Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
On 6/3/07, Curt Hagenlocher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 6/3/07, John J Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > "This is not a case of some accidental, unknowing infringement," > > > Gutierrez asserts. "There is an overwhelming number of patents being > > > infringed." > > > This is a public statement made purely for PR purposes and probably > shouldn't be used to imply anything about real-world law. i'm a great fan of iron python, and am thrilled that microsoft happens to be using python as the front-line example (trial case?) for select application of open-ish software development. that said, it seems downright blithe to dismiss blatant threats as mere PR. such threats are analogous to the leaders of one country making claims to a neighboring country's territory - sabre rattling, indeed. (the overlap of the "property" theme, physical vs. intellectual, is no accident.) whether or not such threats are intended to be followed by action, they have serious consequences. i also wouldn't rely on wisdom to prevent misguided follow-through on such threats - history has plenty of counter-examples, where everybody loses. i'd be nervous about such posturing, even when i wasn't part of the culture in the crosshairs. all *that* said, i wouldn't see any of this as reasons to feel exposed to a patent litigation risk when it comes to iron python. from a purely power-politics perspective, fepy seems to be as indemnified as you can get, with the weight of the 800 lb gorilla behind it. i gather that microsoft has sometimes been unkind to their third party developers, but there seems to be some safe ground to stick with, here, there's alignment of motives. if i understand their model, it's in MS's interest to grow and sustain a public community of developers using languages built on the DLR. it sure is interesting to see this all unfold. (thanks, jim and co.!) -- ken manheimer http://myriadicity.net ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
Quoting Curt Hagenlocher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On 6/3/07, John J Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >>> "This is not a case of some accidental, unknowing infringement," >>> Gutierrez asserts. "There is an overwhelming number of patents being >>> infringed." > > > This is a public statement made purely for PR purposes and probably > shouldn't be used to imply anything about real-world law. > > -- > Curt Hagenlocher > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Interesting that MS refuses to specify the infringements they refer to. Could this be saber-rattling aimed to scare customers away from Linux? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/24/microsoft_novell_patents/ Jon Cosby ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
On 6/3/07, John J Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "This is not a case of some accidental, unknowing infringement," > Gutierrez asserts. "There is an overwhelming number of patents being > infringed." This is a public statement made purely for PR purposes and probably shouldn't be used to imply anything about real-world law. -- Curt Hagenlocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, Curt Hagenlocher wrote: [...] > The originally-expressed concern was that looking at the IronPython source > code might "contaminate" a developer such that, if the same developer later > worked on a different project with similar architecture, it might open that > project up to claims of violating a Microsoft patent. > > I am not a lawyer, but this seems highly unlikely. "Independent > rediscovery" does not protect you from claims of patent infringement, only > from copyright infringement. [...] Right. However, I hear that intentional patent infringement is considered more serious than inadvertent patent infringement, and that Microsoft employees have interpreted the large number of alleged patent infringements in free and open source software as evidence of at least some of them being intentional: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/05/28/100033867/index.htm > "This is not a case of some accidental, unknowing infringement," > Gutierrez asserts. "There is an overwhelming number of patents being > infringed." I'm unsure whether having deliberately avoided source code that you believe to contain patented methods might be interpreted as evidence of deliberate infringement or as evidence of the lack of it. But it would seem plausible that one's actions and statements about reading source code *can* have some effect on the seriousness of patent infringements, even if they never make the difference between an infringement having occurred or not. John ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
So then why not read the source code, get some ideas, possibly use some of the code if it makes sense as such, and include a copy of the license and copyright notice with your redistribution to cover your legal requirements. Of course if the project was GPL'd, which is incompatible (as far as I know) with the MSPL (as well as pretty much every BSD-like license), then the clause in the license stating that the the subsequent license MUST be compatible with the MSPL would obviously present a problem. So I guess I can now see where you are going with this. Interesting dilemma. On 6/1/07, Curt Hagenlocher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 6/1/07, M. David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 6/1/07, Curt Hagenlocher < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > "Independent rediscovery" does not protect you from claims of patent > > infringement, only from copyright infringement. > > > > Unless I am misreading, it seems you are suggesting that the protection > comes in the form of copyright, not patent, and therefore could present a > problem. Have I misinterpreted? > Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I want to contribute source code to the "ZincPython" project. There are two ways that my work could cause legal problems: it might infringe on someone's patent, or it might be copied wholesale from someone else's work. For patent infringement, it doesn't really matter where the code came from -- I wrote it, I copied it, I channeled it from a 12,000-year-old programmer named Klaatu -- if it infringes, it infringes. In order for copyright violation to have happened, on the other hand, I have to actually have had access to the code being copied. Some projects apparently try to protect themselves from *claims* of copyright violation by asking that their donors refrain from looking at similar or related (and usually competing) source code. Now that I think about it, though, reading someone else's source code might expose me to a clever idea that (unbeknownst to me) is patented -- thereby increasing the risk that I inadvertently infringe on a patent when I independently reimplement similar functionality. I guess I'm just biased against that idea because brilliant technique so rarely seems important to me. -- Curt Hagenlocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com -- /M:D M. David Peterson http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 | http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155 ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
On 6/1/07, M. David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 6/1/07, Curt Hagenlocher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Independent rediscovery" does not protect you from claims of patent > infringement, only from copyright infringement. > Unless I am misreading, it seems you are suggesting that the protection comes in the form of copyright, not patent, and therefore could present a problem. Have I misinterpreted? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I want to contribute source code to the "ZincPython" project. There are two ways that my work could cause legal problems: it might infringe on someone's patent, or it might be copied wholesale from someone else's work. For patent infringement, it doesn't really matter where the code came from -- I wrote it, I copied it, I channeled it from a 12,000-year-old programmer named Klaatu -- if it infringes, it infringes. In order for copyright violation to have happened, on the other hand, I have to actually have had access to the code being copied. Some projects apparently try to protect themselves from *claims* of copyright violation by asking that their donors refrain from looking at similar or related (and usually competing) source code. Now that I think about it, though, reading someone else's source code might expose me to a clever idea that (unbeknownst to me) is patented -- thereby increasing the risk that I inadvertently infringe on a patent when I independently reimplement similar functionality. I guess I'm just biased against that idea because brilliant technique so rarely seems important to me. -- Curt Hagenlocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
On 6/1/07, Curt Hagenlocher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: People who are simply *using* IronPython are covered by the license. Well them, and those who want "to make, have made, use, sell, offer for sale, import, and/or otherwise dispose of its contribution in the software or derivative works of the contribution in the software." I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that "I once looked at the source code, and it could have influenced this idea in particular" is covered by at least one if not more of the above rights. The originally-expressed concern was that looking at the IronPython source code might "contaminate" a developer such that, if the same developer later worked on a different project with similar architecture, it might open that project up to claims of violating a Microsoft patent. Right, which as you point out, I am not a lawyer, but this seems highly unlikely. I agree, though am confused by your following sentence, "Independent rediscovery" does not protect you from claims of patent infringement, only from copyright infringement. Unless I am misreading, it seems you are suggesting that the protection comes in the form of copyright, not patent, and therefore could present a problem. Have I misinterpreted? -- /M:D M. David Peterson http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 | http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155 ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
On 6/1/07, Tim Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The license associated with IronPython is quite specific about patent rights. Microsoft treats its licenses very seriously. In my opinion, there's nothing to worry about here. People who are simply *using* IronPython are covered by the license. The originally-expressed concern was that looking at the IronPython source code might "contaminate" a developer such that, if the same developer later worked on a different project with similar architecture, it might open that project up to claims of violating a Microsoft patent. I am not a lawyer, but this seems highly unlikely. "Independent rediscovery" does not protect you from claims of patent infringement, only from copyright infringement. -- Curt Hagenlocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
*VERY* well stated, Tim! On 6/1/07, Tim Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:41:19 -0400, "Eric Nicholson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm also not a lawyer, but... > > I previously would have agreed about the protections in the license, but > until the whole claim of 135 Patent violations in Linux clears up, I'm not > sure. MS Legal needs to prove that they can be trusted. In all fairness, please remember that (a) the 235 patent violation claim was made in the media, not in the courts -- it was for PR purposes, not for litigation purposes; (b) they haven't actually sued anyone yet, nor even said they will do so; and (c) the people they would sue were not covered by any license at all. Also remember that it is the JOB of Microsoft's legal department to defend their patent portfolio. They don't have to have to earn anyone's trust. The license associated with IronPython is quite specific about patent rights. Microsoft treats its licenses very seriously. In my opinion, there's nothing to worry about here. -- Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc. ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com -- /M:D M. David Peterson http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 | http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155 ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:41:19 -0400, "Eric Nicholson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm also not a lawyer, but... > > I previously would have agreed about the protections in the license, but > until the whole claim of 135 Patent violations in Linux clears up, I'm not > sure. MS Legal needs to prove that they can be trusted. In all fairness, please remember that (a) the 235 patent violation claim was made in the media, not in the courts -- it was for PR purposes, not for litigation purposes; (b) they haven't actually sued anyone yet, nor even said they will do so; and (c) the people they would sue were not covered by any license at all. Also remember that it is the JOB of Microsoft's legal department to defend their patent portfolio. They don't have to have to earn anyone's trust. The license associated with IronPython is quite specific about patent rights. Microsoft treats its licenses very seriously. In my opinion, there's nothing to worry about here. -- Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc. ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
On 6/1/07, Eric Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm also not a lawyer, but... I previously would have agreed about the protections in the license, but until the whole claim of 135 Patent violations in Linux clears up, I'm not sure. MS Legal needs to prove that they can be trusted. You mean like 30+ litigation free years** worth of trust? ** via http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2006/12/patent_lunacy_d.html#comment-26885657 "Microsoft has lots of patents covering just about every aspect of software. How many times in the past 30 years has Microsoft sued any company for patent infringement? I can't think of any. Microsoft, IBM, and all the big guys use their patents as a defense, much more than as an offensive revenue generator." a bit further down @ http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2006/12/patent_lunacy_d.html#comment-26918802 A quick search reveals that in November, Alcatel filed lawsuits against Microsoft for several alleged patent infringements related to IPTV. The IPTV patents stem from the work of Oracle engineers who had developed fast-forward and rewind features for its video server technology. The patents were sold to a company Alcatel later acquired. So, in defense, Microsoft sued Alcatel for infringing on 10 of its patents in the same area. See, this is a current example of how patent defenses work. Patents are often overlapping. That is fine, and most of the time companies find ways to do business without lawsuits. DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, just a hacker who would rather worry about writing code than about whether or not MSFT is going to sue me if I write code against ANY thing they might produce. It's kind of how they got to be the size they are e.g. develop an API > get people to write code against that API > Sue them for all they're worth for building code against patented technologies and then laugh at them while they suffer... err wait, sorry, scratch that last part, and instead append, "Become a behemoth profit making machine by tapping into the ISV, VAR, etc... channels who write code against their API's and as a result they sell more software for their software to run on (recursion at it's finest hour) " just after "... that API >". Thanks! :D -- /M:D M. David Peterson http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 | http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155 ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
I'm also not a lawyer, but... I previously would have agreed about the protections in the license, but until the whole claim of 135 Patent violations in Linux clears up, I'm not sure. MS Legal needs to prove that they can be trusted. -Eric On 5/31/07, M. David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I am not a lawyer, but I can read, (B) Patent Grant- Subject to the terms of this license, including the > license conditions and limitations in section 3, each contributor grants you > a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free license under its licensed patents > to make, have made, use, sell, offer for sale, import, and/or otherwise > dispose of its contribution in the software or derivative works of the > contribution in the software. In section 3, (B) If you bring a patent claim against any contributor over patents that > you claim are infringed by the software, your patent license from such > contributor to the software ends automatically. In summary: We won't sue you, if you don't sue us. If you do, then the gloves are off. And let me reiterate: I am not a lawyer. On 5/31/07, John Messerly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > I am definitely not a lawyer, but I think this question is addressed in > the Microsoft Permissive License (http://www.microsoft.com/resources/sharedsource/licensingbasics/permissivelicense.mspx > ). See section 2.b, "Patent Grant". > > Cheers, > > John > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Sanghyeon Seo > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 6:10 PM > To: Discussion of IronPython > Subject: [IronPython] Patent concerns > > Hi, > > Recently on jvm-languages list, which is an interest group surrounding > language implementation for the JVM, Frank Wierzbicki from Jython > project expressed the concern that Microsoft may hold a lot of patents > related to IronPython, so he is reluctant to look at the source code > even if it is open-sourced. > > http://groups.google.com/group/jvm-languages/msg/0d16a82b53233a72 > > Apparently, this seems to be a widespread concern. I think this is a > pity, since in my opinion IronPython has a lot of good ideas that > would benefit language implementations on JVM. > > So, please answer if possible. What patents Microsoft hold, related to > IronPython? > > -- > Seo Sanghyeon > ___ > users mailing list > users@lists.ironpython.com > http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com > ___ > users mailing list > users@lists.ironpython.com > http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com > -- /M:D M. David Peterson http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 | http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155 ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
I am not a lawyer, but I can read, (B) Patent Grant- Subject to the terms of this license, including the license conditions and limitations in section 3, each contributor grants you a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free license under its licensed patents to make, have made, use, sell, offer for sale, import, and/or otherwise dispose of its contribution in the software or derivative works of the contribution in the software. In section 3, (B) If you bring a patent claim against any contributor over patents that you claim are infringed by the software, your patent license from such contributor to the software ends automatically. In summary: We won't sue you, if you don't sue us. If you do, then the gloves are off. And let me reiterate: I am not a lawyer. On 5/31/07, John Messerly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi, I am definitely not a lawyer, but I think this question is addressed in the Microsoft Permissive License ( http://www.microsoft.com/resources/sharedsource/licensingbasics/permissivelicense.mspx). See section 2.b, "Patent Grant". Cheers, John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sanghyeon Seo Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 6:10 PM To: Discussion of IronPython Subject: [IronPython] Patent concerns Hi, Recently on jvm-languages list, which is an interest group surrounding language implementation for the JVM, Frank Wierzbicki from Jython project expressed the concern that Microsoft may hold a lot of patents related to IronPython, so he is reluctant to look at the source code even if it is open-sourced. http://groups.google.com/group/jvm-languages/msg/0d16a82b53233a72 Apparently, this seems to be a widespread concern. I think this is a pity, since in my opinion IronPython has a lot of good ideas that would benefit language implementations on JVM. So, please answer if possible. What patents Microsoft hold, related to IronPython? -- Seo Sanghyeon ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com -- /M:D M. David Peterson http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 | http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155 ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
Hi, I am definitely not a lawyer, but I think this question is addressed in the Microsoft Permissive License (http://www.microsoft.com/resources/sharedsource/licensingbasics/permissivelicense.mspx). See section 2.b, "Patent Grant". Cheers, John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sanghyeon Seo Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 6:10 PM To: Discussion of IronPython Subject: [IronPython] Patent concerns Hi, Recently on jvm-languages list, which is an interest group surrounding language implementation for the JVM, Frank Wierzbicki from Jython project expressed the concern that Microsoft may hold a lot of patents related to IronPython, so he is reluctant to look at the source code even if it is open-sourced. http://groups.google.com/group/jvm-languages/msg/0d16a82b53233a72 Apparently, this seems to be a widespread concern. I think this is a pity, since in my opinion IronPython has a lot of good ideas that would benefit language implementations on JVM. So, please answer if possible. What patents Microsoft hold, related to IronPython? -- Seo Sanghyeon ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] Patent concerns
The answer to that probably requires a patent lawyer, and since we've each been trained in the mantra, "I am not a lawyer", it follows that "We are not patent lawyers." This is particularly true when talking amongst developers, since what we might consider patentable and not varies dramatically from what Legal would advise. So, short of someone from MS Legal chiming in, I would (personally) advise interested parties to consult their own (professional) legal counsel. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sanghyeon Seo Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 6:10 PM To: Discussion of IronPython Subject: [IronPython] Patent concerns Hi, Recently on jvm-languages list, which is an interest group surrounding language implementation for the JVM, Frank Wierzbicki from Jython project expressed the concern that Microsoft may hold a lot of patents related to IronPython, so he is reluctant to look at the source code even if it is open-sourced. http://groups.google.com/group/jvm-languages/msg/0d16a82b53233a72 Apparently, this seems to be a widespread concern. I think this is a pity, since in my opinion IronPython has a lot of good ideas that would benefit language implementations on JVM. So, please answer if possible. What patents Microsoft hold, related to IronPython? -- Seo Sanghyeon ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
[IronPython] Patent concerns
Hi, Recently on jvm-languages list, which is an interest group surrounding language implementation for the JVM, Frank Wierzbicki from Jython project expressed the concern that Microsoft may hold a lot of patents related to IronPython, so he is reluctant to look at the source code even if it is open-sourced. http://groups.google.com/group/jvm-languages/msg/0d16a82b53233a72 Apparently, this seems to be a widespread concern. I think this is a pity, since in my opinion IronPython has a lot of good ideas that would benefit language implementations on JVM. So, please answer if possible. What patents Microsoft hold, related to IronPython? -- Seo Sanghyeon ___ users mailing list users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
