and one for Xfce.  I am subscribed to some 
others, but as they're not relevant to the discussion, I didn't bother 
to mention them earlier.

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Robbi Nespu]

On 10/21/18 5:42 AM, stan wrote:
> The idea is that
> it would invigorate the Fedora community by encouraging younger people
> raised on social media and mobile platforms to contribute.  

Young people tend to use social media such twitter and facebook but
having forum board would be fun too. It easier to access.

> One of the
> targets they have mentioned is the user list, because of its nature of
> short term question and answer topics. There has been push-back by
> developers because they have their custom solutions all working great
> around email lists for doing their work.

hurm.. https://ask.fedoraproject.org should be sync with stackExchange
just like askubuntu.com does. I know it already debates about it, but
just look at how sucesfully and active of askubuntu.com compare with
ask.fedoraproject.org

note : unix.stackexchange.com is available but too mixed up with other
disto, been specific would be better


> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> list feel about that.  Which would you prefer?  Unfortunately, it's an
> either / or proposal, because there is no interface in Discourse for
> emails from an email list to be put in their forums, though they do
> have email notification for new web messages.  Would you willingly or
> reluctantly migrate to the new platform?

It not going to be replace, look at *BSD sites, they also have web
forums but people tend to use IRC, mail list. Always keep the option for
user.

BTW my country blocking IRC ports, there is option to use freenode irc
chat or proxy/vpn.

Having mail list is the best option and now we have forum.. any of thus
are great.

All the best for Fedora. Keep the good work!

-- 

Robbi Nespu (CPRE, CTFL)
Twitter: @robbinespu | Skype: robbi.nespu | PGP: 0x6EA7B058
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[ToddAndMargo via users]

On 10/21/18 5:19 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 10/21/2018 05:48 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

The forums only work if you only subscribe to ONE forum and make
it your browser's home page.


I'm subscribed to three support forums that I check pretty much daily 
and none of them are my browser's home page.  You may need that constant 
reminder, but most of us don't.


Only three?  I am subscribed to about 40.  It took years.

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[George N. White III]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 19:01, stan  wrote:

> Hi,
> There's a big mail thread on fedora-devel about using a web forum
> software called Discourse instead of mailing lists.  The idea is that
> it would invigorate the Fedora community by encouraging younger people
> raised on social media and mobile platforms to contribute.  One of the
> targets they have mentioned is the user list, because of its nature of
> short term question and answer topics. There has been push-back by
> developers because they have their custom solutions all working great
> around email lists for doing their work.
>
> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> list feel about that.  Which would you prefer?  Unfortunately, it's an
> either / or proposal, because there is no interface in Discourse for
> emails from an email list to be put in their forums, though they do
> have email notification for new web messages.  Would you willingly or
> reluctantly migrate to the new platform?
>

I use forums for a couple mission-critical applications where I can afford
the
time to login and check forums on a daily basis.   Neither application has
email
lists, and the forums have interfaces that suck in different ways.  Neither
forum
is indexed by Google et al, so you have to rely on search tools provided by
the
forum software

Lists have some important advantages.  You quickly scan messages for a
half-dozen
lists in one application and generate responses with minimal effort.   Many
lists
have archives that can be searched using web engines.  Wtih email you can
save
messages and search them with your own tools.

In my experience, younger users who started their careers using GUI's tend
to prefer forums, avoid command-line tools, and post screen captures
rather than past text from a terminal or log file.   As a guy who found
CRT terminals a huge advance over teletype terminals and punched cards,
maybe I've never fully adapted to GUI environments, but I'm much happier
with GUI tools than many users who started with GUI's are with command-line
tools.

As users of FOSS, there is an obligation to pay back by helping others, and
especially new adopters.   My feeling is that the majority of new adopters
are
more likely to use forums than email lists.   Forums, however, are far from
standardized, so there is a danger of balkanization if users have to learn
a different forum interface for each distro.

Finally, my impression is that hosting forums needs more resources than
hosting email lists.  Unless the cost of hosting a forum is trivial, you
have
to consider other potential uses for the resoures.


> [...]


-- 
George N. White III
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Joe Zeff]

On 10/21/2018 05:48 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

The forums only work if you only subscribe to ONE forum and make
it your browser's home page.


I'm subscribed to three support forums that I check pretty much daily 
and none of them are my browser's home page.  You may need that constant 
reminder, but most of us don't.

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[ToddAndMargo via users]

On 10/20/18 3:57 PM, Fulko Hew wrote:



On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:35 PM Mike Wright > wrote:


On 10/20/18 3:17 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
 > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:42:20 -0700
 > stan wrote:
 >
 >> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
 >> list feel about that.
 >
 > There is already a fedoraforum which I don't use at all because
 > I despise forums because they are nothing like as useful as
mailing lists.

+1000


I just looked at the Discourse 'demo' site (not the aforementioned 
fedoraforum).

Its not for me either.

+1000


Ya, what both of them said and some more!
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[ToddAndMargo via users]

On 10/20/18 3:17 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:42:20 -0700
stan wrote:


I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
list feel about that.


There is already a fedoraforum which I don't use at all because
I despise forums because they are nothing like as useful as mailing lists.


I am signed up for a number of, both professional and personal.  I
never check them.  If the eMail when a reply is off or not functioning,
I never know when someone has replied.  I basically only ask questions,
but never look to see if I can answer a question because they
are so annoying.

With my numerous mailing lists, I can see when something is newly
posted very easily.  And answer if I can help.  It also build
a sense of community the forums do not have.  I start to recognize
names and sometimes chat off line.

The forums only work if you only subscribe to ONE forum and make
it your browser's home page.

The ONLY benefit to a forum is that it cuts down on the hate
posts from trolls.  But, this mailing list handles that quite
nicely, so not an issue.

Younger generation?  Since when does a Linux user use a tablet
to post a question?  Be nice if Fedora ran on tablets but it
doesn't unless you are a YUGE super user.

A forum is a REALLY bad idea.  Usenet is even better, although
you have to work to get your kill file adjusted for each
group due to the hate trolls.

my 2 cents







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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Marcel J.E. Mol]

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:20:14PM -0600, Peter Reed wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Short answer: no.
> 
> Longer answer:
> I have been using the Fedora mailing lists since Fedora Core 2. I have
> spent time setting up mail programs to sort all incoming email lists
> into nice, neat categories that are easy to read through. They don't
> need a damn browser that has become a bloated catchall do-all tool for
> everything under the sun.
> Nothing is stored locally with Discourse so,
> you have to be online to do everything. I can't read anything on
> Discourse offline at my leisure. The confused, incongruous threads are
> difficult to read without having to scroll up and down constantly. With
> a mailing list, everything that is pertinent is right there before you
> to peruse easily and quickly.

Totally agree, also think about needing to scroll left and right on wide
messages.
Most forums are bloated with avatars and useless information about the
author of a post. And what about the signaturesm often with useless
advertisements or 'nice' images. (and off coarse the adds added by the forum
software intself.)
The information density on forum pages is usually quite low


-Marcel



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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Joe Zeff]

On 10/21/2018 03:25 PM, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:


Haven't found who wrote the code for the site, yet - but whoever did
it: compliments: Minimal js - Signing in with, IIRC, a google account,
FB etc. seems being no effort ...


They're using the Askbot code from askbot.org.  It keeps all of the 
answers and comments on a question together with the original question, 
and the comments are connected either to the original question or the 
answer they're related to.  The karma system helps give you an idea how 
active and helpful the contributors are, as do the badges, although some 
of them aren't well thought out.  (Why you should get a silver badge for 
answering a new question during the first 48 hours it's up I don't 
understand.)  Yes, I've been a member for about six years and the fact 
that I'm still active both there and here should tell you something.

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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Samuel Sieb]

On 10/21/18 2:25 PM, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 01:05:57PM -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:


https://ask.fedoraproject.org/


Wow - looks good. Signed up, and in. Thanks .. :)

Haven't found who wrote the code for the site, yet - but whoever did
it: compliments: Minimal js - Signing in with, IIRC, a google account,
FB etc. seems being no effort ...


There's a link at the bottom:
http://askbot.com/
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 01:05:57PM -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:


https://ask.fedoraproject.org/


Wow - looks good. Signed up, and in. Thanks .. :)

Haven't found who wrote the code for the site, yet - but whoever did
it: compliments: Minimal js - Signing in with, IIRC, a google account,
FB etc. seems being no effort ...

I already knew the site, but somehow never realized it was actually
providing the option for asking or answering questions ...

Again: Thanks!

Wolfgang
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Samuel Sieb]

On 10/21/18 11:58 AM, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:21:16AM -0700, stan wrote:

It's not surprising that those on the mailing list are so opposed to a
web forum; we have all self selected as preferring email lists.  As
you say, a web forum would let those who prefer web forums have their
preference.  We won't know how viable that is without trying it; are
there lots of people who are not participating because they don't have
access to a web forum?


No official Fedora forum, it seems, but nonetheless:


https://ask.fedoraproject.org/
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Beartooth]

On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 11:21:16 -0700, stan wrote:
[] 
> It's not surprising that those on the mailing list are so opposed to a
> web forum; we have all self selected as preferring email lists.  As you
> say, a web forum would let those who prefer web forums have their
> preference.  We won't know how viable that is without trying it; are
> there lots of people who are not participating because they don't have
> access to a web forum?

Not all of us. I don't know why no one has yet mentioned Gmane, 
unless maybe some think of it as a Web app. (There is a Web interface, or 
so I understand. Those who actually like Web mail can try it.)

Gmane is a wonderful help to those of us who need busy lists but 
to whom many posts are irrelevant or over our heads. My newsreader (Pan) 
is a sine qua non for finding what concerns me, skimming what doesn't, 
and doing many other useful things.

And afaik Gmane works with lists but not web forums.
-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Not Quite Clueless Power User
Remember I know little (precious little!) of where up is.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:21:16AM -0700, stan wrote:


It's not surprising that those on the mailing list are so opposed to a
web forum; we have all self selected as preferring email lists.  As
you say, a web forum would let those who prefer web forums have their
preference.  We won't know how viable that is without trying it; are
there lots of people who are not participating because they don't have
access to a web forum?


No official Fedora forum, it seems, but nonetheless:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fedora/
And it seems to be very active.

Wolfgang
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[stan]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 19:52:20 -0400
Todd Zullinger  wrote:

> But that said, I don't see any reason why there could not be
> a users forum and an email list co-existing.  Clearly, some
> people prefer forums while other prefer email.  Helping
> users of Fedora in whatever format they prefer seems
> reasonable.
> 
> Both IRC and the mailing list happily co-exist today.  Some
> folks are in one or the other, some spend time in both.  A
> user-support forum would be similar. If that makes support
> available to people who aren't well-served by IRC or mailing
> lists, it's probably a good thing.

This makes sense.  Though a couple of drawbacks are that it fragments
support of users, and spreads infrastructure support thinner than it
already is.

It's not surprising that those on the mailing list are so opposed to a
web forum; we have all self selected as preferring email lists.  As
you say, a web forum would let those who prefer web forums have their
preference.  We won't know how viable that is without trying it; are
there lots of people who are not participating because they don't have
access to a web forum?
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Peter Reed]

Hello,

Short answer: no.

Longer answer:
I have been using the Fedora mailing lists since Fedora Core 2. I have
spent time setting up mail programs to sort all incoming email lists
into nice, neat categories that are easy to read through. They don't
need a damn browser that has become a bloated catchall do-all tool for
everything under the sun.
Nothing is stored locally with Discourse so,
you have to be online to do everything. I can't read anything on
Discourse offline at my leisure. The confused, incongruous threads are
difficult to read without having to scroll up and down constantly. With
a mailing list, everything that is pertinent is right there before you
to peruse easily and quickly.

Peter
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 10/20/18 11:42 PM, stan wrote:

Hi,
There's a big mail thread on fedora-devel about using a web forum
software called Discourse instead of mailing lists.  The idea is that
it would invigorate the Fedora community by encouraging younger people
raised on social media and mobile platforms to contribute.  One of the
targets they have mentioned is the user list, because of its nature of
short term question and answer topics. There has been push-back by
developers because they have their custom solutions all working great
around email lists for doing their work.

I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
list feel about that.  Which would you prefer?Mailing lists. I'll likely stop contributing to Fedora if this step 

takes effect.


 Unfortunately, it's an
either / or proposal, because there is no interface in Discourse for
emails from an email list to be put in their forums, though they do
have email notification for new web messages.  Would you willingly or
reluctantly migrate to the new platform?
No. IMO, any such forums can not replace mailing lists unless they have 
an email interface.


Ralf
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2018-10-21 at 11:15 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Sun, 2018-10-21 at 08:16 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > > Are you aware that is already the case for this mailing list?
> > > 
> > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/
> > 
> > That in my view is the perfect argument for not doing this. Hello Kitty
> > (srry, HyperKitty) is harder to use, has a clunky interface
> > with huge amounts of wasted space, and is significantly less
> > functional.
> 
> Amusingly enough, I'd say similar things about Evolution as
> a long-time user of Mutt. ;)

No doubt, but the argument isn't about one MUA versus another, but
about the flexibility of MUAs versus the rigidity of web interfaces.

> I share your feelings about the list web interface, but I
> think that instead of being an argument against having such
> an interface, it's a sign that there are many types of users
> and the more power each of us has to interact with each
> other using our preferred tools, the better.  It's simply an
> argument against moving to any sort of one-size-fits-all
> software.

That's fine in itself, but my fear is that gradually the web version
starts taking precedence, e.g. by people adding "features", while over
time the list version becomes deprecated. Maybe I'm being paranoid but
this kind of thing creeps up on you and before you know it you're being
treated as a niche interest for old fogeys.

> > And apparently the current proposal doesn't even include this second-
> > rate option.
> 
> I think it's worth noting that there is no proposal.

Glad to hear it.

> It was
> simply a tangent in a discussion on the devel list (which
> was started to ask Gmail users to not send HTML mail to the
> list).

With which I concur of course.

poc
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Bob Goodwin]

.

Why is it that whenever they have something that works well Linux people 
want to change it?


This mailing list is an important feature of Fedora Linux. From my 
experience forums are a major step backward!


Bob

--
Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA
http://www.qrz.com/db/W2BOD
box10  FEDORA-27/64bit LINUX XFCE Fastmail POP3
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 06:35:35AM +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 10/21/18 5:42 AM, stan wrote:

I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
list feel about that.


I would simply stop contributing.


+ 1000

Wolfgang
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Todd Zullinger]

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sun, 2018-10-21 at 08:16 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> Are you aware that is already the case for this mailing list?
>> 
>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/
> 
> That in my view is the perfect argument for not doing this. Hello Kitty
> (srry, HyperKitty) is harder to use, has a clunky interface
> with huge amounts of wasted space, and is significantly less
> functional.

Amusingly enough, I'd say similar things about Evolution as
a long-time user of Mutt. ;)

I share your feelings about the list web interface, but I
think that instead of being an argument against having such
an interface, it's a sign that there are many types of users
and the more power each of us has to interact with each
other using our preferred tools, the better.  It's simply an
argument against moving to any sort of one-size-fits-all
software.

> And apparently the current proposal doesn't even include this second-
> rate option.

I think it's worth noting that there is no proposal.  It was
simply a tangent in a discussion on the devel list (which
was started to ask Gmail users to not send HTML mail to the
list).

-- 
Todd
~~
Ninety percent of everything is crap.
-- Sturgeon's Law



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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Tim via users]

On Sat, 2018-10-20 at 14:42 -0700, stan wrote:
> There's a big mail thread on fedora-devel about using a web forum
> software called Discourse instead of mailing lists.

I won't use them, at all.  I don't participate in any of them.  I've
looked at some when googling for answers, hated every one of them.  And
you're going to find a lot of that - unknown viewers who don't
contribute.

I participate in several mailing lists.  All my messages come to me,
I don't have to login to several sites to do what I do.  Forums are
massively inconvenient.

I see forums full of the same questions, so they don't change that
aspect of mailing lists (people asking the same things, instead of
checking first).

The few answers I see on forums are often crap, uttered by the barely
knowledgable, holding the wrong end of the stick.  Want examples, look
at the Ubuntu ones.

Webforums are an even bigger mess of quoting crap.

The separation of topics means a lot of clicking through to see what's
going on, as opposed to scrolling through one message list.

Webmasters like to keep changing how they work, so they're continually
being inconsistent, but nearly always inadequate.

There's usually more interface than content.

The interfaces are often diabolical for anybody with eyesight problems.

Browser incompatibilities...

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 4.16.11-100.fc26.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue May 22 20:02:12 UTC 2018 x86_64

Boilerplate:  All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
There is no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see
the messages posted to the mailing list.

A positive attitude is worth the effort if it annoys enough people.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Joakim Forøysund]

I was unfamiliar with mailing lists until I joined Fedora. I used to think
it’s old fashioned until I registered. Mailing lists indeed have their
strengths above forums. With mailing lists I scroll through all topics. I
second what’s already said about not visiting forums. There are plenty of
forums I’m registered to but not visiting even if I actually intend to.

Stick with the mailing list, is my opinion.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Sam Varshavchik]

Tom Horsley writes:


On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:42:20 -0700
stan wrote:

> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> list feel about that.

There is already a fedoraforum which I don't use at all because
I despise forums because they are nothing like as useful as mailing lists.


I was about to post pretty much an identical, word-for-word, statement.

My vote is to keep the mailing list. I despise forums.



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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2018-10-21 at 08:16 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 10/21/18 7:52 AM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> > But that said, I don't see any reason why there could not be
> > a users forum and an email list co-existing.
> 
> Are you aware that is already the case for this mailing list?
> 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/

That in my view is the perfect argument for not doing this. Hello Kitty
(srry, HyperKitty) is harder to use, has a clunky interface
with huge amounts of wasted space, and is significantly less
functional. e.g. try searching for something: there's only one kind of
search, it takes a long time and you get under a dozen results per page
with a row of buttons at the bottom. Searching the list in Evolution is
almost instantaneous and I can discriminate between sender, date,
subject etc. and get all the results in a scrollable list. 

And apparently the current proposal doesn't even include this second-
rate option.

poc


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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[ja]

On Sat, 2018-10-20 at 18:59 -0400, Stephen Perkins wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:56 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
> > 
> > On 10/21/18 5:42 AM, stan wrote:
> > > I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> > > list feel about that.
> > 
> > I would simply stop contributing.
> > 
> 
>  And that is why I would be leaving.  Your contributions have helped
> me, many times, and I would miss that.  I don't post much,but I read
> and read and read.  I seldom go to forums, especially when there is a
> list like this with so many knowledgeable contributors.
> > ___
> > 

+1


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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Paul Allen Newell]

On 10/20/18 9:03 PM, Cameron Simpson wrote:

On 20Oct2018 18:55, Stephen Perkins  wrote:
On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:01 PM stan  
wrote:

Would you willingly or
reluctantly migrate to the new platform?


Neither.  If this list disappears, I will too.


Likewise.


And another likewise
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Cameron Simpson]

On 20Oct2018 18:55, Stephen Perkins  wrote:

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:01 PM stan  wrote:
Would you willingly or
reluctantly migrate to the new platform?


Neither.  If this list disappears, I will too.


Likewise.

Unless the forum provides a bidirectional gateway with the existing 
mailing list, I shall not participate.


Email comes to me, asynchronously. Forums I need to visit, a massive 
PITA. I can reply to email when offline, and it will go out later, too.


Email is read and composed with my preferred tools, which need not be 
the same as the tools of others.


Forums provide a fixed, and IMO, usually poor web based interface with 
suboptimal coposition tools (the web form, or occasionally some ghastly 
WYSYWIG rich text editor) with no options for people to pick their own.


Forums promote the context free reply, and the top post. Both of which 
are of low value.


I lurk and participate in hundreds of lists via email, using a single 
set of tools which run locally with local data, and suit me. Other 
participants can use their own choices as well. Web forums are variable 
in interface, but one size fits all per forum, and generally a PITA 
regardless in my experience.


Cheers,
Cameron Simpson 
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Ed Greshko]

On 10/21/18 8:40 AM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Ed Greshko wrote:
>> On 10/21/18 7:52 AM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
>>> But that said, I don't see any reason why there could not be
>>> a users forum and an email list co-existing.
>> Are you aware that is already the case for this mailing list?
>>
>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/
> Yeah, I'm aware of the web interface to the list*.  I'm sure
> some folks aren't, so it's a handy reminder.
>
> I'm not sure I'd call that a forum though, not in the same
> way that Discourse is according to the discussions here and
> on the devel list.  But maybe that's splitting hairs. ;)
>
> * There are some bugs in the web interface which are fixed
>   upstream and not yet deployed to the Fedora instance.  One
>   of those is the lack of attribution when replying, giving
>   the impression that the person replying has misattributed
>   any quoted content.  I'd love to see that patch applied to
>   the Fedora instance (or have the Fedora instance updated
>   to the latest stable release).  But I know that the Fedora
>   Infrastructure team is always quite busy and the number of
>   users of the web interface may not justify much time
>   spent.

OK.

I would reiterate that should this avenue of help for users be limited to a 
totally web
based interface I would cease to participate.


-- 
Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell them, 
tell them,
then tell them what you told them."
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Todd Zullinger]

Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 10/21/18 7:52 AM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
>> But that said, I don't see any reason why there could not be
>> a users forum and an email list co-existing.
> 
> Are you aware that is already the case for this mailing list?
> 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/

Yeah, I'm aware of the web interface to the list*.  I'm sure
some folks aren't, so it's a handy reminder.

I'm not sure I'd call that a forum though, not in the same
way that Discourse is according to the discussions here and
on the devel list.  But maybe that's splitting hairs. ;)

* There are some bugs in the web interface which are fixed
  upstream and not yet deployed to the Fedora instance.  One
  of those is the lack of attribution when replying, giving
  the impression that the person replying has misattributed
  any quoted content.  I'd love to see that patch applied to
  the Fedora instance (or have the Fedora instance updated
  to the latest stable release).  But I know that the Fedora
  Infrastructure team is always quite busy and the number of
  users of the web interface may not justify much time
  spent.

[And once again, reading the quote in my sig, I see that the
randomness of the fortune program may appear deliberate.
It's not. :)]

-- 
Todd
~~
Cluelessness: There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of
inquisitive idiots.
-- Demotivators Poster



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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Ed Greshko]

On 10/21/18 7:52 AM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> But that said, I don't see any reason why there could not be
> a users forum and an email list co-existing.

Are you aware that is already the case for this mailing list?

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/

-- 
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tell them,
then tell them what you told them."
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Todd Zullinger]

Leander Hutton wrote:
> Discourse, Discord or Slack are what everyone seem to be clustering
> around these days. The main thing I like about mailing lists and even to
> some extent IRC is it's a bit more decentralized and is easily locally
> archived. They're also built around a standard or protocol instead of an
> individual product so it's fairly easy to migrate data from one
> machine/client/place/whatever to another.

Being standards-based is a very good point, thanks for
making it!  Too many things are moving toward closed
protocols or one-off tools. (I know Discourse is open, it
just falls into the latter category.)

[The quote in my sig is random and not intended to be
related to this discussion, I swear. :)]

-- 
Todd
~~
A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
-- Douglas Adams



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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Todd Zullinger]

stan wrote:
> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use
> fedora-users mailing list feel about that.  Which would
> you prefer?

Forums have never been something I care for.  Anything which
forces its choice of interface upon me is something I don't
use joyfully.

But that said, I don't see any reason why there could not be
a users forum and an email list co-existing.  Clearly, some
people prefer forums while other prefer email.  Helping
users of Fedora in whatever format they prefer seems
reasonable.

Both IRC and the mailing list happily co-exist today.  Some
folks are in one or the other, some spend time in both.  A
user-support forum would be similar. If that makes support
available to people who aren't well-served by IRC or mailing
lists, it's probably a good thing.

The only reason it would be an either/or choice is if a
global decision was made to drop support for the Fedora
Mailman instance in favor of a Discourse instance.  That
doesn't seem likely for the near future, at this point.

> Unfortunately, it's an either / or proposal, because there
> is no interface in Discourse for emails from an email list
> to be put in their forums, though they do have email
> notification for new web messages.

Based on what I read as I followed the devel list thread,
there is a mailing-list mode in Discourse.  It's got a
number of issues at this point, but there is some attempt by
the Discourse folks to allow interacting with the forum via
email.

I still would be unlikely to use it because forums are
simply a different type of conversation.  In my experience,
forums discourage quoting and lead to conversations that
remind me of mailing lists with no standards.  They're like
being on lists where everyone top-posts.

(I generally avoid helping people who repeatedly top-post
here.  There are folks who continue to do so after being
asked numerous times to respect the list customs.)

> Would you willingly or reluctantly migrate to the new
> platform?

If this list were replaced with a forum, I'd simply free up
the time I spend here doing other things.  I have no
interest in using a forum and spending more time in some
browser-based interface.

-- 
Todd
~~
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.



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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Stephen Perkins]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:56 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
> On 10/21/18 5:42 AM, stan wrote:
> > I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> > list feel about that.
>
> I would simply stop contributing.
>
 And that is why I would be leaving.  Your contributions have helped
me, many times, and I would miss that.  I don't post much,but I read
and read and read.  I seldom go to forums, especially when there is a
list like this with so many knowledgeable contributors.
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-- 

Stephen E. Perkins, RN   Poetry and Community Health
RuralTechnologies.net  Linux since Red Hat 5.1, 1998
Open-source CollaborationFedora since 2003

“With credulity come propaganda and advertising to dupe the citizen
with political jobbery and compromises, and the lie reaches proportions
never known before in the history of the world.”
– C. G. Jung, The Undiscovered Self (1957)
--
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Fulko Hew]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:35 PM Mike Wright 
wrote:

> On 10/20/18 3:17 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
> > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:42:20 -0700
> > stan wrote:
> >
> >> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> >> list feel about that.
> >
> > There is already a fedoraforum which I don't use at all because
> > I despise forums because they are nothing like as useful as mailing
> lists.
>
> +1000
>

I just looked at the Discourse 'demo' site (not the aforementioned
fedoraforum).
Its not for me either.

+1000
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Stephen Perkins]

>On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:01 PM stan  wrote:
>Would you willingly or
> reluctantly migrate to the new platform?
>

Neither.  If this list disappears, I will too.

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-- 

Stephen E. Perkins, RN   Poetry and Community Health
RuralTechnologies.net  Linux since Red Hat 5.1, 1998
Open-source CollaborationFedora since 2003

“With credulity come propaganda and advertising to dupe the citizen
with political jobbery and compromises, and the lie reaches proportions
never known before in the history of the world.”
– C. G. Jung, The Undiscovered Self (1957)
--
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Ed Greshko]

On 10/21/18 5:42 AM, stan wrote:
> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> list feel about that.

I would simply stop contributing.

-- 
Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell them, 
tell them,
then tell them what you told them."
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[William Oliver]

This comes up occasionally on another list I belong to. The dynamic of
a forum and a mailinglist are very different, mostly because one is
push and one is pull.

With a forum, you have to *go* to the site, which means that folk who
are peripherally interested will just stop looking unless they have a
specific problem bad enough to go to the forum.  This means that you
will have fewer people on the forum, but they will be more committed.

Basically, you will lose readers such as myself.  I like to read the
comments on this list, but it's fairly low on my hierarchy of stuff to
read in the afternoons.  So... I scan the emails and see if there's a
title that I might find interesting.  Otherwise, I delete it without
reading.   I like to get the emails, but I don't read all the threads. 
If I had to make the effort to go to a forum, I'd do it rarely.

Some forum software provides a hybrid solution -- there's a web-based
forum UI, but a user can opt to have the comments pushed on email to
them, and can respond by email.  Thus, folk like me can still get the
"mailinglist experience" while others can do a forum thing.

billo


On Sat, 2018-10-20 at 18:17 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:42:20 -0700
> stan wrote:
> This 
> > I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> > list feel about that.
> 
> There is already a fedoraforum which I don't use at all because
> I despise forums because they are nothing like as useful as mailing
> lists.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Mike Wright]

On 10/20/18 3:17 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:42:20 -0700
stan wrote:


I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
list feel about that.


There is already a fedoraforum which I don't use at all because
I despise forums because they are nothing like as useful as mailing lists.


+1000
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Tom Horsley]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:42:20 -0700
stan wrote:

> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> list feel about that.

There is already a fedoraforum which I don't use at all because
I despise forums because they are nothing like as useful as mailing lists.
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Re: Replacing email list for users with a web forum software called Discourse, what's your opinion?

[Mark C. Allman]

On 10/20/18 5:42 PM, stan wrote:
> Hi,
> There's a big mail thread on fedora-devel about using a web forum
> software called Discourse instead of mailing lists.  The idea is that
> it would invigorate the Fedora community by encouraging younger people
> raised on social media and mobile platforms to contribute.  One of the
> targets they have mentioned is the user list, because of its nature of
> short term question and answer topics. There has been push-back by
> developers because they have their custom solutions all working great
> around email lists for doing their work.
>
> I'm wondering how the people who regularly use fedora-users mailing
> list feel about that.  Which would you prefer?  Unfortunately, it's an
> either / or proposal, because there is no interface in Discourse for
> emails from an email list to be put in their forums, though they do
> have email notification for new web messages.  Would you willingly or
> reluctantly migrate to the new platform?
>
> Here are a few links from that thread.
>
> https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
>
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
>
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/what-is-mailing-list-mode/46008/9
>
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/biggest-busiest-discourse-forums/30674
>
> In order to access discourse, because fedora is using the hosting
> provided by discourse, you will have to grant js access to
>
> http://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com
> ___

A few questions:

1. Still moderated, correct?  Look at
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-moderation-guide/63116.

2. Could we try it as a POC/pilot before committing to a switch-over?

Looks like the Android app hasn't been updated since December of last
year.  Reviews are mixed.

I say pilot it, including the moderation setup, workflows, etc., and see
how it fits.  Looks interesting from the outside.


*Mark C. Allman, PMP, CSM*
Founder, See How You Ski, www.seehowyouski.com 
Sr. Project Manager, Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.,
www.allmanpc.com 
617-947-4263, Twitter: @allmanpc
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