[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Roman Turovsky wrote: There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the "arpetta". It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a "tyorba christalina". Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the V&A a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the V&A catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the "arpetta" - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an "arpetta" (whatever that was). Stuart Unless this means http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg RT This image reminded me of something in Baines' "Musical Instruments". There _is_ an instrument in the V&A (according to Baines) that has the attachment that is shown in Roman's jpg. Perhaps it is the same instrument. But it is much, much later... 1789-92, Rafael Vellejo (V&A; 389-1871): six double courses and a board attached with 20 pegs with 10 double courses of metal strings. Stuart No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2335 - Release Date: 08/30/09 06:36:00 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the "arpetta". It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a "tyorba christalina". Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the V&A a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the V&A catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the "arpetta" - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an "arpetta" (whatever that was). Stuart Unless this means http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Monica Hall wrote: Granata has not clearly indicated in any of his books that he favoured one method of stringing the 5-course guitar over another. It is therefore an open question. I see - I understand what you are saying. There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the "arpetta". It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a "tyorba christalina". Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the V&A a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the V&A catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the "arpetta" - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an "arpetta" (whatever that was). Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
What I am trying to say is that it seems illogical to me to assert that because Granata has included these pieces for an instrument which may have had an extended bass range he must also have specifically intended the music in the book which is for 5-course guitar to be played with octave stringing on both the 4th and 5th courses. The reasoning behind this argument seems to be that because Granata had an instrument with an extended bass range, a guitar which had a more limited compass would have been unacceptable to him. Hope that makes sense. To me there seems to be no obvious connection between the two. We don't know why he wanted an instrument with extended basses - he could have opted for the theorbo if he did. There doesn't seem to be any obvious advantages to having a guitar shaped body rather than a lute shaped one if that was all that was bothering him. Granata has not clearly indicated in any of his books that he favoured one method of stringing the 5-course guitar over another. It is therefore an open question. He may not have had any preferences or he may have experimented with different ways of doing things. The only clue which we have to his preferences is the music itself. But that is equally ambiguous. As far as Granata's chitarra atiorbata is concerned, most people have assumed that it had octave stringing on the 4th and 5th courses because of the information in the Stradivarius papers. If that was so then open basses descending from the low octave on the 5th course seems logical. But we don't know whether Granata's instrument was the same as Stradivarius's. We only have the music to go on - which can work with almost any possible permutation. Hope that is suitable procrustean and opaque. There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the "arpetta". It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a "tyorba christalina". Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica Well!!...Anyway, just a quick point of clarification on Granata. Is it, as you say, totally illogical to suggest that Granata's music calls for octave stringing on the lower courses? Or is it totally illogical to conclude from the available evidence that Granata's music calls for octave stringing on the lower courses? Because you are stating your case with admirable robustness I think it looks like you are saying the former - that it not appropriate to have octave stringing on the lower courses. But generally - I think - you are arguing that the available evidence doesn't warrant specific conclusions and that octave stringing on the lower courses is as likely as partly or fully re-entrant stringing. Sorry, that's a long-winded way of putting it! I mean, do you actually think it's wrong (historically inaccurate) to use octave stringing for some (or all) of Granata's music. I think I'm going through a bad patch of finding ambiguities everywhere, at the moment. There are lots of signs in a road nearby saying 'Road Ahead Closed' and as you drive, you can see all the vehicles ahead, continuing up the road. The sign is right - 'a' road ahead is closed and you can't turn off into it because of roadworks. But, seeing the sign I tried to turn off into the road (that was closed) because I thought the sign meant 'the' road ahead is closed. Same with Granata above, I think! Stuart - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:00 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata I think the point is this: my speculation (and this is all it is - as is the low tuning) that Granata's basses were at the higher octave (like Gallot's) is that the instrument shouldn't be automatically thought of as a sort of archlute or theorbo playing BC and thus requiring a full range of normally occuring bass notes but that it was (like the re-entrant guitar itself I suppose) a sort of special effect instrument. Upper octave basses gives the basses the same level of brightness as an upper octave (part or full) 5th course; it allows basses to ring; and (as with much 18th century lute writing) it frees the left hand to exploit the higher reaches of the fingerboard whilst still providing a bass (allbeit in a high register) - Granata exploits this possibility in a few places such as 1659 pages 111, 113. I think the tho
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Monica Hall wrote: Well - I would like to agree with you wholeheartedly. The reason why I have been pursuing this is because there is this simplistic argument - first put forward by Gary Boye and seized on with alacrity by at least one other person - that because Granata has included these pieces for an instrument which they believe had an extended bass range Granata intended all his guitar music to be played with octave stringing on both the fourth and fifth courses. At one point one point one person seemed about to claim that because the Gallot ms. includes music for guitarre theorbe all the music in that source was intended for double octave stringing too. To me this is totally illogical - and I think that Gary has had second thoughts himself on this. However these instruments were strung they are different instruments and have nothing whatever to do with the 5-course guitar. This is the point which I am most anxious to make. Unfortunately, because ideas like this appear in books supposedly of scholarly status everyone repeats them parrot fashion. The same is true of Bartolotti and his lettere tagliate. It is as if the Pope had spoken ex-cathedra. Having said that I am cautious (I hope) about suggesting that Granata's instrument is just some weirdo instrument of his own because I don't want to be accused of putting forward counter arguments which aren't well supported. In suggesting that Granata's instrument was tuned to a higher pitch than the 5-course I hoped I had achieved a procrustean balence. But perhaps not. Moica Well!!...Anyway, just a quick point of clarification on Granata. Is it, as you say, totally illogical to suggest that Granata's music calls for octave stringing on the lower courses? Or is it totally illogical to conclude from the available evidence that Granata's music calls for octave stringing on the lower courses? Because you are stating your case with admirable robustness I think it looks like you are saying the former - that it not appropriate to have octave stringing on the lower courses. But generally - I think - you are arguing that the available evidence doesn't warrant specific conclusions and that octave stringing on the lower courses is as likely as partly or fully re-entrant stringing. Sorry, that's a long-winded way of putting it! I mean, do you actually think it's wrong (historically inaccurate) to use octave stringing for some (or all) of Granata's music. I think I'm going through a bad patch of finding ambiguities everywhere, at the moment. There are lots of signs in a road nearby saying 'Road Ahead Closed' and as you drive, you can see all the vehicles ahead, continuing up the road. The sign is right - 'a' road ahead is closed and you can't turn off into it because of roadworks. But, seeing the sign I tried to turn off into the road (that was closed) because I thought the sign meant 'the' road ahead is closed. Same with Granata above, I think! Stuart - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:00 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata I think the point is this: my speculation (and this is all it is - as is the low tuning) that Granata's basses were at the higher octave (like Gallot's) is that the instrument shouldn't be automatically thought of as a sort of archlute or theorbo playing BC and thus requiring a full range of normally occuring bass notes but that it was (like the re-entrant guitar itself I suppose) a sort of special effect instrument. Upper octave basses gives the basses the same level of brightness as an upper octave (part or full) 5th course; it allows basses to ring; and (as with much 18th century lute writing) it frees the left hand to exploit the higher reaches of the fingerboard whilst still providing a bass (allbeit in a high register) - Granata exploits this possibility in a few places such as 1659 pages 111, 113. I think the thought that since all the notes are available on an ordinary 5 course guitar (provided of course the 5th course has at least one lower octave string) then why have another instrument is similar to suggesting that since all the notes of an 11 course 'baroque' lute in, say, the Dm tuning can be played on a 10 course lute in the old tuning, why bother having such an instrument? It is, of course, to do with different sonorities and other playing possibilities. Many similar examples are possible... As I've said before Monica, to be quite frank I simply don't know, but I do think there's at least as good a case for high basses as low in Granata's music for this instrument even without considering the sort of sound from a gut low ,A of short string length and I think we need to face such choices. From what you say I think this is largely your position as well Martyn --- On Sat
