Re: [Users] [Engine-devel] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup
Hello Again, I tend to keep state as-is, require tar at host machine. Whoever installs Fedora minimal should install tar manually. I hope Fedora people will add tar per some of the requests, as tar is important utility in *NIX environment. I do not think that the extra complexity is required. If you strongly think otherwise, then I prefer to merge the self extracting python script. Speak now, and emphasis. Regards, Alon Bar-Lev. - Original Message - From: Alon Bar-Lev alo...@redhat.com To: users users@ovirt.org, arch a...@ovirt.org, engine-devel engine-de...@ovirt.org Cc: Juan Hernandez jhern...@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 4:12:03 PM Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [Users] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup Hello All, Starting the discussion again... I would like to receive feedback regarding how we should cope with a state presented to use by Fedora. Fedora-19 minimal setup does not install tar utility which is required to deploy files during the host-deploy process (Hosts-Add Host). I guess because of 2.8M in size (including translations) -- a standard commonly used utility was removed. There are three alternatives : 1. Instruct users who are using minimal installations to manually install tar utility just like they configure repository, dns, etc.. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Drawback: require tar at destination machine. 2. Do not use tar but self extracting python script, a patch is ready[1]. Benefit: ability to deploy environment in which tar is missing. Drawback: non standard tool at destination machine. Drawback: complexity within our code. 3. Do not use tar but cpio, a patch is ready[2]. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Benefit: ability to use Fedora-19 minimal. Drawback: cpio is even less common than tar, even if it exists in Fedora-19 it can be removed without anyone notice. Drawback: most other distributions will not have cpio in their minimal installation. [[[ There was 4rd alternative, using python tar module to deploy tar. However, there is a bug in that module when processing last block if empty. This is edge condition but happened to at least one of the users and I could reproduce it. ]]] What option do you prefer? Regards, Alon Bar-Lev [1] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17295/ [2] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17396/ ___ Engine-devel mailing list engine-de...@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/engine-devel ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] [Engine-devel] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup
I did some testing with Fedora 18 (waiting for the Fedora 19 dvd to finish downloading) and I think that the behavior was the same way in Fedora 18. In Fedora 18 when installing from DVD if you select “Minimal Install”, you do not get tar. However, if you select “Minimal install” and “standard” under the add-on list, you *do* get tar. And if memory serves I learned the hard way in Fedora 18 that a lot of familiar commands are missing in minimal install without the standard add-on items including “ifconfig”. Yea, you can’t even easily tell what your IP address is!... unless you are used to the ip command. Is there any other commands that are missing on the “minimal” install that are needed? Would it be easier to mention in the install directions to use the standard add-on if selecting the minimal package set for host deployment? Just thoughts. I also wonder if it would be possible to include tar as a dependency for the RPMs (like ovirt-engine or vdsm) so when installed using a package manager, tar would be checked for. - Nick From: Alon Bar-Lev Sent: August 5, 2013 6:02 PM To: users, arch, engine-devel Subject: Re: [Users] [Engine-devel] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup Hello Again, I tend to keep state as-is, require tar at host machine. Whoever installs Fedora minimal should install tar manually. I hope Fedora people will add tar per some of the requests, as tar is important utility in *NIX environment. I do not think that the extra complexity is required. If you strongly think otherwise, then I prefer to merge the self extracting python script. Speak now, and emphasis. Regards, Alon Bar-Lev. - Original Message - From: Alon Bar-Lev alo...@redhat.com To: users users@ovirt.org, arch a...@ovirt.org, engine-devel engine-de...@ovirt.org Cc: Juan Hernandez jhern...@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 4:12:03 PM Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [Users] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup Hello All, Starting the discussion again... I would like to receive feedback regarding how we should cope with a state presented to use by Fedora. Fedora-19 minimal setup does not install tar utility which is required to deploy files during the host-deploy process (Hosts-Add Host). I guess because of 2.8M in size (including translations) -- a standard commonly used utility was removed. There are three alternatives : 1. Instruct users who are using minimal installations to manually install tar utility just like they configure repository, dns, etc.. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Drawback: require tar at destination machine. 2. Do not use tar but self extracting python script, a patch is ready[1]. Benefit: ability to deploy environment in which tar is missing. Drawback: non standard tool at destination machine. Drawback: complexity within our code. 3. Do not use tar but cpio, a patch is ready[2]. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Benefit: ability to use Fedora-19 minimal. Drawback: cpio is even less common than tar, even if it exists in Fedora-19 it can be removed without anyone notice. Drawback: most other distributions will not have cpio in their minimal installation. [[[ There was 4rd alternative, using python tar module to deploy tar. However, there is a bug in that module when processing last block if empty. This is edge condition but happened to at least one of the users and I could reproduce it. ]]] What option do you prefer? Regards, Alon Bar-Lev [1] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17295/ [2] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17396/ ___ Engine-devel mailing list engine-de...@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/engine-devel ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] [Engine-devel] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup
Hi all, +1 for Alon's summary - first preference to remain as-is, second pyar. In addition: - Original Message - From: Nicholas Kesick cybertimber2...@hotmail.com To: oVirt Mailing List users@ovirt.org, arch a...@ovirt.org, engine-devel engine-de...@ovirt.org, Alon Bar-Lev alo...@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 4:57:41 AM Subject: Re: [Users] [Engine-devel] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup I did some testing with Fedora 18 (waiting for the Fedora 19 dvd to finish downloading) and I think that the behavior was the same way in Fedora 18. In Fedora 18 when installing from DVD if you select “Minimal Install”, you do not get tar. Indeed. blockquote However, if you select “Minimal install” and “standard” under the add-on list, you *do* get tar. And if memory serves I learned the hard way in Fedora 18 that a lot of familiar commands are missing in minimal install without the standard add-on items including “ifconfig”. Yea, you can’t even easily tell what your IP address is!... unless you are used to the ip command. /blockquote I think they are trying to educate us... and for me it partially worked :-) I have some machines on which I did not install ifconfig, and (partially) learned to use ip (after refusing to do so for perhaps 10 or so years). blockquote Is there any other commands that are missing on the “minimal” install that are needed? /blockquote Needed by vdsm? They are listed as dependencies for it. Needed by me? Yes, but that's a personal preference. blockquote Would it be easier to mention in the install directions to use the standard add-on if selecting the minimal package set for host deployment? /blockquote The wiki page already tells to install tar, and I think that's enough. blockquote Just thoughts. I also wonder if it would be possible to include tar as a dependency for the RPMs (like ovirt-engine or vdsm) so when installed using a package manager, tar would be checked for. /blockquote This won't help in our case, as Alon explained in previous mails in this subject - these RPMs are installed by the bundle (a set of scripts/data files) that we are now discussing how should be made to arrive and run. Best regards, -- Didi ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] [Engine-devel] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup
Il 06/08/2013 00:01, Alon Bar-Lev ha scritto: Hello Again, I tend to keep state as-is, require tar at host machine. Whoever installs Fedora minimal should install tar manually. +1 I hope Fedora people will add tar per some of the requests, as tar is important utility in *NIX environment. I do not think that the extra complexity is required. If you strongly think otherwise, then I prefer to merge the self extracting python script. Speak now, and emphasis. Regards, Alon Bar-Lev. - Original Message - From: Alon Bar-Lev alo...@redhat.com To: users users@ovirt.org, arch a...@ovirt.org, engine-devel engine-de...@ovirt.org Cc: Juan Hernandez jhern...@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 4:12:03 PM Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [Users] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup Hello All, Starting the discussion again... I would like to receive feedback regarding how we should cope with a state presented to use by Fedora. Fedora-19 minimal setup does not install tar utility which is required to deploy files during the host-deploy process (Hosts-Add Host). I guess because of 2.8M in size (including translations) -- a standard commonly used utility was removed. There are three alternatives : 1. Instruct users who are using minimal installations to manually install tar utility just like they configure repository, dns, etc.. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Drawback: require tar at destination machine. 2. Do not use tar but self extracting python script, a patch is ready[1]. Benefit: ability to deploy environment in which tar is missing. Drawback: non standard tool at destination machine. Drawback: complexity within our code. 3. Do not use tar but cpio, a patch is ready[2]. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Benefit: ability to use Fedora-19 minimal. Drawback: cpio is even less common than tar, even if it exists in Fedora-19 it can be removed without anyone notice. Drawback: most other distributions will not have cpio in their minimal installation. [[[ There was 4rd alternative, using python tar module to deploy tar. However, there is a bug in that module when processing last block if empty. This is edge condition but happened to at least one of the users and I could reproduce it. ]]] What option do you prefer? Regards, Alon Bar-Lev [1] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17295/ [2] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17396/ ___ Engine-devel mailing list engine-de...@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/engine-devel ___ Engine-devel mailing list engine-de...@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/engine-devel -- Sandro Bonazzola Better technology. Faster innovation. Powered by community collaboration. See how it works at redhat.com ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] [Engine-devel] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup
I would advocate for option 2. - Original Message - From: Michal Skrivanek michal.skriva...@redhat.com To: Alon Bar-Lev alo...@redhat.com Cc: Juan Hernandez jhern...@redhat.com, engine-devel engine-de...@ovirt.org, arch a...@ovirt.org, users users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 3:25:24 PM Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [Users] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19misses tar at minimal setup On Jul 30, 2013, at 15:12 , Alon Bar-Lev alo...@redhat.com wrote: Hello All, Starting the discussion again... I would like to receive feedback regarding how we should cope with a state presented to use by Fedora. Fedora-19 minimal setup does not install tar utility which is required to deploy files during the host-deploy process (Hosts-Add Host). I guess because of 2.8M in size (including translations) -- a standard commonly used utility was removed. How about filing bug on that? This is such a basic utility I can't imagine anyone removing it. There are three alternatives : 1. Instruct users who are using minimal installations to manually install tar utility just like they configure repository, dns, etc.. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Drawback: require tar at destination machine. 2. Do not use tar but self extracting python script, a patch is ready[1]. Benefit: ability to deploy environment in which tar is missing. Drawback: non standard tool at destination machine. Drawback: complexity within our code. 3. Do not use tar but cpio, a patch is ready[2]. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Benefit: ability to use Fedora-19 minimal. Drawback: cpio is even less common than tar, even if it exists in Fedora-19 it can be removed without anyone notice. Drawback: most other distributions will not have cpio in their minimal installation. [[[ There was 4rd alternative, using python tar module to deploy tar. However, there is a bug in that module when processing last block if empty. This is edge condition but happened to at least one of the users and I could reproduce it. ]]] What option do you prefer? Regards, Alon Bar-Lev [1] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17295/ [2] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17396/ ___ Engine-devel mailing list engine-de...@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/engine-devel ___ Arch mailing list a...@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/arch ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] [Engine-devel] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup
Il 30/07/2013 15:12, Alon Bar-Lev ha scritto: Hello All, Starting the discussion again... I would like to receive feedback regarding how we should cope with a state presented to use by Fedora. Fedora-19 minimal setup does not install tar utility which is required to deploy files during the host-deploy process (Hosts-Add Host). I guess because of 2.8M in size (including translations) -- a standard commonly used utility was removed. There are three alternatives : 1. Instruct users who are using minimal installations to manually install tar utility just like they configure repository, dns, etc.. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Drawback: require tar at destination machine. 2. Do not use tar but self extracting python script, a patch is ready[1]. Benefit: ability to deploy environment in which tar is missing. Drawback: non standard tool at destination machine. Drawback: complexity within our code. 3. Do not use tar but cpio, a patch is ready[2]. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Benefit: ability to use Fedora-19 minimal. Drawback: cpio is even less common than tar, even if it exists in Fedora-19 it can be removed without anyone notice. Drawback: most other distributions will not have cpio in their minimal installation. [[[ There was 4rd alternative, using python tar module to deploy tar. However, there is a bug in that module when processing last block if empty. This is edge condition but happened to at least one of the users and I could reproduce it. ]]] What option do you prefer? Well, honestly, the solution I like more than the others is having the python tar bug fixed and be free to use the python tar lib. I would like to exclude cpio: it's on rpm based distro but not commonly available on others. I would like to exclude the RTFM solution, having it working out of the box. So my second choice is using a self extracting script. If you think pyar is a non standard tool, do you have considered the use of shar? Or do you think it's also a non standard tool? Regards, Alon Bar-Lev [1] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17295/ [2] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17396/ ___ Engine-devel mailing list engine-de...@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/engine-devel -- Sandro Bonazzola Better technology. Faster innovation. Powered by community collaboration. See how it works at redhat.com ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] [Engine-devel] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup
On 07/30/2013 09:25 AM, Michal Skrivanek wrote: On Jul 30, 2013, at 15:12 , Alon Bar-Lev alo...@redhat.com wrote: Hello All, Starting the discussion again... I would like to receive feedback regarding how we should cope with a state presented to use by Fedora. Fedora-19 minimal setup does not install tar utility which is required to deploy files during the host-deploy process (Hosts-Add Host). I guess because of 2.8M in size (including translations) -- a standard commonly used utility was removed. How about filing bug on that? This is such a basic utility I can't imagine anyone removing it. +1 I do agree with Michael. I have opened a thread in fedora devel mailing list anyway. There are three alternatives : 1. Instruct users who are using minimal installations to manually install tar utility just like they configure repository, dns, etc.. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Drawback: require tar at destination machine. 2. Do not use tar but self extracting python script, a patch is ready[1]. Benefit: ability to deploy environment in which tar is missing. Drawback: non standard tool at destination machine. Drawback: complexity within our code. 3. Do not use tar but cpio, a patch is ready[2]. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Benefit: ability to use Fedora-19 minimal. Drawback: cpio is even less common than tar, even if it exists in Fedora-19 it can be removed without anyone notice. Drawback: most other distributions will not have cpio in their minimal installation. [[[ There was 4rd alternative, using python tar module to deploy tar. However, there is a bug in that module when processing last block if empty. This is edge condition but happened to at least one of the users and I could reproduce it. ]]] What option do you prefer? Regards, Alon Bar-Lev [1] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17295/ [2] http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/17396/ ___ Engine-devel mailing list engine-de...@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/engine-devel ___ Engine-devel mailing list engine-de...@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/engine-devel -- Cheers Douglas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] [Engine-devel] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 10:09:47AM -0400, Antoni Segura Puimedon wrote: I would advocate for option 2. - Original Message - From: Michal Skrivanek michal.skriva...@redhat.com To: Alon Bar-Lev alo...@redhat.com Cc: Juan Hernandez jhern...@redhat.com, engine-devel engine-de...@ovirt.org, arch a...@ovirt.org, users users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 3:25:24 PM Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [Users] [Feedback required][host-deploy] Fedora-19 misses tar at minimal setup On Jul 30, 2013, at 15:12 , Alon Bar-Lev alo...@redhat.com wrote: Hello All, Starting the discussion again... I would like to receive feedback regarding how we should cope with a state presented to use by Fedora. Fedora-19 minimal setup does not install tar utility which is required to deploy files during the host-deploy process (Hosts-Add Host). I guess because of 2.8M in size (including translations) -- a standard commonly used utility was removed. How about filing bug on that? This is such a basic utility I can't imagine anyone removing it. There are three alternatives : 1. Instruct users who are using minimal installations to manually install tar utility just like they configure repository, dns, etc.. Benefit: simplicity. Benefit: use standard tools. Benefit: lower payload to transmit. Drawback: require tar at destination machine. 2. Do not use tar but self extracting python script, a patch is ready[1]. Benefit: ability to deploy environment in which tar is missing. Drawback: non standard tool at destination machine. Drawback: complexity within our code. How about option 2.1: convince Fedora to reintroduce tar? It is ironic that Gnome is shipped by default, but not such a staple utility. Where in Fedora did this decision take place? Can it be undone? Is it commonplace these days among other distros to boycot tar? Dan. ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
