Re: Mailing lists? Really?
David Weintraub wrote on Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 16:23:57 -0400: On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Ds Jstc dsj...@gmail.com wrote: But I have one big problem that I can't resolve. It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane. I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved them. But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing list. And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you. You don't have to use this mailing list. You can use forums such as Stackoverflow.com. However, as mailing lists go, this is one of the most helpful and useful ones I've seen. Because of that, you're probably stuck with this email list. Also, some of the maintainers are on this list. (I personally don't read any web forums related to Subversion.) But, the best reason is that with 7 Gigabytes of storage, I don't have to delete any emails. After a couple of years, you have an archive of easily searchable Subversion emails (better than the current web archive they use). Nah. I have N GB of mail storage from my provider, and I still set the svn-dev mailbox to auto-delete mail older than M days. When I need something older I use the archives.
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Ralph Seichter subversion...@seichter.de wrote: On 28.07.10 20:13, Ds Jstc wrote: my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you. There are numerous fine MUAs out there which will gladly sort your incoming mail and prevent inbox clutter by providing folders. You might also be able to use Sieve for a server-side solution. Please change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without resorting to email. Mailing lists are superior to forums because all relevant information is delivered without user interaction, while forums must be actively visited. Besides, forum software widely varies in usability, while each user can freely choose his personal favourite e-mail client. Also, mail can be stored locally and is available offline, if the need arises. Is this something Tigris can change? I hope Tigris will never consider abandoning mailing lists for a forum. -Ralph +1 and apache.org too
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved them. Search for solutions in the archives: http://subversion.apache.org/mailing-lists.html You may even use Google: http://www.google.com/search?q=i+want+solutions+site%3Amail-archives.apache.org%2Fmod_mbox%2Fsubversion-users in addition there are also http://svn.haxx.se and http://gmane.org that archive the subversion mailing lists. The latter even provides a mailing-list to nntp gateway as its main service 8-) -- Lorenz
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Bob Archer wrote: While I do agree that forums are somewhat more user friendly... Aren't there also several Web properties that let you participate in the mail list via your browser that make it very much like a forum would appear? I prefer mailing lists. Threading in most forum software ranges from abysmal to non-existent :( -- Life is complex, with real and imaginary parts. Ok, it boots. Which means it must be bug-free and perfect. -- Linus Torvalds People disagree with me. I just ignore them. -- Linus Torvalds
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Ds Jstc dsj...@gmail.com wrote: But I have one big problem that I can't resolve. It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane. I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved them. But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing list. And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you. You don't have to use this mailing list. You can use forums such as Stackoverflow.com. However, as mailing lists go, this is one of the most helpful and useful ones I've seen. Because of that, you're probably stuck with this email list. I believe this can be seen via Stackoverflow. There are only about 5,300 tagged Subversion issues in Stackoverflow. Compare this with PHP (50,700), Java (60,000), or Python (30,000+). I use a Google GMail account for my mailing lists (instead of my work email or my home email address). This has several nice features. For example, it separates out my mailing lists from other email detritus found at work and at home. Gmail also seems to be tuned for mailing lists. You can easily setup tags for each mailing list, and the conversations appear as threads which help you keep things together. Gmail also hides the original question on replies, so you don't see them. But, the best reason is that with 7 Gigabytes of storage, I don't have to delete any emails. After a couple of years, you have an archive of easily searchable Subversion emails (better than the current web archive they use). So, sorry this email list for Subversion is the best support forum around. But, if you create your own Gmail account just for the list, and use the web browser interface, you'll find the list much more manageable. -- David Weintraub qazw...@gmail.com
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Ds Jstc wrote on Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:13:26 -0700: I've been using subversion in a lighthearted way for a couple of years, recommending it to clients, sending a little money to Tigris now and then. It works very well for most of what I need it for. But I have one big problem that I can't resolve. It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane. I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved them. But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing list. And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you. Do you have to post in order to subscribe? I don't think so. (I am subscribed, but not at the address I post from.) There are probably thousands of competent, helpful people like me who would love to participate, but won't subscribe to yet another list. You aren't hearing from them... because they're not subscribed. Please change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without resorting to email. Is this something Tigris can change? Is it worth opening a new issue report about it? Everything I've found in the system is two years old or more. Thanks! Dylan
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
On 7/28/2010 1:13 PM, Ds Jstc wrote: I've been using subversion in a lighthearted way for a couple of years, recommending it to clients, sending a little money to Tigris now and then. It works very well for most of what I need it for. But I have one big problem that I can't resolve. It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane. If you have more than a couple of interests, mailing lists are the only way to keep up - the messages come to you in one place instead of you have to cycle among all of them. I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved them. Realistically, how often are you going to go out of your way to look for other people's questions if they don't come to you automatically? The places I've seen that use forums - or have forum/email gateways get questions on the forums but unless there is a paid staff for the product they don't get answers. But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing list. And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you. Get a free email account at gmail, yahoo, hotmail, etc. and use that to subscribe. Don't try to mix list traffic with a work account. There are probably thousands of competent, helpful people like me who would love to participate, but won't subscribe to yet another list. I'm not convinced. It is no harder to participate in dozens of lists than just one. You aren't hearing from them... because they're not subscribed. Please change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without resorting to email. I'd never bother to visit dozens of different forums. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:13:26 -0700, /Ds Jstc/: I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved them. Search for solutions in the archives: http://subversion.apache.org/mailing-lists.html You may even use Google: http://www.google.com/search?q=i+want+solutions+site%3Amail-archives.apache.org%2Fmod_mbox%2Fsubversion-users But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing list. And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you. There are probably thousands of competent, helpful people like me who would love to participate, but won't subscribe to yet another list. You aren't hearing from them... because they're not subscribed. Please change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without resorting to email. Don't you have filters (to sort out mailing lists in different folders) and threaded view in your email client? Wouldn't you need to subscribe to yet another web-based forum if it wasn't a mailing list? The last thing I would want is to crawl an ill designed web forum with the speed of a snail. I personally prefer NNTP, but mailing-lists are just fine. -- Stanimir
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
On 28.07.10 20:13, Ds Jstc wrote: my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you. There are numerous fine MUAs out there which will gladly sort your incoming mail and prevent inbox clutter by providing folders. You might also be able to use Sieve for a server-side solution. Please change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without resorting to email. Mailing lists are superior to forums because all relevant information is delivered without user interaction, while forums must be actively visited. Besides, forum software widely varies in usability, while each user can freely choose his personal favourite e-mail client. Also, mail can be stored locally and is available offline, if the need arises. Is this something Tigris can change? I hope Tigris will never consider abandoning mailing lists for a forum. -Ralph
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Ralph Seichter subversion...@seichter.de wrote: On 28.07.10 20:13, Ds Jstc wrote: Is this something Tigris can change? I hope Tigris will never consider abandoning mailing lists for a forum. It should also be noted that Subversion hasn't been using Tigris infrastructure for mailing lists for the better part of a year. Orthogonal to this discussion, perhaps, but the factual nit picker in me feels compelled to point this out. :) Cheers, -Hyrum
RE: Mailing lists? Really?
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Ralph Seichter subversion...@seichter.de wrote: On 28.07.10 20:13, Ds Jstc wrote: Is this something Tigris can change? I hope Tigris will never consider abandoning mailing lists for a forum. It should also be noted that Subversion hasn't been using Tigris infrastructure for mailing lists for the better part of a year. Orthogonal to this discussion, perhaps, but the factual nit picker in me feels compelled to point this out. :) Cheers, -Hyrum I was going to point this out too... but decided it didn't add to the discussion. While I do agree that forums are somewhat more user friendly... Aren't there also several Web properties that let you participate in the mail list via your browser that make it very much like a forum would appear? BOb
RE: Mailing lists? Really?
Ds Jstc wrote on Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:13:26 -0700: I've been using subversion in a lighthearted way for a couple of years, recommending it to clients, sending a little money to Tigris now and then. It works very well for most of what I need it for. But I have one big problem that I can't resolve. It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane. I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved them. But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing list. And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you. Do you have to post in order to subscribe? I don't think so. Certainly not. Nor do you have to subscribe to post. As a non-subscriber your post will be moderated but if you are patient it will be approved through fairly quickly (says I as one of the moderators). BOb
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Certainly not. Nor do you have to subscribe to post. As a non-subscriber your post will be moderated but if you are patient it will be approved through fairly quickly (says I as one of the moderators). And indeed, I started this thread without subscribing. But I still can't find a way to respond to an existing message without first having that message in my inbox. That's my main problem.
RE: Mailing lists? Really?
Certainly not. Nor do you have to subscribe to post. As a non- subscriber your post will be moderated but if you are patient it will be approved through fairly quickly (says I as one of the moderators). And indeed, I started this thread without subscribing. But I still can't find a way to respond to an existing message without first having that message in my inbox. That's my main problem. I see. Although most people should follow the best practice of doing a reply-all to list messages so non-subscribers will get those messages as well as it going to the list to be archived. However, I guess there will still be users that don't do that. BOb
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
- Original Message Certainly not. Nor do you have to subscribe to post. As a non-subscriber your post will be moderated but if you are patient it will be approved through fairly quickly (says I as one of the moderators). And indeed, I started this thread without subscribing. But I still can't find a way to respond to an existing message without first having that message in my inbox. That's my main problem. I just opened groups.google.com, and then searched for subversion. Both the subversion-dev and subversion users lists came up at the top. Here's the users: http://groups.google.com/group/subversion_users?lnk=srg And even this thread: http://groups.google.com/group/subversion_users/browse_thread/thread/b87e732b8a47420f Note that there is also a way to post to the list via this interface's + new post button. I didn't join the group through that interface, but it seems that the new post button makes you join the group before you can post. It has a nifty forward feature gmail style already there regardless, and I'm guessing you will get the reply after joining the group. HTH, Ben
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Bob Archer wrote on Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 17:36:30 -0400: Certainly not. Nor do you have to subscribe to post. As a non-subscriber your post will be moderated but if you are patient it will be approved through fairly quickly (says I as one of the moderators). Further, moderation delay only occurs on the first posting from a given email address. BOb
