[Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
Sharing with the Videolib list an email from a video distributor, and my internal response to the Collection Development office for use in replying to the original message. (Snipped to remove some elements that are institutionally specific) That said, the author of this email is incorrect in his assertion. I assume, as we often do, this title was purchased through Amazon.com, where it is currently listed as being in stock and sold for $13.50 If so, our copy is a legally acquired copy, and governed by the rule of first sale, which allows a library to loan or otherwise use a copy. Additionally, US Copyright law specifically exempts us from needing public performance rights to use a legally acquired video in classes. See: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#110 When a video is sold through other markets, the distributor cannot place a requirement on us to acquire PPR, or pay the higher price. Were the distributor the sole distributor, they could refuse to sell us the home video copy and insist that we pay $250. But as we (I assume) purchased through Amazon, they cannot make that claim. -deg -- deg farrelly, Full Librarian Mail Code 1006 Arizona State University P.O. Box 871006 Tempe, AZ 85287 Phone: 480.965.1403 Email: deg.farre...@asu.edu > -Original Message- > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:16 AM > > I am writing on behalf of Roy Germano Films LLC, the copyright holder of a > film you carry in your library called THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION. > According to our records, the DVD copy of THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION that > you have on your shelves is licensed for home use only (retail price: $20). > To carry this film in your library, you must purchase a DVD that has been > licensed for use in college/university libraries (retail price: $250). > > DVDs licensed for college/university use are sold exclusively on our website > -- > http://www.TheOtherSideOfImmigration.com > > On our website, you will notice a link on the upper-righthand side of the > website to purchase "DVDs Licensed for Colleges/Universities". Please click > that link to enter our secure online store and make your purchase. > > We hope you will attend to this matter as soon as possible. Please feel free > to contact me at this address if you should have any questions, believe our > records are incorrect, or would like to arrange to make your purchase with > our distributor by phone or email. > > Sincerely, > Roy Germano, Ph.D. > Founder/CEO, Roy Germano Films LLC VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
Hey deg Here's what I wrote back to this guy (with a copy to UC legal counsel)...I'm pissed off! Dear Film Distributor The title in question was bought from a valid home video distribution source and is perfectly legal under both contract and copyright law. Since we do not require public performance rights in our institution, we make it a point to buy home video versions of video whenever they are available. If, in fact, you wish to charge differentially higher prices for institutional use than for home video use, you simply cannot, at the same time, offer home video versions of your works. Since there are no contract or licensing stipulations for home video sale via vendors such as amazon (other than the usual restrictions against copying and other practices restricted by Title 117/US copyright Law), we feel the purchase we made were legal and in good faith. I think that if you do some investigation, you will find that the above contentions are supported by almost universal practice among independent film and video distributors. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have questions. > Sharing with the Videolib list an email from a video distributor, and my > internal response to the Collection Development office for use in replying > to the original message. (Snipped to remove some elements that are > institutionally specific) > > > > > That said, the author of this email is incorrect in his assertion. > > I assume, as we often do, this title was purchased through Amazon.com, > where it is currently listed as being in stock and sold for $13.50 > > If so, our copy is a legally acquired copy, and governed by the rule of > first sale, which allows a library to loan or otherwise use a copy. > > Additionally, US Copyright law specifically exempts us from needing public > performance rights to use a legally acquired video in classes. > > See: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#110 > > When a video is sold through other markets, the distributor cannot place a > requirement on us to acquire PPR, or pay the higher price. Were the > distributor the sole distributor, they could refuse to sell us the home > video copy and insist that we pay $250. But as we (I assume) purchased > through Amazon, they cannot make that claim. > > -deg > > -- > deg farrelly, Full Librarian > Mail Code 1006 > Arizona State University > P.O. Box 871006 > Tempe, AZ 85287 > Phone: 480.965.1403 > Email: deg.farre...@asu.edu > > >> -Original Message- > >> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:16 AM > >> >> I am writing on behalf of Roy Germano Films LLC, the copyright holder of >> a >> film you carry in your library called THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION. >> According to our records, the DVD copy of THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION >> that >> you have on your shelves is licensed for home use only (retail price: >> $20). >> To carry this film in your library, you must purchase a DVD that has >> been >> licensed for use in college/university libraries (retail price: $250). >> >> DVDs licensed for college/university use are sold exclusively on our >> website >> -- >> http://www.TheOtherSideOfImmigration.com >> >> On our website, you will notice a link on the upper-righthand side of >> the >> website to purchase "DVDs Licensed for Colleges/Universities". Please >> click >> that link to enter our secure online store and make your purchase. >> >> We hope you will attend to this matter as soon as possible. Please feel >> free >> to contact me at this address if you should have any questions, believe >> our >> records are incorrect, or would like to arrange to make your purchase >> with >> our distributor by phone or email. >> >> Sincerely, >> Roy Germano, Ph.D. >> Founder/CEO, Roy Germano Films LLC > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video > producers and distributors. > Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you decide to sell a film retail on Amazon you can't insist on an institution paying a higher price for standard face to face use. You can do that if you are exclusive seller of the film and make it clear at the point of purchase like the standard ( I have read and agree to these conditions) you get so many places. That is contract law trumping copyright but again if you sell through other vendors it is virtually impossible to do that. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Deg Farrelly wrote: > Sharing with the Videolib list an email from a video distributor, and my > internal response to the Collection Development office for use in replying > to the original message. (Snipped to remove some elements that are > institutionally specific) > > > > > That said, the author of this email is incorrect in his assertion. > > I assume, as we often do, this title was purchased through Amazon.com, > where it is currently listed as being in stock and sold for $13.50 > > If so, our copy is a legally acquired copy, and governed by the rule of > first sale, which allows a library to loan or otherwise use a copy. > > Additionally, US Copyright law specifically exempts us from needing public > performance rights to use a legally acquired video in classes. > > See: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#110 > > When a video is sold through other markets, the distributor cannot place a > requirement on us to acquire PPR, or pay the higher price. Were the > distributor the sole distributor, they could refuse to sell us the home > video copy and insist that we pay $250. But as we (I assume) purchased > through Amazon, they cannot make that claim. > > -deg > > -- > deg farrelly, Full Librarian > Mail Code 1006 > Arizona State University > P.O. Box 871006 > Tempe, AZ 85287 > Phone: 480.965.1403 > Email: deg.farre...@asu.edu > > > > -Original Message- > > > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:16 AM > > > > > I am writing on behalf of Roy Germano Films LLC, the copyright holder of > a > > film you carry in your library called THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION. > > According to our records, the DVD copy of THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION > that > > you have on your shelves is licensed for home use only (retail price: > $20). > > To carry this film in your library, you must purchase a DVD that has been > > licensed for use in college/university libraries (retail price: $250). > > > > DVDs licensed for college/university use are sold exclusively on our > website > > -- > > http://www.TheOtherSideOfImmigration.com > > > > On our website, you will notice a link on the upper-righthand side of the > > website to purchase "DVDs Licensed for Colleges/Universities". Please > click > > that link to enter our secure online store and make your purchase. > > > > We hope you will attend to this matter as soon as possible. Please feel > free > > to contact me at this address if you should have any questions, believe > our > > records are incorrect, or would like to arrange to make your purchase > with > > our distributor by phone or email. > > > > Sincerely, > > Roy Germano, Ph.D. > > Founder/CEO, Roy Germano Films LLC > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and > distributors. > -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
Um I am confused. Did all of you get a note from owner? On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:51 PM, wrote: > Hey deg > > Here's what I wrote back to this guy (with a copy to UC legal > counsel)...I'm pissed off! > > Dear Film Distributor > > The title in question was bought from a valid home video distribution > source and is perfectly legal under both contract and copyright law. > Since we do not require public performance rights in our institution, we > make it a point to buy home video versions of video whenever they are > available. > > If, in fact, you wish to charge differentially higher prices for > institutional use than for home video use, you simply cannot, at the same > time, offer home video versions of your works. Since there are no contract > or licensing stipulations for home video sale via vendors such as amazon > (other than the usual restrictions against copying and other practices > restricted by Title 117/US copyright Law), we feel the purchase we made > were legal and in good faith. > > I think that if you do some investigation, you will find that the above > contentions are supported by almost universal practice among independent > film and video distributors. > > Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have questions. > > > > > Sharing with the Videolib list an email from a video distributor, and my > > internal response to the Collection Development office for use in > replying > > to the original message. (Snipped to remove some elements that are > > institutionally specific) > > > > > > > > > > That said, the author of this email is incorrect in his assertion. > > > > I assume, as we often do, this title was purchased through Amazon.com, > > where it is currently listed as being in stock and sold for $13.50 > > > > If so, our copy is a legally acquired copy, and governed by the rule of > > first sale, which allows a library to loan or otherwise use a copy. > > > > Additionally, US Copyright law specifically exempts us from needing > public > > performance rights to use a legally acquired video in classes. > > > > See: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#110 > > > > When a video is sold through other markets, the distributor cannot place > a > > requirement on us to acquire PPR, or pay the higher price. Were the > > distributor the sole distributor, they could refuse to sell us the home > > video copy and insist that we pay $250. But as we (I assume) purchased > > through Amazon, they cannot make that claim. > > > > -deg > > > > -- > > deg farrelly, Full Librarian > > Mail Code 1006 > > Arizona State University > > P.O. Box 871006 > > Tempe, AZ 85287 > > Phone: 480.965.1403 > > Email: deg.farre...@asu.edu > > > > > >> -Original Message- > > > >> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:16 AM > > > >> > >> I am writing on behalf of Roy Germano Films LLC, the copyright holder of > >> a > >> film you carry in your library called THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION. > >> According to our records, the DVD copy of THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION > >> that > >> you have on your shelves is licensed for home use only (retail price: > >> $20). > >> To carry this film in your library, you must purchase a DVD that has > >> been > >> licensed for use in college/university libraries (retail price: $250). > >> > >> DVDs licensed for college/university use are sold exclusively on our > >> website > >> -- > >> http://www.TheOtherSideOfImmigration.com > >> > >> On our website, you will notice a link on the upper-righthand side of > >> the > >> website to purchase "DVDs Licensed for Colleges/Universities". Please > >> click > >> that link to enter our secure online store and make your purchase. > >> > >> We hope you will attend to this matter as soon as possible. Please feel > >> free > >> to contact me at this address if you should have any questions, believe > >> our > >> records are incorrect, or would like to arrange to make your purchase > >> with > >> our distributor by phone or email. > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> Roy Germano, Ph.D. > >> Founder/CEO, Roy Germano Films LLC > > > > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of > > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic > > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in > > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve > > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel > of > > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video > > producers and distributors. > > > > > Gary Handman > Director > Media Resources Center > Moffitt Library > UC Berkeley > > 510-643-8566 > ghand...@library.berkeley.edu > http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC > > "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." > --Francois Truffaut > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, > preservation, and us
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
One last thing. I have mentioned this before but for whatever it is worth there are a lot of filmmakers and distributors who sincerely believe there is something called "institutional video" and that schools and libraries must pay more than individuals. I actually have one I am dealing with myself and nothing I do including sending a copy of the copyright law will convince him otherwise, because he was told this by another sales rep and this case it is titles widely available through pretty much any standard wholesaler/ retailer. However the flip side of this is distributors who see their films illegally digitized and streamed by major institutions, academics claiming they can use copies they taped of TV 20 years ago ( and have since transferred to video) and on campus groups ( often including academics) that do in fact show films and claim that because it is on a campus it is "educational" and they don't have to pay and institutions buying copies of "rare" films from China or traderbobs web site. I appreciate you guys so much as I know you try your best to keep things both legal and fair, but alas not everyone does. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Deg Farrelly wrote: > Sharing with the Videolib list an email from a video distributor, and my > internal response to the Collection Development office for use in replying > to the original message. (Snipped to remove some elements that are > institutionally specific) > > > > > That said, the author of this email is incorrect in his assertion. > > I assume, as we often do, this title was purchased through Amazon.com, > where it is currently listed as being in stock and sold for $13.50 > > If so, our copy is a legally acquired copy, and governed by the rule of > first sale, which allows a library to loan or otherwise use a copy. > > Additionally, US Copyright law specifically exempts us from needing public > performance rights to use a legally acquired video in classes. > > See: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#110 > > When a video is sold through other markets, the distributor cannot place a > requirement on us to acquire PPR, or pay the higher price. Were the > distributor the sole distributor, they could refuse to sell us the home > video copy and insist that we pay $250. But as we (I assume) purchased > through Amazon, they cannot make that claim. > > -deg > > -- > deg farrelly, Full Librarian > Mail Code 1006 > Arizona State University > P.O. Box 871006 > Tempe, AZ 85287 > Phone: 480.965.1403 > Email: deg.farre...@asu.edu > > > > -Original Message- > > > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:16 AM > > > > > I am writing on behalf of Roy Germano Films LLC, the copyright holder of > a > > film you carry in your library called THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION. > > According to our records, the DVD copy of THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION > that > > you have on your shelves is licensed for home use only (retail price: > $20). > > To carry this film in your library, you must purchase a DVD that has been > > licensed for use in college/university libraries (retail price: $250). > > > > DVDs licensed for college/university use are sold exclusively on our > website > > -- > > http://www.TheOtherSideOfImmigration.com > > > > On our website, you will notice a link on the upper-righthand side of the > > website to purchase "DVDs Licensed for Colleges/Universities". Please > click > > that link to enter our secure online store and make your purchase. > > > > We hope you will attend to this matter as soon as possible. Please feel > free > > to contact me at this address if you should have any questions, believe > our > > records are incorrect, or would like to arrange to make your purchase > with > > our distributor by phone or email. > > > > Sincerely, > > Roy Germano, Ph.D. > > Founder/CEO, Roy Germano Films LLC > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and > distributors. > -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
Jessica said: One last thing. I have mentioned this before but for whatever it is worth there are a lot of filmmakers and distributors who sincerely believe there is something called "institutional video" and that schools and libraries must pay more than individuals. I actually have one I am dealing with myself and nothing I do including sending a copy of the copyright law will convince him otherwise, because he was told this by another sales rep and this case it is titles widely available through pretty much any standard wholesaler/ retailer. Susan: I think this is sometimes true. A few months ago, I had a similar experience with someone pretty new to the film distribution world. I ordered a copy of a DVD the very first moment I could get my hands on it, and at that time, what was available was a $30 home-use DVD. I didn't really need PPR and so I didn't worry about it, just bought it. A few MONTHS later, I received an email from someone at the company, which contained an invoice for the "institutional" price, along with commentary similar to what a number of you received in this case. I ended up having a bit of an email exchange and then a very nice phone conversation with the woman, followed by more emails, in which I explained why I didn't think she really had a leg to stand on and in which we discussed tiered pricing, PPR, secondary sellers such as Amazon & Midwest Tape, etc. I had fallen in love with the film [Pelada, btw] and had decided I was willing to pay the difference between the home use and the institutional simply because I supported what these young folks were doing with their project, but I also 'warned' her that she had better be prepared for others she was contacting to NOT be as friendly NOR as willing to pay the cost difference. She had really not been very informed about this stuff and was quite happy to discuss it. I honestly don't know how much trouble she eventually ran into with others. Now, to throw in another wrinkle. When I bought, it was available only from the filmmakers (who really should've had home use & institutional sales prepared to go simultaneously). To my knowledge, the home use was never available through any secondary source. So let's say they had done it right and, from the beginning, had had tiered pricing and were the exclusive distributor. What happens once *aftermarket* sellers begin offering up copies through a site like Amazon? It isn't Amazon directly selling it. Anyone care to take that one on in terms of institutional obligations?? Susan VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
Susan The seller can either control it completely in which case there is no aftermarket or they choose to allow secondary sellers in which case they not maintain the tiered pricing. Most of the folks I work with are currently only selling to institutions. The soonest they would even think of a retail version is 18 monthts to two years and even them no certainty. Basically they simply can't afford to sell the home market though there would be some interest in their films. Selling 200 copies and getting back $15-$20 per copy would never cover the expenses and they made some really good films. Films where the majority of audience/use is academic are best sticking to institutional only sales. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Susan Albrecht wrote: > Jessica said: > > One last thing. I have mentioned this before but for whatever it is worth > there are a lot of filmmakers and distributors who sincerely believe there > is something called "institutional video" and that schools and libraries > must pay more than individuals. I actually have one I am dealing with myself > and nothing I do including sending a copy of the copyright law will convince > him otherwise, because he was told this by another sales rep and this case > it is titles widely available through pretty much any standard wholesaler/ > retailer. > > > > > > Susan: > I think this is sometimes true. A few months ago, I had a similar > experience with someone pretty new to the film distribution world. I > ordered a copy of a DVD the very first moment I could get my hands on it, > and at that time, what was available was a $30 home-use DVD. I didn’t > really need PPR and so I didn’t worry about it, just bought it. A few > MONTHS later, I received an email from someone at the company, which > contained an invoice for the “institutional” price, along with commentary > similar to what a number of you received in this case. > > > > I ended up having a bit of an email exchange and then a very nice phone > conversation with the woman, followed by more emails, in which I explained > why I didn’t think she really had a leg to stand on and in which we > discussed tiered pricing, PPR, secondary sellers such as Amazon & Midwest > Tape, etc. I had fallen in love with the film [*Pelada*, btw] and had > decided I was willing to pay the difference between the home use and the > institutional simply because I supported what these young folks were doing > with their project, but I also ‘warned’ her that she had better be prepared > for others she was contacting to NOT be as friendly NOR as willing to pay > the cost difference. She had really *not *been very informed about this > stuff and was quite happy to discuss it. I honestly don’t know how much > trouble she eventually ran into with others. > > > > Now, to throw in another wrinkle. When I bought, it was available only > from the filmmakers (who really should’ve had home use & institutional sales > prepared to go simultaneously). To my knowledge, the home use was never > available through any secondary source. So let’s say they had done it > right and, from the beginning, had had tiered pricing and were the exclusive > distributor. What happens once **aftermarket** sellers begin offering up > copies through a site like Amazon? It isn’t Amazon directly selling it. > Anyone > care to take that one on in terms of institutional obligations?? > > > > Susan > > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and > distributors. > > -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
For the record, we got this email too and our legal counsel recommended saying simply that we purchased our copy legally and we abide by the copyright law. His initial reaction was to recommend ignoring it altogether. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Deg Farrelly wrote: > Sharing with the Videolib list an email from a video distributor, and my > internal response to the Collection Development office for use in replying to > the original message. (Snipped to remove some elements that are > institutionally specific) > > > > > That said, the author of this email is incorrect in his assertion. > > I assume, as we often do, this title was purchased through Amazon.com, where > it is currently listed as being in stock and sold for $13.50 > > If so, our copy is a legally acquired copy, and governed by the rule of first > sale, which allows a library to loan or otherwise use a copy. > > Additionally, US Copyright law specifically exempts us from needing public > performance rights to use a legally acquired video in classes. > > See: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#110 > > When a video is sold through other markets, the distributor cannot place a > requirement on us to acquire PPR, or pay the higher price. Were the > distributor the sole distributor, they could refuse to sell us the home video > copy and insist that we pay $250. But as we (I assume) purchased through > Amazon, they cannot make that claim. > > -deg > > -- > deg farrelly, Full Librarian > Mail Code 1006 > Arizona State University > P.O. Box 871006 > Tempe, AZ 85287 > Phone: 480.965.1403 > Email: deg.farre...@asu.edu > > >> -Original Message- > >> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:16 AM > >> >> I am writing on behalf of Roy Germano Films LLC, the copyright holder of a >> film you carry in your library called THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION. >> According to our records, the DVD copy of THE OTHER SIDE OF IMMIGRATION that >> you have on your shelves is licensed for home use only (retail price: $20). >> To carry this film in your library, you must purchase a DVD that has been >> licensed for use in college/university libraries (retail price: $250). >> >> DVDs licensed for college/university use are sold exclusively on our website >> -- >> http://www.TheOtherSideOfImmigration.com >> >> On our website, you will notice a link on the upper-righthand side of the >> website to purchase "DVDs Licensed for Colleges/Universities". Please click >> that link to enter our secure online store and make your purchase. >> >> We hope you will attend to this matter as soon as possible. Please feel free >> to contact me at this address if you should have any questions, believe our >> records are incorrect, or would like to arrange to make your purchase with >> our distributor by phone or email. >> >> Sincerely, >> Roy Germano, Ph.D. >> Founder/CEO, Roy Germano Films LLC > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and > distributors. > -- Chris Lewis Media Librarian American University Library 202.885.3257 For latest Media Services News visit our blog at http://aulibmedia.blogspot.com Please think twice before printing this e-mail. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
I don't think I was clear in my use of the word aftermarket. It's NOT the original film distributor selling copies through amazon, and it's not Amazon selling. It's 'used' dealers selling through amazon. I didn't check in this specific case, but just like with 'used' dealers of books selling through amazon's aftermarket site, sometimes the copies are listed as brand new, factory sealed. So that's my question. Or are you saying that if anyone is selling a DVD through amazon as an aftermarket dealer, they must have gotten the original distributor's permission? Susan From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] on behalf of Jessica Rosner [jessicapros...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 4:01 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video Susan The seller can either control it completely in which case there is no aftermarket or they choose to allow secondary sellers in which case they not maintain the tiered pricing. Most of the folks I work with are currently only selling to institutions. The soonest they would even think of a retail version is 18 monthts to two years and even them no certainty. Basically they simply can't afford to sell the home market though there would be some interest in their films. Selling 200 copies and getting back $15-$20 per copy would never cover the expenses and they made some really good films. Films where the majority of audience/use is academic are best sticking to institutional only sales. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Susan Albrecht mailto:albre...@wabash.edu>> wrote: Jessica said: One last thing. I have mentioned this before but for whatever it is worth there are a lot of filmmakers and distributors who sincerely believe there is something called "institutional video" and that schools and libraries must pay more than individuals. I actually have one I am dealing with myself and nothing I do including sending a copy of the copyright law will convince him otherwise, because he was told this by another sales rep and this case it is titles widely available through pretty much any standard wholesaler/ retailer. Susan: I think this is sometimes true. A few months ago, I had a similar experience with someone pretty new to the film distribution world. I ordered a copy of a DVD the very first moment I could get my hands on it, and at that time, what was available was a $30 home-use DVD. I didn’t really need PPR and so I didn’t worry about it, just bought it. A few MONTHS later, I received an email from someone at the company, which contained an invoice for the “institutional” price, along with commentary similar to what a number of you received in this case. I ended up having a bit of an email exchange and then a very nice phone conversation with the woman, followed by more emails, in which I explained why I didn’t think she really had a leg to stand on and in which we discussed tiered pricing, PPR, secondary sellers such as Amazon & Midwest Tape, etc. I had fallen in love with the film [Pelada, btw] and had decided I was willing to pay the difference between the home use and the institutional simply because I supported what these young folks were doing with their project, but I also ‘warned’ her that she had better be prepared for others she was contacting to NOT be as friendly NOR as willing to pay the cost difference. She had really not been very informed about this stuff and was quite happy to discuss it. I honestly don’t know how much trouble she eventually ran into with others. Now, to throw in another wrinkle. When I bought, it was available only from the filmmakers (who really should’ve had home use & institutional sales prepared to go simultaneously). To my knowledge, the home use was never available through any secondary source. So let’s say they had done it right and, from the beginning, had had tiered pricing and were the exclusive distributor. What happens once *aftermarket* sellers begin offering up copies through a site like Amazon? It isn’t Amazon directly selling it. Anyone care to take that one on in terms of institutional obligations?? Susan VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com<mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
OK I am totally confused. Did the original seller/owner sell home use copies and was this one supposedly "used". The question would be if the seller had literally signed off ( as in the proverbial I agree to these terms) when they bought it, in that case the original company could take action against them and have some reasonable claim that it was not a legal copy, though few places do that. The mystery is where did the copy come from and under what terms. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Susan Albrecht wrote: > I don't think I was clear in my use of the word aftermarket. It's NOT the > original film distributor selling copies through amazon, and it's not Amazon > selling. It's 'used' dealers selling through amazon. I didn't check in this > specific case, but just like with 'used' dealers of books selling through > amazon's aftermarket site, sometimes the copies are listed as brand new, > factory sealed. So that's my question. Or are you saying that if anyone is > selling a DVD through amazon as an aftermarket dealer, they must have gotten > the original distributor's permission? > > Susan > > > From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [ > videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] on behalf of Jessica Rosner [ > jessicapros...@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 4:01 PM > To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu > Subject: Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of > institutionally licensed video > > Susan > The seller can either control it completely in which case there is no > aftermarket or they choose to allow secondary sellers in which case they not > maintain the tiered pricing. Most of the folks I work with are currently > only selling to institutions. The soonest they would even think of a retail > version is 18 monthts to two years and even them no certainty. Basically > they simply can't afford to sell the home market though there would be some > interest in their films. Selling 200 copies and getting back $15-$20 per > copy would never cover the expenses and they made some really good films. > Films where the majority of audience/use is academic are best sticking to > institutional only sales. > > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Susan Albrecht <mailto:albre...@wabash.edu>> wrote: > Jessica said: > One last thing. I have mentioned this before but for whatever it is worth > there are a lot of filmmakers and distributors who sincerely believe there > is something called "institutional video" and that schools and libraries > must pay more than individuals. I actually have one I am dealing with myself > and nothing I do including sending a copy of the copyright law will convince > him otherwise, because he was told this by another sales rep and this case > it is titles widely available through pretty much any standard wholesaler/ > retailer. > > > Susan: > I think this is sometimes true. A few months ago, I had a similar > experience with someone pretty new to the film distribution world. I > ordered a copy of a DVD the very first moment I could get my hands on it, > and at that time, what was available was a $30 home-use DVD. I didn’t > really need PPR and so I didn’t worry about it, just bought it. A few > MONTHS later, I received an email from someone at the company, which > contained an invoice for the “institutional” price, along with commentary > similar to what a number of you received in this case. > > I ended up having a bit of an email exchange and then a very nice phone > conversation with the woman, followed by more emails, in which I explained > why I didn’t think she really had a leg to stand on and in which we > discussed tiered pricing, PPR, secondary sellers such as Amazon & Midwest > Tape, etc. I had fallen in love with the film [Pelada, btw] and had decided > I was willing to pay the difference between the home use and the > institutional simply because I supported what these young folks were doing > with their project, but I also ‘warned’ her that she had better be prepared > for others she was contacting to NOT be as friendly NOR as willing to pay > the cost difference. She had really not been very informed about this stuff > and was quite happy to discuss it. I honestly don’t know how much trouble > she eventually ran into with others. > > Now, to throw in another wrinkle. When I bought, it was available only > from the filmmakers (who really should’ve had home use & institutional sales > prepared to go simultaneously). To my knowledge, the home use was never > available through any secondary source. So let’s say they had done it right > and, from the beginning, had had tiered pricing and were the
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
Jessica makes an important point. Since the provenance of the copy (even if it's new and sealed) is unknown when you sell from a Marketplace seller on Amazon (did they get it from the distributor or from the back of a truck that crashed in their neighborhood?) you can't be sure it's a "legally acquired" copy and that therefore first-sale or other agreement applies. We are very restrictive of use when we are forced to acquire an out-of-print title from a MP seller for an instructor and presume no agreement has been passed on. - - Roger Brown Manager UCLA Instructional Media Collections & Services 46 Powell Library Los Angeles, CA 90095-1517 office: 310-206-1248 fax: 310-206-5392 rbr...@oid.ucla.edu > > >-- > >Message: 4 >Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 18:03:04 -0400 >From: Jessica Rosner >Subject: Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of >institutionally licensed video >To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >OK I am totally confused. Did the original seller/owner sell home use >copies >and was this one supposedly "used". The question would be >if the seller had literally signed off ( as in the proverbial I agree to >these terms) when they bought it, in that case the original company could >take action against them and have some reasonable claim that it was not a >legal copy, though few places do that. > >The mystery is where did the copy come from and under what terms. > >On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Susan Albrecht >wrote: > >> I don't think I was clear in my use of the word aftermarket. It's NOT >>the >> original film distributor selling copies through amazon, and it's not >>Amazon >> selling. It's 'used' dealers selling through amazon. I didn't check in >>this >> specific case, but just like with 'used' dealers of books selling >>through >> amazon's aftermarket site, sometimes the copies are listed as brand new, >> factory sealed. So that's my question. Or are you saying that if anyone >>is >> selling a DVD through amazon as an aftermarket dealer, they must have >>gotten >> the original distributor's permission? >> >> Susan VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
Yeah...this is true, but we're really talking mostly here about cases in which a legit vendor is selling via amazon marketplace: i.e., cases in which fulfillment is by the distributor rather than amazon. Those are the cases in which the tiered pricing stuff usually occurs. Gary > Jessica makes an important point. Since the provenance of the copy (even > if it's new and sealed) is unknown when you sell from a Marketplace seller > on Amazon (did they get it from the distributor or from the back of a > truck that crashed in their neighborhood?) you can't be sure it's a > "legally acquired" copy and that therefore first-sale or other agreement > applies. > > We are very restrictive of use when we are forced to acquire an > out-of-print title from a MP seller for an instructor and presume no > agreement has been passed on. > > - - > Roger Brown > Manager > UCLA Instructional Media Collections & Services > 46 Powell Library > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1517 > office: 310-206-1248 > fax: 310-206-5392 > rbr...@oid.ucla.edu > >> >> >>------ >> >>Message: 4 >>Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 18:03:04 -0400 >>From: Jessica Rosner >>Subject: Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of >>institutionally licensed video >>To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu >>Message-ID: >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >>OK I am totally confused. Did the original seller/owner sell home use >>copies >>and was this one supposedly "used". The question would be >>if the seller had literally signed off ( as in the proverbial I agree to >>these terms) when they bought it, in that case the original company could >>take action against them and have some reasonable claim that it was not a >>legal copy, though few places do that. >> >>The mystery is where did the copy come from and under what terms. >> >>On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Susan Albrecht >>wrote: >> >>> I don't think I was clear in my use of the word aftermarket. It's NOT >>>the >>> original film distributor selling copies through amazon, and it's not >>>Amazon >>> selling. It's 'used' dealers selling through amazon. I didn't check in >>>this >>> specific case, but just like with 'used' dealers of books selling >>>through >>> amazon's aftermarket site, sometimes the copies are listed as brand >>> new, >>> factory sealed. So that's my question. Or are you saying that if anyone >>>is >>> selling a DVD through amazon as an aftermarket dealer, they must have >>>gotten >>> the original distributor's permission? >>> >>> Susan > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video > producers and distributors. > Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
Now that I'm back at work and can double-check the example I used, it's clear that the original company is involved with selling through Amazon, both new copies and instant streams. So that just puts this back to the same old point of "Once you have chosen to go with additional vendors selling home use copies, you can't insist institutions buy from you and pay a higher price." Not unless they need PPR, anyway. I still wonder about used copies of DVDs, though -- used, but not OP. Is it Amazon's or Barnes & Noble's or Half.com's or eBay's obligation to police their marketplace sellers, to make sure they're not selling used items which are available new only from the original seller? Or is it the original seller's responsibility to watch out for this? Or does the fact that it's a used copy change everything, and libraries have the right to purchase used copies to add to their circulating collection if they so desire? Forgive me if there's obvious stuff here I should be remembering. The coffee is still on its way in Susan From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jessica Rosner Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 6:03 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video OK I am totally confused. Did the original seller/owner sell home use copies and was this one supposedly "used". The question would be if the seller had literally signed off ( as in the proverbial I agree to these terms) when they bought it, in that case the original company could take action against them and have some reasonable claim that it was not a legal copy, though few places do that. The mystery is where did the copy come from and under what terms. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Susan Albrecht mailto:albre...@wabash.edu>> wrote: I don't think I was clear in my use of the word aftermarket. It's NOT the original film distributor selling copies through amazon, and it's not Amazon selling. It's 'used' dealers selling through amazon. I didn't check in this specific case, but just like with 'used' dealers of books selling through amazon's aftermarket site, sometimes the copies are listed as brand new, factory sealed. So that's my question. Or are you saying that if anyone is selling a DVD through amazon as an aftermarket dealer, they must have gotten the original distributor's permission? Susan From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu<mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu> [videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu<mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu>] on behalf of Jessica Rosner [jessicapros...@gmail.com<mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 4:01 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu<mailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video Susan The seller can either control it completely in which case there is no aftermarket or they choose to allow secondary sellers in which case they not maintain the tiered pricing. Most of the folks I work with are currently only selling to institutions. The soonest they would even think of a retail version is 18 monthts to two years and even them no certainty. Basically they simply can't afford to sell the home market though there would be some interest in their films. Selling 200 copies and getting back $15-$20 per copy would never cover the expenses and they made some really good films. Films where the majority of audience/use is academic are best sticking to institutional only sales. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Susan Albrecht mailto:albre...@wabash.edu><mailto:albre...@wabash.edu<mailto:albre...@wabash.edu>>> wrote: Jessica said: One last thing. I have mentioned this before but for whatever it is worth there are a lot of filmmakers and distributors who sincerely believe there is something called "institutional video" and that schools and libraries must pay more than individuals. I actually have one I am dealing with myself and nothing I do including sending a copy of the copyright law will convince him otherwise, because he was told this by another sales rep and this case it is titles widely available through pretty much any standard wholesaler/ retailer. Susan: I think this is sometimes true. A few months ago, I had a similar experience with someone pretty new to the film distribution world. I ordered a copy of a DVD the very first moment I could get my hands on it, and at that time, what was available was a $30 home-use DVD. I didn't really need PPR and so I didn't worry about it, just bought it. A few MONTHS later, I received
Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of institutionally licensed video
There is no obligation on the part of 2nd party seller to do anything regarding the sale of a "restricted" item. In theory the owner could contact them with literal proof that the seller "signed" ( perhaps online) a contract not to resell the item, they might remove it but I find that somewhat far fetched. This of course applies only to a legally obtained copy not an actual bootleg. Realistically I don't see a lot of copies of somewhat specialized mostly non fiction films sold to individuals directly from copyright holders flooding the used market. However it is incumbent on the rights holder who chooses to have multi-tiered pricing including home use to make it very clear at the point of sale and to have some record showing this. On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Susan Albrecht wrote: > Now that I’m back at work and can double-check the example I used, it’s > clear that the original company *is* involved with selling through Amazon, > both new copies and instant streams. So that just puts this back to the > same old point of “Once you have chosen to go with additional vendors > selling home use copies, you can’t insist institutions buy from you and pay > a higher price.” Not unless they need PPR, anyway. > > > > I still wonder about used copies of DVDs, though -- used, but *not* OP. Is > it Amazon’s or Barnes & Noble’s or Half.com’s or eBay’s obligation to police > their marketplace sellers, to make sure they’re not selling used items which > are available new only from the original seller? Or is it the original > seller’s responsibility to watch out for this? Or does the fact that it’s > a used copy change everything, and libraries have the right to purchase used > copies to add to their circulating collection if they so desire? > > > > Forgive me if there’s obvious stuff here I should be remembering. The > coffee is still on its way in…. > > > > Susan > > > > > > *From:* videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto: > videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jessica Rosner > *Sent:* Thursday, May 05, 2011 6:03 PM > > *To:* videolib@lists.berkeley.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of > institutionally licensed video > > > > OK I am totally confused. Did the original seller/owner sell home use > copies and was this one supposedly "used". The question would be > > if the seller had literally signed off ( as in the proverbial I agree to > these terms) when they bought it, in that case the original company could > take action against them and have some reasonable claim that it was not a > legal copy, though few places do that. > > > > The mystery is where did the copy come from and under what terms. > > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Susan Albrecht > wrote: > > I don't think I was clear in my use of the word aftermarket. It's NOT the > original film distributor selling copies through amazon, and it's not Amazon > selling. It's 'used' dealers selling through amazon. I didn't check in this > specific case, but just like with 'used' dealers of books selling through > amazon's aftermarket site, sometimes the copies are listed as brand new, > factory sealed. So that's my question. Or are you saying that if anyone is > selling a DVD through amazon as an aftermarket dealer, they must have gotten > the original distributor's permission? > > Susan > > ________________ > From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [ > videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] on behalf of Jessica Rosner [ > jessicapros...@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 4:01 PM > To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu > Subject: Re: [Videolib] Challenge to using a home video instead of > institutionally licensed video > > > Susan > The seller can either control it completely in which case there is no > aftermarket or they choose to allow secondary sellers in which case they not > maintain the tiered pricing. Most of the folks I work with are currently > only selling to institutions. The soonest they would even think of a retail > version is 18 monthts to two years and even them no certainty. Basically > they simply can't afford to sell the home market though there would be some > interest in their films. Selling 200 copies and getting back $15-$20 per > copy would never cover the expenses and they made some really good films. > Films where the majority of audience/use is academic are best sticking to > institutional only sales. > > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Susan Albrecht <mailto:albre...@wabash.edu>> wrote: > Jessica said: > One last thing. I have mentioned this before but for whatever
