Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
2010/2/8 Valent Turkovic : > We have one laptop with Mobility Radeon HD 3430 integrated GPU using > radeon driver and also see constant kernel crashes but not even mouse > moves after crash, we just see black screen. We see these crashes > while using Firefox and flash, but not 100% sure if that is the issue. > For testing purposes you could install Flashblock-addon for Firefox or temporary disable flash plugin or simply start firefox in safe mode. > Is the crash in the log the same issue as others have? > > What is the solution? > > These crashed became more frequent after updates from one or two weeks > ago. Is there a way to revert problematic updates? Is there a way to > downgrade X, mesa and radeon driver? Respectfully -- Hiisi. Registered Linux User #487982. Be counted at: http://counter.li.org/ -- Spandex is a privilege, not a right. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
We have one laptop with Mobility Radeon HD 3430 integrated GPU using radeon driver and also see constant kernel crashes but not even mouse moves after crash, we just see black screen. We see these crashes while using Firefox and flash, but not 100% sure if that is the issue. Is the crash in the log the same issue as others have? What is the solution? These crashed became more frequent after updates from one or two weeks ago. Is there a way to revert problematic updates? Is there a way to downgrade X, mesa and radeon driver? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:34:33 -0500 Tom Horsley wrote: > ATI Technologies Inc RV410 [Radeon X700 Pro (PCIE)] > > This one seems to work perfectly with the default > installation (using KMS). Actually, I take back the part about it working perfectly. I never use any 3D apps on this thing, but since I was taking a survey of the state of my ATI cards, I tried running neverputt for the first time in ages on here. Bad mistake. It draws the initial window then my system completely freezes up. No disk, no network, screen frozen. Locked up solid. Nothing showed up in any log files, just a complete sudden death experience. So I guess it is just as well I don't need 3D for anything :-). -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:26:37 -0500 Mail Lists wrote: > Do you happen to know whether f12 will work with ATI mobility HD 5830 > which is in a bunch of laptops ? (I posted separately too - but since > you seem to know about ATI thought I'd ask directly. I only know about the ones I have and I don't have any laptop systems. Since the behavior seems pretty random from card to card, I couldn't guess :-(. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On 02/06/2010 09:34 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: > Just collected all the data on all the systems I use > with ATI cards, and the results are (mostly) not pretty: > > Fedora 12 systems with ATI cards: Do you happen to know whether f12 will work with ATI mobility HD 5830 which is in a bunch of laptops ? (I posted separately too - but since you seem to know about ATI thought I'd ask directly. thanks gene -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Just collected all the data on all the systems I use with ATI cards, and the results are (mostly) not pretty: Fedora 12 systems with ATI cards: ATI Technologies Inc RV410 [Radeon X700 Pro (PCIE)] This one seems to work perfectly with the default installation (using KMS). This is the only ATI card in any of my systems that has no problems. (Fortunately this happens to be my "main" home system so it is good that this one works so well). ATI Technologies Inc Radeon R100 QD [Radeon 7200] This is a true antique, an original Radeon All-In-Wonder card. The driver cannot do KMS on this so I get UMS even without putting the nomodeset option on the kernel command line. It sorta works, but lots of things render in a completely unreadable fashion. See: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=522970 ATI Technologies Inc RV610 video device [Radeon HD 2400 PRO] This is (unfortunately), my desktop at work. It crashed constantly until I started experimenting and finally discovered that I could switch to the radeonhd driver, turn off KMS, disable most driver acceleration, and finally get the system to work all the time (it hasn't crashed for a week or more since I made those changes). See: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=541387 And one ubuntu 9.10 system: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200] (rev 01) This is just a test machine, but when I installed with the defaults, background images wouldn't appear. Turning off all fancy screen effects modes finally made it work a bit better, but still little things often don't render correctly (buttons will be missing edges or not there at all, etc). I saw other reports of the same problems with the 9200 in the ubuntu forums. The most noticeable thing about all these cards is that older versions of linux have at one time or another all worked flawlessly with these cards. Where "flawless" means 2D plus 3D at least good enough to play non-demanding games like neverputt (maybe not demanding, but still hopeless with software rending). There have been ups and downs (the 7200 in particular stopped working completely for a while, and has only come back to function at all in the latest X), but the trend is unfortunately distinctly down at the moment. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Saturday 06 February 2010 01:39 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 13:26:12 -0800, >Suvayu Ali wrote: >> >> A bit OT, but what is the difference/pros-cons between User Mode and >> Kernel Mode Setting? Can anyone refer me to some _not too technical_ >> resource? > > User mode is the old way of doing things. The only reason to want to use it > is when there is a problem with kernel mode. Eventually user mode support > is going to go away upstream, but probably not for a couple of years. > > The fedora feature page > (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KernelModesetting) lists the > following benefits: > * Improved Graphical Boot > * Faster fast user switching > * Seamless X server switching > * Graphical panic messages > > Also KMS is a prerequestite for being able to run X not as root. That is still > a long ways out, but should eventually happen. Thanks Bruno for the explanation. On a bit more searching I found this, " ... One other audience member asked about running X without root privileges: that does work now, and Moblin is doing it. There are some problems remaining, though, especially with fast user switching. In the absence of a revoke() system call, there's no way to guarantee that one user isn't listening in on another. Since revoke() is known to be a hard problem, it's not clear how this issue will be resolved."[1] That seems quite interesting. ;) [1]http://lwn.net/Articles/371276/ -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 13:26:12 -0800, Suvayu Ali wrote: > > A bit OT, but what is the difference/pros-cons between User Mode and > Kernel Mode Setting? Can anyone refer me to some _not too technical_ > resource? User mode is the old way of doing things. The only reason to want to use it is when there is a problem with kernel mode. Eventually user mode support is going to go away upstream, but probably not for a couple of years. The fedora feature page (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KernelModesetting) lists the following benefits: * Improved Graphical Boot * Faster fast user switching * Seamless X server switching * Graphical panic messages Also KMS is a prerequestite for being able to run X not as root. That is still a long ways out, but should eventually happen. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Saturday 06 February 2010 10:51 AM, Brian Mury wrote: > On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 16:02 +, Terry Barnaby wrote: >> I have machines with: ATI RV280, ATI RV535, ATI X300, Intel 945G and some >> others. All of these have issues with F12, mainly with 3D but both the >> ATI RV280 and ATI X300 cause occasional system lockup's requiring a >> reboot in 2D and also kernel panics. > > Terry, are you using UMS or KMS? I have stability issues with UMS. KMS > seems much better stability wise (performance wise is the other way > around). A bit OT, but what is the difference/pros-cons between User Mode and Kernel Mode Setting? Can anyone refer me to some _not too technical_ resource? -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On 02/06/2010 06:51 PM, Brian Mury wrote: > On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 16:02 +, Terry Barnaby wrote: >> I have machines with: ATI RV280, ATI RV535, ATI X300, Intel 945G and some >> others. All of these have issues with F12, mainly with 3D but both the >> ATI RV280 and ATI X300 cause occasional system lockup's requiring a >> reboot in 2D and also kernel panics. > > Terry, are you using UMS or KMS? I have stability issues with UMS. KMS > seems much better stability wise (performance wise is the other way > around). Most of the systems I'm using UMS as otherwise 3D doesn't work or there are some other problems. I think one of them is running KMS as that works a bit better on that system with what I or the other users do. It's all a bit hit and miss as to what applications works best with what settings. > >> There are also graphics artefacts occasionally. > > I'm curious what type of artifacts you see, and when/where you see them. > I get artifacts only in Google Earth (running it with software rendering > solves it, but is much too slow to use). Card is rv280. > > Brian > > On the ATI X300 system sometimes text is written in blue rather than black. Some square areas when repainted seem to have a horizontal tearing as if a bit-blt had the wrong xstep value. One of the others seems to not repaint square areas occasionally. 3D rendering is variable especially on the performance side. In general, as far as I am concerned, although ATI graphics works to a degree its all a bit shaky and quite dependent of the specific chipset, card and applications you use. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 16:02 +, Terry Barnaby wrote: > I have machines with: ATI RV280, ATI RV535, ATI X300, Intel 945G and some > others. All of these have issues with F12, mainly with 3D but both the > ATI RV280 and ATI X300 cause occasional system lockup's requiring a > reboot in 2D and also kernel panics. Terry, are you using UMS or KMS? I have stability issues with UMS. KMS seems much better stability wise (performance wise is the other way around). > There are also graphics artefacts occasionally. I'm curious what type of artifacts you see, and when/where you see them. I get artifacts only in Google Earth (running it with software rendering solves it, but is much too slow to use). Card is rv280. Brian -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 12:37 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > I have a "ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] (rev 01)" and I'm > running F12 with KMS enabled, 2D works perfectly, 3D is sometimes a bit > "stuttery" (i.e. it freezes on a frame for a small fraction of a second, not > enough to be seen as an outright freeze, but enough to be seen as frame > jumping), but otherwise it just works. It did have several issues (crashes, > assertion failures) on F11, and there was one assertion failure in Extreme > Tux Racer in the F12 release, but that got fixed in the updates. (But it's > true F10 was best. The drivers got refactored to work with the latest X11 > driver technologies and there were some regressions in the process.) I see the same stuttery 3D you do with KMS (it is much smoother with UMS on those occasions that the computer doesn't lock up). Tux Racer either crashes miserably (and leaves my desktop in 800x600!), or runs at what looks like a frame every couple seconds or so. 2D is useable for stuff like email and word processing, though it will sometimes (not always) lag a bit when moving or switching windows, etc. It does not work well when watching videos, or browsing the web (depending on content). Most of these problems will go away if I boot with UMS, but that has stability problems, especially with 3D. Flash seems to be particularly bad. This is easily seen by playing YouTube videos. With UMS it works well enough. Hi def can sometimes be a problem, but fullscreen works well. With KMS, even a low def, non-full screen video doesn't play well - it will start to drop frames to the extent that I often have frozen video for several seconds at a time (the audio continues to play smoothly). My CPU will usage will be 100% during this time (it is much lower with UMS). Perhaps a faster processor would make a difference (this is an Athlon XP 3200+), though that would be masking the problem. I'm wondering how well YouTube videos work for you (try different resolutions, full screen, etc). I'm also curious if you see a difference between KMS and UMS, especially in CPU usage. > Now if you're expecting a performance beast, perhaps you're expecting too > much from a Radeon 9200? (FYI, even current Intel integrated chipsets > (GM965) perform better.) I'm aware that this is not a fast card. I'm not running anything that is terribly demanding. The card is plenty fast enough to handle things like video and Google Earth - indeed, as I said before, it *used to* handle these tasks perfectly with previous Fedora releases - and still does in UMS when it doesn't crash. Right now I have to choose between performance or stability. Brian -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On 02/06/2010 11:37 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Brian Mury wrote: >> I disagree. As I posted earlier in this thread, my 9200 (rv280) does >> *not* work with the current drivers. Booting with KMS I get 2D and 3D >> that are both so slow they are unusable for many tasks (even watching a >> low resolution video pins the CPU and drops more frames than it plays). >> Booting with UMS I get good speed, but random X crashes - and 3D will >> almost always completely freeze the computer. I end up having to reboot >> just so I can, say, run Google Earth for a couple minutes, then reboot >> again to continue with what I was doing before. > > I have a "ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] (rev 01)" and I'm > running F12 with KMS enabled, 2D works perfectly, 3D is sometimes a bit > "stuttery" (i.e. it freezes on a frame for a small fraction of a second, not > enough to be seen as an outright freeze, but enough to be seen as frame > jumping), but otherwise it just works. It did have several issues (crashes, > assertion failures) on F11, and there was one assertion failure in Extreme > Tux Racer in the F12 release, but that got fixed in the updates. (But it's > true F10 was best. The drivers got refactored to work with the latest X11 > driver technologies and there were some regressions in the process.) > > Now if you're expecting a performance beast, perhaps you're expecting too > much from a Radeon 9200? (FYI, even current Intel integrated chipsets > (GM965) perform better.) > > Kevin Kofler > I have machines with: ATI RV280, ATI RV535, ATI X300, Intel 945G and some others. All of these have issues with F12, mainly with 3D but both the ATI RV280 and ATI X300 cause occasional system lockup's requiring a reboot in 2D and also kernel panics. There are also graphics artefacts occasionally. Although they all work to some extent, and the systems can be used, they are not in my mind stable or fully supported. To get the multitude of different Graphics cards working well a good testing regime with good feedback is required with stable organised development. Fedora/Linux doesn't seem to have this in the graphics area (please correct me if I'm wrong). Unless resource with a focus on getting the graphics issues sorted is provided, I really can't see things improving. It certainly hasn't improved much over the the past 5 years or more. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Brian Mury wrote: > I disagree. As I posted earlier in this thread, my 9200 (rv280) does > *not* work with the current drivers. Booting with KMS I get 2D and 3D > that are both so slow they are unusable for many tasks (even watching a > low resolution video pins the CPU and drops more frames than it plays). > Booting with UMS I get good speed, but random X crashes - and 3D will > almost always completely freeze the computer. I end up having to reboot > just so I can, say, run Google Earth for a couple minutes, then reboot > again to continue with what I was doing before. I have a "ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] (rev 01)" and I'm running F12 with KMS enabled, 2D works perfectly, 3D is sometimes a bit "stuttery" (i.e. it freezes on a frame for a small fraction of a second, not enough to be seen as an outright freeze, but enough to be seen as frame jumping), but otherwise it just works. It did have several issues (crashes, assertion failures) on F11, and there was one assertion failure in Extreme Tux Racer in the F12 release, but that got fixed in the updates. (But it's true F10 was best. The drivers got refactored to work with the latest X11 driver technologies and there were some regressions in the process.) Now if you're expecting a performance beast, perhaps you're expecting too much from a Radeon 9200? (FYI, even current Intel integrated chipsets (GM965) perform better.) Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 01:13 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Nobody asked YOU. It was a question directed specifically to me (and I > wouldn't recommend a card which requires proprietary drivers). Kevin, on a public list, others are allowed and encouraged to chime in with their opinions! > FWIW, these days the Free drivers have full support for all the Radeons up > to HD 4xxx (r7xx), on any interface: PCI-Express, AGP, PCI. I disagree. As I posted earlier in this thread, my 9200 (rv280) does *not* work with the current drivers. Booting with KMS I get 2D and 3D that are both so slow they are unusable for many tasks (even watching a low resolution video pins the CPU and drops more frames than it plays). Booting with UMS I get good speed, but random X crashes - and 3D will almost always completely freeze the computer. I end up having to reboot just so I can, say, run Google Earth for a couple minutes, then reboot again to continue with what I was doing before. I don't call that "full support". I call that "totally broken". The really sad part is that this card used to work great for both 2D and 3D. It has gotten progressively worse over the last few Fedora releases. I look forward to the day I can actually use my computer for the things I would like to use it for (and used to use it for) - but frankly I'm not holding my breath. While I would love to see a working OSS driver for my card, I would happily settle for a proprietary one. OSS is nice but having my computer work properly trumps that. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Robin Laing wrote: > I will recommend the nVidia. Their site states that they support the > FX58000. Nobody asked YOU. It was a question directed specifically to me (and I wouldn't recommend a card which requires proprietary drivers). > Now there is a problem here. It is the card interface. I have gone > through this twice in the past. Needing faster 3D and looking at video > cards. I couldn't get a card to fit my motherboard. I needed to > upgrade from PCI to AGP. I had to get a new computer. This was due to > dropping of support for my ATI card. The cards we were talking about are all PCI-Express cards (both the new ones and the older ones which actually have working Free drivers). For older computers, there are also AGP and PCI versions of the same cards (but these days they're actually more expensive). > The new computer had AGP support. I purchased an ATI with it. I went > home and fought for two months trying to get the 3D working using the > ATI drivers. No joy. Which drivers? The proprietary driver? Have you tried the Free one? Depending on what card you picked and when, it might just have worked. Radeon 7xxx and 9xxx series (r1xx and r2xx chips) have been supported for years! And AGP as an interface was definitely supported, too. FWIW, these days the Free drivers have full support for all the Radeons up to HD 4xxx (r7xx), on any interface: PCI-Express, AGP, PCI. > On a whim one day, I decided to try an nVidia card that was on sale. In > less than 30 minutes of paying for the card, I had beautiful running 3D on > my Linux box. This included all the downloads and reading the readme. No > RPM here. You used the script directly from NVidia? Yuck!!! I hope you enjoyed it overwriting your system libraries. (By the way, this may also break because Fedora often updates Mesa and so you can end up with the overwritten libGL being replaced by the one from the Mesa update. The proper solution is to install the libGL to a different directory and to override the search path as the RPMs on RPM Fusion do.) See: http://rpmfusion.org/RPMFusionSwitcher > I have a Dell computer with Intel video and guess what. It doesn't work > for 3D in Linux. I searched and no joy on a fix as it was a known > support issue. Found a old nVidia and all is well. What model computer? What's the exact model of the video card? When have you last tried the Intel driver? The issue you found may already be fixed. (Try throwing out the NVidia card and see what happens. Though if you let the driver overwrite your system libraries, it might not work just because of that…) > I do believe in support for OSS but there are times where you have to > have a working system over using OSS. This discussion about the video > is just part of the bigger picture. My Free Software systems just work, too. > In general, most computer users just want their systems to work. My 13 > year old can install F12 on a laptop and manage it. I think that is > great. Of course, I chose nVidia over the Intel or ATI choices because > ATI and Intel didn't list support for the product options I was looking > at. nVidia did. They can list the exact supported products because they completely control the driver because it's proprietary. Those manufacturers who actually work with the community work on the upstream projects, and so different distributions ship different versions and thus it depends on the distribution whether a card works or not. But Fedora usually supports the most hardware with Free drivers as it is very up to date. And the place where you find out what hardware is supported by the latest Free drivers is once again the upstream project, not the manufacturer: http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/Status in particular: http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/ATIRadeon http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/Intel This is something you need to get used to as a GNU/Linux user: don't ask the manufacturer whether their card works under GNU/Linux, ask the projects actually responsible for the (Free) drivers. > My desktop at home was replaced one afternoon after the motherboard > died. I didn't have time to order on line or struggle with searching > for cheaper/older products to support OSS. I had to take what was on > the shelf and available before I walked out of the store. I ended up > with hardware that I wouldn't have purchased if I had time to review > product. But the nVidia card I chose, worked as expected. I'm sure you would have found an ATI card in the wide supported range if you had actually looked for it. > The developers must understand that the users want systems to do their > work with. This requires 3D and acceleration in this day and age. > People going to "Joe's Computer Store" down the street will purchase > pretty modern hardware. Do you really think the average user buys a EUR 500+ video card? If they do, they're just wasting their money. The EUR 20-30 cards they can get cover all their needs and
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Wed, Feb 03, 2010 at 13:58:14 -0700, Robin Laing wrote: > > I say support the company that supports their customers. I would prefer > OSS but that is not always the option. Just as using Linux all the time > instead of Windows isn't either. We are both sort of saying that, but we are expecting different kinds of support. I want documentation released so that my hardware will continue to be usable for a long time. (I use lots of hardware that you would probably consider obsolete.) > The developers must understand that the users want systems to do their > work with. This requires 3D and acceleration in this day and age. I also want 3d accelleration to work and hope that Fedora can find more resources to speed up some of the 3d development going on here. > People going to "Joe's Computer Store" down the street will purchase > pretty modern hardware. If they cannot install Linux, then we have lost > a user to Windows. I would rather see nVidia getting their money than > Microsoft. But that is me. A lot of those people shouldn't be using Fedora. Ubuntu is currently (and for the foreseeable future) a better linux distro for people that just want things to work. (Graphics might get better soon, but media is going to have problems for a long time due to software patents and the DCMA.) P.S. I want to mention one issue for the proprietary nVidia drivers that hasn't come up in this thread yet. They don't work (at least when I last tried this with the rpmfusion packages) on live spins. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On 02/01/2010 03:49 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 22:31:22 +, >Marko Vojinovic wrote: >> Suppose I am a newbie for computers, and I decided to buy the latest&greatest >> in available hardware (btw, this can make sense if you don't want your >> machine >> to be obsolete by tomorrow). So when I get to choose a graphics card for my >> new shiny desktop machine, which of the two do you recommend to work better >> in >> Fedora? >> >> (1) ATI Radeon HD 5970, or >> (2) nVidia Quadro FX 5800 > > (3) Don't buy either if you are planning on using 3d graphics in Fedora right > now. > (4) Buy a second inexpensive card for use in Fedora. Or reuse one of the many > cards you have sitting around after replacing your video card every year. > As a tongue in cheek comment, it is sort of funny. I know people that don't go two years without upgrading hardware. I will recommend the nVidia. Their site states that they support the FX58000. >> You are basically listing hardware that is either inferior in performance or >> is going to become obsolete in a year. > > Obsolete? Not for Fedora. Maybe for playing the latest Windows based games > or doing some sort of commercial rendering. > >> You are basically recommending that Fedora users buy inferior hardware, for > > And much cheaper hadrware. And possibly passively cooled hardware that is > quieter. (The 9200 was a really card for its time. It was inexpensive and > didn't need a separate fan.) Now there is a problem here. It is the card interface. I have gone through this twice in the past. Needing faster 3D and looking at video cards. I couldn't get a card to fit my motherboard. I needed to upgrade from PCI to AGP. I had to get a new computer. This was due to dropping of support for my ATI card. The new computer had AGP support. I purchased an ATI with it. I went home and fought for two months trying to get the 3D working using the ATI drivers. No joy. On a whim one day, I decided to try an nVidia card that was on sale. In less than 30 minutes of paying for the card, I had beautiful running 3D on my Linux box. This included all the downloads and reading the readme. No RPM here. I have a Dell computer with Intel video and guess what. It doesn't work for 3D in Linux. I searched and no joy on a fix as it was a known support issue. Found a old nVidia and all is well. I do believe in support for OSS but there are times where you have to have a working system over using OSS. This discussion about the video is just part of the bigger picture. In general, most computer users just want their systems to work. My 13 year old can install F12 on a laptop and manage it. I think that is great. Of course, I chose nVidia over the Intel or ATI choices because ATI and Intel didn't list support for the product options I was looking at. nVidia did. My desktop at home was replaced one afternoon after the motherboard died. I didn't have time to order on line or struggle with searching for cheaper/older products to support OSS. I had to take what was on the shelf and available before I walked out of the store. I ended up with hardware that I wouldn't have purchased if I had time to review product. But the nVidia card I chose, worked as expected. What is this saying? I have not had any issues to speak of with nVidia. I have had issues with both Intel and ATI. Both with old and new hardware. I say support the company that supports their customers. I would prefer OSS but that is not always the option. Just as using Linux all the time instead of Windows isn't either. The developers must understand that the users want systems to do their work with. This requires 3D and acceleration in this day and age. People going to "Joe's Computer Store" down the street will purchase pretty modern hardware. If they cannot install Linux, then we have lost a user to Windows. I would rather see nVidia getting their money than Microsoft. But that is me. Lets not forget that part of our goal is to get more and more people to use Linux as well as supporting OSS. This type of debate, though good for the more advance community isn't good for the new user that wants to play Tux Racer and watch You Tube videos. -- Robin Laing -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 16:13 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote: > NV does not feel that in the Linux market they would make more money, > sell more hardware, with Open Source drivers than they do with the > drivers they provide. They feel that the closed source drivers > suffice, and they provide those. It's not an unusual attitude with drives and Windows, either. We sold you a card with drivers, it worked (never mind how good or bad it worked), and we released a few updates, and we've abandoned that card for newer models. If you don't like it, buy another card. Rinse, lather, repeat. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 15:02:38 -0800, "Arne Chr. Jorgensen" wrote: > > My question: what on earth was so terrible wrong with the driver under F10 ? > What was the nature of that error ? The landscape for linux graphics drivers has been changing over the last couple of years. Fedora has been following that change and support for graphics cards that used to work suffered as part of that. There are still some big changes coming. So I expect things to still be rocky at times, but when things work they should be better than ever. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
hi, Been reading your dialogue regarding the subject. Having a laptop, HP 6715b, which became a *nightmare* under F10-x86_64. I have managed a lot of crappy stuff, but that was hell until the very end. A quick test of F11-686, F13-rawhide, and did install F12-x86_64, with some hesitation. I am surprised: - no flicker on screen, no lock up ( so far ), and it is running 10-25 degrees C cooler ! Fans have never been as silent ! My question: what on earth was so terrible wrong with the driver under F10 ? What was the nature of that error ? ( It did not run this nice under F11 or F13, while then I used 686. ) I am puzzled //ARNE -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Tim wrote: > Very easy to say, not so easy to do for some people. And even when you > have a few shops to visit, the same thing applies: > > They carry new cards, and only a few in stock. Ordering in as they > need. The don't sell old cards. You are going to get nowhere going to > a shop asking to buy a card made 18 months ago, because you need one > that old so you can have working drivers for it. The supported chipsets may be 18 months old, but the cards with them are still produced, as really cheap low-end cards with passive cooling. (Fedora 12 now supports the HD 2xxx/3xxx (r6xx) and HD 4xxx (r7xx) cards, see mesa- dri-drivers-experimental for 3D support.) Now to be fair I don't know how things are in Australia, but here in Austria (note to the geography- challenged readers: that's pretty much on the other side of the planet!) there are plenty of places selling them, several of which have stores in Vienna where I could just pick them up, no shipping. Is there really nothing older than the not-yet-supported HD 5xxx (r8xx) series being sold Down Under? Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Kevin Kofler wrote: > Marko Vojinovic wrote: >> AFAIK, nVidia is locked up in closed source licences and non-disclosure >> agreements, and that is the only reason why they don't provide specs and >> open source drivers. It appears nVidia has good will, but legal issues are >> a showstopper. > > That's bullshit. There are repeated public statements from NVidia that they > don't see any market or demand for "open source" (Free Software) drivers and > that therefore they don't care. Don't delude yourself! > You have totally confused supporting the Linux market with Open Source. The fact that you have taken an oath of whatever the software equivalent of celibacy is, and refuse to use anything you can't compile yourself is religion, not finance, and frankly many users have chosen the closed source working drivers to Open Source drivers which don't. NV does not feel that in the Linux market they would make more money, sell more hardware, with Open Source drivers than they do with the drivers they provide. They feel that the closed source drivers suffice, and they provide those. To claim that any support other than doing things your way "doesn't count" doesn't really contribute to user satisfaction. >> And the fact that they provide support next to none (of their closed >> source drivers) demonstrates that they *do* care about Linux market, and >> do take the community support seriously. > > I disagree. Providing proprietary drivers is NOT providing support to Free > Software or GNU/Linux. (In fact it's worse than doing nothing because some > people who would otherwise help the Nouveau project are content with using > the proprietary crap.) > Supporting Open Source is not the same thing as supporting Linux users. They are different approaches to selling hardware. -- Bill Davidsen "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Kevin Kofler wrote: > Kevin J. Cummings wrote: >> And what you are saying is that someone can't get support for the video >> card in his/her brand spanking new computer that they just bought at the >> computer storeassuming it has the latest and greatest video card >> from whatever manufacturer. Weird. > > "whatever manufacturer except Intel" whose desktop/laptop class GMA chips > (i.e. all except the GMA 500 / Poulsbo) all just work, even the current > latest one. > > But other than that, yes, we're saying that and it's not weird at all, it's > just how things are. Drivers don't magically appear instantly. > >> When I bought my laptop, I didn't worry about video. > > And that was your mistake. > >> It was all supposed to "just work". > > If you expect that, you need to check what hardware you're buying. > >> The good news is that now GoogleEarth runs with the stock radeon driver, >> but I can't tell you exactly when that happened because there was no big >> fanfare about it when it happened. > > Assuming it's an r5xx series card (it can't be r6xx or higher because you > said the Catalyst driver doesn't support it anymore), Fedora 9 updates / > Fedora 10. It was added in this update: > http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/package-announce/2008-July/011954.html > which says "adds r500 support" spelled out black on white in the update > notes. > > If it's an r3xx or r4xx, even earlier. Please tell us the exact model ID. > I give you a free suggestion, which developers will promptly shout down as "admitting our video support sucks," and that is to put a 2nd entry in grub.conf, label it stable graphics mode, and do whatever is needed to get the kernel to leave the video the hell alone and use vesa. I don't want to run 3D, or fancy graphics, or play games, I want to have working X, and not have it crash all the time, get kernel panics, or have to do boot time editing by hand to get X or run in runlevel 3. Current Linux video works better and better on fewer and fewer cards, and it's not just Fedora. Time to give the user an out. -- Bill Davidsen "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 22:31:22 +, > Marko Vojinovic wrote: >> Suppose I am a newbie for computers, and I decided to buy the >> latest&greatest >> in available hardware (btw, this can make sense if you don't want your >> machine >> to be obsolete by tomorrow). So when I get to choose a graphics card for my >> new shiny desktop machine, which of the two do you recommend to work better >> in >> Fedora? >> >> (1) ATI Radeon HD 5970, or >> (2) nVidia Quadro FX 5800 > > (3) Don't buy either if you are planning on using 3d graphics in Fedora right > now. > (4) Buy a second inexpensive card for use in Fedora. Or reuse one of the many > cards you have sitting around after replacing your video card every year. > Agree, buy a cheap totally unaccelerated card which you can run with the vesa driver. Video in Fedora will get better, or it will become so little used no one will care. When/if decent video support returns you can get a supported card. -- Bill Davidsen "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Brian Mury wrote: > On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 08:51 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> I don't have access to and r600 or r700 based cards. I have a rv280 at >> home and an rv530 at work and both do 3d currently. > > I also have an rv280 that I have been having problems with. I'm curious > if you are using kernel or user space mode setting, and what you have in > your xorg.conf (if anything). > > My experience is: > > KMS: 3D works but is slow, 2D is so slow it is unusable (can't even > watch a low-def youtube video, for example). > > UMS: 2D and 3D both work at expected speeds (XAA is a bit faster than > the default EXA), but 3D often completely locks up the computer - can't > even SSH to it. > Let me jump in here and say that it is worth learning to use the watchdog timer feature, it gives you a clean shutdown if there is even a glimmer of life left in the kernel. Even when the usual sysreq magic doesn't work. I have a program I can put on a site somewhere, but it's so simple you can probably write it as fast as a download, a few lines does the job. Works for me. -- Bill Davidsen "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 11:39 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Then you go to a different computer shop. Very easy to say, not so easy to do for some people. And even when you have a few shops to visit, the same thing applies: They carry new cards, and only a few in stock. Ordering in as they need. The don't sell old cards. You are going to get nowhere going to a shop asking to buy a card made 18 months ago, because you need one that old so you can have working drivers for it. And ordering over the internet is fraught with problems: You can't "try" the card, and returning a duff one is a right pain. You pay for delivery, you pay for return postage. And there's no trusting of ebaying for older cards - people knowingly sell duff crap, people have no damn idea about anti-static precautions... -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
2010/2/2 Kevin Kofler : > Tim wrote: >> A common problem is that from time to time someone will need to buy a >> new card (their old one failed, they're building a new computer), and >> sometimes the only choice you get is to buy a very recently released >> card. Â Some computer shops won't carry anything else, and won't have any >> old cards to sell you. > > Then you go to a different computer shop. ordering hardware online and comparing prices is usually cheaper anyways. kind regards, Rudolf Kastl > > Â Â Â Â Kevin Kofler > > -- > users mailing list > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe or change subscription options: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines > -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Kevin J. Cummings wrote: > 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc M56P [Radeon > Mobility X1600] Yeah, that's r5xx alright, support for it was added with the Fedora 9 update FEDORA-2008-5567 on July 2, 2008 as written in its update notes. Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Tim wrote: > A common problem is that from time to time someone will need to buy a > new card (their old one failed, they're building a new computer), and > sometimes the only choice you get is to buy a very recently released > card. Some computer shops won't carry anything else, and won't have any > old cards to sell you. Then you go to a different computer shop. Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
> What we need is to take a year, devise some test programs people > can run to check the actual behavior of video cards against the > individual bits of information described in the docs, then encourage > folks to run the tests and report all the flaws in the docs which > we could then ask ati to explain (but that is unlikely to happen, > it is just a fantasy I have :-). What would be interesting, at least for me, would be a write up from someone who knows on how Fedora/Linux graphics development is being done, how many are actively working on it, what testing is being done and what direction it is going and any significant mile stones that are coming up. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that the graphics development is very ad-hoc and relatively un-tested. As mentioned above and others supporting the huge number of various graphics boards is hard. No single developer or group of developers can hope to have even a good percentage of the available graphics cards/chipsets to test releases on. On workstations, after a stable kernel and core shared libraries I think the stability of the graphics systems comes next. Due to the stronger implementation of graphics within the kernel (DRM, KMS etc.) with F12 I am now getting kernel panics, due to graphics, on a number of my systems. I have not had the experience of kernel panics under Linux for many many years (except when developing drivers myself :) ), This is bad. I really think that to get useful Linux/Fedora graphics drivers a more organised development system with more organised testing needs to be implemented. Probably the best way to get the testing done is by using the Fedora community users as they have most of the Graphics cards. But, what we need is some organisation/group to be responsible for the graphics system in Fedora, provide a simple to use test system and a web based reporting system that normal users can easily use. This would list graphics cards/chips used and failed/good tests. This organisation should closely work with the upstream graphics development providing testing feedback, issues and promoting certain goals etc. I think this should be combined with a graphics-testing package repository so those users who are willing to contribute to the testing, can get the latest graphics related updates and test them easily. Above all every one working and/or testing this should be able to see that things are improving and going in the right direction and the results. A years push, by as many as possible, could see some real advances. Obviously this would take some resources, but considering the state of Graphics in Linux, I would have thought some commercial enterprises might help with some funding ? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 00:58 +0100, François Cami wrote: > The reason _I_ do not own anything more current is that I don't > need any faster card than the ones I have. A common problem is that from time to time someone will need to buy a new card (their old one failed, they're building a new computer), and sometimes the only choice you get is to buy a very recently released card. Some computer shops won't carry anything else, and won't have any old cards to sell you. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On 02/01/2010 10:51 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Assuming it's an r5xx series card (it can't be r6xx or higher because you > said the Catalyst driver doesn't support it anymore), Fedora 9 updates / > Fedora 10. It was added in this update: > http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/package-announce/2008-July/011954.html > which says "adds r500 support" spelled out black on white in the update > notes. > > If it's an r3xx or r4xx, even earlier. Please tell us the exact model ID. I've mentioned it many times before on this list. Its an: 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc M56P [Radeon Mobility X1600] > Kevin Kofler -- Kevin J. Cummings kjch...@rcn.com cummi...@kjchome.homeip.net cummi...@kjc386.framingham.ma.us Registered Linux User #1232 (http://counter.li.org) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Kevin J. Cummings wrote: > And what you are saying is that someone can't get support for the video > card in his/her brand spanking new computer that they just bought at the > computer storeassuming it has the latest and greatest video card > from whatever manufacturer. Weird. "whatever manufacturer except Intel" whose desktop/laptop class GMA chips (i.e. all except the GMA 500 / Poulsbo) all just work, even the current latest one. But other than that, yes, we're saying that and it's not weird at all, it's just how things are. Drivers don't magically appear instantly. > When I bought my laptop, I didn't worry about video. And that was your mistake. > It was all supposed to "just work". If you expect that, you need to check what hardware you're buying. > The good news is that now GoogleEarth runs with the stock radeon driver, > but I can't tell you exactly when that happened because there was no big > fanfare about it when it happened. Assuming it's an r5xx series card (it can't be r6xx or higher because you said the Catalyst driver doesn't support it anymore), Fedora 9 updates / Fedora 10. It was added in this update: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/package-announce/2008-July/011954.html which says "adds r500 support" spelled out black on white in the update notes. If it's an r3xx or r4xx, even earlier. Please tell us the exact model ID. Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 02:20:38 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > On Monday 01 February 2010 22:58:13 Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > And look what just came out today: > > http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzk0Ng > > OH, WOW! :-D > > I was just about to opt-out of the discussion because it is getting more and > more philosophical, but *this* text... This text is *way* too good to be > skipped! > > Did you actually read it through? Let me sum up the highlights (quoting, > skipping irrelevant details and putting some of my own comments in square > brackets --- sorry, couldn't resist... ;-) ): Yes. You said they weren't providing documentation. Here is an article showing them providing part of that documentation. There was also the link to their previous release of documentation of the shader language of the r800 series. I don't care if ATI doesn't supply a complete driver. Documentation of how to do things is what is needed to update the existing community open source driver. It isn't like a driver needs to be written from scratch. It shouldn't be too long before r800s are usuable where performance isn't critical. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 17:23:40 -0800, Brian Mury wrote: > On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 08:51 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > I don't have access to and r600 or r700 based cards. I have a rv280 at > > home and an rv530 at work and both do 3d currently. > > I also have an rv280 that I have been having problems with. I'm curious > if you are using kernel or user space mode setting, and what you have in > your xorg.conf (if anything). Currently the machine using the rv280 is running rawhide with KMS. OpenGL was working on the card on F12 (also with KMS) when it was released. The performance varies over time and right now video seems a bit slower than in the past, but I may have monkeyed around with some of the player settings. I do need an xorg.conf file because my monitors don't do EDID and the default screen resolution isn't what I want. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 19:38:39 -0500, "Kevin J. Cummings" wrote: > > I think you are missing the point here. Fedora is admittedly a bleeding > edge software distribution that does not support the bleeding edge of > video hardware. How ironic is that? I sure there is plenty of hardware that Fedora doesn't work on. > And what you are saying is that someone can't get support for the video > card in his/her brand spanking new computer that they just bought at the > computer storeassuming it has the latest and greatest video card > from whatever manufacturer. Weird. I am saying people should not recommend buying nVidia hardware to people that want to run Fedora, esepecially people new to linux. > When I bought my laptop, I didn't worry about video. It was all > supposed to "just work". I got stuck with a Radeon Mobility card. At If you buy computers without knowing what parts get used, you should expect to get hosed. There are all sorts of crap parts that can get used. In particular modems, graphics chipsets and wireless chipsets can all be problematic under linux. > driver! So, now it works. It only took 3 plus years to get support for > a video card which was "old" when I bought it! What *is* the Yes, Fedora 3d graphics has sucked since around F6 until F12. And there are still issues with only limited opengl support. > mean-lifetime of computer equipment these days? I can't say that I've > ever used (for very long) a computer much older than 3 years old at work > before it was declared unusable (too slow) and I got a newer replacement > for it. At work we have about a 3 year cycle, though I tend to go 5 but get better stuff to start out. At home I use computers that are all over 5 years old. (Though my wife has a newer one.) I even have a couple of Pentium 90 laptops I used last summer and may use again this summer. > If Fedora wants to be taken seriously, its open source video drivers > must support video cards for what they are designed for: each new one > is faster and more capable. If we can't use the newer cards > capabilities within the limited lifetime of the hardware, it is a waste > of time. Personally I don't see a lot of need to support people who buy $1000 video cards every year. Those people are going to want to use Windows to play video games. I do think we need better support for video cards in general. And using proprietary drivers doesn't get us there. > The next capability I will want to use in a video card is VDPAU video > acceleration, for which there is *no* support in any of the open source > drivers, and is not currently a priority with the open source driver > people. In fact, its not even on ATI's proprietary road map, yet. So, > that means my next card will be a mid-high end nVidia card, and I'll use > their proprietary driver, and I'll be able to watch high end digital > video (H.624 and hi-bitrate mpeg4 stuff) on ATOM class processors! I > can't do that today with today's hi-mid-range CPUs, but I can do it > tomorrow on today's low-end CPUs with the new video cards. That's going to be a whole different battle. The MPAA isn't going to want people to have access to their valuable IP, so that stuff is going to have big problems in Fedora. > I don't need to play any high end Windows games. That's not why I want > high-end video support. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Monday 01 February 2010 23:58:45 François Cami wrote: > Moreover, according to Wikipedia [2] [3] and others, it seems that > NVIDIA has not released any really new hardware for a long while. > If this is true, you are comparing apples (really new hardware > on new Xorg) to oranges (refreshed old hardware on new Xorg). Well, I do agree with this, it seems it is not a fair comparison after all. Anyway, see my other post (answer to Kevin). I admit I lost the debate, although I also believe I made a strong point for my case. Let's call it off... ;-) Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On 02/01/2010 08:23 PM, Brian Mury wrote: > On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 08:51 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> I don't have access to and r600 or r700 based cards. I have a rv280 at >> home and an rv530 at work and both do 3d currently. > > I also have an rv280 that I have been having problems with. I'm curious > if you are using kernel or user space mode setting, and what you have in > your xorg.conf (if anything). > My experience is: > > KMS: 3D works but is slow, 2D is so slow it is unusable (can't even > watch a low-def youtube video, for example). Supposedly there is a known bug that with KMS on some chips, you can't suspend. I know, mine is one of them. Since I turned it off with a nomodeset, I can suspend my laptop again. This is on F11.x86_64. > UMS: 2D and 3D both work at expected speeds (XAA is a bit faster than > the default EXA), but 3D often completely locks up the computer - can't > even SSH to it. > > Brian -- Kevin J. Cummings kjch...@rcn.com cummi...@kjchome.homeip.net cummi...@kjc386.framingham.ma.us Registered Linux User #1232 (http://counter.li.org) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Monday 01 February 2010 23:53:32 Kevin Kofler wrote: > Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > And who supports their own hardware at all? Opensource-ness is immaterial > > here, ATI doesn't have *any* drivers which would work in F12, for their > > own latest&greatest graphics card. > > Who cares? That card is too expensive anyway! At an Austrian price > comparison site (but I doubt it's very different elsewhere), the cheapest > card with that Radeon HD 5970 costs EUR 529.20!!! The cheapest supported > model is an X1550 at EUR 20.40, the next cheapest an HD 3450 (should work > with mesa-dri-drivers-experimental) at EUR 22.10. Even an HD 4350 (should > also work with mesa-dri-drivers-experimental) can be had at only EUR 24.48. > (Note: Those are all PCI-Express cards.) Those cards are over 20 times > cheaper! And they're also passively cooled, so you also save power (and > thus even more money) and noise. And the chip itself probably also draws > less power. Why throw out EUR 500 + energy costs + your freedom just to > have the latest? Ok, when it comes to money, and "who cares?" type of argument, I stop arguing. :-) However... While I would never ever spend 500 EUR for a graphics card that doesn't have a usable driver, I would just like to make a small non-serious comment --- your argument above can be naturally extended as follows: if you don't buy a computer at all, you save the ultimate amount of your money, energy and freedom! I'm going to meditate on this.. ;-) Anyway, I did enter this debate knowing in advance that I am to lose eventually. And so I admit the debate is lost, but nevertheless I believe I've made my point about this whole topic. Kevin, I invite you to provide a closing statement for the thread. I withdraw, and believe we've beaten this topic to death. :-) Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Monday 01 February 2010 22:58:13 Bruno Wolff III wrote: > And look what just came out today: > http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzk0Ng OH, WOW! :-D I was just about to opt-out of the discussion because it is getting more and more philosophical, but *this* text... This text is *way* too good to be skipped! Did you actually read it through? Let me sum up the highlights (quoting, skipping irrelevant details and putting some of my own comments in square brackets --- sorry, couldn't resist... ;-) ): Months after the ATI Radeon HD 5000 series ... was introduced, AMD has finally pushed out the first bits of open-source code... [Yeah, after some months, finally!!] The ATI kernel mode-setting support that we really care about ... isn't yet published. The open-source ATI driver currently offers no 2D ... and the 3D support ... also is not yet available. [So this driver is actually the vesa driver, right?] The DDX driver supports mode-setting ... while the DisplayPort connectivity is still not working right... [Nah, who cares about that...] These new AMD graphics cards have been around since September while there was no open-source support at that time. [So it's been like, 5 months now?] In December ... there was Evergreen Shader documentation that was made publicly available and around that time it was confirmed ... that initial VGA mode-setting was working ... on unreleased code. [Oh, bummer, unreleased.] ... The revised target was to publish this code by FOSDEM, which is this weekend so AMD did hit the target this time. [I bet some PR manager at ATI is going to get a bonus for half-a- year delay in development, just to hit it between the eyes on FOSDEM, with so much media coverage...] Ideally we can see the ... kernel mode-setting support land in time for the Linux 2.6.34 kernel merge window that should be opening up next month. [What, no KMS on FOSDEM?] At this time there is no Radeon HD 5000 series support via hard-coded paths or AtomBIOS with the xf86-video-radeonhd driver, nor do we know if any support will ever come. [Man, I get a feeling that the author of this text loves ATI just as much as I do... :-) ] For those interested in the Radeon HD 5000 series and the Catalyst Linux driver [But, but... This is closed source!!! That's sacrilege!!!], which has been supported since the first Evergreen GPUs were introduced, we have benchmarks of the Radeon HD 5750 and Radeon HD 5770. Logs of the chatter surrounding the open-source ... can be found at RadeonHD.org... [Oh, I so love to chatter about open source with Catalyst developers...] The PCI IDs ... support includes the desktop and mobile GPUs ... along with some unreleased ASICs. ... The xf86-video-ati patches to support these new ATI graphics processors is currently several hundred lines of code without any acceleration support. [Yeah, who needs acceleration these days, really? We're all so over it...] The introduced patches (driver log) update AtomBIOS, add AtomBIOS support for the new digital output setup on Evergreen, LUT support, hardware cursor support, and CRTC/PLL updates. Now we just need to wait for 2D and 3D acceleration support along with KMS, which fortunately is right out on the horizon or so it seems. [Or so it seems! You gotta love this guy, this text is awesome!] We're also waiting to find out what other sort of hardware documentation will be released ... [One who waits long enough, finds out eventually... Umm... Oh, those damn proverbs...] The ATI Radeon HD 2000/3000/4000 (R600/700) graphics processors are what up to this point have been the biggest focus among open-source driver developers, which now has proper kernel mode-setting support and 3D acceleration via Mesa. The Radeon X1000 (R500) support is basically 2D/3D complete at this time as with the much older ATI Radeon hardware, which now is in the process of migrating to a Gallium3D stack. [Yeah!!! Those proud R500 owners!! Their hardware finally Just Works, after all these years...] Folks, what can I say? ATI support is so awesome that I have no business here criticizing them. Just read this review from a real *pro*, the original is on the quoted link above! ;-) Enjoy! :-D Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Monday 01 February 2010, Tom Horsley wrote: >On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:35:03 -0500 > >Gene Heskett wrote: >> if I enable pulseaudio, it chooses that for >> the main output, cannot be convinced to ignore it > >Actually, in F12, the advanced audio control app has >a hardware control tab where one of the modes available >to operate each hardware device is "ignore". I'm now willing to >use pulse in F12 because I can make it ignore my 2nd sound >card which I dedicate to optical output from mplayer. > That would be nice Tom, but until there is a respin of X64, I'm not sure I can lift a pole long enough to touch F12. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) "THIS time it really is fixed. I mean, how many times can we get it wrong? At some point, we just have to run out of really bad ideas.." - Linus Torvalds" -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Hi Marko, On Monday 01 February 2010 06:23 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > On Sunday 31 January 2010 20:30:36 Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> I think the current suggestion is to buy Intel or ATI hardware and use >> the open source drivers > When we speak of 3D, ATI just doesn't have decent open source drivers, > regardless of available specs (radeon(hd) works only on older cards, if you > are lucky), while Intel's 3D hardly deserves to be called "accelerated". So I > don't see the point of encouraging ATI and Intel, since if you want serious > 3D, only nVidia provides (at least closed source) drivers that actually work. > > Intel 3D and obsolete ATI 3D using radeon driver are not considered "serious > 3D", at least from my perspective. Encouraging that would be like encouraging > the use of Pentium 3 over Quad Core just because it is known to work. I believe you have been misinformed on this one. I have a HD4870 (rv770) and have successfully played nexuiz with the experimental dri driver package with the F12 games spin. I however still use F11 as I need my daily fix of quakelive ;). Although quakelive plays on F12 but its a bit too buggy for my taste. I need to figure out a scheme with Live USBs to keep track of the improvements in 3D support for my card with OS drivers the moment I find some time. I have high hopes that they will be very stable before F13 release. At the start of last year, I was unable to boot to runlevel 5 with the OS drivers, by the year end I could play 3D games with decent performance ( ~100fps @ 1680x1050! ). I would consider this a giant leap, wouldn't you agree? > Best, :-) > Marko -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 08:51 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > I don't have access to and r600 or r700 based cards. I have a rv280 at > home and an rv530 at work and both do 3d currently. I also have an rv280 that I have been having problems with. I'm curious if you are using kernel or user space mode setting, and what you have in your xorg.conf (if anything). My experience is: KMS: 3D works but is slow, 2D is so slow it is unusable (can't even watch a low-def youtube video, for example). UMS: 2D and 3D both work at expected speeds (XAA is a bit faster than the default EXA), but 3D often completely locks up the computer - can't even SSH to it. Brian -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 16:58 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 22:52:24 +, > Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > > > Unlike ATI, who *claim* to support FS, but actually do so only when the > > hardware in question becomes obsolete. > > r700 series chipsets are hardly obsolete. I don't think one would have too > much trouble buying one. > > And look what just came out today: > http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzk0Ng ...And from that very article, it says: The ATI kernel mode-setting support that we really care about these days is also about done, but it isn't yet published. The open-source ATI driver currently offers no 2D (EXA) acceleration and the 3D support either through a classic Mesa driver or Gallium3D also is not yet available. ... Ideally we can see the initial Evergreen kernel mode-setting support land in time for the Linux 2.6.34 kernel merge window that should be opening up next month. At this time there is no Radeon HD 5000 series support via hard-coded paths or AtomBIOS with the xf86-video-radeonhd driver, nor do we know if any support will ever come. So, in other words, we might see some of this in F13. ...Or maybe F14, if we see some of this at all. ...By which time, the hardware in question fits the "cheaper" description advocated by those who are fervently recommending "OpenSource ueber alles!" as the priority, because nobody needs anything faster anyway. After all, if anybody really did need that, these guys would already be running it anyway. Oh, and the hardware in question will also be no longer the latest, and will be well into or near the end of it's normal hardware life cycle. So much for Fedora being a bleeding edge distro in the video support category. This sounds more like people making excuses for why they are behind the proprietary curve - even if Fedora really didn't have to be if they put the right amount of the right resources into it. -- "Ninety-nine percent of the failures come from people who have the habit of making excuses." --George Washington Carver -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On 02/01/2010 05:49 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 22:31:22 +, > Marko Vojinovic wrote: >> You are basically listing hardware that is either inferior in performance or >> is going to become obsolete in a year. > > Obsolete? Not for Fedora. Maybe for playing the latest Windows based games > or doing some sort of commercial rendering. I think you are missing the point here. Fedora is admittedly a bleeding edge software distribution that does not support the bleeding edge of video hardware. How ironic is that? >> You are basically recommending that Fedora users buy inferior hardware, for > > And much cheaper hadrware. And possibly passively cooled hardware that is > quieter. (The 9200 was a really card for its time. It was inexpensive and > didn't need a separate fan.) And what you are saying is that someone can't get support for the video card in his/her brand spanking new computer that they just bought at the computer storeassuming it has the latest and greatest video card from whatever manufacturer. Weird. When I bought my laptop, I didn't worry about video. It was all supposed to "just work". I got stuck with a Radeon Mobility card. At the time (FC6), it required the fglrx driver to work properly for what I wanted to use it for. I wanted to play with MythTV and GoogleEarth. At the time, the ATI radeon driver did *not* support 3D. And this card was *not* supported by radeonhd. A year and some later, I upgraded to F9. I then had to wait 3-4 months for fglrx to work with F9 (and I missed the actual release because there was *no* big fanfare about it). Now its running F11. At some point I did convert from fglrx to the radeon driver because fglrx would no longer run on the new F11 kernels and the catalyst driver no longer supports my card (and my computer is not yet 4 years old!) The good news is that now GoogleEarth runs with the stock radeon driver, but I can't tell you exactly when that happened because there was no big fanfare about it when it happened. If this discussion hadn't have started up, I probably still wouldn't have known since the old behaviour was that when GoogleEarth started up, it locked-up the whole system, not something I would expect from a video driver! So, now it works. It only took 3 plus years to get support for a video card which was "old" when I bought it! What *is* the mean-lifetime of computer equipment these days? I can't say that I've ever used (for very long) a computer much older than 3 years old at work before it was declared unusable (too slow) and I got a newer replacement for it. If Fedora wants to be taken seriously, its open source video drivers must support video cards for what they are designed for: each new one is faster and more capable. If we can't use the newer cards capabilities within the limited lifetime of the hardware, it is a waste of time. The next capability I will want to use in a video card is VDPAU video acceleration, for which there is *no* support in any of the open source drivers, and is not currently a priority with the open source driver people. In fact, its not even on ATI's proprietary road map, yet. So, that means my next card will be a mid-high end nVidia card, and I'll use their proprietary driver, and I'll be able to watch high end digital video (H.624 and hi-bitrate mpeg4 stuff) on ATOM class processors! I can't do that today with today's hi-mid-range CPUs, but I can do it tomorrow on today's low-end CPUs with the new video cards. I don't need to play any high end Windows games. That's not why I want high-end video support. -- Kevin J. Cummings kjch...@rcn.com cummi...@kjchome.homeip.net cummi...@kjc386.framingham.ma.us Registered Linux User #1232 (http://counter.li.org) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Tom Horsley wrote: > Actually, in F12, the advanced audio control app has > a hardware control tab where one of the modes available > to operate each hardware device is "ignore". I'm now willing to > use pulse in F12 because I can make it ignore my 2nd sound > card which I dedicate to optical output from mplayer. And for KDE users, install the latest updates (in particular, the pulseaudio, phonon and kdebase-runtime updates), restart your KDE session if you just updated, then go to Settings → System Settings → Multimedia and reorder your device priorities to put the broken device to the bottom. (I'm no sure whether deleting it outright works. I think with PA it has the same effect as moving it to the bottom.) Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:43:06 + Marko Vojinovic wrote: > On Monday 01 February 2010 20:46:52 François Cami wrote: > > > > Of course, I use neither IGPs nor the latest cards. > > Of course you don't, because the latest ATI cards don't work on F12. The reason _I_ do not own anything more current is that I don't need any faster card than the ones I have. > There is no functional driver, nor open nor closed source. For the latest hw generation running on the latest Xorg, yes, you are correct. This is simply not true for cards older than six months. This card is also supported on Xorg 7.4 by the Catalyst proprietary driver, if proprietary is your thing. > > > oops, sorry... you *cannot* opt for radeon(hd) > > > driver because ATI did *not* disclose the specs for their HD family of > > > cards. > > > > They did. > > Ok, let me jump through another hoop here. The latest desktop graphics card > model I can find on the ATI website is called "ATI Radeon HD 5970". They > claim > it to be the fastest graphics card on the planet. Let me quote you again: "ATI did *not* disclose the specs for their HD family of cards." You never said HD5970 there, only HD. The first HD were released four years ago. We have specifications at [0] for all of these _except_ the latest ones. Cleaning up video card specifications for public use takes time and effort. I do not think it would be financially wise to delay a hardware release until both documentation and a Xorg driver are ready, neither should you. > > They also pay people (Alex Deucher for instance) to develop a free driver. > > See: > > http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=43 > > http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=47 > > http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=48 > > So we get specifications and a free driver. > > So where is the driver for the above card? Can't you read the latest post? > > ATI provides specs and code hand in hand with the Xorg devs. > > NVIDIA provides a binary blob. > > Who's most opensource friendly? > > And who supports their own hardware at all? Who is closest to the Fedora objectives at [1]? > Opensource-ness is immaterial here I don't think so. Being able to have working 2D/3D on a lot of hardware out of the box, without any third party support is a boon for any Linux distribution. The current situation is way better than a few years ago. > ATI doesn't have *any* drivers which would work in F12, for their own > latest&greatest graphics card. True. However, both X.org 7.5 and F12 were released at about the same time this hardware was. Getting a driver in a working shape takes some time. Moreover, according to Wikipedia [2] [3] and others, it seems that NVIDIA has not released any really new hardware for a long while. If this is true, you are comparing apples (really new hardware on new Xorg) to oranges (refreshed old hardware on new Xorg). F [0] http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/ [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_200_Series [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_300_Series -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Marko Vojinovic wrote: > And who supports their own hardware at all? Opensource-ness is immaterial > here, ATI doesn't have *any* drivers which would work in F12, for their > own latest&greatest graphics card. Who cares? That card is too expensive anyway! At an Austrian price comparison site (but I doubt it's very different elsewhere), the cheapest card with that Radeon HD 5970 costs EUR 529.20!!! The cheapest supported model is an X1550 at EUR 20.40, the next cheapest an HD 3450 (should work with mesa-dri-drivers-experimental) at EUR 22.10. Even an HD 4350 (should also work with mesa-dri-drivers-experimental) can be had at only EUR 24.48. (Note: Those are all PCI-Express cards.) Those cards are over 20 times cheaper! And they're also passively cooled, so you also save power (and thus even more money) and noise. And the chip itself probably also draws less power. Why throw out EUR 500 + energy costs + your freedom just to have the latest? Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:35:03 -0500 Gene Heskett wrote: > if I enable pulseaudio, it chooses that for > the main output, cannot be convinced to ignore it Actually, in F12, the advanced audio control app has a hardware control tab where one of the modes available to operate each hardware device is "ignore". I'm now willing to use pulse in F12 because I can make it ignore my 2nd sound card which I dedicate to optical output from mplayer. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Bruno Wolff III wrote: > And much cheaper hadrware. And possibly passively cooled hardware that is > quieter. (The 9200 was a really card for its time. It was inexpensive and > didn't need a separate fan.) That's also a good point. It's a good argument for an integrated Intel GMA chipset, as those normally don't require active cooling. Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Monday 01 February 2010, Marko Vojinovic wrote: >On Monday 01 February 2010 20:11:46 Kevin Kofler wrote: >> Marko Vojinovic wrote: >> > And the fact that they provide support next to none (of their closed >> > source drivers) demonstrates that they *do* care about Linux market, >> > and do take the community support seriously. >> >> I disagree. Providing proprietary drivers is NOT providing support to >> Free Software or GNU/Linux. > >Of course not. It is providing support for their hardware. And they do a > very good job at it. > >The fact they don't support the Free Software might be their own choice, in >the end. And this is completely legitimate standpoint for a hardware >manufacturer. They are just protecting their technology secrets. I see > nothing wrong with that, as long as they provide support. > >Unlike ATI, who *claim* to support FS, but actually do so only when the >hardware in question becomes obsolete. > And in my experience, by the time we have decent ATI FS drivers (and even that is for selected cards at first, usually missing the price leaders for at least another year) the nVidia card has either died completely, or nVidia has disco'd the drivers for it in the name of the march of progress. The radeon driver, while not an indy car or bonneville speed demon, is working quite well and stable (more than I can say about the radeonhd driver which goes randomly into uncontrolled fits of screen blanking) for me now on an rv610 card called the Diamond HD2400 Pro. But, its well out of the supply pipelines, so now that the FS driver is stable, rotsa ruck finding one of them to buy. My main bitch is that it has an audio system in the chip that isn't even bonded out to a connector, but if I enable pulseaudio, it chooses that for the main output, cannot be convinced to ignore it, and my machine is then silent. And yet another voice is heard screaming how do I get rid of PA. Sending L.P. messages about that get no _useful_ response, its as if he doesn't understand why there might be more than one audio facility in a machine, when in fact this one has 3, one on the video card thats a /dev/null, the motherboard kit that sounds like the $1.50 it cost ASUS to put it on this board, and an Audigy2 Live(SBO-400), a pretty decent 24 bit stereo only card. My choice of video cards is somewhat determined by the fact that ATI has at least thrown some docs over the fence, albeit often old, giving folks like Alex a leg up on writing FS drivers. Having gone to the nvidia forum looking for help, a linux user always seems to get his answers filtered through a lawyer to make absolutely sure that no information that might actually be helpful gets forwarded back to the hapless user. With all due respect for the brains at nVidia, screw that, you put your pants on one leg at a time just like I do. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Last time I had intimate contact with another human being was rather a painful experience... I rather liked it... ;) -- Brett Manz -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Marko Vojinovic wrote: > Suppose I am a newbie for computers, and I decided to buy the > latest&greatest in available hardware Then you're already making a mistake. The latest hardware isn't always the best. Especially not when it comes to driver support. It's just a big waste of money. > So when I get to choose a graphics card for my new shiny desktop machine, > which of the two do you recommend to work better in Fedora? > > (1) ATI Radeon HD 5970, or > (2) nVidia Quadro FX 5800 Neither. They're both complete "no go"s. > There are no open source 3D drivers for either of these two cards, right? Right, thus they are both not an option. > Ok, now go back and reread my initial comment above. I still don't > understand recommending ATI. I don't recommend just "ATI", I recommend ATI <= Radeon HD 4xxx. Or Intel GMA integrated graphics (except the Poulsbo/GMA500, but that one isn't likely to end up in desktops anyway, it's a netbook chip) if you're getting a new motherboard anyway. > So, which of the two vendors supports its hardware better for Linux > platforms? Mind you, I did not say "supports open source cause and free as > in speech stuff", i said "supports its *hardware*". "Supporting" hardware with binary-only proprietary drivers is not (properly) supporting the hardware under GNU/Linux, a Free Software operating system. > And where are the specs for the card (1) above? Where is that famous Free > as in speech support from ATI when it comes down to non-obsolete hardware > like that? They are just a bunch of hypocrites who claim to support the > whole "Free" idea, but only when their technology secrets become obsolete. > And you are falling for that, and persuading others to follow. I'm not, I recommend Intel above ATI. But ATI is still worlds better than NVidia! There's a wide range of models already having working 3D support in Free Software, thanks to specs having been released. NVidia didn't release ANY specs to the Nouveau project, not even for their "legacy" models they won't even support with current drivers anymore (just with poorly-maintained "legacy" branches which lag behind in support for current kernel and X.Org versions and which will never get features like support for the latest XRandR specs which are required to work properly in modern KDE). > You are basically listing hardware that is either inferior in performance > or is going to become obsolete in a year. Hardware which also saves you money, it's certainly much less expensive than the "latest&greatest" (which is actually not that great as it requires proprietary drivers)! Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 22:52:24 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > Unlike ATI, who *claim* to support FS, but actually do so only when the > hardware in question becomes obsolete. r700 series chipsets are hardly obsolete. I don't think one would have too much trouble buying one. And look what just came out today: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzk0Ng -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 22:31:22 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > Suppose I am a newbie for computers, and I decided to buy the latest&greatest > in available hardware (btw, this can make sense if you don't want your > machine > to be obsolete by tomorrow). So when I get to choose a graphics card for my > new shiny desktop machine, which of the two do you recommend to work better > in > Fedora? > > (1) ATI Radeon HD 5970, or > (2) nVidia Quadro FX 5800 (3) Don't buy either if you are planning on using 3d graphics in Fedora right now. (4) Buy a second inexpensive card for use in Fedora. Or reuse one of the many cards you have sitting around after replacing your video card every year. > You are basically listing hardware that is either inferior in performance or > is going to become obsolete in a year. Obsolete? Not for Fedora. Maybe for playing the latest Windows based games or doing some sort of commercial rendering. > You are basically recommending that Fedora users buy inferior hardware, for And much cheaper hadrware. And possibly passively cooled hardware that is quieter. (The 9200 was a really card for its time. It was inexpensive and didn't need a separate fan.) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Monday 01 February 2010 20:11:46 Kevin Kofler wrote: > Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > And the fact that they provide support next to none (of their closed > > source drivers) demonstrates that they *do* care about Linux market, and > > do take the community support seriously. > > I disagree. Providing proprietary drivers is NOT providing support to Free > Software or GNU/Linux. Of course not. It is providing support for their hardware. And they do a very good job at it. The fact they don't support the Free Software might be their own choice, in the end. And this is completely legitimate standpoint for a hardware manufacturer. They are just protecting their technology secrets. I see nothing wrong with that, as long as they provide support. Unlike ATI, who *claim* to support FS, but actually do so only when the hardware in question becomes obsolete. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Monday 01 February 2010 20:46:52 François Cami wrote: > > Of course, I use neither IGPs nor the latest cards. Of course you don't, because the latest ATI cards don't work on F12. There is no functional driver, nor open nor closed source. > > oops, sorry... you *cannot* opt for radeon(hd) > > driver because ATI did *not* disclose the specs for their HD family of > > cards. > > They did. Ok, let me jump through another hoop here. The latest desktop graphics card model I can find on the ATI website is called "ATI Radeon HD 5970". They claim it to be the fastest graphics card on the planet. Point me to the specs, pretty please? I searched all around Xorg website, ATI website, used google... Didn't find them. > They also pay people (Alex Deucher for instance) to develop a free driver. > See: > http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=43 > http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=47 > http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=48 > So we get specifications and a free driver. So where is the driver for the above card? > ATI provides specs and code hand in hand with the Xorg devs. > NVIDIA provides a binary blob. > Who's most opensource friendly? And who supports their own hardware at all? Opensource-ness is immaterial here, ATI doesn't have *any* drivers which would work in F12, for their own latest&greatest graphics card. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Monday 01 February 2010 20:03:40 Kevin Kofler wrote: > Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > You mean as in nVidia drivers taking a week or so to adjust to new kernel > > version and reach rpmfusion? Wow, that's a bummer! So you suggest we all > > opt to use ATI drivers which don't work at all on current X for several > > months now, basically since F12 appeared? And who knows when (or if) they > > will actually start supporting modern X? > > > > You are saying that we should abandon closed source drivers for cards > > which work and are well supported by nVidia, and instead use closed > > source drivers which don't work and have lousy (if any) Linux support > > from ATI? Call me stupid, but I don't understand your argument. > > As others have explained, this is a strawman, i.e. you're misrepresenting > or misunderstanding my position. I DO NOT RECOMMEND using the proprietary > ATI drivers or ANY other non-Free driver!!! No, you seem to misunderstand my comment. Let me put it this way: Suppose I am a newbie for computers, and I decided to buy the latest&greatest in available hardware (btw, this can make sense if you don't want your machine to be obsolete by tomorrow). So when I get to choose a graphics card for my new shiny desktop machine, which of the two do you recommend to work better in Fedora? (1) ATI Radeon HD 5970, or (2) nVidia Quadro FX 5800 (note, I just went to ATI and nVidia websites and looked up the latest graphics cards on offer for desktop use). There are no open source 3D drivers for either of these two cards, right? There is only the closed source Catalyst driver for the ATI card, and the closed source nvidia driver for the nVidia card. I repeat, *both* are closed source, right? And which of the two is supported and works in F12? Ok, now go back and reread my initial comment above. I still don't understand recommending ATI. Feel free to call me stupid yet again, but I simply don't see how is ATI better (at least in this vivid example I made up for you). So, which of the two vendors supports its hardware better for Linux platforms? Mind you, I did not say "supports open source cause and free as in speech stuff", i said "supports its *hardware*". And where are the specs for the card (1) above? Where is that famous Free as in speech support from ATI when it comes down to non-obsolete hardware like that? They are just a bunch of hypocrites who claim to support the whole "Free" idea, but only when their technology secrets become obsolete. And you are falling for that, and persuading others to follow. > What I recommend is using one of the following: [snip] You are basically listing hardware that is either inferior in performance or is going to become obsolete in a year. > All of these are supported with 3D/OpenGL acceleration in the Free (as in > speech) drivers. You are basically recommending that Fedora users buy inferior hardware, for the sake of Free Software. While I have nothing against FS and support it in general, it is a tough call to ask someone to deprive themselves of available functionality for the sake of FS. This is precisely the point where Free Software idea is starting to become a "religion". And this is very bad. The software must serve humans, not the other way around. I hope my point is more clear now. :-) Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:01:45 + Marko Vojinovic wrote: > As for 3D and closed source drivers... If you buy a nVidia card, you can use > their closed source drivers, and they basically Just Work. If you buy an ATI > card, you can use... oops, sorry... you *cannot* use their closed source > drivers, because they do not support your version of X. Or you can opt for > open source radeon driver... Which works perfectly fine, 2D and 3D wise, with the occasional bug, on my: * RV200 (Radeon 7500) * R200 (FireGL 8800) * RV350 (Radeon 9550) * RV370 (FireGL V3100) * RV410 (Radeon X700 Pro) and I should say the few bugs I've encountered were all fixed within a few days of my reporting them. I use the V3100 at work (my workstation there always runs the latest Fedora) to light up a 2x1600x1200 setup and I obviously need it working reliably. Of course, I use neither IGPs nor the latest cards. > oops, sorry... you *cannot* opt for radeon(hd) > driver because ATI did *not* disclose the specs for their HD family of cards. They did. They also pay people (Alex Deucher for instance) to develop a free driver. See: http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=43 http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=47 http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=48 So we get specifications and a free driver. > > And as you know, ATI is very open-source-friendly, unlike those nVidia guys... > ATI provides specs and code hand in hand with the Xorg devs. NVIDIA provides a binary blob. Who's most opensource friendly? François -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Marko Vojinovic wrote: > As for 3D and closed source drivers... If you buy a nVidia card, you can > use their closed source drivers, and they basically Just Work. If you buy > an ATI card, you can use... oops, sorry... you *cannot* use their closed > source drivers, because they do not support your version of X. Or you can > opt for open source radeon driver... oops, sorry... you *cannot* opt for > radeon(hd) driver Up to HD 4xxx is now supported by mesa-dri-drivers-experimental. > because ATI did *not* disclose the specs for their HD family of cards. Not true. Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Marko Vojinovic wrote: > AFAIK, nVidia is locked up in closed source licences and non-disclosure > agreements, and that is the only reason why they don't provide specs and > open source drivers. It appears nVidia has good will, but legal issues are > a showstopper. That's bullshit. There are repeated public statements from NVidia that they don't see any market or demand for "open source" (Free Software) drivers and that therefore they don't care. Don't delude yourself! > And the fact that they provide support next to none (of their closed > source drivers) demonstrates that they *do* care about Linux market, and > do take the community support seriously. I disagree. Providing proprietary drivers is NOT providing support to Free Software or GNU/Linux. (In fact it's worse than doing nothing because some people who would otherwise help the Nouveau project are content with using the proprietary crap.) Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Marko Vojinovic wrote: > You mean as in nVidia drivers taking a week or so to adjust to new kernel > version and reach rpmfusion? Wow, that's a bummer! So you suggest we all > opt to use ATI drivers which don't work at all on current X for several > months now, basically since F12 appeared? And who knows when (or if) they > will actually start supporting modern X? > > You are saying that we should abandon closed source drivers for cards > which work and are well supported by nVidia, and instead use closed source > drivers which don't work and have lousy (if any) Linux support from ATI? > Call me stupid, but I don't understand your argument. As others have explained, this is a strawman, i.e. you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position. I DO NOT RECOMMEND using the proprietary ATI drivers or ANY other non-Free driver!!! What I recommend is using one of the following: * Intel integrated graphics (the desktop/laptop versions, NOT the GMA500/Poulsbo which is NOT supported by the Free intel driver) with the Free intel driver. * ATI Radeon cards from the r1xx-r5xx series (basically, the ones without "HD" in the name) with the Free radeon driver. * If you don't mind experimental 3D support, ATI Radeon cards from the r6xx or r7xx series (Radeon HD cards up to HD 4xxx) with the Free radeon driver (see the mesa-dri-drivers-experimental package in F12). But as they say, YMMV. Use an older Radeon or an Intel chip if you want something stable now. All of these are supported with 3D/OpenGL acceleration in the Free (as in speech) drivers. Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Robin Laing wrote: > I purchased two new computers (1 laptop) last year. In both cases I > chose nVidia video because I know that they work. Even in F12 and KDE. > I have had Intel video cards and had to replace them with nVidia to > get applications to work properly. Weird, the Intel GM965 on my laptop just works for me. > I have been burned by ATI's support for Linux in the past, and that has > left a sour taste in my mouth. Except the current recommended driver is the Free Software one, which is completely different from the one you've been burned by in the past. There is now support for all the pre-HD models installed by default and experimental, but mostly working, support for HD models up to HD 4xxx (up to r7xx in internal naming) in the mesa-dri-drivers-experimental package. Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Robin Laing wrote: > There is a supposed to be 3D support work through Gallium3D. Now this > is not an option with Fedora as they don't make a RPM for this package. > Maybe it isn't ready yet. I don't know. Without this, I cannot test > the Nouveau driver. It's really not ready. Fedora is quick to offer stuff which works even if it is experimental. Right now it just doesn't work, unfortunately. Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On 01/31/2010 01:18 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 08:27:04 -0700, >"Christopher A. Williams" wrote: >> >> Nouveau only supports 2D, and the OpenSource Radeon driver has had at >> least as many ...ummm issues as the proprietary driver. >> >> So, if you need true 3D graphics support without a lot of issues, at the >> moment nVidia with their proprietary driver is your best option. This, >> of course, could change with the next set of releases from any of the >> players. > > The problem with this recommendation is that it doesn't take into account > that once you have bought the hardware, you are committed to it. Unless you > throw away your video cards every year or so, there is a good case to be > made the buying an r5xx radeon right now makes more sense. The r5xx cards > are supported OK now and will continue to be improved going forward for the > forseeable future. It is pretty hard to take the graphics card out of a laptop. When purchasing a laptop, you have to look at what you want to do with it. > > If you buy nVidia and want 3d features, you are stuck with the proprietary > driver until Nouveau provides them which might be two years out. And you > can't easily jump back to radeon. With all of the things going on with > Mesa and KMS, Fedora might be a particularly unfriendly distribution for > trying > to use nVidia's drivers. > There is a supposed to be 3D support work through Gallium3D. Now this is not an option with Fedora as they don't make a RPM for this package. Maybe it isn't ready yet. I don't know. Without this, I cannot test the Nouveau driver. >> Accepting reduced function - especially when needed - for the sake of >> OpenSource dedication will lead down the path of people not adopting >> OpenSource software. We must face the reality that most people could >> care less about the type of license their software has, compared to if >> it meets their particular needs. As the CEO of Black and Decker once put >> it, people don't buy quarter-inch drills; they buy quarter-inch holes. > > I think for people like that, steering them toward Ubuntu is better than > having them use Fedora. Fedora's fast rate of change and stance on freedom > don't mix very well with people who just want things to work. This is what our admins are doing. Moving from Fedora to Ubuntu. Better upgrades is another issue. But Ubuntu isn't perfect. > > I do believe that getting better open source graphics drivers should be a > priority for Fedora. Since that is a matter of doing work and not something > undoable because of software patents. Redhat already has at least four > employees that are pretty much graphics system developers. I don't know > that it is reasonable to expect them to hire more. But it would be nice > if they could get a few that were more focused on getting 3d features > working, in addition to the people whose first priority is keeping the > 2d functionallity working. I would choose 2d only if that is what I need. On one laptop, that is what I run as it's main usage is browsing and using OOo. I need 3d as many of the applications that I use won't even run without 3d support. So lack of 3d isn't an option. Maybe it is time for Fedora to add a feature to rpm not to install 3d dependent apps if there are no 3d drivers present. Of course for many businesses, 2d support is all they need. Word processing isn't a 3d domain. > > Also remember that when dealing with corporations, cheering them on, generally > means buying their products. If you are buying nVidia hardware now out of > practicallity, they are the company you are cheering on and not the ones > supporting open source efforts. This is very true. At least nVidia is making a decent driver for their product. Not perfect but then nothing is. I will give them my money to keep it up. I purchased two new computers (1 laptop) last year. In both cases I chose nVidia video because I know that they work. Even in F12 and KDE. I have had Intel video cards and had to replace them with nVidia to get applications to work properly. I have been burned by ATI's support for Linux in the past, and that has left a sour taste in my mouth. I won't purchase an ATI card without reading some good reviews. Before Xmas, I didn't read many with Linux and ATI. I stuck with nVidia. I know the frustration of dealing with bugs and closed source drivers but that is a price I am willing to pay for a system that I can use a work and home. -- Robin Laing -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Once upon a time, Bruno Wolff III said: > I am not sure about that. I think that a lot of the stuff that is upstream in > 2.6.33 is already in Fedora kernels. I use an rv530 on F12 (currently with the > 2.6.32 kernels, but previously with 2.6.31) and it seems to work OK for > 3d stuff, though I just do quick checks and not a lot of stress testing. > Probably Fedora got the stuff when it went into staging. I have a Radeon RV770 (HD 4850), and it works fine for 2D. I had a little problem with suspend/resume with F12, but that seems to have cleared up (don't try it much now, because now I have other problems with suspend/resume). I have the mesa-dri-drivers-experimental loaded, and glxgears works, but that's about all the 3D I do (video playback works fine; that also uses DRI, right?). The other problem I have read with nVidia cards and the binary driver is that they remove support for older cards after a while, so your previously working card suddenly stops working. I don't really care to support a vendor that takes that approach after a few years. -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Monday 01 February 2010, Tom Horsley wrote: >On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 14:23:57 + > >Marko Vojinovic wrote: >> Given the alleged >> availability of hardware specs, I'd expect the driver to progress much >> faster than it actually does. > >There is a link on the xorg web site somewhere to a batch of pdf files >provided by amd/ati (I saw it once, but don't remember how to navigate >to it again :-). > >The real problem is likely to be that the developers for ati cards >actually believe the docs - often docs are more of a hindrance than >a help when hardware revs happen several times with no change to the >docs, etc. You write code that does just what the docs say, then >waste vast amounts of time looking for bugs you know can't be in that >code because it precisely follows the docs :-). I think the lack >of docs may be why nouveau seems to be making better progress... > >What we need is to take a year, devise some test programs people >can run to check the actual behavior of video cards against the >individual bits of information described in the docs, then encourage >folks to run the tests and report all the flaws in the docs which >we could then ask ati to explain (but that is unlikely to happen, >it is just a fantasy I have :-). Actually Tom, you have company in that fantasy. A decade ago, I asked on this list what the best card was at the time & several said a certain ati card. So I bought one the very next day. No workee. Seems ati had changed the chipset out for a brand new one, and had done it without changing the size of a single dot above an i anyplace on the box. I took it back saying that the card in the box wasn't the card I thought I bought, and wasn't compatible, got an nvidia which mostly worked with the then current nv driver, but it failed post less than a year later. So the test suite fantasy really does sound like a great idea. Thanks for reading. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Q: Why did the lone ranger kill Tonto? A: He found out what "kimosabe" really means. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 09:16:29 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote: > I think the issue is that the drivers in F12 are already out of date, > and that unless the 2.6.33 (and later) video drivers are backported, or > the kernel is upgraded, there won't be a lot of joy. I am not sure about that. I think that a lot of the stuff that is upstream in 2.6.33 is already in Fedora kernels. I use an rv530 on F12 (currently with the 2.6.32 kernels, but previously with 2.6.31) and it seems to work OK for 3d stuff, though I just do quick checks and not a lot of stress testing. Probably Fedora got the stuff when it went into staging. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Monday 01 February 2010, Marko Vojinovic wrote: >On Sunday 31 January 2010 20:47:11 Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 16:01:45 +, >> nVidia's stance is that they neither help nor hinder the Nouveau project. >> That could certainly be worse. They could be trying to actively prevent >> that effort. > >AFAIK, nVidia is locked up in closed source licences and non-disclosure >agreements, and that is the only reason why they don't provide specs and > open source drivers. It appears nVidia has good will, but legal issues are > a showstopper. > >And the fact that they provide support next to none (of their closed source >drivers) demonstrates that they *do* care about Linux market, and do take > the community support seriously. It would be foolish to alienate them > and/or look down on them, given all this. It appears they are doing the > best they can, given the legal rules of the game. > >Best, :-) >Marko > Has anyone bothered to compare the lifetime of the nvidia offerings? I have had several, and they have all failed, one so badly it took the bus drivers on the motherboard with it. I switched to ati designs when I replaced them, and they are all, knock on wood, working. Working well enough that they are usable when running emc, but then whats important there isn't the cards gfx performance, but how well it co-exists with the realtime needs of emc/rtai. IMO, ati is clearly the winner, the radeon driver has grown to quite decent performance if one doesn't need 3d. To me, that is eye candy that detracts from the real job, that of presenting information to the user speedily and accurately. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Can you buy friendship? You not only can, you must. It's the only way to obtain friends. Everything worthwhile has a price. -- Robert J. Ringer -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 14:23:57 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > Well, ok, but if you are testing out new kernels, the open-source 2D driver > shoud do, right? Or are you typically testing kernels and 3D graphics > simultaneously? Sometimes. I am doing dogfood type testing. I occasionally test out how my video card support for 3d games is working. (Most of the games I play regularly only need 2d though.) > > I think the current suggestion is to buy Intel or ATI hardware and use > > the open source drivers > > When we speak of 2D, all three manufacturers (nVidia, ATI and Intel) are > supported by open source drivers, more or less good enough. > > When we speak of 3D, ATI just doesn't have decent open source drivers, What do you mean by decent? 3d acceleration works. Though I don't think that OpenGL support on Linux supports GLSL. But I might have misunderstood the driver status page that I thought said that. > Intel 3D and obsolete ATI 3D using radeon driver are not considered "serious > 3D", at least from my perspective. Encouraging that would be like encouraging > the use of Pentium 3 over Quad Core just because it is known to work. If you are talking render farm type serious, then you are likely to want proprietary drivers. For many linux games, the open source ATI driver should be adequate. I haven't tried playing 3d games in wine lately, because the support wasn't there and the games ran too slow. If that situation has changed now (I believe they are at least working toward that), then playing some of the recent windows games under wine could potentially be a case where proprietary drivers might be needed to get adequate performance. > > in order to reward Intel and ATI for providing > > specs to their hardware > > Would you please provide the link with the specs for the ATI HD family of > cards? Maybe I'm out of the loop here... This seems to be where the X people publish copies: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/ Phoronix typically has stories about documentation dumps when they happen. > > so that open source drivers can be written with > > less effort. > > So where are those drivers for ATI cards? The closed fglrx drivers don't work > on F12, and I don't know about any usable open source ones. Just please don't > say radeon(hd), it simply doesn't support modern cards yet... xorg-x11-drv-ati supports through r700 series cards. In F12 you need to install mesa-drivers-experimental to turn on 3d support for r600 and r700 chips. Things were iffy at F12 release, so these weren't enabled by default. Some people are still reporting problems with the free driver. My memory is that most of the serious issues seem to be on laptops. But that is just from watching the Fedora lists and may not accurately represent the true state. I don't have access to and r600 or r700 based cards. I have a rv280 at home and an rv530 at work and both do 3d currently. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 14:23:57 + Marko Vojinovic wrote: > Given the alleged > availability of hardware specs, I'd expect the driver to progress much faster > than it actually does. There is a link on the xorg web site somewhere to a batch of pdf files provided by amd/ati (I saw it once, but don't remember how to navigate to it again :-). The real problem is likely to be that the developers for ati cards actually believe the docs - often docs are more of a hindrance than a help when hardware revs happen several times with no change to the docs, etc. You write code that does just what the docs say, then waste vast amounts of time looking for bugs you know can't be in that code because it precisely follows the docs :-). I think the lack of docs may be why nouveau seems to be making better progress... What we need is to take a year, devise some test programs people can run to check the actual behavior of video cards against the individual bits of information described in the docs, then encourage folks to run the tests and report all the flaws in the docs which we could then ask ati to explain (but that is unlikely to happen, it is just a fantasy I have :-). -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sunday 31 January 2010 20:47:11 Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 16:01:45 +, > nVidia's stance is that they neither help nor hinder the Nouveau project. > That could certainly be worse. They could be trying to actively prevent > that effort. AFAIK, nVidia is locked up in closed source licences and non-disclosure agreements, and that is the only reason why they don't provide specs and open source drivers. It appears nVidia has good will, but legal issues are a showstopper. And the fact that they provide support next to none (of their closed source drivers) demonstrates that they *do* care about Linux market, and do take the community support seriously. It would be foolish to alienate them and/or look down on them, given all this. It appears they are doing the best they can, given the legal rules of the game. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sunday 31 January 2010 20:30:36 Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 16:16:06 +, > Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > You mean as in nVidia drivers taking a week or so to adjust to new kernel > > version and reach rpmfusion? Wow, that's a bummer! So you suggest we all > > opt to use ATI drivers which don't work at all on current X for several > > months now, basically since F12 appeared? And who knows when (or if) they > > will actually start supporting modern X? > > If one is trying to test out new kernels, it's a real bummer to have > drivers blocking that. Well, ok, but if you are testing out new kernels, the open-source 2D driver shoud do, right? Or are you typically testing kernels and 3D graphics simultaneously? > I think the current suggestion is to buy Intel or ATI hardware and use > the open source drivers When we speak of 2D, all three manufacturers (nVidia, ATI and Intel) are supported by open source drivers, more or less good enough. When we speak of 3D, ATI just doesn't have decent open source drivers, regardless of available specs (radeon(hd) works only on older cards, if you are lucky), while Intel's 3D hardly deserves to be called "accelerated". So I don't see the point of encouraging ATI and Intel, since if you want serious 3D, only nVidia provides (at least closed source) drivers that actually work. Intel 3D and obsolete ATI 3D using radeon driver are not considered "serious 3D", at least from my perspective. Encouraging that would be like encouraging the use of Pentium 3 over Quad Core just because it is known to work. > in order to reward Intel and ATI for providing > specs to their hardware Would you please provide the link with the specs for the ATI HD family of cards? Maybe I'm out of the loop here... > so that open source drivers can be written with > less effort. So where are those drivers for ATI cards? The closed fglrx drivers don't work on F12, and I don't know about any usable open source ones. Just please don't say radeon(hd), it simply doesn't support modern cards yet... > Not everyone is in a position to do that. If you do buy > nVidia, it would be nice to still try out Nouveau once in a while > (especially on test days for it) to help find and document problems. I agree with supporting Nouveau wholeheartedly. They are progressing quite fast now, and are doing a great job to RE all the features of nVidia hardware. If only radeon drivers were being developed that fast... Given the alleged availability of hardware specs, I'd expect the driver to progress much faster than it actually does. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 13:45:39 -0500, > Bill Davidsen wrote: > >> I don't need or want 3D anything, just a working display which doesn't >> crash. >> Note that 2.6.33-rc[56] seem somewhat better, although some adventures in >> cmdline options are needed to get there (not the same on each laptop). I'm >> 1/3 >> on servers, and 0/3 on VM. I'm told my aborts are being worked on, which is >> nice >> but not helpful. >> > > That sucks. Fedora should be prioritizing having working drivers in spite > of the upheavel going on with the underpinnings. Hopefully the board will > try to help here. > > I think the issue is that the drivers in F12 are already out of date, and that unless the 2.6.33 (and later) video drivers are backported, or the kernel is upgraded, there won't be a lot of joy. > As an individual you have some bad choices: > Stay with F11 (possibly even after it is out of support). > Switch to another distribution. > Use the vesa driver and have slow graphics. > Live with frequent crashes. > > I don't see the vesa driver as an issue for me, I'm not a gamer, I don't need 3D, and the performance in some cases is faster than the current in-kernel drivers, at least for simple tests like glxgears or displaying a large image. The other issue, touchpad lockup with F12 kernels newer than 2.6.31.5 is more of an issue, again the more recent kernel.org kernels work okay. Suspend has stopped working on both laptops still running F12, worked up to 2.6.31.5, doesn't resume now. All reported. > If you stick with Fedora, making sure there are bugs filed with adequate > documentation for the various graphics card will at least make someone aware > of the problem. Participating in the appropriate test days provides another > chance to get the attention of a graphics driver developer and the possibility > of fast turn around for testing possible fixes might help. Bringing the issue > up with the board may encourage them to be more proactive in dealing with > this problem with Fedora. > > I think much of this is the state of the kernel drivers, and as one of the bug reports notes, the RT guys screwed up the dbus (from memory) logic again (his phrase), which is why Synaptics doesn't work. Why metacity crashes all the time on some machines is also "reported but not fixed." -- Bill Davidsen "We can't solve today's problems by using the same thinking we used in creating them." - Einstein -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sunday 31 January 2010 18:54:17 you wrote: > On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 16:35 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > === > > > > I'm using the same binary driver as you are. > > === > > Do take notice that I -am- using the nVidia binary drivers. Consider the notice taken. ;-) > Far worse, as we are all using the nVidia driver instead of helping the > Nouveau debug their driver, if/when thing go horribly wrong, switching > to Nouveau driver will be extremely painful to say the least. > > As I said before, like me, you can choose to use binary drivers, but > keep in mind that by doing it, were all slowly cutting the branch from > under our collective feet. Yes, I agree basically. In the long run, it would of course be much better to have a working open source driver for nVidia. But remember that things can go horribly wrong even with open source drivers (Intel in F10 time springs to mind), so that's not a big assurance. That said, I don't feel the current F12 switch to nouveau to be so extremely painful. Ok, the driver is not ready yet for 3D, but 2D support is there and works quite well, AFAIK. And the driver is being developed very very actively --- I'm monitoring the nouveau mailing list, and can see new bugfixes and patches *literally* every day. It looks very promising and I believe 3D will be RE'd and functional sooner than people expect. On some cards it already works --- as reported, Compiz already works (with minor issues) on nv40 and nv50 generations. Take a look at http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FrontPage#Status and http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FeatureMatrix Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sunday 31 January 2010 20:18:15 Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 08:27:04 -0700, > "Christopher A. Williams" wrote: > > Nouveau only supports 2D, and the OpenSource Radeon driver has had at > > least as many ...ummm issues as the proprietary driver. > > > > So, if you need true 3D graphics support without a lot of issues, at the > > moment nVidia with their proprietary driver is your best option. This, > > of course, could change with the next set of releases from any of the > > players. > > The problem with this recommendation is that it doesn't take into account > that once you have bought the hardware, you are committed to it. True, but over a course of several years (say, since Fedora came to life, let's not go into RH days) nVidia drivers have been available and solid *most* of the time, while ATI drivers have been quite the opposite. Both had issues, but statistically nVidia appears more reliable. Simply put, over the course of several years they provided quite decent support for their own hardware and drivers, unlike ATI. So when you are investing and commiting to some hardware, nVidia seems to be a safer bet, despite the closed source. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 13:45:39 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote: > > I don't need or want 3D anything, just a working display which doesn't crash. > Note that 2.6.33-rc[56] seem somewhat better, although some adventures in > cmdline options are needed to get there (not the same on each laptop). I'm > 1/3 > on servers, and 0/3 on VM. I'm told my aborts are being worked on, which is > nice > but not helpful. That sucks. Fedora should be prioritizing having working drivers in spite of the upheavel going on with the underpinnings. Hopefully the board will try to help here. As an individual you have some bad choices: Stay with F11 (possibly even after it is out of support). Switch to another distribution. Use the vesa driver and have slow graphics. Live with frequent crashes. If you stick with Fedora, making sure there are bugs filed with adequate documentation for the various graphics card will at least make someone aware of the problem. Participating in the appropriate test days provides another chance to get the attention of a graphics driver developer and the possibility of fast turn around for testing possible fixes might help. Bringing the issue up with the board may encourage them to be more proactive in dealing with this problem with Fedora. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 16:01:45 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > As for 3D and closed source drivers... If you buy a nVidia card, you can use > their closed source drivers, and they basically Just Work. If you buy an ATI > card, you can use... oops, sorry... you *cannot* use their closed source > drivers, because they do not support your version of X. Or you can opt for > open source radeon driver... oops, sorry... you *cannot* opt for radeon(hd) > driver because ATI did *not* disclose the specs for their HD family of cards. > > > And as you know, ATI is very open-source-friendly, unlike those nVidia guys... > nVidia's stance is that they neither help nor hinder the Nouveau project. That could certainly be worse. They could be trying to actively prevent that effort. ATI provides documentation for their cards. That is better than having them write their own open source drivers. They did provide specs for their HD family cards. My memory is that there are some features that aren't documented related to DRM on multimedia. (Doing that may risk them getting in trouble with the MPAA and related trade groups.) I am also not sure of whether all of the r800 (evergreen) documentation is out yet. But I believe that the documentation for chips through the r700 series is available. > So when it comes to 3D support for Linux and Fedora, some talk the talk, some > walk the walk. Decide for yourself who is more useful to you. And different people disagree on the way to measure walking the walk and come to different conclusions about which companies are doing this and which aren't. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 16:16:06 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > You mean as in nVidia drivers taking a week or so to adjust to new kernel > version and reach rpmfusion? Wow, that's a bummer! So you suggest we all opt > to use ATI drivers which don't work at all on current X for several months > now, basically since F12 appeared? And who knows when (or if) they will > actually start supporting modern X? If one is trying to test out new kernels, it's a real bummer to have drivers blocking that. In my case I have to deal with Digium not upstreaming their GPL'd drivers so that they can dual license them. (This makes no sense to me for them, as if someone is using dahdi, they are running on a GPL'd kernel and there doesn't seem to be any need for the dual licensing shennagins.) Typically I try rebuilding the driver myself, but sometimes that doesn't work. > You are saying that we should abandon closed source drivers for cards which > work and are well supported by nVidia, and instead use closed source drivers > which don't work and have lousy (if any) Linux support from ATI? Call me > stupid, but I don't understand your argument. I think the current suggestion is to buy Intel or ATI hardware and use the open source drivers in order to reward Intel and ATI for providing specs to their hardware so that open source drivers can be written with less effort. Not everyone is in a position to do that. If you do buy nVidia, it would be nice to still try out Nouveau once in a while (especially on test days for it) to help find and document problems. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 08:27:04 -0700, "Christopher A. Williams" wrote: > > Nouveau only supports 2D, and the OpenSource Radeon driver has had at > least as many ...ummm issues as the proprietary driver. > > So, if you need true 3D graphics support without a lot of issues, at the > moment nVidia with their proprietary driver is your best option. This, > of course, could change with the next set of releases from any of the > players. The problem with this recommendation is that it doesn't take into account that once you have bought the hardware, you are committed to it. Unless you throw away your video cards every year or so, there is a good case to be made the buying an r5xx radeon right now makes more sense. The r5xx cards are supported OK now and will continue to be improved going forward for the forseeable future. If you buy nVidia and want 3d features, you are stuck with the proprietary driver until Nouveau provides them which might be two years out. And you can't easily jump back to radeon. With all of the things going on with Mesa and KMS, Fedora might be a particularly unfriendly distribution for trying to use nVidia's drivers. > Accepting reduced function - especially when needed - for the sake of > OpenSource dedication will lead down the path of people not adopting > OpenSource software. We must face the reality that most people could > care less about the type of license their software has, compared to if > it meets their particular needs. As the CEO of Black and Decker once put > it, people don't buy quarter-inch drills; they buy quarter-inch holes. I think for people like that, steering them toward Ubuntu is better than having them use Fedora. Fedora's fast rate of change and stance on freedom don't mix very well with people who just want things to work. I do believe that getting better open source graphics drivers should be a priority for Fedora. Since that is a matter of doing work and not something undoable because of software patents. Redhat already has at least four employees that are pretty much graphics system developers. I don't know that it is reasonable to expect them to hire more. But it would be nice if they could get a few that were more focused on getting 3d features working, in addition to the people whose first priority is keeping the 2d functionallity working. Also remember that when dealing with corporations, cheering them on, generally means buying their products. If you are buying nVidia hardware now out of practicallity, they are the company you are cheering on and not the ones supporting open source efforts. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On 01/31/2010 08:16 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> You mean as in nVidia drivers taking a week or so to adjust to new kernel
> version and reach rpmfusion? Wow, that's a bummer! So you suggest we all opt
> to use ATI drivers which don't work at all on current X for several months
> now, basically since F12 appeared? And who knows when (or if) they will
> actually start supporting modern X?
>
> You are saying that we should abandon closed source drivers for cards which
> work and are well supported by nVidia, and instead use closed source drivers
> which don't work and have lousy (if any) Linux support from ATI? Call me
> stupid, but I don't understand your argument.
Misrepresenting someone's position makes you look foolish to people who
actually listened and understood what they said.
Kevin did not suggest the use of ATI's proprietary drivers; he suggested
that such recommendations ("proprietary drivers in general") are a poor
choice.
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Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 16:35 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: === > > I'm using the same binary driver as you are. === Do take notice that I -am- using the nVidia binary drivers. > > - Legacy driver releases tend to lag the "current" driver badly. In a > > desktop, you could always switch to the latest version, but you laptop > > still carries a GF5600M, you're more or less screwed. > > Umm, my initial comment that spawned this part of the thread was about advice > on buying *new* cards, not buying *old* cards. If you want to buy an old > card, > feel free to buy a new Intel card instead, you'll get the same level of > performance. ... I was commenting on Ed's "nVidia is problem free" comment. (Even though I really admire their efforts to keep their drivers working and current - and I'm not being cynical) > > > - Xen kernel were never supported by nVidia. > > You want 3D graphics in a virtual environment? To what purpose? Playing > quake3 > on a mail/web/file-server under a virtual machine? *Cough Desktop virtualization without VT/SVN *Cough > > > - Having to compile a kernel without 4K stacks for months, until nVidia > > added support for it. > > As compared to ATI not providing support for current version of X for the > same > number of months and still counting? Tricky question: what is easier --- > recompiling a kernel, or downgrading X? :-) See below... > > > Again, nVidia is doing an admirable job at keeping their drivers > > stable and current (compared to say, ATI or Intel Poulsbo), but claiming > > the using them do not come at a price, is ridicules, at best. > > Fair enough. But this price is lower then in ATI and Intel case, at any rate. > It's not perfect, but is just the best offer available. I do not disagree (hence, I'm using it to power my 7300, 8600 and 9800GTX+ cards...) I am saying that Kevin is right, in the long run it -will- bite us in the back-side. It doesn't really matter if it'll happen when Xen gets integrated into Fedora's -stock- kernel or the next time Xorg/kernel/glibc completely breaks the API forcing nVidia to rewrite their driver. Either way, it's just a matter of time. Far worse, as we are all using the nVidia driver instead of helping the Nouveau debug their driver, if/when thing go horribly wrong, switching to Nouveau driver will be extremely painful to say the least. As I said before, like me, you can choose to use binary drivers, but keep in mind that by doing it, were all slowly cutting the branch from under our collective feet. - Gilboa -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Kevin Kofler wrote: > Marko Vojinovic wrote: >> Since you don't mind using closed-source drivers... :-) If the graphics >> card in your machine is not integrated (ie. is replaceable), my advice is >> to go buy an nVidia card. They at least provide nonzero support for >> contemporary Linux. And if it is integrated, next time you go buy a >> motherboard/laptop --- do choose carefully... ;-) > > Recommending proprietary drivers in general and NVidia in particular is a > very bad idea, they'll come to bite you in the ass sooner or later, and with > NVidia there's no alternative with OpenGL support. (Nouveau reportedly works > great for 2D these days though.) > I'm not sure where you're going with this one, are you suggesting just using the vesa drivers, or throwing out all the laptops which worked with F11 and starting over? And if the latter, where is the form to apply for funding to cover the cost. I have not gotten the F12 ATI drivers to work with any ATI laptop, zero for four, Intel based, AMD based, X doesn't work. I don't need or want 3D anything, just a working display which doesn't crash. Note that 2.6.33-rc[56] seem somewhat better, although some adventures in cmdline options are needed to get there (not the same on each laptop). I'm 1/3 on servers, and 0/3 on VM. I'm told my aborts are being worked on, which is nice but not helpful. -- Bill Davidsen "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sunday 31 January 2010 14:25:39 Gilboa Davara wrote: > On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 20:30 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: > > In my case, none of the above... > > Oh, come on! > I'm using the same binary driver as you are. > And yes, nVidia binary driver, while -far- better than ATI's driver, Lesser of two evils, right? ;-) > has > had it's share of issues. > E.g. > - Initial F12 xorg + nVidia driver combo resulted in unbelievably slow > performance under KDE. But this is worked around by now. Unbelievable, given the fact that those are actually closed source drivers, yes? :-) > - Legacy driver releases tend to lag the "current" driver badly. In a > desktop, you could always switch to the latest version, but you laptop > still carries a GF5600M, you're more or less screwed. Umm, my initial comment that spawned this part of the thread was about advice on buying *new* cards, not buying *old* cards. If you want to buy an old card, feel free to buy a new Intel card instead, you'll get the same level of performance. > - Xen kernel were never supported by nVidia. You want 3D graphics in a virtual environment? To what purpose? Playing quake3 on a mail/web/file-server under a virtual machine? > - Having to compile a kernel without 4K stacks for months, until nVidia > added support for it. As compared to ATI not providing support for current version of X for the same number of months and still counting? Tricky question: what is easier --- recompiling a kernel, or downgrading X? :-) > Again, nVidia is doing an admirable job at keeping their drivers > stable and current (compared to say, ATI or Intel Poulsbo), but claiming > the using them do not come at a price, is ridicules, at best. Fair enough. But this price is lower then in ATI and Intel case, at any rate. It's not perfect, but is just the best offer available. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sunday 31 January 2010 09:52:58 Kevin Kofler wrote: > Ed Greshko wrote: > > Kevin Kofler wrote: > >> Recommending proprietary drivers in general and NVidia in particular is > >> a very bad idea, they'll come to bite you in the ass sooner or later, > >> and with NVidia there's no alternative with OpenGL support. (Nouveau > >> reportedly works great for 2D these days though.) > > > > I've been waiting for over 3 years now to get bitten.. > > Either you were extremely lucky or you didn't even realize your problems > were caused by the proprietary drivers or you're just putting up with the > problems (such as the driver not supporting the current Fedora when it gets > released, it happened several times with NVidia too) without realizing > they're avoidable. You mean as in nVidia drivers taking a week or so to adjust to new kernel version and reach rpmfusion? Wow, that's a bummer! So you suggest we all opt to use ATI drivers which don't work at all on current X for several months now, basically since F12 appeared? And who knows when (or if) they will actually start supporting modern X? You are saying that we should abandon closed source drivers for cards which work and are well supported by nVidia, and instead use closed source drivers which don't work and have lousy (if any) Linux support from ATI? Call me stupid, but I don't understand your argument. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sunday 31 January 2010 09:28:40 Kevin Kofler wrote: > Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > Since you don't mind using closed-source drivers... :-) If the graphics > > card in your machine is not integrated (ie. is replaceable), my advice is > > to go buy an nVidia card. They at least provide nonzero support for > > contemporary Linux. And if it is integrated, next time you go buy a > > motherboard/laptop --- do choose carefully... ;-) > > Recommending proprietary drivers in general and NVidia in particular is a > very bad idea, they'll come to bite you in the ass sooner or later, and > with NVidia there's no alternative with OpenGL support. (Nouveau > reportedly works great for 2D these days though.) There is a status matrix for nouveau: http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FeatureMatrix and reverse-engineering is progressing quite well, on a daily basis, according to info I see on their mailing list. As for 3D and closed source drivers... If you buy a nVidia card, you can use their closed source drivers, and they basically Just Work. If you buy an ATI card, you can use... oops, sorry... you *cannot* use their closed source drivers, because they do not support your version of X. Or you can opt for open source radeon driver... oops, sorry... you *cannot* opt for radeon(hd) driver because ATI did *not* disclose the specs for their HD family of cards. And as you know, ATI is very open-source-friendly, unlike those nVidia guys... So when it comes to 3D support for Linux and Fedora, some talk the talk, some walk the walk. Decide for yourself who is more useful to you. And there is of course Intel, which does provide open source 3D drivers. But Intel hardware is just, well, inferior when it comes to performance. If I need serious 3D graphics, nVidia and ATI are only choices. If I don't, then it doesn't matter much, any graphics card will do (and there are open source 2D drivers for all available cards these days). Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 08:27:04 -0700 Christopher A. Williams wrote: > Nouveau only supports 2D, and the OpenSource Radeon driver has had at > least as many ...ummm issues as the proprietary driver. Hell, I wish there was a stable working radeon driver that only supported 2D so I could get reliable 2D with the default driver. At home, radeon works OK (I guess I have one of the cards where the driver happens to work), but at work, radeon crashes about six times a day on a good day. I finally got a system that can stay up and run usable 2D by switching to radeonhd, turning on nomodeset, and disabling lots of stuff like dri and using the shadowfb acceleration mode. After doing that my work system has stayed up for about 3 days now, so it seems much better. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 16:25 +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote: > On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 20:30 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: > > In my case, none of the above... > > Oh, come on! > I'm using the same binary driver as you are. > And yes, nVidia binary driver, while -far- better than ATI's driver, has > had it's share of issues. > E.g. > - Initial F12 xorg + nVidia driver combo resulted in unbelievably slow > performance under KDE. > - Legacy driver releases tend to lag the "current" driver badly. In a > desktop, you could always switch to the latest version, but you laptop > still carries a GF5600M, you're more or less screwed. > - Xen kernel were never supported by nVidia. > - Having to compile a kernel without 4K stacks for months, until nVidia > added support for it. > > Again, nVidia is doing an admirable job at keeping their drivers > stable and current (compared to say, ATI or Intel Poulsbo), but claiming > the using them do not come at a price, is ridicules, at best. Points well taken. But there's a flip side to this as well. Nouveau only supports 2D, and the OpenSource Radeon driver has had at least as many ...ummm issues as the proprietary driver. So, if you need true 3D graphics support without a lot of issues, at the moment nVidia with their proprietary driver is your best option. This, of course, could change with the next set of releases from any of the players. Accepting reduced function - especially when needed - for the sake of OpenSource dedication will lead down the path of people not adopting OpenSource software. We must face the reality that most people could care less about the type of license their software has, compared to if it meets their particular needs. As the CEO of Black and Decker once put it, people don't buy quarter-inch drills; they buy quarter-inch holes. As for me, I will happily and fervently use the OpenSource drivers once they meet my specific needs. Until then, it makes no sense for me to do so. So, in the meantime, I will cheer them on and hope they will someday. I will help test new features when I'm able to, and provide feedback. But when it comes time to do the job I need to do, I will choose those tools which meet the need. Period. Right now, that means I use the nVidia proprietary drivers on my desktop and blacklist Nouveau. On my RadeonHD capable laptop, I switch (thank goodness it has dual graphics processor options) to use the built-in Intel chipset and OpenSOurce Intel drivers instead. I'll switch back when one of the ATI driver teams actually gets their act together and produces something stable, functional, and reliable. I recently had to switch to Sun Java from OpenJDK for similar reasons. A Nortel provided, Java based management utility simply puked on OpenJDK. It works great on Sun Java. Better to use Sun Java so I can configure important function on my Nortel switch than to be a fanatic for OpenJDK and not get the job done... Cheers, Chris -- = "You see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I dream things as they never were and ask, 'Why not?'" -- George Bernard Shaw -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Gilboa Davara wrote: > On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 20:30 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: > >> In my case, none of the above... >> > > Oh, come on! > I'm using the same binary driver as you are. > And yes, nVidia binary driver, while -far- better than ATI's driver, has > had it's share of issues. > E.g. > - Initial F12 xorg + nVidia driver combo resulted in unbelievably slow > performance under KDE. > - Legacy driver releases tend to lag the "current" driver badly. In a > desktop, you could always switch to the latest version, but you laptop > still carries a GF5600M, you're more or less screwed. > - Xen kernel were never supported by nVidia. > - Having to compile a kernel without 4K stacks for months, until nVidia > added support for it. > > Again, nVidia is doing an admirable job at keeping their drivers > stable and current (compared to say, ATI or Intel Poulsbo), but claiming > the using them do not come at a price, is ridicules, at best. > > > I said, "in my case" none of the above. So, unless you know the details of "my case" -- Having to manually track the satellite. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 20:30 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: > In my case, none of the above... Oh, come on! I'm using the same binary driver as you are. And yes, nVidia binary driver, while -far- better than ATI's driver, has had it's share of issues. E.g. - Initial F12 xorg + nVidia driver combo resulted in unbelievably slow performance under KDE. - Legacy driver releases tend to lag the "current" driver badly. In a desktop, you could always switch to the latest version, but you laptop still carries a GF5600M, you're more or less screwed. - Xen kernel were never supported by nVidia. - Having to compile a kernel without 4K stacks for months, until nVidia added support for it. Again, nVidia is doing an admirable job at keeping their drivers stable and current (compared to say, ATI or Intel Poulsbo), but claiming the using them do not come at a price, is ridicules, at best. - Gilboa -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Kevin Kofler wrote: > Ed Greshko wrote: > > >> Kevin Kofler wrote: >> >>> Recommending proprietary drivers in general and NVidia in particular is a >>> very bad idea, they'll come to bite you in the ass sooner or later, and >>> with NVidia there's no alternative with OpenGL support. (Nouveau >>> reportedly works great for 2D these days though.) >>> >>> >>> >> I've been waiting for over 3 years now to get bitten.. >> > > Either you were extremely lucky or you didn't even realize your problems > were caused by the proprietary drivers or you're just putting up with the > problems (such as the driver not supporting the current Fedora when it gets > released, it happened several times with NVidia too) without realizing > they're avoidable. Probably all 3 of those. > > In my case, none of the above... -- Never use "etc." -- it makes people think there is more where there is not or that there is not space to list it all, etc. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Ed Greshko wrote: > Kevin Kofler wrote: >> Recommending proprietary drivers in general and NVidia in particular is a >> very bad idea, they'll come to bite you in the ass sooner or later, and >> with NVidia there's no alternative with OpenGL support. (Nouveau >> reportedly works great for 2D these days though.) >> >> > I've been waiting for over 3 years now to get bitten.. Either you were extremely lucky or you didn't even realize your problems were caused by the proprietary drivers or you're just putting up with the problems (such as the driver not supporting the current Fedora when it gets released, it happened several times with NVidia too) without realizing they're avoidable. Probably all 3 of those. Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Kevin Kofler wrote: > Marko Vojinovic wrote: > >> Since you don't mind using closed-source drivers... :-) If the graphics >> card in your machine is not integrated (ie. is replaceable), my advice is >> to go buy an nVidia card. They at least provide nonzero support for >> contemporary Linux. And if it is integrated, next time you go buy a >> motherboard/laptop --- do choose carefully... ;-) >> > > Recommending proprietary drivers in general and NVidia in particular is a > very bad idea, they'll come to bite you in the ass sooner or later, and with > NVidia there's no alternative with OpenGL support. (Nouveau reportedly works > great for 2D these days though.) > > I've been waiting for over 3 years now to get bitten.. -- "You're not allowed to call them dinosaurs anymore." said Yo-less. "It's speciesist. You have to call them pre-petroleum persons." (Johnny and the Bomb) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Marko Vojinovic wrote: > Since you don't mind using closed-source drivers... :-) If the graphics > card in your machine is not integrated (ie. is replaceable), my advice is > to go buy an nVidia card. They at least provide nonzero support for > contemporary Linux. And if it is integrated, next time you go buy a > motherboard/laptop --- do choose carefully... ;-) Recommending proprietary drivers in general and NVidia in particular is a very bad idea, they'll come to bite you in the ass sooner or later, and with NVidia there's no alternative with OpenGL support. (Nouveau reportedly works great for 2D these days though.) Kevin Kofler -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
Tom Horsley wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:02:46 -0600 > Dale Dellutri wrote: > >> Note that I worked around my bug by adding "nomodeset" to the kernel boot >> line. > > Nope. If I turn off modesetting, it has even bigger problems. I seem > to recall I couldn't even get X to start the last time I tried it. > The default setting seem to work better than any others, but > the default now crashes 5 or 6 times during the day (was only > about once a week before updates). > > What I really would like is to be able to convince the vesa > driver to do 1920x1200 resolution, and just use a nice stable > non-accelerated non-3d driver until the fancy drivers catch > up, but I don't think anyone is interested in developing drivers > that are stable, but can't make windows shake like jello :-). Agree totally, the Radeon support sucks on every machine I have, and even the ones which work are slower than the vesa driver. The vesa driver seems usefully fast, will do video even on an old Celeron. nomodeset video=vesafb I don't know what the upper limit of vesa is, but it's higher than 1366x768, I'm running my monitor there and at least one more step up was available. Since I want to be able to read the screen on a 32in monitor, I stopped where I am, and it runs fine. -- Bill Davidsen "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:02:46 -0600 Dale Dellutri wrote: > Note that I worked around my bug by adding "nomodeset" to the kernel boot > line. Nope. If I turn off modesetting, it has even bigger problems. I seem to recall I couldn't even get X to start the last time I tried it. The default setting seem to work better than any others, but the default now crashes 5 or 6 times during the day (was only about once a week before updates). What I really would like is to be able to convince the vesa driver to do 1920x1200 resolution, and just use a nice stable non-accelerated non-3d driver until the fancy drivers catch up, but I don't think anyone is interested in developing drivers that are stable, but can't make windows shake like jello :-). -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Tue, 2010-01-26 at 18:58 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > Since you don't mind using closed-source drivers... :-) If the graphics card > in your machine is not integrated (ie. is replaceable), my advice is to go > buy > an nVidia card. They at least provide nonzero support for contemporary Linux. > And if it is integrated, next time you go buy a motherboard/laptop --- do > choose carefully... ;-) My radeon used to work perfectly. It has been badly broken by the last few Fedora releases. It seems to get worse with each release. It would seem that even choosing carefully is not enough when what works today may not work tomorrow. Perhaps I should "carefully choose" a new graphics card for every Fedora release! :-/ Brian -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: > My poor system at work generated this bug shortly after > I installed f12 on it: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=541387 > Your bug report 541387 seems to be the same as mine: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=557194 Note that I worked around my bug by adding "nomodeset" to the kernel boot line. radeon.modeset=0 might also work. -- Dale Dellutri -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.
On Tuesday 26 January 2010 18:01:24 Tom Horsley wrote: > Is there any remote chance that AMD/ATI are ever going > to produce a catalyst driver that can be built on the > fedora 12 kernel? It might work better... Since you don't mind using closed-source drivers... :-) If the graphics card in your machine is not integrated (ie. is replaceable), my advice is to go buy an nVidia card. They at least provide nonzero support for contemporary Linux. And if it is integrated, next time you go buy a motherboard/laptop --- do choose carefully... ;-) Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
