Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 15:28:44 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: [] Do you have the bug reference? I'd rather find out before dnf leaves me with a non-bootable system. The reason I'm harping on about it is that in a thread on this list a few months back the developers didn't seem to think it was a bug. H I have two oldish machines, which I took to the shop (I don't speak hardware) because neither would finish booting. They called me in a day or two, saying neither was worth fixing. They didn't say what was wrong, and I didn't think to ask. Fwiw, I've been running yum and dnf more or less alternately since I heard of dnf. Is there a site somewhere, explaining this bug, at a level I'm likely to be able to follow? -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User Remember I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Wed, 2014-06-18 at 20:40 +, Beartooth wrote: On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 15:28:44 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: [] Do you have the bug reference? I'd rather find out before dnf leaves me with a non-bootable system. The reason I'm harping on about it is that in a thread on this list a few months back the developers didn't seem to think it was a bug. H I have two oldish machines, which I took to the shop (I don't speak hardware) because neither would finish booting. They called me in a day or two, saying neither was worth fixing. They didn't say what was wrong, and I didn't think to ask. Fwiw, I've been running yum and dnf more or less alternately since I heard of dnf. Is there a site somewhere, explaining this bug, at a level I'm likely to be able to follow? The feature of dnf that I complained about is that it could remove every kernel, leaving you with an unbootable system (that was said to be the situation at the time of the earlier thread) but it doesn't sound like a cause of your booting problems. Complete absence of a kernel would be more noticeable than a boot not finishing. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/14 04:42, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 16:37, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote: So there is still a considerable difference in what each of them does here, I ran into this the other day. It would seem the way dnf handles caching is different from yum. Not 100% sure/convinced this fixed my problembut after running dnf clean expire-cache it then reported the same thing as yum. Yes, [root@box10 bobg]# dnf clean expire-cache Yields the same update list this morning, only two items in this case. But it seems to eat up any time saved by running dnf instead of yum. Bob -- http://www.qrz.com/db/W2BOD box10 Fedora-20/64bit Linux/XFCE -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/17/2014 06:40 PM, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote: On 06/16/14 04:42, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 16:37, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote: So there is still a considerable difference in what each of them does here, I ran into this the other day. It would seem the way dnf handles caching is different from yum. Not 100% sure/convinced this fixed my problembut after running dnf clean expire-cache it then reported the same thing as yum. Yes, [root@box10 bobg]# dnf clean expire-cache Yields the same update list this morning, only two items in this case. But it seems to eat up any time saved by running dnf instead of yum. Bob All that command is doing is making the next dnf process refetch all its repository metadata which commands dnf clean dbcache and dnf clean metadata and dnf clean all will do, as well as sometimes dnf check-update re-downloads all the repository metadata. It has also been suggested that just changing the dnf config to make the time between downloads the same as what yum uses would rectify the issue, but that would mean that dnf would have to have a service continually running to refresh the cache like yum does. Does dnf have such a service? regards, Steve attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/14 00:27, Rejy M Cyriac wrote: On 06/09/2014 06:00 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 09:59:15AM +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: till October) will give folks plenty of time to hone their dnf skills. IMO, for many (majority?) it will be a drop-in replacement for yum. Yes, that's the plan. There are some differences but they are all well documented. Is the plan to actually rename dnf to yum at that point? If it is truly a drop-in replacement, that seems like the less disruptive approach for users (and scripts) everywhere. Additionally, in remembrance of Seth Vidal, I would hate to see Fedora lose 'yum'. Even if Seth would probably find that silly, it's important to me. +1 Let us keep at least the name, if not the code. I have been a happy user of yum, and have observed it to be innovative enough. By the way, 'dnf erase kernel' scares me :-O [root@box10 bobg]# dnf update Dependencies resolved. Nothing to do. and then: [root@box10 bobg]# yum update Loaded plugins: ... snip ,,, Dependencies Resolved = Package Arch Version RepositorySize = Updating: NetworkManager x86_64 1:0.9.9.0-39.git20131003.fc20 updates 1.2 M NetworkManager-glib x86_64 1:0.9.9.0-39.git20131003.fc20 updates 348 k ghostscript x86_64 9.14-3.fc20 updates 4.4 M gnome-abrt x86_64 0.3.7-1.fc20 updates 213 k qt x86_64 1:4.8.6-9.fc20 updates 4.7 M qt-x11 x86_64 1:4.8.6-9.fc20 updates 13 M thunderbird x86_64 24.6.0-1.fc20 updates 45 M yumexnoarch 3.0.15-1.fc20 updates 431 k Transaction Summary = Upgrade 8 Packages Total download size: 68 M Is this ok [y/d/N]: y So there is still a considerable difference in what each of them does here, Bob -- http://www.qrz.com/db/W2BOD box10 Fedora-20/64bit Linux/XFCE -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/14 16:37, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote: So there is still a considerable difference in what each of them does here, I ran into this the other day. It would seem the way dnf handles caching is different from yum. Not 100% sure/convinced this fixed my problembut after running dnf clean expire-cache it then reported the same thing as yum. -- Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. -- Dandemis -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/14 04:42, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 16:37, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote: So there is still a considerable difference in what each of them does here, I ran into this the other day. It would seem the way dnf handles caching is different from yum. Not 100% sure/convinced this fixed my problembut after running dnf clean expire-cache it then reported the same thing as yum. I will try that next time, thanks. Bob -- http://www.qrz.com/db/W2BOD box10 Fedora-20/64bit Linux/XFCE -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 14. 6. 2014 at 11:05:03, Stephen Morris wrote: On 06/14/2014 12:05 AM, Aleksandar Kostadinov wrote: Tom Horsley wrote, On 06/07/2014 03:57 PM (EEST): On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 07:47:37 -0500 Bruno Wolff III wrote: For one thing the depsolving algorithm used by yum is slow. Not so an ordinary human could notice it compared (for example) to the time it takes to rebuild the rpms from the deltas. Not everybody is runnig fedora on a 2GB+ machine. I welcome the move to more efficient package management. Especially if it is mostly backward compatible. Most users shouldn't notice. I've just installed python3-dnf and python3-dnf-plugins-core and when I run dnf I get the following messages: dnf --version Traceback (most recent call last): File /usr/bin/dnf, line 35, in module from dnf.cli import main ImportError: No module named dnf.cli If instead I install dnf and dnf-plugins-core, which are the python2.7 versions they run fine. I have manually also installed the python-cli packages which was not instead when installing either version of dnf. That sounds like a bug and if you used up-to-date version of dnf, you should definitely report it in bugzilla. Thanks Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 6/16/2014 1:05 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 12:27, Rejy M Cyriac wrote: By the way, 'dnf erase kernel' scares me :-O FWIW, it has been suggested that the DNF developers would consider this a bug if the number of CC's on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1049310 was over 40. It now stands at 40. But, it wouldn't hurt to have others add themselves to the list to increase the #. 43 now but it is marked CLOSED WONTFIX. So you think that they will change their mind? -- David -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/14 19:00, David wrote: On 6/16/2014 1:05 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 12:27, Rejy M Cyriac wrote: By the way, 'dnf erase kernel' scares me :-O FWIW, it has been suggested that the DNF developers would consider this a bug if the number of CC's on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1049310 was over 40. It now stands at 40. But, it wouldn't hurt to have others add themselves to the list to increase the #. 43 now but it is marked CLOSED WONTFIX. So you think that they will change their mind? Let's just put it this way They may or they may not, but adding to the cc list couldn't hurt. Who knows, it may take a large paid user of RHEL suffering an avoidable failure to convince them. -- Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. -- Dandemis -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Sun, 2014-06-15 at 21:12 +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 06/09/14 16:28, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Do you have the bug reference? I'd rather find out before dnf leaves me with a non-bootable system. The reason I'm harping on about it is that in a thread on this list a few months back the developers didn't seem to think it was a bug. It has not been fixed. See bug 1049310. Ales wrote the following If there's enough CCs in this bug (40) I will consider the proper way to implement something that prevents 'dnf erase kernel' from removing the running kernel. So if you want that behaviour (the way yum does it), make a CC to that bug. Done. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 6/16/2014 7:19 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 19:00, David wrote: On 6/16/2014 1:05 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 12:27, Rejy M Cyriac wrote: By the way, 'dnf erase kernel' scares me :-O FWIW, it has been suggested that the DNF developers would consider this a bug if the number of CC's on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1049310 was over 40. It now stands at 40. But, it wouldn't hurt to have others add themselves to the list to increase the #. 43 now but it is marked CLOSED WONTFIX. So you think that they will change their mind? Let's just put it this way They may or they may not, but adding to the cc list couldn't hurt. Who knows, it may take a large paid user of RHEL suffering an avoidable failure to convince them. Perhaps. Have you any knowledge of a Bugzilla marked CLOSED WONTFIX being changed? As for a large paid user of RHEL having a problem. That could happen but I can also see the admin looking for work with a serious bad mark on his/her resume. :-) -- David -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 16. 6. 2014 at 07:49:55, David wrote: On 6/16/2014 7:19 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 19:00, David wrote: On 6/16/2014 1:05 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 12:27, Rejy M Cyriac wrote: By the way, 'dnf erase kernel' scares me :-O FWIW, it has been suggested that the DNF developers would consider this a bug if the number of CC's on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1049310 was over 40. It now stands at 40. But, it wouldn't hurt to have others add themselves to the list to increase the #. 43 now but it is marked CLOSED WONTFIX. So you think that they will change their mind? Let's just put it this way They may or they may not, but adding to the cc list couldn't hurt. Who knows, it may take a large paid user of RHEL suffering an avoidable failure to convince them. Perhaps. Have you any knowledge of a Bugzilla marked CLOSED WONTFIX being changed? We originally didn't want to implement anything like this for three reasons: a) in our opinion, dnf should not do the thinking for admins b) the real impact of this feature is questionable c) we don't want dnf to contain ugly hacks from the beginning ad b) how many times have this feature actually saved you from erasing the kernel? In 10+ years using Linux I have never managed to do this accidentally. That being said, if users accidentally instruct yum to erase the running kernel on a regular basis, we are will reconsider this argument. Hence the poll ... feel free to reopen the bug too, otherwise it might get off the radar. ad c) if we are to implement this, it will be a part of systematic solution, no workarounds or hackish constructs in the code base. It might take a while longer but the difference will be worth the effort, I'm sure. Thanks Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
Hi On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: ad b) how many times have this feature actually saved you from erasing the kernel? In 10+ years using Linux I have never managed to do this accidentally. You are assuming limited by your own experience that this is done accidentally. On the contrary, because of yum's behavior, its perfectly fine to quickly do a yum remove kernel to get rid of older kernels and retain the current one. I do this from time to time if I have to play around with third party kernel modules and don't want the other kernels interfering with that process. The protected packages feature in general is also useful not because anyone would do yum remove glibc directly but because other scripts that remove duplicate packages have been known to have bugs in the past which removed the critical packages instead and the protected packages feature would prevent such bugs from causing irrecoverable damage. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 14:45:17 +0200, Jan Zelený jzel...@redhat.com wrote: ad b) how many times have this feature actually saved you from erasing the kernel? In 10+ years using Linux I have never managed to do this accidentally. That being said, if users accidentally instruct yum to erase the running kernel on a regular basis, we are will reconsider this argument. Hence the poll ... feel free to reopen the bug too, otherwise it might get off the radar. Note that even updates can bite you if dnf will always be removing the oldest kernel, even if that is the one you are running. There may be kernel or dracut problems keeping the newer installed kernels from being usable on a particular system. Also if the running kernel is removed, you won't be able to load any modules that are already loaded. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
RE: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/14 04:42, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 16:37, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote: So there is still a considerable difference in what each of them does here, I ran into this the other day. It would seem the way dnf handles caching is different from yum. Not 100% sure/convinced this fixed my problembut after running dnf clean expire-cache it then reported the same thing as yum. I will try that next time, thanks. Bob Dnf defaults to 48h metadata expiry. Yum default is much shorter (I found a reference saying it is 1.5h, but don't know if this is still true). You can set metadata_expire in /etc/dnf/dnf.conf - I dropped it to 6h. NOTICE DISCLAIMER This email including attachments (this Document) is confidential and may contain legally privileged information. If you have received this Document in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this Document from your system without using, copying, disclosing or disseminating it or placing any reliance upon its contents. We cannot accept liability for any breaches of confidence arising through use of this Document. The information contained in this Document is provided solely for information purposes on an as is basis without warranty of any kind, either express or implied, including without limitation any implied warranty of satisfactory or merchantable quality, fitness for a particular purpose or freedom from error or infringement. The user relies on the information contained herein, and its accuracy or otherwise, entirely at their own risk. Any opinions expressed in this Document are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Telsis. We will not accept responsibility for any commitments made by our employees, agents or representatives outside the scope of our business. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/2014 03:23 PM, Paul Knox-Kennedy wrote: On 06/16/14 04:42, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/16/14 16:37, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote: So there is still a considerable difference in what each of them does here, I ran into this the other day. It would seem the way dnf handles caching is different from yum. Not 100% sure/convinced this fixed my problembut after running dnf clean expire-cache it then reported the same thing as yum. I will try that next time, thanks. Bob Dnf defaults to 48h metadata expiry. Yum default is much shorter (I found a reference saying it is 1.5h, but don't know if this is still true). You can set metadata_expire in /etc/dnf/dnf.conf - I dropped it to 6h. /etc/dnf/dnf.conf [main] gpgcheck=1 installonly_limit=100 best=1 deltarpm=1 debuglevel=10 errorlevel=10 metadata_expire=0 metadata_timer_sync=0 Regardless, its output is still ugly compared to yum daisies. Long live the yum! poma -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 16. 6. 2014 at 09:19:21, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Hi On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: ad b) how many times have this feature actually saved you from erasing the kernel? In 10+ years using Linux I have never managed to do this accidentally. You are assuming limited by your own experience that this is done accidentally. And hence the poll Thanks Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/2014 04:04 PM, Jan Zelený wrote: On 16. 6. 2014 at 09:19:21, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Hi On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: ad b) how many times have this feature actually saved you from erasing the kernel? In 10+ years using Linux I have never managed to do this accidentally. You are assuming limited by your own experience that this is done accidentally. And hence the poll Thanks Jan 80!? :) poma -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 04:04:24PM +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: You are assuming limited by your own experience that this is done accidentally. And hence the poll I'm a little skeptical that the poll will reach the right segment of responders to get a valuable response. -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/14 14:45, Jan Zelený wrote: We originally didn't want to implement anything like this for three reasons: a) in our opinion, dnf should not do the thinking for admins It should have sensible defaults so that a user can not hose the system by accident. What would the use case be to remove the running kernel? If no use case exist, then why have that option exposed to the user? b) the real impact of this feature is questionable Try 'dnf remove kernel' and see what happens. Then try to fix the problem. c) we don't want dnf to contain ugly hacks from the beginning I do not regard sensible defaults as a hack. ad b) how many times have this feature actually saved you from erasing the kernel? In 10+ years using Linux I have never managed to do this accidentally. Well, with 'yum erase kernel' you can not accidentally remove the running kernel, so what is your point? :) feel free to reopen the bug too, otherwise it might get off the radar. How do I, as a normal user, re-open a bug? Can not see any way more than cloning it. Is that how it's supposed to be done? (Google gave no conclusive answer) Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 16.06.2014 22:02, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 06/16/14 14:45, Jan Zelený wrote: ... ad b) how many times have this feature actually saved you from erasing the kernel? In 10+ years using Linux I have never managed to do this accidentally. Well, with 'yum erase kernel' you can not accidentally remove the running kernel, so what is your point? :) Checkmate! :) poma -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/2014 05:45 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: ad b) how many times have this feature actually saved you from erasing the kernel? I can remember needing to get rid of all kernels except for the running one on at least one occasion. (It was the oldest one and for some reason the two newer ones weren't working.) Simply using yum erase kernel did the trick because it ignored the one in use. Yes, I could have done it by specifying the exact names, but this was much simpler. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 02:45:17PM +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: ad b) how many times have this feature actually saved you from erasing the kernel? In 10+ years using Linux I have never managed to do this accidentally. That being said, if users accidentally instruct yum to erase the running kernel on a regular basis, we are will reconsider this argument. Hence the poll ... feel free to reopen the bug too, otherwise it might get off the radar. I don't know about the kernel option in specific, but the _general_ package protection option (initially a plugin, and then integrated into the core as it proved to be generally useful) has saved me many times, and probably more importantly, I'm sure it's saved me saved me on support for systems where the user has root access and or where students admin the machines. -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 10:02:52PM +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 06/16/14 14:45, Jan Zelený wrote: feel free to reopen the bug too, otherwise it might get off the radar. How do I, as a normal user, re-open a bug? Can not see any way more than cloning it. Is that how it's supposed to be done? (Google gave no conclusive answer) To do this, switch the bug state back to ASSIGNED. -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/14 16:28, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Do you have the bug reference? I'd rather find out before dnf leaves me with a non-bootable system. The reason I'm harping on about it is that in a thread on this list a few months back the developers didn't seem to think it was a bug. It has not been fixed. See bug 1049310. Ales wrote the following If there's enough CCs in this bug (40) I will consider the proper way to implement something that prevents 'dnf erase kernel' from removing the running kernel. So if you want that behaviour (the way yum does it), make a CC to that bug. Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 06:00 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 09:59:15AM +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: till October) will give folks plenty of time to hone their dnf skills. IMO, for many (majority?) it will be a drop-in replacement for yum. Yes, that's the plan. There are some differences but they are all well documented. Is the plan to actually rename dnf to yum at that point? If it is truly a drop-in replacement, that seems like the less disruptive approach for users (and scripts) everywhere. Additionally, in remembrance of Seth Vidal, I would hate to see Fedora lose 'yum'. Even if Seth would probably find that silly, it's important to me. +1 Let us keep at least the name, if not the code. I have been a happy user of yum, and have observed it to be innovative enough. By the way, 'dnf erase kernel' scares me :-O -- Regards, Rejy M Cyriac (rmc) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/16/14 12:27, Rejy M Cyriac wrote: By the way, 'dnf erase kernel' scares me :-O FWIW, it has been suggested that the DNF developers would consider this a bug if the number of CC's on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1049310 was over 40. It now stands at 40. But, it wouldn't hurt to have others add themselves to the list to increase the #. -- Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. -- Dandemis -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
Tom Horsley wrote, On 06/07/2014 03:57 PM (EEST): On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 07:47:37 -0500 Bruno Wolff III wrote: For one thing the depsolving algorithm used by yum is slow. Not so an ordinary human could notice it compared (for example) to the time it takes to rebuild the rpms from the deltas. Not everybody is runnig fedora on a 2GB+ machine. I welcome the move to more efficient package management. Especially if it is mostly backward compatible. Most users shouldn't notice. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/13/2014 02:53 PM, Tim wrote: On Fri, 2014-06-13 at 08:06 +1000, Stephen Morris wrote: I've checked the installonly_limit in yum.conf and it is set to 3, which now confuses me because I've never had more than one kernel installed even when doing updates with yum. That's never been my experience. But, do you really mean that there's only one kernel because you've directly checked that? Or are you thinking that there was only one kernel because the GRUB menu didn't show you any others to choose from to boot with? I checked how many kernels were physically in /boot and there was only ever 1, which annoyed me because I'd just moved from Mandriva to Fedora 18 where Mandriva would not remove any old kernels at all and I used to manually retain 3 kernel versions, even with smartpm 1.4.1 from upstream, which I'm using under Fedora as well. Smartpm doesn't use yum for its backend it uses rpm, so the functionality should be the same under both distros, especially when its all script based. regards, Steve attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/14/2014 12:05 AM, Aleksandar Kostadinov wrote: Tom Horsley wrote, On 06/07/2014 03:57 PM (EEST): On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 07:47:37 -0500 Bruno Wolff III wrote: For one thing the depsolving algorithm used by yum is slow. Not so an ordinary human could notice it compared (for example) to the time it takes to rebuild the rpms from the deltas. Not everybody is runnig fedora on a 2GB+ machine. I welcome the move to more efficient package management. Especially if it is mostly backward compatible. Most users shouldn't notice. I've just installed python3-dnf and python3-dnf-plugins-core and when I run dnf I get the following messages: dnf --version Traceback (most recent call last): File /usr/bin/dnf, line 35, in module from dnf.cli import main ImportError: No module named dnf.cli If instead I install dnf and dnf-plugins-core, which are the python2.7 versions they run fine. I have manually also installed the python-cli packages which was not instead when installing either version of dnf. regards, Steve attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Wed, 2014-06-11 at 15:58 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote: On 06/11/2014 03:48 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: I have three kernels installed (current, previous and previous previous :-) which I think is the default with yum though it can be changed by editing installonly_limit in /etc/yum.conf. If smartpm says that kernels can't coexist it's clearly wrong. So do I. I also have a kmod-nvidia installed for each of them. Ditto. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/12/2014 10:26 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Wed, 2014-06-11 at 15:58 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote: On 06/11/2014 03:48 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: I have three kernels installed (current, previous and previous previous :-) which I think is the default with yum though it can be changed by editing installonly_limit in /etc/yum.conf. If smartpm says that kernels can't coexist it's clearly wrong. So do I. I also have a kmod-nvidia installed for each of them. Ditto. Thanks for the responses Joe and Patrick, I've checked the installonly_limit in yum.conf and it is set to 3, which now confuses me because I've never had more than one kernel installed even when doing updates with yum. It has been this way for me since Fedora 18 which is when I first started using Fedora. I have 2 installed at the moment because the last update I did installed a new kernel and I did that update with DNF to try it out for the first time. I've run an installed package check with smartpm and it is telling me the 2 kernel and kernel-dev packages can't coexist so I'll be raising a bug report on that with its developers. Looking at the way DNF did its installs it doesn't seem to be any different to yum other than it is obvious that DNF does parallel downloads. DNF looks to have also reused some of the YUM code base as when you issue the command dnf --help it displays the following output: --version show Yum version and exit regards, Steve poc attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/13/2014 08:06 AM, Stephen Morris wrote: On 06/12/2014 10:26 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Wed, 2014-06-11 at 15:58 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote: On 06/11/2014 03:48 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: I have three kernels installed (current, previous and previous previous :-) which I think is the default with yum though it can be changed by editing installonly_limit in /etc/yum.conf. If smartpm says that kernels can't coexist it's clearly wrong. So do I. I also have a kmod-nvidia installed for each of them. Ditto. Thanks for the responses Joe and Patrick, I've checked the installonly_limit in yum.conf and it is set to 3, which now confuses me because I've never had more than one kernel installed even when doing updates with yum. It has been this way for me since Fedora 18 which is when I first started using Fedora. I have 2 installed at the moment because the last update I did installed a new kernel and I did that update with DNF to try it out for the first time. I've run an installed package check with smartpm and it is telling me the 2 kernel and kernel-dev packages can't coexist so I'll be raising a bug report on that with its developers. I've fixed the issue with smartpm reporting that kernels can't coexist by telling it to allow multiple versions. I'm confused as to why it complained about multiple kernels but not multiple kmod.nvidia packages, and why exactly the same smartpm application run under Mandriva was quite happy to allow multiple kernels without any configuration but under Fedora its not. That is something that probably can't be resolved here and is off topic for this thread, so I apologize for that. regards, Steve Looking at the way DNF did its installs it doesn't seem to be any different to yum other than it is obvious that DNF does parallel downloads. DNF looks to have also reused some of the YUM code base as when you issue the command dnf --help it displays the following output: --version show Yum version and exit regards, Steve poc attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Fri, 2014-06-13 at 08:06 +1000, Stephen Morris wrote: I've checked the installonly_limit in yum.conf and it is set to 3, which now confuses me because I've never had more than one kernel installed even when doing updates with yum. That's never been my experience. But, do you really mean that there's only one kernel because you've directly checked that? Or are you thinking that there was only one kernel because the GRUB menu didn't show you any others to choose from to boot with? -- tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp Linux 3.14.5-200.fc20.i686 #1 SMP Mon Jun 2 15:03:19 UTC 2014 i686 All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists. George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/10/2014 11:18 PM, Stephen Morris wrote: Can it be configured to turn that functionality off if desired, sometimes it is quicker to download packages individually rather than in parallel. If there is a specific situation when this is the case, experienced by a nontrivial number of users, we will consider it. Also note that there's: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1032541 Ales -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/11/2014 07:51 AM, Joe Zeff wrote: On 06/10/2014 02:13 PM, Stephen Morris wrote: I'm not saying there is any benefit of one over the other, all I am saying is that the package manager I currently use seems to be using the latter method when upgrades to the kmod.nvidia packages are required. I use yumex every morning to keep my desktop up-to-date, and I use kmod-nvidia. When there's a new kernel, there's generally also a new kmod to match it, and the two get installed together. When a new kernel gets installed, the oldest one I have gets removed, and yumex reports that it's removing the matching kmod as a dependency of the kernel. I'm not sure, but I think that if I just used yum from a CLI, it would report things the same way. What package manager are you using? Hi Joe, I am using Smartpm as my package manager as the documentation for Smartpm indicates it is more efficient than yum (I used Smartpm under another distro which was also considering standardizing on Smartpm as well) and in practice it seems to live up to its claims. Smartpm always reports updates to the kmod.nvidia packages as removal of the old package and install of the new package, whereas Yum and DNF seem to report the update as an update. It seems to be only the kmod.nvidia packages that it reports this way. The only time I use Yum to install packages is when there seems to be too many packages to update for Smartpm's transaction calculations to work (I've been in the situation where I had left the calculation of what needed to be done running for an hour without it ever finishing). I have also been in the situation where I have had to hold off on system updates because a new kernel had been released but the kmod.nvidia package hadn't been updated at the same time. One of the claims from Smartpm is that Yum tends to inflate its updates and updates packages that don't really need to be, whereas Smartpm checks all installed package dependencies etc. and if your package mix means that it would be a bad move to update a specific package then it won't, and, depending on your point of view I have occasionally seen evidence of that in terms of the volume of packages going to be updated by both. Just as a side issue, you mentioned that kernel updates remove the older kernel, I have noticed the same thing and I have also had Smartpm tell me that a new kernel can't coexist with the previous kernel. Is there any way to change this, like is done in other distros, as this sort of functionality annoys me, from the point of view that I have often been in the situation where my system refused to boot from a new kernel because of a kernel panic, so I had to fall back to the previous kernel to boot so I could then remove the new kernel and wait for a further kernel update to fix the issues. I would like to make the decision of how many kernels I want to keep rather than the distro forcing what I can do. regards, Steve attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/11/2014 05:38 PM, Ales Kozumplik wrote: On 06/10/2014 11:18 PM, Stephen Morris wrote: Can it be configured to turn that functionality off if desired, sometimes it is quicker to download packages individually rather than in parallel. If there is a specific situation when this is the case, experienced by a nontrivial number of users, we will consider it. Also note that there's: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1032541 Hi Ales, It wasn't a requirement on my part, given that the environment I program in at work provides a parameter to run sql's multi-threaded and automatically multi-threads sorts if it is efficient to do so, and, on servers multi-threading can be extremely beneficial depending on backend storage arrays, I was just querying whether DNF had similar functionality that was parametised so that the end user could turn that functionality on or off as desired. regards, Steve Ales attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Thu, 2014-06-12 at 07:35 +1000, Stephen Morris wrote: Just as a side issue, you mentioned that kernel updates remove the older kernel, I have noticed the same thing and I have also had Smartpm tell me that a new kernel can't coexist with the previous kernel. Is there any way to change this, like is done in other distros, as this sort of functionality annoys me, from the point of view that I have often been in the situation where my system refused to boot from a new kernel because of a kernel panic, so I had to fall back to the previous kernel to boot so I could then remove the new kernel and wait for a further kernel update to fix the issues. I would like to make the decision of how many kernels I want to keep rather than the distro forcing what I can do. I have three kernels installed (current, previous and previous previous :-) which I think is the default with yum though it can be changed by editing installonly_limit in /etc/yum.conf. If smartpm says that kernels can't coexist it's clearly wrong. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/11/2014 03:48 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: I have three kernels installed (current, previous and previous previous :-) which I think is the default with yum though it can be changed by editing installonly_limit in /etc/yum.conf. If smartpm says that kernels can't coexist it's clearly wrong. So do I. I also have a kmod-nvidia installed for each of them. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 11:13 PM, Stephen Morris wrote: I have the akmod.nvidia and kmod.nvidia proprietary drivers installed and when they are updated, the package manager I use tells me about the packages that have to be uninstalled in order to do the update (this package manager seems to uninstall to old kmod package and installs the new one rather than update as such), but when I look at what dnf would do if I used that, it just tells me it is going to update the kmod driver and mentions nothing about the peripheral packages that will be removed. Is this normal functionality or is it a Beta testing issue? Stephen, what would you say a difference between 'updating' and 'removing and insatlling new version' is? What is the benefit of the latter in your specific case? Ales -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 9. 6. 2014 at 17:12:37, Andre Robatino wrote: Jonathan Dieter jdieter at lesbg.com writes: The list of missing yum options is both outdated and incomplete. For example, it's missing includepkgs (a repository option), for people who need to access specific packages from non-Fedora compatible repos. On the other hand, it includes deltarpm, although dnf has supported this for a while now. Deltarpms are working, but, as far as I can see, need to be manually enabled. If we're going for consistency, deltarpms should be enabled by default if deltarpm is installed. Personally, I agree with this, since they reduce bandwidth for the mirrors (whether they help at the user's end depends on the user's hardware and bandwidth). I also think --best should be the default, since in Rawhide/Branched people need to know about broken deps to deal with them (hiding them isn't good, when a broken dep can prevent 100 packages that need testing from updating), while in stable releases they aren't supposed to happen anyway (hopefully better automation will actually ensure this). But I'm more concerned with things that are completely missing (especially if the survey doesn't include them) than about defaults that users have control over. In case you have some features you would like us to include, please search bugzilla for the list of (both opened and closed) RFEs. If you don't find the RFE in the list, feel free to open a request so we can track what people actually want. Your other option is to use the form to let us know what are you missing and what is your use case (don't forget to include the second part, that's actually the more important one). Thanks Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 9. 6. 2014 at 15:17:47, T.C. Hollingsworth wrote: On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:58 AM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 06/09/2014 12:48 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: Nope, yumex has only a very little to do with yum, it's a separate project. You can use PackageKit or the GNOME software center which will both soon use the same underlying libraries dnf uses. And what do I use if I don't use Gnome but want a GUI? In KDE you can use Apper. (And possibly Muon in the future, which was developed by the Kubuntu folks but recently gained PackageKit support as well.) Not only will it work fine with DNF or yum but in Fedora 21 it will also get the fancy new screenshots and application descriptions that are available in gnome-software currently. If your favorite desktop doesn't have a PacakgeKit client, yell at them. It's been around for years now and is supported by all the major distributions. (I'm rather surprised the MATE folks haven't forked gnome-packagekit already...) Also, originally DNF was supposed to keep some compatibility with the yum python API. If that is still the case, porting yumex to DNF may be within the realm of possibility. Some compatibility yes but the problem is that yum's internals have historically been abused a lot so there is no way of knowing what might have broken. However dnf's API is well documented so porting any application should not be a big problem. Thanks Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 11:25 PM, Stephen Morris wrote: Just another question, is DNF multi-threaded? From my perspective it would be ideal if it could be configured to specify how many parallel downloads to start (like other download managers I have used under windows) and like some compilers I have used, configure how many threads to use to allow non-dependent installs to run in parallel. In my view that would potentially speed up the install process. Yes, even though DNF is not a download manager, neither a compiler and YMMV on Windows, it downloads packages in parallel. Ales -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 9 June 2014 23:17, T.C. Hollingsworth tchollingswo...@gmail.com wrote: major distributions. (I'm rather surprised the MATE folks haven't forked gnome-packagekit already...) I don't think they need to, I'm still maintaining gnome-packagekit for people not wanting (or who can't) run gnome-software. Richard -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, 9 Jun 2014 17:28:07 -0500 Justin Brown justin.br...@fandingo.org wrote: I've been using DNF for a year or so primarily. The one gripe that I have is that DNF tends to avoid giving useful information with broken packages. A required package version isn't available? Yum will print out tons of information on which package failed, what version is installed, and what version is available through yum. On the other hand, DNF just gives up without any useful output. Absolutely no information that there was a package conflict, much less what the details are. With Fedora embracing community repositories through COPR, the default packaging tool absolutely needs to present this information to users. If package conflicts with the local package, without this info, will never be solved. Update of one of the conflicting package can be more important then the other. BR, Bob -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 9. 6. 2014 at 15:28:44, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2014-06-09 at 09:45 +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: On 6. 6. 2014 at 16:56:18, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, 2014-06-06 at 14:46 +0200, Ales Kozumplik wrote: Hello, The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss- in-d nf/ Can the default configuration still leave you without a working kernel or has that been fixed? IIRC there was a bug that has been fixed. If you encounter this again, feel free to let us know. Do you have the bug reference? I'd rather find out before dnf leaves me with a non-bootable system. The reason I'm harping on about it is that in a thread on this list a few months back the developers didn't seem to think it was a bug. There were a few bugs in this area but I think this is the one with the highest impact: 1087534 Obviously if you specifically instruct dnf to erase your kernel, it will do so. Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
Jan Zelený jzeleny at redhat.com writes: In case you have some features you would like us to include, please search bugzilla for the list of (both opened and closed) RFEs. If you don't find the RFE in the list, feel free to open a request so we can track what people actually want. I already reported the missing includepkgs option as https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1055910 . But it should still be listed on the survey, otherwise there's no way of knowing how many people need it. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
Andre Robatino robatino at fedoraproject.org writes: I already reported the missing includepkgs option as https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1055910 . Sorry, that's not my bug, mine was closed as a dupe of this one. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/10/2014 04:51 PM, Ales Kozumplik wrote: On 06/09/2014 11:13 PM, Stephen Morris wrote: I have the akmod.nvidia and kmod.nvidia proprietary drivers installed and when they are updated, the package manager I use tells me about the packages that have to be uninstalled in order to do the update (this package manager seems to uninstall to old kmod package and installs the new one rather than update as such), but when I look at what dnf would do if I used that, it just tells me it is going to update the kmod driver and mentions nothing about the peripheral packages that will be removed. Is this normal functionality or is it a Beta testing issue? Stephen, what would you say a difference between 'updating' and 'removing and insatlling new version' is? What is the benefit of the latter in your specific case? Hi Ales, I'm not saying there is any benefit of one over the other, all I am saying is that the package manager I currently use seems to be using the latter method when upgrades to the kmod.nvidia packages are required. What I am querying is that with the last update I did a couple of days ago the package manager said that there were 2 other packages that needed to be removed for the updates to happen as well as the removal of the package being updated and mentioned that the new version was going to be installed rather than updated, but when I tried DNF it mentioned that it was going to update the kmod.nvidia package and mentioned nothing about the 2 additional packages being removed. Hence looking at the summary stats from both packages DNF said there was 1 more update and 1 less install than what the package manager I normally use said, plus the package manager I normally use also said there were 2 packages to remove whereas DNF said there were none. regards, Steve Ales attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/10/2014 06:01 PM, Ales Kozumplik wrote: On 06/09/2014 11:25 PM, Stephen Morris wrote: Just another question, is DNF multi-threaded? From my perspective it would be ideal if it could be configured to specify how many parallel downloads to start (like other download managers I have used under windows) and like some compilers I have used, configure how many threads to use to allow non-dependent installs to run in parallel. In my view that would potentially speed up the install process. Yes, even though DNF is not a download manager, neither a compiler and YMMV on Windows, it downloads packages in parallel. Can it be configured to turn that functionality off if desired, sometimes it is quicker to download packages individually rather than in parallel. Does it install packages in parallel and is that configurable as well as to whether undertake the parallel install at all or the maximum number of threads to be used for installs similar to what the c compiler allows? regards, Steve Ales attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/10/2014 02:13 PM, Stephen Morris wrote: I'm not saying there is any benefit of one over the other, all I am saying is that the package manager I currently use seems to be using the latter method when upgrades to the kmod.nvidia packages are required. I use yumex every morning to keep my desktop up-to-date, and I use kmod-nvidia. When there's a new kernel, there's generally also a new kmod to match it, and the two get installed together. When a new kernel gets installed, the oldest one I have gets removed, and yumex reports that it's removing the matching kmod as a dependency of the kernel. I'm not sure, but I think that if I just used yum from a CLI, it would report things the same way. What package manager are you using? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 6. 6. 2014 at 16:56:18, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, 2014-06-06 at 14:46 +0200, Ales Kozumplik wrote: Hello, The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-d nf/ Can the default configuration still leave you without a working kernel or has that been fixed? IIRC there was a bug that has been fixed. If you encounter this again, feel free to let us know. Thanks Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 6. 6. 2014 at 09:20:33, Luke Nath wrote: Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 14:46:23 +0200 From: akozu...@redhat.com To: de...@lists.fedoraproject.org; yum-de...@lists.baseurl.org; users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22! Hello, The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-d nf/ Ales I have never used dnf. Does it have a GUI front end like Yumex? Nope, yumex has only a very little to do with yum, it's a separate project. You can use PackageKit or the GNOME software center which will both soon use the same underlying libraries dnf uses. Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 7. 6. 2014 at 13:08:42, Timothy Murphy wrote: Sudhir Khanger wrote: The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-d nf/ Why not Vote for yum vs dnf? What exactly is wrong with yum? It has worked faultlessly and painlessly for me for years, with addons to deal with every conceivable problem. If there is some problem with it, why not simply deal with that problem instead of inventing a completely new program? Because the code base of yum is 10+ years old and is very difficult to maintain. Dnf was forked from yum with a goal to refactor the code base so it can be around for another 10+ years. Thanks Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 12:48 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: Nope, yumex has only a very little to do with yum, it's a separate project. You can use PackageKit or the GNOME software center which will both soon use the same underlying libraries dnf uses. And what do I use if I don't use Gnome but want a GUI? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 8. 6. 2014 at 09:45:44, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/06/14 20:46, Ales Kozumplik wrote: The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-d nf/ Thanks for the heads up. Knowing it will be F22 (with F21 not even due out till October) will give folks plenty of time to hone their dnf skills. IMO, for many (majority?) it will be a drop-in replacement for yum. Yes, that's the plan. There are some differences but they are all well documented. http://akozumpl.github.io/dnf/cli_vs_yum.html Thanks Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/14 15:59, Jan Zelený wrote: On 8. 6. 2014 at 09:45:44, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/06/14 20:46, Ales Kozumplik wrote: The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-d nf/ Thanks for the heads up. Knowing it will be F22 (with F21 not even due out till October) will give folks plenty of time to hone their dnf skills. IMO, for many (majority?) it will be a drop-in replacement for yum. Yes, that's the plan. There are some differences but they are all well documented. http://akozumpl.github.io/dnf/cli_vs_yum.html Yes, of course they are well documented and as we knoweveryone reads documentation. :-) While I do understand the plan and it will happen, some decisions have me scratching my head. One in particular is dnf erase kernel deletes all packages called kernel In Yum, the running kernel is spared. There is no reason to keep this in DNF, the user can always specify concrete versions on the command line, e.g.: dnf erase kernel-3.9.4 I suppose the reasoning behind this is Well the user can already shoot themselves in the foot with rm -rf / so why not give them another tool to commit suicide. :-) As we know, all end users are intelligent and never make typing errors and never make changes to their systems after sitting in the bar until 3AM. What the heck. It will at least give some interesting problems for the mailing list to deal with. :-) -- Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. -- Dandemis -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 9. 6. 2014 at 00:58:31, Joe Zeff wrote: On 06/09/2014 12:48 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: Nope, yumex has only a very little to do with yum, it's a separate project. You can use PackageKit or the GNOME software center which will both soon use the same underlying libraries dnf uses. And what do I use if I don't use Gnome but want a GUI? I think PackageKit is not GNOME centric, is it? Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/08/2014 02:02 AM, Timothy Murphy wrote: For me, the essential properties of yum are simplicity and reliability. Thanks Timothy for bringing this up. The focus in DNF development is on those priorities just as much as on speed. Users experience very little problems with the stable releases (according to our bugzilla) and we have dropped many features and options that we consider too obscure for the users (compare the man pages). Ales -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 09:59:15AM +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: till October) will give folks plenty of time to hone their dnf skills. IMO, for many (majority?) it will be a drop-in replacement for yum. Yes, that's the plan. There are some differences but they are all well documented. Is the plan to actually rename dnf to yum at that point? If it is truly a drop-in replacement, that seems like the less disruptive approach for users (and scripts) everywhere. Additionally, in remembrance of Seth Vidal, I would hate to see Fedora lose 'yum'. Even if Seth would probably find that silly, it's important to me. -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 04:14:01PM +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: dnf erase kernel deletes all packages called kernel I think this and the protected-packages behavior in general is important to carry forward. -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/14 20:30, Matthew Miller wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 04:14:01PM +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: dnf erase kernel deletes all packages called kernel I think this and the protected-packages behavior in general is important to carry forward. Make sure you make your opinion known here. http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-dnf/ -- Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. -- Dandemis -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-dnf/ The list of missing yum options is both outdated and incomplete. For example, it's missing includepkgs (a repository option), for people who need to access specific packages from non-Fedora compatible repos. On the other hand, it includes deltarpm, although dnf has supported this for a while now. Sorry for replying out of thread, but I normally use Gmane to reply, and for some reason this thread never showed up there. (Normally there's just a delay, but it's past that point now.) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, 9 Jun 2014 08:30:01 -0400 Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 09:59:15AM +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: till October) will give folks plenty of time to hone their dnf skills. IMO, for many (majority?) it will be a drop-in replacement for yum. Yes, that's the plan. There are some differences but they are all well documented. Is the plan to actually rename dnf to yum at that point? If it is truly a drop-in replacement, that seems like the less disruptive approach for users (and scripts) everywhere. Additionally, in remembrance of Seth Vidal, I would hate to see Fedora lose 'yum'. Even if Seth would probably find that silly, it's important to me. I agree with this sentiment. (Btw, I have no idea what all this hullaballoo about yum is about. It is sometimes slow, but that is why I have multiple tabs/windows -- carry on while it loads if needed. Of course, different people have different comfort levels.) Ranjan Protect your computer files with professional cloud backup. Get PCRx Backup and upload unlimited files automatically. Learn more at http://backup.pcrx.com/mail -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 09:06:32PM +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: dnf erase kernel deletes all packages called kernel I think this and the protected-packages behavior in general is important to carry forward. Make sure you make your opinion known here. http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-dnf/ I did, although I suppose I can vote more than once if it helps. :) -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/14 21:47, Matthew Miller wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 09:06:32PM +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: dnf erase kernel deletes all packages called kernel I think this and the protected-packages behavior in general is important to carry forward. Make sure you make your opinion known here. http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-dnf/ I did, although I suppose I can vote more than once if it helps. :) Yes. But make sure you use an assumed name. :-) -- Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. -- Dandemis -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 10:03:06PM +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: I did, although I suppose I can vote more than once if it helps. :) Yes. But make sure you use an assumed name. :-) For the record, I'm not actually voting more than once. :) -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
I'm using version 0.3.11 and the proxy options are not used when update, install, etc. On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 8:15 AM, Andre Robatino robat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-dnf/ The list of missing yum options is both outdated and incomplete. For example, it's missing includepkgs (a repository option), for people who need to access specific packages from non-Fedora compatible repos. On the other hand, it includes deltarpm, although dnf has supported this for a while now. Sorry for replying out of thread, but I normally use Gmane to reply, and for some reason this thread never showed up there. (Normally there's just a delay, but it's past that point now.) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org -- JP -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, 2014-06-09 at 09:45 +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: On 6. 6. 2014 at 16:56:18, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, 2014-06-06 at 14:46 +0200, Ales Kozumplik wrote: Hello, The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-d nf/ Can the default configuration still leave you without a working kernel or has that been fixed? IIRC there was a bug that has been fixed. If you encounter this again, feel free to let us know. Do you have the bug reference? I'd rather find out before dnf leaves me with a non-bootable system. The reason I'm harping on about it is that in a thread on this list a few months back the developers didn't seem to think it was a bug. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, 2014-06-09 at 00:58 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote: On 06/09/2014 12:48 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: Nope, yumex has only a very little to do with yum, it's a separate project. You can use PackageKit or the GNOME software center which will both soon use the same underlying libraries dnf uses. And what do I use if I don't use Gnome but want a GUI? You can run most Gnome programs under any desktop as long as you have the libraries. I'm using Evolution to reply to this and my desktop is KDE. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 02:30 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 09:59:15AM +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: till October) will give folks plenty of time to hone their dnf skills. IMO, for many (majority?) it will be a drop-in replacement for yum. Yes, that's the plan. There are some differences but they are all well documented. Is the plan to actually rename dnf to yum at that point? 1. Is there a yum compatibility test suite? It dnf is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, not having one would seem grossly silly and should be treated as full stop show stopper. 2. If dnf is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, a more reasonable approach but to force dnf upon all users by brute force, would be to apply alternatives. If it is truly a drop-in replacement, that seems like the less disruptive approach for users (and scripts) everywhere. Agreed. I regret, but so far, dnf I do not see much sense in dnf. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 9 June 2014 15:41, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: 1. Is there a yum compatibility test suite? It dnf is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, not having one would seem grossly silly and should be treated as full stop show stopper. From someone that's had to work with the yum API in the past, I think such a thing would be very difficult if not impossible to achieve. The yum API grew organically and never really had any kind of published API docs or ABI stability promises. yum as a command line tool works well enough modulo multilib and depsolving, yum as a python API, not so much. Richard. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 9. 6. 2014 at 16:41:59, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 06/09/2014 02:30 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 09:59:15AM +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: till October) will give folks plenty of time to hone their dnf skills. IMO, for many (majority?) it will be a drop-in replacement for yum. Yes, that's the plan. There are some differences but they are all well documented. Is the plan to actually rename dnf to yum at that point? 1. Is there a yum compatibility test suite? It dnf is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, not having one would seem grossly silly and should be treated as full stop show stopper. 2. If dnf is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, a more reasonable approach but to force dnf upon all users by brute force, would be to apply alternatives. If it is truly a drop-in replacement, that seems like the less disruptive approach for users (and scripts) everywhere. Agreed. I regret, but so far, dnf I do not see much sense in dnf. Dnf is not supposed to be 100% drop-in replacement (hence the list of incompatibilities in the dnf documentation). I'd rather say that it's supposed to be as compatible as possible, focusing on the most widely used features first. Thanks Jan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 05:00 PM, Richard Hughes wrote: On 9 June 2014 15:41, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: 1. Is there a yum compatibility test suite? It dnf is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, not having one would seem grossly silly and should be treated as full stop show stopper. From someone that's had to work with the yum API in the past, I think such a thing would be very difficult if not impossible to achieve. I am not sufficiently familiar with yum's internal API to be able to have a strong opinion. However, when looking at it from a broader angle, your claim/statement then would qualify all compatibility claims on dnf to be cheating. The yum API grew organically and never really had any kind of published API docs or ABI stability promises. yum as a command line tool works well enough modulo multilib and depsolving, yum as a python API, not so much. Well, I start to wonder how people had been able to implement yum plugins? Do have at least /usr/bin/yum compatibilty-test suite? Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 04:15 PM, Andre Robatino wrote: The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-dnf/ The list of missing yum options is both outdated and incomplete. For example, it's missing includepkgs (a repository option), for people who need to access specific packages from non-Fedora compatible repos. On the other hand, it includes deltarpm, although dnf has supported this for a while now. Deltarpms are working, but, as far as I can see, need to be manually enabled. If we're going for consistency, deltarpms should be enabled by default if deltarpm is installed. Jonathan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Fri, Jun 06, 2014 at 02:46:23PM +0200, Ales Kozumplik wrote: Hello, The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-dnf/ Is the command still going to be called yum? It appears from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/ReplaceYumWithDNF that everyone will have to start writing dnf install ..., which (if true) invalidates a vast amount of existing documentation and scripts. Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com libguestfs lets you edit virtual machines. Supports shell scripting, bindings from many languages. http://libguestfs.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
Jonathan Dieter jdieter at lesbg.com writes: The list of missing yum options is both outdated and incomplete. For example, it's missing includepkgs (a repository option), for people who need to access specific packages from non-Fedora compatible repos. On the other hand, it includes deltarpm, although dnf has supported this for a while now. Deltarpms are working, but, as far as I can see, need to be manually enabled. If we're going for consistency, deltarpms should be enabled by default if deltarpm is installed. Personally, I agree with this, since they reduce bandwidth for the mirrors (whether they help at the user's end depends on the user's hardware and bandwidth). I also think --best should be the default, since in Rawhide/Branched people need to know about broken deps to deal with them (hiding them isn't good, when a broken dep can prevent 100 packages that need testing from updating), while in stable releases they aren't supposed to happen anyway (hopefully better automation will actually ensure this). But I'm more concerned with things that are completely missing (especially if the survey doesn't include them) than about defaults that users have control over. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/07/14 12:19, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Hi On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA Those of us who have to consider usage are willing to wait for the rpm rebuilding process Don't think you can speak for all of us. I don't prefer to wait at all and want the process to go as fast as it can. I have to deal with many more updates as a package maintainer and slowing me down will reduce the amount of time I can spend getting users the updates they want. So it likely affects you indirectly as well. Rahul Well it appears that we can both have it our way. I simple added deltarpm=1 to /etc/dnf/dnf.conf. [main] gpgcheck=1 installonly_limit=3 clean_requirements_on_remove=true deltarpm=1 That reduced a 171 MB update to 43 MB. It appears I might save a GB or more in the course of a month. That is much more important to me than the time dnf update spends rebuilding rpm's. Bob -- http://www.qrz.com/db/W2BOD box10 Fedora-20/64bit Linux/XFCE -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 09:25 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: It appears fromhttps://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/ReplaceYumWithDNF that everyone will have to start writing dnf install ..., which (if true) invalidates a vast amount of existing documentation and scripts. alias dnf=yum HTH, HAND. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
Hi, I had a look at dnf yesterday for the first time, I didn't know it existed until this thread. I have a query with its functionality that I'm not sure is an issue or whether its just the package manager I normally use that is being user friendly or doing things differently. I have the akmod.nvidia and kmod.nvidia proprietary drivers installed and when they are updated, the package manager I use tells me about the packages that have to be uninstalled in order to do the update (this package manager seems to uninstall to old kmod package and installs the new one rather than update as such), but when I look at what dnf would do if I used that, it just tells me it is going to update the kmod driver and mentions nothing about the peripheral packages that will be removed. Is this normal functionality or is it a Beta testing issue? regards, Steve On 06/09/2014 05:45 PM, Jan Zelený wrote: On 6. 6. 2014 at 16:56:18, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, 2014-06-06 at 14:46 +0200, Ales Kozumplik wrote: Hello, The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-d nf/ Can the default configuration still leave you without a working kernel or has that been fixed? IIRC there was a bug that has been fixed. If you encounter this again, feel free to let us know. Thanks Jan attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 05:48 PM, Jan Zelený wrote: On 6. 6. 2014 at 09:20:33, Luke Nath wrote: Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 14:46:23 +0200 From: akozu...@redhat.com To: de...@lists.fedoraproject.org; yum-de...@lists.baseurl.org; users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22! Hello, The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-d nf/ Ales I have never used dnf. Does it have a GUI front end like Yumex? Nope, yumex has only a very little to do with yum, it's a separate project. You can use PackageKit or the GNOME software center which will both soon use the same underlying libraries dnf uses. Is PackageKit the only option for a kde user or is there something else which could be used, like for example Smartpm? regards, Steve Jan attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 05:45 PM, Jan Zelený wrote: On 6. 6. 2014 at 16:56:18, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, 2014-06-06 at 14:46 +0200, Ales Kozumplik wrote: Hello, The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-d nf/ Can the default configuration still leave you without a working kernel or has that been fixed? IIRC there was a bug that has been fixed. If you encounter this again, feel free to let us know. Hi, Just another question, is DNF multi-threaded? From my perspective it would be ideal if it could be configured to specify how many parallel downloads to start (like other download managers I have used under windows) and like some compilers I have used, configure how many threads to use to allow non-dependent installs to run in parallel. In my view that would potentially speed up the install process. Thanks Jan attachment: samorris.vcf-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 07:50 PM, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote: On 06/07/14 12:19, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Hi On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA Those of us who have to consider usage are willing to wait for the rpm rebuilding process Don't think you can speak for all of us. I don't prefer to wait at all and want the process to go as fast as it can. I have to deal with many more updates as a package maintainer and slowing me down will reduce the amount of time I can spend getting users the updates they want. So it likely affects you indirectly as well. Rahul Well it appears that we can both have it our way. I simple added deltarpm=1 to /etc/dnf/dnf.conf. With yum, the situation was converse. = dnf IS NOT a drop-in replacement for yum. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/10/14 05:16, Stephen Morris wrote: Is PackageKit the only option for a kde user or is there something else which could be used, like for example Smartpm? KDE's package management is apper -- Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. -- Dandemis -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/09/2014 05:49 PM, Jan Zelený wrote: On 9. 6. 2014 at 16:41:59, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 06/09/2014 02:30 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 09:59:15AM +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: till October) will give folks plenty of time to hone their dnf skills. IMO, for many (majority?) it will be a drop-in replacement for yum. Yes, that's the plan. There are some differences but they are all well documented. Is the plan to actually rename dnf to yum at that point? 1. Is there a yum compatibility test suite? It dnf is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, not having one would seem grossly silly and should be treated as full stop show stopper. 2. If dnf is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, a more reasonable approach but to force dnf upon all users by brute force, would be to apply alternatives. If it is truly a drop-in replacement, that seems like the less disruptive approach for users (and scripts) everywhere. Agreed. I regret, but so far, dnf I do not see much sense in dnf. Dnf is not supposed to be 100% drop-in replacement (hence the list of incompatibilities in the dnf documentation). I'd rather say that it's supposed to be as compatible as possible, focusing on the most widely used features first. Well, in this case ... you don't want to hear, what I think of this. What you currently are doing, definitely is against the Fedora users' interests, to say the least. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:53 AM, Jan Zelený jzel...@redhat.com wrote: Why not Vote for yum vs dnf? What exactly is wrong with yum? It has worked faultlessly and painlessly for me for years, with addons to deal with every conceivable problem. If there is some problem with it, why not simply deal with that problem instead of inventing a completely new program? Because the code base of yum is 10+ years old and is very difficult to maintain. Dnf was forked from yum with a goal to refactor the code base so it can be around for another 10+ years. Also, dnf is built on top of the 7 year old dependency solving library from openSUSE, so it's not exactly reinventing the wheel either. -T.C. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:58 AM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 06/09/2014 12:48 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: Nope, yumex has only a very little to do with yum, it's a separate project. You can use PackageKit or the GNOME software center which will both soon use the same underlying libraries dnf uses. And what do I use if I don't use Gnome but want a GUI? In KDE you can use Apper. (And possibly Muon in the future, which was developed by the Kubuntu folks but recently gained PackageKit support as well.) Not only will it work fine with DNF or yum but in Fedora 21 it will also get the fancy new screenshots and application descriptions that are available in gnome-software currently. If your favorite desktop doesn't have a PacakgeKit client, yell at them. It's been around for years now and is supported by all the major distributions. (I'm rather surprised the MATE folks haven't forked gnome-packagekit already...) Also, originally DNF was supposed to keep some compatibility with the yum python API. If that is still the case, porting yumex to DNF may be within the realm of possibility. -T.C. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 6:33 AM, Tom Horsley horsley1...@gmail.com wrote: Can we vote for features we want removed, like multilib? (Actually I guess that is an rpm abomination, not a yum abomination, but it still ought to be removed and all the rpms properly split into noarch, i686, and x86_64 parts :-). Why? I don't think everyone has given up on running random 32-bit apps, especially including 32-bit Windows apps via WINE (which requires multilib i686 bits). -T.C. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
I've been using DNF for a year or so primarily. The one gripe that I have is that DNF tends to avoid giving useful information with broken packages. A required package version isn't available? Yum will print out tons of information on which package failed, what version is installed, and what version is available through yum. On the other hand, DNF just gives up without any useful output. Absolutely no information that there was a package conflict, much less what the details are. With Fedora embracing community repositories through COPR, the default packaging tool absolutely needs to present this information to users. There are also still situations where a user gets a Python stack trace, which is, bluntly, sloppy programming. Exceptions always need to be handled and presented in a reasonable format for users. The failure to catch exceptions instills the belief that the authors don't understand the failure modes of their application. I'll make one additional comment about how DNF doesn't go far enough to actually be useful enough to be next-generation. The slowest step for users who keep their packages generally up-to-date is the download and parsing of metadata. The Fedora OS repository metadata is over 36MiB (and completely static after release) that has to be downloaded and still takes a long time to parse. Why DNF didn't attempt to even address server-based queries or partial metadata download is beyond me. I shouldn't need to download full metadata of all packages just to figure out what needs to be updated, and similarly a package queries should happen on the remote mirror. There's no reason why every client needs to download and parse that much metadata. While DNF works pretty well and is marginally faster, it doesn't really offer that much benefit. I anticipate that we'll see DNF 2 or some other new package manager show up that at least alters the metadata situation if not going radically parallel to support simultaneous modification of many packages. On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: On 06/09/2014 05:49 PM, Jan Zelený wrote: On 9. 6. 2014 at 16:41:59, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 06/09/2014 02:30 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 09:59:15AM +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: till October) will give folks plenty of time to hone their dnf skills. IMO, for many (majority?) it will be a drop-in replacement for yum. Yes, that's the plan. There are some differences but they are all well documented. Is the plan to actually rename dnf to yum at that point? 1. Is there a yum compatibility test suite? It dnf is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, not having one would seem grossly silly and should be treated as full stop show stopper. 2. If dnf is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, a more reasonable approach but to force dnf upon all users by brute force, would be to apply alternatives. If it is truly a drop-in replacement, that seems like the less disruptive approach for users (and scripts) everywhere. Agreed. I regret, but so far, dnf I do not see much sense in dnf. Dnf is not supposed to be 100% drop-in replacement (hence the list of incompatibilities in the dnf documentation). I'd rather say that it's supposed to be as compatible as possible, focusing on the most widely used features first. Well, in this case ... you don't want to hear, what I think of this. What you currently are doing, definitely is against the Fedora users' interests, to say the least. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Mon, 9 Jun 2014 15:25:33 -0700 T.C. Hollingsworth wrote: which requires multilib i686 bits Properly split up rpms wouldn't require multilib. The abomination that is multilib introduces utter confusion by allowing 32 and 64 bit versions of rpms to both be installed when both claim to include (for instance) /usr/bin/sillyprogram, yet by undocumented skullduggery only the 64 bit /usr/bin/sillyprogram executable is really installed. The whole multilib thing was a monstrous kludge because no one wanted to do the work to properly split rpms into noarch, library, and executable chunks. Packaging would be infinitely less mysterious and confusing if the proper split were made, and nothing would prevent 32 bit libs from being installed on 64 bit machines. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 07.06.2014, Timothy Murphy wrote: What exactly is wrong with yum? It has worked faultlessly and painlessly for me for years, with addons to deal with every conceivable problem. If there is some problem with it, why not simply deal with that problem instead of inventing a completely new program? I'll second that! This is exactly what I'm thinking. (Just in case somebody cares..) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
Sudhir Khanger wrote: The time when DNF will take over from Yum in Fedora is nearing. We're wondering: is there stuff people are still missing from DNF that they have got recently in Yum? Or even something else! We've put together a very short and simple survey. Let your opinion be heard! http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/06/06/vote-for-yum-features-that-you-miss-in-dnf/ Why not Vote for yum vs dnf? What exactly is wrong with yum? It has worked faultlessly and painlessly for me for years, with addons to deal with every conceivable problem. If there is some problem with it, why not simply deal with that problem instead of inventing a completely new program? our society teaches people to overvalue innovation so as to distract them from more important things such as freedom, democracy, and giving everyone a comfortable life Richard Stallman -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Sat, Jun 07, 2014 at 13:08:42 +0100, Timothy Murphy gayle...@eircom.net wrote: Why not Vote for yum vs dnf? What exactly is wrong with yum? For one thing the depsolving algorithm used by yum is slow. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 07:47:37 -0500 Bruno Wolff III wrote: For one thing the depsolving algorithm used by yum is slow. Not so an ordinary human could notice it compared (for example) to the time it takes to rebuild the rpms from the deltas. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On Sat, Jun 07, 2014 at 08:57:33 -0400, Tom Horsley horsley1...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 07:47:37 -0500 Bruno Wolff III wrote: For one thing the depsolving algorithm used by yum is slow. Not so an ordinary human could notice it compared (for example) to the time it takes to rebuild the rpms from the deltas. That depends on how much stuff you update at once. Try updating 6000 packages (which I just did yesterday and will be doing again on multiple systems after the mass rebuild) and you will notice some delay. It can still be small compared to doing the actual updates, but when you are trying to catch problems (that block lots of the updates) it can be pain to have to wait before seeing what needs to be fixed. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
Hi On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Tom Horsley wrote: Not so an ordinary human could notice it compared (for example) to the time it takes to rebuild the rpms from the deltas. ... which happens to be another thing dnf fixes Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
Bruno Wolff III wrote: For one thing the depsolving algorithm used by yum is slow. Not so an ordinary human could notice it compared (for example) to the time it takes to rebuild the rpms from the deltas. That depends on how much stuff you update at once. Try updating 6000 packages (which I just did yesterday and will be doing again on multiple systems after the mass rebuild) and you will notice some delay. This seems to me to encapsulate the basic argument I have with Fedora, which Stallman touched on in the quote I gave: how many people try to update 6000 packages at one go? What percentage of Fedora-users? 0.01%? The Fedora developers seem to follow the advice of de Valera, president of Ireland in the distant past, If I wish to know what the Irish want, I look into my own heart. It seems to me that it would be simple to find out what users actually want, eg by a (voluntary) questionnaire at installation-time. In my view, Fedora attaches far too much weight to the views of developers as opposed to the wishes of mere users. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
On 06/07/14 09:08, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Hi On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Tom Horsley wrote: Not so an ordinary human could notice it compared (for example) to the time it takes to rebuild the rpms from the deltas. ... which happens to be another thing dnf fixes Rahul Those of us who have to consider usage are willing to wait for the rpm rebuilding process, after all you can do something else while it is happening. The first thing I do every morning is check my Viasat Usage. If I run over at the end of the month I pay for it! Nob -- http://www.qrz.com/db/W2BOD box10 Fedora-20/64bit Linux/XFCE -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Save everybody some surprises in Fedora 22!
Hi On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA Those of us who have to consider usage are willing to wait for the rpm rebuilding process Don't think you can speak for all of us. I don't prefer to wait at all and want the process to go as fast as it can. I have to deal with many more updates as a package maintainer and slowing me down will reduce the amount of time I can spend getting users the updates they want. So it likely affects you indirectly as well. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
