Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
You might start here: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/05/update-on-odf-spreadsheet.html For which I counter, right there in the comments: http://blogs.gnome.org/mortenw/2005/06/16/opendocument-for-spreadsheets/ Here's another link: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009050712493241 This is a better link. The author is obviously biased (I am familiar with Growlaw) but she makes terrific points and backs them up. She seems to be of the opinion that MS should have looked to OOo as a reference implementation, as the other vendors have. This is a good point, and one that I personally hold as well, but should have is irrelevant at this stage. At this point, the question is now what will OOo do? Ensure compatibility or not? And another: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/05/follow-up-on-excel-2007-sp2s-odf.html Here we see standards incompliance, and even an MS rep in the comments. So long as the MS product is not standards-compliant, then of course there is no practical way to be interoperable with them. However, it does seem that the non-standard code in the last blog post is not representative of other interoperability problems with MSO, in which both OOo and MSO are standards compliant but in different manners. In those issues, in my opinion, OOo should strive for interoperability even if MSO does not. That is how OOo got it's toe in the door with DOC support, and it should continue with the practice with ODF support. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
[users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
On 2009/05/06 3:38 PM Harold Fuchs wrote: Thought this might be of interest even if OT. This thread, which has nothing to do with giving support to users is now 57 posts long. No wonder people complain about the number of emails they receive from this list. Shouldn't this type of discussion take place on the discuss list disc...@openoffice.org or even on the social list soc...@openoffice.org ? -- Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
On Fri, May 08, 2009 13:46:49 PM -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2009/05/06 3:38 PM Harold Fuchs wrote: Thought this might be of interest even if OT. This thread, which has nothing to do with giving support to users is now 57 posts long. this thread is about the real, main reason to use OOo (=ODF) and advocate its adoption by public administrations. Explaining it may very well be the best support we could give to new users. This said, don't worry, as I've just answered to Dotan I'm not going to continue unless something really new comes up, because we've all repeated ourselves by now. Marco Fioretti Digital Rights writings at http://mfioretti.com -- Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how software is used *around* you:http://digifreedom.net/node/84 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
Larry Gusaas wrote: This thread, which has nothing to do with giving support to users is now 57 posts long. No wonder people complain about the number of emails they receive from this list. Shouldn't this type of discussion take place on the discuss list disc...@openoffice.org or even on the social list soc...@openoffice.org ? +1 Can't this discussion be moved to another list?? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
[users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
On 2009/05/08 1:52 PM M. Fioretti wrote: this thread is about the real, main reason to use OOo (=ODF) and advocate its adoption by public administrations. Explaining it may very well be the best support we could give to new users. And that discussion should be on the discuss list. See http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html disc...@openoffice.org This list is intended for discussions on OpenOffice.org and Open Source. Here is the purpose for this list users@openoffice.org For questions relating to the use of OpenOffice.org (the application). This thread has nothing to do with the use of OO.o -- Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
Did you write to volunteer to help me with my problem? Last night I downloaded and installed OpenOffice 3.1. Now I have a mess! I can't open it, I can't repair it, and I can't uninstall it! Please Help Me!! Bob King Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2009/05/08 1:52 PM M. Fioretti wrote: this thread is about the real, main reason to use OOo (=ODF) and advocate its adoption by public administrations. Explaining it may very well be the best support we could give to new users. And that discussion should be on the discuss list. See http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html disc...@openoffice.org This list is intended for discussions on OpenOffice.org and Open Source. Here is the purpose for this list users@openoffice.org For questions relating to the use of OpenOffice.org (the application). This thread has nothing to do with the use of OO.o - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
[users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
Dotan Cohen wrote: Yes, what we are all missing. An unambiguous FOSS document file format. hmm .. sorry for jumping in to this thread. Have been following the ambiguity in ODF 1.0 and 1.1 and how MSO exploited to do their own extending. I think what others are trying to argue about is, if I may put this succinctly, that MSO had an option either to use the unspecified parts of the standard to play nice with other applications or not. It chose the latter. Had it followed the standard in *good cooperative faith*, it would have tried to be compatible with other applications. Heck, had it *wanted* to play nice, it might have just used the draft 1.2 as others are doing. But it didn't. In fact, this is a very good situation to demonstrate that without being forced to, either economically or otherwise, MSO is always going to make choices to break stuff. I think it did the same thing to HTML. It is always going to exploit to poison the standard. Hence a very good motivation to be thorough in ODF 1.2. -- Please reply to this list only. I read this list on its corresponding newsgroup on gmane.org. Replies sent to my email address are just filtered to a folder in my mailbox and get periodically deleted without ever having been read. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
[users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
Lars Noodén wrote: Again, MS fails to support the standard. Furthermore, if people wasted money on MSO 2007 then they won't ever be able to use ODF because the ODF plugin works only with earlier versions: No it doesn't - it works perfectly well with Office 2007 Quote from the Sun ODF plug-in page (the one you referenced): The plugin works with Microsoft Office 2007 (Service Pack 1 or higher), Microsoft Office 2003, XP and Microsoft Office 2000. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
[users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
Dotan Cohen wrote: Note that rendering in MSO-fashion need not break existing documents. But it does. Open an ods workbook in Excel 2007 and all the formulae are changed to values. What's the point of that? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
Gordon wrote: Lars Noodén wrote: Again, MS fails to support the standard. Furthermore, if people wasted money on MSO 2007 then they won't ever be able to use ODF because the ODF plugin works only with earlier versions: No it doesn't - it works perfectly well with Office 2007 Quote from the Sun ODF plug-in page (the one you referenced): The plugin works with Microsoft Office 2007 (Service Pack 1 or higher), Microsoft Office 2003, XP and Microsoft Office 2000. I wonder if it's possible to disable or not install the ODF support in SP2 and go only with the Sun plug in? -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
[users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
James Knott wrote: Gordon wrote: Lars Noodén wrote: Again, MS fails to support the standard. Furthermore, if people wasted money on MSO 2007 then they won't ever be able to use ODF because the ODF plugin works only with earlier versions: No it doesn't - it works perfectly well with Office 2007 Quote from the Sun ODF plug-in page (the one you referenced): The plugin works with Microsoft Office 2007 (Service Pack 1 or higher), Microsoft Office 2003, XP and Microsoft Office 2000. I wonder if it's possible to disable or not install the ODF support in SP2 and go only with the Sun plug in? I can't see any option to disable the MS odf support, and even with installing the Sun plugin, the formulae problem is still there... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
Gordon wrote: I can't see any option to disable the MS odf support, and even with installing the Sun plugin, the formulae problem is still there... Well, that's one more reason to use OpenOffice. It can read the latest MS files and still work properly with ODF. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
Gordon wrote: Lars Noodén wrote: Again, MS fails to support the standard. Furthermore, if people wasted money on MSO 2007 then they won't ever be able to use ODF because the ODF plugin works only with earlier versions: No it doesn't - it works perfectly well with Office 2007 Quote from the Sun ODF plug-in page (the one you referenced): The plugin works with Microsoft Office 2007 (Service Pack 1 or higher), Microsoft Office 2003, XP and Microsoft Office 2000. I have that plug-in installed with 2003. It is a MS product, but a different company's aid to help MS users to read/write the ODF world standard formats. Also that plug-in does not work as well as having the formats build-in like OOo has it. I have taken a Word .doc, saved it in Word using that plug-in. Then I took the same Word .doc and opened it in OOo and saved it to .odt. Then I read both documents in to Word and OOo. Word made file was not as good as OOo made file as view by both software. That was a few months ago. So my experience is that even though Sun's people and product volunteers have done their best to give the world a way for MS Word to read and write .odt, its just a stop-gap till MS finally gets their backsides in gear and support ODF properly and completely. MS still wants to say see, I told you so. Mine is better than yours. (with their collective tongues sticking out). As I said, my testing makes me want to use OOo to make .doc files into .odt files, not Word and the add-on. Plus many .docx files as well (if they can be converted at all, because of Word specific garbage). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
So my experience is that even though Sun's people and product volunteers have done their best to give the world a way for MS Word to read and write .odt, its just a stop-gap till MS finally gets their backsides in gear and support ODF properly and completely. MSO now supports ODF properly and completely. Just differently than OOo. MS still wants to say see, I told you so. Mine is better than yours. (with their collective tongues sticking out). MS's is different than yours. Neither are known to be better, but OOo does have glaring ODF implementation bugs. MSO's own bugs will be discovered soon enough, it is reasonable to imagine. As I said, my testing makes me want to use OOo to make .doc files into .odt files, not Word and the add-on. Plus many .docx files as well (if they can be converted at all, because of Word specific garbage). You might have the luxury of using an office suite built from the ground up to support ODF to convert your documents, but the 95% of the market using MSO does not have that luxury. And switching office suites is not a simple matter for businesses to make, even if for home users it is painless. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
Dotan Cohen wrote: MSO now supports ODF properly and completely. Just differently than OOo. I can't follow you. As far as I know, MS has choose to use their own namespace for the formulas in a .ods file instead of using the namespace recommended in the ODF 1.2 specification (still in-progress). If I understand you clearly, you want OOo saving its spreadsheets using the MS namespace instead of the standard one defined in 1.2 Why?. If we are not going to follow the standard, why bother with it?. If compatibility with MSO is the most important problem, then we should just use xlsx, and not any standard. I understand that the ability to open a ods file in MS namespace could be a desirable feature. But we must save in the most standard-compilant format possible. Javier. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
As far as I know, MS has choose to use their own namespace for the formulas in a .ods file instead of using the namespace recommended in the ODF 1.2 specification (still in-progress). Can you provide a link where this is discussed in depth? This sounds like non-standard behaviour, which of course I do not advocate. I was under the impression that MSO follows the ODF standard, just differently than OOo does (the standard leaves room for interpretation). -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
Dotan Cohen wrote: As far as I know, MS has choose to use their own namespace for the formulas in a .ods file instead of using the namespace recommended in the ODF 1.2 specification (still in-progress). Can you provide a link where this is discussed in depth? This sounds like non-standard behaviour, which of course I do not advocate. I was under the impression that MSO follows the ODF standard, just differently than OOo does (the standard leaves room for interpretation). You might start here: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/05/update-on-odf-spreadsheet.html -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
James Knott wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: As far as I know, MS has choose to use their own namespace for the formulas in a .ods file instead of using the namespace recommended in the ODF 1.2 specification (still in-progress). Can you provide a link where this is discussed in depth? This sounds like non-standard behaviour, which of course I do not advocate. I was under the impression that MSO follows the ODF standard, just differently than OOo does (the standard leaves room for interpretation). You might start here: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/05/update-on-odf-spreadsheet.html Here's another link: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009050712493241 -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Re: OT: MS Support for ODF [Fwd: OpenOffice.org Ninja]
James Knott wrote: James Knott wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: As far as I know, MS has choose to use their own namespace for the formulas in a .ods file instead of using the namespace recommended in the ODF 1.2 specification (still in-progress). Can you provide a link where this is discussed in depth? This sounds like non-standard behaviour, which of course I do not advocate. I was under the impression that MSO follows the ODF standard, just differently than OOo does (the standard leaves room for interpretation). You might start here: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/05/update-on-odf-spreadsheet.html Here's another link: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009050712493241 And another: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/05/follow-up-on-excel-2007-sp2s-odf.html -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
